Large Normal 241: Random Pictures and Other Stuff | Endgame

[Thestatusquo]

like idk what your point even is, i dunno why i would put more effort into reading than into writing as scum, obviously that's not going to get me anywhere lol

but whatever ik i probably have to die here at some point so its fine, i just want to try to figure out who i think scum is before that happens

I don't think you actually did a reread.

[Thestatusquo]

Like maybe you glanced through briefly but i just fundamentally don't think that you posted is what it looks like when someone is reading 60 pages of a game.

[Thestatusquo]

nero how serious are you in thinking i'm scum and do you plan to do something about it

alternatively what do you plan to do today in general

not very serious but the idea of a Ausuka/Dats kinda clicked into my head and I kinda like it. I'll prob talk about it a little later.

I plan on watching movies today b/c lots of stuff is expiring today. I had a sorta rough day on Wednesday so I was hoping that TSQ would post why he think I'm scum b/c I need a good laugh.

I already did. I don't think you've done anything pro town in 2 game days. In particular I don't like how you've been angling the town to consider only a few options each day and I don't like the way you tried to discourage anyone from thinking about anything other than SS vs Mena. I think you faded into the background after getting town read. I think your push on me feels really fake in retrospect and is the exact kind of hook I try to find when scum to seem extremely engaged by pushing something concrete even though most people you claimed to be townreading disagreed with you about both of your farcical points.

I would have to reread but I don't recall your interactions with gamma or VPB being super great either.

[Thestatusquo]

I thought S_S was most likely town and I guess I think mena is most likely town too so I have a big side eye to the people who seemed pretty locked in on their eliminations being inevitable and discouraging people from thinking outside of those two. Which I think you were a big part of.

[Thestatusquo]

More to the point I don't think Nero has managed to do anything I'd remotely call solving in the last two days once it became clear his push on me for absolute garbage wasn't going to work.

[Thestatusquo]

For the love of god Nero stop talking about the reads of someone who died 3 days ago that had one right scum read (VPB) two people in the scum reads who have flipped town (firebringer and conman) and one person listed as "townie" flip scum and try actually playing the game.

Or is that hard for you because you know who the scum is?

[Thestatusquo]

Is it your own reading comprehension thats lacking? My comment is saying you haven't been doing anything since its clear that wasn't going to work.

My claim wasn't that you're still pushing me, its that you ain't pushing anything but a chainsaw.

[Thestatusquo]

Also I'm going to have a real fun time going through this thread post game and reporting every single post where you personally insulted me for NO fucking reason.

[Thestatusquo]

Who are the scum in this game, nero?

Let's get beyond you popping in every few pages saying "I still think its possible TSQ was bussing" at random and adding nothing else.

[Thestatusquo]

VOTE: Nero

[Thestatusquo]

The only time I insulted you personally was when you asked me if I had been abused as a child.

[Thestatusquo]

So what have you been saying? Answer the question. Who are the scum, nero?

[Thestatusquo]

Dude Shea you have yet to vote out any scum, you're getting carried right now.

Youre joking right? I pushed gamma ALL day until you stole the fucking hammer from me after I claimed intent when I unvoted to not let enchant hammer at random.

[Thestatusquo]

im not really sure

No one is sure, buddy, that's how the game is played.

So who are the scum?

[Thestatusquo]

lol

(i mean technically he was right about Gamma but you stole the hammer and through a fit wich I thought was super funny.)

roughly 20 more words here than you have to say about the alignment of anyone in this game when I asked you.

[Thestatusquo]

Someone give me 1 concrete reason why nero cain is town other than "idk I town read him on day 1"

[Thestatusquo]

I am still having a hard time seeing his interactions with Gamma as s/s honestly

I think doing things like this is kind of in his town meta, in the last time we played together he started pushing me when I was fairly universally townread and kept doing it throughout the rest of the game and he was town

does that necessarily mean its not in his scum meta?

[Thestatusquo]

I am still having a hard time seeing his interactions with Gamma as s/s honestly

I think doing things like this is kind of in his town meta, in the last time we played together he started pushing me when I was fairly universally townread and kept doing it throughout the rest of the game and he was town

does that necessarily mean its not in his scum meta?

i mean not especially but i don't think he's being like that scummy with stuff

Did you post those somewhere? Or do I need to dig.

[Thestatusquo]

Oh sorry, i meant the gamma-nero interactions.

[Thestatusquo]

You think because it's emotionally charged it can't be svs or is there some other reason

[Thestatusquo]

Honestly taking down the whole site is a hell of an overreaction to my reads, Datisi.

[Thestatusquo]

Oh, I think fb ~generally~ when scum = having more fun, seems like is enjoying game etc. This is amplified imo if it’s people he likes playing with, and I think there’s enough old hands here who I’m p sure he gets along decently with (like sure there’s no MariaR or RC who I remember him particularly liking) but I would expect him to be an order of magnitude more excited if he were scum in what, to him, would be a good PL

This is wonky to me though. Do you have reason to believe FB doesn't have fun when he's town?

Like I buy that FB generally likes playing scum and can have fun with it, but I don't see why any of this reasoning wouldn't apply to him as town either? So if his lack of enthusiasm isn't scum-indicative, I don't think it's necessarily town-indicative either, unless you have an understanding that FB doesn't like playing town. Which doesn't really vibe with my prior experience with him

Firebringer does not like playing as town but will sometimes tolerate it for the sake of playing with people he likes

This is markedly different from firebringer having actual fun

I couldn’t be bothered to quote the actual post I wanted to reply to but this is why my read on S_S!slot just = good not implausibly good, whereas all y’all just suck at reading woofbringer apparently

I will continue to push back on this meta every time I see it.

Firebringer prefers playing scum. But I've seen him play town perfectly happily plenty of times.

He's a good player and quite simply does not have this much disconnect in his game.

[Thestatusquo]

GuiltyLion I feel like I don't really have a good sense of who you want to lim.

Other than like, you seem to want to flip mena generally speaking.

[Thestatusquo]

Not sure if that's because you haven't said much about it or because the game was paused while the site was dead and everything fell out of my head.

[Thestatusquo]

So Nero you think Cat scratch fever is like an odd even night SK or something?

[Thestatusquo]

Oh your read list is going in the opposite direction of literally anyone elses read list ever. Got it.

[Thestatusquo]

I've played busses exactly like that before.

[Thestatusquo]

Not to say that you're not right that on the balance its probably more likely to come from unaligned than aligned, but I wouldn't discount the possibility entirely.

[Thestatusquo]

So are you not willing to full claim today?

[Thestatusquo]

I'm not role fishing. I'm explicitly asking you twit.

[Thestatusquo]

Because I expect you to die and I want all the information available before that happens.

[Thestatusquo]

meh. i'm just a mason. i think scum have likely figured this out by now so might as well not be secretive about it. i was ambiguous in an attempt to potentially draw a roleblock or NK but then of course both vigs ended up outing. sorry for any confusion caused by this.

So there is no clear on datisi?

[Thestatusquo]

Ah yes, I outed the other mason which was a *checks notes* claimed investigative role.

You are just so fucking thick dude.

[Thestatusquo]

I repeat:

So there is no clear on datisi?

[Thestatusquo]

God I just hate you so much.

[Thestatusquo]

I repeat:

So there is no clear on datisi?

there *obviously* is, i wouldn't gambit a play like that

i just wanted to avoid the possibility of him getting vigged because ausuka was tunneling him

So you're saying that datisi is your mason partner and not the flipped mason?

[Thestatusquo]

I repeat:

So there is no clear on datisi?

he's a mason so ofc not, and you are calling me thick.

Shut the FUCK up and let me play the FUCKING game please.

[Thestatusquo]

Why is everyone just ignoring that we have a flipped mason. Who I was assuming (and so were you) was scampers partner.

[Thestatusquo]

I think its possible, yes.

[Thestatusquo]

given how little you paid attention to the game.

[Thestatusquo]

I thought you were making a claim to be aligned with the mason that was flipped because thats what your role was.

Thats why I asked you twice that there was no clear on datisi.

What I think is plausible is a mason claim with datisi with you both as scum.

I'm not sure how likely I think it is but it's nearly as impossible as you're trying to make it sound.

[Thestatusquo]

I thought anything but mason pair was non-normal?

[Thestatusquo]

The existence of mason trios did not even occur to me. I was certain that the role was defined as groups of two for the purposes of being normal.

The wiki tells me I am wrong.

[Thestatusquo]

*exhale*

[Thestatusquo]

This just seems like such a bus to me.

[Thestatusquo]

Sigh. I suck at this.

[Thestatusquo]

This

[Thestatusquo]

Its like he saw it was MT who replaced in, knew that MT doesn't try very hard as a scum replace in and decided ok time to go gamma even though all the information that he is talking about had been available previously.

[Thestatusquo]

Hey titus.

Its nice to have someone in the slot who I can have a conversation with without being insulted every 10 seconds. <3

[Thestatusquo]

I still think this is bullshit somewhere so I need to do VCA four fucking times.

I'm pretty sure this is just a solved game. Is there any VCA related reason to doubt Menalque + fire?

The fact that you've said this so many times with different people is so very frustrating.

[Thestatusquo]

Have you ever heard the story of the frog who croaked wolf?

[Thestatusquo]

Also I spaced out here. Is there actually a vig counter claim happening right now?

[Thestatusquo]

I have not been following this game that much, the crash kind of knocked me out of rhythm.

Why am I scum this time?

[Thestatusquo]

Looks like VCA.

Honestly it would be super cool to be flipped for VCA yet again showcasing how its a garbage way of finding scum.

Also I will be extremely VLA this weekend as I decided to YOLO fly to NYC to catch the mets playoff series.

[Thestatusquo]

I have not been following this game that much, the crash kind of knocked me out of rhythm.

Why am I scum this time?

Because my sick brain says so.

What's the last thing you remember?

Me asking you if you were counter claiming CSF.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't really buy that you haven't realized what's going on re: CSF

I have not read the last few pages but my recollection was that Datisi told Titus what was going on she accused him of punking her, I asked if she was counterclaiming CSF, you said she wasn't and then I haven't really read the thread since then besides seeing my name when I opened the thread.

If you think theres something going on with CSF that I would be faking knowing for some reason I am all ears to know what that would be.

I have multiple times this game stated that I was suspicious of CSF and had to be reminded (usually by you) that they were likely conf town so I'm super interested in anything that might allow them to be scum because I think the slot has done fuck all that's pro town.

On the other hand I was starting to have a pretty strong scum read on nero so titus coming in and claiming something like that would be hard for me to parse though I'm not sure how much I was just starting to scum read nero because I was so fucking annoyed with him.

[Thestatusquo]

like even just glancing at the last page should bring up some questions

it reads like you're playing dumb

I don't really play dumb as either alignment, really.

If I'm being dumb its because I'm dumb.

[Thestatusquo]

This push feels bad. I don't understand why dann could possibly think I would think it would be advantageous to me as scum to not know like...whatever it is that he's talking about.

[Thestatusquo]

*initiates desperate scum spew for the 100th time this game*

Oh wait sorry I thought I was Shea for a second.

Your cognitive dissonance when i am eventually flipped green is going to be the stuff of legends

[Thestatusquo]

CSF claimed not actually a vig

there has been some suspicion on you because you forgot that before and I feel like it's more likely for a scum partner to forget her claim than a townie to forget that

Titus has softed that she is actually the vig

I felt like your reaction to seeing votes on CSF on the previous page would've been different but maybe you just didn't see that at all

I would love to vote csf.

[Thestatusquo]

Idk the analysis that this would make me buddies seems pretty surface level because it seems to forget almost willfully that every time i forgot it was in the context of wanting to Lim them.

[Thestatusquo]

like even just glancing at the last page should bring up some questions

it reads like you're playing dumb

I don't really play dumb as either alignment, really.

If I'm being dumb its because I'm dumb.

Good thing I created this handy visual for you:

Cat Burglar Aligned:

Now we can draw the "fe-line" on your dumb telling. There is no more excuse: we've caught you red-"pawed."

Can you like... Stop?

[Thestatusquo]

go for it

Can you quote the post where they claim not vig please? I'm legitimately trying to get information here and this is starting to annoy me.

I'm on mobile and not able to scan the thread very effectively

[Thestatusquo]

Idk the analysis that this would make me buddies seems pretty surface level because it seems to forget almost willfully that every time i forgot it was in the context of wanting to Lim them.

I'd want to eliminate my buddy too if they were on borrowed time anyway and doing fuck all

So your claim is that i hard bussed my one buddy. While opposing the Lim of the townie y'all ran up yesterday while forgetting my other buddies claim so i could Lim them too.

Interesting theory my guy.

[Thestatusquo]

VOTE: csf

[Thestatusquo]

At some point me continually wanting to Lim scum and not town will succeed in making people think I'm town but I'm still down to just flip because honestly it's getting ridiculous.

[Thestatusquo]

Idk the analysis that this would make me buddies seems pretty surface level because it seems to forget almost willfully that every time i forgot it was in the context of wanting to Lim them.

fwiw i don't think this is like, insanely Better

because if you're scum, you knew she was on borrowed time anyway, so naturally you'd want to make it very well known that yes, you think she's scummy

while a townie would probably more likely go "ok vig town bye"

So my plan is just to Lim all my buddies in a game where like 3-4 people are constantly suggesting I'm scum? In what fucking world would i be the deep wolf here. It's legitimately insulting you think i would play like that as scum since there is no point this whole game where i thought i was likely to end game and i don't believe you thought i was likely to end game either.

[Thestatusquo]

Well i hope you'll reevaluate that psycho analysis when i eventually flip this game or you're scum. Because that is what happened.

At least i have some faith you actually will post game unlike some other people here

[Thestatusquo]

@gl

[Thestatusquo]

gamma was not supposed to flip immediately

hem was not supposed to flip imemdiately

after his claim, that slot was dead sooner or later

i don't think the worldview i'm proposing is nearly as outlandish as you're making it out to be - positioning yourself around your partners isn't the same as actually getting them killed

I just strongly disagree with your assessment of my position on gamma.

They were my strongest scum read the whole day and I continually kept bringing them up and I meta dived them in 3 different games to argue that they're scum.

That's not a light bus.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't really have a big meta of being a bus heavy player either but I know self meta is useless in this regard.

[Thestatusquo]

I mean titus shooting me tonight is still probably the best thing for this game state.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm also confused as to why nero didn't counter or shoot CSF.

I need to look at his reaction again when I get to a computer.

[Thestatusquo]

I have been pretty clear how I feel this game and I'm too tired to do that song and dance again. After we kill another one of the people I've felt was scummy all game and they flip and people somehow find stupid reasons to scum read me for it, they can do their own work in my iso.

[Thestatusquo]

Shrug. If I'm being honest with you I'm really done with this game. All I've done the whole game is push scum and defend town and yet people keep coming up with reasons to scum read me for it so, like I said. My thoughts are out there if you care. I'll be happy to join the dead thread.

[Thestatusquo]

I think if all the information I have on you is accurate the scum team is likely

CSF + 2 of, in order of least likely to be scum to most likely to be scum:


Dannflor
GuiltyLion
Frogsterking
DeasVail
fireisredsir
Mena

[Thestatusquo]

I'm a little worried about CSF actually being a vanilla townie who got caught in a gambit but only because I'm not sure what would be a better play in her position 1v1 you or claim townie. Both seem like suicide so I have no idea and the whole HEM + Nero + CSF + you thing is so weird that I'm uncomfortable with drawing strong conclusions on it.

One of you has to be responsible for the kill, though.

[Thestatusquo]

I do think there's like a weird possibility of some sort of gated SK which would be you because it explains why nero wouldn't have countered or shot the fake claim, maybe?

But thats tinfoil hat time.

[Thestatusquo]

[Thestatusquo]

I mean obviously my preference would be to remain alive and finding scum but I'm so sick of being scum read while I'm doing it. So its more like...It would be nice to stop fighting.

[Thestatusquo]

Bussing reminds me of like sacrifice bunting in baseball.

Generally a bad idea that lowers your expecting value.

[Thestatusquo]

So do we have a lim?

Modddd?

[Thestatusquo]

Please sign up for my mini normal!!

is the player list cool

[Thestatusquo]

I think I just hammered it.

[Thestatusquo]

Can we have a little flip. To celebrate DVs scumday?

[Thestatusquo]

Oh another thing, pretty sure it should be obvious that I'm not aligned with scum HEM either but I'm sure someone will come along and be like actually it were clearly the scummiest buddies that ever scummed. So yeah. This is that i think about at 3 am when i have insomnia.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm VLA until tomorrow afternoon. I'll read the thread then.

[Thestatusquo]

Also just a reminder I have had strong scum reads on all of the flipped scum this game at various points of this game. I'm fine getting flipped still since I think we're in a winning position but I still think scum reads on me are shit tunnels. Shrug.

[Thestatusquo]

I haven't read anything and I just got home but I'm VT.

[Thestatusquo]

I have sent in the following actions to T3 but each one has been rudely ignored:

Kill Fireisred
RB fireisred
Gunsmith check Mena.

[Thestatusquo]

If I were the maybe last scum and I was killing a mason I sure would pick the one that was town reading me and not the one who has said I'm scummy literally every possible turn of this game.

[Thestatusquo]

wait are you saying all those claims were lies

[Thestatusquo]

Fuck.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't really think frog is scum.

He's in any reasonable PoE but I dont understand why we're looking at him over fireisredsir and dv.

I kind of think dann is town but he hasn't really done anything recently and GL is pretty absent too.

[Thestatusquo]

I haven't read a ton because I wasn't really following the thread while away, but I'll look at it.

[Thestatusquo]

I assume you're referring to 8048.

Yeah, I agree with those points.

[Thestatusquo]

I also see Frog and obscure being pally, kinda makes me think I’m onto something
VOTE: Frogsterking
I’ll go here first because I think there’s better traction here

I guess if I'm thinking logically this post never gets made about two scum partners

Gamma does like to bus but it seems way more likely that this was made to anti-associate from obscure by calling him pally with a townie

I continue to think fireisred is scum.

[Thestatusquo]

Ausuka
Dannflor
fireisredsir
GuiltyLion

Ausuka hasn't really been doing much at all the last few game phases and it makes me feel like I need to reconsider her slot.

Dann keeps popping in every now and then and making posts like 8131 which don't feel like scum posts to me.

Fireisred I've just thought was scum basically the whole game.

I feel like guiltylion is capable of playing this game as scum and I need to go look at interactions more.

[Thestatusquo]

The points that Datisi makes about GL and Ausuka in that post are also good.

[Thestatusquo]

VOTE: Fireisredsir

Alright. Times up, lets do this.

[Thestatusquo]

We're on guiltylion.

[Thestatusquo]

i think last scum is in shea/frogs, but i also think there exists the world where they're both town and it's fire. which means... rereading fire's cases on d4, taking a quick skim of invictus...

shea, i know you've been thinking fire is scum for a while now, but i don't think you've ever laid out why, exactly? can you do that if you didn't, point to me where you did if you did, and explain how that read was evolving with the flips we have right now?

No, I can't do that. I mean, I could go look for stuff that would make me feel better about my world view and present it as if its what made me think fire was scum in the first place, but that would be a lie because it has and always will be a feel read.

I'm not sure how willing I am to EfFoRt to try to dig up evidence that supports that because I don't feel like it matters and when I flip people will likely be looking into fire pretty heavily anyway.

[Thestatusquo]

i think last scum is in shea/frogs, but i also think there exists the world where they're both town and it's fire. which means... rereading fire's cases on d4, taking a quick skim of invictus...

shea, i know you've been thinking fire is scum for a while now, but i don't think you've ever laid out why, exactly? can you do that if you didn't, point to me where you did if you did, and explain how that read was evolving with the flips we have right now?

I know that convincing you that frogster is town will likely cause you to vote me but what do you think about dannflors point about frogster-gamma-obscure?

I felt pretty convinced by it, personally.

[Thestatusquo]

I really don't think it's Frogster anymore.

I don't think Shea is playing to endgame.

Fire is. Too many reflective step backs my guy

my annoyance is because both shea and frogs feel so fucking scummy!!! but i've been vague thinking about this game and it's like, the more they feel like silly townies doing silly things

i can hear scamper yelling at me as i type that

I know that convincing you that frogster is town will likely cause you to vote me but what do you think about dannflors point about frogster-gamma-obscure?

we actually did comment on that post during our reread

it's like, i agree that post is indicative of them both not being partners, but it's like, just one post, in a game where we know gamma-scum made some effort to distance (eg hem)

Have you considered that you're wrong about me feeling scummy?

[Thestatusquo]

Also please stop insulting me.

[Thestatusquo]

In a world where I am town and fire is scum I have been right about my three primary scum reads in gamma, obscure, fireisred.

Please give me just the fucking most tiny modicum of credit.

[Thestatusquo]

It was mostly the comparison to frogster that annoyed me, to be fair.

[Thestatusquo]

if y'all don't ever flip frog this game i will be big mad

we should never have lost the go game

Why is frog scum

[Thestatusquo]

I also think Shea would play it a lot cooler in terms of his "good reads" as scum

I know at first with the Gamma flip I was a little leery and thought it was like, scum who was mad about not getting bus credit

but I think after a certain point scum is way more conscious about that and wants to wait for people to give them credit. town has a certain pride in their reads that scum does not have, scum just wanna get town read.

I think most people know that saying oh look how good my reads were over and over doesn't actually get you town read

I'm curious why the CSF thing isn't playing more into your analysis. It seemed like a big part of what you were pushing yesterday and it seems to have dropped away completely. Why is that?

[Thestatusquo]

i just feel like everyone is bringing up points that we've already talked about and idk im tired

Is there any particularly reason why we shouldn't yeet you if the pool is me you frog?

[Thestatusquo]

I need you to be my friend because you seem cool.

[Thestatusquo]

i actually sat down, and with a lot of breaks and distractions, read frogs's scum iso in large 238

and it is like

very different than his play here

*headdesk*

I did this day 2. That was the whole basis for my town read on frog.

[Thestatusquo]

I need you to be my friend because you seem cool.

ok we're friends now

hell yeah

[Thestatusquo]

anyway would love to have it explained why town frog suddenly flips on MT and mena when they replace in after previously townreading both slots and pushing back against suspicion there

like literally get scamper back in here

it's not about what his scum plan is. sometimes scum do things just for the sake of being unpredictable. sometimes it's hard to understand their motivations

what matters is whether the actions make sense from a town mindset

they don't

I don't believe this is a real thing you think.

Frogs reads and interactions with literally everyone in this game can be defined by rapid fire shifts and switches for basically no reason and logic that can be charitably described as stretched.

That's basically his whole game play. He went from saying I was lock scum to saying I was town to 5 pages later saying I was lock scum again day 2.

I do not believe you wouldn't think about this in a fair analysis of frogs play.

[Thestatusquo]

i mean my reads aren't great either but i do not think thats at all a valid reason to clear someone especially when that someone is frog

you don't think "he rapid fire shifts reads on everyone" is a reason to be skeptical of "he rapid fire shifted his reads on x and y" as a reason to scum read him?

Why? Feel like he did it in the town game I read too. I dont remember if he did it as much in the scum game but maybe I should check.

[Thestatusquo]

Oh no my ego.

[Thestatusquo]

im not sure how important this is but like

could mena claiming vt in response to scamper imply the last scum role is some sort of information role?

especially given the ydrasse kill.

also i haven't cleared frog? i just don't think it's frog. ribbit.

I guess is that more likely than just that's the baseline claim.

[Thestatusquo]

I do think scum likely have some power given town power level though. Or there's two.

[Thestatusquo]

i think menalque distancing from fire but not like really seeming to try and push their lim through? looks kinda partnery

I'm not sure what I would expect scum!mena to do in that game state so I'm not like super sure if this is actually a point for or against fire being scum.

I guess maybe they didn't think the game state was that dire? But it seems like it maybe had to be viewed as dire if mena knew that CSF was on borrowed time.

[Thestatusquo]

i think menalque distancing from fire but not like really seeming to try and push their lim through? looks kinda partnery

I'm not sure what I would expect scum!mena to do in that game state so I'm not like super sure if this is actually a point for or against fire being scum.

I guess maybe they didn't think the game state was that dire? But it seems like it maybe had to be viewed as dire if mena knew that CSF was on borrowed time.

I mean I see your point? Mena hasn't played mafia for a while and we don't know who the last scum is (I know you said that there might be 2 scum left but I don't really agree?) so like, it's difficult to understand his mindset that well but like

My general opinion is that scum instinctively like to push their partners. And like, the way mena has fire as scum and never really pushes them feels kinda weird. And I think it makes sense if the reason mena didn't really push fire very much is because he didn't, like, want to rock the boat too hard and wanted to get his town scumreads to die?

(although to be fair reading his iso again mena didn't really do much pushing of anyone >.>)

I agree its kind of unlikely that theres two scum necessarily, mostly because of how I'm feeling about the people in the game and their relative likeliness of being scum, the point I was making with that was simply that I don't think two town vigs + universal backup + 3 person mason group comports with scum having 5 goons. So either the last scum has some good power or there's two.

I could just be talking about my ass and that could be perfectly balanced as is with 5 goons but my intuition is that the scum team is a little light in that world?

[Thestatusquo]

I balance my games by just throwing them at jingle and having him tell me if its good so maybe I'm less up on conventional wisdom re: balance than I should be.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't think that follows at all?

[Thestatusquo]

Ok so in that world Deas is just off vanity voting his scum buddy then?

[Thestatusquo]

Ok, but why is that the case? Again, we have 2 of 2 of the known scum voters off deas? Clearly the scum AREN'T actively counterwagoning.

[Thestatusquo]

Ok so in that world Deas is just off vanity voting his scum buddy then?

i mean to be fair gamma is just off vanity voting his scum buddy lole

Yeah but gamma is not, in this hypothetical, a counter wagon to his other scumbuddy.

[Thestatusquo]

But this is the problem with VCA analysis like this. Scum can and will be voting anywhere on and off these wagons.

[Thestatusquo]

In fact, fires insistence that there has to be a scum on that wagon reads a little bit like TMI to me.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't think that's the implications of that point?

Am I just dumb? It is 3 am and I am not understanding a damn word you're saying?

[Thestatusquo]

I'm going to bed now. Clearly my brain is not functioning.

[Thestatusquo]

I have no response to that really, which is a huge part of why I hate VCA.

Its all subjective because scum can and do anything. For instance in the previous vc there are 4 scum voting in random places. They then move onto other wagons with only gamma joining the ostensible "counter."

If scum were trying to counter wagon the irrel wagon they weren't trying very hard.

[Thestatusquo]

I mean, scum!fire has to eliminate x number of townies

say he eliminates town!frogster and like town!shea

he is forced to start scum reading you again anyway and now he already has the groundwork laid. I think it's much easier as scum in this position to not be trying to push multiple things at once and frogster is probably the perceived easiest miselimination (in a scum!fire world)

Like I will often backtrack a lot as scum even when I know I'm gonna have to come back around to a scum read again because

a. it gets you town read
b. you don't actually have to push there until you need it to be dead

This might be on the nose but dannflor how do you think this description lines up with how you've been playing today?

I'm having a hard time deciding whether you feel like you're town actually trying to weigh pros and cons of various people or if you're scum keeping your options open because you know you need to come back to x miselims this game and I was having a hard time putting my finger on it until, ironically, you made these posts.

[Thestatusquo]

What does that even mean

[Thestatusquo]

Ok but do you think it would be fair of me to say that those posts describing how you would play in this situation as scum sound an awful lot like how you're playing here?

[Thestatusquo]

What does that even mean

It's a pretty straightforward question.

It's not. I don't know what a mega athlete is.

[Thestatusquo]

sure

that was me arguing against a town read, not arguing for a scum read

I wouldn't trust a town read on me on the basis of "he can't make up his mind"

I guess my issue is that I don't really see you having any preferences really besides fire. But you sure keep coming up with vague reasons people you're town reading could possibly be scum that you might be able to come back to later, but you don't actually seem that invested in them being scum.

How convinced are you that fireisred is scum and why?

[Thestatusquo]

I don't have very many athletic pursuits. I did when I was younger. I'm in a bowling league but I'm pretty bad.

I don't really play video games either.

[Thestatusquo]

It kind of just sounds like you're asking if I'm very competitive and the answer to that is yes?

[Thestatusquo]

As always though I'm less confused about what you're asking (although this time I was confused by what you were asking) and more confused by its relevance to anything.

[Thestatusquo]

When have you seen me play scum before?

[Thestatusquo]

When have you seen me play scum before?

team mafia

I wasn't in your game but I was on Pine's team

the game was kind of a clusterfuck

I feel like I can't be judged by anything I did while having to listen to flavor leaf all the damn time.

[Thestatusquo]

I mean the context of that post is that she was scum reading me and marci because we were pressuring her iirc. I don't remember if that's the same reason for HEM, maybe it was. Did they have a spat at some point too?

Obscure just seems thrown in there for funsies.

[Thestatusquo]

Presented without comment

HEM what are your thoughts on me rn?

i do like the overlap in townreads that most of the people i townread have

maybe willing to just trust scamper's gamma read

definitely willing to find two ish people that are consensus scumread by the towncore and wagon em up and get things moving

frogster seems to be doing good work and being protown. tbh i live in fear that the other shoe will drop at any moment but i do think he's probably town here and i like the approach he's taking so far

What are your own thoughts on me?

[Thestatusquo]

what about me makes you think i have a chip on my shoulder
what about my handling of her makes it not look right

I think you’re salty about last game and want to exact vengeance upon the one that sniffed you out, or at the very least you’re scared of a repeat

this feels wild enough to be +town ?

this is valid
Ausuka actually has the context for why I thought this

Ok so my reads list is something like

{Irrelephant, Marci, Nero, scamper, Ydrasse}
{Aristeia, Gamma, Guiltylion, humaneatingmoney, obscure, xofelf}
{Deasvail, Firebringer, Froggy}
{Datisi, fireisredsir}
{ConManMick, Dannsflor, VP Baltar}

Ftr I am starting to reconsider Datisi because even though I think he's been scummy I suck hard at reading him and I don't think he's doing much in the pursuit of like being Super Town and positioning himself for endgame? Does that makes sense??

Also these reads are more "vibes" than "people sorted by actual probability of being scum based on their scumrange and my ability to read them"

Noticing multiple SRs on Dann, I do wanna know what’s up w that because I feel like he does have an odd habit of getting yeeted D1 as scum, tho only 1 instance comes to mind immediately

Dannflor (5): humaneatingmonkey, GuiltyLion, Frogsterking, Ausuka, Datisi
ConManMick (4): scamper, Ydrasse, Aristeia, VP Baltar
GuiltyLion (3): skitter30, DeasVail, Dannflor
Gamma Emerald (3): Irrelephant11, fireisredsir, Nero Cain
obscure (1): Firebringer
Aristeia (1): ConManMick
Frogsterking (1): Gamma Emerald
Not voting (2): marcistar, xofelf
Day 1 will end in (expired on 2022-09-09 23:15:00). With 20 alive, 11 is needed to lim and 10 to no lim.
Mod notes: no weird pictures have some music

Ayo redfire, you still good w your vote?

This post on the other hand seems like an incredibly weird thing to say to a buddy.

[Thestatusquo]

The first one is quoted mistakenly, was just talking about the comment to fire.

[Thestatusquo]

Gamma doesn't talk about fire very much at all. What is there is all vague defense stuff rather than the bus stuff we see with her partners that have flipped.

There's several posts vaguely defending fire early in the game before we even get to the "I'll pencil you in for town" post.

If anything it looks more like pocketing attempts than bussing, but on the other hand its hard to believe that he wouldn't have ANY partners in town reads.

[Thestatusquo]

Has your read on Gamma changed?

I felt like our 1v1 was making the game intolerable so i backed off to give it more thought.

What are your current thoughts on me?

GL what are your thoughts on me specifically?

seems to be something gamma says with relative frequency

both of these from separate games where gamma was town

Ok but he said it to exactly two people this game. Maybe its something he knows he does but replicated it towards just his scum buddies here. I'm just reading and throwing shit out.

[Thestatusquo]

I am less confident I know anything about this game at all after reading gammas iso and ctrl fing "fireis"

[Thestatusquo]

People who have done associative dives are there good reasons dannflor is unlikely to be scum that I am not remembering?

[Thestatusquo]

dannflor
- hem has a lot of posts on day 1 that were shitpushing dannflor, to the point where they do not look s/s and where dann might just be clear off hem flip alone (1133, 1177, 1206, 1578, 1585, 1588, 1693, 2335, 2337, 2348 quickly turned into 2397) (s)
- prior to the vc in 4314, which had s/s gamma/hem wagons, he voted gamma. scum is less likely to vote the lesser scum wagon in this scenario (same as deasvail) (s)
- 987 and 1144 don't feel like s/s (d)
- 1438 feels opportunistic and not s/s (d)

Hmmmm, at the very least I don't agree about 1438 especially considering gamma is generally super bussy with his other partners this game. Pushing VPB, HEM and Obscure at various points and with various levels of vehemence. I don't really agree with the 4314 point at all. I think scum will tend to vote where they feel their progressions are better.

Can you walk me through why you think the hem posts earlier don't look distancy to you? Because some of them look quite distancy to me.

VOTE: humaneatingmonkey

i missed this

what's good eiralox

This one in particular looks QUITE like how I would expect scum to react to being voted by their partner.

im good with ending the day on a dannflor or gamma flip. those two are my top priorities.

And this one which we literally know the other person involved in a scum buddy.

I think HEM was making a lot of noise eirolox and dannflors way but I don't really think he was ever actually making a genuine attempt at limming.

Do you disagree?

[Thestatusquo]

The more I read gammas iso the more I don't think fireisred makes a lot of sense with gamma buddy.

Or at the very least if they are buddies gamma played extremely different towards fireisred than she did with all her other buddies.

[Thestatusquo]

This is a good point.

[Thestatusquo]

This is a tough solve. We'll probably win just because of numbers but whomever the last scum is has played very well and is not super obvious.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm sympathetic to dann saying something similar to that earlier.

[Thestatusquo]

time for me to get paranoid about ausuka for a while and then read datisis post and decide they can't be scum either.

[Thestatusquo]

ok.

[Thestatusquo]

The more I read gammas iso the more I don't think fireisred makes a lot of sense with gamma buddy.

Or at the very least if they are buddies gamma played extremely different towards fireisred than she did with all her other buddies.

Are there any examples of why you think this?

I already posted them.

[Thestatusquo]

Trust: scamper, Ausuka,

Aristeia, xofelf

, ydrasse, fireisredsir,

marcistar

Middle ground: DeasVail, Firebringer,

Nero Cain

,

VP Baltar

, Dannflor, GuiltyLion, Irrelephant11
Distrust:

ConManMick

, Datisi,

humaneatingmonkey

, Frogsterking, obscure

is this 4 or 5 scum?
does Gamma put at least 1 buddy on each line? If yes who is the scum from the top line?

I'm tentatively onboard with a mena flip if his content is lacking. I still think GL/Relly slot is scummy lol

I'd say probably 1-1-1 or 0-2-1 or 0-1-2

probably not all 3 on one line lol

I think this is probably true, and we know its not 0-2-1.

So with the assumption that its probably not 0-0-3 that makes frogsterking unlikely.

[Thestatusquo]

I also can't shake the feeling that town!guiltylion would be more here and actively trying to solve this game than he is. I know that activity can be decoupled from alignment and I know that there are good reasons to think he's town but it kind of feels like he got consensus town read by associative stuff and then has just been trying to stay out of the way. Maybe I'm way off base but my impression of GL is that he would use not being suspected to be much more solvy than he's being here.

[Thestatusquo]

I feel like the finding my suspicious due to the CSF was garbage personally.

[Thestatusquo]

I feel like the finding my suspicious due to the CSF was garbage personally.

why

Because i think the literal exact opposite about every single part of it

[Thestatusquo]

Trust: scamper, Ausuka,

Aristeia, xofelf

, ydrasse, fireisredsir,

marcistar

Middle ground: DeasVail, Firebringer,

Nero Cain

,

VP Baltar

, Dannflor, GuiltyLion, Irrelephant11
Distrust:

ConManMick

, Datisi,

humaneatingmonkey

, Frogsterking, obscure

is this 4 or 5 scum?
does Gamma put at least 1 buddy on each line? If yes who is the scum from the top line?

I'm tentatively onboard with a mena flip if his content is lacking. I still think GL/Relly slot is scummy lol

I'd say probably 1-1-1 or 0-2-1 or 0-1-2

probably not all 3 on one line lol

I think this is probably true, and we know its not 0-2-1.

So with the assumption that its probably not 0-0-3 that makes frogsterking unlikely.

also its not 0-0-3

it's 5 scum, so it's 1-1-2, 0-2-2, or 0-1-3

This feels incredibly pedantic. I thought it was pretty obvious we were referring to the three remaining scum other than the ones flipped at the point of the post?

[Thestatusquo]

Also shea is your uncertainty on fire enough to unvote or not really?

I don't really have a better idea.

[Thestatusquo]

God i hate vca.

[Thestatusquo]

VOTE: Frogsterking

H-O-L-Y S-H-I-T

Rolling Mason is such a negative utility because it makes guys play like total brick heads

have fun winning D9 or whatever when you FINALLY kill all the scum

Thank goodness Menalque got fucking shot and Gamma exited so you guys stopped hard defending scum

Frog, have you ever self-voted as town before?

@Frog - This was a serious question, can you link me a time you've self-voted as town?

fwiw when you asked this originally I went and tried to do a site search to see if he had and I couldn't find any instances of him self voting at all.

[Thestatusquo]

my reads are pretty fluid because I'm always reevaluating and picking at new things. If I had to post a reads list of where I'm at exactly right now it would look something like this

Town
Ausuka

Nero Cain
scamper
Dannflor
Frogsterking

DeasVail
marcistar

datisi
GuiltyLion
enchant/xof
Somethingsmart
Obscure
humaneatingmonkey
ydrasse

fireisredsir
gamma emerald
Scum

But everything in the middle is pretty squishy.

If I'm being completely honest here I kind of want fireisred to be scum because I want this read list to be correct.

But that's a stupid reason and gammas iso wrt fire looks so fucking pockety

[Thestatusquo]

I just...don't really think frogsterking is scum? I guess is the long and the short of it.

[Thestatusquo]

D2 tilt wagon?

what is a tilt wagon?

HEM

what is a tilt wagon?

When the towncore goes on tilt and throws away the D2 kill.

Frog blatantly defending HEM here

I know sometimes town is Loud and Wrong about townreads on scum, but this super confident townread really only sprung up in response to HEM being wagoned. Initially Frog was suggesting he'd be ok with the wagon (before it actually happened)

I think HEM is fair game today because none of the 5 slots I'm sheeping for proxy Town reads (ydrasse, scamper, Ausuka, Dats, Nero) town read HEM unless Nero does.

this is a pretty good point and I made a similar point with his actions with the gamma lim too though where he was seemingly trying to come up with reasons people should be town reading gamma only to hammer almost immediately when I claimed intent.

:/

this game is hard.

[Thestatusquo]

idk mayne.

[Thestatusquo]

UNVOTE:

[Thestatusquo]

This past page and a half has made me way less paranoid about guiltylion.

[Thestatusquo]

The other thing that I find striking is there seems to me to be a marked difference in how frogster has approached today compared to other days in tone and substance. Previous days there were a lot of loud proclamations about who was scum and a lot of antagonism towards scum reads as well as sort of a brash confidence which seems to be completely gone today. He is definitely coasting. Unlike the other players who seem to have hesitation based off of being genuinely unsure of who could be scum out of the options frogster just doesn't seem to be thinking about it all that much.

I am kind of taken with that post that dannflor called town from frogster because something I try to do a lot is listen to people when they talk about things that they think about wrt others alignment because frequently they take those observations with their self as a baseline. Frogster said he thought I might be town because I haven't "burned out." But it seems like he himself has burned out a bit here.

[Thestatusquo]

I am now obsessed with that idea.

[Thestatusquo]

One of the strongest conclusions I had from my replace in read was that obscure wasn't new.

[Thestatusquo]

also idk maybe im gullible (i am) but i don't think obscure was faking to that extent. he def did play up his newness a bit to hide behind tho

i was more surprised by him saying he was an english teacher tbh i didn't get those vibes at all

as for his read on me i don't think there was a lot of intent on walking it back? he townread me p hard like right after that and continued to so do i think

this is maybe more active. Like, maybe he didn't have a TON of experience but he'd I'd be very surprised if he'd actually not played online mafia before and he frequently brought up his newness and used it as deflection a ton as a way to do things like talk about the number of scum in the game several times.

[Thestatusquo]

*accurate

[Thestatusquo]

The other thing that I find striking is there seems to me to be a marked difference in how frogster has approached today compared to other days in tone and substance. Previous days there were a lot of loud proclamations about who was scum and a lot of antagonism towards scum reads as well as sort of a brash confidence which seems to be completely gone today. He is definitely coasting. Unlike the other players who seem to have hesitation based off of being genuinely unsure of who could be scum out of the options frogster just doesn't seem to be thinking about it all that much.

I am kind of taken with that post that dannflor called town from frogster because something I try to do a lot is listen to people when they talk about things that they think about wrt others alignment because frequently they take those observations with their self as a baseline. Frogster said he thought I might be town because I haven't "burned out." But it seems like he himself has burned out a bit here.

This is probably mid tier because it's a really weird tinfoil that jumped off from something I said in a very wrong direction, divorced from all context in the game.

what context in this game applies to you but not me outside of possibly alignment?

Also you spent like 10 posts talking about how bad the cases on you are but you didn't actually give reasons why they're bad. That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Tell me why the cases against you are bad if you don't want me to put stock in them, don't just dismiss them with ad homs. If you're town and you don't want me to vote for you, you need to recognize that I find some of it pretty convincing and respond to it substantively. Just dismissing things angrily isn't going to work.

[Thestatusquo]

why would we be limming you? Did I miss something?

[Thestatusquo]

I'm sus of everyone who is not cleared simply because I think that everyone left has played a pretty good scum game so it's not obvious who scum is to me.

I think you and deas are in very similar tiers where I don't think you're scum but I have to consider that as a possibility because of the game state.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm even tinfoil hat sus of titus being some sort of gated sk because of the fact that nero didnt shoot or cc the claim.

[Thestatusquo]

tbh this reaction seems incredibly odd to me because it feels like it would be extremely weird to be worried about being fourth in a potential lim pool in this game state because it seems like you're worried about getting to endgame in particular when I'm not sure that's a reasonable thing to be worried about as town?

Like I don't really think the way it would work is that town just works its way down the list? Is that really what you expect to happen given the solving and discussion and reevaluation that everyone has being doing today?

[Thestatusquo]

But I also don't think scum would think its a good idea to make a big deal about it even if they were worried about that. So idk.

[Thestatusquo]

You said that you're worried about being limmed because of being fourth on datisi's list?

[Thestatusquo]

Like I'm just extremely confused as to what you're defending yourself against right now?

[Thestatusquo]

I am sympathetic to the idea of feeling shut down by datisi at points this game.

You said that we were in danger of chainsaw limming you me frog and fire before I even entered the conversation I think???

[Thestatusquo]

Ok, perhaps i just misunderstood your intent. I was kind of baffled by the idea that you would think you were in any danger of being limmed here.

[Thestatusquo]

We're friends, remember?

[Thestatusquo]

datisi put me fourth on his list so

I need to go back and look at how frog approached the dueling mena ss stuff because me recollection is that he was very strongly trying to push the town into a binary elimination there and i seem to recall him preferring Mena.

[Thestatusquo]

I just have a hard time seeing gammas interactions with fire being directed towards a buddy.

Do you disagree?

[Thestatusquo]

I also think you're giving frogster too much credit.

I don't think reacting angrily like this is out of his scum range at all, and I have a hard time making the assumption that frogster would know what getting to endgame looks like. I would say his play matched what you're talking about pretty neatly before he started getting sussed from 4 people at once to which I would say if you're getting attacked by 4 people any other plans to hit end game have to go out the window to max defend yourself right now because your end game plans don't matter if you're limmed today.

It's what caused me to say this:

The other thing that I find striking is there seems to me to be a marked difference in how frogster has approached today compared to other days in tone and substance. Previous days there were a lot of loud proclamations about who was scum and a lot of antagonism towards scum reads as well as sort of a brash confidence which seems to be completely gone today. He is definitely coasting. Unlike the other players who seem to have hesitation based off of being genuinely unsure of who could be scum out of the options frogster just doesn't seem to be thinking about it all that much.

I am kind of taken with that post that dannflor called town from frogster because something I try to do a lot is listen to people when they talk about things that they think about wrt others alignment because frequently they take those observations with their self as a baseline. Frogster said he thought I might be town because I haven't "burned out." But it seems like he himself has burned out a bit here.

I also like...I'm starting to think it might not be TOO tinfoil to think titus might be a gated SK. I just can't get over the lack of shot or CC from nero, and I think it would kind of explain the balance here which I think might be slightly town sided with just 5 goons?

On the other hand universal backup doesn't make a ton of sense in the setup without the two vigs? Maybe it does? Does universal backup copy masons? I assume so?

[Thestatusquo]

This is not super important to resolve right now obviously but I'm gunna keep bringing it up because I really don't want it to get lost in the shuffle.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't know how fireisred plays normally, but one of the things that's skeeved me out the literal whole game is he seems very interested in pointing out minor inconsistencies in things people say but doesn't seem interested in talking about people Sussing him at all. I remember a very consistent pattern of him not responding to points against him from me for like most of the game, and I wasn't really sure if I found that to be townie or scummy. I think that at the very least the thing you're calling out here has been pretty consistent the whole game. Whether thats a component of town!fire's game normally I have no idea.

[Thestatusquo]

I also don't think it's a coincidence that the brash accusatory attacking tone came back as soon as I noted that shift. I don't know if town frogster would react to that call-out in the same way but i guess it's possible.

[Thestatusquo]

I think you're fine. It's an emotional game.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't know how fireisred plays normally, but one of the things that's skeeved me out the literal whole game is he seems very interested in pointing out minor inconsistencies in things people say but doesn't seem interested in talking about people Sussing him at all. I remember a very consistent pattern of him not responding to points against him from me for like most of the game, and I wasn't really sure if I found that to be townie or scummy. I think that at the very least the thing you're calling out here has been pretty consistent the whole game. Whether thats a component of town!fire's game normally I have no idea.

i don't really remember any actual points you've made against me tbh

ik a lot of people like to read and sort others based on suspicion of themselves but thats not really something i tend to do, im usually more interested in looking at how people interact with each other

That second paragraph is what I'm interested in, because that does seem to be the vibe I got from how you approached my pretty consistent suspicion of you the whole game, which is why I haven't really mentioned this before, it just seemed germane to what dannflor was saying so I wanted to note that its something I've noticed about you the whole game so that can be part of his analysis.

[Thestatusquo]

i feel like an asshole now lol

i didn't mean to lash out, i thought datisi was criticising me poking around deas without scumreading him and tried to respond that i thought it was unreasonable to expect me not to do that, i don't mean to lash out at anyone suspecting me. i did not even perceive that as datisi suspecting me but saying my posts were pointless.

i think i tend to do badly in arguments with emotions involved and i think my words here portrayed more than i was actually feeling. i am going to stop playing mafia soon and then i will try to sort that out.

Also as someone coming off a really long break because of very similar emotional issues I just want to say that I understand and that my long "retirement" did me a lot of good, but I've very much enjoyed playing this game and you've been a pretty big part of that so like...don't be so hard on yourself ok?

Also, consider playing LSGs while you're mafia breaking.

[Thestatusquo]

Yeah maybe. I just don't understand neros play from a town pov at all. And we're still waiting for the titus full claim iirc.

[Thestatusquo]

On the other hand universal backup doesn't make a ton of sense in the setup without the two vigs? Maybe it does? Does universal backup copy masons? I assume so?

it does copy masons too, yeah

and i don't think gated serial killer makes any sense because that role would just be an incredible "fuck you" to whoever randed it (sk is already shit to play, imagine being gated)

the only way an sk makes sense (imho) is if the sk was shooting every night and doubled up on kills with scum at points

I guess I feel pretty strongly that town nero probably would have shot me instead of enchant if he wasn't going to shoot the claim?

I didn't think about this at all but I guess I kind of feel strongly that Nero's actions make NO sense as town.

[Thestatusquo]

It just psychologically doesn't make ANY fucking sense that a player like Nero who was SO suspicious of me and was SO sure he was right that I was scum and couldn't get me limmed would then turn around and shoot enchant randomly instead?

:/

Am I crazy? Maybe.

[Thestatusquo]

idk the enchant shot makes sense to me, he suspected them, enchant is usually a slot that gets elimmed at some point

Go read Neros interactions with me day 2 and tell me he would randomly shoot enchant over me or a claim of his role with a straight face.

[Thestatusquo]

Idk why you think nero calmly discussing a leash on the role he ostensibly has from a claim lends credence to the theory that he was town.