Mini 1930: Titus's Old Music Playlist Mafia

[Drixx]

Apologies for not showing up sooner. I went for a nap yesterday because I wasn't feeling super great and then boom! headshot! (not really), fever sweat and chills. Literally just out of bed less than an hour ago. Hydrating and feeling okay, other than just dehydrated and a bit weak from what I assume was a flu-like bug that had its way with me for ~30 hours. Hopefully when I sleep tonight no more sweats and chills.

IMPORTANT:

I have a modifier to my role which could be seriously negative utility. I asked Titus about it with every "what if" that I could think of to be sure I understand exactly what it is, and it's not really something on the wiki. In fact, I couldn't really find anything on the wiki that I could compare it to without creating confusion. So this is the deal: any attempt to protect me from kills (bodyguard, doctor, invent a BP vest and give it to me, use a re-direct on the killer, try to swap me with another person for the purposes of targeting (we called this a bus driver on my home site), jail the person targeting me, jail me, roleblock the person targeting me) will all fail. If anyone targets me for death, no other role in the game can do anything to prevent me dying. I'm claiming this first post because whenever I show up dead, people need to realize that their choice of role usage could have been nullified by me being the kill target, and depending on what you do, that could turn the negative utility into a mechanical guilty (although that would require a lot of things to go "just so" to happen)).

I have nothing else to claim about my role at this time and would suggest you just take what I said and be aware of it. I have negative utility attached to my role which could interfere with your role. The up-side is that the way Titus answered, it would only ever happen once, so you will know which night to question whether your role worked as intended when I show up dead in the morning.

[Drixx]

That's a lot of words to say you can't be stopped from dying if targeted with a kill

Perhaps. The point was that whenever I end up dying, people should be aware that their role actions may have been impacted in some way. Once someone decides to attempt to kill me, nothing at all can stop that. No redireciton, blocking, jailing, doctoring, etc...

That means my negative utility could impact others. I thought it best to be as thorough as possible.

[Drixx]

Dunkerdoodles; this isn't a newbie game. I'm not experimenting with something new here. I'm alerting the town to negative utility. This allows town to avoid wasting anything protective on me, and sure ... scum can kill me if they want. There is positive utility to being the night kill in some circumstances. There's also the hedge utility of it. Generally speaking though, neg utility is claimed immediately or not believed. Thus, I claimed it immediately.

I will admit that the byplay was a little bit amusing though.

[Drixx]

Dunkerdoodles; this isn't a newbie game. I'm not experimenting with something new here. I'm alerting the town to negative utility. This allows town to avoid wasting anything protective on me, and sure ... scum can kill me if they want. There is positive utility to being the night kill in some circumstances. There's also the hedge utility of it. Generally speaking though, neg utility is claimed immediately or not believed. Thus, I claimed it immediately.

I will admit that the byplay was a little bit amusing though.

ok fine, i guess i'll believe you. what does a little newbie know anyways?
i still wouldn't have revealed if i were you tho

It was a calculated risk.

[Drixx]

...and Drixx seems to be trying FAR too hard to cover all his bases between his explanation for his 1 day absence with the flu and all that jazz --wouldn't have been surprised if his dog ate his homework too-- and literally listing every explanation possible in his claim, and hard harping on the fact that he talked to the mod.

No need for all that shit. I am very detail oriented, and those who play with me frequently (of whom there are several in this game) know that I am active and tend to be among the top posters. Therefore not showing up for 1.5 days into the game is odd for me. Those same people also know I have lived with an SCI most of my life and occasionally it screws with my life, so a heads up usually lets them know to let me engage and go from there. Listing every interaction I asked about is just polite to the rest of you. I at first assumed that only a killer who made it to me would be unstoppable (and thus no doctor or bodyguard or BP or any such would save me). It was only in questioning the mod that I found out that the moment someone decides to kill me, they cannot be stopped at all, even by the abilities of other players. That's important.

Dunker is lynch bait and Drixx is town lol

drixx's claim is nai but i completely agree with BFI with how it gives off that vibe of dotting every i and crossing every t. it strikes me more of a personality tell than not though.

~amethyst

Despite someone disagreeing, I would say you nailed it. My work is very detail oriented. I've also spent the past six or seven years working on training my mind to think rationally. It is very much a personality trait for me to say in 300 words what someone else might say in 30.

Drixx/Boonskiies/Aristophanes, any of you currently OK with lynching Dunkerdoodles today?

Not really. If he's scum and made that aggressive an open, then I want to see where he goes from there. I mean... just for the enjoyment of it. I'm pretty sure that's a town open. I don't generally see new players jump from super unsure of themselves to balls to the wall aggressive scum play. Either way, I would not want to lynch him today. I'd say at least 85% chance it's a mislynch and on the small odds of him being scum, it would be fun to watch him for a couple days first.

Apologies for not showing up sooner. I went for a nap yesterday because I wasn't feeling super great and then boom! headshot! (not really), fever sweat and chills. Literally just out of bed less than an hour ago. Hydrating and feeling okay, other than just dehydrated and a bit weak from what I assume was a flu-like bug that had its way with me for ~30 hours. Hopefully when I sleep tonight no more sweats and chills.

IMPORTANT:

I have a modifier to my role which could be seriously negative utility. I asked Titus about it with every "what if" that I could think of to be sure I understand exactly what it is, and it's not really something on the wiki. In fact, I couldn't really find anything on the wiki that I could compare it to without creating confusion. So this is the deal: any attempt to protect me from kills (bodyguard, doctor, invent a BP vest and give it to me, use a re-direct on the killer, try to swap me with another person for the purposes of targeting (we called this a bus driver on my home site), jail the person targeting me, jail me, roleblock the person targeting me) will all fail. If anyone targets me for death, no other role in the game can do anything to prevent me dying. I'm claiming this first post because whenever I show up dead, people need to realize that their choice of role usage could have been nullified by me being the kill target, and depending on what you do, that could turn the negative utility into a mechanical guilty (although that would require a lot of things to go "just so" to happen)).

I have nothing else to claim about my role at this time and would suggest you just take what I said and be aware of it. I have negative utility attached to my role which could interfere with your role. The up-side is that the way Titus answered, it would only ever happen once, so you will know which night to question whether your role worked as intended when I show up dead in the morning.

In your Scum games, do you normally open with a large post like this?

I don't "normally" do anything particular in my scum games (nor in my town games, except newbie games where I post a template IC intro as my first post every time). Every game is a new adventure.

Dunkerdoodles; this isn't a newbie game. I'm not experimenting with something new here. I'm alerting the town to negative utility. This allows town to avoid wasting anything protective on me, and sure ... scum can kill me if they want. There is positive utility to being the night kill in some circumstances. There's also the hedge utility of it. Generally speaking though, neg utility is claimed immediately or not believed. Thus, I claimed it immediately.

I will admit that the byplay was a little bit amusing though.

While I can understand this, you could have this ability and still be Scum. Does your ability make any mention of investigation, etc?

The negative utility applies

only

to stopping a kill aimed at me. I kind of went out of my way to note that in the original. Any reason you are fishing here?

[Drixx]

Side note: holy shit we're posting a lot for a mini, lol.

[Drixx]

It'd be nuts if the game I Townread Robb and find him agreeable he turns out to finally, finally Scum.

Don't do that to me Robb.

Terrible. Awful. Any competent player can reproduce his (using the English gender neutral pronoun which is the same as the masculine pronoun) town game while playing as scum. A player posting in the same style as they do normally as town should be null read for that. Especially if it's simply a matter of posting STYLE. Style is irrelevant. Content is how you catch scum.

I'm not even going to waste my time arguing with anyone who thinks I'm scum

Like I really don't care what y'all think about me.

i don't like this post. i don't know what it's called, but i know it's a common scum tactic where instead of reponding to scumreads and cases on you, you just dismiss it like "you're case is stupid" or "you have no reason to scumread me" or something like that.
i also don't like how he doesn't seem to have any solid scum or townreads, but still has opinions on who to lynch when people ask him.
robb is my top scumread atm, the only thing is i think he softed but im not sure.
i also didn't like dunn's entrance, but he hasn't really done anything else scummy so idk.

i also agree that boon feels off, but i guess it's irl stuff so it's NAI i guess.

wake feels really townie

Dunkerdoodles, that's Robb's meta.

He plays like that.

Don't push him on how he plays.

ok sorry, i haven't played with him before so i didn't know his meta. sorry

Don't you dare cow to anyone. Nobody has the right to tell you that you can't form your own opinions. This is an especially stupid case where people are talking about the STYLE of someone's posts. FFS, I always post in the same free flowing train of thought style, no matter what. Should I always be read a certain alignment because of that? Of course not.

Complete silliness that anyone is even pushing that tripe, and you need to stand up for yourself.

[Drixx]

DunkerDoodles is new and makes new player mistakes. Anyone who doesn't admit they were the same at first is a liar.

[Drixx]

his (using the English gender neutral pronoun which is the same as the masculine pronoun)

gender neutral pronoun is "their"

Pretty sure "his" is masuline only

We should totally have this discussion after the game. I actually had like 3 paragraphs here and then I realized how hilariously useless to the game that would be.

i have a tendency to follow experienced players and sheep them, because often i trust them more then i do myself, then i get scumread for not having my own opinions, then i get scumread for having bad opinions, which makes me go back to sheeping experienced players. it's almost like an infinite loop really.

Develop your style. Stick to your own thoughts. You can't learn if you are just sheeping more skilled players, and sheeping more skilled players will just make you an inevitable mislynch in each game. Please just worry way less about what people think about you (outside of constructive criticism post-game, since during the game you can't know if someone is being constructive or trying to manipulate you) and worry way more about learning to play the game. I promise you'll enjoy it more and you'll get better more rapidly.

[Drixx]

I'm actually on the opposite wit P&T atm. The posts by NotTheRealPaul are very casual, but they're also pretty early in the game. There's also the meme and the thinking that would produce such a response. He's aware of what I claimed and the risks that go with it, and that meme being his response implies he believes my claim and thinks that I miscalculated the risk. Enough so that he made the mental association with a meme about calculating the risk and being bad at maths.

I also didn't find post #377 to be "recycled" at all. Pointing out the distinction in how town or scum would view being voted for NAI reasons RE Famethyst was spot on. In fact, I was pretty freaking irritated in SU2 when in hydra with Cerb we played essentially a perfect scum game, and while there were a few reasons someone could have figured us out, the person we chose to take into LYLO with us instead used a bunch of moon logic and lucked into getting us for irrational reasons that would have lost them the game literally any other time. That elicited the same response from me. Being scumread for things that aren't scummy or are irrational is infuriating for scum because there is literally no way to try and convince the person. It would be like talking in received English at them while they are talking in fart noises.

Same goes later for pointing out MBC showing cognitive dissonance. That's actual thinking going on there. That's someone reading carefully and trying to see who is making sense and who is just making posts that look good.

P&T's ISO doesn't look awesome at first glance. Then when you dig a little deeper, it oozes town motivation.

That's why BFI pushing the wagon makes it yuck, and Dunnstral dropping off of BFI's 3rd vote spot with a naked follow on is even yuckier. It's almost as if Dunn was positioned in an ideal spot if a partner were going to go down or something, and then spotted a chance to jump off. (Pre-flip associatives are awful, but that is precisely what it looks like: Shitty terrible reasoning by BFI to push a new wagon and naked jump by Dunn off BFI following that shitty (and observably wrong) shitty reasoning).

VOTE: ButFearItself

~D

[Drixx]

I think, if I'm not mistaken, I'm the first person to vote P&T all game. At least in the recent stages. How do you define "pushing the wagon" if I'm the only person that has voted them?

And how does it distinguish from you jumping on my wagon that had 4 votes on it - what I would

actually

consider to be "jumping on a wagon"?

You made a case against P&T and then voted them. Being the one making the case, you are "pushing" the wagon in that your reasoning is the sole reason anyone has to vote them. Your wagon did not have four votes on it when I voted you. Dunnstral left it and naked voted P&T. With an absence of any reasoning from Dunnstral, we are left to assume that the vote is based upon your "case", which I already pointed out as flawed.

So why are you pushing semantics and trying to tie me up in talking about what it means to "push" a wagon instead of responding to my dismantling of your case?

And separate question because completely separate lines of reasoning, but also

@Drixx: 1) Do you find often find it common for scumbuddies to jump on a wagon together in consecutive posts in a rather blatant way (a post with only a vote and no reasoning?)
2) Do you often make a point while at the same time saying the logic behind your own point is awful?

Let me give you an example: "I think BFI's vote and Dunn's vote are bad because it looks like two scum wagoning together, but trying to tie scum together is awful"

1.) I don't ever limit myself to expecting or not expecting anything from scum. Scum can and will do literally anything.
2.) I didn't say the reasoning was awful. I said that applying the reasoning before you flip scum is bad. If you actually flip scum, then Dunnstral's naked vote at the first chance to get off your wagon will indeed look really bad. Pre-flip ... there's no reason to assume that reasoning is sound.

And what's up with the straw man at the end there? I didn't say that or anything resembling that. I said that associative tells are basically meaningless pre-flip. It's worth noting that it appears to be a tandem action (and we know from the mod OP that all chats have daytalk, so we know scum can daytalk) in the event that one of you flips scum.


And now here we come to it. Your reaction to my posts is not a town reaction. You are digging through my phrasing trying to find nits to pick. You completely failed to address the main point, which is that your "analysis" of Penn & Teller was not even close to accurate. It's exactly the response I would expect from scum who have day talk. "Don't engage with his case ... attack minutia and try to get him chasing his own tail and kicking up a smokescreen". It's exactly what I would have told you to do if I were scum with you.

Do feel free to address the actual case if you like.

[Drixx]

I pointed out two things which P&T second head pointed out which were quite original. They haven't been discussed a bunch or anything. Your attempt to write off their post as just recycling stuff that the rest of us have already discussed at length fails because we haven't talked about those things much at all.

And certainly evaluating the mindset that produces posts is useful. Why would you call it "tiresome" to go through the mindset that produces a certain output? The whole point of mafia is to figure out who people are based upon evaluating their output. NTRP head of P&T doesn't arrive at posting that meme in response to my "calculated risk" comment from a scum mindset. That's the point.

[Drixx]

I dont like Drixx's interactions with Dunkers because it feels a lot like buddying to me. And I feel like drixx is trying ti take advantage of the bit of friendliness you tend to develop with ur IC in first game and picket dunkers early on.

-ntrp

There's about zero chance that Dunkerdoodles will remember his first game with me with fondness. It's interesting that he came out and attacked me and you're trying to suggest he has some kind of friendly bond and is blinded by me being his IC in his first game on site. If that supposition were true, then it seems pretty unlikely he would have attacked me for claiming neg utility.

Shame on you for trying to turn genuine advice that is, at most, tangential to the ongoing game into something sinister.

[Drixx]

I almost feel bad that I messed up all that hard work by posting my actual reaction (once I got an answer from MBC which was clearly what I was waiting for before I responded) before you when you spent so many exhausting words talking about how I didn't...

Kind of makes all that time you spent seem like a waste Sorry

You got a cactus up your ass about me or something? What's with all the straw man and sarcasm about? It's clear from the timestamps that you made that post while I was typing mine.

Please point out why it's so

clear

that you needed an answer from MBC before you could respond to my case on you? (Even as shitty as your response was).

[Drixx]

And now that you know, you still claim that there was nothing original in the Keychain head of P&T's entrance post. I don't recall much or even really ANY discussion of Famethyst objecting to being scumread for NAI reasons, which is one of the main points that was addressed in that post. And

nobody

had taken the time to actually think about MBC's posts and recognize the cognitive dissonance on display.

Your entire case rests on the premise that P&T's Keychain head made a first post that had nothing original and was just recycling stuff we already talked about. That simply isn't the case. You also didn't even bother to spend much time thinking about what mindset produces the posts in the P&T ISO, and your response to me pointing it out is to try and handwave it away as "tiresome".

Mind you ... this "case" of yours was so strong in your mind that you presented the idea that P&T are the obvious lynch for today, based upon a case which wasn't accurate and demonstrated no actual analysis of motive or mindset by you. YOU are the one who is making lazy posts, especially with your wise ass snark and nit picking to avoid owning up to your shit play.

[Drixx]

You should read all of my posts in monotone. I generally don't employ emotion in mafia. I can point you to an example of one of the few times I have done so if you really want. It actually involves our game mod, and it's one of the very few times I've actually gotten emotionally invested in mafia. You can believe me or not, but if you want to read me, you would do well to believe me. Emotion (especially negative) doesn't help in mafia. I can call your play shit without disliking you; it's simply my analysis of what you have spilled into the thread so far: shit.

My claim came at the very end of page #5. And since some of the posts in question came after that, it seems unlikely that I somehow missed a substantive discussion of them.

And before you tire yourself out trying to find some isolated mention that I missed: you seem to have missed the point. I'm not arguing there was no talk whatsoever. I'm saying that we did not have an actual discussion about it with even a plurality of the game weighing in. The fact that Famethyst is objecting to being scumread for posts which are NAI is actually a really cogent point, and I am fairly certain nobody went in depth about that before, or else there would have been a Famethyst wagon. Scum tend to be way more defensive about being scumread for the "wrong" reasons than town. That's actual analysis.

As for MBT, I do not actually recall anyone pointing out there was cognitive dissonance and that MBT was basically talking out of both sides of his mouth.

As always; I am not infallible. If there was substantive discussion of these things which I somehow missed, I want to read what people had to say. Especially if P&T was really just taking the idea of another and presenting it as his own ... I want to know who originally did the thinking about things that I'm currently giving P&T credit for in my notes.

[Drixx]

PS, lunch break is over and I don't have time to dig through 400 posts immediately. I'll get to it tonight in a few hours.

I really do love the idea that my immediate reaction gamestart was to bus my scumbuddy for no reason, for him to bus me, and then for me to make a case and him to blindly agree to it right after. AND that we came up with it in a scum daytalk.

I'll confess that I'm more in love with the idea of if Drixx and I flipped scumbuddies after this past page's interactions. Mmm, it's really tasty.

You admitted that you were a long time player who was returning after a time away. Partners voting one another early and doing soft pushes to distance is commonplace in the current meta.

[Drixx]

Drixx can I ask you something. In the newbie game I recall town saying that you aren't posting a lot for an IC and you responded with something like "I am generally better on the later it goes and I tend to post more as the game goes on", however this game you seem to be contributing a lot more d1 and just doing a lot more than you did in the newbie game. I'm not nessaceraly saying it's scummy I'm juts wondering my that is.

I am always a more aggressive player outside of the newbie queue. I tone myself down there and also experiment with my game.

I'm glad some of you have a sense of humour. I was starting to wonder.

[Drixx]

Just had a thought. mint berry cruch would be a horrible cereal flavor

Thanks for that thought. I doubt it would be too awful though. I mean ... I enjoy a mojito now and then, and that works well. The tang of the lime up front, the mellow rum and then your mouth gets suffused with mild minty freshness.

Maybe somehow the cereal could work in stages like that? Taste the berries and milk and then after you swallow, just the mild minty freshness left to taste?

[Drixx]

I second Famethyst's question in #492. I wish people would give the reasons for votes, even if they think it's obvious. I need to understand how you lot are thinking.

[Drixx]

Four posts in 24 hours. We've got a wagon close to lynch. Anyone who analyzes wagons/counterwagons and VCA have any thoughts on why the game stalled in the current state?

[Drixx]

@Dunnstral - Are you just dense, or trying to tell us a story? Your vote has been "wrong" through a lot of vote counts. Titus doesn't generally make that sort of mistake. I find it reasonable to assume you already sent a PM about the "issue" and yet the vote counts still show your vote there. The only logical conclusion at this point is that someone has a power to alter votes.

So please explain to us why you keep on complaining in thread and making it

really

clear that your vote shouldn't be where it is, and never going any further? Any reasonable person would have sent a PM to the mod after the 2nd or 3rd wrong VC at most, so clearly you've been told by the mod that she cannot answer your question or that the VCs are correct, and that is info you should have shared with us.

Yet you didn't, and are trying to tell a story to the game. What gives?

[Drixx]

Yes vote modification is a thing that happens. Check some of Varsoon's games, for example.

And Dunnstral, in particular, drew my attention, for a specific reason. The response could have been anything, but Dunnstral went with the least helpful answer possible.

To you, this is townie play?

[Drixx]

Tracy Byrd - Watermelon Crawl <--- my flavor.

You should have seen me visit someone last night but I was late getting my action in and it didn't happen, in case that will help in any way.

[Drixx]

it doesnt and i dont think you should have outted that if town (especially since i said i hid a result)

I've got a limited lifespan in this game. May as well make sure I don't keep info that could be important.

[Drixx]

you know what the national geographic kool aid is right?

I know that the reference to "Kool Aid" or "Drinking the kool aid" originated from the 1978 Jonestown murder-suicide. I'm not particularly thrilled by the implication.

[Drixx]

*headdesk* -- So much AtE.

@P&T - There hasn't been much to say. Having someone basically compare me to a cult leader and murderer sort of soured things for me. They claimed ignorance but I'm not sure how anyone can possibly be ignorant that "drinking the kool aid" as an idiom for being crazy or brainwashed originated from that mass murder-suicide. The claim that he wasn't referring to that rings hollow, since whatever he was supposedly saying that wasn't comparing me to a cult leader mass murderer was never explained. Perhaps it's just me, but if I made a comment directed at someone and was truly ignorant of the origins of the idiom I had used, and it ended up being something like that, I would go way the hell out of my way to explain

precisely

what I actually meant. I would not make some lame comment and not explain. That's what you do if you did in fact mean to use it that way, are surprised the person you were trying to be subtle in insulting wasn't a complete and utter idiot, and couldn't think of any way to talk your way out of having said it.

So yeah ... game doesn't seem super conducive to enjoyment for me just at the moment.

[Drixx]

According to mentalfloss: "The phrase "drink the Kool-Aid" is common in American business and politics. Roughly translated, it means "to blindly follow," and it usually has a negative connotation: iPhone buyers waiting in line for days have "drunk Apple's Kool-Aid," so to speak."

I'll let Urban Dictionary's top definition speak for itself.

As I said in #925: If there really was some harmless other intent behind all of it, then why not simply share what that intent was? Despite your assertion to the contrary, the idiom "drink the kool-aid" or "DON'T drink the kool-aid" are used all the time as insults aimed at various groups or individuals. Just as an extremely common example: Tom Cruise is a well known member of Scientology and is frequently said to have "drunk the kool-aid".

In the absence of an explanation for why it should not be read in the most common usage (by an extreme margin), it seems reasonable to assume the intent was to use it as it is most often used. There has been ample opportunity for an explanation and there has been none.

[Drixx]

They (either head) are quite welcome to actually explain what they meant. The prior "totally didn't mean THAT, but not going to say what was actually meant" sort of doesn't feel very genuine.


As far as Aristophanes goes, does anyone have any reason to suggest the rope apart from inactivity? Please do offer it up if so. I have a reason for asking.

[Drixx]

I never understood why people would decide to skip playing when they draw scum. Being the informed minority is amazingly liberating.

[Drixx]

I think Robb would be a better bet than Ari. I believe Ari had a reasonable reason for being super low activity, and I would argue to give him an ultimatum to put up content tomorrow or eat rope. Town!Ari can be a huge asset. Lurker!Ari is almost always just a waste of a lynch. I don't recall ever seeing him just hard lurk as scum, and certainly it does not seem like something a scum him would do in a game that warns about consequences for hard lurking.

Robb on the other hand has used bluster and dismissiveness as a strategy to avoid any real conversation about him to build momentum, and I agree with P&T that his push on Dunkers reeks.

Consider me to be voting Robb. I just want to see a proper VC before I actually do it.

@mod: VC please, and if you can confirm all prior VCs are correct that would be awesome.

[Drixx]

I'm back. I'm sort of interested in seeing where this P&T thread goes.

[Drixx]

I'm interested in why you are misrepresenting DD as mislynch bait when it's clearly not the case and it was easy to see that in just a few moments.

1.) Click his name
2.) View his topics
3.) Go into games he played and ISO him
4.) Click on the final post he made, and look to see how far along in the game it was and if he got mislynched.

It literally took like 3 minutes to realize you were pushing a bullshit narrative. I was interested in seeing how it played out but other people didn't realize it was a good time to keep info to themselves and let you hang yourself.

[Drixx]

#1080 is basically a scum claim? You don't lynch a cop claim. You make Scum decide whether to kill them or try to wifom us, and if they try wifom, then you lynch him and his result was either a guilty or conftowns someone and forces scum's kill.

Either way scum will be forced to kill someone "scummy". Worst case they kill Ari and we don't waste a mislynch on him. Most probable case they leave him alone and he gives us an innocent tomorrow and we lynch him to confirm his claim, forcing scum to either let a conftown live or kill them. Since Ari will presumably investigate someone scummy, then giving an innocent on that person forces scum to kill someone who otherwise might have been mislynchable. Best case he's telling the truth and they let him live and he gives us a guilty.

In no fucking universe do we kill the cop claim.

@EE - Someone voting Ari please unvote so the scum hydra P&T cannot hammer.

Unovte

[Drixx]

Oh and obviously if Ari is scum he has to either give us one of his partners to try and stay alive or give us an actual innocent tomorrow. Like ... this is really fucking simple. Especially since the claim is 1-shot.

[Drixx]

find it very weird that twice the person that mbc has chosen to have an ability used on, they end up dying before the ability could be used.


I am also

v/la through the weekend

I'm starting to think I can kill with it
I was actually hoping that Fam would be protected.

... so much

[Drixx]

So this is probably MYLO. It would be nice to have a proper VC with a list of everyone still alive. I believe it is:

Me (Drixx)
MariaR
Mint Berry Crunch
Penn & Teller
Robbnva
Zach

I'm pretty sure the remaining scum is in {P&T, Robb, Zach}.

[Drixx]

Zach is lying. Titus made it

EXCEPTIONALLY CLEAR

to me that if anyone ever targeted me with a kill, there would be no circumstance under which that kill would fail.

The other part of my role is doctor, and I doctored MariaR last night and we have a no kill. That's decent evidence for MariaR being the target last night.

But there's no possible way that Zach fired a gun at me and I survived.

[Drixx]

I cannot be protected from a kill "by any means" - That is crucial wording. That means no matter HOW the lying Zach's vig is supposedly worded, there's nothing about its wording that can save me. That would be a "means" of saving me from the kill.

Since Titus wouldn't make that kind of fundamental error in setup, we have a lying Zach to string up.

[Drixx]

My roll, paraphrased: Each night I may target someone and I protect them from one attack, but I may not be protected (and for the last bit I'm going to use the exact words) "by any means".

Zach claims to be some kind of super cop. Not only can he clear people, but he can also find a guilty ... and guess what! If he finds a guilty, they die on the spot. As if that weren't fishy enough (especially considering that mechanical clears are boring and lead to bad mafia play), he claims to have shot at me, and yet here I am still alive.

My guess is that Zach forgot my claim from my very first post and thought that "clearing" me would get a town read and my cooperation since no sane scum would start making people conftown in what we must assume is MYLO.

In any case, his role as claimed is absurd, and even if I believed he had such a role, then there's still the fact that I would be dead if he had shot at me.

[Drixx]

If the shot can only work on mafia it wouldnt work on you so you would have you need protecting from

The restriction of it only working against mafia (or not-town, or <insert restriction>) would be a "means" of stopping it from killing me. A kill ability aimed at me cannot be stopped "by any means".

And that's setting aside that the claim is complete and obvious bullshit. Titus doesn't like cops because they remove skill and the need to play the game, but she gave Zach (claiming to be town) an unlimited shot vig which confirms people as town and kills any scum he targets?

You buy that?

There's a reason he gave no substantive response. He can't. His claim is already bullshit. You buying it is super confusing because I associate you with good intelligent play, so you shouldn't be buying it but you are so much that you're white knighting him.

[Drixx]

^ Can confirm my song is diamond rio meet in the middle

Neighbored Zach N1 and just kept doing it I thought it'd be funny to neighbor my

scum

pal (giggle)

Interesting.

Because

I know how scum intends to win MYLO

and how we win... this accounts for a lot of things. I also said we're not in autowin but I bet they thought they were. I don't have that much more to say.

Because you're scum.

[Drixx]

sorry this isnt a green

Someone really wanted to appear to be absolutely certain that a player who self-hammered was scum. What's the point of making this post if town?

Okay I'm claiming vigilante. My catch is that I only hit if I land on scum.

So you always shoot and have a modifier that makes you miss if the target isn't scum. Sadly that modifier wouldn't have kept you from killing me because it would be a "means" of preventing me dying.

My song's Dixie Chicks - Goodbye Earl

I'm sure that's the fake artist and song claim you were given.

I was neighborized by Maria , we've been buddies for the game.

Relevance?

Maria and I have PoEd a pool down to three. It's slightly different than the one presented so far

Yeah see ... you have these posts hinting that you and MariaR have just solved the whole game but it's in a PT and poor stupids like me don't need to know. Man ... where have I seen that before? Oh yeah ... like every scum ever.


And given the fact that MariaR dropped a gloating tell about Famethyst, to which I replied with a crumb about being a doctor, I can totally see a gambit where you two pretend to be neighbors and trust one another but really you're the scum. Take your bullshit claim of being a Vig who is really a pumped up version of a cop and MariaR white knighting the fuck out of you and this all looks like a gambit to get the last mislynch since the whole game knows I cannot be protected from a kill and thus I've been saved to be the kill to win the game with.

[Drixx]

First of all before I answer a wall with a wall you do understand Boon died yes? How did boon die if not to a vig?

Like if there's anyone you should be suspecting here it's me not Zach.

Thanks for reminding me. Zach actually having a super cop role is not the only possible explanation. Hell, it's not even the only plausible one.

I seem to recall someone really wanting claims badly. Remind me who that was?

[Drixx]

If Titus included an unlimited shot super cop in this game, I can't even think of something I would do to illustrate how unlikely I find that. A role that produces a conftown every night at worst case and kills any scum it targets (removing the need to lynch the guilty), and can do it forever? That's fucking absurd. That alone is an absurd amount of power to give town in a mini. Not to mention a really fucking awful role.

[Drixx]

Are you saying me wanting a mass claim in mylo is a bad thing?

What is unexplained? What will you gain from claims? You already believe an absurdly unbelievable claim from Zach. What are they gonna claim that is less believable than that?

But lo and behold someone claims bus driver or some other way that Boon could have died (Apart from the super cop vigilante who shoots at people and if he misses them they become conftown (to him, and to the game whenever he gives his results, which conveniently he could have left in a "neighborhood" with you), and then the gambit falls apart.

[Drixx]

Sweet jesus Drixx the vig shot only works if it hits scum so the shot would never work on you in the first place

It's not like the shot was going to work and something protected you unless you're claiming scum (clearly not) also do we have another protective or some shit because you being a doctor that's macho is like...What I don't doubt the claim it's just confusing from a setup standpoint
Pedit: Clearly scum has something to counter the role but regardless Boon died so Zach's a vig of SOME kind

Or there's something else at play and Zach is gambiting.

I disagree with you about his shot. If it said he only shoots at scum and otherwise the shot doesn't happen, I could maybe believe it wouldn't kill me. He said his shots miss if he doesn't target scum. That's an important distinction. That means he shoots at everyone he targets. That would make the restriction meaningless when it comes to my role.

Nevermind that it's an absurd restriction. Let's have an unlimited vigilante, and instead of the vig having to be careful to avoid shooting his own faction, let's make it so his shot misses if it is aimed at town, and therefore he's an unlimited vigilante super cop who mechanically breaks the game.

Like ... really?

[Drixx]

A no lynch is stupid. I will simply be killed since it cannot be prevented and it will be the same situation as today.

[Drixx]

A no lynch is stupid. I will simply be killed since it cannot be prevented and it will be the same situation as today.

Yet you haven't been killed all game...

Why would I be? Early on scum may have been afraid I was trying to bait a kill into PGO or some such. Now that I outed that I'm a doctor, they will know the initial claim is true.

And if they just believed it all along, then it still makes sense to leave me alive. I represent the guaranteed kill that can't be stopped when they need the NK to seal the victory.

Do you always pretend to be dumb in mafia games?

[Drixx]

When people are vouching for others because of things said in PT and claiming it is MYLO (the time when town needs ALL info) and they are still hiding shit in a PT, there's scum shenanigans going on. Take it from someone who can point to several scum games where I worked people in neighborhoods and had them hard vouching for me.

[Drixx]

The problem with suggesting I am gambiting a doc claim coming off a no kill is that I

literally crumbed to MariaR yesterday that I had docced her instead of Famethyst

... and Famethyst was my first choice but I talked myself out of it.

[Drixx]

find it very weird that twice the person that mbc has chosen to have an ability used on, they end up dying before the ability could be used.


I am also

v/la through the weekend

I'm starting to think I can kill with it
I was actually hoping that Fam would be protected.

... so much

Sad. So much Sad. (Because Fam wasn't protected). Then doctor emoji and death emoji, which is the emoji version of my role.

---

Just because the mod posted that a particular modifier would be applied a particular way in this game does not actually confirm Zach. Zach gambiting has to at least be considered, but probably Zach is off the table today. The problem in that situation is that if he's gambiting and MBC is his partner, then assuming he's honest for today always results in a loss.

As far as my recollection goes, I believe we only had a single 2 death night. If Zach is scum and had an extra kill to spend, then his team basically played perfect. Killing one of his own team basically makes his vig claim unassailable. He explains away the lack of other deaths by claiming the loyal modifier. Then it hits MYLO and he puts me and MBC as his living targets that didn't die, "clearing" us. I know I'm clear but obviously believe I should have died to his shot (and still do; mechanically speaking the loyal modifier is a "means" of preventing my death, so I should be dead and the ruling doesn't make sense with the wording of my role PM).

So yeah ... Zach could totally be gambiting and if we believed that the question would be whether he would put his remaining partner in the innocent list?


On the other hand, we could decide that the possibility of scum being given an extra kill in a mini is low, and scum using it to kill a teammate is even lower (but not unheard of, if anyone was paying attention to a game that just ended where I was in hydra), to the point where we discard it into the paranoia pile, then:

MBC, Zach and myself are clear.
MariaR has strong evidence to be clear since I doctored her and we had no death.

That makes Robb and P&T the scum among us.

It's

plausible

for sure that MariaR caught my crumb (it wasn't exactly subtle) and worked out that I had chosen to doctor her over Famethyst. In that case, witholding a kill to make me think she is town is a great move. It doesn't change the number of mislynches needed to win, so it's effectively a no cost gambit to run.

So basically it seems to me that scum is either {MariaR, P&T} or {Robb, P&T} with an outside chance that {MariaR, Robb} put on a bickering show in thread as scum theatre for us. Then there's the paranoia scenario.

I think those are all the possible worlds we could be living in.

I think P&T is the right choice for today. I think that if that is correct, then I'm unlikely to be around, but I just laid out all the possibilities so it shouldn't be hard to sit down and decide what is most probable.

Poke holes in it if you can.

[Drixx]

Why did you tr me so hard drixx?

Because I doctored you and nobody died?

[Drixx]

*ahem*

SCUM MOST LIKELY HAVE A BP
SCUM MOST LIKELY HAVE A BP
SCUM MOST LIKELY HAVE A BP
SCUM MOST LIKELY HAVE A BP
SCUM MOST LIKELY HAVE A BP
SCUM MOST LIKELY HAVE A BP
SCUM MOST LIKELY HAVE A BP
SCUM MOST LIKELY HAVE A BP
SCUM MOST LIKELY HAVE A BP

Why are you attached to BP when we have no rational way to know WHAT the mod gave the scum team? An extra kill used in the gambit I described as something Zach could have done is just as plausible. I don't understand the BP thing. I suppose if we assume a BP, that moves MBC into the pool?

Drixx:

And if you're gambiting scum then doesn't it make sense to crumb doc before doing a no kill, as part of your setup for the MyLo gambit?

In no way did you explain why this isn't true. Your crumb doesn't confirm you. Your 1375 doesn't make sense as an argument. How does you crumbing "doc that didn't protect Famethyst" somehow exclude you from no killing as scum to lend credence to a doctor fullclaim the next day?

Why did you tr me so hard drixx?

Because I doctored you and nobody died?

I think she's referring to earlier - you said you doctored her the night Famethyst died.


PEdit: Yes?

The only way I'm not clear is if Zach is lying. If you believe Zach is lying, then say so. If not, then he clears me and I think my confusion at how he could possibly clear me with a killing ability should either make you firmly town read me or else believe I deserve an Oscar for best acting.

Like ... pushing me is basically saying Zach is lying and I'm his partner.


@MariaR - Night 2? Just gut. You weren't my first instinct but something made me swap to you. Last night, after the DD lynch tho? I town read you enough to doc protect you because your frustration at the DD lynch reads exceptionally genuine. It doesn't look like scum positioning. You were legit trying to save him from mislynch. That's frankly a considerably better reason than I have for anyone else in the game (apart from if I trust Zach and believe MBC is clear, which I apparently shouldn't believe even if I believe zach because you seem super sure of a BP for {reasons}?)


An observation: Zach votes MariaR in RVS and says voting for scum buddy. MariaR later made a post (which I quoted earlier) referring to him as scum pal. It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you. Just saying.

[Drixx]

No. I doctored MariaR. P&T is scum. All you have to do is read his posts from the past 12 hours or so.

[Drixx]

MBC was the one who dropped the gloating, and I already quoted it on this page. You're obviously cherry picking and if you're cherry picking, you're not being genuine.

[Drixx]

There's nothing productive in engaging with you. You are in survival mode and making exceptionally implausible assertions to try and make a case that I'm scum.

For me to be scum basically requires Zach to be scum. Do you believe Zach is scum?

I mean ... I literally was assuming Zach was lying when he claimed to have aimed a vig shot at me and it failed to kill me. To the point where the mod had to come in and contradict her own wording and explain that the modifier somehow would prevent shooting at town, even if that town has a modifier that says any kill ability aimed at them cannot be stopped "by any means". I still believe that by the wording given that I should be dead.

Occam's razor. Use it.


Like ... you clearly read my post where I laid out who is clear if we assume Zach is being honest and not running a gambit, and why MariaR should be considered mostly clear, and thus you know that you ended up in the scum pool by PoE. I didn't base it upon any posts you made, which makes you demanding I tell you where you slipped up just a distraction. Smoke and mirrors.

Your REACTION to being caught by PoE has been nothing but scummy. You are giving off a demonstration of grasping at any straws you can to try and get out of the box. So first you got labeled as probscum by PoE and now you are making posts which appear to be frenetic attempts to escape the box.


And finally: stop putting words in my mouth. I never once "refused to consider the possibility of BP in the scumteam". I asked MariaR why she is so

certain

that scum must have a BP instead of some other role. That's literally the very definition of considering the possibility ... I'm literally asking for the reasoning for it.



P.S. - it's common courtesy to sign your posts when in hydra so people know which head they're talking to. The only plausible reason not to sign (other than to just annoy people) is to avoid meta reading.

[Drixx]

The only fault would be if there is a BP and you assume I'm the BP.

Explain to me why a scum BP would claim straightaway that any kill aimed at him will succeed? That would be tantamount to game throwing.

Like if we just assume a scum BP, and you want to suggest that I am scum BP, then you are giving me the hugest compliment ever because there's a huge fucking wrench in that supposition:

1.) I claimed in post #124 the fact that a killing ability could not be prevented from killing me.
1a.) If I were scum, and I were BP then being BP would suggest a Vig or SK which would mean that as soon as someone shot at me and I didn't die, I would be outed.
2.) The first mention of "vig" in Zach's ISO comes ONE THOUSAND posts after I made my claim. There's no plausible way I could know that there would be a Vig and that the vig would just happen to have a modifier that would explain why I got shot at but didn't die, in direct contradiction to my first post of the game.
2a.) The exception to #2 requires for me and Zach to be scum together and the whole thing to be a gambit.

It then follows that if Zach is not scum, then you have to believe I am so stupid that Forrest Gump would be as much smarter than I am as Einstein was to the average person, or perhaps even more stupid than that.

Like seriously ... if I were scum, and a BP, then my introduction post to the game literally outs me the moment I get shot at, and obviously any scum who have BP should expect there to be a vig or sk (or both) in play.

Like the amount of implausible assumptions you have to make in order to conclude that I'm scum is pretty overwhelming. (Thus the reference to Occam's Razor. All things being equal, it's the most simple solution that requires the least assumptions which is most likely to be reality).

[Drixx]

MBC is an absurd choice to lynch today. It relies on the assumption that scum have BP (which nobody has explained why that is being assumed over other possibilities) AND that MBC is that posited scum. In any other case, lynching him gives scum the game since I cannot be kept alive.

And don't say "Scum have bp because vig" because that's not even close to universal in setups with vigs, and this game was designed by Titus. We have claims of irregular modified roles, but we're going to bet the game that Titus got lazy and just threw BP on a scum?

[Drixx]

It's cause your point one in 1400 is full of shit given that a killing role exists that can't kill your claimed ability. I'm not gonna talk in circles. The rest of that post is clear WIFOM. What am I missing?

What is broken in your brain? What kind of fucking moron fake claims that any killing ability cannot be prevented from killing them "by any means" at the very start of the game, if it's not true?

Since I believe Titus was in error to say what she said, I'm probably going to post my role card and eat a personal loss and make today LYLO and maybe the town here will de-ass their heads.

[Drixx]

Out of respect I went and asked what the absolute least damaging thing I could do to be modkilled was, since my intent is not to blow up the game but to get flipped at the cost of personally losing no matter what and thus demonstrate that the mod's wording contradicts what we see, which should make whomever is town re-evaluate the situation entirely. I have been informed; however, that if I intentionally get myself modkilled, it will end the day, which will cost my team the game. So my team and wincon are harmed by what I view as a design/setup error OR a bad interpretation of what my role says in answer to the hypothetical question (in the case where Zach is not actually Loyal Vig and is scum gambiting).

Either way, there's nothing I can do so I'll be prodging for the rest of the game.

I'm sure I will have more to say post-game.

[Drixx]

If it only hurt me then I'd already be mod killed. Nothing disingenuous about it. Either you are incapable of simple logical reasoning or you are scum taking advantage of the mod making the poor decision to make a statement which is having an impact on the game. Either way, I would eat a personal loss to clear it up 10 times out of 10. Unfortunately I cannot eat the personal loss and exit and allow the endgame to play out free of that, so there's nothing I can really do.

It is quite surprising that Titus, of all people, would first make the statement and influence the game's outcome (after SD2 where a mod statement made her appear to be lying scum and got her lynched), and then strong arm me into staying in the game so that the poor judgement of making that statement continues to impact the game.

Then again ... I

probably

shouldn't be surprised. This is the same mod who once mod killed me for no actual reason because scum was angle shooting, admitted that it was the fault of scum who intentionally caused it to happen, and didn't compensate my team (town) in any way. Funny ... THAT mod kill didn't end the day. Clearly my expectations that those situations would have imparted lessons and wisdom were wildly optimistic.

[Drixx]

I mean I have threatened to get myself mod killed before so I can't really blame the guy for it.

I don't advocate that anyone get themselves modkilled out of spite or because they get mad or anything like that. Like ... I've seen people do that in the heat of the moment. My intent was just to eat a personal loss in exchange for removing the confusion (or faked confusion) due to the mod making an ill advised statement.

I mean ... if I go dig up the game where Titus modkilled me, the reasoning was so terrible and it was clearly intentionally provoked by a member of the scum team, who was not in any way punished for it but instead rewarded by getting my death for free. Eh. It will give me something to do. Off to find that game.

[Drixx]

As far as I'm concerned I should already be dead. There's no plausible scenario where a scum!me makes post #124. Scum lose if they trade 1 for 1, and posting that would be comitting suicide for nothing in return. I maintain that the loyal modifier triggers the "by any means" wording of my role, and if you really are what you claim then I should be dead. But let's just roll with the interpretation that it is not a "means" of protecting me from the kill.

What are the

a priori

odds that a scum BP (which is what you are suggesting I am) would correctly guess that whatever role the BP was meant to protect from would have the loyal modifier/restriction and thus result in the claim I made in my first post?

Because in any world where that loyal modifier isn't there, then a shot doesn't kill me and my first post would be outed as a lie and I would be lynched for nothing in return.

If you want to understand what drives me to be so frustrated, try to understand just how logically implausible that scenario is. That claim in my first post, if it were fake, would be suicide in any other setup than the setup we assume if we assume you are a loyal vig. I'm not God's gift to mafia or anything, but I'm also not a total fucking moron.


The other part is there's prior history intersecting here that you weren't around for.

[Drixx]

Nice usage of the passive aggressive picture there. Fruit loops = fruity = crazy. But of course that's not what you meant, right?

And then we have "kookoo for cocoa puffs". Kookoo = crazy.

If you want to go to gradeschool namecalling, at least have the balls to actually say it instead of being a coward and hiding behind a picture.

[Drixx]

I love me some wheat. Cream of wheat is like grits, only it actually tastes good.

In a totally unrelated to game note, you should check your GTKAS.

[Drixx]

I maintain that the loyal modifier triggers the "by any means" wording of my role

Can I ask why you haven't PMed Titus to check whether a disloyal vigilante would kill you? You did say you asked her about everything you could think of, and it's odd that when you found you might have missed something you wouldn't immediately PM her to check if it's bullshit or not. You will get an answer, you can tell us the answer, and this whole thing can be cleared up.

P.S. - it's common courtesy to sign your posts when in hydra so people know which head they're talking to. The only plausible reason not to sign (other than to just annoy people) is to avoid meta reading.

I will sign from now on.

Spoiler: Kind of off topic

I saw the other head of Reasonably Rational (can't remember if you were involved?) having this argument with The Wood Cutters in Yume's Cutsie U-Pick, and found myself very much on the pro-signing side for social purposes - I want to know who's talking so I can get more of a connection with the player. Plus the whole "cohesive unit" thing doesn't go so well when the unit is referring to parts of itself, it's just jarring.

I stopped signing this game when it felt redundant because of how very different our posts are, even for people not familiar with us. If you were having trouble telling us apart you could have told me/us and I would have immediately started again. I'm truly sorry if it's been annoying you, it was never the intention!

-Key

I've talked to Titus as much as possible given her current availability. The answer is that the modifier determines whether a shot actually occurs, and my modifier only matters if a shot actually fires. This is a bit inconsistent with the wording, but WOTM is the only answer I'm going to get.

[Drixx]

VOTE: Mint Berry Crunch

It seems irrational to me to assume that the setup spec of scum having a BP is correct

AND

assume that MBC is that slot instead of just absent town, but I can't even get people to answer basic questions so whatever.

[Drixx]

Titus was playing Xcom2 when the hammer happened. I didn't think to bother her but yesterday when I looked she had been offline long enough for steam to say 2 days. Right now it says 21 hours so she was on roughly 8pm eastern time last night. Reaching out via all contact methods I have.

[Drixx]

Zach was top notch. I actually had decided Zach was town and going to screw up the game because of confusion over my role.