Newbie 1815: Prisons [Endgame]

[NotTheRealPaul]

@BV
Yours wasnt really a scumclaim. Like it kinda was but when I read it and u claimed it was supposed to go in PT it didnt realky make sense.It isnt something I can see u posting accidentally.

Like MWAP just came off as something newbscum would say or gamethrowing scum would say.

[Alisae]

VOTE COUNT 2 . 33 randomiget - 1 ( Skitter30 ) L- 3 Not Voting - 5 ( BlackVoid, osuka, Aphix, randomiget, NotTheRealPaul ) With 6 alive, it takes 4 to Lynch Deadline is in (expired on 2017-09-18 07:27:43)

FOS COUNT 2 . 33 Not FoS'ing - 6 ( Everyone ) With 6 alive, it takes 4 to Lynch Deadline is in (expired on 2017-09-18 07:27:43)

[BlackVoid]

@BV
Yours wasnt really a scumclaim. Like it kinda was but when I read it and u claimed it was supposed to go in PT it didnt realky make sense.It isnt something I can see u posting accidentally.

Like MWAP just came off as something newbscum would say or gamethrowing scum would say.

That makes sense I suppose. Can you explain why you are townreading me here? You haven't really engaged with anything I had to say whereas we talked quite a bit before you started trusting me in the Space game. It feels like you saw JaeReed and skitter hard-townreading me and townbinned me because you thought I wouldn't be a viable lynch in this game.

[NotTheRealPaul]

also it helps thaes that u were putting in most effort at that point and I had a tr on u (I think I did lol)

pedit: im tring ur effort. it helps that skitters tred u as well tho.

ik normally u shouldnt tr effort but this seems like town!BV

atm atleast ur off the table for me. But id like to make it clear that come lylo I'll prob be considering ur slot.

[NotTheRealPaul]

Ebwop last game u also replaced someone whose name I forgot and if ai remember right i thought they had been pretty genuine, if a bit woerd. Like their tone felt pretty genuine

[BlackVoid]

Okay. Are you normally this aggressive as town? How would you characterize your scumgame. Is there anything you'd have done differently if you were scum here?

What is your read on Osuka and what do you think about my concerns with him?

How likely do you think it is that Pepper was bussing Aphix?

[NotTheRealPaul]

this aggressive? like i said it depends. ive kinda taken the backseat now that u and skitters showed up. my d1 was aggressive cuz nothing was happening. I do it more often as town but ive been pretty aggressive as scum once. My scumgame is more passive.

I didnt read uour entire wall just the stuff about me. I xurrently am unsure/townlean on osuka. Mostly from his early D1. I have a few reservations, but nothing said recently has really made a huge impression on me. I'll get to ur wall later for kore soecific stuff. Same with dp/aphix. Ive gotta sleep rn because ACT tommorrow.

Will try to find time tommorrow evening or sunday evening/late niight so we can have some realtime interaction. Im asuming u'll be free around this time on those days?

[BlackVoid]

@Skitter, I got the chance to skim through the game where you and Paul were partners. How would you characterize his scumgame there? Did you think he was more aggressive in pushing mislynches, how did he interact with partners, etc. I skimmed quickly but firsthand information would be more useful here. Also, do you think the things I liked about Paul's play are things he's capable of doing as scum?

[BlackVoid]

@Paul, when you get to it, I'd like answers to the remainder of my questions in my wall. I'd also like it if you discussed all of my reads and not just the one on you. I'll be at work from 4PM to midnight tomorrow but I'll be free on Sunday after 9PM.

[BlackVoid]

These are my thoughts on pages 13 (start of D2) to 20. I need to go to sleep so I'll just post what I have and do the rest tomorrow. @skitter, I laid out my reasons for townreading Paul here in-depth and once you are done reading, I'd be excited to hear your feedback on whether you think the conclusions I drew from them are accurate.

Aphix:

350 - I think the way he described his JaeReed scumread here feels very town. I doubt scum would go out of their way to push JaeReed when they had their hands full with Paul.
402 - This entire post feels very town to me. The desire to get reads out because he's worried about getting lynched in his sleep, the admission that he's not certain about Paul being scum and making sure to bring up that he's scumreading JaeReed who hasn't really attracted that much attention at all.
421 - I liked this response to Osuka's suspicion of him especially since I found Osuka's 418 to be mildly townie.
457 - I think this is town because it would be going a bit too far to insult site meta if he was correctly caught as scum.

NotTheRealPaul:

315 - I don't think this is a bad attack at all. I think Paul wasn't considering that in between those posts, MWAP became really destructive but I can still see why Aphix's initial townread on MWAP followed by a policy-lynch was scummy to Paul. I also think the aphix push in the face of resistance from skitter felt more like town believing what he's pushing than scum opportunism.
332 - If Paul is scum here nakedly quoting his partner, he's got balls. I think it's unusual for scum to be that blatant towards a partner.
338 - I liked that Paul went back to check how the lynch went down and think that the way he developed his attack here looked town. I do think he missed the fact that Aphix was hard-scumreading JaeReed to the point of looking for JaeReed's partners and in Aphix's mind, JaeReed's support doesn't really mean anything because he's not going to get a scum lynch by collaborating with JaeReed to lynch outside of MWAP. So, policy-lynching MWAP would have been the best course of action there.
348 - Reads like conf-biased townie getting more and more convinced Aphix is scum when Aphix votes him back.
351 - How did Aphix change from scum to wrong here? But I liked that Paul was agreeing with Aphix's JaeReed push while continuing to push him. Not a fan of the "I hate being paranoid so I'm rolling with town!Jae" but I think it matches how he treated skitter in our past game when I suspected her.
361 - Thoughts on Tatters mirror mine pretty closely. The insistence on getting Aphix to explain feels like he really cares about the answer which points to genuine scumhunting. Not sure what to make of Pepper consistently being on the periphery of his reads as a third scumread but I think it's reasonable to see Tatters as scummier than Pepper, and his attack on Aphix was well elaborated.
368 - I actually thought the "I wanna get mled rn just to show skitters cant meta me yet" would be a weird mindset to fake as scum but I can see it coming from frustrated town.
405 - Would change NotTheRealPaul's name to TheRealBalls if he's scum here - for constantly quoting his partner the way he is.
406 - I think the annoyance here is town because while scum can get frustrated at getting caught for the wrong reasons, I don't think Paul is arrogant enough as scum to believe that he shouldn't be scumread. Am I making sense? Let me know if you need this to be rephrased.
430 - More balls of steel if Paul is scum here. I think the more likely explanation here is that Pepper is trying to pocket Paul by consistently saying things he knows Paul will agree with.
470 - The "im feeling a bit under the weather rn. ya ik timing is shit.. if u think im scum tryna get out of skitters' trap ur a dick" feels town. I can't see Paul pre-emptively calling people dicks if they correctly scumread him even if for the wrong reasons.

Osuka:

328 - Can you elaborate on your read on Paul, your read on Aphix, and your thoughts on skitter's wall. It's all too vague for me to understand.
330 - Why was Pepper probably town here? None of these reads make sense to me. For instance the aphix read "I think you're town but I'm suspicious of you for no reason other than gut, unless you count the fact that icibalus was super weird - though i'm willing to let that go since you're townier than he was." Nothing here explains what you are townreading and what you find scummy.
370 - I don't agree with Osuka's take on Aphix here. I think the point that Aphix only pushed Paul after Skitter did was a good one. But I don't see what's so "gross" or "super-fabricated" about the first post he quoted (345), nor how 350 is necessarily scum-motivated. I get the vibe that Osuka was trying to align himself with Paul and against Aphix.
288 - Two problems here. Voting just to see "how full of shit" the conf-town is, is strange. Tatters gaining townpoints for the display of "coherence" in 380 blows my mind because it's fairly rare to see a post

that

incoherent. She didn't even agree with your reasoning for pushing Aphix, she just omgus'd Aphix for entering the game by pushing her and said that you and Aphix were her scumreads but you dropped off (why?), then wrote a jumble of words about pairing her two biggest scumreads which I still don't understand. Perhaps you can break down her post and explain what she meant?
412 - I actually like the defense of Paul here and the Aphix vote because he doesn't want a wagon on his townread to pick up.
440 - Can you explain why "doing fuck all to thwart his wagon" is scummy? It's not beneficial for either alignment but if I stretch, I can maybe see town not trying to talk their way out of a lynch thinking it'll help remove a distraction and catch scum in future days. But scum have even more motivation to survive.

Random (MadTatters):

380 - This post is a bit frustrating to read because nothing is explained, just saying that reads became stronger and weaker. Then just votes the popular wagon Aphix. Combined with the MWAP hammer out of nowhere, I get the feeling that MadTatters is just opportunistically going along with popular consensus lynches.
425 - I liked the caution here and wanting to re-evaluate although I don't think it points to Tatters-town that strongly.
480 - Another frustrating post with the same stuff about how her biggest scumreads changed but no reasoning why.
496 - I actually like Tatters' reason for voting Aphix: because Icibalus kept his vote on her even after she explained herself. Whether it's reasonable to place that much importance on it so late into the game is another matter. I don't like how she's giving everyone the run-around when asked for reads though.

DoctorPepper's interactions with other slots:

372 - This vote on Aphix could go either way I think. He could have seen that town were jumping all over Aphix and joined the wagon or he thought that his buddy was under pressure and that he needed to push here.
393 - While it's certainly possible that he's defending a buddy in Paul here, I think it more likely points to Paul as town because the confidence with which he puts down Aphix's scumslip argument would be hard to fake if Paul was his buddy. Pepper would know that Aphix found a legit scumslip and pushing back so hard would be risky. But if he knew Aphix was wrong, he'd have a lot more confidence pushing Aphix for something that he knows is objectively wrong.
396, 397 - I'm torn between whether he's coaching his partner Tatters or whether he's discouraging a town-Tatters from scumreading him by misrepresenting her reads as based on activity. I think Tatters responding by saying "no they aren't" feels more likely town though because I expect she'd change her reads if her buddy was coaching her and suggesting that she should.
428, 429 - I think the confidence with which he's defending Paul and attacking Aphix makes me think they're both town and Pepper is piggybacking on a town-Paul's push on town-Aphix and using that to get a mislynch.
433 - Trying to decide if he's tying a townie to a partner (who he doesn't have to push if Aphix flips town) or is just trying to make his Aphix read seem more legitimate by presenting a possible partner.
498 - More townpoints for Paul here. I can't see Pepper's main point against Aphix being that he correctly caught a scum-Paul scumslipping.

[BlackVoid]

So to summarize, I don't think Aphix or Paul are scum. I hated Icibalus' posts but Aphix really did redeem that slot and while I'm not without paranoia of Paul, I think his play makes far more sense as town and there are some interactive tells with Pepper where he doesn't fit as a partner.

I think scum are within Osuka and Randomidget (Tatters). I'll read the rest of the game tomorrow afternoon to see which I think it is.

[BlackVoid]

Found a recent game of randomidget's where he townreads a dead player upon replacing in before he catches himself. So, that seems like the sort of thing he'd genuinely do and not alignment indicative.

[Randomnamechange]

^when i read up i do it genuinely as if the game was unfolding as i read.

[BlackVoid]

Please post more comments about the game. I'm trying to decide whether your slot or Osuka is the final scum.

[Randomnamechange]

ok its like 1am now so ill read up and post more tomorrow

[Alisae]

Did your votecount back to Shadowverse sorry for it being late

[NotTheRealPaul]

Alisae plays shadowverse? The card game? Ooooooooh

Lol jjst checked in and saw that.

@BV I'll do it tommorrow

[skitter30]

@Skitter, I got the chance to skim through the game where you and Paul were partners. How would you characterize his scumgame there? Did you think he was more aggressive in pushing mislynches, how did he interact with partners, etc. I skimmed quickly but firsthand information would be more useful here. Also, do you think the things I liked about Paul's play are things he's capable of doing as scum?

Right, that game ended and I can talk about it now. Part of the reason why I feel like he's interacting kinda weirdly around me is because of the following, which he said in the maf thread for that game when discussing the difference between my town and scum games, which I couldn't talk about until now:

Subject: Mini Normal 1931 | Mafia PT

there is a marked difference in ur play between the two games. Like at points last game I got kinda worried cuz u were really pushing me with endless questions and I kinda felt backed up against the wall. You cant just ask questions and be kinda nice about it I guess.

He said this about Space when we were both *town*. I was worrying him there when he was *town* because of how I was pushing him. I don't see *any* of that here. Instead I'm getting a lot of false bravado and fake confidence out of him. I'm not getting any sort of worry or nervousness or paranoia or anything about me. I saw that in Space, and he acknowledged that's how he feels about town!me, and I'm not seeing any of that here.

When I said this in the beginning of day 2, that I wasn't getting any sort of paranoia or anxiety about my slot, he said it was because I was conf!town, so duh he isn't worrying about me, and that's what you (BV) said as well. But that isn't what I was talking about; I wasn't saying I thought he should be paranoid about my alignment. I was saying I thought he should be worried about me pushing him or tunneling him. Like, as town, I can go full-fledged tunnel, and I can win 1v1s. I wasn't getting any sort of paranoia about my tunneling, or fear that I might out 1v1 him and get him lynched. Instead of getting worry about the tunneling/aggression towards his slot, there's been this sort of fake confidence from him, like a false sort of aggression, kinda like he's going out of his way to not seem like he's worried about me, when I know that *does* get worried about town!me, even when he's town. This is absolutely something I can see scum!him doing in an attempt to handle me. He's been interacting just very, very oddly around me, given the above quote.

I think his aggression depends on who else is in the game. I don't think that's perse a reason to scumread him. I don't think anything he's done in this game is out of his scumrange. I haven't read your walls yet, but I'll respond to them as I read through them.

[skitter30]

I'll try to reread tommorrow evening. Im taking the ACT in the morning and may have plans for afternoon and IDK when I'll get time. I have homework to do as well, enough that I may not get a chance all weekend. I shall try thoigh.

Im considering replacing out but id like to see this game through. I didnt expect all this homework though, which is why I originally planned to reread this weekend.

I hope the ACT went well <3

Those tests are annoying and evil, and I hope you did well enough that you don't have to take it again

[skitter30]

@BV, regarding your Paul points.

I kinda want to hold off on talking about Aphix/Osuka/RM until they respond to you first, and I'll do DP after this post tonight or tomorrow.

(I'm doing a BV style post! You've inspired me! Yes, this is scum!me trying to pocket you! lolololol <3)

209, 227 - I think these are weird. I don't know why there's a townlean, and I don't know why Paul's suddenly OK with lynching him. I think the fact that DP is in Paul's lynchpool is actually partner indicative - distancing by claiming that he scumreads him/ is willing to lynch him, but never actually follows up on it in any way.
237 - I don't think this is weird to say to a partner, especially if the partner is trying to dissolve townblocs. Like, I don't think this is weird, and I don't think this is not-weird. It just kinda is, and doesn't really point either to or away from partners to me.
244- I don't think the townreads that you like scum!Paul would find particularly difficult to fake. I think scum!Paul here could be trying to explain to his partner (in a game without daychat) that he doesn't need to scumread him, as he's relatively widely townread.
251- this
263- I feel like this is him trying to set up a mislynch on Aphix after MWAP, especially given how he started on Aphix right out of the gate day 2.
280-281- I don't think these are alignment indicative, but instead are just him getting annoyed at the general gamestate. I think he'd say something similar as either alignment.
315- I still don't see how Paul managed to miss how toxic MWAP became, or why Aphix would want to policy-lynch her for it. To me, the Aphix push seems like Paul is trying to capitalize on Aphix's change of mind about MWAP. Paul's push only makes sense to me and could seem genuine if he isn't aware of the context, and I just don't see how he could have done that; he's the person who seems to be following the game the most besides for myself.
332, 405, 430- I counter with this, this, and this. And for 430, how does DP know what town!Paul would respond to?
361- I think the fact that DP is always in the background of his lynchpool is distancing. Like, he's wiling to lynch him, they aren't partners, right? But he never actually acts on it. And I think scum!Paul is fully capable of making up that Aphix read.
406 - I think he doesn't really know how to respond to me, so he's just resorting to, 'You're wrong. I don't know what else to say besides for you're wrong' because he can't really refute what I'm saying. I think this is an example of that fake bravado I was talking about above.
470- I think he's trying to distract me with AtE because he knows I'm susceptible to that. And I think he's a nice dude (<3) which is why he keeps on apologizing for it.

[NotTheRealPaul]

Am I expected to respond to skitters' walls too? Bcuz like thats a lotta walls. Or are skitters and BV just bouncing stuff off each other?

[aphix]

Yeah, if that's town I'm fine with losing.

VOTE: NTRP

[skitter30]

@Aphix: I actually think that last post of Paul's was NAI for him; he said similar things in 1797 when he was town.

@Paul: Um, sorry *winces*. Yeah, me and BV I guess kinda bounce ideas off of each other this way. We're kinda negotiating over our reads of you atm. The second wall is directed at BV, and I don't need anything from you there. The first wall on this page has a quote from the maf chat of that mini we were partners in. You said my playstyle was making you worried in Space (when you were town). Why don't/didn't you seem worried about my questions/aggressiveness here?

Also, how did the ACT go?

@BV: if you ever wanna hydra, I'd be interested

[BlackVoid]

Am I expected to respond to skitters' walls too? Bcuz like thats a lotta walls. Or are skitters and BV just bouncing stuff off each other?

You don't really have an opinion you want to interject with? This whole game, you've been letting me and skitter talk about you while directly engaging me only a limited amount. Do you have any scumreads at this point?

@Skitter - I read your post last night and slept over it. Some of your points made me second-guess my read especially the links from his previous scumgame where he was blatantly buddying you. I'll look again more closely when I get back from work tonight. And I'd love to hydra with you sometime!

[NotTheRealPaul]

@Aphix: I actually think that last post of Paul's was NAI for him; he said similar things in 1797 when he was town.

@Paul: Um, sorry *winces*. Yeah, me and BV I guess kinda bounce ideas off of each other this way. We're kinda negotiating over our reads of you atm. The second wall is directed at BV, and I don't need anything from you there. The first wall on this page has a quote from the maf chat of that mini we were partners in. You said my playstyle was making you worried in Space (when you were town). Why don't/didn't you seem worried about my questions/aggressiveness here?

Also, how did the ACT go?

@BV: if you ever wanna hydra, I'd be interested

In space i hadnt seen ur towngame b4. At first it looked a lot like ur scumgame from comics. Im not worried here cuz ur slot is confirmed...In space I was worried u were scum, here im not. I worry about ur scumgame, i dont mind the aggression from ur towmgame. I think at this point having played as svum with u and played with town you, Im not quite as worried and could probabaly read you accurately greater than 50% of the time. But like in this game i dont need to be worried bcuz bp claim is straight suicide and with tracker revealed ur confirmed.

@BV I have thoughts yes. I was typing them up then deleted cuz i felt I was repeating myself from the past and why bother to respond to old stuff. I was gonna refer to skitters point about my 406 but thats been done over ages ago.

The only thing in there that I also mighta responded to is the fals bravado stuff and like thats essentially a toneread. Like u cant outright tell if im faking the bravery and I cant prove im not. The rest didnt really ilicit much from me though.

Actually, about the false bravado. I dont think im getting lynched this game which is why ive been kinda cheeky/brave this game. Like the only ppl whove really hard SRed me this game are skitters and aphix. Like the one time it looked like I might get lynched the wagon stalled hella quick so I dont think its happening.

Im probably just gonna ramble a but because stuff is coming to my head I wanna talk about. Yea I know im contradicting myself lol. IDGAF. Too lazy to go back and delete that stuff.

Anyway...As far as dp in my tertiary reads, Ive been kinda concerned with him since MWAP bcuz Jae made a really nice comment about dp being lazy with his read. Then he appeared in my lynhcpool end of D1(I think he was atleast) because when I reread dps, aphix's, and jae's isos, he kinda jumped out bcuz he was recycling stuff and i saw others pointing out his lack of like og content. Like I remember ppl saying he was posting kinda safe.

@skitters act went...uh...okay? thanks for asking though.