Open 714: Tit for Tat [Game Over]

[Mathdino]

Right okay so let's set some ground rules:

1.

JaydragonKing does NOT live to LyLo. Under any circumstances.

If I were a player in my own Open 711 that slot would've been lynched. That said, he's a terrible D1 lynch for reasons I'm not going to go into.

2. NSG and Creature will be sorted by the end of the day, I guarantee it.

3. You are not allowed to scumread mutantdevle and GoldenParadox for standard scumtells. I've seen them both mislynched when they were towntelling left and fucking right. If anyone has any firsthand scum meta of them, go ahead and share.

4. If A50 gets NK'd, don't ignore his reads.

Glad to be in a playerlist I actually universally know. Hats off to Luca, jmo, and Pintu, who I only know from reading games. And good to see the rest of you again. Especially Aneninen, who I can now finally give shit to 4 years later for vigging me after I got cop cleared

VOTE: northsidegal

Probably scum.

P.S. I forgot what the fuck role I am since it's been 4 goddamn days, and at some point today I'm going to go check my role PM and breadcrumb it.

[Mathdino]

Actually, changed my mind, I'm gonna check my role PM on nightfall.

I won't give you townpoints but I WILL dole out mad respect for sheeping this NSG wagon

[Mathdino]

incidentally i also forgot this setup so i'm checking that now

and no, i did not forget my alignment, i wouldn't be able to forget a scumteam

mutant plsss stop gambiting and get targeted reactions instead of "OMG HE SELF VOTED WHAT DO WE DO" reactions

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Aneninen

bad vote

[Mathdino]

Did self-voting gambits become really cool in the past year or something? I've never seen them actually benefit in getting reads on people.

Anyway Gamma's town, jmo feels town, wagoning Creature is still a shit idea, I'm working on coming up with Jay's tells (you'd think after seeing him live 4 or 5 times I'd start to figure something out) but I still don't recommend D1 Jay lynch for ~~reasons~~.

@mutant: The point of RVS is to get the ball rolling and start getting reads out of people.
Caaaan I interest you in a NSG or Aneninen mini-wagon so your vote isn't doing nothing?

[Mathdino]

Setup has a vig, so that's cool. I have a working theory on how to best use it (especially given that we're in evens) but it's gonna require activity and not running things right up to the deadline.

Luckily games with playerlists that all know each other are mad townsided so we should probably be able to lock a lynch much sooner than that.

Don't really see any good strategies other than secret vig plan (I'm interested in discussing this later in the day with mutant actually).

VOTE: Aneninen

[Mathdino]

Secretly Dino wants to hang me day 1 but I'm too entertaining to get rid of immediately so he's saving his case for day 2.

Actually yeah I'll make that my 3rd reason.

Any reason you're pushing for a wagon on me, math?

I always have reasons in RVS
(like unironically tho)

Edit: I think more than enough players here know each other even just from the Open Queue to do pretty well.

[Mathdino]

Fair enough. I think there are a lot of ways to use RVS. I'd actually hope we're out of totally-random-VS already (and might be a little peeved at people coming in on page 3 and random voting).

Not voting someone because they're good at the game is silly
Basically, the earlier I can sort NSG, the more comfortable I'll feel about the gamestate. Probably the greatest balance between "player I can respect" and "player I won't get paranoid of".
Aneninen's Creature vote was no bueno bueno imo but we'll get to that.

You like setup spec and probabilities and shit. I respect that. I don't expect you to know my secret vig plan because I just came up with it about an hour ago.

Edit: Does anyone have scum meta of mutant? That would help here. I have a hunch on how he would behave as scum.
And lol @ crappy behaviour; he was insanely obvtown in Switch but A50 being scum and not being available to accurately read him completely fucked his towncred.

[Mathdino]

I mean that secret stuff is aside from obvious shit, like "if anyone fakeclaims vig, just shoot them instead of counterclaiming". I have other plans to deal with fakeclaimers but we'll get to that when we run up scum.

And also "don't fakeclaim just to not get lynched".

Oh and also "if you're a PR who's literally about to get lynched within 30 minutes, don't self-hammer".

._.

[Mathdino]

1. How would I know what?
I more broadly mean that I expect scum to claim a power role so as to dodge the lynch. So we'll deal with the claim situation when it comes.

2. I already did, see my edit above. I think Aneninen is the only player that I personally remember that idk if anyone else does, but it'd be pretty unlikely he literally knows no one else in this list.

[Mathdino]

As someone who was scum in jester nightless, it's not GOOD scum meta, but it'll do. I think I can sort of see some differences. Problem is scum is required to 3p-hunt in jester nightless to not insta-lose on each lynch.

And as much fun as it'd be to be scum with NSG, the point is that I think a wagon on her will make it easier to sort her, while a wagon on someone like A50 would basically get useless reactions.

[Mathdino]

This has been underwhelming.

@Gamma: I responded to some things you wanted to talk about in 41. Did you... care?

@jmo: I think Jay's vote makes perfect sense from Jay's perspective. I think you're getting caught up in semantics.
Like, if Jay's scum, it's not because of this. If Jay is scum, it's because Jay can almost perfectly replicate his towngame.

More people need to be voting.

Specifically, if you're
1. Still on a random vote
2. Not voting anyone

I would like to know why you're not helping me wagon NSG or Aneninen.

You want more to happen, help me move the game forward.

[Mathdino]

Luca can be scum, yeah.

Jay, your speculation on what scum would do is bad (and I suspect scum you knows that), but if i responded I'd be handfeeding scum strategy so w/e

I'd rather not talk strategy with you after Stack The Deck, no offence. Not gonna give you lazy townreads for just yes manning my setup spec, lol. Maybe later in the day?

In the meantime, if you wanna help me get information, why are you not helping me wagon people?

[Mathdino]

Why do you think both mafia and vig targeted him, Jay?

[Mathdino]

Do you think that makes him lynchbait in this game?

[Mathdino]

We're talking about mutantdevle. No one else comment on this convo, thanks.

[Mathdino]

Can I ask you what you would do/talk about in the scum PT in the situation that you rolled scum with mutant, knowing he got vigged last game?

[Mathdino]

No I'm asking Jay, sorry. Take your time, just know there's a wagon on you lol

[Mathdino]

Jay, do you think mutant is going to be coached by his team through the day? Like, suppose he's scum with A50 and/or NSG, who remember last game. What do you think they'd be telling him right about now in scumchat?

[Mathdino]

Oh I wasn't actually trying to read mutant there.

So at what point did you realise that the worst was actually the guy that got mafiakilled, vigged, and bodyguarded, while mutant was the D1 mislynch?

[Mathdino]

Further question: Have you ever read fferyllt's newbie game, where I rolled town with the worst and Impede?

[Mathdino]

HOT TAKE: NSG is locktown. Good to know, moving on then.

Jay isn't scum with mutant. Nice to know I guess.

[Mathdino]

I'm gonna wait for A50 to decide whether Jay would be capable of faking that townslip.

I trust NSG on this I think.
VOTE: jmo

[Mathdino]

Hey NSG, can I get basic reads on:
Jay
Mathdino
Creats
mutant

[Mathdino]

As for the game, I only have a townread on Mathdino for now. I think his question about mafia having daytalk was genuine.

What the fuck? That was fake, lol, of course I checked to see if mafia had daytalk before asking other players about what scum would daytalk about

I asked Jay about that newbie game because I forced a mislynchable player to townslip by asking them what mafia would be daytalking about in a setup without daytalk (at the time). I was hoping Jay would fall for the same trick here. He didn't, so all I have is that he's not scum with mutant.

I find it absolutely hilarious that one of the few insincere things in my ISO is the thing you're townreading me for

[Mathdino]

Based on what, exactly?

Based on an unfounded gutping from your first post.

[Mathdino]

guys if you keep quote pyramiding i'm policy lynching both of you

[Mathdino]

didn't care about it at the time (tbh i skimmed over it), was doing something else, busy sorting the players i actually know

when jmo made the vote i looked back and thought to myself "yeah, luca vote makes sense based on that post, i'd be good with that"

working through sorting people basically

cmon ask me more interesting questions

[Mathdino]

jmo, i've done cold meta on jay multiple times and multiple times have come off wrong

i think your cold meta time is probably better spent on other players since around 2/3 of this playerlist has gotten snowed by scum-Jay already

For anyone confused about the past games thing:

Jay-scum played a game I modded, against A50, NSG, and mutant, along with this guy named the worst. mutant got D1 mislynched, and the worst got mafia'd, vigged, and bodyguarded all on the same night.

Jay repeatedly mixed up mutant with the worst, arguing that mutant was a standout enough player to get the mafia AND town's attention, along with saying mutant is mislynchbait (which is true).

Because pregame lasted 4 goddamn days, we can reasonably assume Jay doesn't literally think mutant is the worst at this point, and that slip was genuine. They're not scum together.

The entirety of that conversation was me trying to pull that out of him. The rest is basically useless IMO.

[Mathdino]

Luca do me a favour and stop interrogating jmo for now, talk about something else

Do you give a shit that I responded to you above lol

[Mathdino]

@Luca: Like dude both of the people you're aggressively interrogating (and that your whole ISO is directed to) are the only 2 people who suspected you

[Mathdino]

Then how do you expect to get out of RVS
Gimme a break, this is how the game goes
Talk about your reads on others

[Mathdino]

My point is you've interacted with a total of 2 players, all resulting from both of them harping on you for your rvs post

More succinctly, my point is to get over it and expand your view of the game

[Mathdino]

This feels like "you caught me for the wrong reasons", not gonna lie

[Mathdino]

ignoring meta (lazy), there's almost definitely some number of scum in {Luca, jmo}

luca can be scum yeah

[Mathdino]

i'd rather not talk about the jmo thing right now (i'm waiting for a certain thing to happen), and i think my posts regarding you should pretty easily indicate why i'm scumreading you

still not gonna talk to me about anything other than literally me suspecting you?

[Mathdino]

i don't really care about your RVS post anymore, that was a trademark shitty early mathdino read

i believe your lines of questioning toward me and jmo are predatory in nature

[Mathdino]

yeah sure

now to show everyone the power of the lolcase

Spoiler: a lolcase on luca

This post is meh. You're acting like this is a great advantavge for town so we can "hold people to their word" but in reality, you can iso someone and it would literally be more informative.

'

Meh

'? Are you actually trying to read his alignment based on a post praising the mod for putting links in the vote count?

people try to read each other based on RVS posting all the time; luca is in no way newbie enough to not realise this
harping on other people for generating content is outright detrimental

I skimmed the thread and you stood out as someone just making comments that are actually pretty useless like the one I quoted above.

The fact you want to get me to L-1 not only based on nothing but when I wasn't even active at the time makes matters worse. You also drop that wagon at the first opportunity, which brings into question your motivation for doing it in the first place.

literally untrue, jmo was making comments/early reads that were fine, but some of the comments point to luca so

also this is pure AtE
"woe is me, you want this poor player to be at l-1 based on nothing"
what's wrong with the motivation
how is dropping the RVS wagon alignment indicative
notably, luca didn't point out the fact that i and a few others completely dropped their RVS wagons that they said they supported (i'm no longer voting NSG/aneninen)
he's just harping on jmo in particular, heaping on things

Well at least I'm trying to start up a conversation here about topics that are game related.

And for the question about Mutant, I do the same exact thing as scum that I did once as town. I have no doubt in my mind he would do the same.

Right, you voting him has no basis then.

You look like you're trying to play the same way you did last game as town, so that means you've got to be scum... what?

Since when did votes need a solid basis? Your vote on me had literally none, and yet you wanted to get me to L-1.

What is the basis behind your Creature vote?

bad take
overemphasises the hardness of RVS wagons to paint himself as the victim
jay clearly came up with reasoning for his mutant vote, and jmo was pointing out that the reasoning was flawed
plus this doesn't actually even address jmo's comment (which, admittedly, was bad)
it's just harping on jmo for being hypocritical instead of engaging in the discussion

it's standard "gotcha" scumhunting

@Math

: I find it extraordinary how you could get any sort of ping from this post:

VOTE: Jay

His record ends now.

As RVS posts go, that is pretty standard.

Why did you not mention this ping at the time, instead of vaguely agreeing that I '

can be scum

' when jmo voted me? Why bother making such a remark only to change the topic entirely in your very next sentence?

Jay tried to have reasoning behind his. I didn't think it was legit. I stated this.

His reasoning is no different than that of '

gut

' - there is no real evidence what he thinks is true, he just feels it's the case.

Is there any particular reason you didn't want to get Mutant to L-1?

1. self defence by way of "hey my RVS post was standard!", apparent disbelief in the value of early gutreads

2. instead of actually asking where i got my read from (which is what you would ask if, you know, trying to sort me), he asks leading questions trying to highlight some perceived inconsistency
"WHY ARE YOU A HYPOCRITE"
"Well I mean I'm really no-"
"OKAY WHY ARE YOU NOW BEING INCONSISTENT"
"Well I think your lines of questioning are a little predato-"
"NO YOU'RE BEING PREDATORY, I'M TRYING TO CREATE INFORMATION"
^Luca in a nutshell

Presumably you didn't want to get Mutant to L-1 like you did with me and Creature, or else you would have voted him instead of disagreeing with Jay. I was wondering why you didn't choose to join the wagon of an active player, rather than start a wagon on an absentee.

Why mention you're looking at my scum games? Do you do that every time you take a metadive?

how is this actually going to ever help determine jmo's alignment
like what kinds of responses are you even looking for here

and again with the victimisation, calling himself an absentee as if that matters

@Luca: Like dude both of the people you're aggressively interrogating (and that your whole ISO is directed to) are the only 2 people who suspected you

What is your point exactly?

I'm not aggressively interrogating you; I'm just pointing out your dubious scumread based on my RVS post.

i mean i think my point is pretty obvious here
like that post IS the point
and so i don't see the point of asking this question

Then how do you expect to get out of RVS
Gimme a break, this is how the game goes
Talk about your reads on others

What are you talking about? RVS was long gone by the time jmo voted me and you agreed that I '

can be scum

'.

Your comment was terrible. Face it.

ah yep and now back to deflecting on me
ignoring the point tho
RVS is used to get early reads on people
jmo had an early read based on your RVS post
so did i
what about that is not okay
and how does you being absent actually make a difference

tl;dr
predatory as shit
constantly brings up the point that jmo tried to wagon a poor inactive player
harps on people for bringing content into the game, then claims these poor lines of questioning are in fact the true heroes of the game

probscum

[Mathdino]

If Luca played with me before I'd be townreading that

Lucascum underestimates the ease of lynching me

I'm good with this 1v1

[Mathdino]

see that's the thing here

your lines of questioning are basically designed to maneuver into a position of scumreading people

obviously you weren't going to like any reasons i had to scumread you

and you obviously werne't going to like any of jmo's answers to your questions

that's what makes it predatory
instead of wasting your time asking questions like that when you don't actually intend to work with them
you should be spending your time really sorting people

[Mathdino]

It was also about post 88. I've read NSG's scumgames, and she's nowhere near as awkward this game.

The initial posts were weird but those couple posts she made were pretty insightful and seemed like questions that could make people rethink things, which is what I expect from town-NSG more than anything.

Your posts basically lead you to scumread people and leave it at that. I can list about 10 questions in your ISO that there's really no good response to. In my experience, questions like that are either busywork or theatre, both from scum.

[Mathdino]

ok i guess we're doin this

VOTE: Luca

you wanna go after me in a playerlist with a proven track record of correctly reading me (minus jay and paradox who were bad that one time), be my guest

i'm not gonna continue this 1v1 unless you start doing the "every single post mathdino makes is proof he's scum" thing, let's leave it at this page and see what people think

there's always that one player...

[Mathdino]

okay so you're doing that thing anyway got it

look i'd really rather be doing other things, i was on a roll and had my own projects going on, etc etc

the comments about you were offhand, and yeah, i was scumreading you, but i also wanted to let things play out (and get your thoughts on other players) first

if you read it as reluctant, yes, that was intentional

if you have a problem with me not denying misrep/twisting... what would denying that actually do for you? people will read it and get the facts straight, and if i'm tunneling on town, i'm sure (well, hopeful) that someone will have a good towncase for you

now if you have a problem with me bringing other players into the mix
the judges aren't "biased", i've played against almost everyone the people i know in this game as scum, and one player here even modded my scumgame
i would be floored if the majority of those players ended up reading me incorrectly, regardless of my alignment

let the game happen
the longer you stay in this 1v1 the worse things get for you, and the less able i am to get to my other projects

[Mathdino]

the longer you stay in this 1v1 the worse things get for you

oh man this line is gonna completely set you off isn't it

preemptive "chilllll bro"

you've made your case, go find something else to do

i'm waiting on reads on other players

[Mathdino]

You said you were good with the 1v1 earlier; what changed?

It feels like you had no counter to my arguments so you just essentially gave up.

I don't get your vote on me - am I even your top scumread? I thought it would act as a prelude to a push against me, but you seem to be done with this now.

1. I didn't wanna be "that guy" who fills up an entire page with a 1v1 with someone I'm scumreading while keeping my vote on the guy I'm defending from my scumread.

2. I no longer

care

. You made your counterarguments. They just weren't good. You didn't outright lie or anything, so there's nothing really glaring to go over.

3. I mean yes? Like, it's page 7, I haven't really properly sorted other people. Kinda wanted to keep fucking around with wagons for a while instead of getting in this drawn out thing.
People can vote you if they scumread you. Given that you went from 0 to, let's say, 80, in 2 pages, I don't think a wagon on you is really going to add to my read on you, and I'd really rather you just talk about something else.

[Mathdino]

He is doing something that is a town tell of his, as well as something I think particularly tells me something that I'm not mentioning in thread.

I believe you're insinuating that I'm dropping power role tells, which can't be happening because I forgot my role. Like I THINK I'm a VT just because that's more likely but I have this niggling feeling that I'm actually a jailkeeper or a vig, so...

Anyway if you're implying there's a bunch of ideas I'm hiding, you're pretty much right on that, and I appreciate you not mentioning it

The "figure out if Jay knows who mutantdevle is" was just a precursor, my friend

[Mathdino]

Glad you're here, Aneninen.

Always appreciated your playstyle, but GOD do I hope you're not vig this time
I told that game as a legend to some 2017ers as a tale of what town PRs can do sometimes

I'll clarify a couple things.

His 17 was WTF, on the other hand. Since when can an RVS be bad?

I admittedly haven't looked over your meta. Did you vote blind?
And have you ever played with Creature before?

Mathdino's 26 contains too many reads considering it was only early-Page2. Either he was reaction testing or scum trying to take over the town. We'll see, I guess.

Not reaction testing! The only reads I see were Gamma-town and jmo-town, which, if I used just the first two pages as evidence, I stand by.
Feel free to... ask... why I had those reads. If you're so concerned.

Mutantdevle's 32 was terrible. Too concerned about his own joke and tiptoe-ing around a possible wagon on me? Mathdino, did you mean such things in your first post when you had talked about Mutantdevle? Or wait, in 35 you said:

"Edit: Does anyone have scum meta of mutant? That would help here. I have a hunch on how he would behave as scum."

So you know only his townplay?

Yes, he got mislynched in the game I modded, and mis-MyLo-lynched in another game we played together (I died N1). I personally thought he bled town both times. He has a scummy playstyle that I think I have a good track record of reading.
To answer the inevitable, nah, I don't have a read on him yet.

Regarding the vig plan, just decided to look at the setup and go over anything I noticed. I play in the open queue for that exact reason. I like setups.

Mathdino's 63. I still don't get why you wanted a wagon on NSG or me. Reaction tests on us or on the players jumping on?

I thought your vote was bad, or at least bad enough to wagon. NSG I wanted to quicksort.

Mathdino's 74:

"We're talking about mutantdevle. No one else comment on this convo, thanks."

I don't see how that kind of attitude helps town. (Side-note. If both him and Jaydragonking are scum, we'll have a hard time.) In general, Mathdino and Jaydragonking was posting a lot around that time... but with little useful content.

I agree none of that content was useful. Keep reading, you'll see why I did all of that.
Tbh with you I wasn't actually reading or parsing his posts at the time. Was looking for very particular reactions.

Nothing else in your post stands out as comment-worthy, so I'll wait for your catchup to realtimetalk.

[Mathdino]

Mathdino's 137 "Luca do me a favour and stop interrogating jmo for now, talk about something else" Why?

I don't think you're right in 158, Mathdino. Even if it took place years ago, as far as I can remember, Luca's scumplay was very different. I can't explain it why, but he was "under the radar" and he didn't stand out for me as someone picking up fights. However, if there's someone I didn't like about Luca here, it's his instant OMGUS-vote.
(Now, I'm skipping the rest of this fight. I may return to it later. But I don't think Luca's scum and I'm unsure about Mathdino. But I wouldn't lynch him on Day1. He's worth a lot as town and if he's scum we'll have ample time to figure that out later. I know this whole part in the brackets sounds lame. But I don't care shyt.)

1. I felt like it got to the point where Luca asking what I considered to be leading questions was leading to NAI answers from jmo, and clogging up the thread with relatively unreadable tunneling on Luca's part.
I wanted to get a read on Luca because I was picking up a scumread there, but first I wanted to get his thoughts on others.

2. Good to know, thanks. Do you know his townplay? Because if he's also inconsistent with his behaviour in towngames, we might not be able to read him on meta.

[Mathdino]

I trust that you voted blind then. I don't trust your alignment yet but I relinquish my page 1 scumread.

Creature is specifically a bad vote because he's incredibly easy to sort as the game goes on; basically everyone who's played 2 games with him is relatively aware of this. As scum, he gets lynched sooner or later. I see RVS wagons as a way to try and quicksort people with the flurry of initial activity, so I felt going for Creature was low utility.

After complaining about Creature being a bad vote (and making a clearly serious vote on you for it), I didn't feel like Gamma-scum or jmo-scum would blatantly go against that, given that I had literally just set myself up to be all town leadery. Hence, town.
I'm gonna wait for more shit to happen before I lock all my reads. I almost have reads on them but I'm not ready for presentation

Re: NSG: I don't wanna hard-defend her until she gets back and defends herself. But yeah, I'll be hard-defending her if it gets to that.

Re: Luca: That ping when I said "There's scum in {jmo, Luca}" boiled down to those 2 points, yes, with the additional gutread of predatory interrogation. "Gotcha" scumhunting, basically. Either anti-town or scum, in my experience. Then Luca asked me to explain that more, so I did the lolcase and found that every single post boiled down to one of those 3 things.

[Mathdino]

The reason you're getting the cock vibe from Jay is precisely because of his undefeated record as scum. That doesn't, however, encapsulate his town game.

The way I would better put it is "the longer Jay lives, the more likely scum is to win"

[Mathdino]

the cockY vibe from Jay

Autocorrect

[Mathdino]

Yes.

[Mathdino]

what a meme it is to have jay, aneninen, paradox, and almost50 all in the same game

jay lemme tell you about the time paradox claimed babysitter and unironically calmly self-hammered, thinking it was the town thing to do

Edit: I in no way advocate for townreading Jay, lol.

[Mathdino]

Math here, incidentally, is clearly hyper-aware of his meta and how others might perceive him, which means it should be disregarded altogether imo.

Okay so the random shading is getting to the point of literal lying.

So yeah that's uncool.

I'm aware of how other games have gone, and I remember the players who caught or didn't catch me as scum.

That doesn't mean I'm hyper-aware of my meta, and even if I were that aware, that doesn't make it useless by any means. A lot of fantastic players on this site are primarily catchable by meta, despite being super aware of their own meta. Meta is an underrated tool.
The main reason I've held the opinion that games where all the players know each other are great for town is because an open I was in got cancelled a while into the game and rerun. We got 3 scum in 3 days because everyone was able to read each other.

Point is, I think I could spot my own scumgame, and I do think I have scumtells (although I haven't pinpointed them, sadly), and that doesn't help me at all. There've been times where I sit back after scumposts and realise just how much I'm not playing to my town meta... and continue this course.

There are also a few things that I think I'd be straight up incapable of faking as scum until I get more scum experience and comfort. But I'm not going there, lol.

[Mathdino]

Creature is aware of his meta. He posts about it all over his wiki.

NSG is also aware of her meta. We've had multiple conversations about it in between games. She even linked me to her scumposting and townposting and we talked about the differences.

Do you think this makes Creature and NSG unreadable by meta?

[Mathdino]

@Luca: UCV was certainly unaware of his playstyle back then, but he currently is, IMO.

You didn't really answer the question though.

NSG and Creature are fairly aware of their meta. NSG in particular is DEFINITELY aware, as I can confirm by her literally bringing it up to me in sitechat once.

Does this mean meta on them and current UCV should be dismissed?

@Creats: Dude that doesn't change my point, it just shows that you were hyperaware of your meta in 2016.

@Gamma: I already answered that, keep reading.

[Mathdino]

Math, if someone is aware of their meta then of course it shouldn't be relied on.

I've been stung by scum surviving games because of their meta too many times now - it's the worst way to lose a game.

Yet Creature is practically a meme on this site for his alignment always being so hilariously obvious. There are people with a 100% track record of reading Creature across tons of games.

And most people who've played with NSG before can pretty easily read her. Not on some wishy-washy basis, but on an actual good description of her meta, some of which she (unfortunately for her scumgames) provided to me herself.

I think your view of the game is stuck in that weird period of 2014 where everyone decided to start shitting all over meta. Self-awareness hurts meta only if you think the player is actually capable of changing it.

I, for example, don't know my own scumtells yet, even though I can gutread my own posts. So how would I go about changing them?

I also don't really adhere to the "scum should imitate their towngame as much as possible always" philosophy, so that's another thing.

[Mathdino]

You've gotten "pinged" by all 3 of the players who've stood against you in some way.

Also, question to the audience, did Gamma just fall for my daytalk trap by reading chronologically? I feel like Gamma would have strong reason to believe there's actually daytalk in this setup...

Edit: Creature, that's literally the point I've been making to Luca. What are you arguing with me about?
How closely have you been reading?

[Mathdino]

You want me to tell you on behalf of 11 other people if you're the only one who got pinged?

"Stood against you" doesn't mean "scumreading you".

Edit: Jay, enough people don't read the rules that that trick generally works on around one person a game.

[Mathdino]

I guess you could call it a bit LAMISTy. There are basically 3 scenarios here:

A. He's town. Ok cool.

B. He's scum not with you, and is trying to defuse a fight that he knows is TvT for the towncred.
This works to gain one post's worth of towncred I guess, but if you and I are actually TvT, our fighting is actively anti-town and is worsening the gamestate and the thread. So that would be a super anti-scum move to make.

C. He's scum with you, and is coaching you into getting off my ass.

B seems unlikely. C is plausible. But I'm not doing pre-flips on page 9, so I'm comfortable calling him town for now, and if you're town, he's a definite townread. If you're scum, different story.

Edit: Awkward wording is expected from newbies.

[Mathdino]

Assuming he's a rational actor, he'd have to believe he'd gain more for scum from a single post of towncred than he'd gain from letting the 1v1 continue.

I believe there's far more scum utility in letting this continue. Defusing a TvT doesn't feel like newbscum play at all.

[Mathdino]

Every single vote do far is bad

Luca is probably actually town, so thank god I don't have to worry about that 1v1

A50 is also probably town honestly, having a real hard time seeing him as scum here

Will explain more in an arbitrary period of time

Let's say 6 hours
UNVOTE: Luca

[Mathdino]

Ebwop: every vote since my last post is bad

[Mathdino]

Gamma and luca please don't blow up the thread thanks

Luca, people can push Gamma without you

Gamma, the luca case has already been made

There is a specific reason I need the thread to not blow up thanks

[Mathdino]

Always appreciated your playstyle, but GOD do I hope you're not vig this time

Obviously, I'm not answering this. But you must admit that my Vig-play makes the game more exciting. I mean, if the town's winning I make the game more balanced...

Hope you don't mind if I jailkeep you then

I counterclaim

[Mathdino]

I still do not remember my role pm

[Mathdino]

jay fakeclaimed vig as VT in a semi-open to save himself from a lynch (there was a 55% chance there was another vig to counterclaim, IIRC)

aneninen once vigged me after i was cop cleared because aneninen couldn't handle the idea that i knew what his role was (i'm good at PR hunting when i need to be)

paradox once self deadline-hammered as the town's only remaining power role legitimately thinking it was the pro-town move

a50 is just a crazy person

[Mathdino]

as scum that was the actual best move you could've made

i think i mentioned that in the mod topic

as town, fakeclaiming is bad no thx

anyway

jay what's your lynchpool so far

[Mathdino]

You thought you self hammered, same difference

Believe it or not, I actually have faith in your reads when we're both town, considering you were dead right in Marked For Death and had I been town in Creature's game, we'd have come to the same conclusions. Obviously the problem occurs when you fail to read me, but that's another story

Wanna do a writeup?

[Mathdino]

7. No invisible, impossibly small, or encrypted text. I feel this is a given though.

[Mathdino]

A) What's a writeup in this context?
B) I believe having faith in my reads is one of the most stupid things you could do as town. I'd say that sentence in itself was scummy

I haven't read your other games. I skimmed Geriatric White Flag, where you got mislynched (congrats). My interpretation is that you get yourself so caught up in your interactions with other players that they just end up turning on you.

My experience with you is fine. We've agreed on a lot both times we were ingame together, and I'd argue you were the only townie in Marked For Death that wasn't in some way hyper-responsible for that loss.

Write-up just means a reads list. Need to see your big picture thought process to sort you anyway.

And like, obviously there are definitely a few players here whose reads I would have more faith in, but every bit helps.

[Mathdino]

Oh shit guys, my day-1-winning reads come in only a few hours!

Get your posts in before I read you wrong! Go go go!

Spoiler: @Almost50

Professor Plum, in the conservatory, with the candlestick.

[Mathdino]

Had nothing to do with the spoiler tag, had to do with the encrypted text, lol. I'm parodying 327.

Where's my good pal NSG?

[Mathdino]

A50 give me something on topic so I don't fuck up my incoming read on you and erroneously call for you to be vigged

[Mathdino]

It's okay I already know their alignments

[Mathdino]

I feel pretty alone. Well, here goes. From the coldest takes to the hottest takes.

pintu is town.

Big surprise, woop woop. If he's not town, he's gonna slip up at some point later on. The awkward non-native-speaker thing reminds me of town UnaBombaH tbh.

jmo is extremely town.

I at no point actually thought he was scum. More on this later.

Gamma feels town.

I guess.

A50 is actually town.

I don't claim to understand why he does shit all the time but I do claim a reasonable ability to read him (until I'm proven wrong). Could be worth a rolecopping when we pick that PR up. He's also transparently trying to dodge the NK, which indicates basically jackshit about his role.

Ooh we're getting into the hotter takes.

Creature is scum.

But did you really need me to tell you that? This is hilariously transparently scum Creature. We're not speedlynching him, but if he's not today's lynch, he should be tonight's vig.

Luca is probably actually just town.

I got caught up in my 1v1, and I guess I could come back and revisit this but there have been enough good points about Luca-town that I'm willing to just write him off as a tunnely/predatory/aggressive player and move on.

There's likely scum between {Aneninen, mutant}.

Call it gut mixed with PoE. This isn't a strong read. Aneninen is good at scum, and I think there's a fair chance he's pushing scum agenda. mutant feels off.

Paradox and Jay are currently not readable.

Stop trying. Jay dies before LyLo, and Paradox needs to provide more content or he goes straight into the scumpool.

northsidegal is actually scum.

DOUBLY so if Creature turns out to be town through the day. Creature's read was right on point. I'll give NSG a couple chances to explain to me why exactly I think that.
And yes, this is a test, the response may very well affect this read. Please do actually explain why I, personally, Mathdino, am scumreading you. I wanna see if you're seeing the same things.

VOTE: northsidegal

[Mathdino]

VC 1.03

Creature(3):

Aneninen 16, Gamma Emerald 18, jmo16mla 85

Gamma Emerald(1):

pinturicchio 22

jmo16mla(2):

northsidegal 94, TheGoldenParadox 105

Aneninen(2):

JaydragonKing 148, mutantdevle 167

Mathdino(1):

Luca Blight 159

Luca Blight(1):

Mathdino 166

Not Voting:

Almost50, Creature

aight let's do some prime-ass pre-flip VCA

gamma, if scum, is throwing associations off by parking a vote on creature, the most vulnerable scumbuddy
aneninen doesn't really know who creature is (now that i think about it, aneninen's discussions regarding creature ring pretty town so gamma could be the scum on this wagon)
jmo's vote really lucked out in hitting scum, he's town for other reasons

NSG's vote was awful
paradox's vote sheeping it was standard paradox
jay and mutant going for the aneninen wagon after i completely cooled off on pushing it was pretty lame

why did the mod pop into the thread without giving a votecount

brb finding votes myself

[Mathdino]

Jay that literally means I'm going autolynch you without a cc on a PR claim

You will not fakeclaim in a full open, that just draws out the real power roles

Also fuck you if you end up forcing me to check my role pm

[Mathdino]

caveat: i actually am okay with fakeclaiming a power role when drawing out that town power role is actually better for town

for example, in a setup with a cop/doc and no scum roleblocker, i've fakeclaimed cop before just to force the real cop to out (so the doc could protect them)

but yadda yadda optimal mafia strategy yadda yadda

you have to know you're making the right call in situations like that or you'll be derided for a long time
not just the right call in that game, but the right call no matter who ends up being scum

[Mathdino]

FoS Mathdino

flip floppy as hell. Tell me the previous post was a joke and I'll get off your back.
VOTE: northsidegal
Actual vote.
Also feel like Jay is town for taking the effort to separate informative lynches from gut lynches, looks towny in my opinion.
Also, I feel like a possible motive for Almost being so passive that if he was active in this scenario, people would become suspicious that he wasn't NKed(since he can't NK himself).

1. Given that you're piggybacking my NSG vote, I have 0 incentive to get you off my back

2. Don't ever townread Jay for making nice looking posts, lol. He can be read on motivation, but people don't try because he has this air of having shit reads and being bad at town.

3. Good theory on A50. I have no comment on it at this time, however, other than that I'm still townreading him.
Honestly I'd be suspicious if he never gets NK'd regardless of whether he's using this strategy.

Townreading Paradox for that A50 thought though, that was pretty nuanced.

[Mathdino]

I doubt this slot is a PR for reasons that it'd probably be anti-town to discuss.

If you think that I would never forget if I were a PR because I seem like I have a great memory, you're dead wrong. In fact, I'm pretty sure RedFlavor only asked us to confirm our alignments, which means I never even had to type back my role.

Judging by my own recollection, I think I have about a 1/5 chance of being a JK, 1/5 chance of being a vig, and 3/5 chance of being a VT.

Fair reads list.

@Jay: Jump on the NSG wagon, she literally told me a month ago how to read her. I got this.

Edit: Oh god not this again

[Mathdino]

@Math:

Are you going to moan every time I question a scumread towards me?

It's becoming tedious.

It's the fact that you never seem to question scumreads toward other people.

Your play is selfish. This is a team game. You reduce town cohesion.

[Mathdino]

Sounds good. Benefit of the doubt, I think you're probably actually town, nothing personal, etc etc. And legit interested to hear your reads on players who haven't really interacted/scumread you.

I think today should be a Creature vs northsidegal gladiation. I really can't see myself lynching anyone else.

[Mathdino]

I would actually love to go into that because I'm pretty proud of my play this game, but only when I actually start canvassing for the lynch.

I'm not like 100% confident enough in this read to speedlynch her without a reaction.

That was half a lie; she didn't really explain how to read her, but we went over our respective scumgames and she more demonstrated that I COULD read her. Honestly I think we've just seen each other too much at this point. I don't expect her to be the easiest sort ever for others but I'd like to think I can gutread her, even if she's only posted however few times.

Do you have other reads at this point?

[Mathdino]

Creature, none of your ISO is actually game-relevant so far except your one vote. Not gonna speak with you if I have nothing to respond to.

I agree with your NSG vote and that's that.

[Mathdino]

It's not about your postcount this time just so you know.

If you're town, then I think this is just the D1-winning wagon.

Have you ever bussed (hardbussing or softbussing) on D1 as scum before? Gonna just trust you on this one.

[Mathdino]

Hold course. We're pressuring NSG right now.

Gamma's town regardless of Creature's alignment.

[Mathdino]

Creature-scum bounces up his activity once people start getting all riled up over trying to activity-tell him.

In Stack the Deck, no one seriously did that, which is why he was able to flake out in peace.

In JK9++, no one did that until Jay deflected the wagon onto Creats, at which point Creature choked (having not contributed for dozens of pages).

Anything uPick was just too long for Creature to actually catch up in and deliver something resembling goodposting.

He hasn't cleared himself, but NSG should still be the primary wagon here.

mutant, hop on if you haven't already?

Sidenote: Pintu blew all his towncred from me after that vote tbh.

[Mathdino]

Honestly, wagoning Creature is in no way the best way to tell if he's scum. We're not ready to end the day on a Creature lynch.

You guys should really be wagoning NSG instead.

Gonna try a thing for funsies.

Spoiler: VoteCount Settings

priorVCNumber=0
url=viewtopic.php?f=51&t=75223
playerList=Mathdino,JaydragonKing,Almost50,Luca Blight,northsidegal{nsg},Creature,Pinturicchio,Aneninen,Gamma Emerald,TheGoldenParadox,jmo16mla,mutantdevle
replacementList=
moderatorNames=RedFlavor
dayStartNumbers=0
cleanDay=true
deadline=2018-03-13 13:20:00
deadList=
voteOverrides=

Code: Select all

[spoiler=Day 1][/spoiler]

[Mathdino]

Votecount 1.1

northsidegal(3)

~ Creature(20), Mathdino(89), TheGoldenParadox(11)

Creature(3)

~ Gamma Emerald(71), JaydragonKing(40), mutantdevle(17)

Gamma Emerald(2)

~ Aneninen(13), jmo16mla(44)

Mathdino(1)

~ Luca Blight(50)

jmo16mla(1)

~ northsidegal(9)


Not Voting (2): Almost50(11), Pinturicchio(15)

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2018-03-13 13:20:00)

[Mathdino]

Math, be a babe and look at your new mod PT to tell us who the scum are?

dude if i can't fucking remember my own role do you think i remember who i sent scum PMs to

it's probably one of creature and NSG, let's be honest

[Mathdino]

wat

the lynch is obviously not actually between you two

if there are better leads, fine, but the leads so far aren't great

you do you, i'm not the mayor of this town

[Mathdino]

also literally everyone has been active and up to date except creature/NSG

[Mathdino]

man, i already talked about that

[Mathdino]

literally in the same post where i called you scum too

why are you focusing on the part where i call you scum lol

it was practically a placeholder read

i want input on the rest tbh

[Mathdino]

What do you think about Almost50?

to be clear i was talking about this post

like i wrote up a reads list in shining red boldass text and all creature took out of it was that i was potentially activity-telling him

shit man creature is actually scum

i would prefer not to lynch him though if he can be vigged

[Mathdino]

paradox is locktown
no scum thinks they could ever get a mislynch on me in this situation, knowing me, lol

you're falling for the "the last time i played with you, you were scum" trap
no harm done

i still haven't answered your inconsistency questions because this entire day has been one long-ass gambit

hype hype for the reveal

[Mathdino]

Do you think i pocket the same player twice in a row lol

I'll explain the gambit before I even start gearing up for the lynch, 100% Mathdino guarantee

Also people tend to auto scumread people after getting duped by their scumgame, it's natural and is honestly a pretty townish if irrational thing to do

[Mathdino]

Paradox have you not noticed the questions I've basically ignored through the game despite being called on them

Do I seem like the kinda guy to ignore questions when they're too tough

[Mathdino]

A50 get off your ass and place a vote

you're not gonna get NK'd or be held hugely accountable for literally putting one vote down

voting is the bare minimum of helping town in this situation

ideally NSG but you do you

[Mathdino]

I feel pretty confident in arguing that only Aneninen would be bad enough at vigging to the point of vigging A50

Creature vig is probably the right call here.

I strongly believe jailkeeper should be used defencively. If the vig hits scum (which I believe it will), scumteam will just send the obvious vig target to perform the NK.

[Mathdino]

Ongoing games, Paradox. Ignore it, he doesn't have to respond to that.

[Mathdino]

However,
UNVOTE:
According to the site rules I may not explain this.

So I figured this was a general towntell because for most players it would be a towntell, but then I checked his scumgame and he does almost the exact same thing (set up a "this is what I meant back there" moment later on), but then I found some towngames where he did something similar, so fuck me, this is just NAI LAMISTing.

Just cautioning against townreading this.

[Mathdino]

So really everybody's gonna be like "lynch or vig creature" regardless of what I say?

You know reads can change right?

I haven't sorted NSG's alignment yet, I'm working on it, I can say "we should lynch this" and not actually end up lynching them. Calm yourself, we're a few days into the game.

[Mathdino]

Creature's reads are good. Real good. He's a very common N1 mafia kill as a result. It just looks like they're not good because he doesn't push them at all or give many reasons. But he's basically been responsible for winning large themes before.

D3 Town-Creature is very bad for mafia to have around. Don't be so dismissive.

I could deal with NSG scumflip, vig on Jay (in the name of paranoia and bringing us down to evens), and not totally sure where we'd go from there.

Edit: This is town Creature.

[Mathdino]

She feels disconnected from this game.

    ^really i couldn't tell

[Mathdino]

creature i guarantee you're not gonna see this as bussing when i drop where my scumread is coming from

[Mathdino]

i guess it's luca
jay should just be vigged, we're never getting a wagon on him unless it's policy
and doing that will just fuck up the VCA

tbh i dropped luca into town to try to distance my brain from the "SCREW YOU FOR 1V1ING ME" mindset
and because PoE created a scumpool of {NSG, Creature, Anen, mutant}
but yeah that no longer works

[Mathdino]

Why I Have Thought NSG Is Scum

You're gonna hate this if you're not into gambits

Basically, the earlier I can sort NSG, the more comfortable I'll feel about the gamestate. Probably the greatest balance between "player I can respect" and "player I won't get paranoid of".

This is basically what's motivated my play so far. If I can sort the obvious people, I'm good. That said, I didn't wanna just try to pressure NSG into activity or try to gutread her off awkwardness.

HOT TAKE: NSG is locktown. Good to know, moving on then.

So this was a straight up lie. I at no point thought this.

I trust NSG on this I think.
VOTE: jmo

This was also a lie. I was townreading jmo through the whole game.

My thesis was this:

I wanted to act exactly like how NSG is paranoid of my scumgame. I've played scum with her twice. Both times, a primary theme was that I was trying too hard to townread and thus pocket her.
My thought was that by immediately calling her locktown and fanning her wagon, she would get paranoid and ask why the fuck I was locktowning her from like 3 posts.

Hey NSG, can I get basic reads on:
Jay
Mathdino
Creats
mutant

This was a veiled way to ask for a read on me. I didn't give a shit about a Jayread at this time.

It was also about post 88. I've read NSG's scumgames, and she's nowhere near as awkward this game.

The initial posts were weird but those couple posts she made were pretty insightful and seemed like questions that could make people rethink things, which is what I expect from town-NSG more than anything.

Your posts basically lead you to scumread people and leave it at that. I can list about 10 questions in your ISO that there's really no good response to. In my experience, questions like that are either busywork or theatre, both from scum.

Luca got me involved in a whole other issue. People asked me why the hell I had NSG as locktown, so I made up an explanation. This also serves as a breadcrumb. The following post is from RC's Anything uPick, in which I locktowned NSG and she got paranoid:

i'd say my play so far has been entirely consistent with my scumgame. i would expect anyone familiar with my meta to scumread me so far, actually. what're you basing your comparison on?

The scumgame you linked me in sitechat the other day. You're

nowhere near as awkward

.

Initial

"?"

posts

made me think "Ok NSG is aware her scumgame is awkward and is trying to avoid that". But there were a

couple posts you made

that actually made me somewhat

rethink things

and be like "huh, wow, weirdly good thinking" and that's

what I expect from town-NSG more than anything

.

Lemme know if you want quotes.

I literally copy-pasted this explanation from my scumgame because:
1. I wanted to make it clear later on that I was literally mimicking my scumgame as much as possible here. Breadcrumb.
2. I wanted to see if this would gutping NSG like it did back then.

NSG, rather than (justified) paranoia of me townbinning her, instead glossed over the townreads on her, went inactive (while site active, which makes me think she allowed herself to be townread), and instead is assuming that I'm activity telling her (I'm not), and going after me in response, which strikes me as not how she would genuinely respond to this scumread.

@NSG:

Benefit of the doubt here. Why did you not seem to give a shit that I was locktowning you early on?

tl;dr @All:

I never actually townread NSG, I wanted to purposefully act like I was pocketing her and see if she noticed.

[Mathdino]

fuck i'm not pagebottoming this

Why I Have Thought NSG Is Scum

You're gonna hate this if you're not into gambits

Basically, the earlier I can sort NSG, the more comfortable I'll feel about the gamestate. Probably the greatest balance between "player I can respect" and "player I won't get paranoid of".

This is basically what's motivated my play so far. If I can sort the obvious people, I'm good. That said, I didn't wanna just try to pressure NSG into activity or try to gutread her off awkwardness.

HOT TAKE: NSG is locktown. Good to know, moving on then.

So this was a straight up lie. I at no point thought this.

I trust NSG on this I think.
VOTE: jmo

This was also a lie. I was townreading jmo through the whole game.

My thesis was this:

I wanted to act exactly like how NSG is paranoid of my scumgame. I've played scum with her twice. Both times, a primary theme was that I was trying too hard to townread and thus pocket her.
My thought was that by immediately calling her locktown and fanning her wagon, she would get paranoid and ask why the fuck I was locktowning her from like 3 posts.

Hey NSG, can I get basic reads on:
Jay
Mathdino
Creats
mutant

This was a veiled way to ask for a read on me. I didn't give a shit about a Jayread at this time.

It was also about post 88. I've read NSG's scumgames, and she's nowhere near as awkward this game.

The initial posts were weird but those couple posts she made were pretty insightful and seemed like questions that could make people rethink things, which is what I expect from town-NSG more than anything.

Your posts basically lead you to scumread people and leave it at that. I can list about 10 questions in your ISO that there's really no good response to. In my experience, questions like that are either busywork or theatre, both from scum.

Luca got me involved in a whole other issue. People asked me why the hell I had NSG as locktown, so I made up an explanation. This also serves as a breadcrumb. The following post is from RC's Anything uPick, in which I locktowned NSG and she got paranoid:

i'd say my play so far has been entirely consistent with my scumgame. i would expect anyone familiar with my meta to scumread me so far, actually. what're you basing your comparison on?

The scumgame you linked me in sitechat the other day. You're

nowhere near as awkward

.

Initial

"?"

posts

made me think "Ok NSG is aware her scumgame is awkward and is trying to avoid that". But there were a

couple posts you made

that actually made me somewhat

rethink things

and be like "huh, wow, weirdly good thinking" and that's

what I expect from town-NSG more than anything

.

Lemme know if you want quotes.

I literally copy-pasted this explanation from my scumgame because:
1. I wanted to make it clear later on that I was literally mimicking my scumgame as much as possible here. Breadcrumb.
2. I wanted to see if this would gutping NSG like it did back then.

NSG, rather than (justified) paranoia of me townbinning her, instead glossed over the townreads on her, went inactive (while site active, which makes me think she allowed herself to be townread), and instead is assuming that I'm activity telling her (I'm not), and going after me in response, which strikes me as not how she would genuinely respond to this scumread.

@NSG:

Benefit of the doubt here. Why did you not seem to give a shit that I was locktowning you early on?

tl;dr @All:

I never actually townread NSG, I wanted to purposefully act like I was pocketing her and see if she noticed.

[Mathdino]

I don't think I've ever pulled something like that as town, though. In Marked For Death, I locktowned you because you overtly/cheekily reaction tested me in a way that I thought helped the gamestate. All the other completed games in which I've tried to read you specifically as town off three posts were scumgames.

I'll reevaluate your ISO/your play as time goes on and get back to you.

In the meantime:
- Gonna need scumreads from you. You're town, I'm town, who scum?
- Is Creature playing his scumgame, or is he just wrong town here?

[Mathdino]

@Everyone voting me – please inform me of what your mathdino read is. Doesn't have to be detailed, you can condense it to a few words, even.

I think I misread a few things while I skimmed the catchup (I was rushing so I could drop that). M'bad, this post is the best I got. Realised that the others weren't about going after me and were instead criticising my play, and I mixed you up with the ones who did retaliatorily wagon me.

So what's pretty obvious here is that either NSG is scum with one of the people pushing back against this wagon (or pushing for a wagon on me over town-Creature (afraid to push town-Creature)) or that NSG is town... and honestly scum could still be pushing back against me.

Not totally sure what to do here.

[Mathdino]

Domineering playstyle, get towncred for going after me and defending poor NSG and Creature after you guys obvtown yourselves.

My town-inconsistencies are an easy thing for people to hop on, and it's easy to hide behind that kind of logic because town is bad at spotting reaction tests (and people like to policy lynch gambiters).

[Mathdino]

I didn't disclose that it was a reaction test at all. I breadcrumbed the test when I was 80% of my way into it. The reaction test was literally saying "HOT TAKE: NSG is locktown" and seeing what NSG would do in response to me playing a caricature of my scumself.

Paradox knows me and knows the difficulty in getting me lynched. You don't. Read context, I've explained both of these sufficiently for you to get it already.

What doesn't align with what bravado? I've pointed out a bunch of cases where I was townreading people who hopped on the Creature wagon for precisely that logic. Gamma in particular.

[Mathdino]

Ohh, I got it, you think I'm being arbitrary with who I think would push me as what alignment.

It's a case by case basis. I think Paradox in particular is a person who would be scared to push me as scum, after I already claimed I would explain the inconsistencies in full.

Most of the rest of the people who've pushed me I don't think would be scared here, especially the people who know that Creature is gonna obvtown himself (which could easily have been discussed in the PT beforehand).

[Mathdino]

Votecount 1.2

northsidegal(2)

~ Creature(50), Mathdino(115)

Mathdino(2)

~ Luca Blight(64), TheGoldenParadox(23)

Creature(2)

~ Gamma Emerald(97), JaydragonKing(46)

jmo16mla(1)

~ northsidegal(29)

Gamma Emerald(1)

~ jmo16mla(44)

Not Voting (4): Almost50(20), Pinturicchio(15), Aneninen(16), mutantdevle(28)

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2018-03-13 13:20:00)

This is a very bad votecount. Seems entirely plausible that all 3 top wagons are on town.

I also overestimated the number of people actually pushing me because Luca decided to spend an entire page or two nitpicking my posts.

Creature vote was fine, his and my read of early NSG was aligned, I can plausibly see Creature with that read.
Luca push on me is still bad, Paradox townread holds.
Gamma continuing to vote Creature despite townreading him is probably a fluke. Jay hopping on Creature seems weird, idk how to read that.

VOTE: Luca
While I debate what to do with NSG in my head/with Creats.

[Mathdino]

1) You also voted her as a reaction test, which you let known at the time. To be honest the entire gambit falls flat due to NSG not being active - you should have at least waited for her to return and catch-up before reversing your read on her.

2) You misunderstood, I'm not talking about me. Read my second line again carefully.

3) My point was that you say scum would be more scared to target town-Creature than town-you, but earlier you made out as though town-you is scum's worst nightmare.

1. It was a "NSG can you figure out my puzzle", a puzzle that I figured only town-NSG would be able to solve. I believed that town-NSG would be the only one to notice me locktowning her as suspicious, while scum-NSG would coast on it.
The reaction was whether or not she figured it out. In that case, disclosing that it was a reaction test doesn't help scum-NSG; she still didn't figure out the puzzle.
I sped up the process due to the slowness of the day, the fact that I knew NSG was posting elsewhere, and the fact that 5 people were all waiting on me explaining wtf was up with my read progression on NSG and jmo (those were the only fake reads).

2. I'm talking about you. There are 2 people going after me, you and Paradox. I overestimated and thought there were more. Paradox I'm townreading, he knows better as scum than to do this. You I'm scumreading.

3. I understand. More broadly, my assumption is that people who have seen me play a full towngame would know that I can easily powerlynch scum, and it's much better to just kill me off at night.
You have not seen my game, and I can threaten you all I want, but it doesn't change the fact that you haven't seen it, and you also don't read like someone who would be scared of pushing a strong player as scum.

[Mathdino]

You never explained why you knowingly misrepped me and twisted my words in our earlier 1v1?

Why should I respond to that?

People agreed with me on that, dude. No one came out of that thinking "Oh wow Mathdino sure did misrep Luca, his interpretation of Luca is shit and Luca has a point".

If someone else asked me about it, sure I'll go over it, but you already come across as a player who has an issue with basically every reason to scumread you, so I'm not gonna prolong this 1v1 and fill up more pages that people aren't reading anyway.

My response is basically "No I didn't". If anyone is concerned about it, they can take a look.

[Mathdino]

Gamma agreed, pintu thought the perspective was fair, Creature was scumleaning you. No one else really commented (or maybe they didn't read it).

Look I mainly made that case not because I was trying to wagon you (if I was I wouldn't have used second-person) but because you asked me to elaborate on why I felt a certain way, and I felt obligated to explain my thought process.

I'm not going to keep reiterating all of it because I'm not gonna convince you you're scum. I treat people like they're town when talking to them, and in this case, trying to convince you that the points I made weren't bullshit isn't gonna get me anywhere. THAT is why I've been trying to disengage from this.

If you're town, you're mad biased right now (from your point of view, the things I'm calling scummy just didn't happen, no shit). I'm accusing you of doing things scum would do and you're saying I'M TOWN I DIDN'T DO THAT STUFF. Like, okay, great, but I still think you're scum.

If literally anyone else holds me accountable for the stuff I've said about you, I'll talk it over with them. But talking this over with you over and over every 4 pages doesn't benefit me at all.

[Mathdino]

1. No.

2. Of course that's the spin I'm putting on it. Town typically doesn't ask questions with predatory intent. I'm calling into question your motivation behind asking those questions. You, if you're town, are always going to see your own questions as beneficial to the gamestate. I, thinking you're scum, don't think that.
I've explained what I can.

Regarding Gamma, I'm townreading him for other reasons. I'm not some kind of scumhunting robot; I don't use the exact same tells on everyone. Gamma's lines of questioning are consistent with what I know of Gamma.

Lemme put it this way. I, as scum, am perfectly capable of casing/tunneling people.
Basically no one is reading these back-and-forths, and those that are, are supporting me.
Why does scum-me disengage from you when I believe that continued engagement just makes you look worse?
Do you think scum-me knows my points are bad and is purposefully trying to dodge being called out on it?
Hell, more directly -- do you think scum-me is scared of you?

[Mathdino]

Also, addressing the idea that I'm never getting lynched unless it's policy- Dino, I'm charismatic but I'm not sure my scum game is so good yet that I can convince an entire town I'm actually good without more then half the people still suspecting me.

How hard is it to admit I'm actually town this game? Too the point where you asked like three times for me to be the Vig target? Elsa Jay isn't going anywhere unless the Mafia decides to kill me, and even then, they still gotta deal with the enevitible Jailkeeper or Vigilante on me. I can really see either going for me, but not both at once. Heck, they may even be checking either my role or Dino's role, I'm 95% sure of that.

This is understandable.

Given that I do think you can be read off motivations, I'll retract "Jay should be vigged".

It's mathematically bad for us if vig does nothing at all, which is the main reason I've been trying to figure out what PRs should do.

[Mathdino]

@1. Mathdino: Can you find it in your heart to have some faith in the PRs doing the right thing w/o you directing them?

Uh.
No.
Not really at all, no, sorry.

To reiterate my last experiences with vigs:
- Anything uPick: Vig shoots a suicide bomber N1 (and then scum-me on like N4 but that was just obv at that point).
- Switch: Vig shoots doctor N1, and shoots nothing but town as the game progresses.
- Winter Wonderland (NSG's game): Vig shoots cop and then gets shot.
- Pick Your Power X/Y: Aneninen shoots me after I was copcleared because of paranoia and "oh wow Mathdino seems domineering and manipulative, must know too much".

I have 0 confidence in vigs to the point that I literally think the presence of a vig in a setup is anti-town because of MS towns. I have a plan to account for this but it fundamentally revolves around:

Vigs need to stop trying to play hero.

Policy-shots, people that mafia will never shoot, and people that are likely to get lynched the next day are the only people that should be vigged. Not your vanity wagon.

Like, straight up, if I'm vig, I would not be vigging NSG or Luca as of now unless it was clear town was likely to lynch one of them. I'd just case them myself. But vigs get drunk on power and think they'll be the one that catches scum alone because town

just wouldn't understand, maaan.

It's stupid and it needs to stop site-wide. Vigs are responsible for too many losses.

[Mathdino]

I replied to your case point for point and you dropped it. If you genuinely want to get me lynched perhaps it would be in your interest to try and show why my questions are of a predatory nature, because only Gamma vaguely seems to agree with that and he's in his own world.

I just find it strange how you scumread me based on 1 main thing, yet accept it from others as being town. Like, you're just undermining your own point against me as it's obviously not very AI if people you think are town are doing the same thing.

Scum are wary of 1v1's in general - I'm Town and don't give a f*ck basically. I think you've been all over the place this game and I'm holding you to account for it. As scum I probably wouldn't want this because even if I succeeded in getting you lynched, I wouldn't exactly look good from it.

1. Does it look like I'm pushing you right now? When my vote was on you earlier, my primary project was waiting to get NSG/Creature sorted. I didn't

care

about you, the vote was more symbolic than a "LET'S GET THIS GUY".
and lol I can agree on Gamma being in his own world

2. It's a D1 point and it's what I have to work off of. Others have already dropped other towntells. I can give you some kind of nebulous "yeah but it was the way you did it" or "this just feels like what you'd do as scum" but that wouldn't be very satisfying, right? You haven't dropped any towntells in my book.

3. That doesn't seem right. Lazy-scum are wary of 1v1s. I'm fully aware that 1v1s are detrimental to the gamestate and will at least make a token effort to avoid them as town (or when trying to appear town). Correct scumplay here is to fill up 3 more pages with a back-and-forth and watch your case on me go nowhere (and hell, my case on you might go nowhere too). Increase town apathy, incentivise everyone to just not read it.
I consider your points against me bad, but I also don't consider them threatening enough to actually go and explain things to you, because I think town-you is just being irrational about this. There's always that one player who scumreads me for basically everything I do.

i guess it's luca
jay should just be vigged, we're never getting a wagon on him unless it's policy
and doing that will just fuck up the VCA

tbh i dropped luca into town to try to distance my brain from the "SCREW YOU FOR 1V1ING ME" mindset

and because PoE created a scumpool of {NSG, Creature, Anen, mutant}
but yeah that no longer works

This is just a lie - he said earlier I had enough

'good town points'

. Now it's convenient to scumread me again (perhaps because I'm not active at this point or on his case) he slots straight back into scumreading me again.

Another point Math ignored.

You said I had 'good town points' earlier but never elaborated on them, and apparently you've forgotten that was the reason you stopped scumreading me.

Explain.

When I'm trying to read players I'm in a 1v1 with, I recognise that I'm often flawed and so I end up defaulting to what others that I trust think. I didn't say you had "good town points", I said others had good points on you being potentially town. Specifically Aneninen. Forgot who was the other one.

Creature backing up this read gives me more confidence on the original scumread I had. It has nothing to do with your activity, your activity's fine.

[Mathdino]

I agree on majority rule more than anything. No one else has made suggestions, and obviously we're not ready for the day to end.

Besides, it's funny seeing people who are being threatened by a vigshot. Especially when I could very well be that vig

[Mathdino]

Okay, Dino,
First you said we should be gladiating NSG and Creats at this point. Is that still the case?
TBH Dino is looking more scummy by the minute. His gambit isn't scummy by itself, but it kinda failed.
The problem with vigshots is that person doesn't get a chance to claim.
I think that we should use the HURT: tage to decide who to vig. Right now I'm unsure but I'd be leaning towards jmo or NSG. I'd prefer Mathdino to be either the D1 or D2 lynch here(or not a lynch at all) for reasons that I'd prefer not to discuss.

No, of course not. That was a representation of that period in the game.

You seem to be scumreading me for being some kind of letdown leader who changes their mind and doesn't get proper results from all the gambiting. Like, fine, lose your faith and all, but you're making 0 efforts actually sus out my motivation here. I was less scummy to you when I was scum actually because I already knew what everyone's alignments were.

Would you be scumreading me still if my gambit got a hard result on NSG? After all, had she start tunneling me for that initial townread, she'd DEFINITELY be locktown in my book.

And if not, then why does NSGs behaviour at all affect your read on me?

Regarding the vig, there's a workaround. I disagree with using the hurt tags; you're basically asking us to openly PR hunt. Don't.

[Mathdino]

I dislike disagreeing with Creature but the only towntell I have from Gamma this whole game was that he went after Creature at a point where I don't think scum would or should.

Going over his ISO, I'm seeing a lot of posting that feels like busywork, and I'm also seeing the patterns pintu is suggesting.

Hate to sheep the guy Creats is voting, but this feels right:
VOTE: Gamma

Does anyone think pintu and Luca are scum together?

If not, and if pintu is scum, he's alignment informed and Luca is town (hence pushing me/Luca apart for the towncred).

@pintu: Counterpoint to your Math/Luca reads: If I were scum, filling up pages of 1v1 with Luca benefits me in this situation, because I would win the 1v1 and it would make everyone else apathetic and unwilling to read it. I don't think that logic really works.
And the ironic thing is that you're townreading me for engaging Luca while Luca is scumreading me for repeatedly trying to disengage from him

[Mathdino]

Wait what the fuck? Why the read change? This feels strange

It feels strange cuz it's on you.

Read change was predicated by:

- I'm running out of scumreads; if Creature and NSG are both town (not sure on NSG but I'm waiting on some meta for her), and if Luca is town as everyone seems to think, fuck all my scumreads, I'm not scumreading Aneninen or pintu, so I was looking at the options at hand.

- I never ISO'd you before. Just did, am scumreading the content.

- I was only townreading you for the Creature votes, which seemed genuine.

Like I can go through your 100 post ISO but then this is gonna be a repeat of me vs Luca.

[Mathdino]

Would you stop brown-nosing Creature already? Even if he had decent reads in past games, it seems ludicrous how much stock you're putting into his reads that have been for the most part unexplained.

Perhaps you should explain more about your towntell on Gamma? Why have you suddenly gone 180 on that read? Dare I say, this sudden shift feels

predatory

to me.

The timing of your Luca/Pintu scumteam question is weird - you sheep Pintu's view on Gamma, then in the following sentence throw a bit of shade on him.

Last paragraph - your arrogance really isn't an endearing quality. Your case on me was complete shit and I countered it completely. How can you say you would have won the 1v1 when this was the case and you had nothing to say back? I'm also

not

scumreading you for disengaging with me.

Really not selling me on the "team player" aspect.

Creature's primary flaw is that he doesn't push his reads at all and is shit at providing reasons. You're literally telling me "stop trusting Creature's reads just because he won past games with them". What?
If someone has been proven to have great reads, of course I'm going to take them into consideration. Plus, I'm not even following Creature on this one. I just said I felt bad for going against them, but I'm not seeing the game the way he is.

I already explained my townread on Gamma, and I just explained the switch in the post right above yours. It's not a 180; I wasn't hard townreading Gamma before. He was town by one towntell and by PoE.

I'm asking about the Luca/Pintu scumteam possibility because I'm trying to figure out if I can trust Pintu's townread of you. Because I'm trying to sort you.
Like you understand that even when you were my top scumread, I wasn't taking every single post apart and arguing why scum is doing it, right? At this point you're trying to interrogate me for every post when I'm using my own processes to figure things out. Processes you don't seem to really care about or participate in. It's tiring and it's like every post I write requires ANOTHER post to explain the original one. As hard as it may be to believe, my goal isn't to blow up my ISO with constant posting.

Again: Why should I say anything back? How does that help me or anyone? That's just getting locked in a tunnel.

Wait what the fuck? Why the read change? This feels strange

and if Luca is town as everyone seems to think

Since when did everyone think I was Town?

Even if that were the case, since when is that a valid reason to abandon your scumread?

Do you really not acknowledge any reasons that I may be town, independent from what anyone else says?

Gamma and pintu are both townreading your reactions to my read on you. Either one of them is defending you, their scumbuddy, or I'm willing to trust them on this.

It's a valid reason because I'm not a fucking scumhunting god.

I'm not going to listen to reasons you're town coming from YOU. I don't give a shit about people's defences, scum will always say whatever it takes to be townread. I need input from others to be a functional scumhunter. I'm a social player.

[Mathdino]

Pintu and Paradox seem fine to me. I consider Luca to basically be a policyvig. If town agreed to it, I'd love a vig on Luca, but otherwise, probably a bad idea.

You like calling scumteams. Who are you feeling as scumpartners for your potential scumreads?

Are NSG and Creature both town?

[Mathdino]

Im here

[Mathdino]

Definitely thinking scum between aneninen and gamma at this point
Call it poe

[Mathdino]

Those 3 are logical from your point of view so commendations for that

[Mathdino]

why would he claim prematurely without intent

[Mathdino]

in the open queue? not too often, only when it's a sinking ship

not sure i'd have an issue with that situation either way tbh

[Mathdino]

Hey guys, remember to declare intent before hammering, I have a thing I need to go over with everyone before any hammer

If I'm vig I'm gonna shoot anyone who hammers prematurely sooooo

@Luca: The situation of someone being put at L-1 and claiming immediately.
Usually pretty difficult for someone to come back from L-1 without a really good towncase.

[Mathdino]

Votecount 1.1

Gamma Emerald(5)

~ jmo16mla(45), Pinturicchio(21), Mathdino(135), TheGoldenParadox(28), mutantdevle(39)

Aneninen(2)

~ Creature(56), Almost50(29)

jmo16mla(1)

~ northsidegal(29)

Creature(1)

~ JaydragonKing(53)


Not Voting (3): Luca Blight(86), Aneninen(27), Gamma Emerald(118)

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2018-03-13 13:20:00)

re: mutantcase: i mean i agree with your read but also a shitton of that is definitely gamma's playstyle

i need to meta mutant, we have enough content at this point

[Mathdino]

@Anen: is that a fancy way of saying mutant is tunneling you

[Mathdino]

Could you answer my above query to Gamma? I'd trust your analysis of it more since a) I am mostly convinced you are town and B) I think Gamma is likely to exaggerate what parts of my case are nullified due to simply being his play style.

it would be much easier if

A. i wasn't also scumreading gamma

and

B. you actually summarised your case
i'm literally not reading all of that sorry

[Mathdino]

scum never actually rolefishes, that's just a dumb tell and is part of why i stopped listening to luca's points there
i have literally not once ever seen scum openly rolefish in a situation where people claiming actually benefited scum
i have seen scum rolefish to try to look town but it usually just helps town in the end

anyway mutant/gamma/anen makes me not want to read the thread anymore tbh
one of them is almost definitely scum for carrying this shit on

[Mathdino]

I've kinda tuned them out as well and have been posting non-game related stuff to get noticed and see if they'd jump for my throat so I could do something this game, but they are in their own world.

Fake-claiming Backup Jailkeeper by the way.

i counterclaim

[Mathdino]

wait LOL i was ignoring reasons for townreading me

what the fuck "stupid mistakes" have i even made lol

i've done more for publicly sorting players than you have mutant

also i would assume aneninen is trying to come up with some kind of justification for not scumreading me, rather than justifying why he's townreading me

[Mathdino]

also how can something be a stupid mistake as scum but simultaneously be an awesome play as town

a stupid play is stupid regardless of alignment unless you're shooting yourself in the foot by being too pro-town

[Mathdino]

Queen Elsa found dead in a ditch

[Mathdino]

shitfuck i think i'm just associating all bad points made by people this game with luca

i meant aneninen, who made that claim repeatedly

like on one hand i kind of expect pigeon logic from him since his wiki is full of tells that are imo either not actually tells or are outdated

but yeah the "YOUS ROLEFISHIN" is pretty shit

[Mathdino]

Hasn't seemed to have done anything for the entire second half of the game, and so my early gut townlean holds. Bunch of posts that it doesn't feel scum would make. Obviously through the lens of "jmo is an experienced 2012er" you can read a lot of his posts as cheeky scum, but that's making assumptions.

Really I just haven't seen any good reason to start scumreading him. Annoyed that he hasn't done shit half the week but real life, etc etc.

[Mathdino]

i'm really tilted that i can't get a lock on an NSG read because that was basically step 1 in the entire plan for today

and i need you guys to wait potentially a few real life days so i can figure this shit out

[Mathdino]

look i'm just gonna pretend i'm being useful right now
just lost a game, might hit a slump for the IRL day

Votecount 1.4

Gamma Emerald(4)

~ jmo16mla(45), Pinturicchio(23), Mathdino(146), mutantdevle(50)

mutantdevle(2)

~ Aneninen(35), Gamma Emerald(143)

Mathdino(2)

~ JaydragonKing(59), TheGoldenParadox(32)

Aneninen(2)

~ Creature(57), Almost50(36)

jmo16mla(1)

~ northsidegal(37)


Not Voting (1): Luca Blight(88)

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2018-03-13 13:20:00)

[Mathdino]

do you want to talk to paradox about the possibility of a mathdino/NSG scumteam in which mathdino claims scum by faking a gambit

[Mathdino]

@Aneninen: I can show you what I've got so far.

Prototype reads list
Almost50: Probtown
Aneninen: still sorting
Creature: still sorting
Gamma: nullscum but i clearly can't read this guy
Jay: can't read this guy but if I had to guess, town
jmo: townlean, the lurking is NAI
Luca: null, but even if he were scum people wouldn't lynch him with me so w/e
mutant: still sorting
NSG: waiting on new meta to sort this
pintu: still sorting
Paradox: locktown

if it looks shit, that's because i'm still in an "in between reads lists" stage
scum is in the people i'm still sorting
first step is NSG once i get that meta
then i need to figure out mutant's meta tells (no way i'm finding aneninen's)
the rest of the pieces should fall into place after that

I made the votecount because the last vote count had been inaccurate.
I'm pretending to be useful because my reads are still in flux and I have nothing to push or question, just a lot of (not really that good) content I need to ass myself to analyse.

[Mathdino]

withholding comment, sorry

[Mathdino]

...should i care?

he's not gonna get vigged so i'm not really concerned

if people randomly threatening him gets him to have better reads, good for him

[Mathdino]

I would expect you to care if you were genuinely sorting A50, yes.

You said earlier you're a

'team player

' which is why you revised your scumread of me; most people don't want to lynch me so you considered perhaps you were wrong. Why does A50's scumread of Paradox not make you question your locktown read there? Why does it not make you question where A50's scumread is coming from?

It's just not something I care about.

I think I'd only ask him why he was scumreading Paradox if

A. His read on Paradox was so wildly off that it made no sense (and it makes sense given A50 doesn't have the Paradox experience I do; experienced players tend to scumread Paradox, RC once mislynched him)

B. I was, myself, trying to sort Paradox and wanted input.

I think you think you're asking an alignment indicative question but at the end of the day you're asking me to wax philosophical about my playstyle and what gets me to go and ask questions. People are allowed to disagree with me, lol.

[Mathdino]

fuck it, you know what
i trust creature and A50 significantly more than i trust anyone on the gamma wagon

VOTE: Aneninen
also i think my aneninen tell works slightly better than random

choo choo guys

[Mathdino]

Good reads?

You seem to fundamentally disagree with the concept of sheeping good town players so we're really not gonna get anywhere here.

[Mathdino]

If A50 and Creature were wrong I think scum would've helped out with this wagon by now

[Mathdino]

@Jay: A50 and Creature are safer people to sheep than Gamma, and Aneninen is a hilariously easy person to push as a player.
I don't know what you're trying to tell me with your post really?

@pintu: My push on NSG was worthless. It was very explicitly a reaction test. If NSG is town, scum would just know that she's town and would probably come out as town under pressure. Not a wagon they want to be found on. Aneninen is not so easily sortable by pressure.

And yeah, I do think scum jumped on the Gamma wagon at some point. And yeah, I do know I'm one of those votes.

Are you scumreading me, or pointing out that I should be scumreading myself here?

[Mathdino]

Do stuff anyway.

Find Aneninen partners for me? He just ended a scumgame, PT shows high willingness to bus.

Also if you could help me townbin more people that would be pretty cool.

[Mathdino]

I meant what has A50 done to earn your trust this game? What makes you confident he is town?

Forgot to respond to this.



EHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

It's hard to explain. I guess I just think I can read the guy. Not like, soulread or know everything he's thinking/planning, but there are signs of certain things going on I guess?

You're not going to get a satisfactory answer on this, sorry. I'm just townreading him.

Edit: You're thinking Aneninen/mutant busteam?

[Mathdino]

Have you ever completed a game with NSG btw?

And idfk about mutant. I'm not willing to put in too much effort reading him until I do that metadive and see if I can find some kind of difference in his play.

[Mathdino]

*raises hand*
I've been reading Anen's posts, just not the triple wall v wall v wall of the last few pages or so.
I might go back and actually digest it all soon.

@Luca: Good catch. Gonna go over my games with mutant to see if that can be generalised.

[Mathdino]

i mean as long as you agree A50 is town, you can call me alignment informed all you want

so why are A50 and creature both wrong about aneninen?

[Mathdino]

if you wanna go the alignment informed route, you could also argue that i've been distancing or bussing, in which case you should probably help me bus right?

[Mathdino]

i have yet to find a way to properly gambit as scum tbh

not that it's a trust tell, just that i'm still trying to improve my scumgame

[Mathdino]

towngames are more a playground to me

get to do whatever the fuck i want within reason

[Mathdino]

tbh Aneninen is someone I consider hard-to-read because I could be underestimating him too much.

i largely agree with this

but there's also the matter of PoE at a certain point

he's a good scum player but if everyone else is town...

anyway do you not feel the same way about gamma?

[Mathdino]

I guess I'm townreading Gamma most because of his activity rn.

don't tell me you can activity tell gamma because he hates scum

[Mathdino]

okay so i fully admit that i'm biased as fuck because i'm sheeping here

but here are updated reads (order doesn't matter within categories):

Town: {Paradox, Creature}
Probtown: {A50, jmo}
Null-town: {Gamma, NSG} (Gamma by shitty D1 wagonomics)

Working on sorting: {Gamma, NSG, Jay, mutant}

Null-scum: {Luca, pintu}
Probscum: {Aneninen}

Edit: Heard he hasn't played scum in a while.

[Mathdino]

Scum driven wagon

I have a 6th sense for telling when wagons are shit

[Mathdino]

Luca put Gamma at L-1 before realising it was L-1 and jumping off.

[Mathdino]

you're going down a very bad road if you're gonna start scumreading creature

[Mathdino]

my progression on pintu:

pintu is town.

Big surprise, woop woop. If he's not town, he's gonna slip up at some point later on. The awkward non-native-speaker thing reminds me of town UnaBombaH tbh.

Sidenote: Pintu blew all his towncred from me after that vote tbh.

Does anyone think pintu and Luca are scum together?

If not, and if pintu is scum, he's alignment informed and Luca is town (hence pushing me/Luca apart for the towncred).

- I'm running out of scumreads; if Creature and NSG are both town (not sure on NSG but I'm waiting on some meta for her), and if Luca is town as everyone seems to think, fuck all my scumreads, I'm not scumreading Aneninen or pintu, so I was looking at the options at hand.

Pintu and Paradox seem fine to me.

Prototype reads list
Almost50: Probtown
Aneninen: still sorting
Creature: still sorting
Gamma: nullscum but i clearly can't read this guy
Jay: can't read this guy but if I had to guess, town
jmo: townlean, the lurking is NAI
Luca: null, but even if he were scum people wouldn't lynch him with me so w/e
mutant: still sorting
NSG: waiting on new meta to sort this
pintu: still sorting
Paradox: locktown

bro claiming i've been townreading you all game is pretty disingenuous
i will admit i have not commented on your play as much as i should have
but i stopped townreading you half the game ago
since then it was more of a "meh i have bigger fish to fry" kind of thing
since i've never played with you, you were very low on my list of people that i need to sort (anen, creats, mutant, NSG) so i paid very little attention to talking about you
regardless, i've slowly started to accept the reasoning from the camp that claims your posts seem kind of postury/generic

[Mathdino]

Also, if you're not going to interact then don't expect my read on you to get any better. In fact, if you're going to insist on being here without doing anything then I'd consider you a good kill for a vig.

DID SOMEONE SUGGEST POLICYVIGGING JAY

i'm actually pretty satisfied with this playerlist

there isn't really anyone i strongly want to policy lynch other than maybe luca

although luca became useful so even that's a bad idea

[Mathdino]

@pintu: yeah i'm sorry for that
i've been in a bit of an ivory tower this game
when i know almost the entire playerlist i kind of regress into innocent child playstyle

plus NSG/A50 basically not being present means a lot of players who are usually more collaborative aren't engaging people

could've been more forthcoming about stuff but anyway

here are the posts that started swinging me towards dropping you down a level in the reads list

Luca, could you keep going with the ISOing? I'm doing the same but I'm clearly seeing different things than you and need your insights to make a good comparison. Also, is the best content we have had in a while (Gamma and Mutant 1v1 was ridiculous)

this feels like buddying up to luca while not adding much value to the gamestate

If A50 and Creature were wrong I think scum would've helped out with this wagon by now

Under that logic, almost nobody jumped on NSG wagon when you tried to give that a push, so NSG could be scum because of this? I don't think so... And the reverse logic: the Gamma wagon got some momentum, was that scums jumping on that wagon? You were one of those votes, you know

this is a questionable post
it serves the purpose of
- redirecting my attention to NSG, who i could've potentially started scumreading again
- also redirecting my attention to people on the gamma wagon
- and then throwing shade at me and/or lowkey discrediting my theory by pointing out my scumread of gamma

I was pointing out that, by your logic, it would be more reasonable to go for someone who jumped on a wagon than someone whose wagon didn't get momentum because "scum didn't want to vote him". Aneni's case (as pointed out by Aneni himself) has no explanation at all, why would town jump there? Gamma's case, on the other hand, had some good arguments so it would be easier to jump there for scum. I'm not saying you are one of those scums; I'm actually thinking mutant could be scum on that jump and he had to build his case against him AFTER jumping and not BEFORE jumping. BUT, on my point of view, I can't get much information from that, as I am still scumleaning Gamma (not scumreading any more, tho).
So, my point is: could it be a better wagon than Aneni's wagon right now? What is it about Creature and A50 that you trust them so much? If you think scum jumped on the Gamma wagon, shouldn't a mutant wagon have more sense at this point?

tbh i kinda feel like a lot of your play lately has been a soft defence of aneninen
i don't think i'd really be comfortable flipping you before him

to answer your questions:
- Scum could jump on Aneninen really just on the basis that Creature/A50/Mathdino are requesting sheep votes. It's a pretty sheepable combo.
- No, the Gamma wagon feels wrong.
- Creature and A50 have a higher than random read accuracy.
- I mean no, a pintu wagon makes more sense if I'm just gonna start lynching on the Gamma wagon lol.

[Mathdino]

anyway do you not feel the same way about gamma?

I guess I'm townreading Gamma most because of his activity rn.

Why my activity specifically?

How does asking this question benefit town?

[Mathdino]

Luca put Gamma at L-1 before realising it was L-1 and jumping off.

Why is that scummy?
Honestly I feel like Luca is more likely town cos I feel like some of my reasons for sussing him are silly and I can understand some of his frustration with being pushed

Didn't say it was scummy. Just saying there are more lynchables on the Gamma wagon.

and lol at NSG vs Luca

[Mathdino]

NSG is someone whose playstyle i know pretty well (even if having trouble locking a read on her this game)
gonna take this opportunity to show how bad these ISOs are from the POV of someone who's not NSG

544 - why was it necessary for everyone voting you to reveal their Math read?

how is that not a good question

548 - avoids taking a real stance on Creature. I think Creature (or anyone) would be able to put more effort in without being told to by a partner, so I disagree with this point.

1. creature was not objectively sorted by that point in the game
2. if you've never played with scum creature, you're just not going to get it
i've had to be his teammate in a game where his death deactivated my power role, and he did nothing to save himself at all
i also lynched scum-him once in a game where his reads were pretty abjectly bad
it's not hard to tell, you just need enough time

733 - Not sure why she felt the need to let Paradox know she's townreading him while asking him this question.

this is definitely NAI dude, NSG does that as town all the time
"I'm townreading you therefore I want to work with you"
like really, ALL the time

749 & 876 - I don't see this point at all. He explained more this game, but more explanation =/= scummy at all. If you're going to throw shade on Pin here then at least say what is scummy about the content of his post - not just that it has more words than a reads list of his in his first game.

yeah see shit like this is a massive misrep of her explanation
as if she solely meant "more words" here
if you wanted to work with her on sorting pintu, you don't have to go through her ISO and find all of the inconsistencies you can in order to do so
you just respond to her point like a normal person

her read was good, and is something i strongly expect from town NSG
i actually skipped that post on the first read through

so uh
thanks for making me townread NSG i guess

She complained earlier about being scumread/wagoned while she was absent. Why then is NSG sitting on her jmo vote still when he hasn't been around for ages?

dear god man just ask her what she's gonna do with her vote

this isn't scummy

basically nothing you think is scummy is scummy

[Mathdino]

you kind of just wildly throw shade on everyone

problem is when half the shade is invalid or relies on bad/outdated/inapplicable tells

it just makes all your content look bad

[Mathdino]

That part wasn't bad tho

Do you want a cookie for it lol

Every iso you do looks like you're casing people

Disincentivises actually answering your questions or responding

[Mathdino]

I mean it's also blatantly based on bad towntells

Taking effort to explain things and pretty explanations does not a townie make

[Mathdino]

And I told you that your mutant point was good
Until it turned out that was bad too
I've basically agreed with 0 of your reads and I think the way you generate them is unfounded

What's the point of giving you a cookie for saying something like "yeah that seems town"
Congrats? The end result is bad reads and ostracising yourself by looking like you're casing everybody
You tunnel almost exclusively on town lol

[Mathdino]

Look us talking into the wind doesn't help anyone
What matters is influencing each other to get our reads across and improve them
Which also reveals agenda

I feel like you purposefully don't take others reads into account when generating your own, but also expect others to take stock in your ISOs

Two way street
Just feels like you're talking just to talk
I'll take a look though

Edit: man we're literally talking about my 2 examples of this, I'm not handholding you through my entire process

[Mathdino]

K yeah I'm intentionally cutting off this conversation sorrynotsorry

Lemme go look at pintus Gamma stance

[Mathdino]

Dude I also iso'd pintu not long ago, stop being an ass about everything

Sorry for the late reply, busy weekend. My problem with you is that I really have problems reading you! In our last game together was the same thing, I got you as a null/scumlean since I replaced in. No, I don't see any of your post as townie, but that clearly is my problem. The thing is, in this game I do have posts from you that makes me believe this time you are indeed scum, especially your interactions with others trying to defend me when I've given enough reasons to make the others believe I'm scum (I explained this in my wall post).

Let me explain my reasoning: I said at the begining of the game that the only two people I know before this game are TGP and you; knowing this, you could exploit this information to make me trust you as I would have difficulties trusting anyone else. But a better way to put it:
If you were scum: two options, you try to build a wagon on me as I'm playing in a different way I played in our game together and say things like "newb!scum, doesn't interact directly, posts too little, etc"; the second option would be the one I'm saying, trying to pocket me to win my trust and "get an easy townread from the newbie"
If you were town: two options, you try to build a wagon on me... you know were this is going: the second option would be... none. Why defending me as town if I really didn't give reasons to be defended?

So my conclusion is: if you were town, I would've expected you pushing me and nothing else from you. You didn't, I scumread you. But yes, I do really have trouble reading you, but I have to follow my instinct and reasoning even if I'm not completely sure

This is just a long-winded explanation of a simple "i think you're scum pocketing me"
And "you shouldn't have reasons to townread me so why defend me"
It just feels overjustified
There's nothing particularly complex or nuanced here

[Mathdino]

That was good, I lol'd

[Mathdino]

You think PoE scumhunting is scummy? It's not like I can just read you straight up normally.

I find it difficult to interact with your walls, since I'm not a serial wallposter anymore.

Because I'm hunting by PoE, it makes it all the more important to ensure that any potential scumread has possible partners. If no one really works as a partner, then something about my/Creature's/A50's view of the gamestate is flawed.

[Mathdino]

see the thing is when i engage people it tends to start filling up pages with walls
i play by a very "shoot from the hip" mentality

1. Do not misrepresent me. PoE-scumhunting, not interacting with your scumread, trying to find a PoE-scumread's partners and getting others to do so are scummy together.

2. It might have been better to ignore the next part. But still... whenever I'm nearby anyone can have "semi real time" interaction with me. Without walls. And I don't think you're a player who should complain about wallposts.

3/1. "Because I'm hunting by PoE, it makes it all the more important to ensure that any potential scumread has possible partners." =/= "Find Aneninen partners for me? He just ended a scumgame, PT shows high willingness to bus."

3/2. If you're talking about this game, you were cherry-picking as well. You've completely ignored the fact eg. that I was away from the Day1 scumlynch. In the PT, it was Rb who wanted to bus a lot, not me.

3/3. I don't think there has ever been a single game with players with no possible scum partners. (Minus PR-confirmed townies.)

4. If those who are scumreading you can find a possible partner for you, will that mean that their view of the gamestate is correct? Frankly, what you're saying is pigeon poop.

1. PoE scumhunting is a tool I use above literally anything else. You also underestimate the metareading I've been doing behind the scenes (just didn't present that, not really any point).
I didn't really have anything to say to you? You're pretty upfront. Nothing really unclear.
Don't think you're understanding my process, but "getting others to do so" was specifically "getting Creature to do so". I wanted to watch him be gamesolving-Creature, and also make sure that Aneninen-scum would still be consistent with the gamestate.

2. Okay. Is there something you'd like to talk about? I can't participate in the mutant conversation until I've done that metadive. Hell, without having done that, I'm not even sure this is the wagon I'm gonna end the day on. But votes create pressure and reactions.

3/1. I think you're picking apart what I'm saying for inconsistencies here. I wanted to see what kind of gamestate I was looking at in the world of Aneninen-scum. Also wanted to see Creature talk.

3/2. I didn't do any VCA on you that game, nor did I comb through your ISO. I read the mafia PT, and I ctrl+F'd some phrases to check for tells. Thanks for correcting me then.

3/3. See I just disagree with you on that. Sometimes "no possible partners" is exactly how I can tell when a wagon is shit. For example, Gamma-scum doesn't really make much sense with most of the playerlist. Call it an environmental read. The game hasn't progressed in a way I'd expect if Gamma were scum.

4. That's a different logical statement. I'm literally testing for argument by contradiction; I townhunt more than I scumhunt. If you have no possible partners, you're probably not scum, and thus anyone scumreading you has a flawed view of the gamestate. If you DO have possible partners, then it's POSSIBLE you're scum, and people scumreading you have a POSSIBLY correct view of the gamestate.

Like, you're going way out of your way to try to prove me voting you is disingenuous, when my process is basically "jump from wagon to wagon until I find enough town to solve the game".

Creature was a pseudo-wagon, cleared him. NSG wagon got reactions which may confirm her as town pending a thing happening. Gamma wagon gave us valuable VCA. All 3 are likely town. I guess I was part of the jmo-wagon (not really though) and I think his reaction to that early on was fairly town.

Luca-wagon picked up like no steam, neither did Anen-wagon. Reactions weren't exactly townclearing. Hence, scumreads.

[Mathdino]

*shrugs*
Maybe it's how I'm communicating it then. Works for me. If I know which wagons are bad, I can find which ones might not be.

Like if you're not a PoE townhunting type then obviously you're not gonna get it. I'm not finding scum by possible partners, I'm finding town by lack of possible partners.

I guess the more important question is:
What's my scum motivation in going through this process?

[Mathdino]

And I've got nothing other than telling you that I've gotten that same speech from at least one player in almost every game I play. UnaBombaH, Dunkerdoodles, etc.

Thing is, it's easy to fake that standard vanity scumread on me.
- My tone is manipulative (I'm manipulative as town)
- I try to control the game (what else is new)
- Twisting words (I interpret things the way I do, and given how much I talk, there's always some issue with those interpretations)

I don't think I've done the "guy that wants to hear from everyone" at all this game. I know whose reads I trust. Everyone else I'm kinda just watching and reacting.

Like, your argument (if that's the summarised version of your case) seems to basically be "Mathdino's scum motivation is doing all the things he'd do as town to gain control and look town, but his tone is scummy and not-genuine".

That's just not a good argument though, unless you think you can toneread me (and feel free to check my scumgames vs towngames; I believe I can be read off tone with meta familiarity), or unless you think I'm specifically pushing a scum agenda.

But from your POV, all I've really pushed that you "know" is anti-town is continually discrediting you. Which pisses you off, fine. But that raises all sorts of questions. Why start doing it when it was literally just in reaction to you going after jmo? Why half-ass a case on you? Why keep discrediting you when I'm not pushing you, and that would clearly taunt you into voting me?

Hence my dismissal of scumreads on me based on the idea that people scumreading me are either scum, or are being irrational for one reason or another.

[Mathdino]

You also have no direction - what have you done recently, apart from argue with me while I was trying to sort the game?

Given you adopted the role of 'town leader', you're pretty much doing f*ck all.

wowwww lol

I got Creature to talk enough to make him conftown (and gave him space so we knew he wasn't reacting to activity-telling).

I got reactions out of NSG that will definitely be alignment indicative when I get more meta on her (I've been scanning her recent SK game for differences, but I'm not going to start blabbing about that before I have something good).

I strongly believe I can read A50 and Paradox, and I'm to some extent blocking off lynches on them.

I pushed wagons on Creature, NSG, Gamma, and Anen, which gives us VCA and reactions.

And I guess I just know when to sheep sometimes.

(NGL trying to argue for my towniness by literally listing the cool things I've done is somewhat sickening, but you did ask)

It's like you expect something pretty as your touched up ISOs when, like I already said, I'm pretty shoot-from-the-hip, and when my reads are in transition, of course I'm gonna do a lot of stuff that doesn't really lead to a consistent view of the game.
It's not always obvious what I'm doing.

My goal is not to be townread by you or anyone else though.

My goal is to inflict as much damage to the scumteam as possible before I'm inevitably NK'd.

[Mathdino]

If you get in these 1v1's every game perhaps that says something about you?

Quite clearly you've been twisting my words - earlier you made out pretty much every post I made was 'victimisation', which is complete and utter bollocks. You strip away the context to make it suit your agenda.

It's not just about tone, as you well know. You have been misrepping me and twisting my words for most of the game, and since your 'gambits' you've done jack shit, despite posting a lot of words. You're just existing in the thread - you're not particularly pushing anything.

You want to discredit me presumably because I'm scumreading you, or perhaps just to look busy. You said how bad 1v1's are for town but you needlessly started another by discrediting and misrepping me yet again.

Appreciate the critique but every top poster gets in this shit. I get into it mostly from the players who are naturally paranoid of town leaderish types.

I stand by the idea that if you're scum, you were using AtE by continually framing yourself as someone not present and therefore undeserving of votes based on your first 2 or 3 posts. Seeing as how you defend yourself like this but you don't seem to give a shit about defending others in that way, it's just something that tends to come from scum. Hell, that was an NSG scumtell that I've been picking up going over her last game.

Re: "my agenda": I didn't HAVE an agenda at the time. I literally started saying shit like "Yeah Luca can be scum" and "there's prob scum in Luca/jmo" or "Luca feels predatory". You asked me to elaborate my read on you, and I did exactly that. You just didn't like it.

The majority of the players I have a good rapport with are basically not present most of the time. Jay, A50, NSG, Paradox, Creature. And A50, NSG, and Creature, the players I consider most sheepable, are especially practically not here. So yeah I'll check in and give updates, respond to people. I didn't like how you were analysing NSG's ISO and I felt that was representative of your trajectory this game. I didn't jump on that because I'm scumreading you at all. The idea that I discredit people BECAUSE they're scumreading me is ridiculous, because everyone this game has scumread me AFTER I discredited them.

This 1v1 starting again is not on me. You and Aneninen have successfully turned "Mathdino softpushes 2 people and points out shit he doesn't like" into "Aneninen and Luca thoroughly attack Mathdino for twisting words and being controlling". Everyone loses when they're on the defencive.

"

Why start doing it when it was literally just in reaction to you going after jmo? Why half-ass a case on you? Why keep discrediting you when I'm not pushing you, and that would clearly taunt you into voting me?

"

And you asked me what the scum motivation for this is, but I don't really see the town motivation to be honest?

Reacting to you going after jmo was to discredit the jmo wagon (I was townreading him but I couldn't really say so) and try to start some analysis on you. IIRC I was the first to really look into your behaviour.

Half-assing a case on you was literally because you asked at a time that I didn't really want to.

Discrediting you this time was because of the bad NSG ISO posts. Again, had nothing to do with me. I call bad reads/bad reasons when I see them, because I have an interest in controlling the narrative by culling the chaff in discussions.

Like, at a certain point you have to realise that you're not only insanely predictable this game, but I should also be fairly aware of that predictability. You pull the same speeches on me whenever I go find some posts in your ISO I don't like. You criticise me, I criticise you, you drop everything you're doing to vote and push me. I would point out that you don't seem to really real-time interact with other people's bad reads on other players that much. You're hilariously distractable just by someone saying your post is bad.

So what the fuck am I doing going at it again here?

[Mathdino]

Meh while creature isn't obvtown the NSG push is a legit thing he did. What's this "VCA" you say you got Mathdino and can we see it or are you just making up bullshit?

Your wagon went up too fast and with too little opposition.

The primary opposition to your wagon was from people I'm strongly townreading.

Therefore you're not only town, but your wagon was likely scum-motivated rather than a case of town implosion. It was intended to be today's lynch wagon.

That's a general feelsy interpretation. The mod wasn't around to give an updated vote count when you were at L-1, but around the end of the day (and beginning of tomorrow) I'll have enough data to come to conclusions on players common between wagons, etc etc.

[Mathdino]

1. Right, so you're taking credit for Creature talking lol. I was under the impression if he's town then that would happen naturally anyway?

2. If you mean by your gambits - they were so bad you couldn't read much from her reaction to them.

3. Blocking lynches on A50 and Paradox? When has anyone tried to lynch them?

4. You didn't really '

push

' anything - you simply wagon-hopped. This doesn't qualify as scumhunting or 'townhunting'.

5. You're not inflicting any damage on anyone, and your last part is just LAMIST.

Hoooooly shit.

You literally ask me what I've done to help town, I list the things I think have helped town.

OF FUCKING COURSE IT ALL SOUNDS LIKE LAMIST "TAKING CREDIT" BULLSHIT. WHAT DID YOU EXPECT?

Why are you asking me these questions at all? What do you hope to gain? And is there really anything I'm going to say here that would be alignment indicative?

That fucking applies to 80% of the questions you've asked over the entire game. Like, I have to weed through your ISOs of people and THEN I have to weed through people responding to dumb questions when 90% of those responses are also NAI.

[Mathdino]

All Math has done since the gambit is:

Argue with me
Vote me without any sort of push
Post one vague readslist
Post a slightly less vague readslist
Vote Anen without questioning or pushing him at all
Argue with me some more

I don't play like you do.

I'm arguing with you because I think your views on the gamestate are wrong and I don't want them propagating.

I was asked for a reads list, I already said I was still working on sorting a bunch people.

I don't know what the fuck questions you want me to Aneninen that would actually help with this. My best tool in getting reactions is my vote.
Like I COULD go through his ISO and find every piece of logic I find bad (and god help me there is so much of it), but what purpose would that serve other than saying WOW ANEN IS PUSHING A SCUM NARRATIVE BECAUSE HE IS INCONSISTENT AND HIS LOGIC IS BAD.
THAT is what I mean by predatory questioning. I'm not going to do that. Unfair trials only serve to enhance my own tunnel.

[Mathdino]

dude you 100% started this one

Judging people's alignment based on possible partners is a terrible way to play, particularly on D1. Basically any decent scum player is going to slip through your grasp using that method.

You accuse my method of attaining reads of being unfounded, but yours seems absurd to me.

*shrugs*
Maybe it's how I'm communicating it then. Works for me. If I know which wagons are bad, I can find which ones might not be.

Like if you're not a PoE townhunting type then obviously you're not gonna get it. I'm not finding scum by possible partners, I'm finding town by lack of possible partners.

I guess the more important question is:
What's my scum motivation in going through this process?

I use PoE as well, but I don't clear players for having no possible partners unless there's real concrete evidence to do so. I just played a game where scum bussed so convincingly D1, no-one would have guessed who the partner was if they weren't watched making the kill.

The scum motivation is obviously to convince people you're genuinely scumhunting, or 'townhunting' as you say. You might really adopt this method, I don't know, but I'm scumreading you regardless. Tbh pretty much from the start of the game, even when I was doing my first skim-through, your tone pinged me and I felt you were trying to powerwolf proceedings. I don't like how you try to dictate where discussion goes, while maintaining the facade of being the 'pro-town' player who wants to hear from everyone. I don't like how you continually twist the words of people who oppose you. I don't believe you're being genuine at all - you hid most of the game behind ill-conceived gambits, meaning your inconsistencies couldn't be held against you. I just think you're scum.

You also have no direction - what have you done recently, apart from argue with me while I was trying to sort the game?

Given you adopted the role of 'town leader', you're pretty much doing f*ck all.

[Mathdino]

Do you see any town benefit from this interaction continuing, or can we end this?

[Mathdino]

Why are you asking me these questions at all? What do you hope to gain? And is there really anything I'm going to say here that would be alignment indicative?

This was in response to stuff from this page. You also clearly started questioning me in 947.

I don't recall otherwise claiming that you're questioning me?

[Mathdino]

Judging people's alignment based on possible partners is a terrible way to play, particularly on D1. Basically any decent scum player is going to slip through your grasp using that method.

You accuse my method of attaining reads of being unfounded, but yours seems absurd to me.

dude how is this not going to start an argument

you had just called for votes on me and then backed it up by calling my methods absurd

[Mathdino]

i also want to point out that the only people who have been around in the past 24 hours or so are you, aneninen, and gamma
all of whom are players i've clearly pissed off in some way
and are also people that are essentially in my "would be somewhat okay with lynching" pool

then there's NSG, who i wish was around more
but you tied up all her time with yet another pointless 1v1

so wtf do you expect me to be doing in the meantime

[Mathdino]

Now doesn't feel like the right time to go through people's ISOs and reevaluate.

Last time I did that, I ended up on Gamma. End result was fine but the read was faulty.

Ok Dino, I got a question for you: what if people like Jay, A50, and Creature (not including Paradox as I really believe he's town, NSG neither because you are haven't completed your read on her) knows that you do the dirty work as town and they are letting you do your thing while they sit back and watch the world burn? Have you ever thought about this possibility?

I do believe you're town, but not doing town a favor by giving possible scum so much credit and letting them stay away from the game.

Jay knows that, that was his scum strategy last time. Jay can always be scum.

Creature is locktown. You're gonna have to take me and others at our word on this.

A50 I guess could do that, but I'd run into his scumpartners eventually. Plus I'm basically sheeping him on this Anen wagon. Plus I already think he's town.

I understand your argument as basically "I'm accidentally helping scum wincon". Under what scenarios am I helping the scumteam then?

[Mathdino]

Anyone who takes stock in metareading creature has him as locktown
Gamma I believe
A50 by virtue of sharing a wagon
NSG should be locktowning him if she isn't

Look ill somewhat consider A50 scum but I'm really not considering Creature scum at this point
It's just more helpful to have other discussions and sort other players

Also i have reason to believe that talking about creature actually hurts the prospect of reading him