Team Mafia 2018: White Flag — Day Six

[Davsto]

Hello everyone! Apparently I'm young and beautiful, but only one of them is actually true. It's up to you which.

But yeh it's 10PM here so no actual post from me but tomorrow is a sunday so I'll be catching up the best I can then. I'd ask questions but I have a feeling that the response to literally every one would be "you'd know if you read the game" so I'll do that first.

I recognise a few names so yeh, should be fun. Watch out, Postie.

[Davsto]

here we go

[Davsto]

I'll probably try and make a post for every 5 pages or something like that idk I'm going into this blind and haven't looked at my TeamPT yet to avoid confbias because I don't want to go into this game already having decided who is scum and then potentially ignoring other candidates

[Davsto]

that's posturing if i've ever seen it.

VOTE: llamarble

I know everyone has already touched on this but it is a really bad entrance from north here. Trying too hard to be "making a serious effort" in response to a joke but also not actually making that much effort what with the lack of questioning.

he forces a read to a) pretend like he's generating useful content and b) stagnate things by ending rvs early. moreover, i think in general a forced entrance like that is just more likely to come from self-conscious scum than from town.

This has got to be intentional or irony in some way right? Right?

25 Offends me, but that's not why Marquis is scum #2
I'd probably have forced something, but then there were 4 scumtells in a 3 post ISO.
Is that density even beatable? "Honestly this is the first post where's the spam I was pregamethreadwatching for" might do it?

Wait Llamarble's first post wasn't a joke? I don't know what's going on here. Hopefully it becomes more clear as it goes on.

Honestly is a word probably more used by scum, at least when it looks like that.
And yeah, I think scum might have their eyes on the start time a bit more particularly since we didn't have to confirm roles.
That's probably significant enough for us to prefer a lynch on one of the first-hour posters.
I don't like "where's all the spam" either. Noise is scummy (eventually).
F...first has scummy cadence too. Did we ever calculate whether ellipses are just a scumtell? Doesn't matter.
Hypemention is minor towntell but not enough to avoid lynch.

I didn't like Marquis' first couple posts either; I forgot about that.

It has not yet become more clear.

if i was scum i definitely would have lurked out the beginning of the game – activity is probably, for the most part, meaningless

These are two seemingly contradictory statements side-by-side, feels like a defence that's trying to cover too many bases. I'm not liking this player so far.

Sorting me is pointless, either I'll get nightkilled immediately or we'll win. Well, both is probably the most likely outcome.
(Or I'm scum and you can autolynch me a day before lylo)
Marquis is making a grand spectacle of trying to get help from his teammates.
EddieFenix totally picked the scum role PM
You're accomodating and full-breakdowny

oh no you're going to be one of those players aren't you

Keychain now also agrees that northsidegal wouldn't pick scum and has provided this game as evidence, highlighting this post.

I think I disagree? Nowhere in the linked post does nsg claim to be bad at scum - if anything, they said they don't want that particular game to be taken "as an indication of how good i am at mafia" and that "things aren't usually like this" - that doesn't scream "I would never pick mafia" to me.

i didn't believe that he really found something, hence my saying that his entrance was forced (kind of like how your questions feel).

Okay, and the scum motivation behind him lying about having found something is what?

he forces a read to a) pretend like he's generating useful content and b) stagnate things by ending rvs early. moreover, i think in general a forced entrance like that is just more likely to come from self-conscious scum than from town. that's not to say that i believe that he's necessarily scum or that any of those were necessarily his strategy – just that i think it's likely enough to warrant moving my vote while we're still in rvs.

Hey guys! Back from out of town and stuff.

Don't like this post. In general, town is best served by existing the RVS as quickly as possible. So often times town pushes in RVS ARE ridiculous on face and ARE forced. I would expect a town player who is earnestly attempting to create information to read much the same as a scum player who is trying to "fake it" because definitionally we have no information to attack.

On the other hand, I find scum to have an incentive to hide in RVS and use it to be non-accountable for their actions therein. Like, for instance, saying things like "while we're still in RVS" as justification for a vote.

@lla – if i was scum i definitely would have lurked out the beginning of the game – activity is probably, for the most part, meaningless (so is everything else you mentioned).

Wifom self meta ahoyhoy.

So, VOTE: Northsidegal

oh no i agree with tsq
Although not a big fan of this post because it feels a bit too late in the game to have only made this observation (an observation on a single player's first page posts) when catching up.

Here ye! Here ye, scummy folk!

Oh fuck me

OK, I am caught up, feel free to fire questions at me.

Is this a scumclaim. What make you so special that anyone needs to ask you instead of the other way around --maybe it's your catch-up posts, let's investigate-- are you scum?

Oh phew he is playing properly he just had an odd first post. Panic over.

OK, I am caught up, feel free to fire questions at me.

Is this a scumclaim. What make you so special that anyone needs to ask you instead of the other way around --maybe it's your catch-up posts, let's investigate-- are you scum?

So I ask people to ask me questions and the best you can come up with is "Are you Scum?"

I thought your OP was incredibly Scummy, but I held off judgement on that because I was only working off one post.

Why did I say people can ask me questions?
Because People don't understand what i am saying a lot of the time. And since IDK what people understand about what I am saying and what I am not, I suggest people ask me questions so that my thought process is more open with people.

This shows your bias towards how you generally see these players in relation to what alignment they could be and nothing more. That said, you are all over the place and I can see where this would come from Scum trying to WIFOM Town into oblivion.

Which is why you propel the wifom, place it more prominently.

This shows your bias towards how you generally see these players in relation to what alignment they could be and nothing more. That said, you are all over the place and I can see where this would come from Scum trying to WIFOM Town into oblivion.

Which is why you propel the wifom, place it more prominently.

So are these TRs or SRs of these players?

Not a good sign if you can't tell and don't want to find out specifically, instead post a general 'wut'.

I find it slightly odd that you quote the last thing I said to ask me if I am Scum and then double back to analyze what I actually said earlier and try to infer a motivation behind it. This tells me that you are Scum reading me before actually gathering any information on me, which is Scummy because it shows that your trying to sort me is not in earnest.

VOTE: Sauce

LQ looking town to me here

[Davsto]

I'll have questions at the end btw it's just kinda pointless to make them when I'm not caught up because they've probably already been asked, and answered too if I'm lucky

[Davsto]

Gonna do some homework to reward me for that vast effort before returning promptly

[Davsto]

I have more homework than expected so I should be able to get another 5 pages of catching-up done later tonight and then I'm done for the day and will be continuing tomorrow

[Davsto]

oh no looks like i'll have to continue catch up tomorrow

I just want to be thorough rather than just skim and have no idea what I actually think of anyone

UNVOTE:

Marquis hasn't really rubbed me up the wrong way as of page 5 soyeh

[Davsto]

5 out of 6 posts davsto made are devoid of content, btw. Withholding his vote until he's supposedly read the whole thread doesn't look good, especially when he townreads Liquety too and has no apparent reason not to sheep him onto Tchill.

I also don't have any reason

to

sheep him onto Tchill. Just because I think he's town doesn't mean I think he's right. I'd never just vote someone because I "have no reason not to", and I have no reason to scum (or town)read Tchill because he'd made literally one (1) post by page five.

[Davsto]

5 out of 6 posts davsto made are devoid of content, btw. Withholding his vote until he's supposedly read the whole thread doesn't look good, especially when he townreads Liquety too and has no apparent reason not to sheep him onto Tchill.

I also don't have any reason

to

sheep him onto Tchill. Just because I think he's town doesn't mean I think he's right. I'd never just vote someone because I "have no reason not to", and I have no reason to scum (or town)read Tchill because he'd made literally one (1) post by page five.

Ok but why are you only at page 5?

I like to make long, detailed lookthroughs rather than just skimming, and this takes time, and I don't always have that time.

Why are you taking time to respond to the thread before you continue reading the game?

Because that only takes a minute and stops (a) me responding five pages late and (b) people going "Hmm you have time to make big catch up posts but not answer my little question?"

This is a very small game compared to all the others, and you chose to replace in. You should be able to at least skim through in under an hour. You doing this is more valuable to the town than literally any response you could make to sauce rn.

You'd rather I "skim through in under an hour" and not really give anyone any idea of my thought processes or even be that sure of my reads than take my time going through everything? Fuck that lmao.[/quote]

Please just read the god damned thread. I don't understand why people replace into games and then don't read the thread.

This is mixed signals to me? You want me to read the thread but also skim it which, surprise surprise, will cause me to miss key things? I don't get this.

[Davsto]

Like, you can't have your cake and eat it. Would you rather I have already finished catching up and reading or for me to actually have "read the game" and know what's going on? It's one or the other.

[Davsto]

No I'm just pointing out you're complaining about one thing but if I did what you said then the result would be something I'd dislike and that you'd complain about even more.

And I am reading the thread. Right now. Want a screenshot of proof?

[Davsto]

No I'm just pointing out you're complaining about one thing but if I did what you said then the result would be something I'd dislike and that you'd complain about even more.

And I am reading the thread. Right now. Want a screenshot of proof?

please don't do that.

I'm sorry for being a bit abrasive about it but it's really irritating that I am making a fair effort to catch up with thorough posts and you've got nothing better to do than complain that I'm not doing it the same speed as you would. It feels like you've picking at something rather irrelevant.

I have been having general issues with concentration recently, so my preferred method of catching up is making those big catchup posts, to make sure I read carefully and actually get a good idea in my head of what's going on. If I skimmed, I'd be useless and not have much of a clue. I'm responding to people who reference me now because that's literally only a minute wasted, yet you're acting like I'm doing that instead of catching up (when generally I was doing it at the same time).

I hope that explains it a bit better, and that you'll start trying to read people again instead of criticising me for how I'm choosing to play.

[Davsto]

well i had college today and had my gf over until now because she was feeling down and needed support so i'm gonna say no but i'm gonna get to page 10

[Davsto]

is there anything i NEED to directly comment on?

Lazyyy

LQ that's a good assessment, if that gets more votes I'll vote it but I'm sticking with Marqius for now

very interesting to look back at if marquis or Sauce ever flip.

Why? Just a vague "interesting"? And not even "interesting if they flip scum/town", just "flip"? What an awful post.

Slapping me with a scum role when the last 3 games I rolled scum in were subpar at best ain't the best thing for me to have right now.

This meta talk is giving me a fucking headache. It's just wifom, wifom, wifom, all the way down the tracks.

VOTE: postie

im caught up.

wow i sure am glad you voted for a player where your only reason was gut as compared to the several players you've shaded

I'm a little alarm llamarbale is already making associations around marquis.

I agree with TSQ marquis is pretty null.

You did that. Less than 50 posts ago. Like, not "Marquis is scum and I think I've spotted his team" but you were all "interesting,,,"

Outside of my first scum game, the only one I've really enjoyed, I have never not been lynched as scum on this site.

To be fair that's like, 90% because everyone's been very, very wary of you since you absolutely smashed your first scum game. This is bad self-meta.

Tchill seems town so far. "Alarmed" post counts in favor and scumhunting seems genuine enough.

This is an odd conclusion because, well, Tchill has barely seemed town and his scumhunting was baaad.

I don't know how good at scum Postie is. She has mostly towntells at this point, but when I try to meta her I keep reading GD threads.

You could have asked

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=70536
^ Last one I played. I did okay at first but then as soon as people started putting pressure on me I shut down and became a coasty postie and eventually replaced out. It's the one I menioned earlier so I don't expect you to read the whole thing but feel free to skim my ISO or whatever.

Then there are these from 2016:
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=66865
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=67718
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=65639

I wish I had more to show you from 2017 or something but I haven't played in a while. I feel like I had more than that in 2016 too but I can't find them right now.

On one hand, this is missing Word Sneak 1 where Postie actually played well as scum and was very townread and only lynched because I had an inkling that something was wrong and was cop so got a guilty. On the other hand, upon skimming the games it does appear her losses are to do with not playing well rather than being under scrutiny due to previous performances. Idk how I'm feeling about this whole self-meta thing.

Dunn has a naked vote, nothing to analyze there.
Llamarble is essentially a naked vote, nothing to analyze there.
Postie looks more or less like a naked vote as well.

I dislike how the reaction to the naked votes is "nothing to analyse" rather than "I'll ask more questions". And Llamarble definitely has some, if only, a little explanation behind his vote. Definitely enough to give a good starting point for questions if not analysis.

You've just been really flat and superificial this game which isn't what I'm used to seeing from town!you

That's actually a really good point. Reading through I feel like Lickety has almost been slipping under my radar which doesn't feel right. Too safe would be the word?

I'll need some clarification on that vote at some point, Lycan

It was an RVS vote because I didn't want to leave RVS. I wanted to make a sillier looking vote but I somewhat felt bad for Mathblade so I made it coherent enough to be picked up by their web bot.

Do you usually need reasons for RVS votes?

Whoa I forgot this person was playing. Probably because this is its first non-RVS post all game. Hm.

You mentioned you had a "read" on dunn that was your own. Can you elaborate on that. How did you get a read from a naked RVS vote and then never posting again?

I read it as a wolfy pop-in, he jumped in to vote and nothing else, meaning he didn't care about anything but pushing the wagon

As tsq points out promptly, this is bad. Bad bad. Feels like he decided to want to scumread Dunn and then find a reason I guess? Kinda like he checked his ISO and went "ooh, vote on Marquis, that's something good to push".

[Davsto]

Hm, Tchill is scummy so I'm alright with his lynch on one hand, but then again two of my bigger scumreads so far (LQ and GE) are also voting him and I'm not sure about heavy bussing on D1 in a White Flag game.

Am overall pro-lynch but obviously not hammering yet.

Also I'll get fully caught up within 24 hours of next daystart if Tchill does get hammered soon. If not, I'll try my very hardest to be done within this day.

[Davsto]

I'm changed my mind and won't be catching up with the game from scratch and will just play with the current time

[Davsto]

That was a lie to cause temporary infuriating in tsq. Here's pages 11-15, a bit less detailed and full but I'm tired af today

What do you think about the parts of the post (most of it) that aren't directed at you?

Well that's an interesting way to sidestep what I said.

What I see is lack of consistency into the methodology to get the reads that Reck is representing. In the first case, Reck is using a mind meld read. In the second, he is using a read based on play. And in the third he is using a meta read. So it's quite confusing why Reck is using three methods to get 3 different reads.

Do you actually think its unusual to use different things to understand your surroundings as they become relevant?

No, I don't. But I do think that it shows that Reck either doesn't know what he is talking about because he is forced to use different methodologies instead of keeping the methodologies the same, or you are Scum and that is the reason for the different methodologies.

In short, Reck is using different tactics, so the goal must be the thing that is the same. See here to know what I am talking about: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=69491
Basically, I think it's a bit more Scummy than Towny the way Reck goes about making these statements.

What an utter pile of bullshit. This is the kind of "inconsistency" that feels like it's not been spotted naturally, more like forced into a read.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

I find post 125 incongruous with the Dunnstral evaluation before and after. I also would have expected in post 232 that LQ's acknowledgement of Dunntral's naked vote to be taken as a cue to look back and see why LQ would have said that, instead of making something of it.

Similarly, but much more importantly, there is disparity present between posts 105 and 231 with regard to the read on Sauce. Although 231 doesn't endorse a town read of Sauce there, it is a statement that is a far cry from the feelings expressed in 105.

I don't find anything nearly as scummy in the TSQ/Gamma back and forth as the above, but I will say that I got a strong townread of TSQ out of it.

Reading this post made me realise I'd forgotten about ActionDan's existence in this game so I read through his ISO and, while sparse, his posting seems okay and he gets a townlean right now.

Sorry I've been fairly absent, I've got exams this week. Final one is on thursday, so I'll be active once they're all out of the way. Tomorrow I've got some time to catch-up, 'll make sure to provide some input then.

rip wgeurts 2018-2018

I am so confused. You said you had a problem with me and said you thought I was shifting the goal posts and then I wrote a response to that to try to explain where my head was at. I would have thought you to at the very least be interested in that response? Idk. I have a hard time figuring out what you're doing most of the time so fuckin' just ignore me I guess I'll be over in this corner babbling like an idiot.

Well, I mean, where would the conversation stop? It has to stop at some point, right? Otherwise you could have a conversation that would never end. I chose to end the conversation at that point and see what other people have to say about it.

what the fuck is this post

I'm taking this a lot slower now Eddie, starting from the beginning. I'll get back to LQ eventually.
It takes me a lot of effort to get good reads and I'm going to put that effort in instead of just hoping that everything will magically become clear to me because I am Llamarble.

This (positive) change in attitude despite little or no verbal pressure, never mind voting pressure, is good in my eyes.

VOTE: EddieFenix

Also can we take a moment to discuss the hot garbage that is EddieFenix's ISO
It's just a bunch of sitting back and saying things from the sidelines or am I missing something here

Yeh you're also missing the very empty questions but yeh he looks bad overall at this point in catchup

[Davsto]

bamboozled

[Davsto]

@Davsto: How's the catch up going?

A bit slow for now due to busy and tiring weekdays. However, it's saturday soon, and I will be caught up for certain by saturday evening (remember I'm in Britain so my time may not match up with yours tho)

Sorry about the delays but I hope my posts are providing enough substance that I'm not being dead town weight rn

[Davsto]

Did i say saturday evening? I mean sunday actually am meeting with gf on saturday sry

But I'll try my best to keep with the current state of the game too since that's quite late

rn I think I'll vote LQ because a lot of what he's done has rubbed me the wrong way

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

[Davsto]

There's a couple of things noted in my catchup posts

More recently, I also disliked his Tchill unvote (which was just because we weren't ready for a lynch) and then a bit later the "hmmm i don't like this lack of resistance to tchill being voted" though it didn't seem to bother him before. It feels a bit forced and unnatural.

[Davsto]

16-20. This one's a little empty, I know.

What I am seeing is that Maquise Promised content and has not delivered. I see no excuse for this as of yet.

Marquis

is scummy

and I'm certainly not going to let the fact that he's lurking work to his defense. Scum do it and they do it often. Because it works.

1) i got sick
2) it's literally been a day
3) again it's literally been a day. i know i didn't post when i said i would (oh no someone didn't keep their word on ms.net) but like. come on. it's not 2005. lurking isn't a scumtell (if anything the scum meta is spamposting but i'll cut off because i'm not sure if that applies here yet). town has just as much motivation to not want to deal with things. case in point i pretty much played overwatch all last night because i really didn't feel like coming into d1 scumreads/votes on me and trying to defend myself.

also this seems like the kind of playerlist to hate self analysis/meta but i am! really really not good at being pressured because i'm really bad at defending myself other than being sarcastic and i hate how it distracts me from trying to get unbiased reads and sort the game. again nobody here i'm familiar enough with but cheet aero and spiff can vouch @ respective team partners.

anywayy i have a lot to get to irl tonight because i was pretty much out of it the whole day. but afterward i'll read up and start to sort things. i guess.

pls don't wagon me (any more) for the next hour or so. ty!

Like this post, feels genuine

Can you trim down the fucking quote walls guys

no fuk u

His question to me I don't think is a legit way to sort me considering he's already given a SR on me, which makes me think he is pushing an agenda instead of actually sorting people. It's also unclear who he SRs and who he TRs because under Scum you have 6 players, which is far too many to be SRing, which makes me think he is intentionally trying to paint a lot of people as Scum so he can't get blamed for voting someone later in D1 whom he already game a SR on.

Someone didn't really read the post carefully. Skimming isn't a scumtell per se, but I feel like town would have given the post a closer once over if they really got confused about the number of scumreads on it.

viewtopic.php?p=9664703#p9664703
viewtopic.php?p=9664890#p9664890
viewtopic.php?p=9671718#p9671718
viewtopic.php?p=9698355#p9698355
viewtopic.php?p=9710790#p9710790

Anyone want to take a wager for what the pattern here is? I'll give you a hint: Look at who was Scum this game.

Okay, so tchill and tsq do pre-flip as scum. Gotcha. Do they not do it as town? Since players do attempt to emulate their townplay as scum, does it not seem probable to you they might do the same as town too?

most of what people are bringing to me as an inquiry are things that I don't see a whole lot of relevance to actually sort me. Examples include Postie asking me to ask my teammates what their reads on players are in this game and Lycan asking me why I had a change in perspective on Marquis reads list.

I don't get how you can not think that these things have relevance to your alignment.

[Davsto]

I guess none of his other posts I've come across in my catchup have really rubbed me the wrong way. It's one of those times where none of his posts individually read badly, but looking holistically at his ISO gives a small scumlean for the reasons you mentioned.

[Davsto]

RC wants to know why you don't think that sounds exactly like scum: careful not to risk making a big mistake while being underwhelming on the whole.

Because in the past as town I've definitely played like that when I'm not fully into the game yet - struggling to make substantial reads but still trying to help. Based on that, I'm not willing enough to put it any further than scumlean - would rather focus on my stronger scumreads.

[Davsto]

Yo postie your post is great and all but one town and one scum game does not a meta make. Could I ask for (less thorough of course) examples from more town and scum games just to be sure this isn't just lucky and coincidental examples?

Also re: Ranmaru's read on me, I think it's bad. It's practically ignoring the actual content of my posts. And I'm doing daily wallposts catching up the game while still engaging with comments directed at me in the present time, so I don't agree with any idea of me attempting to be under the radar.

[Davsto]

VOTE: TSQ

Can you explain to me how this happened? It makes so little sense to me that I actually laughed.
Normally getting in a fight makes even scum look a little townier, but LQ just went flat on his scum face.
Like, he tries to claim "No doubt you would've voted me if others did" is scummy because it doesn't show doubt. But it's about a PREDICTION of BEHAVIOR, not alignment. Way to rely on the kinds of words people see as legitimate while pointing them at something they clearly don't apply to.
His defense is a pile of information over analysis, most of it wholly irrelevant. Aw yay, LQ doesn't like that I often solve games holistically and care about interactions and teams D1. It works for me, and I've been successful. You may prefer something else. Fine. We have now wasted time.

The problem I am having with the SRs on me is that there isn't much probing from players who are Scum reading me. Some players are doing this, but most of what people are bringing to me as an inquiry are things that I don't see a whole lot of relevance to actually sort me. Examples include Postie asking me to ask my teammates what their reads on players are in this game and Lycan asking me why I had a change in perspective on Marquis reads list. Shea has probably been the person who has looked like they have tried to sort me the most, but I am not going to TR him just solely on that fact.

The reasons people find you scummy aren't the tells you anticipated? The horror! Oh and the guy making genuine effort to read you (and the rest of the game) is scum, because that follows.

Then there's some nice (exactly the kind of stuff I happily spam as scum) discussion of personal history and gamestate.

Feeling really good about LQ scum now.
VOTE: LQ
Tchill is still scum too. But like, not as LOLblatantly.

Have I mentioned Marble is probably town? Marble is probably town.

It's almost as though context matters to the meaning of words, or something.

You are impressing me with how stupid you are.

TSQ basically stated that he had no doubt that I was Scum. The ONLY other explanation that TSQ can have is that he was saying he misunderstood my motive as Town and thought I would have voted a high BW as Town there and I am not buying that.

Strawmanning here. Tsq said there was no doubt LQ would do a scummy thing, while LQ is misaiming that to say that tsq "basically stated that he had no doubt that [LQ] was scum", clearly not true as TSQ's read has a lot more behind it than literally just that.

Llamarble if I called the scumteam as Marquis+ActionDan+CES what would be your opinion?

meh-doubtful-idk
What do you see between them?

Why did you answer for Llamarble?

(If you are town, we are on the same team, so pls help)
Anyway the reason I woke myself up was I got paranoid about Postie and ISOed her in bed and I can't remember why she is town.
Mostly I just see a good player playing the game. Solid probability of town because game loaded with town but not the obvtown I was hoping.
TSQ is take it to the bank never lynch town though because he got frustrated with me and tried to pull me more actively into the game.(which worked). I will ISO him again sometime to make sure but he and Gamma are town 1 and town 2 and NSG has made fakeable posts but they have also been good; gets exhausting to continue to produce moderate grade town tells like that as scum so I think she can be town 3.

OK, this sounds like you are trying to put more effort into getting your TRs correct than your SRs. What's the Town motivation for that? Have you even bothered to ISO me, your strongest SR?

I have serious trouble believing someone who's been on the site close to three years genuinely doesn't believe there's a town motivation behind putting effort into getting townreads right.

*record scratch*

Hello everyone! Apparently I'm young and beautiful, but only one of them is actually true. It's up to you which.

But yeh it's 10PM here so no actual post from me but tomorrow is a sunday so I'll be catching up the best I can then. I'd ask questions but I have a feeling that the response to literally every one would be "you'd know if you read the game" so I'll do that first.

I recognise a few names so yeh, should be fun. Watch out, Postie.

Yep, that's me. You're probably wondering how I got here.
Anyway, this is the point where I've joined the game. Obviously I have read past this point, so this will be my last big catch-up post today, so I can interact and focus on what's happening in real time more as the deadline approaches. However, I am very aware that I lack a lot of interaction and depth of a fair while past this point due to skimming and wanting to get my catchup done. As such I will:
- Continue this post until I get to page 25 of catching up (I like easy to remember numbers)
- When this day ends, I will overnight read and construct another set of comments in depth until the point (idk where thinking back but I'll come across it while reading through) where I feel that my interaction with the game was pretty good, and post that the following morning.

Sound good? Okay, back to reading.

I don't think it's scummy that he backs down from voting me. What's scummy is that he then sits on his hands and can't follow up with anything new.

ur damn right

(If you are town, we are on the same team, so pls help)
Anyway the reason I woke myself up was I got paranoid about Postie and ISOed her in bed and I can't remember why she is town.
Mostly I just see a good player playing the game. Solid probability of town because game loaded with town but not the obvtown I was hoping.
TSQ is take it to the bank never lynch town though because he got frustrated with me and tried to pull me more actively into the game.(which worked). I will ISO him again sometime to make sure but he and Gamma are town 1 and town 2 and NSG has made fakeable posts but they have also been good; gets exhausting to continue to produce moderate grade town tells like that as scum so I think she can be town 3.

OK, this sounds like you are trying to put more effort into getting your TRs correct than your SRs. What's the Town motivation for that? Have you even bothered to ISO me, your strongest SR?

what's the point of scum "getting town reads right" at all? isn't the literal only motivation for getting a town read being town? this game is mountainous. scum doesn't need town reads.

You are assuming I am SRing Llama for that.

Other people already commented that this is bad because asking for the town motivation for it is sort of an implied scumreading of it, but I'd like to highlight it once again in my continuing case against LQ

-snip-

Lycan has had few posts but I'm generally happy with all of them. They're fairly in depth and interactive despite their infrequency. Townlean.

[Davsto]

That's fair enough.

[Davsto]

@Davsto I haven't done any ISO runs of people other than Eddie Sauce Chilly and LQ
Also not switching since I want to play with Ranmaru

Ooh I forgot to reply to this. My point was (remembering I hadn't yet reached the big big you-tsq discussion about it) it looked like the kind of vote that wasn't made naturally at the time from things that actually happened, but the kind of one that arises from reading someone's ISO to find a reason to vote them, and seeing something bad without actually seeing it in context, yknow? Having seen the big discussion with you and tsq I understand it a bit more and I'm not exactly interested in retreading that argument.

UNVOTE:

Nope, not ready to end the day just yet.

Hey here's the bad unvote I mentioned earlier.

I am concerned that no one is defending Chill. It gives me a bad feeling.

And here's him pivoting. This looks a lot like him getting off a townwagon to look better tomorrow (well, today now I guess). The lack of resistance to the wagon hasn't bothered him until now, even his unvote was just because he was "not ready to end the day just yet". And all the following references to Tchill in his ISO look awful. It reads a lot like he knows that the lynch would end up being on town and is giving enough resistance he can look good tomorrow but actually wants the lynch to go ahead. Weasel wording a lot of the time - he's not arguing that Srceen is town or anything, but he's making a big deal about not doing pre-flips or planning ahead as if Srceen will definitely flip scum. It just all reads really strangely and off. This is why I'm gonna start off the day voting LQ, most likely.

UNVOTE:

Nope, not ready to end the day just yet.

If tchill is a scum read, what more exactly do you want?

I ask this partially in game and partially out of game, because honestly I see stuff like this all the time where people are like "welp, we have 5 days left so we can't hammer." which I think is silly. I've already gotten about as much reading done as I can without flips imo, and I really would just prefer to get some and then go from there.

The only thing I really want before day end is for davsto and ranmaru to finish reading the thread and go from there.

If that's what you meant than carry on.

It has more to do with the fact that there is like zero resistance to this wagon on Chill. That is what I am looking at. Ending day this early is also time wasted.

Again, it seems odd he's touting this as the "main reason" when it wasn't even mentioned at first. It's like he realised that his initial reason didn't look good enough and wouldn't allow him to keep resisting voting until day end so had to come up with something else to save face.

I have a readlist but I'd rather not share it for now because if I get nightkilled I don't want there to be ambiguity about why it happened. I don't want to give Eddie an out.
Alternatively, I'd be happy to share my reads once I've placed all my nulls because then I can die having done my job. Not that I'm saying my reads are likely to be super duper amazingly accurate or anything, but dying before having made a guess for the scumteam I can be happy with just sucks.

oh good something frm the rc book on how to play mafia. Seriously this is ridiculous because, not does it (a) give you an excuse to give fewer reads (making you much harder to read) and (b) mean that your good reads are just flat out unable to be seen so actually a lot of information would be lost on your death, its reasoning is completely flawed. That is, if you did get nightkilled, we wouldn't assume Eddie incriminated - if anything, we'd assume wifom going on and not lynch Eddie.

game of hers I linked

For reference

I noticed nsg is still considers herself newbie-ish in that game, so here's another more recent scum game so you can see how she's improved. The stuff she's done this game is still well outside of her scum range.

I was sceptical at first but I'm now pretty happy with the meta read on nsg, although I'd really prefer she just, yknow, contributed a lot more. Might push and encourage her throughout the day.

Anyway, I'm now getting to the point where reading every post is giving me an awful sense of deja vu - I think I've reached the limit of usefulness of this exercise for me, as fun as it was.

[Davsto]

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

he bad

[Davsto]

VOTE: Eddie

Postie is either bussing or has a good read here in my estimation. Someone who is good at looking at wagons can analyze Eddie's wagon.

What makes you think that Postie could be bussing? What about her push suggests that to you?

Yo postie your post is great and all but one town and one scum game does not a meta make. Could I ask for (less thorough of course) examples from more town and scum games just to be sure this isn't just lucky and coincidental examples?

I mean it does make his meta when the games are literally night and day and he's still a newb in terms of the amount of games he's played.

Not at all. There are many more factors affecting a player's play than their alignment - the type of game, the size, their exact role in the game, not to mention the myriad of real life factors. In fact, him being a newb in terms of games played only exaggerates that - that is, a newb who is getting to grips is much more likely to play unpredictably. If you can't show me that he consistently plays like this as scum and consistently plays not like this as town, then meta alone is not enough for a vote from me.

Like what do you think the explanation for a sudden inability to make clear reads progressions and pushes when someone has been shown to be capable of it as town is, if not that they're scum (especially when it lines up with previous play as scum)? That they just suddenly became bad at the game? Because I mean it's obviously not that he's struggling to keep up or produce content in general like Tchill was since Eddie has been literally wallposting at points.

I could probably show you examples where I had games where I suddenly played really badly as town despite playing well earlier. If I can find Eddie towngames where he plays more like this (which I'm gonna have a lil search for tonight), it doesn't matter why he's suddenly playing like this, it shows that it isn't necessarily certain-scum meta therefore it's not fully valid. It may make him more likely to be scum, but not for certain.

But fine:
viewtopic.php?f=100&t=61168&user_select%5B%5D=20256
This was Eddie's Team Mafia 2015 game, where he was town. Note the lack of fluff, how he engages with others, and how he was more than capable of giving clear and detailed reasoning.
I guess I can find more if it's super important to get you to vote Eddie.

Ooh, one more game. Exciting.

I'm gonna do my own EddieFenix meta-analysis to get my own opinion rather than just skimming the linked games like I'm gonna guess every other player has.

[Davsto]

If it was the first time I talked about wagonomics ITT, you might have a point, but it wasn't. I talked about not liking the Marquis wagon due to wagonomics. Also, from what you quoted, I thought I had mentioned something earlier than that about not liking the Chill wagon. You should go back and check that.

Damn, you're right after a quick check - you mentioned it in 710. Hmm. Won't lie - there are a lot of other reasons I think you're scum and are voting you, that I have mentioned in detail. But I'll concede this point.

@Davsto

- What's your read on me, and on TSQ?

You? I'm irritatingly unsure of - I remember reading you well in the past, but you channeling RC is really fucking with me because everything RC does

always

rubs me as scummy, and particularly so in this game as they are things you'd never do solo as town in my experiences playing with you, so my read is all over the place - my gut is screaming scum, but my head knows it's just RC and his usual bullshit. And I want to ask you to cut it out and use RC's advice for reads and not play, but am fully aware you believe him to be a great player and so will not do so. My read on you will be decided soon, dependent on how I come out of this EddieFenix metadive, because it's something much more concrete to grasp on to.

TSQ I'm fairly townreading right now because his posts have always seemed a bit deeper than superficial and he's asked good questions etc etc. Not gonna consider lynching unless something drastic happens.

[Davsto]

things you'd never do solo as town in my experiences playing with you

Like what?

Like... everything. Refusing to give more than one scumread, saying things like "LQ is bad town unless he unvotes my scumread then he's scum", the stuff that's a bit harsher and stuff, while I remember you (in the few games we've played) being a more traditional player (although maybe that's changed since the year or so we last played). Regardless, it's honestly just RC's playstyle - it's always given me scumvibes, and I'm trying not to let that get in the way, but the problem being it makes it a lot harder to grasp on a read.

My read on you will be decided soon, dependent on how I come out of this EddieFenix metadive, because it's something much more concrete to grasp on to.

Do you think your thoughts on Eddie's alignment will affect your thoughts on whether I'm making a town or scum push?[/quote]It's not my thoughts on Eddie's alignment per se, it's my thought on the distribution of meta, and how likely from the games that your meta read, even if wrong, comes from a place of town or scum.
For example, if I find most games fit with the patterns you've given, with a few differing, I could to some extent disagree with your push being a concrete-scum meta read but still give benefit of the doubt that it could come from a town place. On the other hand, if I find that a large proportion of games, particularly recent ones, don't fit your pattern, I will look unfavourably upon you.

[Davsto]

(FIXED)

things you'd never do solo as town in my experiences playing with you

Like what?

Like... everything. Refusing to give more than one scumread, saying things like "LQ is bad town unless he unvotes my scumread then he's scum", the stuff that's a bit harsher and stuff, while I remember you (in the few games we've played) being a more traditional player (although maybe that's changed since the year or so we last played). Regardless, it's honestly just RC's playstyle - it's always given me scumvibes, and I'm trying not to let that get in the way, but the problem being it makes it a lot harder to grasp on a read.

My read on you will be decided soon, dependent on how I come out of this EddieFenix metadive, because it's something much more concrete to grasp on to.

Do you think your thoughts on Eddie's alignment will affect your thoughts on whether I'm making a town or scum push?

It's not my thoughts on Eddie's alignment per se, it's my thought on the distribution of meta, and how likely from the games that your meta read, even if wrong, comes from a place of town or scum.
For example, if I find most games fit with the patterns you've given, with a few differing, I could to some extent disagree with your push being a concrete-scum meta read but still give benefit of the doubt that it could come from a town place. On the other hand, if I find that a large proportion of games, particularly recent ones, don't fit your pattern, I will look unfavourably upon you.

[Davsto]

Refusing to give more than one scumread,

That wasn't RC's idea. I tend towards having a few very strong scum and town reads, so it's just an approach that fits naturally with my playstyle. Although I'm aware RC has done this also, so it's possible I adopted it from him.

Point is it feels a lot like an RC thing that strikes me as scummy coming from you, if that makes sense? I know I'm not being precise but you can see how your slot is being really hard for me to read this game.

"LQ is bad town unless he unvotes my scumread then he's scum"

Neither of us said this. He doesn't become scum if he stops voting Eddie; he just becomes useless and not worth keeping around, for the most part.

I guess you didn't say it precisely, but

(But also that if LQ stops voting Eddie at any point he'll stop defending LQ)

felt lowkey like that, in the sense that you're sort of preemptively pressuring LQ into agreeing with you.

On the other hand, if I find that a large proportion of games, particularly recent ones, don't fit your pattern, I will look unfavourably upon you.

The two I went into in detail were his most recent town and scum game.

Yes, I know now, I didn't then. My point was to give an example of how "disagreeing with your meta read on Eddie" would not necessarily mean "thinking you are scum" - I have to get the impression that, as well as disagreeing with your reads, your meta was artificial or misleading in some way. I'm in the process of making the post with my EddieMeta read etc now.

[Davsto]

I know I'm not being precise but you can see how your slot is being really hard for me to read this game.

Not really. :L

well the tl;dr is that RC's playstyle always gives me scumvibes gut-wise lmao

And (through a mixture of you being helped by him right now, and his playstyle influencing yours in general with you taking cues from him to put into your own permanent playstyle even outside of his direct help) your playstyle in this game is resembling his

So it's putting me on edge because my gut gets scumvibes from it

But my head knows that I'm not really able to actually consistently read these aspects so I'm ignoring it

So I'm struggling to read you

(Does that help a little?)

[Davsto]

So, Eddie Meta. First to note is that I'll be referencing this post a lot as it's a good sum up of Postie's claimed town- and scum-meta re:Eddie.

First thing to note is that, while the chosen games are from last year (which initially concerned me with regards to cherry picking) they are indeed the two most recent (substantial) games Eddie has played in. This is also a general comment that I'm fairly happy with their assessment of their two games. I don't think the difference is as blindingly obvious as painted, however. Also, I will note that his TBD play (scum) becomes a fair bit more like his Night and Day (town) play as the game continues, which muddies the whole thing a little for me.

Now, the other games:
Paint Mafia Mania (SCUM) - while more recent than the other two, this game is the reason why the qualifier "substantial" is in the paragraph above - an entire 9 posts, due to a personal situation ("unforeseen life stuff"), a fast moving game, and eventual replace out. So, while largely it could be NAI (as pretty much all could be equally explained with the lack of full engagement with the game due to being behind), I do notice even in this tiny sample that a fair few of Postie's meta-indicators are present.
Hunger Games II (SCUM) - this is a hydra game with Bulbazak (to find Eddie's posts, use Ctrl+f and search "-Fenix", as he signs all but his first post with this). Another of Postie's points is here - a very small number of reads. Pretty much the first half of Eddie's posts refer to a single player (Creeps). And yep, a lot of questions which aren't followed up on, and.. yeh you get the idea. I was honestly expecting to have a fair bit to argue against Postie with but... this is pretty much as they say. I'm almost disappointed.
Team Mafia 2015: Mod Error Mafia (TOWN) - four posts, nothing to see here.
Team Mafia 2015: 8:4 Vanilla Nightless (TOWN) - this one's a teeny bit more ambiguous, as there are a few early posts where questions aren't followed up on and a smaller number of players are engaged with. But who am I kidding - this is quickly resolved, questions are followed, he gets mulitple more reads quickly, his posting is indepth and lacks fluff.

Dammit Postie, when you're right, you're right.

VOTE: EddieFenix

[Davsto]

If it seems like I'm a little annoyed that's because I somewhat am because if that meta had been obviously wrong then I'd have the Postie slot down as scum easy peasy bam and that would be one of my biggest troubles in this game shut down

But even with that and even if Fenix flips red, Postie could still be scum because she's being guided by RC and we all know he's rather bus-hungry

Don't get me wrong, that good meta has definitely put Postie on a townread for now and I'll probably not be actively scumhunting the slot for a couple of days (especially if Fenix flips red) but still I've got to play the game with such uneasiness

[Davsto]

If it seems like I'm a little annoyed that's because I somewhat am because if that meta had been obviously wrong then I'd have the Postie slot down as scum easy peasy bam and that would be one of my biggest troubles in this game shut down

But even with that and even if Fenix flips red, Postie could still be scum because she's being guided by RC and we all know he's rather bus-hungry

Don't get me wrong, that good meta has definitely put Postie on a townread for now and I'll probably not be actively scumhunting the slot for a couple of days (especially if Fenix flips red) but still I've got to play the game with such uneasiness

What do you think of RC/Postie's case on me and how does it make you feel about the slot?

I can see where their case is coming from even if I don't necessarily agree - I too would be a little uneasy with a strongly townread player pushing hard on someone who flipped town, yet still being strongly townread. I disagree that you're scum for it (since the slot lynched was a very scummy-acting slot and I can find many games where I or other players pushed hard on a slot they believed to be scum but flipped town), but get the gist.

[Davsto]

This looks more like comparing his play to what Postie has said of his meta rather than to what you perceive as his meta

I'm not hugely great with meta, and this was as much to help guide me as to Postie's alignment as it was Fenix, so my aim was to check if Postie's points seemed valid for the games she listed (they did) and to use that as a jumping off point to look at other games and compare. It looks like that because it sorta is, but when someone's already done a pretty comprehensive list of meta tells what do you expect me to do? Ignore them and find silly obscure ones?

And also, why don't you throw in TBD and N&D and see which one is less incongruous with it's respective alignment's meta?

Because on a look through neither seemed particularly incongruous, and I see no point in putting a lot of time into a post which would literally just be "yeh so it's pretty much mostly as postie says tbh", if that makes sense.

[Davsto]

So, Eddie Meta. First to note is that I'll be referencing this post a lot as it's a good sum up of Postie's claimed town- and scum-meta re:Eddie.

First thing to note is that, while the chosen games are from last year (which initially concerned me with regards to cherry picking) they are indeed the two most recent (substantial) games Eddie has played in. This is also a general comment that I'm fairly happy with their assessment of their two games. I don't think the difference is as blindingly obvious as painted, however. Also, I will note that his TBD play (scum) becomes a fair bit more like his Night and Day (town) play as the game continues, which muddies the whole thing a little for me.

Now, the other games:
Paint Mafia Mania (SCUM) - while more recent than the other two, this game is the reason why the qualifier "substantial" is in the paragraph above - an entire 9 posts, due to a personal situation ("unforeseen life stuff"), a fast moving game, and eventual replace out. So, while largely it could be NAI (as pretty much all could be equally explained with the lack of full engagement with the game due to being behind), I do notice even in this tiny sample that a fair few of Postie's meta-indicators are present.
Hunger Games II (SCUM) - this is a hydra game with Bulbazak (to find Eddie's posts, use Ctrl+f and search "-Fenix", as he signs all but his first post with this). Another of Postie's points is here - a very small number of reads. Pretty much the first half of Eddie's posts refer to a single player (Creeps). And yep, a lot of questions which aren't followed up on, and.. yeh you get the idea. I was honestly expecting to have a fair bit to argue against Postie with but... this is pretty much as they say. I'm almost disappointed.
Team Mafia 2015: Mod Error Mafia (TOWN) - four posts, nothing to see here.
Team Mafia 2015: 8:4 Vanilla Nightless (TOWN) - this one's a teeny bit more ambiguous, as there are a few early posts where questions aren't followed up on and a smaller number of players are engaged with. But who am I kidding - this is quickly resolved, questions are followed, he gets mulitple more reads quickly, his posting is indepth and lacks fluff.

Dammit Postie, when you're right, you're right.

VOTE: EddieFenix

You are still assuming that 2 fucking games is enough for a meta read. News flash: it isn't.

Are you kidding?

[Davsto]

Like, I literally, in that very post, right there, continued the metaing to two other substantial games. Two plus two is four. Two games isn't enough. Four, with two town and two mafia, is.

[Davsto]

This looks more like comparing his play to what Postie has said of his meta rather than to what you perceive as his meta

I'm not hugely great with meta, and this was as much to help guide me as to Postie's alignment as it was Fenix, so my aim was to check if Postie's points seemed valid for the games she listed (they did) and to use that as a jumping off point to look at other games and compare. It looks like that because it sorta is, but when someone's already done a pretty comprehensive list of meta tells what do you expect me to do? Ignore them and find silly obscure ones?

And also, why don't you throw in TBD and N&D and see which one is less incongruous with it's respective alignment's meta?

Because on a look through neither seemed particularly incongruous, and I see no point in putting a lot of time into a post which would literally just be "yeh so it's pretty much mostly as postie says tbh", if that makes sense.

Why on earth would any Scum EVER give evidence that was as easily refutable as this? That is like ASKING to get strung up. Put another way: do you really think RC is that sloppy?

I've had scum!RC attempt to have me lynched on poor meta before so, uh, yeh.
And even if I didn't think so, what's the harm in being thorough and making it clear to the game that the meta read does go beyond just two games? I'm really struggling to understand your objections here. As in, it feels a lot like you're just objecting to anything you can without really considering it.

[Davsto]

What I am saying is that even in the case that Posties Meta on Eddie is accurate, this doesn't automatically make Postie Town, which seems to be what you are assuming.

I'd like you to link where RC used incorrect meta to try and lynch you.

And point to me where I said "well Postie's town". I've said they're right, and I've said I currently have a townread on the slot, but also clearly expressed concerns about the slot in the post and since. All I've said is that I'm not going to worry about it for a few days and focus on other players. I've never acted like this would give me the be all or end all of townreads on the slot, I'm merely saying that it's helped me get a little bit of a more concrete read on
As for the game, here (with me as my Mr Meeseeks alt) - viewtopic.php?p=7888555#p7888555 - am aware it's less... substantial than the meta here but the principle is there.

Like, I literally, in that very post, right there, continued the metaing to two other substantial games. Two plus two is four. Two games isn't enough. Four, with two town and two mafia, is.

You have 2 games really. One of the games has like 4 posts and the other is a Hydra game, which is not equatable.

First of all, I somewhat disagree on the hydra front. While I see your point, there are two factors I feel make it fairly valid
- EddieFenix clearly signs his posts. This means I can accurately look at, well, just his posts.
- This is a scum game that fits with his meta. While this is going to sound like confbias, let me explain - you're arguing that this isn't valid because it's a game where he's being helped. But surely, if he's scum being helped by a hydra partner, the way it would be invalid is that it would differ from his scum meta i.e. he would be more towny? Here he's scum, and he's playing to a scummy meta, similar to his other scum game and very different from his town game. How, when he is scum, would him having a hydra partner be able to both keep him playing to his scum meta while also invalidating it? What I'm asking is, can you explain in detail why this meta is not equatable beyond just "it's a hydra"?
And EVEN THEN, the total number of games that you believe the meta fits for is four. Let me break it down for you. Postie looked through two games to establish a basic meta. On top of that there are whichever two games of mine that you count as being valid. Together that makes four games.

[Davsto]

When I flip green, THEN what? Are you gonna let this slip away again and let these scummy bastards slip thru your fingers?

hmm i wonder if the wording of "i'll not be actively scumhunting the slot for a couple of days (especially if fenix flips red)" implies that I'm more likely to start actively scumhunting the slot if you flipped green?

The games you grabbed, I'll give you Hunger Games. THAT ONE was a good game to grab.

I should hope so, since it was by your recommendation

Paint Mafia was stupid to grab.

I acknowledged clearly in the post that Paint Mafia should be taken with a pinch of salt due to few posts and circumstances, I just pointed out that what little is there does seem to fit with the pattern (and I wanted to acknowledge its existence since I was attempting to be more thorough in terms of recent posts)

The 2 team mafia games though?? Weeeeeeaaaaaaaak saaaaaaaaaaauce.

Sure, I'll accept that the one with 4 single posts is bullshit but guess what - I acknowledged that too! The only thing weaksauce here is your attempt to discredit my post when it's nothing but transparent
And that's the "one" - what exactly makes the other team mafia game weaksauce? You have a lot of posts in that one, etc. Please point out what makes that one invalid other than you just yelling "weeeeaaaaak saaaaaaaaauce". This feels like lazy discrediting of meta.

If it's still around, Fire Emblem Awakening is a GREAT game where Bulb and I hydra'd.

That game is approaching 5 years old. And, no offence, but while I'm scumreading you I'm not exactly keen to go and meta you with games that you've cherrypicked yourself.

[Davsto]

Good post from you. Here's the thing with the second game, I replaced out of that second game when I didn't have my head on proper and we had to tag in someone who would try and drive the slot properly.

Again, this falls under the same criticism I have of LQ's post - explain to me why not having your head on proper would still enable you to play "better", i.e. to your town meta? Surely this would be an explanation for a bad-looking scumgame or towngame, not a good-looking one?

This time though, I got my head a bit off tilt, but slowly coming back to proper. Right now, you gotta think long term and look down the scope.

As I noted, this happened in one of your scum games too - it seems like your meta is most accurate on the first day.

Mastina's made it clear to me to make sure that I let people know that Marquis is the "loose end" that can be thrown under the fastest bus possible when necessary IF we allow for them to run this game. Postie and Ranmaru are the 2 long term scum. When the time comes that they do bus him, it shouldn't clear them as town. My slot is going to flip green and they're going to try and sweep it under the rug.

Trust me, if you flip town and Marquis flips scum then I'm gonna take a step back and reevaluate the whole game because that'd mean my reads are totally fucked lmao

[Davsto]

Also I'm waaayyy happier with nsg right now since they've posted a bit than I was during my catchup. Keep it up pls

[Davsto]

It's the morning so little time to post anything other than briefly

Ranmaru - just so you know, I think 1631 breaks several rules so like, maybe a good idea for you to get some final reads out before you get force replaced

LicketyQuickety - you've completely blanked my 1539 which was a response to one of your posts and therefore directed squarely at you and that's baaad. You've gone through many of the posts around it, why did you ignore that one?

[Davsto]

It's the morning so little time to post anything other than briefly

Ranmaru - just so you know, I think 1631 breaks several rules so like, maybe a good idea for you to get some final reads out before you get force replaced

LicketyQuickety - you've completely blanked my 1539 which was a response to one of your posts and therefore directed squarely at you and that's baaad. You've gone through many of the posts around it, why did you ignore that one?

I didn't see the point to continuing the conversation.

Why not, especially since there was a question literally directed at you (which I may note you still haven't answered)?

I will say I thought it was pretty apparent that you DID say you TR Postie for what they did, but I haven't gone back and looked.

OK I went back and looked and found this:

If it seems like I'm a little annoyed that's because I somewhat am because if that meta had been obviously wrong then I'd have the Postie slot down as scum easy peasy bam and that would be one of my biggest troubles in this game shut down

But even with that and even if Fenix flips red, Postie could still be scum because she's being guided by RC and we all know he's rather bus-hungry

Don't get me wrong, that good meta has definitely put Postie on a townread for now and I'll probably not be actively scumhunting the slot for a couple of days (especially if Fenix flips red) but still I've got to play the game with such uneasiness

If this isn't saying you TR Postie because of the meta read on Eddie, IDK what does.

Yes but it also

very

clearly says that I'll still be uneasy about the slot and that the townread is far from certain (i.e. the entire second line and also fair parts of the first and third) and the way you originally said "automatically makes postie town" made it sound like it was a confident town read or me saying "yep postie is for certain town", which even a basic read of that post shows it isn't. All I've been saying is it's giving me a bit more of a grounded read in a player I'm uncertain about.

[Davsto]

I had to reread the post to see what question you were asking me. I think just as playing as Scum has an effect on the psyche, so too does playing with someone in the same game. From what I have seen, you have 2 games there they played as Scum.. I don't think that is enough to base a meta read on plain and simple.

Fair enough, I understand your point. I still disagree, but I get your point.

[Davsto]

Davsto, can I have a readslist?

In vague order from scum to town (I say vague because especially when you get to the nuller parts it's hard to really differentiate)

Ranmaru - didn't particularly like the sauce slot D1 but posts have been substantial and detailed and just, well, not at all scumlike
TSQ - while I recognise some of the points made by some others, I don't agree that they make him particularly scummy and overall townread him fairly strong
Postie - I got fair townvibes from them before they got all RCed up, and while the RC is throwing up my reads one thing I recently noted is she seems to be implying to have a fair few reads differing to RC yet is pushing her alternative. I feel that scum!Postie would be a

lot

more dependent on RC than she is being right now.
----- here is the point where townreads are more nulltown -----
northsidegal - I didn't like her D1 posting but she's picked up today and seems pretty okay.
Lycanfire - too few posts for my liking but gets a little town edge in due to me really liking a couple of their posts
----- this is the null line. On it is CES and Marquis, as their posts have just left too little of any impact for me to even really remember them tbh -----
ActionDan/Dunnstral - both around the same because I read them similarly - very few posts and nothing really substantial or decent in any of them enough for me to justify null, but also nothing ringing alarm bells for me to call scum
Gamma Emerald - a bit more townposty recently but still not really made up for a lot of very scummy posting from my view
----- this is the line where nullscum (above) because a scumread -----
LicketyQuickety - a fair amount of bad, bad posts with a lot of flawed logic and stuff but then again I have heard he has a habit of playing "illogically". I feel this game has crossed the line from that into "outright scummy" with a lot of the things he's done but some of it could be caused by other things
EddieFenix - I feel I don't really have to explain this anymore but tl;dr scummy play independent of stuff, reinforced by meta.

[Davsto]

lmaaaooooooooo

[Davsto]

I'm finding it really hard to take that post seriously when you're claiming I've not put a player in the reads list when Marquis is right fucking there

[Davsto]

Yeh I feel that's been a real strong pattern with LQ. He's been really, really overeager to point out mistakes and contradictions without really considering their actual relevance to alignment (the most egregious being that whole "it's not halfway through the day it's only been three days are you trying to mislead us" bs) and also following it up by not actually reading posts because he's so eager to jump. It really feels like a non-town attitude.

Also, LQ, by safe I'm assuming you mean "towny acting players are town and scummy acting players are scum". And I'll agree with that (for the most part - I would argue some of my more null reads are a bit different but I'll concede that my strong town reads and strong scumreads are entirely uncontroversial).
But is it not possible that, for example, I have that readslist because I think the towny acting players are town and that the scummy acting players are scum?

[Davsto]

I'm finding it really hard to take that post seriously when you're claiming I've not put a player in the reads list when Marquis is right fucking there

Why do Marquis and CES share a line when no one else does? Why did you do their reads differently than everyone else?

Because they're null reads, hence why they're on the null line where it says null

LQ

: Why didn't you read his list thoroughly? Why do you find him suspect for having non-unique reads?

I started reading what he said about Shea and possibly a player or two after that. I read enough to be able to conclude that Davsto wasn't interested in making waves in this game and instead he was just following the herd. The whole thing about not having unique reads is that it shows that player is more interested in fitting in than giving what could look like a controversial opinion. It's a tell I used to see people using a lot on PerC (where I started playing). While having a bland or otherwise unsurprising readslist doesn't guarantee that that person is Scum, It's something that Scum do FAR FAR more often than Town. Not having unique reads shows no independent thought. Along with this (lacking independent thought) I can't remember what Davsto has said about what reads his team has had which is also a sign that Davsto could be Scum considering most people if they are Town are going to bounce things off their teammates. Especially if they are an extrovert like Davsto is - it's just something I expect someone who already has group think on the brain to bounce things off their teammates if they are Town. Now I am saying I can't remember what his teammates have said about the game instead of saying that Davsto's teammates haven't said anything about the game.

As far as what is fueling my read on Davsto, it's just seeing that he is just sorta... there. He isn't really pushing anything strongly at all. Even when he brought up the point that I didn't respond to his inquiry he ended up just saying "fair enough." "Fair enough" is not a point of contention which is something I would expect Davesto to have with his second strongest SR, me, if he was Town. Like, he has no spine whatsoever. He reminds me of a fish out of water who doesn't really know what to do because he's out of his element. The thing about this is that he really had no choice on what game he was going to play because he was a sub for a team. And that's why I think he is Scum - because he just seems like he is trying his damndest to fit in rather than actually push anything that could be considered "unpopular".

I know it's odd for team mafia but our team has been playing quite independently, at least since I joined. I just realised I haven't read through the PT lmao let me go through anything people have said about the game
- Espeonage told wgeurts to vote postie around page 4, explains a couple of hours later that they think that postie was trying to gather traction for any player they could, and that she wasn't doing so to help read them. Followed on to also say that CES and Llamarble looked alright at that point. Then says CES is definitely town
this is the only interaction with wguerts what with the whole "him-disappearing" thing
- I also recently asked my team in general for help on Postie because I was struggling - Aneninen chipped in to say that her early-game came across as being forced. He also agrees with Eddie-scum due to early game. He also notes a large turnaround in the play of Eddie from D2 that he has chalked down to likely being coaching from his team mafia team, though that is NAI.
Also, how can you accuse me of not really pushing anything strongly when I made that detailed Eddie meta? I'd say I'm definitely the second-strongest pusher there at least. And,, seriously? Me saying "fair enough" is a scumtell? Maybe I just, I don't know, conceded the point because I saw your point of view? Just because I strongly scumread you doesn't mean I will question every point you make, even the reasonable ones.
And as for the not pushing anything unpopular point - that could literally describe half of the game. Is everyone scum if it's such a clear scumtell it justifies voting me for that single post?

Davsto, can you talk to me more about your Postie, Gamma, and Action Dan read?

I don't know how much I can say about my Postie read which isn't just retreading points I've made - the whole RC input and aspects of RC's style present that give me scumvibes (but my logical side knowing that for RC that stuff is NAI) is making a solid read hard, so I'm having to search for little things. That whole meta read being spot on helped me gain a little ground, and the things I noted in my readslist were decent too.
Gamma Emerald - I can't remember specific examples (they've mostly been clear in GE-TSQ interactions) but a lot of things GE said I have a vague recollection of striking me very roughly and being just, idk, off. I may do an ISO in a couple of (RL) days.
ActionDan - one which is more gut than anything (hence its placement) I just haven't seen them posting much and I can't remember a single post of theirs that made me go "hm, that seems like a towny thing to say". I will likely ISO them during the (game) night.

eh, it's preflip, but i could see an actiondan / cogito ergo sum team. individually i don't have great reasons to scumread either, really, outside of dan perhaps preferring scum over town.

Why?

Davsto, Dunnstral, NSG. Come aboard the Lick it Quick wagon.

Yeh I'll second CES above - I'd rather focus on Eddie for now. LQ also doesn't seem like the type from whom I'd get much info from voting - he seems like he'd respond about the same to a wagon as he would a single vote. I also don't want my game to be centred too much around him as I feel that I've been engaging a lot with him compared to everyone else - I'd rather spread a wider berth and look at a few other people in detail, starting with the aforementioned GE ISO-ing on, idk, sunday probably, to avoid me tunneling or lacking info on other players.

[Davsto]

Davsto says my interactions with TSQ have been off? I wanna hear this

I don't mean off as in ingenuine if that's what you think I mean

I mean like I remember you coming out quite badly with your confrontations with tsq in terms of your points coming out looking rather poor ygm

But recently you've rubbed me much less wrongly so that is why I'm planning on ISOing you soon

[Davsto]

I'll do my ISO of gamma tomorrow but I'll try and get a decent post of some sort out in under an hour

[Davsto]

I'm finding it really hard to take that post seriously when you're claiming I've not put a player in the reads list when Marquis is right fucking there

Why do Marquis and CES share a line when no one else does? Why did you do their reads differently than everyone else?

Because they're null reads, hence why they're on the null line where it says null

Why create a separate line for Null reads? You could have categorized them both as Null and given them a separate section of their own. IDK why you did it the way you did. This may sound like I am picking at a minor point, but there is a reason for me asking. Basically, I think there is a subconscious reason to put those players on a separate Null line and I want to know what that reason is because the subconscious is involuntary in what it does, hence getting at the subconscious and interpreting what it is saying is the best way to read people because it's literally impossible to hide what is in the subconscious. Why do I think it is subconscious? Because Davsto gave an answer that doesn't really answer anything but basically says it is the way it is because it's the way it is, which doesn't answer the question of why at all.

Look at the structure of my post. It has a vague order with lines dictating the points between reads (i.e. between strong scumreads and weak/nullscum reads, same for town), and logically one of the lines is therefore between nulltown and nullscum reads. I decided that it made more sense to put null reads of neither nulltown nor nullscum directly onto this line.

Why do I find it unlikely that the defending Champs are not working together at all?

You finding it "hard to believe" doesn't make any difference upon how true it in - fact is, there's not been a huge amount. If you want supporting evidence, here is the team's PT from 2015, and you will see that at this point (about a month after the start date) there have only been about 8 pages of discussion, which isn't a huge amount and is about the same as our PT.

Also, I see you completely ignored the more important point I was trying to make, namely, you are just sorta floating through this game and not really taking any risks at all. I haven't been able to determine if this is because of personality or not yet. I will say that it is completely normal to say things as Town that are Bold and challenging the status quo, and I don't see Davsto doing that.

I suppose, but at this point when it's early in the game and obvious scum is obvious there's not a huge amount of motivation for me to. Like I said, on the offchance that Eddie flips town, I'm likely going to reevaluate pretty much everything.

And most players in the game have at least one read that is unique to them and doesn't follow the norm, I don't see that at all in your readslist. Basically, your strongest SRs are the two players who are most likely to get lynch. That is not all tho, who you have one tier up from that are just people that are essentially just lurkers who haven't really made an impact in this game. Next we have your null line which is another couple of lurkers, surprise surprise. Then you have most of the players who most players TR as Town mostly because they are active, shocker.

I mean, you're really strawmanning the reasons in my opinion. My strongest scumreads are the scummiest players - them being the most likely to be lynched is undeniably a symptom of that, but that's not my reason for thinking they're scum. And the towny players are town because they're making good posts for sure, not because they're active. This is an especially ridiculous claim since you're more active than both my heavy townreads, and GE (who I have as potential scum) is the next highest poster after Ran and TSQ (i.e. he's a higher poster than Postie). It feels like you're trying to simplify the reasons for my reads to make them look bad.

Alright, I just felt like it could have been relating to more than just the initial argument between us

There's other stuff too but I've forgotten the exact details through getting too focused on other players. My bad entirely.

The possibility entered my mind that RC was basically playing through Postie, which I thought was more Scum indicative than Town indicative. Along with this, I was the FIRST person to point this out and it's pretty much just been accepted as fact in this game, yet I get no credit for discovering this - it shows people have a bias against me.

Piss off with this LAMIST crap- that thought had literally gone through everyone's heads before you pointed it out. Why should we give you "credit" for pointing out the obvious, especially when it's something equally simple for both town and scum to point out?

By my reckoning he's got about 55% chance of being scum.

My I ask precisely where you got this from?

Something I need to point out in LQ vs Postie is that my Postie read (the "fuck rc tier") basically means: the more we've normalized RC's existence in this game, the more open Postie has been in letting him influence the game by proxy. Prior to this there was some doubt over whether he was playing puppeteer or not. My main concern is my ability to read Postie is not as good as my ability to read RC.

Okay, this last sentence confuses me a little bit - if your ability to read Postie isn't as good as your ability to read RC, why is RC playing a bigger part a cause for "concern"? It feels a little at odds because the comment seems to imply you'd read the slot better.

So I'm think the team is among LQ/Eddie/Dunn/

Lycan

right now from the stuff covered here.

Why lycan, when you only mention him once in that whole catchup when your only comment is on a single post and that the final line is something you'd "townread... [but] that it's not one scum is unable to have", which to me reads as you saying it's little other than null?

[Davsto]

Yeh I picked that up, it just came across a little odd especially with you noting "from the stuff covered here" which implied that post

[Davsto]

I hate to delay the GE ISO again but a crisis with one of my friends occurred and I'm a little drained and it's semi-late and I don't really want to rush it

To be honest his ISO is massive, about 200 posts, so I'll probably do it over the game night because I don't want to be rushing it because of arbitrary deadlines I set. I'll see if I can get it done beforehand (I'd like to) but over the game night is my final aim to have it done (especially since I'm busy tomorrow night and wednesday).

[Davsto]

By my reckoning he's got about 55% chance of being scum.

My I ask precisely where you got this from?

I have a specific process to come up with numbers like these - I make them up. Then, after making up a number for everyone, I add up all the numbers and see if they add up to #ofscum - they probably don't, so I start changing the numbers until they do, making sure to think long and hard about how embarrassed I would be if one of my town reads turned up scum whilst doing so in order to keep my confidence in check. The idea is that the triple constraints of math, embarrassment and not wanting to underestimate my confident scum reads will lead to some semblance of truth. It's a bit involved but I prefer it to making reads list in terms of taking stock because I could actually experience how the existence of null reads like Dunn and ActionDan make me somewhat less confident in Marquis and Eddie.

Spoiler: Answer to the inevitable question

Marquis: 60%
Eddie: 55%
GE: 30%
Postie: 25%
Dunn: 25%
ActionDan: 25%
northsidegal: 20%
LQ: 20%
Davsto: 15%
Lycan: 10%
TSQ: 10%
Ranmaru: 5%

Huh, that's a cool way of doing things. It also pretty much answers my planned followup question of "how is 55% scum that great of a chance", as seeing it relatively and in context helps it make more sense.

[Davsto]

Ain't really got time nor awakeness to properly catch up today sorry (and no posts tomorrow because valentine's) so I won't be posting for a day or two sorry guys

but ur doin great

[Davsto]

Lq where are your conclusions about these Shea posts from considering that you had him as your second strongest town read towards the end of yesterday (i.e. after all of those tsq posts were made)

I'm on a phone so I can't really post tonight, and due to inconvenient timing of the night phase I haven't had time to rejig my reads and I haven't really done the gamma ISO but tomorrow is a Saturday and I'm free so I'm getting it done then, I will try my very hardest

@Ranmaru idk I still dislike LQ very strongly but my reads are clearly out of whack so I wanna have a bit of a reconsidering before I start making clear reads you know? I'll answer this question at some point tomorrow

[Davsto]

it feels like lq has caught onto the people who say they shouldn't lynch him because he's lynchbait and too scummy to be town and so has doubled down on it

[Davsto]

it feels like lq has caught onto the people who say they shouldn't lynch him because he's lynchbait and too scummy to be town and so has doubled down on it

What do you think about my post about his case? Do you really think scum fakes a case like that? I have a really hard time seeing it and further I have a really hard time seeing scum doing it on purpose to level me into thinking scum wouldn't do that, which it seems is what you're arguing.

Honestly this is more just me being exasperated at LQ being an utter twerp than any sort of read he's just, so, scummy. I'm too tired to properly detail rn I'll be back tomorrow with some deep thoughts or smth

[Davsto]

I'm not sure if I want to fully ISO Gamma anymore because it's like 250 posts and I've read them all before so I just start skimming so I leave it until later

So I'm basically putting off playing the game at all because I know when I come back I "should" do the Emerald ISO but I can't get myself to do it so I go "oh well probably shouldn't bother posting then"

[Davsto]

sorry i spent the last couple of days with gf so didn't have time and it's late tonight, I'll have a post up within,,, 18 hours or so max (probably less)

[Davsto]

Hey I'm sorry I had some homework to do today which took ages but I'm here and I'll do a detailed catchup (I have been skimming) and, if I have time, I'll do the Marquis ISO that someone (Ran?) asked of me

Just before I start catching up though, I'm just gonna ask LQ if he can answer this questions since I don't think he did at the time

Lq where are your conclusions about these Shea posts from considering that you had him as your second strongest town read towards the end of yesterday (i.e. after all of those tsq posts were made)

[Davsto]

Up to page 92. Will finish catching up in a bit (an hour or so dw) but I need a little break.

BTW, I realize my case on shea is shit.

You sure? Because 2081 and 2088 look pretty vindictive to me. This seems like a lazy backpedal.

How can you possibly say there was no counterwagon? Either of the first two days? It's something you keep saying but its not true.

What is your read on Gamma?

That's... not even responding to his question.

Actually, at this point I'm going to set myself a rule of not noting any LicketyQuickety posts unless I'm noting them because they're towny. I've made my read on him very clear, my skimming has shown no improvement, etc. I want this catchup to let me focus on others.

it feels like lq has caught onto the people who say they shouldn't lynch him because he's lynchbait and too scummy to be town and so has doubled down on it

What do you think about my post about his case? Do you really think scum fakes a case like that? I have a really hard time seeing it and further I have a really hard time seeing scum doing it on purpose to level me into thinking scum wouldn't do that, which it seems is what you're arguing.

But I can't see town doing it for any reason at all, since it seems very non-sequitur, coming out of nowhere, then immediately turned around upon once it fails to gain traction. Sure, it'd be odd for scum to do that, but it makes a lot more sense to me than town doing anything LQ has done this whole game. I feel like you're thinking into this a little bit too deeply.

All I am seeing here from LQ is "I want to connect Ran and Gamma through them defending each other". I've seen enough.
VOTE: LicketyQuickety

This, uh, feels like an odd angle to come at it at? I could consider this an associative if GE flipped scum because that's the only reason I could see scum!GE worrying about it, but honestly this overall comes across as a towny post, as there are a lot of other angles to come at it from, and I can't help but feel scum would go for one of the more obvious ones.

I'm convinced enough that everyone else on the site breaks and scumclaims after being pushed by me

lmao what is this

Reminder that Gamma and Postie were shit reads he came up with EoD1 to justify not working with the town. Then when push comes to shove and lynchbait is being served he's okay with lending a hand, for some damn reason.

I get your point here, but EoD1 was it not also "lynchbait being served"? Why did he not vote then?

I think we should delierate this more before rushing into a marquis lynch

This is an awfully strange comment to make considering that Marquis has precisely two votes at this point and no-one is hard pushing him.

Why did postie die? She wasn't pushing marquis, right? It makes me feel like this is a part of scum plans

And this is an even stranger comment to make when you think that, for a start, there's more than one scum. This feels really awkward and a really unnatural thought process to follow.

He likes davsto questioning postie's meta.

This is a bit of an incomplete opinion - what was his opinion on me ending up agreeing with it?

I'm not sure if I want to fully ISO Gamma anymore because it's like 250 posts and I've read them all before so I just start skimming so I leave it until later

So I'm basically putting off playing the game at all because I know when I come back I "should" do the Emerald ISO but I can't get myself to do it so I go "oh well probably shouldn't bother posting then"

That's fine. Here's something easy and productive you can do instead - ISO Marquis keeping in mind that all he's done since his disastrous start is occasionally pop in, post something that's meant to sound vaguely pro-town and peaced out again. (I stole this wording from a previous post because I am also lazy.

Oh, it was CES, not Ran. I don't like this post as it feels like it's trying to plant an idea of what I should get in the ISO rather than actually wanting me to come to my own conclusion.

[Davsto]

Honestly not really. More recently while I wasn't a fan of your push on me and Ran it wasn't like your past play where I felt you were misrepping people. You were pushing things that were clearly there and you reconsidered when you saw evidence to the contrary.

re this whole ran push - I'm incredibly conflicted on it, because despite it being hilariously bullshit and completely wrong, and him going around it a very blunt way, it makes... sense? It's really strange.

phoneposting

more like postphoning

Town. I like how he's unwavering in saying Davsto is free to scumread him.

Uh, what? Have you actually mixed up me and Lickety here? That's really bad.

Davsto

: Why don't you look at my reasoning for Gamma town in my #2217 and then tell me what you think.

Yeh I can see where you're coming from and I think I'm gonna rest at GE being fairly nulltown at the moment.

Also tell me what you think of LQ v Ranmaru as well.

Already done so. LQ looked like a proper imbecile at first but the eventual development felt genuine despite being really bizarre. I definitely feel like scum!LQ as he is in my head would have kept pushing that despite the counter from Ran.

I hoped he would get to the ISO or anything, but still nothing.

Just saying that I've made clear that I've decided against the GE ISO for various reasons regarding it probably not actually doing much, recent posting making me lean a bit more town on him, and generally demotivating me to actually take part in the game.

If you like the vote why aren't you following me on it?

Because one wagong is good, but two wagons is better. I'd like some semblance of a competing wagon this day so that people can look at the votes and actually see something with VCA.

Yknow as the confbias of LQ is starting to get out of my head I'm spotting more and more good posts of his. I mean, I don't think I'm townreading him yet but I'd definitely not put him as my main scum candidate anymore.

I think his main content, which involves talking to Postie and LQ, clearly come from a town-oriented mindset.

This is a very vague point. Why do they clearly come from a town mindset?

Hey I'm sorry I had some homework to do today which took ages but I'm here and I'll do a detailed catchup (I have been skimming) and, if I have time, I'll do the Marquis ISO that someone (Ran?) asked of me

Just before I start catching up though, I'm just gonna ask LQ if he can answer this questions since I don't think he did at the time

Lq where are your conclusions about these Shea posts from considering that you had him as your second strongest town read towards the end of yesterday (i.e. after all of those tsq posts were made)

The pattern with shea has been this:

I think shea is Scum.
I push him.
He dismisses me completely.
People keep TRing him which makes me give up the read.

Like, how am I going to make a case when he just keeps dismissing what my accusations are against him? I can't make a full case out of that can I?

I get you but that's not really answering the question - what exactly made your read change on Shea over the nighttime, despite you having townread him in the game at the point where all the posts you point as "scummy" have been made.

Anyway I'm back, my team convinced me to stay.

VOTE: dunnestral

Not going to mention or listen to a single other thing LQ says the rest of this game.

That's an incredibly useless attitude, and kinda proving his point of you "dismissing" him.

I think Davsto is just bad Town instead of bad Scum, honestly.

Why?

stop fucking addressing me.

I get that you're frustrated with him but he is making good points occasionally and at least ones that make sense from his point of view, and recently you've often just been getting annoyed at him and yelling at him rather than just stopping to point out directly what error he's made (i.e. regarding the VCA thing you just sorta yelled that you never said it rather than showing how the post doesn't say what he said it did). This is a game of mafia, and you can't just make players stop addressing you because they have to play and if he thinks you're scum he's not going to stop and I don't think that's unreasonable of him either.

[Davsto]

My initial reaction is that Shea has started to turn my head a bit more unpleasantly so maybe he could be scum but one player I've not particularly liked is CES so I think I'll vote there for now, subject to change when I ISO Marquis as requested.

VOTE: CES

As for how my reads have changed that I can think of:
LQ, GE, NSG become a bit more towny
CES becomes a fair amount more scummy
TSQ, Lycan, Dunn a bit more scummy

[Davsto]

PBPA?

I'm okay with it as a temporary thing but if you do it the whole game it's a little ridiculous
And I'm also pointing out it's a little useless to tell him to stop addressing you because he's going to and despite your upset it's not unreasonable for him to continue to do so because it's part of the game n stuff

[Davsto]

Davsto can you go into your reasoning for why your reads have changed.

What do you mean by "why?"

If you mean "why did I see fit to start changing my reads", as I explained before the Eddie flip showed that my reads were somewhat out of whack and I need to step back.
If you mean "why did your specific reads change like they did" then I'm pretty sure you can just look at my two catchup posts and most posts that I found really notable and worth pointing out are in there, and I feel that shows it more clearly than I can explain right now at 11PM.

[Davsto]

I mean the reasoning for each read. That's all.

I'm pretty sure you can just look at my two catchup posts and most posts that I found really notable and worth pointing out are in there, and I feel that shows it more clearly than I can explain right now at 11PM.

[Davsto]

If you've read my posts and still don't get it and really want me to actually explain them I'll do it tomorrow because I'm pretty exhausted right now but hopefully even in that case the posts will still help you along the way

[Davsto]

This game feels dead, let's shake it up a bit
I'm instating a little minigame: Let's call it Cop, Masonize, Vig. Here's how it works. You give one unique person for each of the slots Cop, Neighborize, and Vig. Cop is for someone you're unsure about (null to scumreads). Masonize is for those you trust (townreads you think are competent). Vig is for people you just want out of the game. Explain if you like.
I'll start.
Cop Davsto (has consistently been behind so I'm concerned he could be somewhat active lurking)
Masonize Ranmaru (town leader duh)
Vig Marquis (Their flip really should happen)

Cop tsq because it'd be nice to be certain about him
Masonise Ranmaru obvs
Vig,, Marquis too probably because I don't think a lynch would get much info but he probably needs to die. Or maybe Dunnstral for the same reasons.

[Davsto]

Oh yeh I forgot this for Ranmaru

LQ, GE, NSG become a bit more towny

LQ - a couple of recent interactions with him (particularly that with Ran) showed him making a bit more internal sense and having a natural progression forming which makes somewhat sense, even if I think his actual logic can be silly at times.
GE - after looking closer at his recent posts due to having a mild scumread on him but not wanting to ISO, I noticed a lot more townie patterns than I initially thought, particularly that thought in my 2476 about his 2166.
NSG - This probably wasn't accurate of me to include here, I'd still include her about the same as where I had her in the readslists, I'm just a little more confident of that position now. This was more just about my movement from my very initial mild scumread on her from D1 sort of time.

CES becomes a fair amount more scummy

It's hard to pin down exactly why but since I started paying a bit more attention to him and reading closer he's not really just blending in with everything and I'm noticing something just, idk, off in his posts. His Marquis obsession is a bit silly and he seems to actively discredit any theory that doesn't include Marquis-scum. He could just be confbiasing but it seems a bit beyond even that.

TSQ, Lycan, Dunn a bit more scummy

TSQ - less that he's become "scummy", more that he's gone from my strongest townread to a bit less certain because of recent attitudes that unnerve me a little.
Lycan - I feel his posts are big but a lot of the stuff in them doesn't come across as saying anything really to me.
Dunn - his extremelurking is starting to be a real pain (as is Marquis') but unlike Marquis in my memory (may be wrong when I ISO Marquis which I'm still yet to do) Dunn has made a couple of posts that really strike me oddly, especially that recent one about "rushing into a Marquis lynch" that is so blatantly wrong despite being right after a votecount

[Davsto]

His Marquis obsession is a bit silly

It just seems silly because you're probably barely paying attention to Marquis. Do you even know he's got some weird vote on Ranmaru right now?

I do. Now explain why it's a scummy vote other than just the vague comment that it's "weird". Town can be weird too.

he seems to actively discredit any theory that doesn't include Marquis-scum.

Can you give examples of that?

I think it's probably still more likely that it points to a relatively confident scum team (e.g. GE-AD-TSQ,

but let's not actually entertain the possibility of Marquis being town if we can avoid it

)

probably the clearest example, but there's a lot of times where your theories revolve strongly around Marquis!scum so it comes across that there's probably other theories in your mind which you've discounted because they don't fit with that.

Davsto: I also want you on this wagon. I am thinking CES is likely town. You town read me, so please join me.

Making my own opinions etc, I townread you but that doesn't necessarily mean all your reads are right even if I like your style

I can actually give you guys an idea now, I think LQ, Gamma, are town
Ranmaru next tier
Cogito ergo Sum and TSQ, davsto, lycanfire are all null
northsidegal, actiondan lean scum
Marquis is scum

It's day three, why do you have four null reads and why aren't you doing anything to fix that?

[Davsto]

Because Ranmaru is obvtown for one. I think it's a pattern you see often with inactive but relatively competent scum - they try to fill their few posts with attempts to look town, so Marquisscum would absolutely do the classic vote against the grain here (Marquistown could also do it, sure, but it's not exactly likely.)

I suppose.

Your explanation here seems to say that you're just accusing me of tunnelling, so I still have no clue why you actually think I'm scummy. The example you quote was just me making a self-deprecating joke (if I'm wrong on Marquis too, my reads have been shit so that's not exactly a pleasant scenario to consider) but even if you read it straight I really have no clue as to how me suggesting a theory and then shooting it down would be scummy.

It may be a "joke", but it still looks like you writing off a sane conclusion of what could have influenced the nightkill "because Marquis" and going with the weird one instead. Feels like scum!tunneling, it doesn't feel quite... right. You're not considering other possibilities at all, whereas town do generally have some changes in their read. Also you're acting like it's the entirety of what I think wrong with your play and like this being slightly off disproves my entire scumread on you - it's not, your attitude is just scummy overall.

Actually
Hi dav
Tell me again why ur voting CES
And simultaneously would choose to vig me?

My opinion on where vigs should be used isn't "someone you think is scummy and will also probably be lynched", because that's what lynches are for. I would generally vig a null read who I think a lynch would be wasted on but also needs to die at some point, most commonly someone who's being very lurky. Hence, you or Dunn. I leant towards you because Dunn is a lot more overtly scummy scummy so I'd have preferred a lynch on him (as wagon patterns and how players react to the buildup to a scum lynch is considerably more useful than that leading up to a town lynch).

[Davsto]

Your explanation here seems to say that you're just accusing me of tunnelling, so I still have no clue why you actually think I'm scummy. The example you quote was just me making a self-deprecating joke (if I'm wrong on Marquis too, my reads have been shit so that's not exactly a pleasant scenario to consider) but even if you read it straight I really have no clue as to how me suggesting a theory and then shooting it down would be scummy.

It may be a "joke", but it still looks like you writing off a sane conclusion of what could have influenced the nightkill "because Marquis" and going with the weird one instead. Feels like scum!tunneling, it doesn't feel quite... right. You're not considering other possibilities at all, whereas town do generally have some changes in their read.

I literally state in #2334 that I think the "sane conclusion" is more likely. You're reading stuff into it that's just not there - I just gave an example of a scum team for which my thinking was applicable and then made a self-deprecating comment about how the chosen example didn't include Marquis (with a bonus fragrance of pushing Marquis); if I was purely Marquistunneling, I'd just have given an example scum team that included Marquis.

Okay that makes a bit more sense but you can't deny you worded that badly and confusingly.

Also you're acting like it's the entirety of what I think wrong with your play and like this being slightly off disproves my entire scumread on you - it's not, your attitude is just scummy overall.

It's Day 3. Whether the reasons for your vote are "he's too suspicious of Marquis!" or "he's too suspicious of Marquis!+Dude's just scummy" with no supporting evidence seems like much of a muchness; it's just weaksauce.

a) My read is more than you just being "too suspicious of Marquis", it's the way you're behaving that doesn't seem like a townie progression of reads (along with my gut reading you scumminly). I can keep giving things that come off as unnatural about your read, like how Marquis made a bunch of posts about a day ago and you haven't referenced or looked at a single thing beyond a single line in any of them - stuff like that is

not

how town act towards a scumread that is that strong.
b) You say that like you've given plenty of strong evidence for your Marquis vote. I've just skimmed through your ISO - all I can see is you saying he's lurking, has an "awkward tone", and a single-game meta. Get off your high horse here. My reasons for voting you are not exactly a huge amount weaker than those of your Marquis reasons. You've barely given anything on him this entire game day.

It's becoming increasingly obvious that your scumread on me is just too convenient - I'm someone who's voting you who's maybe not the towniest or best at explaining reads, so you've taken that opportunity and jumped upon it, especially odd as pretty much every previous comment about me has seemed to have me on the town side of things - I'm very suspicious of that so suddenly changing over something as minor as this, and that it's related to a vote on you feels like it's not coincidence. You are becoming more and more scummy the more attention I pay to you.

[Davsto]

It's Day 3. Whether the reasons for your vote are "he's too suspicious of Marquis!" or "he's too suspicious of Marquis!+Dude's just scummy" with no supporting evidence seems like much of a muchness; it's just weaksauce.

a) My read is more than you just being "too suspicious of Marquis", it's the way you're behaving that doesn't seem like a townie progression of reads (along with my gut reading you scumminly). I can keep giving things that come off as unnatural about your read, like how Marquis made a bunch of posts about a day ago and you haven't referenced or looked at a single thing beyond a single line in any of them - stuff like that is

not

how town act towards a scumread that is that strong.
b) You say that like you've given plenty of strong evidence for your Marquis vote. I've just skimmed through your ISO - all I can see is you saying he's lurking, has an "awkward tone", and a single-game meta. Get off your high horse here. My reasons for voting you are not exactly a huge amount weaker than those of your Marquis reasons. You've barely given anything on him this entire game day.

I replied to one of those posts and I've also just literally spent all my free time this weekend responding to things on my phone.

Again - may I highlight that you've replied to a single line in one post out of about 10. You haven't asked him about his Ranmaru read, you haven't engaged him at all. This does not feel like the attitude that town has to their biggest scumread.

I've also given reasons for why his lurking was scum-motivated; the awkward tone specifically related to his early posting (do you disagree that his early game was awkward?)

I don't disagree - I just disagree that being awkward is necessarily scummy, and strongly disagree that it's a justifier for a strong scumread.

the single game meta was in reference to the representative stuff he was pushing at the start. If that had been all I had said, there's already a significant difference there - I'm connecting my accusations to what's actually happened in the thread rather than push unfalsifiable generalities - that's exactly what my problem is with you. But Today I've also been discussing how I feel his pop-ins seem scum-motivated, talked about this type of competent scum who knows they're not very active and as a result really focuses on trying to look town to the exclusion of anything else, I think that pattern really fits what we've seen with Marquis.

This is a whole lot of waffle that I keep reading and not really getting what you're actually saying. Could you reword?

It's becoming increasingly obvious that your scumread on me is just too convenient - I'm someone who's voting you who's maybe not the towniest or best at explaining reads, so you've taken that opportunity and jumped upon it, especially odd as pretty much every previous comment about me has seemed to have me on the town side of things - I'm very suspicious of that so suddenly changing over something as minor as this, and that it's related to a vote on you feels like it's not coincidence. You are becoming more and more scummy the more attention I pay to you.

My town read on you had already mostly evaporated by the time you voted for me. You did strike me as quite earnest in your approach to the game on Day 2, but in hindsight you were in catch-up mode for a long time, which I think is a bit easier for scum, and your big case against Eddie was meta-based (you can definitely earnestly believe as scum that Eddie wasn't playing to his pro-town meta). I don't know why you'd call your only D3 vote "minor". And of course it's not coincidence it's related to a vote on me - I'm the counterwagon to Marquis and I'm obviously highly aware of it (especially since I had to wait two days to even find out why you were voting me and then accused me of the pretty serious sounding offense of "actively discrediting any theories not involving Marquisscum").

I'd noticed a fair few scummy posts you'd made and that was the justification for my vote - I didn't realise I hadn't put any more than that one in my catch-up (i.e. I'd noticed several other posts and so assumed I'd quoted and talked about several). That was intended to be the justification for it, and the direct wording was merely to satisfy Ranmaru asking me to explain my read changes directly.

I realise that, yes, that's my error, but my vote and then later-explanation absolutely did not come from a place of not wanting to justify it for two days.

[Davsto]

I could say something here about how I prefer to focus on specific things rather than ask scattershot questions but this feels like a fairly arbitrary thing for you to say I should've done. When the votes are 4-4 between me and Marquis and I strongly believe Marquis is scum, why would it be a priority to engage with Marquis?

It helps you provide more evidence for people to vote your scumread (rather than just repeating "hey lynch marquis please" over and over), and helps you get more idea of associatives if he did die.

It also feels weird for you to be saying this because you didn't make any attempt to engage with me when I became your strongest scum read.

What the fuck have I been doing with you over my last few posts if it isn't "engaging with you". It's, like, literally what I'm doing. Right now. I didn't do it instantly, sure, but that's a different situation to my main scumread being a lurker who suddenly makes a bunch of posts.

[Davsto]

Also I don't have time to make a full detailed post tonight (I may do tomorrow) but I implore people to read over CES' defence which they likely skimmed, and look at everything they've linked etc. I've read the first few quote-replies in the first post and it seems to me like a fair amount of his counterpoints aren't really strong and/or are based on technicalities that sort of miss the point (e.g. his saying that nsg was inaccurate as he did explain his vote - while technically true, this is missing out the context that said explanation was 9 irl days later, only brought up when he was specifically asked about by a catching-up Ranmaru, and long past when it was really relevant, so the counterpoint is really missing the point of why she considers it scummy).

Additionally, I think it's very telling that CES seems to have put a lot more effort into defending himself than he has into his only real scumread throughout the whole game.

[Davsto]

can we not have last minute shitty compromise lynches mkay (that's especially @Ran who was even scumreading CES earlier but has the nerve to ask me to compromise on LQ or Shea like,, the fuck? Why would I ever compromise on a lynch when the person I scumread most is at L-1??? Fuckin nuts)

This real difficulty in getting a hammer on CES despite less than 24 hours left is as frustrating as it is fishy

[Davsto]

I wish he would post more.

I'm sorry, I was posting more rapidly earlier due to half term (i.e. a week off) but having college and college work limits my posting. This is an explanation, not an excuse meant to justify my lack of posting (I'm totally aware I can and should be posting more) but yeh that's why. I will be trying harder.

[Davsto]

Ran asked for what I'd read people if CES flips scum or town? Idk why I can't just leave this until tomorrow (because I don't want to seem like I'm extrapolating further CES-scumread from other players' behaviour - I'm not, this is merely how you can expect me to feel tomorrow upon CES scum or town flip) but I suppose I should

CES flips scum (more detail here because obviously I've given it more thought) - Ran scum, it feels like Ran gave the CES an obligatory amount of effort and a vote then hopped off once it gained momentum and is now campaigning and virtually begging hard for unvotes to kill the momentum. Again, I'm not going to extrapolate and I'm not saying today that CES is scum because of this behaviour by Ran, because I know if I don't clarify this someone will accuse me of it. I'm not sure who the third scum would be under this situation. NSG and Marquis town likely for clear reasons, and though I wouldn't totally rule out bussing on Marquis that'd be a theory I wouldn't consider chasing up unless Marquis came across badly.

CES flips town - Ran probably town, the above description does not feel like scum-defending-town for towncred. I'd probably begrudgingly listen to him and look deeper into Marquis being scum, but I'd hardly put it as solid unless I found evidence for myself. I have other people I'd consider for scum but it's not really an associative in relation to CES as much as they are just because one person I've scumread turned out town so there's more scum among my townreads, if that makes sense.

[Davsto]

I was about to say Dun is voting you

[Davsto]

Also I'm gonna hope and see if I can dissect the big CES defencepost tomorrow morning UK time (that's before official deadline dw) because it's too late tonight

[Davsto]

VOTE: Ranmaru

Can't make detailed post rn but I feel I explained this decently yesterday. Gonna look over stuff later today to get a better idea but this feels like a good jumping off point.

[Davsto]

¿Qué pasa? my fellow townies

If I told you all that I had insider knowledge about the setup would anybody believe me?

is it that there's two scum left

[Davsto]

If you genuinely do you should choose to replace out and report the person who told you if it involved breaking rules as I imagine it did

Please don't ruin this game, team mafia is being fucked up enough as it is

[Davsto]

Because the night was extended? I disagree that it's indicative of anything tbh

[Davsto]

If we can't talk about it you shouldn't have mentioned it at all you fucking imbecile

[Davsto]

If you have knowledge from such a source you're not allowed to talk about how you got that info then you shouldn't have that info and should have voluntarily replaced out but good job I guess

[Davsto]

I mean honestly I still think there's a chance you're wrong or bullshitting because I have zero clue why scum would kill you but hey you got insider knowledge who am I to question

[Davsto]

Right lmao are you gonna give any reasons why so you can put your conftown status to good use or you going to keep just calling for votes and making yourself ignorable

[Davsto]

Sorry am busy so can't make a substantial post

Still think Ran is scum

Noticing low activity (I know, pot meets kettle), and I'm guessing people feel a lot like we've already won? I know that it seems likely but effort should still be put in and cockiness is a risk to take. Remember we do only have two lynches left to hit a scum because of Lycan's situation, so it's not as easy as it could have been.

[Davsto]

I think Dunn could easily be scum

but generally speaking I always feel more confident of a scumread if they also have a lot of posts because I have a lot clearer picture of them in my mind whereas I often find it too easy to scumread low-posters without having rly thought much about it yk? It's hard to explain but I think this gets the gist of it across

[Davsto]

The way he briefly dipped into the wagon midday feels very awkward idk if it's a failed bus or a token attempt to look good if he flips red?

But his behaviour as a whole yesterday felt very,, off compared to the first two days. I haven't rechecked in detail but my instincts feel like he was riding being heavily townread day one and two and got a little carried away maybe? Again that's mostly me just thinking off the top of my head I haven't looked properly

[Davsto]

I'm fairly confident I have good reasons in mind why CES wouldn't bus Marquis but I'll check something to solidify that idea sometime soon

[Davsto]

if u think dunn is scum then ran's behaviour should be giving red flags bc right now the lynch was largely between ran and dunn, and ran was trying to railroad it onto being ran and marquis

I see his current Dun vote and will wait a little before commenting on it bc I wanna see how it pans

[Davsto]

Imo for the most part today the most popular candidates for lynch are ranmaru and Dunn - a couple of others want other players lunch but for the most part ran/dun are most popular, so the day seems to be going in the direction of ran vs dun

And Ranmaru was campaigning hard for the lynch to be between him and marquis

Imo it came across as scum awkwardly trying to get the lynch off of being between a choice between two scum?

[Davsto]

davsto: where did your LQ vote go?

I changed my mind on him and think he's probably town and there are way more clear candidates for scum

Also I dislike your analysis, I feel it's coming at everything at an angle of "CES could have done this, why didn't he?" which is a weird angle of reasoning bc just because you would do such-and-such as scum doesn't mean he would

I'll look at it in more detail tonight but my immediate reaction is it's all a bit convoluted and unlikely but hey maybe I'll get a revelation when I read in detail

I'll keep my Ran vote for now ty also will reply to the other posts directed at me soon dw I'm not ignoring yall

[Davsto]

hhh I've been really out of the mood for playing mafia but I'll try my best to make a post tonight

[Davsto]

well I just got kicked off the computer by my brother and my phone is rly bad for phoneposting so I guess I'm not gonna be posting unless I'm let back on later yay

[Davsto]

But his behaviour as a whole yesterday felt very,, off compared to the first two days. I haven't rechecked in detail but my instincts feel like he was riding being heavily townread day one and two and got a little carried away maybe? Again that's mostly me just thinking off the top of my head I haven't looked properly

Can you go more into this? How was I riding being heavily town read?

On day one and two I recall you played a lot more "safe", with a lot more thought out cases and such on your scumreads, and you gathered a large townread. Yesterday, there was a lot of pandering to others and gaining wagons based on their popularity with others over how you actually read them. It felt like you were trying to use your towniness being townread to get votes on players you wanted (and, specifically, not on CES).

Imo for the most part today the most popular candidates for lynch are ranmaru and Dunn - a couple of others want other players lunch but for the most part ran/dun are most popular, so the day seems to be going in the direction of ran vs dun

And Ranmaru was campaigning hard for the lynch to be between him and marquis

Imo it came across as scum awkwardly trying to get the lynch off of being between a choice between two scum?

I guess that makes sens ebut I'm more comfortable with a Dunn lynch than a Ran lynch currently
Maybe those will be my next CES ISO ctrl-f picks

My thoughts are still currently Dunn/Ran scumteam. I'd be happy to vote Dunn, but I'm more confident with Ran, not to mention it'd be wayyy more of a satisfying conclusion to this game to end on the Ran lynch rather than the Dunn lynch.

Ah yes, I agree with that, though rans recent dunn vote does make that theory less likely, but I'll believe ran will lynch dunn (who he has had as a null read the whole game) when the hammer falls.

It comes across a lot like his vote on CES yesterday though - an arbitrary sudden turn onto him being scum, a token effort at distancing and bussing, then switching off very soon and back onto pushing town. I haven't seen the latter since I've been skimming recently but I bet it's happened by now in all honesty, at least the switch off if he's not yet pushing anyone else.
(also as shadoweh mentions in 3651, the case on me scum has gone from weak as it was yesterday to beyond laughable)

CASE 1 - VOTE HISTORY

Gamma Emerald (3) ~ ActionDan, Cogito Ergo Sum, LicketyQuickety 853
LicketyQuickety (3) ~ Ranmaru, Srceenplay, Gamma Emerald 961

enough said

This section is just going to be used an example as to why this whole Lycan post is a pretty bad case. He does this frequently through it - just points outs something that happens and doesn't explain why it makes him scum. What makes LQ scum here? CES is voting on his counterwagon? I could probably find examples of CES doing that for half the playerlist. The case is just so wrong and I'm not going to put in effort to refute each point. Sorry, Lycan, but if you want to convince me of LQ scum you gotta make a better case, but honestly this feels like you're confbiasing yourself - maybe take a step back, scrub your brain of LQ!scum, and look at something else or someone else to get a more fair and balanced idea.

Noticing low activity (I know, pot meets kettle), and I'm guessing people feel a lot like we've already won?

Explain.

We are in a clearly advantaged position as we only need to lynch one scum in two days and have a fairly decent chance each day by probability alone, so people may be feeling like it's not worth putting effort in as it's an easy win from here - I believe Shadoweh said words to that effect, for example.

-Davsto doesn't want LQ because ~~reasons~~

I don't get why you're so stuck on this. I gave reasons for stopping scumreading LQ iirc and haven't scumread him for a while - it's not like I've gone from scumreading him at the end of yesterday to suddenly townreading for no reason.

Unvote

What a fucking shocker

I'm not a huge fan of dans reasoning on Dunn. I think that he's scum. I think ranmaru is more obviously scum though.

I saw his response to my case and I have not found time to respond to it yet, but he just keeps trying to rewrite history w/his opinions.

join me then

[Davsto]

Davsto

: I've generally been playing the same since Day 1, just Day 3 I flip flopped a bit more, and pushed more. I want to ask, why do you bring this up today instead of yesterday (Day 3)?

Because I was taken in by it. I was so set on having townread you the previous two days that I let it slide. As you can see, towards the end of the day I began to turn on that as I opened myself up a bit more to breaking my stuck thinking (I think I may have mentioned having you less town in that post about my reads changing although I don't remember, but you can definitely see me talking about it with regards to CES scum). Once CES flipped scum it became a much more clear thing.

until I can figure out why later tonight.

The name was spelt wrong (it's lick

e

tyquickety).

Mainly because I think ranmaru is more likely to be scum.

That does not answer the question why Dunn deserves to get to LyLo.

The answer is sort of between the lines i.e. Ranmaru deserves to get to Lylo less (I am chipping in because that's my answer too).

[Davsto]

Dunn voting LQ is hilarious and scummy

I still wanna lynch Ranmaru because I think he's more likely scum and provides the game with a more satisfying townwin as it ends on the bang on lynching someone who evaded being scumread for the first two days rather than a little fizzle out on a scumlurker but I'll move to Dunn if it's really necessary (and I'd urge that TSQ and two others join when needed)

But really Ran is scum and I'm more confident since Dunn could potentially (that's a very weak potentially but one nonetheless) be bad town here whereas Ran doesn't to me.

I'd appreciate the three (3) non-voting people at least put their votes somewhere (preferably on Ran of course) because it's approaching the last three days and that's somewhat ridiculous.

[Davsto]

okay guys when i asked you all to at least put your votes somewhere i didn't expect you to be idiots and just plonk them on lq

[Davsto]

oh I thought actiondan voted lq too nvm

[Davsto]

Marquis (5) ~

Cogito Ergo Sum

, Dunnstral, Gamma Emerald, Ranmaru, Thestatusquo 2578
Marquis (5) ~

Cogito Ergo Sum

, Dunnstral, Gamma Emerald, Thestatusquo,

LicketyQuickety

2629

seriously if ya'll aren't looking at the voting data you're missing out

with spooky colors added

Wow! LQ voted! On the same wagon as CES!! Obvious proof of LQ scum!

I guess Dunn, GE, Ran and TSQ are all scum too

[Davsto]

I'm literally never voting for LQ unless someone convinces me that the arguments for why I think he's town are wrong.

No one who is voting him has even attempted to do that.

I will switch over to dunn if that will counter this absolutely bizarre wagon. OR you people could come join me on ranmaru because no one but gamma has put any effort into interacting with my case.

Dan where the fuck are you. Davsto where the fuck are you.

are u asking me to interact with your ran case because I don't see the purpose of interacting with a case arguing that someone i think is scum is scum, I feel like my agreement should be implied yk

I'm sorry I've been busy, I'll get back and try and come up with some concrete reasoning on Ran so everyone can stop voting silly wagons

In the meantime I'll reiterate Ran's very scummy behaviour early in the day, shifting the wagons from being on Dunn/him to him/Shadoweh, arguing from the position that he didn't want the day to be "just dunn" and instead should be dueling him/Shadoweh? When surely he should be arguing for Dunn to be one of the applicable candidates if that's the point he's arguing from. Also note his random turn to Dunn!scum to vote on him, and that vote has now been removed - very reminscent of what he did with CES yesterday.

[Davsto]

Dunn voting LQ is hilarious and scummy

Who should I be voting?

maybe the person who i've been saying was scum (you know, Ranmaru)

But in particular not LQ since you said in your previous post to the one you voted in "I'm not convinced that LQ posting is coming from scum right now though" yet he now has a vote to which you have given no reason. See my issue with it? It's bad

[Davsto]

I still want Dan but if no one will come off of LQ I'll go for that instead

Or you could vote Ranmaru who is actually scum and you have definitely expressed interest towards. LQ is a lazy vote and is more likely to be bad town that scum and from your reluctance I think that you know that

LQ has no more votes on him than Ran right now

[Davsto]

Why is my lq vote hilarious and scummy? Because it's not what you want?

hmm maybe it's the reasons i said in my post

maybe

[Davsto]

No, I'm not asking who you think I should be voting. I'm asking who I should be voting - I don't scumraed ranmaru and won't be voting there, there's a number of reasons for this. Where should I be voting, then?

you should reread, reconsider your townread on him, realise it's probably wrong, and vote there, duh

[Davsto]

readslist for ranmaru:

Scum (i.e. would vote today) - Ran, Dunn
Weak town (i.e. probably would not vote today but could be first considered if one of the above flips town) - ActionDan, Shadoweh, maybe Gamma but with his recent posting he belongs more in...
Town (i.e. would not vote today, unlikely to be reconsidered except if there is a strong reason to) - TSQ, LQ

[Davsto]

Not really got full time to make a ran case but a quick think leads to one post that really stands out as the pinnacle of scumminess

Lycanfire, Davsto, NSG, Dunnstral. Tell me what you think of what I have said regarding [Gamma, Quick, Shea], and tell me if you would be willing to compromise to one of them today. I'm going to sleep for now. Ciao.

Look at this. He's asking four people to "compromise lynch", when three of them are voting CES who is, as you can see...

Votecount 3.16

Cogito Ergo Sum(5)

~ Lycanfire(41), Davsto(21), northsidegal(105), LicketyQuickety(272), Thestatusquo(117)

Ranmaru(1)

~ Marquis(26)

Marquis(1)

~ Cogito Ergo Sum(50)

Dunnstral(1)

~ ActionDan(57)


Not Voting (3): Gamma Emerald(140), Dunnstral(11), Ranmaru(331)

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

Day 3 deadline is in (expired on 2018-03-02 07:15:00)

MOD REMINDERS

Dunnstral needs a prod. The last post was at: 2/26/2018 3:45:00 PM which was 2 days 9 hours 34 minutes 0 seconds ago.

... is at L-1. This doesn't just come across like town townreading someone and trying to get the lynch off them. The dodgy wording and beyond questionable logic is insane. This is a seemingly desperate attempt to get people off a scumlynch and to kill the momentum a little.

I know it looks a lot like my main reasoning for Ran scum was his defence of CES. And while that may be someone accurate, to a large extent it's less that he did hard defend scum and more the way he did it, this being one example.
Another is how he tried to intimidate Gamma into not hammering CES earlier on with the post

If he hammers instant lynch him tomorrow.

which is, again, pretty bad. It looks a lot trying to scare GE into not hammering in case he's uncertain. Remember this is white flag, and losing just one team member this early can be really devastating for the scum team.

Keep in mind with all these examples that Ranmaru had previously expressed a scumread enough to vote CES about

two irl days

before the first of these two posts. This conviction is basically out of nowhere and is quite jarring. It does not feel natural at all.

This is a short case and I'm sorry I couldn't provide more but I was busy today. This will be basically my last opportunity to post before the deadline with the exception of a brief time window tomorrow. My vote will remain on Ranmaru for the remainder of the day and I hope for people to vote him. The only exception is if Dunnstral (who I also considerably scumread for much more obvious reasons) looks he's close to lynch - I will have brief time to vote on this. I will not be voting anyone else unless someone posts something unbelievably convincing.

[Davsto]

What the fuck was that TSQ vote bullshit? Ranmaru was clearly bluffing and panicking. The fact that the momentum was put onto it by Dunn and Ran is even more of a red flag.

I still want a Ran lynch but I think it seems impossible at this point.

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Davsto]

Dunn, you have some fucking nerve asking me to justify my vote on you when you've barely justified an action the whole damn game.

How about how your TSQ vote seems to be based more on the chance that someone would join you on him and lynch him over any actual scumread? How about how you called me to see if anyone would potentially vote me? How about how you and Ranmaru have both been very closely pushing these things to get the momentum up quicker? How about the way you're acting in attempting to vote based on who would be lynched rather than who you've actually stated as your scumreads absolutely mirrors the way that Ran was acting towards the end of yesterday? How about all these things being within the last 24 hours when you've finally actually upped your posting?

Fucking hell Dun

[Davsto]

How about how your TSQ vote seems to be based more on the chance that someone would join you on him and lynch him over any actual scumread?

There was no support for tsq when I started that.

Yes, but multiple people had stated some interest, hence why I used the words "someone would join you on him" not "people were already voting on him".

[Davsto]

Dunn, you have some fucking nerve asking me to justify my vote on you when you've barely justified an action the whole damn game.

We're not playing the whole game right now, we're playing the day four lynch. Or at least I am.

How does this even slightly counter my point?

How about how you and Ranmaru

You're not voting Ranmaru.

Yes but I've been voting him this entire fucking day but since there was little chance of him being lynched I switched to someone I've also been calling scum the entire fucking day

How about the way you're acting in attempting to vote based on who would be lynched rather than who you've actually stated as your scumreads absolutely mirrors the way that Ran was acting towards the end of yesterday?

Me mirroring Ranmaru - wait he's a living, unflipped player - what are you on about?

This is white flag with two scum left. Associatives are really important as both scum know that either of them being lynched will cause a loss. Looking for people acting very much together and in each others' favour is very important. Also, Ranmaru is someone who I've been very much thinking is scum. You two working together on votes gives them a bit extra momentum that might move town onto mislynches.

You're smarter than this. You're panicking. These "counterpoints" are beyond ridiculous.

I have to go now. Please, ActionDan or GE (or Ran although I'm hardly expecting you to), vote Dun. Thanks.

Seriously, anyone, just read this dunn post. It's bad.

[Davsto]

Davsto I'm not going to entertain you whining about my gameplay over the course of the game - I've contributed more than you have during day four, full stop. It is day four right now, I am trying to piece this together, you sit in the back row and say it's me and ranmaru without interacting with our clear or anybody else really

Oh wow you've been contributing more than me at the point where scum play is most important wow what a good townie play woweeee

[Davsto]

Yeah my hope is we all hold hands and vote shadoweh tomorrow. Is it realistic? well, if this End of Day has proven anything, quite possibly!

If TSQ is scum Ranmaru yeah, I again didn't pull the trigger, but I can't feel bad about it.

Good night and best wishes to all, even Lycan.

I will not be voting Shadoweh tomorrow. The only way I'll reconsider is if one of my scum candidates flips town or magically acts very townie.

[Davsto]

well ran is probably town

[Davsto]

well ran is probably town

Can you tell me why you think that? I felt kind of similar at the end of the day based on tone, but its hard for me to disregard the rest of how I feel about the slot, but I have a hard time figuring out who his partner would be besides dunn. The only other option is gamma imo.

Also, are we NLing today or are we just going for it? I think my preference is to NL to get the numbers.

Besides many of my scum-Ran reasons sort of being based in my head and on paper around a Ran/Dunn team, the scum!Ran that defended CES like he did would have quickly let the Dun mislynch happen rather than arguing against it as he did, as it would help discredit me somewhat (a hard Ran-pusher) and reduce the heat on him (since I know I at least considered a lot of the Ran-scum evidence to come from him and Dun).

Obviously that could just be improved scumplay yesterday but it seems a bit of a stretch to say that.

[Davsto]

Why did you vote for ranmaru all day and then switch to dunn reluctantly if many of your reasons for voting ranmaru were based on Dunn being scum together???

This doesn't really ring true to me.

Am I losing my mind?

To a certain extent it was a silly matter of pride - to me, a Ran lynch was much more satisfying to end the game on than a Dun lynch. Plus there were a couple of Ran things (e.g. his CES defence) that were independent of Dun, and with Ran being a higher volume poster it meant my read was more confident since there was more to go off. My Dun vote wasn't an "ugh I guess I'll vote this to prevent nolynch", it was "my preferred scumlynch isn't an option so I'll go for this slightly less preferred (but still likely scum) lynch".

Davsto: Who do you think is scum today?

Genuinely? Not a fucking clue. One of my main two scumreads flipped town (Dun), my other main one I now have doubts enough that I don't wish to lynch (you), and one of my people who I was going to look at harder today has also flipped town (AD). I've been left in... quite the predicament, because honestly I've weakened on my shadoweh scumread now so I literally think that all four of GE/LQ/TSQ/Shadoweh could potentially be scum.

Honestly I'm up for a nolynch too because literally any death would be useful to me (except my own but that could still help the gamestate). I was doubting it because it does mean we have to get the entire town voting scum tomorrow to win (since scum won't bus to lynch) but I'm so stuck on reads it'd be helpful. Not gonna vote yet because I don't know how many it takes to nolynch.

@mod - How many does it take to nolynch? Is it the number of players it takes to lynch (i.e. 4) or is it a number of players such that a lynch cannot be reached with the remained (i.e. 3)?

[Davsto]

VOTE: No lynch

NL-1

Not ignoring questions, just won't answer until tomorrow because nolynching and not giving scum info and stuff

[Davsto]

Still fair good with putting Ran town. Less certain about others. I've been townreading tsq all game so I'm hesitant to scumread him over others, especially since the whole anger at LQ thing seems a little too real to be faked. But then again I can also see scum getting equally frustrated in the same situation, scumread for the wrong reasons etc etc. LQ is a wildcard at this point.

Some things that have been sloshing around in my head for a few days that have previously caused me to just nullify an idea for a read are starting to come around in my head to potentially hint at Shadoweh scum, but I should investigate further before taking it too seriously because it's a little tentative.

[Davsto]

Davsto, same from you. Can I get your top three suspects you would vote out and why?

Could you, uh, not just read the post a bit before this? It hasn't got an order (and tbh I still couldn't give you one now) but it has the top three and why.

[Davsto]

I think Shadoweh is Scum just as much as I think shea is Scum. Both players from that slot have been supremely underwhelming and it makes justifying a TR on them pretty much non-existent.

What exactly makes tsq's play "underwhelming"?

[Davsto]

Oh yeh I see that now you point it out. You saying "both players" confused me a little oops

[Davsto]

Okay so my shadoweh lead is basically that I looked at CES' iso in the last team mafia white flag (2015, he was town) to see what his opinion of bussing was, and it was definitely not the "mafia would never ever bus" opinion he was pushing this game. I feel it's gotta mean something but the more I think about it the more it could just as easily be a bluff (i.e. he made a big point about not bussing and actually wasn't bussing) as him actually trying to hide his bussing.

[Davsto]

Of course the fucking 1v1 is between the two players I'm least certain about either way

Of fucking course

[Davsto]

I'm sorry everyone but my posting is very limited. Mafia scum is having issues with my and my internet (both phone and pc) can't connect to it. Only my mobile data can. This is an issue as my mobile data is very limited (750MB) and my phone is shit for posting. As a result, I really cannot properly engage right now. I'll try my best but it's extremely problematic.

[Davsto]

Davsto didn't vote her, due to not being sure about LQ v Shadoweh. Yet he didn't really try to solve that. I feel like he was put in a position he wouldn't want to be in. That's all. I could see more reason to believe you may be town over Davsto.

I was waiting for tsq to vote, to see if he would or not (and if he would them who). It would have really helped narrow down teams. I didn't want to say this because obviously it would influence his posting

[Davsto]

At the moment I'm still fairly stable on Ran town (although his logic for me being scum is absolutely wild) but it's honestly still anyone and I hate that, another reason for my disengagement.

[Davsto]

Davsto, what do you think of Shea voting outside of LQ v Shadow?

It makes sense and, regardless of his alignment, it's the only logical vote for him right now while he has me as lock town. NAI, as far as I am concerned.

By this logic, by the way, davsto should be voting me if he thinks that ranmaru is for sure town.

I used the term "fairly stable" because I still have doubts, one of which is expressed in that post. It's definitely not for sure. We're in lylo, and a town-on-town vote is able to be quickhammered by scum and so can lead to a game loss, so I'm not willing to put it down yet.

[Davsto]

that's not right either sorry

[Davsto]

Ran is right. It's not quite the 1v1 that would make it 1000% certain but it's pretty clear that the scumteams are either TSQ/Shadoweh or Ran/LQ, and I'm all but confirmed town

At the moment I'm definitely leaning towards the scumteam being the former TSQ/Marquis. But I'm also very aware of the worrying fact that like,, two game days ago I'd have stated with absolute certainty that it was Ran/LQ so I'm gonna take my time and be a bit wary. Will make sure to give a fair amount of time before deadline to vote so that if I vote one of the L-2s there's time for another to hammer. But there are two irl days and I might as well use it to mull things over so I can at least say I tried if I fuck it up lmao

[Davsto]

yes mum i'm here dw

[Davsto]

Well I've thought everything over and I have to vote now since I likely won't be up early enough in the morning

[Davsto]

I've been thinking everything over, looking at some key interactions, and although I'm not really confident in my vote I'm more confident with it than I'd be with the other option. Sorry to the town and my team if I fuck this up.

VOTE: Shadoweh

[Davsto]

yay/thank fuck

[Davsto]

also thankyou for modding math you did a great job! The vote scraping bot was super handy especially

[Davsto]

it was cheetory6

[Davsto]

it was [most recently banned user]