Team Mafia 2018: White Flag — Day Six

[Llamarble]

It's a random "I wonder how things will play out" thought.
Davsto could be scum still. After Davsto and Eddies as tier 2, Marquis LQ are still possible.
I admit I probably scumread AD more than I should but he should at least be south of null, I think.

[Davsto]

is there anything i NEED to directly comment on?

Lazyyy

LQ that's a good assessment, if that gets more votes I'll vote it but I'm sticking with Marqius for now

very interesting to look back at if marquis or Sauce ever flip.

Why? Just a vague "interesting"? And not even "interesting if they flip scum/town", just "flip"? What an awful post.

Slapping me with a scum role when the last 3 games I rolled scum in were subpar at best ain't the best thing for me to have right now.

This meta talk is giving me a fucking headache. It's just wifom, wifom, wifom, all the way down the tracks.

VOTE: postie

im caught up.

wow i sure am glad you voted for a player where your only reason was gut as compared to the several players you've shaded

I'm a little alarm llamarbale is already making associations around marquis.

I agree with TSQ marquis is pretty null.

You did that. Less than 50 posts ago. Like, not "Marquis is scum and I think I've spotted his team" but you were all "interesting,,,"

Outside of my first scum game, the only one I've really enjoyed, I have never not been lynched as scum on this site.

To be fair that's like, 90% because everyone's been very, very wary of you since you absolutely smashed your first scum game. This is bad self-meta.

Tchill seems town so far. "Alarmed" post counts in favor and scumhunting seems genuine enough.

This is an odd conclusion because, well, Tchill has barely seemed town and his scumhunting was baaad.

I don't know how good at scum Postie is. She has mostly towntells at this point, but when I try to meta her I keep reading GD threads.

You could have asked

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=70536
^ Last one I played. I did okay at first but then as soon as people started putting pressure on me I shut down and became a coasty postie and eventually replaced out. It's the one I menioned earlier so I don't expect you to read the whole thing but feel free to skim my ISO or whatever.

Then there are these from 2016:
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=66865
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=67718
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=65639

I wish I had more to show you from 2017 or something but I haven't played in a while. I feel like I had more than that in 2016 too but I can't find them right now.

On one hand, this is missing Word Sneak 1 where Postie actually played well as scum and was very townread and only lynched because I had an inkling that something was wrong and was cop so got a guilty. On the other hand, upon skimming the games it does appear her losses are to do with not playing well rather than being under scrutiny due to previous performances. Idk how I'm feeling about this whole self-meta thing.

Dunn has a naked vote, nothing to analyze there.
Llamarble is essentially a naked vote, nothing to analyze there.
Postie looks more or less like a naked vote as well.

I dislike how the reaction to the naked votes is "nothing to analyse" rather than "I'll ask more questions". And Llamarble definitely has some, if only, a little explanation behind his vote. Definitely enough to give a good starting point for questions if not analysis.

You've just been really flat and superificial this game which isn't what I'm used to seeing from town!you

That's actually a really good point. Reading through I feel like Lickety has almost been slipping under my radar which doesn't feel right. Too safe would be the word?

I'll need some clarification on that vote at some point, Lycan

It was an RVS vote because I didn't want to leave RVS. I wanted to make a sillier looking vote but I somewhat felt bad for Mathblade so I made it coherent enough to be picked up by their web bot.

Do you usually need reasons for RVS votes?

Whoa I forgot this person was playing. Probably because this is its first non-RVS post all game. Hm.

You mentioned you had a "read" on dunn that was your own. Can you elaborate on that. How did you get a read from a naked RVS vote and then never posting again?

I read it as a wolfy pop-in, he jumped in to vote and nothing else, meaning he didn't care about anything but pushing the wagon

As tsq points out promptly, this is bad. Bad bad. Feels like he decided to want to scumread Dunn and then find a reason I guess? Kinda like he checked his ISO and went "ooh, vote on Marquis, that's something good to push".

[Llamarble]

TChill is at L-1

We haven't heard from them in a while, so let's do that before we proceed please.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Anyone interested in a last-minute actually good wagon on GE for that gross case in #702?

Unvote, vote: Gamma Emerald

[Davsto]

Hm, Tchill is scummy so I'm alright with his lynch on one hand, but then again two of my bigger scumreads so far (LQ and GE) are also voting him and I'm not sure about heavy bussing on D1 in a White Flag game.

Am overall pro-lynch but obviously not hammering yet.

Also I'll get fully caught up within 24 hours of next daystart if Tchill does get hammered soon. If not, I'll try my very hardest to be done within this day.

[Thestatusquo]

is there anything i NEED to directly comment on?

Lazyyy

LQ that's a good assessment, if that gets more votes I'll vote it but I'm sticking with Marqius for now

very interesting to look back at if marquis or Sauce ever flip.

Why? Just a vague "interesting"? And not even "interesting if they flip scum/town", just "flip"? What an awful post.

Slapping me with a scum role when the last 3 games I rolled scum in were subpar at best ain't the best thing for me to have right now.

This meta talk is giving me a fucking headache. It's just wifom, wifom, wifom, all the way down the tracks.

VOTE: postie

im caught up.

wow i sure am glad you voted for a player where your only reason was gut as compared to the several players you've shaded

I'm a little alarm llamarbale is already making associations around marquis.

I agree with TSQ marquis is pretty null.

You did that. Less than 50 posts ago. Like, not "Marquis is scum and I think I've spotted his team" but you were all "interesting,,,"

Outside of my first scum game, the only one I've really enjoyed, I have never not been lynched as scum on this site.

To be fair that's like, 90% because everyone's been very, very wary of you since you absolutely smashed your first scum game. This is bad self-meta.

Tchill seems town so far. "Alarmed" post counts in favor and scumhunting seems genuine enough.

This is an odd conclusion because, well, Tchill has barely seemed town and his scumhunting was baaad.

I don't know how good at scum Postie is. She has mostly towntells at this point, but when I try to meta her I keep reading GD threads.

You could have asked

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=70536
^ Last one I played. I did okay at first but then as soon as people started putting pressure on me I shut down and became a coasty postie and eventually replaced out. It's the one I menioned earlier so I don't expect you to read the whole thing but feel free to skim my ISO or whatever.

Then there are these from 2016:
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=66865
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=67718
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=65639

I wish I had more to show you from 2017 or something but I haven't played in a while. I feel like I had more than that in 2016 too but I can't find them right now.

On one hand, this is missing Word Sneak 1 where Postie actually played well as scum and was very townread and only lynched because I had an inkling that something was wrong and was cop so got a guilty. On the other hand, upon skimming the games it does appear her losses are to do with not playing well rather than being under scrutiny due to previous performances. Idk how I'm feeling about this whole self-meta thing.

Dunn has a naked vote, nothing to analyze there.
Llamarble is essentially a naked vote, nothing to analyze there.
Postie looks more or less like a naked vote as well.

I dislike how the reaction to the naked votes is "nothing to analyse" rather than "I'll ask more questions". And Llamarble definitely has some, if only, a little explanation behind his vote. Definitely enough to give a good starting point for questions if not analysis.

You've just been really flat and superificial this game which isn't what I'm used to seeing from town!you

That's actually a really good point. Reading through I feel like Lickety has almost been slipping under my radar which doesn't feel right. Too safe would be the word?

I'll need some clarification on that vote at some point, Lycan

It was an RVS vote because I didn't want to leave RVS. I wanted to make a sillier looking vote but I somewhat felt bad for Mathblade so I made it coherent enough to be picked up by their web bot.

Do you usually need reasons for RVS votes?

Whoa I forgot this person was playing. Probably because this is its first non-RVS post all game. Hm.

You mentioned you had a "read" on dunn that was your own. Can you elaborate on that. How did you get a read from a naked RVS vote and then never posting again?

I read it as a wolfy pop-in, he jumped in to vote and nothing else, meaning he didn't care about anything but pushing the wagon

As tsq points out promptly, this is bad. Bad bad. Feels like he decided to want to scumread Dunn and then find a reason I guess? Kinda like he checked his ISO and went "ooh, vote on Marquis, that's something good to push".

Welcome to the towny pile.

[MathBlade]

Votecount 1.24

Tchill13(7)

~ Thestatusquo, northsidegal, LicketyQuickety, Dunnstral, Gamma Emerald, Lycanfire, Llamarble

northsidegal(1)

~ Marquis

Llamarble(1)

~ Ranmaru

Gamma Emerald(2)

~ ActionDan , Cogito Ergo Sum

EddieFenix(1)

~ Postie

Davsto(1)

~ Tchill13


Not Voting (3): Davsto, EddieFenix

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2018-02-05 21:00:00)

MOD NOTES

Ranmaru replaces Sauce.
Checks for prods etc coming late tonight.

**This vote count was edited to capture Cogito Ergo Sum’s Unvote/Vote**

[Thestatusquo]

Sup Ranmaru.

I can't begin to express how happy I am that you are not vonflare.

[MathBlade]

Whoops ran VC before that post fixing.

[MathBlade]

VC has been fixed.

[Gamma Emerald]

@Davsto I haven't done any ISO runs of people other than Eddie Sauce Chilly and LQ
Also not switching since I want to play with Ranmaru

[LicketyQuickety]

UNVOTE:

Nope, not ready to end the day just yet.

[Llamarble]

Anyone interested in a last-minute actually good wagon on GE for that gross case in #702?

Unvote, vote: Gamma Emerald

It was pretty dubious, wasn't it. Definitely made me doubt my townread on him and remove him from the upper tier townies.
I'm not as ready to welcome Davsto to the towny pile as TSQ, I think he would be about as good a competing wagon as GE.
Also I think really I was intending to discourage Eddie from just randomly hammering, as if he's town and does that, that sends town down a bad path.
If he's scum I doubt he'll get far anyway.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'll try to explain my feelings about LQ with a specific string of interactions.

(If you are town, we are on the same team, so pls help)
Anyway the reason I woke myself up was I got paranoid about Postie and ISOed her in bed and I can't remember why she is town.
Mostly I just see a good player playing the game. Solid probability of town because game loaded with town but not the obvtown I was hoping.
TSQ is take it to the bank never lynch town though because he got frustrated with me and tried to pull me more actively into the game.(which worked). I will ISO him again sometime to make sure but he and Gamma are town 1 and town 2 and NSG has made fakeable posts but they have also been good; gets exhausting to continue to produce moderate grade town tells like that as scum so I think she can be town 3.

OK, this sounds like you are trying to put more effort into getting your TRs correct than your SRs. What's the Town motivation for that? Have you even bothered to ISO me, your strongest SR?

First, this talks down the playstyle of townhunting. Second, he gets up in Llamerble's face about the read, trying to dig for reasons.

OK, this sounds like you are trying to put more effort into getting your TRs correct than your SRs. What's the Town motivation for that? Have you even bothered to ISO me, your strongest SR?

I've ISOed you a couple times.
I don't have a grand plan for my reading order.
I was literally falling asleep and thought "whoah, why am I townreading Postie again?" and got up to check.

If you have ISO'd me a couple of times, I find it very strange that you are Scum reading me for just one particular thing i.e. my engagement with shea.

Following the second point of the last post in the sequence, LQ accuses Llamarble of their read not being valid since it only references one part of their play as scummy. First, that may not be the case and that could just be their best way of stating things, second, I don't see anything wrong with that, people can doubt townreads based of small parts of a person's play, so it makes sense reads could be formed from them too.

(If you are town, we are on the same team, so pls help)
Anyway the reason I woke myself up was I got paranoid about Postie and ISOed her in bed and I can't remember why she is town.
Mostly I just see a good player playing the game. Solid probability of town because game loaded with town but not the obvtown I was hoping.
TSQ is take it to the bank never lynch town though because he got frustrated with me and tried to pull me more actively into the game.(which worked). I will ISO him again sometime to make sure but he and Gamma are town 1 and town 2 and NSG has made fakeable posts but they have also been good; gets exhausting to continue to produce moderate grade town tells like that as scum so I think she can be town 3.

OK, this sounds like you are trying to put more effort into getting your TRs correct than your SRs. What's the Town motivation for that? Have you even bothered to ISO me, your strongest SR?

what's the point of scum "getting town reads right" at all? isn't the literal only motivation for getting a town read being town? this game is mountainous. scum doesn't need town reads.

You are assuming I am SRing Llama for that.

While TSQ's theory is very wrong imo (scum needs to have townreads to look like they're actually playing) This seems a bit confrontational, like LQ is trying to get in TSQ's face with the fact he made an incorrect assumption.

Like that vibe becomes even stronger with the conclusion.

It's another reason I think you're likely to be scum.

You keep trying to subtly discredit scum reads on you. And I just mean like, argue and dispute arguments, because theres obviously town motivation to do that. What I mean is you keep trying to weasel around people scum reading you. One example of it is trying to cast all the people scum reading you as not understanding how you play, and saying they were doing so because they didn't like you playing mechanically, when in fact doing so was not the reason I had stated I was scum reading you, nor do I think its a fair characterization of the reason others were.

Similarly, in this post you seem to be suggesting that llama has not done the work, and subtly implying that his reads on you aren't to be trusted. At no point has llama said or even implied he hasn't read your iso, so you throwing it out there like that reads to me as an attempt to discredit his arguments instead of trying to interact with them.

It's disingenuous. You're not making good faith arguments.

So... are you trying to argue to me why I am Scum or what?

And I do defend myself as Town, look it up. Also, the distinction you made regarding fighting against your own lynch doesn't even exist IMO.

I am not implying anything by questioning Llama, I am pointing out what doesn't make sense to me. But sure, label that as a reason to SR me.

Frankly, you are fucking horrible at understanding my motivations, shea.

You know the "why are you arguing with me you think I'm scum" logic is pretty goddamn stupid. Town are uninformed, and scumreads are not 100%. By engaging, you attempt to get more info about them and see if your read might be wrong. There's also the fact LQ seems very up in arms about the scumread on him. Also the last line seems like ad hom.

So having looked at this, my reasoning is such: LQ seems way to concerned over the scumread on him, is getting in people's faces about it, and it feels like he's not really working to guide people to someone else, he's just trying to make them think they're wrong.

Yeah, I addressed this earlier. This is just how I react to SRs on me, TSQ and Chill should be able to confirm this since they saw me do it as Town.

[LicketyQuickety]

@Llama,

You talk about what your reads are a lot, but you rarely talk about how you got those reads. Why is that?

[Llamarble]

I tend to play very holistically, I'll look at someone's entire ISO and think to myself "is this a scum ISO or a town ISO"
Or at the entire game and "is this a game where CES and AD and Tchill are the scumteam?
That being said, I think I've shared quite a few specific things that have influenced my reads if you look through.

[LicketyQuickety]

I tend to play very holistically, I'll look at someone's entire ISO and think to myself "is this a scum ISO or a town ISO"
Or at the entire game and "is this a game where CES and AD and Tchill are the scumteam?
That being said, I think I've shared quite a few specific things that have influenced my reads if you look through.

So you've colored in a few things with a little detail. That doesn't make me think "I can see Llama's thought process here and it looks Town motivated". If you don't know what you have been doing wrong in this game (given its a mountainous setup) then you should probably be playing a different game.

This whole "I read X player as Scum and Y player as Town" with no explanation shouldn't get anyone to TR you, period.

[Thestatusquo]

I tend to play very holistically, I'll look at someone's entire ISO and think to myself "is this a scum ISO or a town ISO"
Or at the entire game and "is this a game where CES and AD and Tchill are the scumteam?
That being said, I think I've shared quite a few specific things that have influenced my reads if you look through.

So you've colored in a few things with a little detail. That doesn't make me think "I can see Llama's thought process here and it looks Town motivated". If you don't know what you have been doing wrong in this game (given its a mountainous setup) then you should probably be playing a different game.

This whole "I read X player as Scum and Y player as Town" with no explanation shouldn't get anyone to TR you, period.

This is more well poisoning.

"Colored in a few things with a little detail" is not even a remotely reasonable description of what llamarble says he does.

[LicketyQuickety]

I tend to play very holistically, I'll look at someone's entire ISO and think to myself "is this a scum ISO or a town ISO"
Or at the entire game and "is this a game where CES and AD and Tchill are the scumteam?
That being said, I think I've shared quite a few specific things that have influenced my reads if you look through.

So you've colored in a few things with a little detail. That doesn't make me think "I can see Llama's thought process here and it looks Town motivated". If you don't know what you have been doing wrong in this game (given its a mountainous setup) then you should probably be playing a different game.

This whole "I read X player as Scum and Y player as Town" with no explanation shouldn't get anyone to TR you, period.

This is more well poisoning.

"Colored in a few things with a little detail" is not even a remotely reasonable description of what llamarble says he does.

You're either confbiasing me or Scum so I don't really care about your opinion.

[Ranmaru]

Hello Shea, Gamma, Postie, Action Dan, LQ, CES, nice to see you all again. Nice to meet everyone else. I will catch up tonight after work. I am glad to be a part of this.

[LicketyQuickety]

I am concerned that no one is defending Chill. It gives me a bad feeling.

[LicketyQuickety]

Huh, that was pretty easy.
VOTE: Postie
I'm a little curious if you're intentionally obvscum
Might be worth lynching even if intentional though

Was this a serious post?

[Thestatusquo]

Anyone interested in a last-minute actually good wagon on GE for that gross case in #702?

Unvote, vote: Gamma Emerald

It was pretty dubious, wasn't it. Definitely made me doubt my townread on him and remove him from the upper tier townies.
I'm not as ready to welcome Davsto to the towny pile as TSQ, I think he would be about as good a competing wagon as GE.
Also I think really I was intending to discourage Eddie from just randomly hammering, as if he's town and does that, that sends town down a bad path.
If he's scum I doubt he'll get far anyway.

I like how that post of his picks down a deeper level into things that had already been discussed. He's not looking surface level at all imo.

[Thestatusquo]

UNVOTE:

Nope, not ready to end the day just yet.

If tchill is a scum read, what more exactly do you want?

I ask this partially in game and partially out of game, because honestly I see stuff like this all the time where people are like "welp, we have 5 days left so we can't hammer." which I think is silly. I've already gotten about as much reading done as I can without flips imo, and I really would just prefer to get some and then go from there.

The only thing I really want before day end is for davsto and ranmaru to finish reading the thread and go from there.

If that's what you meant than carry on.

[LicketyQuickety]

UNVOTE:

Nope, not ready to end the day just yet.

If tchill is a scum read, what more exactly do you want?

I ask this partially in game and partially out of game, because honestly I see stuff like this all the time where people are like "welp, we have 5 days left so we can't hammer." which I think is silly. I've already gotten about as much reading done as I can without flips imo, and I really would just prefer to get some and then go from there.

The only thing I really want before day end is for davsto and ranmaru to finish reading the thread and go from there.

If that's what you meant than carry on.

It has more to do with the fact that there is like zero resistance to this wagon on Chill. That is what I am looking at. Ending day this early is also time wasted.