Team Mafia 2018: White Flag — Day Six

[Thestatusquo]

isn't postie doing the same thing?

[Dunnstral]

I went and found an Eddie town game.

Holy shit he needs rope right the fuck now

I um.
Well fine then.
VOTE: EddieFenix

What are you guys seeing, can you point it out

[Gamma Emerald]

I went and found an Eddie town game.

Holy shit he needs rope right the fuck now

I compared this to that, I feel like he's a bit more muted than that game but his play seems to be coming off similar in tone

[LicketyQuickety]

@Dunn

- Link me some games that show Tchill has a meta of lurking as scum?

Hm, I actually can't find any

There's still the matter of his actual posting looking different to where he is town, though

I'm kind of eyeing Cogito Ergo Sum and wondering if they're white knighting/defending scum and wondering if it's better to just go for them instead

Doing Pre-Flip is almost always not helpful.

[Postie]

isn't postie doing the same thing?

Llamarble already linked a scum game.

What are you guys seeing, can you point it out

I compared this to that, I feel like he's a bit more muted than that game but his play seems to be coming off similar in tone

You'll notice that in the town game he's quick to start asking questions, giving reads, and actively trying to sort the people he's unsure on. There's actual, obvious game-solving happening, unlike here and in the scum game Llamarble linked where his ISO is full of fluff and the odd token question that he doesn't pursue or use to reach a conclusion. Idk how to explain this further without doing a post by post analysis. Which I might do.

[Thestatusquo]

isn't postie doing the same thing?

Llamarble already linked a scum game.

What are you guys seeing, can you point it out

I compared this to that, I feel like he's a bit more muted than that game but his play seems to be coming off similar in tone

You'll notice that in the town game he's quick to start asking questions, giving reads, and actively trying to sort the people he's unsure on. There's actual, obvious game-solving happening, unlike here and in the scum game Llamarble linked where his ISO is full of fluff and the odd token question that he doesn't pursue or use to reach a conclusion. Idk how to explain this further without doing a post by post analysis. Which I might do.

no I was responding to dunn saying ces is scum because hes trying to get a lynch other than tchill. I'm just pointing out that you're doing the exact same thing.

[Dunnstral]

@Dunn

- Link me some games that show Tchill has a meta of lurking as scum?

Hm, I actually can't find any

There's still the matter of his actual posting looking different to where he is town, though

I'm kind of eyeing Cogito Ergo Sum and wondering if they're white knighting/defending scum and wondering if it's better to just go for them instead

Doing Pre-Flip is almost always not helpful.

I accounted for both alignment possibilities, the read doesn't rely on tchill's alignment. What doesn't seem to be helpful here is your use of buzzwords?

[Dunnstral]

isn't postie doing the same thing?

Llamarble already linked a scum game.

What are you guys seeing, can you point it out

I compared this to that, I feel like he's a bit more muted than that game but his play seems to be coming off similar in tone

You'll notice that in the town game he's quick to start asking questions, giving reads, and actively trying to sort the people he's unsure on. There's actual, obvious game-solving happening, unlike here and in the scum game Llamarble linked where his ISO is full of fluff and the odd token question that he doesn't pursue or use to reach a conclusion. Idk how to explain this further without doing a post by post analysis. Which I might do.

no I was responding to dunn saying ces is scum because hes trying to get a lynch other than tchill. I'm just pointing out that you're doing the exact same thing.

Okay but I'm engaging with Postie too

[Thestatusquo]

sure, but I'm just wondering what is the cause of your markedly different tone between how you're engaging with postie and ces considering they're basically doing the same thing?

[Dunnstral]

I don't know what you mean when you say my tone is markedly different between postie and ces

[Llamarble]

Well, if two people are doing something and one of them is probably town (Postie) and the other is sketchy (CES), it's fine to focus on the scummy doer of the thing.

[LicketyQuickety]

@Dunn

- Link me some games that show Tchill has a meta of lurking as scum?

Hm, I actually can't find any

There's still the matter of his actual posting looking different to where he is town, though

I'm kind of eyeing Cogito Ergo Sum and wondering if they're white knighting/defending scum and wondering if it's better to just go for them instead

Doing Pre-Flip is almost always not helpful.

I accounted for both alignment possibilities, the read doesn't rely on tchill's alignment. What doesn't seem to be helpful here is your use of buzzwords?

LOL.

OK. I am using buzzwords (assuming you mean pre-flip).

You basically stated that ECS read was based on them WKing Chill, what am I missing?

[Llamarble]

Getting a little happier about Dunnstral
TOWN
Me
TSQ
NSG

Gamma
Postie
Ranmaru

Lycan
Dunnstral
Davsto
Marquis

I think this might actually be my null line?

LQ
AD
CES
Tchill
Eddie

[Thestatusquo]

llamarble I am really confused as to why you're switching off your scum read that is being wagoned to vanity vote a slightly higher scum read?

[Llamarble]

@Dunn

- Link me some games that show Tchill has a meta of lurking as scum?

Hm, I actually can't find any

There's still the matter of his actual posting looking different to where he is town, though

I'm kind of eyeing Cogito Ergo Sum and wondering if they're white knighting/defending scum and wondering if it's better to just go for them instead

I went and found an Eddie town game.

Holy shit he needs rope right the fuck now

I um.
Well fine then.
VOTE: EddieFenix

What are you guys seeing, can you point it out

Specifically liked these two.
One, he's not just coasting it out on Tchill, he's pushing it (postcount stuff) but remaining interested in alternatives.
Second one is viable from both alignments obviously but does fit into overall engagement and interest in making a good end to D1 over riding out Tchill lynch.
Also I think these posts make most of his potential scumbuddy pairings somewhat unlikely

(ALTHOUGH: Beware of ruling someone out because they don't have potential scumbuddies. That is how I won Team Mafia White Flag round 1 as scum)


P. Edit:
I am basically voting both of them right now. I might hammer TChill myself once we get some more interactions out of that slot.

[Thestatusquo]

ok that helps.

thats where I'm at with LQ-tchill.

[Ranmaru]

Spoiler: Page 1-10

Huh, that was pretty easy.
VOTE: Postie
I'm a little curious if you're intentionally obvscum
Might be worth lynching even if intentional though

I don't like the beginning for Llamarble, but I can understand it if it is what I think it is, trying to get things rolling.

that's posturing if i've ever seen it.

VOTE: llamarble

I can see why you would think that.

To be clearer: why is your reaction not a) asking Llamarble what he's talking about, or b) voting me to put extra pressure on me?

This is where I think you start to go wrong, Postie. His post doesn't seem genuine at the start, I would have voted him for it, without asking a question. I think it's situational, sometimes you ask a question to clarify an issue, sometime you feel strongly about the post that you just skip that part and simply vote and state a suspicion. Question to you here is, why should it be either of option a) or b) rather then c) Voting with reasoning. I do like your effort though, it is genuine and it reminds me of our previous game. I kind of check out from that conversation between NSG and Postie after that, not as interested. So far, I did like NSG's reaction to Llama.

Two votes instead of one creates more pressure and more focused pressure.

Again, I felt there was no reason to. Why add a vote to a player who you feel scum might be lazily voting already. I do agree that two votes is better so there could be early wagons, but you didn't deserve that many at the time. If you feel you have a better lead, go for it instead of just bandwagoning. Now if there was no better lead, sure bandwagon to help scum have incentive to join so you can sniff them out later.

Agreed.

Vote: 'marble

Why did you vote Marble here?

Don't like this post. In general, town is best served by existing the RVS as quickly as possible. So often times town pushes in RVS ARE ridiculous on face and ARE forced. I would expect a town player who is earnestly attempting to create information to read much the same as a scum player who is trying to "fake it" because definitionally we have no information to attack.

I don't see why voting Llamarble over Postie in that situation would stagnate RVS, allowing her to hide if she wanted. Is bandwagoning a priority to voting someone you feel has a slightly better chance to be scum then the bandwagon target? I like to shoot from the hip, so if I see a post like Llama's, I attack hard and that can also gain reactions and progress the game, no?

LQ is it weird that I responded to a thought you had and then you stated you were caught up and that you were open for questions but completely ignored that like the LAST POST had been a thought directed at you?

Or is it just me that I think that's weird.

Asking for four friends.

I like this post. It shows that LQ was more interested in focusing on my slot rather then consider your anecdote with Llamarble. Which, he should care about and consider if he thinks Llama's post had no point. He tells you your thoughts but it's too late, it's after you implied that he didn't really care to consider it.

Don't like how fast the Marquis wagon got going, especially when not everyone has even checked in yet (as far as I am aware).

Making it harder for scum to just ease into the game seems like a good thing to me. What downside do you see to the Marquiswagon?

So, I start to notice this trend you are having. You are focusing on debating with LQ here instead of pushing for your scumread on Llamarble, which I still don't know why you are still pushing.

i think her forced line of questioning is more likely to come from scum than town, so she's a scumlean for now.

I have seen her do that as town lover. That's her playstyle, I think. I haven't seen her play as scum though, yet I feel she is being genuine here, just wrong.

Pretty confident on Eddie Fenix and lq being town

Why?

tchill are you scum dude? I don't want to let nsg go because they just disappeared without doing anything to dispel that read but also I think you might be scum.

I think you are wrong on NSG. Earlier on I noticed you voted her for wifom but that's null to me. Plus I disagree with the other reasoning in that same post, since I can understand her mindset. With Tchill, I notice he is responding to people which is easier then fleshing out his stances on who he believes is scum. He hadn't really gone into that, nor did he seem to care to. Sort of like he's posting in thread with easy things to have a presence, while not really doing much. It's similar to CES, who lacks presence, and isn't pushing his scumread either. (Note that they both respond to LQ's sentiments about Marquis's wagon taking off too quickly, which is another comment that seems easy to do)

Let's us know early she's voting weurgts but moves it to marquis shortly after voting weurgts a second time.

The post about the 2 reactions you "should" have pinged me.

I don't understand why this deserves a vote. If I ever feel my lead is exhausted, I move on to lurkers and pressure them to post, next best thing, until I find a stronger lead. This is more null to me. I already explained that the second point seems more genuine, not fueled with scum intent.

Going here to see what happens:

VOTE: chill

Like Eddie, I'm wondering why you voted Chill here.

Was planning to just vote LQ despite Marquis still being a decent place to hang out, but these two give me enough pause not to bother yet.
Still, LQ is an approved wagon for now, I'm just not confident enough in it to push it.
Sell me on these from LQscum. It should be easy, I've halfway sold myself in pedit.

I don't really see much of a direction from LQ. He is missing good questions. See no point in his post on Marq having a wagon grow, no purpose behind that can progress a town win-con.

You don't think his catch-up-style entry to the game felt forced? I'm assuming he's used to a spammier meta than we are and catching up on a 4/5 page game seems weird to me. Achieving a natural game entry as scum is generally not trivial, especially given the Marquiswagon, and this seems like an affectation that would let him sidestep the essential difficulty.

Why are you arguing with Llama instead of voting Tchill here if you think his catch up is forced? I don't really feel you have any solid ground to be voting Llama here. Seems like you are being reserved. Why are you lacking presence this game?

Llamarble is obviously putting all the attention on himself to rile up opportunistic scum. CES immediately jumps on it. I don't like Llamarble talking himself up on a personal level - it's pretentious - so why does he post it? It's because anyone that would actually raise an issue with it is crippled, reaching for low hanging fruit.

VOTE: Cogito Ergo Sum

I only really like the vote. CES does not feel like opportunistic scum to me, more like conservative scum that lacks presence, that isn't really scumhunting.

Also I'm not wild about the fact that your first instinct was to attack me instead of trying to figure out what I meant. As town when someone says something to me that on face doesn't make sense my first reaction is generally to try to clarify, not to fos them.

I find it to be more misguided then scum, and it's sort of what I expect from Gamma. What I have found is that as scum / anti-town he would not be as interested. I'm not for lynching Gamma at this point.

Here is pages 1-10. I am going to continue with the next 20 pages. It will most likely take me double the time, expect two more posts from me tonight.

[Ranmaru]

Spoiler: 11-20

I disagree I guess. Frequently when I'm reading through a game I note things and end up with a list of things that bear no relation to each other. Its not because I'm "switching methodologies" or whatever, its that my methodology is reading the posts and seeing what things stick out to me. For instance, if I player I know well is playing very differently from how I would expect them to I take note of it, but I would also take note of posts by that player that seem to have town motivation behind them. I think most people play this way? I don't want to get too far down the theory rabbit hole but this is game relevant so I do want to talk about it

I agree with you here. It's exactly what I'm doing now, responding to what sticks out to me.

He also notes that LQ is quick (heh) to pump the breaks on marquis when there isn't really any reason too

(wagon deflation? buddying? Genuine town alarm at the growth of the wagon? could be any of these.)

He likes CES calling it out.

I noted the statement, I felt it was more of him trying to say something he thinks town would say. Again, I feel there was really no point to it. I don't think CES was calling him out.

Tell reck I don't have the signature I have fo no reason. And there's no way he can understand that quote by Nacho because reck has never played a single game with me.

This isn't really a response. How does being a non-traditional player relate to what Reck accused you of, pumping the breaks on Marquis when you had no marked reason or progression to?

I am so confused. You said you had a problem with me and said you thought I was shifting the goal posts and then I wrote a response to that to try to explain where my head was at. I would have thought you to at the very least be interested in that response? Idk. I have a hard time figuring out what you're doing most of the time so fuckin' just ignore me I guess I'll be over in this corner babbling like an idiot.

Tells me that he has no interest in sorting you, only in giving you shade. You state issues with him not responding to you earlier, so this feels like he is omgusing you (not really, more like pre-emptive omgus), which is similar to my scum play in Mafia on the Run. (Where I have no idea where to really push, so when Vecna pushes me I push back much harder and somehow get a stance out of that) He doesn't have a pro-town mindset because he wants town to see you shifting the goal posts but doesn't care to talk about you stating that you are just not sure how to discuss his confusing play.

Postie is leaning entirely too much on "my teammates think this and this" It's like she's detaching herself from the game. Also, this is totally what she would be doing as scum here I bet. I'm scumreading her.

Why scum and not town? Do you have meta with her scumwise? I disagree with your Postie vote.

Unpopular opinion: I think Gamma's town.
The vote here and the way he questions TSQ's motives in this post and the ones following feels like it comes from a place of genuine frustration at not being understood.

I have seen him burst into frustration as town before. It sometimes gets him lynched, like in The Thing Mafia (which I repress into my brain). I agree with this sentiment.

Having

CES

, TSQ, Postie all be town, seems lucky but I guess it's not far from 50%

Why is CES Town to you?

VOTE: EddieFenix

Also can we take a moment to discuss the hot garbage that is EddieFenix's ISO
It's just a bunch of sitting back and saying things from the sidelines or am I missing something here

Nothing really pinging me for him, he's sort of null to me. Wouldn't bat an eye if he died though, but I'd rather others die over him.

'Marble, why do you consider Marquis to be the towniest of the three lurkers {Dunnstral, wgeurts, Marquis} when his posts have a) been scummier and his lurking has been more in the style of a scumbag?

Vote: Marquis

Can you elaborate? I don't see it.

So what you're saying is the fact I picked it out means I should have noticed what you thought I should? I guess that's fair, but I guess I was just in tunnel vision.
As for Sauce, I feel like it's a general thing about the way he posts. Another person I feel is one of those "annoying but readable" types is Ramcius.
wrt TSQ, Are you saying the missing of the unvote was towny or that it helped you sort him?

Also Dunn I kinda want to know why you're voting Postie, which is kinda a faded wagon, over me, who has been more contentious currently.

I like the tone of this post, and his willingness to concede.

Didn't Marquise say they were going to be around today? What happened there? And their wagon is now collapsed. I expect some good posts from Marqu.

I would understand your feeling here if you were having trouble generating reads, but it seems you already had some leads. You didn't really do anything with your Tchill vote.

VOTE: marquis

So this vote, it shows me you aren't really trying to sort people. You stick

I think Chill is still very much within his Scum range, is the TL;DR version.

Chill is good at blending in as Scum and tends to make his reads match what benefits him at the time he makes those reads. If someone is TRing him, he may TR them back. If it looks like a Townie is taking pressure, he may throw shade on them. Basic Scum play 101, but he does it in a way that doesn't look too opportunistic and generally gives just enough reason for the reads so people don't question his reads. I said as much in a different game I played with him.

This is the most I have seen you talk about Chill's play here. Yet in your #199 you don't state Chill in a reads list. You then FOS Shea, then you wonder where Marquis is at. Then this:

VOTE: marquis

You vote Marquis, but don't give a reason for leaving Tchill. You never really attack Tchill, you only interact with him after he responds to you. I want to know why you haven't gone into his actual play this game, rather then hedging around him.

Marquis is actually just in danger of being straight up replaced.

That wouldn't be the first time that's happened to a lurkerscum I was wagonning. (It could reasonably be the last time but that's neither here nor there.)

Marquis

is scummy

and I'm certainly not going to let the fact that he's lurking work to his defense. Scum do it and they do it often. Because it works.

CES, it seems like you are responding to this to dissuade people from letting a replacement come in for people to get a read on him instead of just straight up wagoning and lynching him.

Honestly I have seen so many Scum use the argument "No, don't go after lurkers, it's pointless" This is not a Town mindset to have because at what point DO we go after lurkers? If we don't go after lurkers today, then when? Because lurkers hurt Town really really badly late game.

We lynch scum. Lurking is null. If you have any content to read them by, use that. I don't see anything suspicious from Marquis. Also, better to go for lurker D2 if you have suspicious leads D1, for information and connections.

Can you trim down the fucking quote walls guys

I agree, please trim them, Gamma and LQ come to mind. Gamma I have told you this before too.

TChill + Lycan + AD
Will check if they've done associative tells tomorrow. Now sleep.

I'm not feeling Lycan or AD. Although I would like a vote from AD.

Well I just iso'ed her. I just missed that interaction tbh. Plain and simple truth.

Not reading closely enough.

I think Marquis wagon didn't really have a reason to fall apart and I'm not swayed either way by any of their posting, I'd get that going again (I don't really agree with the wagon on tchill either)

VOTE: Marquis

I don't really think he's scum. He's like a mirror version of you except you are now starting to get your feet wet. Also there's the self meta / stress thing.

Gamma - Bad vote aside, it reads like a machine shit out 253. A HUMAN BEING would

show dejection

of being so obviously wrong- they would feel silly, frustrated, or otherwise upset, and from that alone we could observe that

all actions

that came from that premise were as so. Instead Gamma sits there and writes "

I

see that

you

are right

, and

I no longer FoS you

." Compare this to Shea who has real moments of pausing and doubt, real flaws that he doesn't admit and may not even be conscious of. The "bus vote" thing being more likely over Dunnstral choosing a name and going out for lunch feels pretty nefarious in motive. LQ points this out, and I don't feel like they're a viable team despite trying to outscum one another on the same page. There's no proverbial lion in the room that necessitates outrunning your fat friend here. incidental.

Llamarble - He may be Llamarble, but I'm not sure if he is righteous...

No actually he can be quite stubborn, he embraces it.

what were your motivations for that conversation with me? it felt like you were trying to see if you could poke around and find traction to start getting a wagon on me, but no one jumped on it so you abandoned it and moved on. you've thrown a lot of shade my way but have avoided attacking me directly. I think that's kind of what lycan was getting at, and I think its pretty clearly true.

so I'll ask you this: are you scum reading me, and if so: why arent you voting me?

Agreed.

@cogito ergo sum, who are you scumreading and why?

---

I like this. I know CES is a concise player, one I want to emulate in the future, but she has to repeat herself and he doesn't respond. Shows he isn't really scumhunting as I would expect.

You realized you've put your own spin on my motivation without considering things like how I approach the game in general right? Does no one read wiki's anymore? You know I go by Quick, go read that wiki to find out why I am pressing you.

I am not necessarily SRing you, no. I am trying to get a read on you and poking you is one way to do that. I consider you Null at this point in time. Last time I gave you a TR you ended up being Scum so I am not as quick to label you as Town this time around. I'll have to review what people said after I threw some accusations your way.

Lycan uses a lot of colorful wording, but there is a disconnect between what he is representing with enough solid backing that I think he is just creating stories for motivation instead of looking at all possibilities.

It doesn't read like you are trying to get a read on Shea. If you were you would have completed the earlier conversation he asked you about re: Reck and his separate methods of coming to reads. I don't think referring us to your wiki is a valid defense, you haven't really explained your actions in game.

lol i've put off reading this game to the point where i still want to play but know if i say i don't want to read ppl are going to be like "replace out then" w me being too selfish to care

skrew is the only teammate who's been trying to follow along and has most ppl null, llamarble aggressively null, and gamma slightly scummy for ??? (which i agree with based on skimming and sparse content memories but again want to re-sort the whole thing). will ask him to follow up

some1 ask me qs / point me to things to look at so i can get a jumping off point. diving > bellyflopping

At this point I don't really get any scum intent from Marquis's posts. He isn't really contributing, but he doesn't seem to be progressing a scum win condition either.

I am going back here for the time being:

VOTE: Chill

Why are you going back here again?

Mostly how this is working is that I am kinda doing my own thing with this game and the others are working on their games together. It's just the way it worked out. I have asked them a couple questions about this game, but for the most part, I am working alone here and my teammates are working together on the other ones. I am mostly there to take care of keeping things in context so they don't get carried away with going too far off course in thinking about being strategic in how to approach things. I am basically the guy who is taking a big picture, stand back approach and just trying to keep them on course.

What is the point of you guys being in a team in team mafia then if you are playing solo? It's like playing solo q when you are in a team, which means no synergy.

I think this game has become too lopsided. Lots of people voting a single lurker for being a lurker (Marquis) with most people on the wagon having little demonstrated reason for being there. Then you have most of the active players who are fighting amongst themselves mostly and a lot of people who have very little content who are getting by with not doing a whole lot of anything. The state of the game isn't a good one for Town currently - especially considering that a lot of people have expressed that they are Scum read me, whom I consider myself to generally be a Town leader when I am Town. I cannot yet tell who or how many Scum players are going to try and actively push my lynch, but there will most certainly be Scum on my lynch if it happens, so look at those on my wagon upon my lynch.

Homie you were literally voting for that lurker ONE PAGE AGO. With NO EXPLANATION YOURSELF. Literal naked vote. Then you jumped on another wagon without demonstrating or explaining any sort of scum read there. WHY are you voting TChill? WHY did you vote marquis? People aren't scum reading you because you're mechanical, they're scum reading you because you don't seem to care who is lynched and because you're not telling us what your reads are and not explaining them. In the absence of information, what the hell else am I supposed to think?

This is a good post.

And I know why people are Scum reading me. I think Lycan hit on this point and so did Postie a bit.

It's because people are interpreting my play as "mechanical" and for some reason they thing this means I am Scum. Instead, I would say I am trying to play in a logical way with a big picture outlook on the game. That means I am not going to get into specifics of relating what Player X did at point A and compare that to what Player Y did at Point B. I have never played that way so if people expect me to play that way, I am sorry to say that they will be disappointed.

How I play is looking at posts in isolation and seeing if they are internally logical insofar of what I know to be logical comparing this to what I think is the correct way to play

. I sometimes compare a post they made somewhat recently to what they are saying, but I am not going to remember something that someone said on page 5 at this point. I will, however, ISO players occasionally and I will usually do this if someone asks me to.

Bold Underlined, what have you ISO'd about Tchill and Marquis?

VOTE: tsq

Did you ISO TSQ here? This seems like omgus again. He has a problem with your play, and you seem to misrepresent his argument. If you misunderstood and explained why you misunderstood, it would be fine but you ignore the fact that it may have been, and you vote Shea.

Here's the next ten pages (with a few quotes from previous pages because I had to go backwards to understand things better). I'm going to catch up with the next ten pages, then give reads and a vote.

[Ranmaru]

Spoiler: 21-30

You are impressing me with how stupid you are.

Why are you resorting to insults here? You are just sniping him with insults to undermine his position as universal town read.

LQ still looks town to me. Lots of posts I've glossed over admittedly and I probably could use to recheck my read there, but I don't see the scummitude others do.

Can you do that please? Also can you move your vote from Gamma. I don't think he's scum. Give me two scum picks bro.

I still don't know where CES stands in his reads this game and don't know why he thought Marquis was scummy to begin with earlier before the lurking.

Yeah, things aren't really going quite as planned; I thought things would develop more helpfully. The main reasons I found Marquis scummy very early on were 1) his general awkward tone early on and 2) the whole "representative" affectation. I think Signs and Void from last Team Mafia is pretty important context here - his early posts here feel really similar. I think both of those things are more significant than his lurking although his lurking has also felt scum-motivated (but I'd be more hard-pressed to explain the nuts and bolts of that feeling).

You never really explained your early scumread on Marbles. 1) I don't see how an awkward tone would mean it leans towards scum indicative. 2) I thought the representative thing was funny, but don't understand why you find it suspicious. Can you explain those two points?

VOTE: wgeurts

yeah i should have took my vote off postie apologies for that.

This shows that you aren't really caring to scumhunt, just give the appearance that you are.

Eddie, GE, why aren't you voting?

I wonder why you don't ask this question more often. (A good question to ask though)

any particular reason for voting the person being replaced? by the way, tchill has been active elsewhere on site but not here.
VOTE: tchill

As I was following the game I noticed this too. I wondered why he wasn't getting back to defend himself, while I constantly see his posts in other mafia games.

CES -

50/50 on Town/Null

Why is CES town/null?

"6 suspects" / "no CES" in post 430.

Nobody gets upset with someone that gives 11 towns 2 nulls in a mini. They might get upset with which reads fall onto certain people. Saying I can't find >3 people scummy at any given time is disingenuous. I placed a big-ass disclaimer at the beginning of my post that I didn't care about calling a team, working with a theory, and that I was going to put town or scum on everyone. Deal with it. Regarding the lack of CES, if you look closely I spell out "Vote CES" if you apply the Fibonacci sequence to every paragraph.

.... No, seriously, CES is clearly on my mind when I put Tchill in scum territory just for discounting the possibilities of CES. My first point was something I couldn't make heads or tails of, so he landed there purely as a result of my second point. All I was doing was making reads off of interesting developments within 3-4 pages. Deal with it.

:good posting: CES is also on my mind. I have nothing new to add, still lack of presence, not really scumhunting as much because he feels the thread hasn't developed, when it has developed plenty. The game state has been pretty laid back and I am to assume scum are playing it safe.

@lycanfire 606: I was engaging ef,not defending him. shade noted though.

VOTE: LQ
At this point I believe LQ is trying to make the people on his wagon look bad by challenging their opinions.

I agree, good vote.

the way you're challenging them feels like you just want to make them look bad, not that you care to help them

I like this too.

I feel I am doing that by showing them they are wrong. Look, this is pretty standard behavior for me as any alignment. I fight my SR's on me. You can look at pretty much any game and if I am SR then there is a really really good chance that I operate exactly how you are seeing me operate in this game.

It doesn't seem that way to me. You aren't trying to sort them, nor try to get them to see that they are wrong. You are trying to get them off your back, and then when it doesn't work, you vote them. Otherwise, you insult them. That doesn't work if you want to show people that they are wrong.

above post seems like a pretty bizarre overreaction. Forced?

Not beyond the norm for Gamma.

I assume you're asking about the second sentence since the VC should be self-evidently bad with the votes spread across 9 different people.

With Tchill, I see like 2 things that feel definitely scummy to me (the faux catch-up at the start, #212), some big picture "lack of scumhunting"-scumminess but then you also have his off-the-wall theory about Postie being coached (especially in the context of him disavowing team mafia-based theories) which is a nice town tell. It looks to me like a wagon driven by relatively crude heuristics.

What do you think of Tchill avoiding this game and posting in others right now? How does that affect your read on him?

Unvote, vote: Postie

No.

I'm going to hard no sir a postie lynch today.

Same.

Yeah ok.
VOTE: Tchill
My guess going into Night One is Tchill CES AD. Gamma has done a few things that do me a concern but overall is still probably town.
(although AD's "I doubt Chess would give a different read on Eddie" gives me a reservation there, so probably just CES next if Tchillscum)

Let's let Tchill say something before hammer, maybe he's just waiting for his moment to obvtown, but I don't see a better lynch for today.

I don't see scum in AD. More like AD being wrong.

Anyone interested in a last-minute actually good wagon on GE for that gross case in #702?

Unvote, vote: Gamma Emerald

No.

Sup Ranmaru.

I can't begin to express how happy I am that you are not vonflare.

Thanks. Nothing much. Nice to meet you.

Spoiler: Reads

Ranmaru

TSQ - Good presence in thread, most active and scumhunting.

POSTIE - Consistent scumhunting since early game, even though some of it is misguided, it is also what I have experienced with town postie.

Gamma - I like his recent contributions to the thread. His frustration seems normal to me. As scum he loses interest and doesn't put that much effort into cases, he kind of lurks until he's wagoned for not doing anything at all, and then makes excuses. He also has good tone here.

Llamarbles - I like his presence as well, although not not as present as TSQ. Yet it compliments him and I can agree to some of his reads. Hey look see Llama, that last game we played in years ago was a fluke.

Lycan - I liked his analysis on CES, and his reads. I only really like his push on CES, though.

NSG - I like her persistence in questioning CES on his scumreads, and I liked her early game response to Llama, it would be similar to what I would have done.
Dunnstrals - I like that he is getting into the game at this point. Don't know why he was less present in early game.
AD - I kind of need a vote from AD to get a better feel on him.

MARQUIS - null, I don't see scum intent but want a bit more from him
WSGEURTS - null not even here
EDDIE - null but can see what postie is saying, just doesn't stick out to me as much as T L C. Don't want no scrubs.

Tchill - Seems to post in thread for the appearance of being present, without any solid analysis. Weird vote on WGEURTZ and weird apology, which signifies guilt. Avoiding the game while playing others, and gives no indication of why.

CES - Lacks presence. Isn't scumhunting in early to mid day. Most recent votes are bad. Trying hard to avoid Tchill wagon, doesn't comment on the fact Tchill is avoiding the thread pretty hard.

LQ - Scum for omgusing Shea, and developing a read on him without being proactive. Instead he was being reactive, and isn't trying to sort him. He also misses important questions and does not try to answer them. His votes don't make sense.

[LQ > CES > Tchill > Eddie]

Vote: LQ

[Ranmaru]

I think we should lynch LQ today, and we can get good connections to others like CES and Tchill. Again, LQ has omgused shea and developed a read on him in a reactive manner, not a proactive manner. He isn't trying to sort Shea, and he hasn't analyzed Tchill when he voted him, he resorted to meta instead. He's been hedging around him, falling back on his vote on Tchill, Marq, Tchill, then Shea, etc. I don't believe that his team mates are also not helping him, because this is also a team game, doesn't make sense to go all solo. I think anything else right now is a distraction, and I really dislike CES's votes on Postie and Gamma.

Lynch LQ Today

, and sleep soundly. I work evenings most of the week but luckily I have off Thursday and Friday. We don't have much time left, let's not flounder around. I am going to sleep, sorry for quadruple post.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

CES, it seems like you are responding to this to dissuade people from letting a replacement come in for people to get a read on him instead of just straight up wagoning and lynching him.

It would've been quite nice if this Day had turned out like that. But I also certainly don't have that kind of power!

I'm not going to respond to all your comments in detail (some of them were already answered later on for one) but yes, my early game was a bit lacking - I thought other people saw similar things in Marquis as I did so I didn't really feel the need to pressure him so much. Obviously, that turned out to be wrong and I probably squandered an opportunity there.

What do you think of Tchill avoiding this game and posting in others right now? How does that affect your read on him?

It affects my read about as much as the town meta Dunnstral brought up when it takes a minute to dig up a similarly active scum game - i.e. not much at all in the absence of any proposed pathway [Tchillscum]->[Tchill posts less than he normally does]. There's certainly no inherent motivation for him to lurk here - the timing means it's just locking him in as the lynch.

[Llamarble]

I feel I am doing that by showing them they are wrong. Look, this is pretty standard behavior for me as any alignment.

Sounds an awful lot like "I also do this as town!"

With LQ not on it this Tchill wagon is massively town. If Tchill does flip town, Do Not Assume there is a scum on the wagon. I wouldn't be surprised if there are zero (currently) on it, even with a townflip from Tchill.

[Llamarble]

(All town wagon on town is something i have seen scum with daytalk arrange and I've done it myself too)
Especially happens when there is only 1 wagon.
So yeah don't insist on an on wagon lynch regardless tchill flip.
That is one of town's loss vectors and if we keep those shut we should win.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

On second thought, 702 isn't really a case.
He reads Tchill, sees some stuff he doesn't like but mostly eh, and is alright with voting him.

If it had been mostly eh, that would've been fine. But I think that's you overlaying your own viewpoint. I'd characterise maybe two of his comments as "eh" and the rest as accusatory on some level or another. You don't get to throw that many slushy snowballs unless you're looking to do so.

#702 for reference.

That is one of town's loss vectors and if we keep those shut we should win.

You know what's also a town loss vector? Bleh lynches.

[EddieFenix]

I like how you criticise Llamarble for not sorting his reads the "right" way when you've commented on maybe two people's alignment this whole game.

Shade throw noted.

town frequently changes opinions on people, sometimes rapidly. This is the mindset of someone trying to find scum. Scum players are the ones who tend to care about consistency of reads.

I've seen plenty of Scum utilize the "disconnect and confuse Town" approach.

Your hard defense of Llama is noted tho.

This is why I'm having such a difficult time with Marble. On one end, I see Marble as town, on the other end, something sits in the back of my head on Marble being scum, but the rational part says town over scum. Hence my conundrum and me wanting him to get his reads straight. He literally reaches out to me and I'm like, here's the stick, just do me a favor and get things straight so we can have a full length discussion on the why of it because of the ever shifting nature, he then (in his post that I have quoted), says he has his reads straight. I go from town, to scum, to lynchbaity, to whatever I get to when I finally catch up on page 33. My "crazy theory" that I talked about with GE was exactly that. Just a theory, a GAME THEORY. Thanks for reading (tm). But the more I sit down and try to rattle and rational it in my head, it's like.... "Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, MAYBE this is right?! No, it can't be because that would be too easy. Hang on, ripping what's left of my balding hair out."

Get your act together. Get your reads in a lined up, orderly fashion, and we can chat. This day to day, whip lash, flip-a-zoo, shifting sands reads game isn't gonna keep flying with me when I have to keep figuring out who all you have as town and scum. If tomorrow is different AGAIN, I might need a table flip gif. Cause right now, this is where I am

I'm giving a complete readslist on a regular basis; my reads ARE in a lined up orderly fashion.
I can't help that my reads change as I read and reread the game.
This kind of post is why you're in the D1 lynchpool though.
Keeping careful track of everyones' reads is what scum do because they need to figure out what mislynch to pursue.
Why is "figuring out who all you have as town and scum" so important to you?
There's so much information in this game you can use to figure out who got which role PMs; by focusing on the information scum wants and not paying much attention to the things towns normally care about (you know, identifying and lynching scum), you are practically BEGGING us to lynch you.
Reads.
Reasons.

You can help it, mate. I've played scum with you and we both know our playstyles.
If that's the case, then where's your vote on me?! Literally, where the hell are the votes on me? If I am "BEGGING" to be lynched as you put it, why aren't people already voting me? I'll glady die if it gives the town information as to who the scum team is or who they could be based on my death and the n1 kill. I'm not trying to "figure out what mislynch to pursue", I want scum day 1 if I can have it. I'm a man with literally nothing to lose here except a vote and trying to be a logical voice for the town.

Mm, in the picture in my head they are town at least somewhat.
Why does this upset you?

We actually don't have much time left. I hope I can chunk time in tomorrow (30th) to try for a final solve. 3/15 is so hard
My subconscious is really concerned about Postie.

I don't care about that I just want to lynch correctly D1 before I go poof.
Eddie feels sorta lynchbaity; wking for gamma then pushing eddie feels like how I would play this as scum, but Postie has done a good job on word choices and stuff at a few points idk

Day bells are rining, are you listenin? In the game, scum is whistlin. A beautiful sight, we're having tonight, walkin around in Team Mafia 2018!!! (real talk: If that's the case, then let's unite and hold Postie's feet to the fire. Cowboy up, Marble, let's go!)

Because I originally was voting GE, after a back and forth, I unvoted them. I'm also waiting for fresh blood/meat to get in here to sort some of those damn null spots I have in my reads. Marathon, CES.

Even in a marathon standing still is not very helpful. Pressuring people is pro-town, so why aren't you doing it? Why don't you make like your new avatar and go face?

Face may be the place, but I want to hit the mark.
664 Marble: Boom!! There you go. That's the Marble I've been looking for.

I'm going to hard no sir a postie lynch today.

14:1, odds aren't in your favor mate if people want to gun for Postie, sir. Hate to be the realist in the room.

Yes, currently we have 11/15 players (including yourself!) not voting for someone useful. It's about that time of the day where you should start lobbying for your preferred kill and not just sitting back vote parking someone while doing nothing to advance the game. If you think I should be voting llamarble, sauce, convince me. Although, I would prefer you pick someone else because I am pretty firmly convinced he's town.

I want to lynch in {tchill, LQ} today. There are some number of people I'd be willing to switch to at DL.

Under no circumstances am I voting for {sauce, postie, Llamarble, lycanfire}

And that deadline list is....? Like, I get Sauce slot, Marble, and Lycanfire as NOPE! Not touching that. Tchill and LQ, I understand.

@GE the way he paraded her and judging by the fact that she wrote guides I expect mastina to be a good scumhunter, which means Eddie will be a good scumhunter if he's scum with her on his side.

I have thoughts on this, I want Eddie to have a chance to respond first

Right now, Mastina isn't at the top of her game TBH. Finally came back and dropped a few posts explaining what she's been going thru. She needs time to do some self-care, which is completely understandable imo. Bout the best I can do to explain her situation without breaking the site/game rules.

I still don't know what to make of Eddie saying Tchill "REEKS" of scum but showing no interest in pursuing that avenue.
I bet he'll randomly show up and hammer and cement himself as the D2 lynch or something.

Anyone interested in a last-minute actually good wagon on GE for that gross case in #702?

Unvote, vote: Gamma Emerald

It was pretty dubious, wasn't it. Definitely made me doubt my townread on him and remove him from the upper tier townies.
I'm not as ready to welcome Davsto to the towny pile as TSQ, I think he would be about as good a competing wagon as GE.
Also I think really I was intending to discourage Eddie from just randomly hammering, as if he's town and does that, that sends town down a bad path.
If he's scum I doubt he'll get far anyway.

You don't have to discourage me, mate. I'm not stupid in the fact that hammering could EASILY send the town down a bad path. So, I'm gonna avoid doing something that stupid like the plague.

I am concerned that no one is defending Chill. It gives me a bad feeling.

You're a "someone". Defend him if you have a bad feeling.

I have a readlist but I'd rather not share it for now because if I get nightkilled I don't want there to be ambiguity about why it happened. I don't want to give Eddie an out.
Alternatively, I'd be happy to share my reads once I've placed all my nulls because then I can die having done my job. Not that I'm saying my reads are likely to be super duper amazingly accurate or anything, but dying before having made a guess for the scumteam I can be happy with just sucks.

You're scared of 1 player "having an out," so you don't want to post a reads list? -sigh- Where is it.....

Piss poor reasoning for not giving a reads list bar your null placement argument. Come on, Postie! If you're gonna call ME scum for "fluffy IIoA" bullocks, at least bring a bigger gun to the table to fight with. Cause right now, it looks as if you have a squirt gun.

I have a readlist but I'd rather not share it for now because if I get nightkilled I don't want there to be ambiguity about why it happened.

this is at minimum very anti-town.

???

I want to be alive to push EddieFenix, becaue no one else is doing it. If I'm dead I at least want it to incriminate EddieFenix.

NO no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no NO. You LITERALLY want to be alive to push one player and if soley YOU are dead/die, you want to go to your grave and try and DRAG another player down with you?! This has GOT to be one of THE most anti-town posts I've seen this game. You need smacked with that logic stick 1000x over for even remotely THINKING that's a pro-town move.

My goal is to get EddieFenix lynched. If I give a readslist with other scumleans people can then argue that they were the reason I was killed. This obstructs my goal of getting EddieFenix lynched.

The issue YOU have, is convincing people of YOUR argument as to WHY I am scum because most people can take a look and toss it. And at this point, if you feel so strongly about that read of yours, come at me. Bring the full salvo of whatever pissy pants shenanigans you can bring. I'll gladly go to WAR/wall of words with you and bring my logic stick along with me.

in order for your logic to work from our pov
a) you have to be town
b) eddie has to be scum
c) people have to think you're such a gigantic threat to them that they nk you because of it.
d) one of your other scum leans has to be scummy enough in other ways that people push on them simply because you died.
e) that person has to be not scum.

do you see why I'm having trouble with this?

a) isn't a problem if I'm killed, and if I'm not then I can push EddieFenix's lynch, which is my goal. b) is very likely true. c) is what I'm trying to avoid, because it stops me fulfilling my goal. d) and e) can both easily happen, but don't have to, because someone can use a scumlean that is actually scum to defend EddieFenix by saying my death doesn't make him scum while also not pushing for that person to be lynched.

Glad I got my stick.......
A.) is a problem because IF you are town, you dying withholding your reads could send the town down a bad path that needs to be avoided like Marble pointed in my direction for when it came to tchill. (logic stick smack 1002)
B.) "Is very likely true".... Bring it. Bloody bring whatever salvo you have to the table at this point. I will grab this bull by the fucking horns and slam it to the dirt for how piss poor it is.
C.) HOW are you a THREAT?! If I'm apart of the scum team, there are WAY, WAY more threatening players in this game list I'd want dead because they're intelligent players before I'd remotely even blink in your direction. That's "scum elimination of strong threatening players 101".
D & E.) Logic and process of elimination LITERALLY get rid of that because scum tend to distance themselves in-game and co-ordinate how they're gonna do that in their daytalk PT. This isn't that hard to figure out (logic stick smack 1003).

Eddie is classically scummy. He was also classically scummy in the last game I played with him, where Chesskid vigged him and he flipped scum. He was also my buddy, actually, after my alignment changed after D1 (bonus: you can see how much more awesome I am before I become scum - half of my ISO is from the 2 days between when I replace in and when my alignment changes). AD was in that game, along with Chesskid. They think he's different here; I'm not sure I see it. It was TBD mafia by the way.

And even THEN, I was still being town read by people. Chesskid SHOT me off my damn perch because I couldn't get to his callouts in that game, AND I blindsided my closest friend (team captain) who KNOWS my townie/scum game for that matter and even admitted that I snowballed him in the dead PT. I'd have probably had a dog in that fight had it not been for the recent life change at that time that are still on-going. Above all else, Marble, WE co-ordinated in that game, so you LITERALLY know my mindset when it comes to playing as scum. Here's me attempting to reach out to YOU at this point, mate. Take the time to sit back, reflect on that game a little bit, and we'll meet in the middle somehow.

I went and found an Eddie town game.

Holy shit he needs rope right the fuck now

The game where my team captain got me lynched and IMMEDIATELY regretted doing so because he knows how I play and was SUPER, DUPER paranoid for no good reason, lead the town terribly bar 1 lynch, and the town lost the game completely? The game where I practically NAILED the scum team in one of my posts before dying. The game BEFORE a life changing moment for me (logic stick smack 1004-06).

isn't postie doing the same thing?

Llamarble already linked a scum game.

What are you guys seeing, can you point it out

I compared this to that, I feel like he's a bit more muted than that game but his play seems to be coming off similar in tone

You'll notice that in the town game he's quick to start asking questions, giving reads, and actively trying to sort the people he's unsure on. There's actual, obvious game-solving happening, unlike here and in the scum game Llamarble linked where his ISO is full of fluff and the odd token question that he doesn't pursue or use to reach a conclusion. Idk how to explain this further without doing a post by post analysis. Which I might do.

PLEASE PbPA. I love walls, just ask Gamma in my response to their GIANT. SPOILER.