Newbie 1845 - A New Dawn Game Over

[Lil Uzi Vert]

As I recall I've never been mislynched in a newbie before without the SEs going seriously off the rails so this game really is an outlier in terms of how little thought people are putting into it, but with scum LUV encouraging people to play like shit for strategic gain as an IC and creature doing virtually nothing in terms of setting another example, it's understandable that actual town gamesolving effort doesn't make sense and looks like scum.

I'm complaining to PP after this game. You should not be an IC.

Attacking my character because you’re getting lynched is pretty low. I’m afraid you’ve let your anger mature into bitterness, RC.

[Aviqf]

UNVOTE:

Ok RC is town. Wasn’t sure at the first self vote but now after not getting towncred for doing it and then doing it again I buy it

[Aviqf]

VOTE: LUV

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Not sure how that leads you to voting me Avi.

[RedFlavor]

UNVOTE:

Ok RC is town. Wasn’t sure at the first self vote but now after not getting towncred for doing it and then doing it again I buy it

If RC was town, why would he vote the only person that he knows is innocent?

[RedFlavor]

still waiting for IC post before I do anything else

Wait a minute
tinfoil
This was RC
He asked help from LUV

Maybe RC attacking LUV's character is scum distancing other scum before getting lynched

[RedFlavor]

Sando, my entire scumpool is your townreads.

I would rather you vote me, get my flip, prove that whatever you're doing to scumhunting isn't working, then vote my scumreads tomorrow.

Luv is intentionally giving people terrible play advice as an IC which while disgusting is contributing to a gamestate where people are derptunneling rather than actually thinking or talking about their reads. This doesn't work.

Regardless of the fact that I'm town, no one should be treating today like it was a real day in a real game of mafia. Just kill the three people I said and you'll be set.

VOTE: RC

Not unvoting from here on out.

At least Im not the only person that put themselves to

L-1

now

[Aviqf]

Not sure how that leads you to voting me Avi.

Because I’m sheeping RC

This is a bad reaction

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Not sure how that leads you to voting me Avi.

Because I’m sheeping RC

This is a bad reaction

Why are you sheeping him?

Why is my reaction bad? What would’ve been a good or the correct reaction?

[RedFlavor]

Not sure how that leads you to voting me Avi.

Because I’m sheeping RC

This is a bad reaction

I was townleaning you

But now im thinking that you might be partners with RC

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Yeah the unvote is a bit puzzling but then voting me right after doesn’t really make sense at all.

Have you looked at the basis for RC’s scum reads, Avi? If you have, did you look at them again? Did something click or do you just have a new understanding of them?

[Aviqf]

I look four time

[Inferno390]

Red's progression (or lack thereof) makes no sense to me.
#830 doesn't even make any sense, because what Saul said has no bearing on RC's play.

I definitely feel like Sando's read is pockmarked with a lot of little misrepresentations on me in order to scumread me.
#478 was me questioning both my reads on Saul and Red, because what I thought was scumhunting from Red was actually just him asking a lot of questions and not giving us any real reads. So it looked like Red tying to force a mislynch on Saul.
#533 was me misreading the votecount and makinga calculation on the votecount from there. that's hardly AI, and you're totally taking the quote to make that scummy out of context, where sheep was constantly responding to posts in a way that he wasn't reading posts AT ALL. Which does imply a difference from what I did.
#675 is just NAI.
#220 is more of me going after sheep because the series of posts felt contradictory to me, not because of who said aggressiveness. And if someone had mentioned that Sunset has said as much, I would've said "okay, but these two posts don't make any sense together."
I've explained my reasoning on #617 over and over again, so I'm not going into it here. But this is pretty blatant misrepresentation.

I feel like there's a lot of stuff in his reads on everyone else too, but I'll get to that in a sec.

[Inferno390]

I feel like the meta stuff is just really hurting the game at this point, so I'm just going to point out that that game ended 2 months ago and I was only in the first day, I learned a lot on how to play better from that game, I've been away from the site for a while, and I have another game to read my meta off of which no one is even considering.

[Inferno390]

I'm very uncomfortable with Sando's reads on everyone else too. Perhaps it's just an older way of playing, but to me it seems very misrepresentative of everyone in the game so far.

[Inferno390]

Luv is intentionally giving people terrible play advice as an IC which while disgusting is contributing to a gamestate where people are derptunneling rather than actually thinking or talking about their reads. This doesn't work.

Has it occurred to you that the derptunneling is being done by floundering scum?
That's why I'm putting my bets on LUV/Red team. It looks like they were trying to indirectly push a lynch on Saul, but when he replaced out, suddenly any momentum they had on you fell apart, because you were active and doing towny things.

I really want Rd lynched, but LUV is a close second for me.

[RadiantCowbells]

Guys, talking about your reasoning and thoughts on reads is how games get solved. If you're town in most cases, there's not enough of a downside in being transparent and sharing just about everything you have on your mind with the rest of town to not do it.

Good, normal advice

I don’t think this is the right mindset to have right now. Was Saul a difficult read? Yes, but if you strongly feel the content that you did manage to understand is coming from scum, no replacement can change that.

And also, usually if a day is 15 pages long, it's long enough. I understand people don't like to be wrong but whatever minor information or details you're waiting on isn't worth the inertia it produces to stall the town. Getting it moving again can be so frustrating and hard. Town needs some momentum to stay engaged and active.

Shit advice that contradicts previous advice: at no point has any real case been given on saul from the people derptunneling but there's no effort to encourage talking about reasoning like LUV encouraged earlier in the game. Rather, he's encouraging people to stick with shit tunnels on me that they largely haven't given reasoning or words on because he wants to see me mislynched
at no point should people believe so strongly that someone is scum that they refuse to read a replacement and for an IC to encourage shit tunnels rather than reevaluation from newbies is gross
your win condition does not justify giving people bad play advice and if you can't straddle the line of giving people good advice but still making them lose then you shouldn't IC.

With that being said, I don’t hammer town reads and I never have a problem with no lynching.

like this is on the border but fuck no in context this post was made because you wanted to encourage a mislynch on me without considering other people.

I’m not sure why you’re hung up on me and Creature not engaging you. If someone isn’t being engaged with, it’s either because their content isn’t deemed important to have a conversation about or they simply don’t want to engage with someone they think is scum.

Sorry what happened to talking about reasoning and thoughts on games being the proper way to play the game, or does that only apply when you're not trying to push a mislynch on someone who you know is obvious town if people would actually treat me like a human being? Don't teach newbies to shit tunnel people and refuse to engage with them, I've taken my losses without being an IC trying to be a better role model and that's from a person who is systematically correct enough to justify hardcore tunneling. You owe your job as an IC better.

Attacking my character because you’re getting lynched is pretty low. I’m afraid you’ve let your anger mature into bitterness, RC.

I've said nothing about your character besides that you're doing an awful job as an IC and on that front I've restrained myself a lot because I am really pissed off by your play this game.
That's ignoring the fact that this is obviously not a post that comes from town.

[RadiantCowbells]

UNVOTE:

Ok RC is town. Wasn’t sure at the first self vote but now after not getting towncred for doing it and then doing it again I buy it

If RC was town, why would he vote the only person that he knows is innocent?

How the fuck is this remotely a good line of reasoning? Why if I was scum would I vote one of the two people who I know getting lynched hurts my win condition.
At least as town I can believe that my lynch helps town and there's a clear line of reasoning that I've already given as to why I believe that: why would I be doing this as scum?

I get the feeling that you're just pushing me for a mislynch because you think that you can and that there's nothing actually behind your derptunnel on me.

[Inferno390]

I also agree that there's nothing behind Red's tunnel, which is why I'm pushing him so hard as scum.
I honestly think that RC's vote on herself is NAI, because there's scum gambits on this, there's town reasons for doing this, so it all becomes a big game of WIFOM. Which is exactly what scum wants at this point D1, which would explain why Red brought it up if he's scum. If that's not the reason why, I think it's just trying to reach for a reason to get RC lynched, which doesn't make me fee any better about the situation.

[Aviqf]

I thought his first self vote was a gambit but there’s no way town would do it twice when there first one did nothing.

Especially since the second one was L-1

[Inferno390]

I thought his first self vote was a gambit but there’s no way town would do it twice when there first one did nothing.

Especially since the second one was L-1

This is a good point.

[RadiantCowbells]

Creature why are you still not posting?

[Sando]

#478 was me questioning both my reads on Saul and Red, because what I thought was scumhunting from Red was actually just him asking a lot of questions and not giving us any real reads. So it looked like Red tying to force a mislynch on Saul.

Yes, and the conclusion you came to was the placing pressure on someone who "looks bad" is not a good thing. Seeing someone doing things that make them "look bad" and putting pressure on them to try and determine their alignment is the basic summary of town-play.

#533 was me misreading the votecount and makinga calculation on the votecount from there. that's hardly AI, and you're totally taking the quote to make that scummy out of context, where sheep was constantly responding to posts in a way that he wasn't reading posts AT ALL. Which does imply a difference from what I did.

You have gone after sheep because he wasn't paying attention to what was being said. Vote counts are not hard to read when it's the top of the page and there's been one vote. Vote counts and L-1 statements are also very, very important to get right, far more so than off-hand comments in a flurry of a crazy 1v1. It was extremely careless of you, and also part of a pattern given the 478 of you responding to Saul pressure with OMG STAAAHP! (see above)

#675 is just NAI.

No, no it's not.

I feel like there's a lot of stuff in his reads on everyone else too, but I'll get to that in a sec.

I look forward to hearing it!

I'm very uncomfortable with Sando's reads on everyone else too. Perhaps it's just an older way of playing, but to me it seems very misrepresentative of everyone in the game so far.

Oh..."uncomfortable", ok, good talk.

I've noticed that the references to out of game things is vastly, vastly higher than previously, and that makes me uncomfortable, I don't really know what to make of it. I've never seen someone use IC being a bad IC as a scum-read for example, but people seem to accept this. If RC had made the "claim strat" talk 5 years ago he'd have been instantly lynched, but the format of newbie games has changed markedly since then, as it seems peoples attitudes have as well.

I barely mentioned your meta in my read on you, I've mostly referenced it with Silent, and that's because his read/defence of you with it was absolutely ludicrous.

[Sando]

I don’t think this is the right mindset to have right now. Was Saul a difficult read? Yes, but if you strongly feel the content that you did manage to understand is coming from scum, no replacement can change that.

RC this is in no way shit advice. The idea that you should just give up on reads because the person swaps out is actually terrible advice, which you seem to be implying. Sure, if the read is based on lurking and the person swaps out, then you should re-evaluate, but if the person is acting scummy, you don't just forget that if they swap out. You're basically asking someone to lose information, and information is fundamentally pro-town. LUV even says "content", specifically saying that it's not about lurking etc that is further explained by the swap.

like this is on the border but fuck no in context this post was made because you wanted to encourage a mislynch on me without considering other people.

I honestly thought the "I don't mind no lynching" was far, far worse advice than encouraging a mislynch.

Don't teach newbies to shit tunnel people and refuse to engage with them, I've taken my losses without being an IC trying to be a better role model and that's from a person who is systematically correct enough to justify hardcore tunneling. You owe your job as an IC better.

So while we're on the subject of being a role model:

Most of us know that there are very, very few circumstances when self-voting and/or hammering (as Town) is actually helpful to the town.

This type of behavior should be kept out of Newbie games

, because it does not teach the new players how to play the game correctly.

and

Of course, if you're scum then feel free to self-vote/self-hammer. Self-voting/self-hammering as scum denies the town information and IS playing toward your win condition by confusing the remaining townies and allowing your partner to hide in the confusion.

So should we take you at your word that you try to set a good example? The idea that you're actually in any way helping new players here is utterly ludicrous. I'm comfortable with an RC lynch today.

[RadiantCowbells]

Spoiler: @Sando. Most of the game doesn't need to read this because a lot of it doesn't pertain to this as an individual mafia game. Read it if you need more to get a read on me, though.

I'm saying that LUV knows how to be a good IC but is rather choosing to be a shitty IC because it favours his win condition and he can't bridge the gap of being a good IC and a good scum player at the same time. I'm not saying that LUV is scum because he's a shitty IC: he knew how to give good advice early in the game but then switched to giving shit advice (with the end result of trying to lynch town!RC) that contradicts earlier advice. I don't think it's at all plausible that he sincerely believes that the advice he's giving is given in the newbies best interests and I think that if you stop for a fucking moment and think about what he's asked the newbies to do you'll agree with me.

Do you, Sando, think it's good advice for them to continue to derptunnel a replacement and ignore their contributions if they scumread the predecessor? Do you think it's good advice for them to not talk to people they're scumreading? What he's doing is encouraging derptunneling and given that the current gamestate is a bunch of people, yourself partially included, derptunneling me there's clear scum motivation and it's not something that I can see him encouraging as town.

Yes, I made a claim strategy emulating EM style gameplay that caused Matrix6 to stop being the standard game. But the replacement has even more room for claim abuse.
What do you want me as a player to do? Ignore the fact that I can up my teams chances of winning by using a static strategy?

And I -did- end up not using the bulletproof claim strategy in my later matrix6 games because it demonstrably hurt the investment of newbies who rolled bulletproof.
But I'm not going to not do something on the grounds that it's somehow against the spirit of the game to try to win.
And frankly given that the generation you came from was also the generation of the cop claiming day 1 in newbies with the silent doctor, you really don't have much room to be complaining.

If you want to discourage claim strategies, you should run setups that don't favour claim strategies. As is this one favours claim strategies even more than the one that preceded it, so I will be using them in future games.

RC this is in no way shit advice. The idea that you should just give up on reads because the person swaps out is actually terrible advice, which you seem to be implying. Sure, if the read is based on lurking and the person swaps out, then you should re-evaluate, but if the person is acting scummy, you don't just forget that if they swap out. You're basically asking someone to lose information, and information is fundamentally pro-town. LUV even says "content", specifically saying that it's not about lurking etc that is further explained by the swap.

Less than 4% of the people who play on mafiascum.net should EVER be so confident in their reads that they would ignore a replacement's actions.
That's just facts. Your individual judgement isn't some perfect arbiter. I'm not advocating completely giving up on previous reads but I am 100% saying that LUV saying that you should fucking ignore the replacement because you scumread the predecessor enough is puke level play to encourage. Read what he said again, specifically the bit about no replacement can change that. No one should be telling newbies that having a read that no replacement can change is okay, because that's literally the definition of bad confbias.

I honestly thought the "I don't mind no lynching" was far, far worse advice than encouraging a mislynch.

Okay so here's what you're missing. This isn't about the quality of the advice he gives. I don't give a shit what LUV encourages if he genuinely believes it's the correct play for town in whatever situation. Which is why I said it's on the border. I think it's theoretically possible LUV could actually have believed that what he was advocating was the correct play for town. I didn't expect Virtuoso when he randomly decided to IC to be a good IC but as long as he tried his best whatever. The fact that his shit advice also lined up with his scum wincondition and the fact that it's generally not what I've seen from him in past games suggests that he is in fact intentionally giving advice that's against the townies win conditions in the long terms and that I am not okay with and will continue to be not okay with.

But again, I said it's on the border because this specific post I could plausibly see as coming from newbiebestinterest!LUV (it's shitty advice, but yes I think LUV could say it sincerely) and as a result I am not willing to hold it against him in the same way.

So should we take you at your word that you try to set a good example? The idea that you're actually in any way helping new players here is utterly ludicrous. I'm comfortable with an RC lynch today.

See: my stance on selfvoting used to be an incredibly unpopular opinion but things change over time.
I am not doing town any favours by allowing town to be lynched and keeping myself as a heavily scumread slot.
The best possible thing that I could do for town at that moment was to make an impression on the remaining towns with my flip and move the game forward and selfvoting enabled that end.

I don't selfvote often but I've been doing it for years and I stand by it as the correct move in all the situations I've done it. Except the one time I did it out of true tilt in a hydra.

Am I encouraging newbies to selfvote? Fuck no, because largely they can't determine what the correct situation to do so is. And generally I try to set a good role model for everyone and not just myself, like I linked to you in several games where I said that I assessed my own reads as the best in the game and a specific person as scum but chose to lynch the person scumread by the majority of players instead because that's USUALLY the correct play, but I think that me being scumread here is a very teachable moment because it's so flagrantly fucking wrong.

I am the objectively most obvious town in this game by any measure of towniness, I've tried hard to scumhunt, I've been reevaluating reads, I've been trying to make a good newer player experience, I've shown genuine emotion in how I've responded to things. I should not be scumread. Me being scumread isn't just slightly off kilter here it's mind blowing.

The fact that I am being scumread shows that town are doing something way fucking wrong: and the best thing to do right now is to show everyone that RIGHT FUCKING NOW and make them hit the reset button. I can easily push the lynch onto lynchbaity players that have a modicum of chance of hitting scum, but that isn't going to reset the game. My own lynch is.

I will defend to the end my conduct this game as the correct way to teach newer players how the game is played. This isn't like 1821 where I legit gambited around asking to be lynched which I will admit isn't the greatest newbie game behaviour but I thought I could talk myself out of being lynched and I think that talking my way out of being lynched in and of itself shows newer players how a genuine display of emotion can help them get out of trouble. Which is in and of itself a questionable worldview and I understand hesitation around accepting it, but that's not this game.

There's no manipulation here. I want all the newbies to learn from this game day. There's a reason I haven't unvoted myself following Aviqf's change of wagon and will not do so unless I can hammer LUV. Your opinion and mine differing on how to teach new players given my success rate in retaining new players in my games shows that you're probably wrong.

I will do as much as I can to cater to your worldview in terms of creating a positive environment but your way of playing the game isn't the only one. Don't expect me to play to your norms.

Holy fuck I am literally mastina today.