Newbie 1817 - Bolo (Game Over)

[Draynth]

FrozenMagpie and Gorny are, like, totes Mafia.
My flower senses are tingling.

VOTE: Gorny

You know, I've made up my mind. ^^
I'll compromise.

UNVOTE: Gorny
VOTE: FrozenMagpie

Hi guys

VOTE: FancyPants

I never could finish your last level...

@Aster
What experience do you have playing forum mafia? Have you played before on here / elsewhere?

[Draynth]

Woops, didn't mean to quote those

[Draynth]

Fair enough

[Draynth]

I also have a question, on why it says peoples roles underneath their name?
Is this a bug?

Is this the most adorable town tell ever or fiendishly clever .

@Gorny, early thoughts?

for now I'm going with the former, if it was actually a setup then I'll be impressed hah

[Draynth]

Hopefully people are just busy on the weekend, what are your thoughts since you're about?

Uh, I'm not really thinking much. You and Aster have a small thing going but I don't feel like it's really indicative of anything. You could both be town or you could both be scum or you could be 1town and 1scum.

If what you said earlier had been worded differently, there might not even have been a debate at all.

This is applicable to anything, but I also think you're missing the point.
The 'small thing' happened

because

of the way it was worded, which is important.

Spoiler: Aster's thoughts on the adilm question

I also have a question, on why it says peoples roles underneath their name?
Is this a bug?

I am highly sceptical of this post. There are two possible situations:

1. He genuinely didn't know those "roles" were meaningless;
2. He did know those roles were meaningless and pretended he didn't.

In the second case, I'd definitely call scum upon this post. Whenever a human is guilty of something, it is their instinct to ask questions about things they already know to make it appear as if they don't have a clue about the situation. I'd call this a very strong scumtell, significantly beyond just "trying too hard to appear town."

However, we also have the first case to consider. Could it be true he was genuinely unaware about the function of those "roles"? Let us assume that this case is true, then there are some odd things about his post:

(Note: keep in mind that, according to his post in the sign-up thread, he has card-game mafia experience but no experience on this forum.)

• There is a "coincidence" that he voted FancyPants who is titled "goon" because he thinks FancyPants is scared of Gorny who is called "goon" as well;
• He didn't point out that FancyPants was marked as goon—is it because he didn't notice it at that time, or because of some other reason?
• Given that he has card-game mafia experience, he must know that having everyone's roles public is an absolute no-go. His reaction of "Why are ... is it a bug?" seems a bit passive for such a massive screw-up.
• Arbitrary titles under people's names are a common feature on many forums. If he has been on other (non-mafia) forums before, there are good chances he could guess what those titles represented.

Alright, none of the above is conclusive enough to show that he really knew that the titles were meaningless, but I wouldn't just blindly assume his "I really didn't know what those titles meant!" to be true.

Moreover, even if he really didn't know what the titles meant, that does not in any way prevent him from being scum and asking. Note that he asked "why our roles are under our names" and he didn't ask "what those titles meant". His way of asking suggests me that he was intentionally trying to slip a "hey I'm town" into his question.

Tl;dr:

I suspect adilm29h posted the above-quoted post with the intention to tell us "Hey I'm Town!" more than that he really wanted an answer to his question.

UNVOTE: FrozenMagpie
VOTE: adilm29h

I was about to suggest that if adilm were scum then he could've asked this in the pregame mafia PT, but I realised I dunno if their PT was open during pregame.

@Mod

May I ask if the mafia pair's PT was open during pregame, ie. the period between role PM's going out and the game officially beginning?

I also have a question, on why it says peoples roles underneath their name?
Is this a bug?

Is this the most adorable town tell ever or fiendishly clever .

@Gorny, early thoughts?

Why did you specifically ask gorny for thoughts? Also why did you vote Gorny in 25?

[Draynth]

@Xa ligha, if you were absolutely forced to kill one of the players in the game right now, who would it be and what would your justification be?

...what?

[Draynth]

Because the question feels like a scummy one to ask

[Draynth]

Because the question feels like a scummy one to ask

In what sense?

Seems like a potential WIFOM setup

[Draynth]

Because the question feels like a scummy one to ask

In what sense?

Seems like a potential WIFOM setup

I, too, find myself unable to figure out (1) where the WIFOM lies, and (2) how whatever-his-plot-was would help the mafiae.

Please explain in greater detail.

It feels like something that mafia could easily point back to as reasoning for a nightkill, or lack thereof and try to spin some yarn about it. It simply seems to me like this question has the possibility of causing a lot of confusion, directed by the scum of course, amongst the town.

@Fancypants
Asking him 'who would you kill' is different to 'who do you scumread' in my books, am I wrong in thinking this?

[Draynth]

Yeah OK, but why would I assume that it was open? Every mod does things differently.

[Draynth]

Also @Aster, thanks for explaining my point better than I could, bthata pretty much what I was trying to say

[Draynth]

That was*, sorry, mobile posting.

[Draynth]

Did you know they said in the sample role pms?

Why would i need to read the sample role pms? A) It doesn't always say if the PT is open during pregame, if I'm modding a game I just post in the PT when it is open.
B) I know what each role does.

[Draynth]

I mean he didn't say that anyone posting a lot is scum, he said that he thinks anyone posting a lot

unnecessarily

is scum, which I would agree with to an extent.

[Draynth]

I agree with you both, but in Aster's 178 it seemed to me like what adilm said was being interpreted differently, now I see that's not the case so fair enough

Haven't a clue FancyPants, I understand that's probably frustrating given the fact that I kicked up a fuss for you asking something similar to this to try avoid the answer I'm giving, but I really don't have any scum inklings at the moment. I'll reread and see if anything in particular stands out.

[Draynth]

Sorry, been busy, I'll post tomorrow

[Draynth]

Im reading your last post as fancy pants was asking me who I would kill if I were scum. Is this an inaccurate representation of what you Said?.

Was this directed at me?

[Draynth]

@Adilm
Generally the less talk of PR's day 1 the better, as FancyPants said scum are generally trying hard to find the PRs to kill them, it's best not to give them any help with that.

Sorry for the lack of content on my part, as an SE I shouldn't be lurking this much. I've just found this game hard to get into which happens, so I'll do my best to get more engaged.

I see a lot of people are scumreading MotherGothel, is there a summary I can read already posted as to why people think this?

Welcome CD, I see you are scumreading Adilm. Are you scumreading anyone else? Are you townreading anyone in particular?
Also just addressing your last point in 266, don't you think it's plausible that Adilm would A) google what the terms meant after no-one directly answered him? After all he uses the terms over 70 posts later. B) GreyIce kind of addresses what 'scum' means in his opening IC post, I'd say that was enough to either work out what scumread meant or to then be prompted to find out for himself. The fact that you're scumreading him for this feels scummy to me. Seems like you think he is scum and are finding evidence to support that theory instead of the other way around

[Draynth]

I do think it's very plausible that he figured it out on his own. But, my main concern about all that was the fact that he needed to ask what "scum" and "scum-reads" were. Again, it seems like something that is very obvious and doesn't need to be asked.

My first instinct was to disagree with this point but I think I'm starting to lean in the other direction. When I first started playing I didn't know what the terms meant and had to ask, I had only ever played Werewolf before, where obviously the bad guys are just called werewolves as opposed to mafia, scum, etc.
That being said I'm always hesitant to join the wagon of a newbie, particularly one who appears to be as new as adilm (Whether or not you believe the different questions he has asked come from town or not he still seems new, I don't think you can deny that) because in my experience it's almost always a mislynch since it's generally somewhat easy to pull off. That being said if he does get lynched and flip green we have a great pool of players to examine (those on the wagon, particularly the early votes in this case).

If he played mafia previously (which he did), do you think he would always say "I think this person is mafia", "I mafia-read this person", "I'm suspicious of X" or similar things, as opposed to saying "I scum-read this person" when he thought someone was mafia? I've never played mafia before where someone didn't know what "scum-reads" were, it's like one of the things you first learn when you start playing mafia.

I agree with this, but the thing is he actually did this in 55 where he asked what the terms meant; he called FancyPants suspicious. The next mention of him thinking anyone is scum is in 124, a full 2 days later. I can't help but feel that everyone baying for an adilm lynch is being far too cynical at the moment.

* Yes, he does claim to have played mafia before, just not forum. But to me, he's coming across as someone who's entirely new with his questions like "why are roles shown under names" which if anyone played mafia before they would know that roles being secret is rule #1. And, questions like "what are scum-reads" when it's one of the most basic and most used line in mafia. That's why I don't think those questions with his previous experience (which is apparently 10-15 games) adds up.

I really don't see how you are so certain that scum is a widely used term, particularly in the real life card game. Don't you think it's possible that they are just called mafia?

[Draynth]

Let's think back. In order for adilm29h not to be a lying bastard, all of the following would have to be true:

Let's not resort to namecalling please, attack the play; not the player.

He knew that FancyPants was titled "goon" by means of title, but made up a wholly different reason for voting him;

Techincally he supplemented his initial reason with another, he didn't use the latter in place of the former.

In fact, he claims that the title "goon" was not a reason to vote FancyPants at all (267), while in the same post claiming that he had no clue that the names meant nothing at all (remember him asking

why

and not

whether

?)

Alright now you're 100% misrepping him intentionally.
He said

Let me also tell you that no i had no clue that the name under meant nothing.

, ie. he thought it was a role.
He also said

And I knew fancy pants had goon in my reason but as I said that was not my main reason for lynching someone

.
Neither of the above quotes mean that the title was not a reason to vote.

Despite knowing that FancyPants and Gorny were the goon team by means of title, he did not even try to lynch both of them ("free win");

How do you

know

he saw both of the titles?

Despite knowing that Gorny was a goon, he thinks it is nonetheless scummy for FancyPants to gang up on Gorny amongst others;

Same as above

Despite having played 10-15 games before, he claims to know barely any tactics to tackling this game (124);

Card mafia and forum mafia are completely different things. How in the hell is this a scumtell even if they were

Despite the above point, he still seems confident that scumtells like "active players are scum" and "rude players are scum" are sane.

NewbieTown players often have

bad

reasoning such as this, it's far more common amongst newbTown than newbScum in my experience.

I'd also like to remark that adilm's definition of "power role" has apparently changed between post 191 ("Power role meaning strong voice") and post 274 ("By power role I meant he is a Mafia"). This fits a common pattern for him to say things without thinking and only when somebody calls him out on it, he makes up a story about what he meant. The same thing happened when he got called out on his reason to vote FancyPants.

Only point I agree with in this entire post by Aster, but even then it also fits into my theory that adilm could just be newbTown.

In short, I get the impression that adilm is more preoccupied with shifting attention away from him than with finding mafia.

100% normal for a newbTown who is afraid of being lynched for the record, I'm not condoning it since it doesn't actually help us solve the game but stop acting like he's the only person to ever do it.

At this point, I may even call this case "slam dunk". I see no reason to give him the advantage of doubt any longer. I will vote him with full conviction.

I lol'd

VOTE: Aster

For the record, Aster's very first case was against FancyPants for

Trying too hard to look town

, I find it ironic that the majority of Aster's case that looks like a town one at a skim doesn't hold up.

[Draynth]

I like cd's 276

[Draynth]

As an SE, why would I ever have reason to check the sample role PM's? I have never once actually done it in a game unless I'm trying to check the specific wording of a PR ability. You literally have 0 other reasoning for voting a useless wagon with 4 days left.

[Draynth]

You're also conveniently not even interacting with the game anymore. Either try and convince other people to vote me or find some actual scum.

[Draynth]

Because it never even occured to me that it would be contained in the role pm. Whenever I mod I just post in the mafia PT whenever it's open. I've explained this already

[Draynth]

That being said if he does get lynched and flip green we have a great pool of players to examine (those on the wagon, particularly the early votes in this case).

It's great how you are trying to discourage people from voting who they want by means of threats. Super helpful. This is just what town needs to move forward. Thank you for your valuable contributions.

If you think that's what this is I'm afraid you're mistaken

Techincally he supplemented his initial reason with another, he didn't use the latter in place of the former.

Yet he didn't mention it at all in the post where he voted FancyPants and didn't even mention it until I inquired him about it. He admits that he knew FancyPants was titled goon. It follows that one of the following must hold true:

• He found that title issue matter so little compared to his other argument that it wasn't worth mention.
• He lied about his motivations for voting FancyPants: he had a motive based on the title but made up something else to cover up his real motivations.
• He made his story up after the fact.

I'm betting on the last one.

Also, if adilm thought that people's roles are displayed below their names and somebody has the title goon, would you really believe that that could possibly be a

minor

reason to vote somebody?

He gave his reason in 37, he just made it more concise after you pressed him on it.

How do you

know

he saw both of the titles?

Because he said so himself.

Yea when I voted FancyPants, I realised Gorny has the title goon as well. But no I was not aware that Daynth has Mafia Scum.

Fair enough

Card mafia and forum mafia are completely different things. How in the hell is this a scumtell even if they were

Are you suggesting that lying to cover up your mistakes is not a scumtell?

This is 100% unrelated to what I was saying.
The original point was about not knowing how to scumhunt properly. Stop making crap up.

The only thing I realised I was wrong about was him 'knowing that Gorny also had a goon title'. When I first went to respond to your point about that I went through Adilm's iso and saw that Gorny replied to his question about what they meant and said that he had the same title

[Draynth]

@MotherGothel
Do you still think GreyIce is scum? Who else do you think might be scum? You've been on his wagon for a week at this point.

[Draynth]

Gorny is currently at L-1, Aster, please make sure to notify people of this the next time you put someone at L-1.

Gorny, you should claim your role if someone declares intent to hammer or if there is less than ~72 hours til the deadline and you still have 4 votes on you.

[Draynth]

Sigh, unless I'm mistaken that was a lynch

[Draynth]

Well played town

[Draynth]

@adilm

I see you asked in the mafia PT if it was a good idea to hammer Gorny, I think it was.
However I think you could've gone about it a bit better.

Generally what happens is that someone get's wagoned to L-1, then

you declare intent to hammer

, but do not vote them yet. This generally shows everyone that you would like to vote that person but are not doing so to allow them time to claim if needs be, which is a pro town thing to do. Now obviously a scum can fakeclaim a PR here (as you tried to do) but as you also saw it's pretty easy to know if they're lying in the majority of newbie setups. If you hammer someone without declaring intent you are telling people that A) you want the day to end early or B) you're hoping the person being lynched is a PR, both of which are very scummy things to do.

Overall I thought both of you made a great effort and should definitely sign up for more games if you had fun. Being scum in your very first game on the site is probably one of the hardest things to do so I commend you both for your attempt at winning

Well played to all the townies, I apologise if some of you think that I was a bit useless, but some games I just find it very hard to get involved (usually happens early on Day 1). Nice job on the perfect win

PEDIT: Thanks Fancypants, maybe we will see eachother in another game soon

[Draynth]

Woops, Thanks for modding Xalxe