Open 713: Jungle Republic [Game Over]

[Almost50]

I'm calling your entire manner 'fake' because it feels like you're overly concerned with getting across the idea about how *surprised* you were that you rolled town. Like you're going through the motions because you think it's something you have to say as opposed to something you believe. IE I'm basically saying you don't believe it cuz you know you're not in fact town.

OK. Cool. Let's find out. *Sigh*

[Almost50]

Btw, when I flip green, would you buy that I really did believe I was genuine and not faking? Or would you still think I was faking the shock??

[Espeonage]

Quick post from me before I go back to homework:
Esp, can you please not make like 50 short posts one after another please? Thanks.

I also feel like Almost's frustration is genuine. I still am town-reading that slot.

Ok, back to homework.

I will make sure to only post a maximum of 49 times in a row.

[Espeonage]

I don't scumread Dr Fanta, I only dislike them in relational to their random unvote which I really only see as coming from either town or a buddy of BuJ.

You find nothing else they've done scummy?

Not as much as other people. Nothing jumped out at me, but with an increasing sample size of posts it's liable to change. They are not on my would lynch list.

The replaceout is NAI.

Replacing out is NAI - but the manner you replace out in can be alignment indicative.

I guess. I don't rate anyone's ability to read it reliably though, and definitely not at a level of certainty that outweighs all the scumminess in the slot.

skitter makes more sense than you do in your argument outside of the first handful of pages. I think your premise for her being scum is flawed and I don't see scum motivation to her actions, in fact I see a lot of protown coming out of her. You can argue fabrication, but it seems genuine to me.

I think I have objectively shown fabrication - why do you disagree that I haven't?
If I haven't shown fabrication I've at least shown that Skitter doesn't connect past actions to current reads - yeah? That's the reality of what has to be happening if she's town, yeah? if not - why not?

The scum motivation is lynching someone who she knows can spot her scum game.

What do you think is flawed n my premise?

I quoted it, but you basically called her out for being wrong, which is not a scum trait. Everything that followed that was entirely semantics of what constitutes scum, and I don't see any mentality behind her posts that isn't town minded.

If I'm perfectly honest, anything that is scummy from the perspective of trying to appear to be scumhunting but not, is likely a playstyle thing. Scum actually need to find scum. Which is why I find A50 and BuJ's play particularly damning.

Lets say skitter fabricated a read. What about that makes it indicative of scum in a multiball game?

Scum actually get to play as town while progressing their win condition, this style of read will not fly in this game because it simply is based on a different style of game and setup.

Like sure skitter could be scum, but nothing i have seem makes that particularly likely, when key traits I am looking for in this game from scum are completely absent.

[Korina]

And what keytraits would that be?

[Espeonage]

It comes down to mentality.

Scum still don't want to be in the limelight, and they definitely still need to avoid death. Mafia also need to not appear too town dependent on who wolves go after. So people who are preoccupied with appearance would strike me as likely scum, as well as people trying to avoid scrutiny and avoid being in the center of attention, especially if they are a weaker player who are unsure of their ability to argue out of a pinch.

Later on we will have relationals. Day 1 of multiball is always going to be a narrow selection of applicable actions for scum as scum have an easier time of appearing town.

[Thor665]

I quoted it, but you basically called her out for being wrong, which is not a scum trait. Everything that followed that was entirely semantics of what constitutes scum, and I don't see any mentality behind her posts that isn't town minded.

I agree I called her out for being wrong.
I also called out Paradox for being wrong.
I'm only calling one of them scum i want to lynch.

Lets say skitter fabricated a read. What about that makes it indicative of scum in a multiball game?

Scum actually get to play as town while progressing their win condition, this style of read will not fly in this game because it simply is based on a different style of game and setup.

That's an interesting concept and I don't see any immediate holes in it other than the obvious one;
Try to describe how she's town and fabricating a read.
Or explain how I'm wrong about the fabrication.

Because the read is literally bonkers with the info she has about me, and she can't describe it and is coming really close to objective lies in trying to claim she has, so...?

[Thor665]

Also, frankly, the slow support building on me while other wagons have frayed but with people basically starting to pull out 'policy' as their shield for voting me says the wagon is the only one both scumteams are getting behind, so we know there is scum in that adventure from both teams already.

[Espeonage]

The simple answer is that fabrication of reads and being town are not mutually exclusive.

Town can posture for the purposes of building sway and momentum. Town still need to manipulate people.

I'm entering the realm of hard defending someone other than myself. But the takeaway is that I don't see skitter as scum at the moment.

[Espeonage]

There's every chance I am wrong and my reads are off in places. But I am not getting behind your reasoning at the moment.

The game will open up considerably with flips, especially if there is a scum flip today or tonight. I want to see mentality reads, because that is all I can trust day 1 in a known multiball.

[mutantdevle]

Votecount 1.8

(4)

Thor665 - voted by: skitter30, Korina, Not_Mafia, Montosh.

(2)

Dr Fanta - voted by: wilky, Beefster.

(2)

skitter30 - voted by: Thor665, Almost50.

(2)

Almost50 - voted by: Espeonage, TheGoldenParadox.

(1)

wilky - voted by: Dr Fanta.

(1)

TheGoldenParadox - voted by: LaserGuy.

With 12 players alive, 7 votes are needed for a majority. Only 6 votes are needed for a no lynch.

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2018-03-01 17:30:00)

[Not_Mafia]

VOTE: Wilky

[Thor665]

The simple answer is that fabrication of reads and being town are not mutually exclusive.

Town can posture for the purposes of building sway and momentum. Town still need to manipulate people.

I'm entering the realm of hard defending someone other than myself. But the takeaway is that I don't see skitter as scum at the moment.

That literally pains my head as a concept to try to wrap around.
You're literally using as your defense of her play - basically agreement that she's playing like scum.
I don't know how I'm supposed to react to that, frankly.

[Thor665]

Also, I'm trying to figure out if N_M hoping off me to Wilky is town (the argument against is that he's not actually suggesting why others should move)
Or scum scared of being called out (the argument against is doing it so blatantly after I call out the wagon is...blatant).

[Not_Mafia]

I decided to lynch scum instead

[Espeonage]

Thor. I pretended to townread the worst when I was going to shoot him in the oft talked about game previously linked. I was ready to lynch literally anyone provides it meant I wouldn't be identified as a big to scum.

That was fabrication of reads as town. I have quite literally done this. As town. To advance a town win con.

I will not speak for skitters motives but this line of argument will not convince me.

[Thor665]

@N_M - does that mean you don't scumread me now, didn't ever scumread me, that Wilky became more scummy, or what?

@Espeo - I hear you talking, but their is a *giant* difference between a Vig and how they present reads and a Seer or a VT and how they should present reads and you are well aware that's a rather select and specifically minor exception that not even most people agree on even then. None of that applies to what she's doing here though - so why are you acting like it does?

[Not_Mafia]

I didn’t ever scumread you

[LaserGuy]

VOTE: Dr Fanta

Two days left. We need to start consolidating our votes.

[wilky]

Well, I mean that's just one isolated part of the whole scum read on that slot.
If you agreed with him in the debate what made his vote on NM more substantial and less scummy than espe's one?

You talking about the 'whole case' still fails to describe how

I actually was not overly impressed by either his nor Espe's votes, but I wouldn't go so far as to claim either looked particularly townish or scummish. That said, I can understand the basic concept of someone voting 'X' to disagree with someone elses' reasons for voting 'X' and them not needing to be connected to their own reason for their own vote - that makes perfect conceptual sense and I fail to grasp why you're acting like it doesn't.

No, I actually do agree that two people can vote for the same person yet disagree on the others reasoning but Buj was disagreeing with reasoning that was very similar to his own.

I'll probably interact quite a bit once Thor is gone, he just saps the energy out of games

So, until then you're just going to sit about doing fuck all? Why not just ignore him.

Blatant misrep? You were townreading skitter but due to a readslist that you didn't agree with created a whole pre-flip scum team. Show me where the misrep is.

Guys.. is wilky actually this daft or is does he just play dumb when he's scum?

-Pepper

OK, so where am I being daft?

Quick post from me before I go back to homework:
Esp, can you please not make like 50 short posts one after another please? Thanks.

I also feel like Almost's frustration is genuine. I still am town-reading that slot.

Ok, back to homework.

You can't spend a whole game day just basically prod dodging, have a mini meltdown then tell someone else how they should be playing the game...

Mate, I would be hard SRing you now if I didn't see your play in that game first hand. You REALLY need to stop tunneling and start reading and evaluating stuff. Like, if you're scum here you're a likely NK (if you're Mafia), likely investigation target (if you're a WW), and if you're Town you're a detriment to Town regardless because you're likely to BOTH draw the NK AND the investigation, let alone the (mis)lynch if you're still alive in 2 days.

How does this make sense? If he is Mafia, why would Werewolf kill him if his slot looks scummy?

I also want to know the answer to this

a) why would I do that? b) how is that like relevant to anything?

Because THEN I'd understand and can relate. And it's not an insult at all. I

am

almost 50 y.o., so I actually am an old fart (and a bald one too). I am occasionally mean in the sense that I lose my temper and become overly sarcastic at times. I probably smell too cuz I'm a heavy smoker.

Now any (or all) of these make sense and I can understand being called, but I can neither understand nor respond to "feels fake and void" or "your vote sucks" (especially coming from the target of my vote). Was I expected to send you some candy heart chocolate along with my vote? Was I supposed to be civil and ask for your permission to vote you? And am I supposed to introduce some sort of authentication certificate to prove what I say is genuine and not fake?

Anyway, I'm cool with you SRing me and me SRing you.

Maybe we'll draw the same alignment in the next game

we play together and we'll be getting along just fine. It's just the way the game is.

Am I looking into this too much or is the bolded part a slip? Seems to me like Almost already knows for sure that skitter doesn't have the same alignment as him.

[Not_Mafia]

VOTE: Dr Fanta

Two days left. We need to start consolidating our votes.

Why Fanta and not Wilky?

[LaserGuy]

I have a Town lean on wilky.

[skitter30]

and they definitely still need to avoid death

Yeah this basically. He felt kinda survivalistic, and I was getting those vibes specifically from this:

People need to post now. I refuse to be lynched just because half the players waited until the last day and there wasn't any time to change the wagon.

--------

Spoiler: @Thor

I kinda fundamentally disagree with the premise that I fabricated anything. I might be *wrong*, but I don't think that I made anything up.

Because the read is literally bonkers with the info she has about me, and she can't describe it and is coming really close to objective lies in trying to claim she has, so...?

I stopped responding to you because you were kinda frustrating me (I still think on purpose) and I felt if I continued I'd probably say something I'd regret, so I decided to take a break.

I think this game differs from that one in a broader sense (ie as opposed to comparing your entrance here and your entrance there - I didn't answer the former because I decided to stop responding to you, but I do believe I answered the latter).

There, you correctly caught me, and were persistent about getting votes on me and trying to get me lynched, but even as you did that, you were consistently sorting other people and expressing a broader view of the gamestate.

Like day1 you were saying me or MariaR could be scum. Day2 it was me or misere. The whole time you were trying to figure out Mulch, and you were also looking for who might be defending me and like trying to find partners.

Like your game pivoted on me but it wasn't *only* about me. Like you used scum!me as a foundation to sort other people and to look at the gamestate in an exhaustive sense. If I responded to you, you responded to me, and when I didn't respond to you, you just like proclaimed me scummy and moved on to something or someone else. Like the best way I can describe it is that although you strongly believed in scum!me, that wasn't the *only* thing you focused on. You didn't like need to prolong and perpetuate an argument with me.

Here, like you're focusing on me, and like ... that's all you've done. Offhand I can't think of any other significant positions you've taken beyond 'bujaber's replace-out was town' (I strongly disagree with this btw). You've asked a lot of questions and gotten into a lot of conflicts, but very little of it has led to any hard conclusions beyond the obvious. Like I feel like your whole game is about me and it's just so ... narrow? And like when I stop responding to you, you don't just move on, but are dragging other people into the argument. I feel like you're focusing on me and picking arguments to the point that I don't know what else you're thinking.

There is also a large pool of 'happy to lynch' that would include the people not actually participating, like Fanta, N_M, and Espe, but that both begins and ends my ability to describe why they're scum.

After that it's going to be more about flips, because there are too many soft town reads that are clearly wrong.

Like these are your other scumreads and it's just so ... shallow?

Like from this it seems like an accurate representation of your reads are:

-> scum - me because {long argument}

-> happy to lynch because not participating - {nm/fanta/esp} - (imo this is also low-hanging-fruit-y)

-> soft townreads that will need to be evaluated because of flips- everyone else

(Aside - if you flip someone in the middle category, how would their flip help you sort the last category even? If they're not participating you're not getting much info out of their flip anyways. And if you flip me .... like what does that imply for anyone else from your POV? Like the bolded sounds nice but I don't really see you developing the idea much.)

Like there's just very little nuance or trajectory or like clear, definitive stances on like anyone besides for me (and inexplicably town!bujaber). Like you have a lot of posts and a lot of words but very few useful conclusions.

I'm also finding it kinda mind-boggling that you think this game remotely parallels my scumgame. I'm like leagues out of scumrange here, and I feel like you ought to know that.

-------

VOTE: Dr Fanta

Two days left. We need to start consolidating our votes.

I'm going to be switching to A50 before deadline.

Actually since it's less than two days till deadline:

VOTE: A50

Strongly believe Thor is scum but I don't think it's happening today at this point.

-------

Am I looking into this too much or is the bolded part a slip? Seems to me like Almost already knows for sure that skitter doesn't have the same alignment as him.

I was thinking the same thing but there's an obvious rebuttal to that so I didn't see much utility in pointing it out.

[Almost50]

Am I looking into this too much or is the bolded part a slip? Seems to me like Almost already knows for sure that skitter doesn't have the same alignment as him.

I don't know about you, but I assume someone I'm SCUMREADING isn't the same alignment of me. If I thought they were I wouldn't be STing them, would I??

[Thor665]

No, I actually do agree that two people can vote for the same person yet disagree on the others reasoning but Buj was disagreeing with reasoning that was very similar to his own.

You're overstating the distance that read went to start calling it hypocrisy.

Like day1 you were saying me or MariaR could be scum. Day2 it was me or misere. The whole time you were trying to figure out Mulch, and you were also looking for who might be defending me and like trying to find partners.

Something I'm, incidentally, doing here within the limiting context provided by multiball - and also something that is utterly a new stance from you on the differences, since up till now the claim was I am overly aggressive and overly forcing choices.

Offhand I can't think of any other significant positions you've taken beyond 'bujaber's replace-out was town' (I strongly disagree with this btw).

Yeah, as long as you ignore my clear opinions on Laser and BuJaber. Ignore the pretty heavily implied position on Espeo (and at least that there's aggressive scumhunting there) and ignore the pretty clear statement on Fanta.

Yeah, my reads are really hard to spot as long as you ignore those.

You then note my "low hanging fruit/handwave lurker value call" without actually addressing that it's objectively true. Anyone claiming really clear or strong reads in that batch, is stretching. I'm calling Fanta and I feel like I'm stretching for that one because he's clearly ducking engagement and issuing threats - but at least that's *something* to call him on. Look at my last exchange with N_M and tell me my read should be anything other than 'willing to lynch' with a straight face.

(Aside - if you flip someone in the middle category, how would their flip help you sort the last category even? If they're not participating you're not getting much info out of their flip anyways. And if you flip me .... like what does that imply for anyone else from your POV? Like the bolded sounds nice but I don't really see you developing the idea much.)

Show me a theoretical wagon composition with the flip and the NK and I'll explain how VCA and NK analysis work.
Or go read a newbie game with me as an IC.

I'm also finding it kinda mind-boggling that you think this game remotely parallels my scumgame. I'm like leagues out of scumrange here, and I feel like you ought to know that.[/spoiler]
I'm not claiming you have an unchangable meta nor that I understand it - that's your stance on me.
One you have ducked backing up, and now one where you're changing direction on again, to now me being overly focused on you is a scumtell somehow.