Micro 715: Friendly Neighbor 6 (Game Over)

[BTD6_maker]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald
VOTE: Gamma Emerald
VOTE: Gamma Emerald

I counterclaim Triplevoter.

[BTD6_maker]

Vanilla Town
Yay I forecast a town loss

Is Gamma's claim AI?

Hammers in RVS do happen, though very occasionally. For example, see Micro 671. Unless someone was actively claiming intent, though, I doubt there is any need to claim at all. Town would probably be more likely to do so than scum, though, as Town may fear a scum quickhammer whereas scum are unlikely to suspect a Town quickhamnmer.

Gamma Emerald is currently a nullTown read for me at the moment.

[BTD6_maker]

He's not giving any strong opinions.

But he's not giving a reason not to have a strong opinion either; he's just making no effort to read into it.

Is anyone expected to have strong opinions at this stage? This is essentially just after RVS. In RVS, people generally have no opinions. At this stage, people may have some opinions or not, but if so they are generally expected to have weak opinions. Indeed, if someone had a strong opinion I would see that as unusual and ask them to explain just how they can have such strong opinions on Page 3. MarioManiac does not need to justify the lack of a strong opinion.

Do you have any strong opinions on MarioManiac? If so, give reasoning.

[BTD6_maker]

@Flubbernugget I'm honestly not following your reasoning for keeping your vote on Gamma. At the moment I see you as the scummiest so I'm putting my vote on you for now.

VOTE: Flubbernugget

This is indeed justification (you would of course vote who you think is scummiest) but why? Is the fact that you cannot understand why Flubbernugget keeps their vote on Gamma your only reason? If you have other reasons, please explain.

[BTD6_maker]

I also don't feel that this was addressed well enough. My point was that both towngamma and scumgamma could have reacted defensively to the possibility of being hammered and reacting that way isn't necessarily AI. I don't see how his response addresses that, unless I'm missing something.

Being over defensive is a scum tell. There is not a doubt in my mind that nobody town would have hammered, and if scum hammered town would have been all over them D2.

Town sees this

Scum does not

Micro 671

Town can accidentally hammer. If someone hammers, they are not necessarily scum. There is a definite possibility of a quickhammer.

That said, it is a small probability.

Town have a reason to be defensive, just as scum do. If a Townie is lynched, that is a guaranteed mislynch. Town want to do everything possible to prevent their own lynch, as everyone else (barring, for instance, Cop clears) has a chance of flipping scum. Town still want to lynch scum, but to them any lynch is better than a scum lynch. Are there reasons why defensiveness is a scumtell?

[BTD6_maker]

VOTE: Danny

Why did you vote Danny?

I couldn't see anything in your ISO pointing to Dany. Do you have any reasoning for your vote? All you have is this:

Because of his votes on people without reasons

Kinda like your vote?

No...

Why do you think voting without reasons is scummy?

This is not what's being said

Here you are referring to MarioManiac, in that "voting without reasons is scummy" is not what's being said by Dany. While I agree that voting without reasons is scummy, I don't see why that would be indicative of Danyboy specifically being scum. This post does not give that impression.

Also looking at his more recent posts S_S may join my Exclusive Townclub Of Happy Friends. {Raya, me, S_S, Dan} are the current members with Draynth, Flubber and Gamma being a potential candidates.
Alchemist and BTD6 are more likely to be scum. To be honest, I'm starting to doubt my Alchemist read, which makes me
BTD6 hasn't posted much, so it's hard to get a read on them. To be honest, I think my point about not following up on questions is far more applicable to Maker than to Alchemist. What he chooses to analyse is somewhat arbitrary, and I'm not seeing him coming to any conclusions or deciding who is town or scum here.

What conclusions do you expect? At this point, anyone could be Town or scum. I have weak reads, but not much more. What I choose to analyse is arbitrary because I am rather busy and cannot analyse every post in depth.

Currently, you and Flubbernugget are weak scum reads while Gamma and Raya are weak Town. Most others are near nullish.

[BTD6_maker]

like, most of your posts are long and analyzing, but even though I see analysis, I don't see how it affects your reads. If you could post something like "you and Flubbernugget are weak scum reads while Gamma and Raya are weak Town. Most others are near nullish.", I think that would help with trying to read you.
(Also, I'm pretty much confirmed town. )

I was referring to your play rather than your claim.

You are near-confTown from your claim, but I got a weak scumread from your actual play.

[BTD6_maker]

Since 90 I have been trying to get more info, but when people start throwing out naked votes, and the other posts are people asking for reasons for those votes, it's pretty damn hard to get the reads I need. I may be the most vocal about it but I'm pretty sure a lot of others were tired of the lack of reasoning. Hard evidence of what actual reasons can do for the game state is right here in our conversation. We've added as much content this afternoon as has been added in the past 2 days, and it's because you gave reasons that can actually be discussed.

I see this as being slightly Town-motivated.

It seems like the Town reaction to want reasons behind a vote. Town want to know why someone is more likely scum, and need reasons from others who think someone is scum. Scum do not care about reasons. They just want any wagon on a Townie (most of the time).

Scum may not have pro-Town reasons for their vote. They may just be voting because they want to get that mislynch (of course, they won't admit to this). In this case, they will not be able to give pro-Town reasoning for their vote or, when pushed to give it, the reasoning is flimsy. Town should always have reasoning for their votes (obviously, excluding RVS). Town who vote without any reasons are playing anti-Town. If Town have reasons, they should always be able to give them. I can understand this thought process coming from Town.

I have a weak Townread on Alchemist.

[BTD6_maker]

VOTE: Gamma
I honestly don't know where to start here so I'll start on the Mario wagon.

Looking back through Something Smart's posts I don't think this is genuine. He's been pointing out things he finds suspicious in his earlier posts, so I don't see how he could come in with no idea of where to start. Especially when you consider that his vote went on someone he already voiced suspicion on, it seems more like he wanted to place a vote with the safe and easy reason that the person was on the claimed Friendly Neighbor's wagon.

Townies do suspicious things all the time (and my vote is on one of the players I pointed out as being suspicious so I don't know what you expected).

Speaking of suspicious, I see you suspecting me using the safe and easy reason of suspecting me for using the safe and easy reason of having voted the claimed FN to suspect Gamma. (That was supposed to sound clever but instead it just sounds convoluted.)

Dany, who's scum?

I am awaiting the answer to this question. People who are not iDanyBoy may also answer it.

Something_Smart his vote seems random and it doesn't feel like his looking for scum

On the contrary I'm looking for scum because I don't think I've found scum yet.

Turning this question around, what is the scum motivation behind such a vote?

Your reasoning doesn't seem to work. Why would scum have more of a motivation to vote someone who later happened to be the FN? If someone was wrong on one vote that doesn't make them more likely to be scum by any more than a negligible amount.

You do have some other reasoning on Gamma though.

Gamma goes from talking seriously about improving his town performance to being completely sarcastic and uninhibited, and it makes 20 feel not real. (Like he's trying to fake town emotion)

I didn't say I

wanted to improve

, I said I was waiting until I had

a good town game

to do something. I feel that my current townplay is actually not half bad.

Detail irrelevant to my point. Can you talk a bit about your train of thought in those two posts?

Exactly how was Gamma's posting sarcastic and uninhibited? It seemed to be mostly a series of genuine questions (plus, at one point, talking about the difference between reasoning and justification).

[BTD6_maker]

Phone posting here.

VOTE: Something Smart

You have shown in the past that you do indeed have some reasoning, yet you seem to simply sheep MM. If you agree with MM's case, you should be able to give reasons why apart from simply "MM is confTown", as that doesn't make their reads more likely to be correct.

Why are you sheeping when you have reads of your own?

[BTD6_maker]

honestly
i get what s_s is saying about btd6 i really do and it's similar to what i saw with dany
it's one thing to sheep
it's entirely another to wait until a solid argument is made to have scumreads, and then present that argument as your own
VOTE: BTD6_maker

I made the same argument. This is because I agree with it and would have come up with it regardless of whether or not it is mentioned. It is not waiting until an argument is made and then presenting it as my own.

Other people have made that argument. That does not mean that I cannot state why I am voting SS if my reasons are the same.

[BTD6_maker]

You want me to think for myself? Fine.
VOTE: BTD6_maker
Derides me for sheeping while in the same post copying reasoning that has been used by multiple other people to vote me.

Furthermore, I'm seeing a pattern. People are voting me because they don't like how I'm playing. They're saying things like "you should be acting on your own reads" and "why are you following Mario just because he's conftown" which are addressing me as if I am town playing suboptimally. Which I am, but I don't care because in the past I have had a problem with tunneling in on small things and disrupting the game.

So I'm trying to avoid that by not voting things that are, like I said, more likely noise than signal. And the rate of scum lynches day 1, especially where scum doesn't bus, should corroborate this.

Back to the point at hand, people are voting me for what they think would be bad play coming from town, not what they think would come from scum. I specifically mentioned that what I did I don't like to do in most scenarios but this one is extenuating circumstances. The exception to that is Alchemist and that's one of the reasons I'm townreading him.

Sheeping is different from "copying reasoning" (which is misrep). I did not copy their reasoning. I merely came up with the same reasoning that they did. That is agreeing, not sheeping.

[BTD6_maker]

Phone posting here.

VOTE: Something Smart

You have shown in the past that you do indeed have some reasoning, yet you seem to simply sheep MM. If you agree with MM's case, you should be able to give reasons why apart from simply "MM is confTown", as that doesn't make their reads more likely to be correct.

Why are you sheeping when you have reads of your own?

if you realised this wasn't original
a) why were you presenting it as such
b) you were reading the thread enough to give thoughts on other players, etc.
it feels like you are posting just so vote people and try to get them lynched rather than actually evaluating

Why was I presenting it as such? Because I came up with this reasoning myself. Other people also did. I did not copy them. This is misrep, claiming that my post was made based on other's posts.

[BTD6_maker]

"Why are you sheeping when you have reads of your own?"
why are you asking questions based on unoriginal ideas

My ideas were not unoriginal. They were independent.

[BTD6_maker]

@BTD, is there a reason you've ignored all my previous attempts to engage you?

He seems to be in a posting mood so maybe he'll answer this time.

Which attempts? I don't see you engaging me since last time you mentioned.

[BTD6_maker]

"Why are you sheeping when you have reads of your own?"
why are you asking questions based on unoriginal ideas

My ideas were not unoriginal. They were independent.

Did you know that other people had said the same thing when you posted that?

I was aware that other people had made the argument. That does not make a difference.

[BTD6_maker]

I was aware that you had answered multiple times. I considered your answers unsatisfactory at that point, and my post shows that.

After I had asked, you did give some reasoning about why MM is more likely to have correct reads than a random player. This point does make sense (although it is somewhat weak; MM's reads aren't that much better than a random player).

You didn't give any reasoning on why MM's reads are more accurate than your own. You are confirmed Town to yourself, so you can trust your reads. If you trust MM's reads more than yourself, you need reasoning for why you agree with those reads specifically.

Suppose MM had the exact opposite reads from their actual reads. Would you still trust them because they are confTown? If not, what makes you trust the reads as they are currently?

[BTD6_maker]

Since 90 I have been trying to get more info, but when people start throwing out naked votes, and the other posts are people asking for reasons for those votes, it's pretty damn hard to get the reads I need. I may be the most vocal about it but I'm pretty sure a lot of others were tired of the lack of reasoning. Hard evidence of what actual reasons can do for the game state is right here in our conversation. We've added as much content this afternoon as has been added in the past 2 days, and it's because you gave reasons that can actually be discussed.

I see this as being slightly Town-motivated.

It seems like the Town reaction to want reasons behind a vote. Town want to know why someone is more likely scum, and need reasons from others who think someone is scum. Scum do not care about reasons. They just want any wagon on a Townie (most of the time).

Scum may not have pro-Town reasons for their vote. They may just be voting because they want to get that mislynch (of course, they won't admit to this). In this case, they will not be able to give pro-Town reasoning for their vote or, when pushed to give it, the reasoning is flimsy. Town should always have reasoning for their votes (obviously, excluding RVS). Town who vote without any reasons are playing anti-Town. If Town have reasons, they should always be able to give them. I can understand this thought process coming from Town.

I have a weak Townread on Alchemist.

So now that you're Townreading me are you going to start answering questions I ask you? I don't like being ignored.

This was that last time. What questions were you planning on asking me? I don't see any since then.

[BTD6_maker]

It was mostly just that there were other things to respond to at the time. When you made the post I quoted, I didn't see anything specific you wanted me to answer.

[BTD6_maker]

Spoilered each point since there's lots of big(ish) quotes and it would get very messy and hard to read without them

Spoiler:

Without stating. It's in towns best interest to explain your reasoning thats why I think it's scummy.

But you didn't state reasons either. I definitely agree it's in Town's best interests to state reasoning but I disagree on it being scummy. Even though they shouldn't, Town make naked votes pretty frequently - far too often to be able to just slap scumreads on everyone who does it. I mean, even you did it. If you're Town, you already have solid evidence that Town does it.

I didn't give a reason because I wanted to see if he would say anything about my lack of reason.

'I'm scumreading this person for doing X, but I'm going to do X to see if they scumread me for it'

- I'm sorry but I fail to see how this is helpful in the slightest, I think you're just full of crap here and are trying to cover your tracks.

Spoiler:

Without stating. It's in towns best interest to explain your reasoning thats why I think it's scummy.

Not in town's best interest does not equal scummy.

Not to mention that you turned around and gave a reason in 173 why withholding reasons might be in town's interest.

Your right, It's not scummy my bad UNVOTE:

At the time you thought it was scummy (I know you don't anymore, that's not my point) so why

did

you do the exact same thing?

I thought it was different when I was doing it.

Since your voting me you must think I'm scummier than GE, why is that?

I think the bolded speaks for itself, seems ridiculous to me

Spoiler:

Dany, who's scum?

I am awaiting the answer to this question. People who are not iDanyBoy may also answer it.

Something_Smart his vote seems random and it doesn't feel like his looking for scum

Ok cool, you gave some reasons. Why not vote for him now then? You weren't voting anyone else at this point. This feels like you're afraid to actually push forward with your 'read' which is a scummy thing to do.

ok I'm feeling more town on Alchemist and I don't like to sheep but I'm pretty sure this is like the perfect time to sheep so
VOTE: iDanyBoy

You vote me for sheeping while sheeping?
I agree with a lot of what Alchemist is posting (280) and didn't have much to add onto that, this is also making me see him as a townie.

What it is is I can't lock onto any scumreads and I feel useless.

I'd like to know what changed your vote from Alchemist to me?

Because Mario seemed like an easy lynch and easy lynches that are town are prime places for scum to vote, especially when the overall state of the game is slow.

What makes you think he was an easy lynch? He only had two votes on him at that time and I unvoted shortly after.

VOTE: SS
He switches his votes from people to people with very little reasoning and his responses' to Alchemist seem like scum.

You eventually voted him here, but this was 2 days and ~50 posts later.

Spoiler:

Town - GE , Alchemist
Scum - BTD-6, SS(stronger scumread)

It bothers me that you gave no reasoning for any of these (with the exception of SS in your iso)

Spoiler:

Town - GE , Alchemist
Scum - BTD-6, SS(stronger scumread)

What's your reason for BTD? I don't see anything about him in your ISO.

like a lot what bothers me so much is that you care about making your argument independently and making sure everyone knows it's independent etc.
i feel like you're more about presentation than substance at this point

This, I don't see him scum hunting and when he doesn't feel authentic.

Why did you feel the need to specifically quote Mario here just to make your point?

@Spoiler 3 I didn't find him scummy enough to vote at 282 but by 321 I felt my read was strong enough for a vote.

@Spoiler 4 I have given reasoning for 3 of them apart from BTD-6 already.

@Spoiler 5

Because that's my biggest concern with him and didn't want to present his reasoning as my own when I'm accusing BTD-6 of doing the same.

I accept the first 2 points you made.[/b]

The 3rd is blatantly contradicting your earlier thought process. You scumread MM for voting without a reason, you then voted him without stating any reasoning and later said this:

I didn't give a reason because I wanted to see if he would say anything about my lack of reason.

VOTE: iDannyBoy

I mostly agree with this. Dany has been rather inconsistent. For the first point, I can see why they think that not giving reasoning is scummy but if they believe that, they should agree. They believe that stating reasons is pro-Town therefore it will benefit Town if they state reasons therefore they should state reasons. Their justification for not stating reasons does not make sense. Reaction tests are also generally ineffective and if, in doing so, you contradict something you claim to believe, it can easily be picked up on.

The second quote exemplifies this. If you have certain standards, you are expected to follow them. It is not different if you do something.

The third and fourth quotes are fine. It is possible for Townies to have gut reads that you cannot pin down reasons for. However, when your read is strong enough to warrant a vote, reasoning is expected.

Currently, I scumread Dany as well as SS.

[BTD6_maker]

Sorry about that.

Like, the beginning of time?
(Actually 227)

Honestly I'm done cutting BTD6 slack. His play regarding the flashwagon on me was so weak and it looks like he just won another scumgame where he was obvscum and people ignored him. And I agree with people being spooked by the apparent consensus on iDanyboy.
VOTE: BTD6

@mod I will be V/LA this weekend

, hopefully I'll be able to post a little but not sure

This looks weak. Can you justify why you think my response to the flashwagon on you was more likely to be done by scum than by Town?

Also, there is an apparent consensus on Dany. Why do you think scum are more likely to agree with the consensus on Dany?

[BTD6_maker]

UNVOTE: iDanyBoy
I think I got really caught up in finding inconsistencies that I didn't think about the motive of it enough, I want to get my thoughts straight for a bit, I feel I might be not making any sense.

It seems like everyone has 1/2 set scumreads and isn't really engaging with people other than the occasional questioning post. Town players, you need to start convincing me / others that your reads are correct and why. Simply saying 'It's in my ISO' doesn't help to further the game. Try to make your reads more solid if you can, I know personally, it'd help me a lot with distinguishing between disinterested town and lurking scum.

Inconsistencies can come from Town, but they can have a scum motivation. If someone exhibits lots of inconsistencies in the same manner as Dany, the motivation could be that they want to push someone and are looking for reasons, while they themselves exhibit those reasons. We have to examine whether Dany's reasons seemed genuine (in which case, why not follow them yourself?) or trying to search for reasoning to push.

[BTD6_maker]

I have a few questions for you.

Why would you do what you scumread someone for, if you are just trying to see whether you will be scumread? Would someone scumreading you for not giving reasons (when you scumread others for the same) be indicative of Town or scum?

You were accusing me of passing off others' reasoning as my own. Were you deliberately trying to avoid it?

[BTD6_maker]

I don't understand the contradiction.

So your voting me for not being hypocrtical?

You see that's the point, he's had ample opportunity to mention the difference and he hasn't. This leads me to believe he is scum trying to get away with it.

No, I tried explaining it to you in this post but then you changed your argument in this post. That's is the third time you changed your reasoning for voting me in short succession.

VOTE: Draynth

You flip flopped from being hypocritical to not being hypocritical without stating why and trying to pass it off as you simply being towny

I don't understand how that is a 'flip-flop'. Your argument doesn't make sense.

You have given some answers, but they are unsatisfactory. You are essentially denying the argument without actually refuting it. You are also using misrep in these posts. For example, when Draynth clearly has multiple reasons for voting you and pushes the fact that you flip-flopped, you claim that Draynth is changing reasons in short succession, with the implication that they are just making them up on the spot, which I doubt.

You still haven't answered this one:
"Why would you do what you scumread someone for, if you are just trying to see whether you will be scumread? Would someone scumreading you for not giving reasons (when you scumread others for the same) be indicative of Town or scum?"

[BTD6_maker]

@BTD, who are you Townreading and why? (I can already see about your scumreads and why). Or rather, let me get more specific and to the point. Are there any reads which you agree on with someone but you disagree with the other person's reasons/have your own, unique reasons?

I don'treally have strong Townreads at the moment, but I am weakly Townreading you. I have stated some reasons, such as your insistence that people give reasoning as opposed to naked votes. I also read your trying to get a response from me (about why I didn't answer past questions) as slightly Town-motivated, as it seems that if scum do that they are more likely to use it as a reason to scumread someone.

For the second point, not really. I agree with the main points made against both Something_Smart and iDanyBoy. My own reasons are very similar to other's reasons.

Speaking of which, iDanyBoy still hasn't addressed 529.

[BTD6_maker]

Has Raya actually been scumhunting?

- They Townread Gamma due to the claim.

- They scumread Flubbernugget for a lack of reasoning on Gamma.

- They scumread SS for sheeping.

- They scumread Dany for sheeping.

These are their four main points. However, I noticed that for much of the time they lacked much depth in their reasoning. This seems to be the reason people see them as not scumhunting.

Of course, we cannot get any more content from them. Sergtacos, do you agree with Raya's reads?

[BTD6_maker]

Of course, we cannot get any more content from them. Sergtacos, do you agree with Raya's reads?

Why do you expect 2 different people to read the game in the same way?

I don't. I am trying to see what Sergtacos' reads are. It was essentially "This is what Raya thought. What do you think?" rather than presuming that the reads will be similar. This will also generate content from this slot and give a new perspective.

[BTD6_maker]

VOTE: BTD6

Because I'm town lol

This is not RVS. At this stage, you need reasons behind your votes. You know you are Town, but why does that make you think I am scum? Provide reasoning.

[BTD6_maker]

I currently read SergTacos as mildly scummy for being opportunistic and refusing to give content.

VOTE: SergTacos

I would prefer Something Smart or iDanyBoy, but they seem unlikely with 15 hours left.

[BTD6_maker]

I mostly agree with this. Dany has been rather inconsistent. For the first point, I can see why they think that not giving reasoning is scummy but if they believe that, they should agree. They believe that stating reasons is pro-Town therefore it will benefit Town if they state reasons therefore they should state reasons. Their justification for not stating reasons does not make sense. Reaction tests are also generally ineffective and if, in doing so, you contradict something you claim to believe, it can easily be picked up on.

The second quote exemplifies this. If you have certain standards, you are expected to follow them. It is not different if you do something.

The third and fourth quotes are fine. It is possible for Townies to have gut reads that you cannot pin down reasons for. However, when your read is strong enough to warrant a vote, reasoning is expected.

Currently, I scumread Dany as well as SS.

You have given some answers, but they are unsatisfactory. You are essentially denying the argument without actually refuting it. You are also using misrep in these posts. For example, when Draynth clearly has multiple reasons for voting you and pushes the fact that you flip-flopped, you claim that Draynth is changing reasons in short succession, with the implication that they are just making them up on the spot, which I doubt.

You still haven't answered this one:
"Why would you do what you scumread someone for, if you are just trying to see whether you will be scumread? Would someone scumreading you for not giving reasons (when you scumread others for the same) be indicative of Town or scum?"

I'm not sure how to think of these. BTD is voting SS but not pushing, while having more focus on Dany but not voting.

I didn't vote because I read SS and Dany as being approximately equally scummy. At that point, I was just focusing on Dany for the moment because I was looking for answers to those questions, in order to see whether Dany was truly being inconsistent.

[BTD6_maker]

Indeed, they still haven't answered that question.

[BTD6_maker]

VOTE: iDanyBoy

There was no extended quickhammer on me. Scum may not have been able to be on at the same time but it is likely that they planned it out during the Night so they know when they are online. This makes iDanyBoy much more likely to be scum, as scum cannot hammer if they are already on the wagon.

[BTD6_maker]

BTD6, would you say that stating the obvious is a scumtell for you? If not, why do it as town?

Stating the obvious is at worst null for me.

I don't understand the second question. Are you suggesting that I should only state the obvious if it's a scumtell for me?

If something is true, there is no reason not to state it.

[BTD6_maker]

There is no benefit to not saying it. Can you think of any explicit benefit to not saying it?

If even one person forgets for a moment that to me iDanyBoy is confscum, there is at least some small benefit to saying it.

[BTD6_maker]

There you go ignoring my questions to you again.

Ugh. Dany's response is so lackluster, but at least he gave some kind of response. BTD completely ignores me, but then answers Something_Smart's posts. I already had this issue with BTD back on D1 and now he's doing it again which makes me sure he's deliberately ignoring me. There's no way he's Town here.

VOTE: BTD

The only question I could find addressed to me is asking who I see as likely to be scum and who I think can't be partners.

I have already answered that I see iDanyBoy as practically confscum. As for partners, in principle anyone could be aligned with iDanyBoy. On the off chance that iDanyBoy is Town, I think neither you nor SS can be paired with Vedith (or scum would have quickhammered) so it must be you/SS. This is somewhat unlikely as you made posts within slightly over half an hour so you may have had a chance to quickhammer, but you/SS is possible as a scum pair if iDanyBoy is Town. Other than that, I will keep my vote on iDanyBoy.

Please remove your vote. The moment the other scum logs on, Town loses. LyLo should certainly not be ending this early. We have over 10 days in which we must find scum. We should not simply waste 10 days by lynching a Townie.

[BTD6_maker]

There you go ignoring my questions to you again.

Ugh. Dany's response is so lackluster, but at least he gave some kind of response. BTD completely ignores me, but then answers Something_Smart's posts. I already had this issue with BTD back on D1 and now he's doing it again which makes me sure he's deliberately ignoring me. There's no way he's Town here.

VOTE: BTD

The only question I could find addressed to me is asking who I see as likely to be scum and who I think can't be partners.

1 question or 100, a question to you is still for you and not to be ignored, especially at lylo. There's no way you as Town thought that was ok.

I have already answered that I see iDanyBoy as practically confscum. As for partners, in principle anyone could be aligned with iDanyBoy. On the off chance that iDanyBoy is Town, I think neither you nor SS can be paired with Vedith (or scum would have quickhammered) so it must be you/SS. This is somewhat unlikely as you made posts within slightly over half an hour so you may have had a chance to quickhammer, but you/SS is possible as a scum pair if iDanyBoy is Town. Other than that, I will keep my vote on iDanyBoy.

If it was really me/SS we would have quickhammered a long time ago.

Please remove your vote. The moment the other scum logs on, Town loses. LyLo should certainly not be ending this early. We have over 10 days in which we must find scum. We should not simply waste 10 days by lynching a Townie.

Guess you were afraid they'd not hammer and you'd get found out as scum.

I did not ignore your question. I stated that I had indeed answered it.

At the moment, from my perspective, because I know I am Town, you and iDanyBoy are both confscum.

[BTD6_maker]

Umm... so it doesn't seem like you're saying pointless things to sound busy?

The alternative would have been a naked vote. It's better to give the true reasons, even if they are obvious, than to not give any reasons at all.

[BTD6_maker]

You did state your Dany scumread but you completely ignored the part of my question where I asked you about partners. You didn't acknowledge any of that post until after I voted you, and then you started singing like a canary. You were afraid you'd slip up, which is exactly what you did, isn't it?

I didn't have much idea about partners. Anyone could be iDanyBoy's partner and I did not have partner reads on anyone.

[BTD6_maker]

Which tells me you weren't even trying to solve the game, you were just trying to get that last lynch for the win.

This is misrep.

When iDanyBoy was practically 100% confscum to me, that read alone would outweigh anything else in the entire game. Regardless of how strongly I felt someone was scum, lynching them would always be far worse than lynching iDanyBoy.

For example, at this stage, you and iDanyBoy are confscum to me, and Something_Smart and Vedith are confTown. Thus, regardless of how scummy they play, I do not need to read anyone's alignment. At that point I didn't know everyone's alignment, but I knew that one person was guaranteed to be scum and thus I would never have a reason to vote anyone else unless they were also confscum.

[BTD6_maker]

BTD6_maker (2): Something_Smart, iDanyboy

BTD6_maker (2): Something_Smart, iDanyboy

BTD6_maker (3): Something_Smart, iDanyboy, Sergtacos L-1

BTD6_maker (2): Something_Smart, iDanyboy

Dany / BTD are not scum.

Also, SS you're reads mean very little if it's outside of BTD/me and Alch/Dany. You should state anything you want to though, as if you lynch wrong today, game over, lynch right, we lynch the buddy.
Easy game, easy money.

So, now let me tell you why Vedith/BTD is a no go for you.
1 - It will lose us the game
2 - I came into the day with you as scum, but I wanted to hear opinions first before risking the vote dropped. Dany gave no regard to any other teams away from BTD and dropped the vote. That means that he had no care with LyLo, not something town does.
3 - Alch is trying way too hard right now. He's also got the sweats because he knows when Dany is lynched, tomorrow he is bye bye.
4 - 743 is such so forced. Even more so with 725.
5 - Alch 721 suggests that me and Dany can be scum together (which I still don't get) and has no issue voting BTD with that thought.
6 - I'm Vedith \o/
7 - I solved the game.

I can analyse this.

At the moment, I know every player's alignment. I know Vedith is Town, and I know Vedith knows iDanyBoy is scum. Vedith clearly considers it extremely unlikely that the scum team is myself and iDanyBoy (they stated as much), so from Vedith's perspective Point 1 holds.

It doesn't necessarily hold from your (SS) perspective, though. From your perspective, Vedith/BTD and Alchemist/iDanyBoy are both possible scumteams. (BTD/iDanyBoy is also possible, though presumably much more unlikely). Thus, while it is solid for Vedith (who can guarantee 100% that iDanyBoy is scum) it doesn't necessarily apply to you.

Now for Point 2.

A Townie voting first early in LyLo is anti-Town (barring extreme circumstances like getting a Cop guilty). Even if a Townie has a very strong scum read, there is nothing to lose in waiting for at least a while before voting. Would scum do the same? Scum have two options. They can either just sit and wait for a Townie to vote a Townie (like I did in 714). This is risky, though, as it could take a while and there is always a chance of you being suspected. The other approach is to strongly push for the lynch of one specific Townie and hope to convince someone else to join you. It is perhaps easier to push a lynch here if you try to make sure that another Townie also scumreads the same person. (The main disadvantage is that you effectively reduce the lynch pool to two people, one of which is yourself, so you would have a 50% chance of being lynched barring other factors).

Here iDanyBoy has taken the latter approach. They voted me near the start, being the first to push for a lynch. What makes the second method work here? Here it is the fact that you were scumreading me previously and so scum hoped you would vote me.

Now Point 3.

From my perspective I know Alchemist is scum. However, from your perspective you do not know that for sure so for the sake of argument we will suppose they are Town.

Consider their perspective after iDanyBoy voted me and I voted them. From my perspective, I knew iDanyBoy was practically confscum so I could vote them without any fear of being wrong. From Alchemist's perspective, they had no such knowledge. Either of us could have been scum. However, they then proceed to push that I am scum as opposed to iDanyBoy and voted me when there was plenty of time left in the game (which, as Town, loses instantly if they are wrong). Their responses to me after that looked like scum trying to frame everything I say as scummy (such as, for example, the fact that I did not suspect anyone particularly as being iDanyBoy's partner as me just trying to get the last lynch). A Townie would consider the possibility that iDanyBoy is scum, but Alchemist refuses to do so.

(Of course, in this analysis we need to ignore everything they said after Vedith voted and there was no hammer, as at that point I really would be confscum from their perspective).

This also explains the fourth point. I now know that they are scum. In those posts they seem to be looking for reasons to vote me (and using one reason to claim I am practically "confscum") to them. As scum, they want to vote me without looking suspicious in the process. After that, all it would take is one Townie to vote me and they win. (As I now know they are scum I can rule out the possibility that they were Town and genuinely believed (but with some confbias) that that made me scum; however, I couldn't do so until they actually voted me and no hammer occurred).

As for the fifth point, a Townie would generally at least consider a particular pair. They are confident that SS is not scum, which I can understand. However, the one pair they didn't consider, given SS is Town, is Vedith/iDanyBoy, which implies that they do not consider that I could be Town. Again, this type of thinking can lose the game instantly as Town, but is very helpful for pushing a lynch as scum.

The sixth and seventh points seem to be jokes, so I will ignore them.

This is the case on iDanyBoy/Alchemist being the scum team. My analysis is probably somewhat clouded by my knowledge that Vedith and SS are confTown and iDanyBoy and Alchemist are confscum, but it's probably still fairly accurate. (Even if I know who scum are I cannot know exactly what they are thinking, but I can still make reasonable assumptions).

[BTD6_maker]

BTD6, what is the difference between your townplay and your scumplay?

For me, it's hard to tell. I do think I play somewhat better as scum (I have won a majority of my scum games), but other than that I cannot state anything specific. If I try self-meta, it will inevitably be biased.

Meta is generally a lot more reliable if done by someone who has played a lot of games with you as opposed to yourself.

Would you describe any particular difference between my scum and Town play?

You have seen me as scum in Micros 710 and 714 as well as Open 654. Have you seen me as Town?

[BTD6_maker]

You were town in 654, but I don't really remember that much of your play.

Do you believe that you are able to perfectly imitate your town thought processes as scum?

I may have confused Open 654 with another game.

In Open 654, I was the Tracker. I don't remember that much either, except that I almost got a scum guilty Day 1.

As scum, I do try to follow general principles I follow as Town, but I don't necessarily imitate my thought processes perfectly. My play certainly seems different, but I am not sure whether that is just due to the extra information or whether it's a distinct playstyle.

Again, if I try to analyse my own meta bias is inevitable, so I am probably not the best person to ask.

[BTD6_maker]

Official Vote Count

Not Voting

(4): BTD6_maker, Alchemist21, Something_Smart, iDanyboy

With 4 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

The day 4 deadline is in

: (expired on 2017-07-16 17:59:00)

iDanyBoy is dead.

VOTE: Alchemist21

[BTD6_maker]

Well done, Town.

SS, do you think scum here were similar to myself in 714? It seemed that scum were again trying to play a Townie against another, but this time you had learned from it.

[BTD6_maker]

ThinkBig, now that this game is over do you think this is a better setup than Matrix6? Would you suggest making this the Newbie Setup?

[BTD6_maker]

Personally I think this is a good setup and I'd definitely consider making this a replacement for Matrix 6.

The only thing I am concerned about is that FN could be weaker than BP, which in itself has low win rates in Matrix6. Its main advantage over the BP is that it can prevent scum from fakeclaiming (for example, once a JK is confirmed scum are likely to claim BP). This needs more testing if it is to replace Matrix6, but it could feasibly work.

[BTD6_maker]

I was thinking what if you made it a Neighborizer instead of a Friendly Neighbor? As we saw with MM's claim, a FN claim gets treated as confTown anyway so that it's actual ability is kinda pointless and the roleblocker/Jailkeeper just exist to keep each other in check. Neighborizer gives the same claim benefit with the added ability of talking with your targets, and it also gives a point to the blocking abilities (scum can stop the neighborizer from getting neighbors, and JK can accidentally block them from doing it), and it's still an active power that the Tracker can see in that setup.

This would be useful. A Neighbouriser has some Town utility and is easily confirmable by everyone in the neighbourhood, so it seems to essentially be strictly better than a FN. This seems to fix the issue of FN being worse than BP, as a Neighbouriser offers additional utility.

Is anyone willing to mod Neighbouriser 6? I could always try to mod it.