Open 694: Friends and Enemies (Game Over!)

[ConnorJC]

Hi. Just so everyone's aware, I'm horrible at Mafia.

That said,
VOTE: GameNBurger

[ConnorJC]

12 is a tryhard post it's too much effort too early on

Funny, that's how I'd describe your posts.

[ConnorJC]

What makes 26 so towny?

bc he was genuinely confused and trying to figure out what i was talking about

You think only town can misunderstand a statement and question the meaning behind it?

well no scum could but do you think he's mafia?

Nice job dodging the question. Either Transcend is scum or he's trying to look for scum reactions with his trash reads.

[ConnorJC]

I hate Transcend's play and most (all?) of his reads and logic, but he's not scummy atm.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: ConnorJC

But I am?

[ConnorJC]

Don't like EchoVision, although we're well past RVS his posts are still basically joke posts with no analysis - like he's trying to appear active but stay out of any serious discussion.

Although I don't like maya's analysis, I think it's genuine and that maya is town.

Fenraiser hasn't posted much, but imo 24 is very towny.

[ConnorJC]

I hate Transcend's play and most (all?) of his reads and logic, but he's not scummy atm.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: ConnorJC

I think it's pretty scummy. Do you think all his reads are substantiated in his own head?

If the reads are fabricated, what was his plan? What's the play? To draw a bunch of attention to himself and get lynched?

Attention doesn't necessarily mean a lynch. Right now he has no votes, and I have a bunch, so if he's scum I'd say his play is working.

[ConnorJC]

that's what i do *shrug*
check out my games boyyo

or ask game/transcend that's what i did in KAT

Is jumping on a wagon with literally no reasoning also part of your normal repertoire? It seems to be eerily missing in KAT where you first non-RVS vote was on page 13.

[ConnorJC]

I'm not too sure about his fluidity with Connor, he votes him and then less than 15 posts later he just kinda agrees that somebody was right on Connor so he unvotes.

If connor flips scum I'm okay with looking at this as a potential scum buddy. Would make sense if he voted it as an excuse "nah I sus'd him at one point I can't be his buddy"

If the lynch went through then he looks good because he was on the wagon, when the wagon started loosing steam he was like yeah i don't have to be here and dipped

So it's ok for your votes to make no sense but not raya's?

[ConnorJC]

People who've played with him, is Transcend usually this wrong this quickly?

I find this post a little scummy, but overall I'm reading Sun as mildy town for now.

[ConnorJC]

People who've played with him, is Transcend usually this wrong this quickly?

him and his hydra buddies weren't this agressive when they were WW so for now he's off the hook and I'm sheeping him but since my vote isn't on Connor anymore it's going on you

VOTE: SunChild

not just a pure sheep, you can tell that I had issues with you before when I exclaimed you were reaching with shit and I didn't like it

Why are you so worried about defending your vote, rather than actually giving reasons Sun is scum?

[ConnorJC]

I like wave so far, while it is fairly non-committal on reads I think its questions are genuine attempts to understand the game.

[ConnorJC]

I realize this is early in the game, so this is really tentative, but I like Echo+Trans as scum partners.

- Echo's RVS vote was on trans, but he quickly switched off of it (Even though he stays on me for a long time with a "pressure" vote)
- Both are voting with a serious lack of logic (This is especially important because Echo is somewhat sheeping Trans, even though Trans has barely any analysis backed up by logic/scumhunting)
- Echo tried to lean on Trans to back him up on his self-meta read
- Trans dedicated a whole post to TRing Echo rather than lumping him in like with most of his TRs

While each of these individually are fairly weak, with all this piling up so early I'm getting a bad vibe from Trans and Echo.

[ConnorJC]

Sesq still hasn't contributed anything, and has jumped onto another bandwagon since the last time I complained about her doing that.
In wavemode's post 96, if he's been reading and has realized I'm an alt, 'Welcome to mafia' looks too commiserating - like he's trying to get on my good side. If at this post he still thinks I'm a newbie, it's null.
Echo is devoting more time to defending himself than I'd expect from a non-newb town. Plus, he's spamming even more than the ridiculously spammy meta which is apparently normal on MS these days, so he's awful for that regardless of alignment.
Is Kcdaspot in this game? He's listed as alive but still hasn't posted.

Let's lynch Transcend though. His play has been way too erratic and his reads too bad for the amount of pressure he's been getting, which is actually zero. Other than Echo saying he was less aggressive as part of a town hydra in another game, no one has said anything that would make me think this is normal townplay for him.

VOTE: Transcend

@ConnorJC, let's hold off on spending too much time talking about or voting based on interaction tells - remember, any given interaction set is as likely to be Mason as Mafia, and we may be pointing out the Masons to the Mafia if we go too hard on connections. Something to think more about after we have a flip or a claim. How do you feel about lynching Transcend on his own merits though?
@GameNBurger, bombcat, Flubbernugget: Let's lynch Transcend today, yeah? How do you feel about that?

Fair enough, forgot about the potential to be mason. To be honest I'm really on the fence with Transcend. I don't like his play, but I honestly can see a misguided towny playing that way as well. That said, he's an experienced player and every post with just an accusation and no analysis looks worse and worse.

[ConnorJC]

Don't like EchoVision, although we're well past RVS his posts are still basically joke posts with no analysis - like he's trying to appear active but stay out of any serious discussion.

also, looking back at it, we're really not well past RVS... we're just over 100 posts into the game and there's still a couple people that we haven't heard anything from, if so it was one post

Arguing a technicality like this is just plain scummy. You know that I meant we were out of RVS and exaggerated a slight bit.

[ConnorJC]

I realize this is early in the game, so this is really tentative, but I like Echo+Trans as scum partners.

- Echo's RVS vote was on trans, but he quickly switched off of it (Even though he stays on me for a long time with a "pressure" vote)
- Both are voting with a serious lack of logic (This is especially important because Echo is somewhat sheeping Trans, even though Trans has barely any analysis backed up by logic/scumhunting)
- Echo tried to lean on Trans to back him up on his self-meta read
- Trans dedicated a whole post to TRing Echo rather than lumping him in like with most of his TRs

While each of these individually are fairly weak, with all this piling up so early I'm getting a bad vibe from Trans and Echo.

first off if you think trans and I are both this bad/obvious as scum if you end up in a game with one of us as scum you've got another thing coming...

my RVS vote was on trans because it was RVS? if you want reason then keep looking because it was

random

as it states in the name

Random

Voting Stage. Also staying on you for about 12 hours isn't a "long time". You seem to have a habit of blowing things out of proportion.

We're just over 100 posts into this game, if you want logic then go sub into a game that's in d3 because there's not much logic that you can get from 100ish total posts in a game

This third reason is complete ass cheeks as I also leaned onto GameNBurger as well? And both of them were in the game? I don't really understand how me acknowledging people that were in my last game enhances a scum read on me or trans?

What post did Trans dedicate to TRing me...?? I highly doubt it was anything over 3 sentences but Idek what the fuck you're talking about...

PEdit: Sesq is a female, not a he

Also if you guys really find Trans and I as scum buddies then go ahead and lynch me first. I'd much rather Trans stay alive for the sake of the town as he's a much better player than I am

Nice ad hominem. I also love how you're trying to discredit everyone's logic by acting like the first 100 posts don't count or something.

Also, calm down, you're not getting lynched yet. I haven't even voted you or Transcend yet.

[ConnorJC]

i still kinda think connor is scum but lol who knows

Sesq seems non-committed to his vote on Conner. I don't like it. He hasn't posted much, but the little he has posted doesn't seem good at all.

VOTE: UNVOTE

I'm not really convinced on the the cases on Sun, and he has been contributing his suspicions and logic and they seem fine to me, and it seems that Transcend and Echo are trying to invalidate that and Sun's credibility.

I'll put more later.

This post is very towny, good analysis on Sesq and willing to scumhunt.

Offtopic: By the way, there's an unvote tag too

[ConnorJC]

transcend is conftown

fenraiser has my ire

wavemode is second guessing transcend. we need one of these people tbh even if he may be scum which i dont know

but you're walking a tightrope dude

i think sunchild is just new, and should be treated as such **for now**

echo is me but tries to hide the fact they have little reasoning. more of a viable candidate for that vote, huh fenraiser? is that your buddy?

actually nvm hes town. i was just going off one post and being a cheapshit. i am sorry uwu.

connor may indeed be lynchbait but idk man still a little sketch. leaning lattter.

ahahahha

that constitutes as good analysisi


shhhahahahahaa

i dont know if this is you being scum or you being uh

Why is Transcend conftown?
Accusing wave of being scum because he's doubting Transcend is garbage analysis.

[ConnorJC]

Sun already said he's an alt.

I find it interesting how several people are complaining about Sesq being inactive, even though he posted some reads, while bombcat is getting a free pass.

[ConnorJC]

@ConnorJC: You're still voting GameNBurger. Do you find him scummier than Transcend? How about Sesq and bombcat, who you just mentioned?

Nope, that was an RVS vote. I actually thought I changed my vote to Transcend already, thanks for pointing out that I didn't.

VOTE: Transcend

[ConnorJC]

i think bombcat has the "lol xd!" factor going

if sunchild is not an alt then

yeah imma vote because without the noob justification this play is total ass. maybe its just bad meta tho???? damn....

VOTE: SunChild for. now. smh

Bad play isn't scummy, so why is Sun scum?

[ConnorJC]

I don't expect to change the meta back to my preferred era (08-09 was the golden age IMO) in one game. But I'd still like to make a good argument for doing so. There is a disturbing trend I've noticed in this game, for this interaction to happen: "Hey, you're playing really scummily, without contributing much of anything." "Oh, I always play like this." IF YOU ARE TOWN, THAT IS NOT A GOOD EXCUSE. Even if you are correct that playing like a fucking idiot isn't a meta tell for your alignment, it still makes it harder for town to reliably find scum. This is especially true of the spammy posts - people are posting four or five posts in a row! What, you couldn't look over your post once in a preview edit and make sure you had everything you needed? If all you're posting is a three-word joke or reiteration of something you've said before, often on the same page, DON'T POST IT. If anything, wait until some other players have had time to post rather than generating noncontent that just makes it harder for town to sift through and scumhunt or for anyone to catch up. I woke up this morning to a thread like three pages after I went to bed, and most of it was not real content. How hard is it going to be for Kcdaspot or whoever replaces him to wade through this sewage flood of useless posts? Or even players like bombcat, gamenburger, and raya, who are posting less than average? IF YOU ARE TOWN, VOMITING YOUR EVERY INANE THOUGHT INTO THE THREAD AT THE PRECISE TIME IT ENTERS YOUR BRAIN IS NOT HELPING YOU.

This is a late response, and irrelevant to the game (aka feel free to not read this post), but:

I disagree that more posts is necessarily bad. I tend to feel that highlighting each of my ideas within it's own post tends to get more of a response, as players gloss over long posts. But seriously, random joke posts or garbage like "X is conftown" with no proof/analysis attached is just stupid. It's not that hard to read through 4 or 5 posts rather than one big one. However, it is a lot harder to catch up when every other post is sewage that needs to be filtered out. Then the catching up/replacing player has to filter out all the useless junk taking up valuable words on the thread, and because of that might end up missing/forgetting the actually important posts.

Also, making low effort trash posts and then claiming that you basically don't need to play the game because you do this every game is shitty play. If you want to post meaningless shit that makes no sense at all go post in general discussion. I'm here to play mafia, a game of wits and logic, not to just wagon someone based on half-assed logic because you can't bother playing the damn game.

[ConnorJC]

Can someone voting Sun actually explain their vote? Like sure, I don't think he looks super towny but I also don't see how he's scum.

[ConnorJC]

I come back, expecting some progress in the game. Instead, I get blasted with 90% shitposting and 10% gameplay.
Honestly, I'm probably just going to start queuing as an SE in the newbie queue, at least the people there won't be complete assholes. Seriously, I now can see why most players have a blacklist of people they won't play with.

yeah trans!scum wouldn't say something along the lines of "Lynch sun" so obviously in every post

trans is town kthx bye

Why not?

When did sesq say that wave was scum and why are you attempting to discredit the analysis that she didn't even make?

It wasn't outright stated, but implied (bolded important part):

wavemode is second guessing transcend. we need one of these people tbh even if he may be scum which i dont know

but you're walking a tightrope dude

Ad hominem is when you insult someone instead of responding to their arguments. I don't really think it applies here, as you did respond to Connor's arguments.

God, mafia is awful now. I'm not going to replace out and leave my replacement in a lurch, but if Transcend or Echo is town in this game, I don't want to be in games with them going forward. Fuck this taking up multiple to respond thing. No wonder Echo thinks you can't have good reads 100 posts in.

You can respond to arguments and still have it laced with ad hominem, they aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

Multiple people now have suggested I shouldn't be waiting for answers from lurkers and should just be posting my own thoughts. But it's the wrong approach to this game.

Please keep chasing for answers to unanswered questions, I think it's great play as long as you don't take it too far.

[ConnorJC]

What is "too far"? And what do you make of Echo's response here?

Don't spam the game thread if people are obviously V/LA or let it get to the point that you won't make a read on someone just because they didn't answer one of your questions.
Echo seems to like brushing off accusations as if they don't matter, ignoring questions, etc. I don't see how any of that helps town.

if you have an issue with me or my playstyle then feel free to replace out. I have no issue with that.

Filling the game thread with shitposting isn't a playstyle, as it isn't playing the game.

also if you think mafia is about pure logic you are dead 100% wrong and you will not be a good mafia player

I agree, but logic is probably the easiest way to back up a read. It's harder to explain something like a gut feeling. Mafia isn't about guessing.

I think I'm going to vote wave mode

As I think that wave is one of the towniest players here, why do you think he's scum?

[ConnorJC]

Hey Connor, going "geez everyone sucks I'm gonna que for another game" and then not trying to point out specifics isnjust unhlepful to other players and definitely anti town

I'm complaining about the stupidly high amount of shitposting and offtopic discussion, I can post links to it if you want. Also, it was an offtopic comment not related to the game, so I'm unsure how it's anti-town.

[ConnorJC]

My other scum picks are bombcat and wave, sun ended up growing on me as the pages went by

You mean growing on you as town or scum?

[ConnorJC]

Still false. You guys can keep repeating this but it won't make it true If anyone wants to ask me anything, fire away.

Who do you think is most towny (and why)?
Who do you think is most scummy (and why)?

[ConnorJC]

I don't like wave's reads, as their all based on his assumption that Sun is scum. I made this mistake in my newbie game, basically used one read to solve the whole game, and I was dead wrong.

@wave you've been eerily silent on Trans, except to call people scummy for voting him. What are you thoughts on Transcend?

[ConnorJC]

@wave you've been eerily silent on Trans, except to call people scummy for voting him. What are you thoughts on Transcend?

[ConnorJC]

Just did, your ISO just says that Trans is playing like a fool. Are you saying he's town because of that?

[ConnorJC]

Alright back on my computer. Yeesh, I forgot how lazy some players are... scroll down like two inches in my ISO and you see this.

I hate Transcend's play and most (all?) of his reads and logic, but he's not scummy atm.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: ConnorJC

I think it's pretty scummy. Do you think all his reads are substantiated in his own head?

If the reads are fabricated, what was his plan? What's the play? To draw a bunch of attention to himself and get lynched?

My thinking has not changed on Trans since I posted this. He has not really struck me as scum and, frankly, I agree with him on his Sun read. So yeah, I consider him town at the moment.

So, just to clarify, you think Trans is town because:
- You can't figure out why he would draw himself attention as scum
- You agree with one of his reads

I've already responded to how attention doesn't mean getting lynched. Additionally, not being able to figure out someone's plan as scum could just make them good scum if they are scum (aka the point is meanigless).
Also, you're almost guaranteed to agree on reads with everybody. I agree with some of Transcend's reads, and he's my top scum right now.

[ConnorJC]

@wave do you have any reads that aren't based on the premise that Sun is scum?

Can we get more pressure on bombcat btw

Pedit: There's 3 masons in the game, so there actually are 3 town players that know each other to be town.
Also, maybe people are criticizing your reads now because you actually fucking posted them instead of refusing to give analysis like the first 10 pages of the game.

[ConnorJC]

No, that mason shit doesn't fly. You can know someone is town and still recognize that people have legitimate cases against them. That's not a situation where you turn around and blindly scumread the person attacking your partner, that's a situation where you calmly present a better case for who you believe the real scum is.

1. I didn't claim mason, I'm not claiming mason, simply pointing out that you're wrong when you say that it's impossible for townies to know that Sun is town.
2. I'm not blindly scumreading you (and I don't think others are either), as a matter of fact I'm TOWNreading you right now.

And no, I'm not talking about this in a myopic sense. I'm considering the game as a whole, and my experience in Mafia in general. When you're right, it strikes a nerve. I hadn't really seen any nerves struck this whole game, until now my one post suddenly raised an army to attack not just my post, but my playstyle and everything about me. Recognize here that I don't feel good about this Sun lynch simply because people disagree with it. I feel good about this Sun lynch because people disagree with EVERYTHING I've done now. Suddenly people are scrutinizing my questions, and my posting habits, and my reads, and my past statements, and my "grossly misreading" "deflecting" "bad vibes" things. I am now the enemy, and the scum are currently trying to discredit absolutely everything about me. I just don't know yet who among you are actively trying to and who are just the naive town.

This still completely ignores the fact that

without reads nobody can criticize your reads or play

.
Also, 90% of my recent interactions with you are questioning your Transcend read, nothing about defending Sun.

Seriously though, I'd try to figure out reads on people that make sense outside of the Sun is scum realm. Assuming that one person is scum and building the rest of your reads around that basically means the rest of your reads are worthless until Sun dies. Also, it's really really easy to fall into the confbias trap that way.

[ConnorJC]

Yes. Exactly. Everything we do here is worthless until someone dies. I could scumread whoever I want but until they're dead, we don't know for sure, do we?

Like, I'm perplexed by this way of thinking you have, that I should just dance around and point fingers at a bunch of people, cast the net wide and go the path of least resistance. We've got to lynch somebody. ONE somebody. And right now I think that somebody should be Sun. I don't pretend to know for a fact who is scum here or who is town but I've got a damn good read and I think it's our best shot. If I'm wrong I will re-assess (or get lynched. who knows ) but we will cross that bridge if and when we come to it.

NO NO NO, it's not worthless. Look, I'm sure you're confident of your read on Sun, that's great. But here's the thing - even the best mafia players get reads wrong. So that's why it's important to evaluate a lot of people, so that your entire worldview isn't driven by one read.
Your Sun read works now that there's a wagon on Sun. But what happens when somebody else gets wagoned? What if I got wagoned? Would you vote me based on your assumption that I am scum because I'm "defending" your scum read? You NEED to read other players too so you can evaluate each player without it being based on your potentially incorrect worldview.

Mm, "freaking out" is kind of the wrong characterization here (also, that's kind of juvenile shade to throw). More like, emboldened. I can smell the blood of scum, crying out against the lynch.

What, so you expect the town to just stand by while you lead a potential misslynch? The scum aren't crying out, you're just turning normal opposition to a lynch into scum via confirmation bias.

[ConnorJC]

Connor,

What town reasons does wave have to base his reads around 1 person?

Not talking good/bad reasons, just genuine ones.

I just think it's a mistake, bad play. I did the same thing in my newbie game, created a world in my head based on one or two reads.
Also, it seems more town than scum because wave is really pushing the Sun is scum theory. I feel like scum wouldn't do this, as if Sun flips town then wave will have a hard time convincing town of anything tomorrow, and also will be a potential lynch. It's that unrestrained commitment to his read that makes me think he's town, as I feel like scum would try to keep their distance so they don't look bad the next day.

[ConnorJC]

Connor, why did you ask for more pressure on Bomb without moving your vote to him

I still think Transcend is a better scum right now. By pressure I just mean overall not letting him get away with lurking, not necessarily vote pressure.

[ConnorJC]

Actually, you know what, I reread his ISO and I think I didn't realize how little he's contributed. I'm not convinced his asking for early townreads was anything but trolling, but I don't like how he's trying to just coast by.
I don't want a lynch without giving bomb a chance to participate, but I buy a world where he's scum.

UNVOTE: Transcend
VOTE: bombcat

[ConnorJC]

I've also given cases against other people

Really, you have? Because last I checked you'd only accused other people of being scum based on your Sun case, rather than them acting scummy.

Remember, every read that is based on the premise that Sun is scum, and doesn't work if he is town basically doesn't exist right now. You can post them, but expect me to treat them as if you didn't supply any meaningful support, because you didn't.

[ConnorJC]

Okay Connor can you do me a favor and actually read the game? I feel like this is the third or fourth time you are very obviously overlooking statements I've made. You asked me what my non-Sun reads were and I told you, point blank.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought your "cases" were referring to you calling out people because you believed that the scum were rising up to defend Sun.
If you meant your previous reads on Sesq and Echo, I mean sure, they exist, but you've literally put no effort into them and even yourself admit that they're weak analysis.

[ConnorJC]

Damn you guys post a lot, I'm going to do this page by page.

End of page 15 + Page 16

You know the thread has gone off the rails when you're arguing about power dynamics. Echo is right, wave is being condescending, although I'm not sure if that actually helps me figure out wave's alignment.

Connor, the (rhetorical) question still stands. I really don't see the point in pushing on people who I don't really think are scum, so of course my other reads lack effort.

If you don't put any effort into your other reads you'll miss scumtells because you're so confident in your current reads.

Raya's readlist is solid (although I don't agree with the sesq read atm), going to bump her up to town from my existing null read.

Page 17

bombcat spam is super scummy. It looks like he's scum trying to hunt masons.

The problem with this sentiment is that we don't really know anything to be true.

Something I've learned is that lynching correctly on day one is never the obvious or easy path. If a certain day one choice feels obvious or easy then that just means that the scum are trying to make it seem that way, and encourage the town to run in a particular direction. Or the town are getting themselves riled up about something and the scum have decided to step back and just let it happen. But when a certain choice starts making you lots of enemies, that's how you know you're probably on the right track.

Sooo, yeah, that's pretty much where my head's at right now. As sesq correctly pointed out, you can't just look at the game in terms of pure logic, but also gut too. And my gut's telling me that the cases people have right now for scum!wavemode are just bit too nitpicky and childish to all be legitimate town suspicion. I'm definitely getting pushback from scum right now, and that's giving me confidence that I'm right.

Your belief that scum are scumreading you because your scum read is right is likely confirmation bias.

Page 18

Almost no substance here, just bombcat fishing for masons again.

Page 19

Well apparently the thread has gone thoroughly off the rails and we've ended up on the moon.

[ConnorJC]

Oof. Ow. Red flags going off in my head. This kind of thinking is why I hate policy lynches, because they're nice and idealistic in theory, but in reality they get us nowhere, and they buy the scum an extra day to do whatever they want because the person almost always flips town. The scum are only blending in right now because they are specifically trying to. bombcat is not because he's not.

lol bombcat wants me dead and I still think he's town. That's because I've seen this policy lynch nonsense play out before and it's never good.

Lynching the most likely scum candidate is NOT a policy lynch.

[ConnorJC]

Just a reminder.

Waveform and jjh are scum.

Why?

[ConnorJC]

I'm starting to really not like flubber's play. His reads are oportunistic, and he seems to be holding back analysis. His last post that contained detailed analysis was 316, and we're nearing double that post number now.

[ConnorJC]

Sesq Jul 06, 10:02pm Jul 11, 12:19am 1 day 7 hours 26
SunChild Jul 06, 10:36pm Jul 10, 08:56pm 1 day 10 hours 17
Raya36 Jul 07, 05:15am Jul 10, 04:55pm 1 day 14 hours 14
Fenraiser Jul 06, 09:49pm Jul 09, 10:41am 2 days 20 hours 6
Mantichora Jul 07, 11:29am Jul 08, 01:04pm 3 days 18 hours 20

samedude....

What are those times?

[ConnorJC]

Well, I townread fen at the beginning of the game (although not very strongly because of the low post count), and I like Egg's analysis - so he still looks town.

[ConnorJC]

bombcat isn't trying to out the masons... he said one person was obv mason and probably wasn't even right. it's not like he's mason hunting

There's literally pages of just bombcat spam when he was fishing for masons. No, he didn't come out and ask who the masons are, but it seemed like he picked what he thinks is the most likely mason, and tried to find mason reactions by repeatedly calling jjh out as a mason.

[ConnorJC]

First off,

@everyone I will be V/LA for about the next 24 hours, maybe more like 28-30 hours if I'm unlucky

Additionally, I've had a situation come up in real life that will take a bunch of my time. I still think I should have enough time to play the game effectively, so I'm not going to replace out. However, my posts for the next week will probably be more like a couple wall posts a day rather than many smaller posts.

[ConnorJC]

Not much content since I've been here, so not much to discuss.

Honestly, I think that bombcat's fishing could've intentionally looked like low effort, in order for him to get out of a lynch

I'm still town-reading wave, as I see myself in my newbie game in him, but the problem is I fully understand why other town would scumread him.

[ConnorJC]

VOTE: Vedith

I hate to be sheeping jjh, but honestly I'm convinced. Also I thought Echo was scum, so there's that.

[ConnorJC]

@Flubber would it be possible for you to share a reads list?

I'm really unsure about a Sesq lynch. The effort for that is currently being lead by wave, and if I recall correctly his read on Sesq is based solely on his Sun scumread. Wave is quickly leaving the more solid world of his Sun read and venturing into what-if-sun-is-scum scenarios.

[ConnorJC]

I can see a world where Sesq is scum, but honestly she's a scumlean at best right now. After seeing the insane amount of pushback against the vedith lynch. Also, I'm starting to really believe flubber is scum, and the fact that flubber and vedith are both voting one of my top town reads (jjh) right now is really validating my theory.

@Sesq, @Raya, @Transcend, @bombcat - you can't all be scum, please help the town and get on a wagon.