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[Thestatusquo]

Me waiting to post during the interminable night and then waiting 10m after the flips being posted.

[Thestatusquo]

Ausuka

Vaguely like ausukas entry to the game even though I don’t know why they town read ydrasse.

I REALLY like Post 259. It’s something that didn’t hit me when I first read the post, but I really agree.

This questioning of datisi screams town to me.

Post 732 I don’t really like this response to marci either tbh. It feels like a town player would want to do some amount of convincing of other town players if they really thought this post came from scum marci. On the other hand its maybe an emotional reaction vote and those tend to come from town more than scum (no matter how much people like to shout OMGUS at the top of their lungs)

Post 1074 kind of weird that this didn’t occur to ausuka because I’m pretty sure this point got made on like page 10 or something right when ausuka was questioning datisi. I find this kind of inconsistency to be more likely to come from town than scum though.

Scamper

Post 135 is just bizarre. Scum being annoyed at an early correct town read? What? That’s just…not a thing? In a large? What? I kind of feel like its the kind of bizarre statement that only comes from town.

On page 15 I’m getting some really sketchy vibes from scamper tbh.

Scamper’s Post 516 just pings me in all sorts of bad ways. I don’t love that preemptive defense of ausuka when no one was saying they thought they were scum, in fact the prevailing wisdom of the crowd seems to be that they’re town, so parroting that seems like a good way to insert yourself into the conversation giving an opinion that is in no way controversial or important, and then the takeaway is like “well but also baltars questioning makes sense I guess. Could be town. Idk.” Garbage stuff.

Most of scampers iso is stuff like this so far.

Post 632 Hey my former self makes a point I agree with! Hey scamper, want to actually say who might be the scum instead of doing the thing scum frequently do day 1 where they cast doubt on weak reads of other people to seem engaged but are actually saying nothing the whole damn time.

I stg if scamper flips scum I’m going to go back and lock town every single person they did this about.

Also FB and Scamper have non-zero buddy equity.

Post 642 The FUCK does this actually MEAN. No one is asking you to lock scum people, but how do you think scum reads actually happen? Do you think the wolf just comes up to you and grins and says YUP I’m a wolf! You’re supposed to use your vote to FIND them. Not just park it on FB randomly, do nothing to actually create any pressure from it, and then make vague doubting noises whenever someone expresses that something might be scummy. If you’re town thats just not how you play, my guy.

Post 743 this post SUUUUUUUUUCKS. Curtailing your posting? What? You haven’t exactly been tearing up the thread before this, pal. I think things like this also where someone cautions against some imaginary bogeyman (100 page day one! The horror!) are WAY more likely to come from scum than town early on.

Post 851 yawn another example of scamper just throwing water at a read of someone else without providing any opinions of his own.

Post 1018 nothing to see here, just another example of scamper throwing cold water on reads without interrogating them at all or providing his own thoughts. Doesn’t even feel the need to say which ones this time. Says doesnt feel like elaborating which is weird because just earlier hes like I dont have anything to talk about.

Ugh this is just scum, isnt it?

Post 1025 says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Attacks a scarecrow of “all the scum being in the least active people” which absolutely no one was advancing.

Also keeps saying he doesn’t have a good idea of where the game is at or its incomplete, but that doesn’t seem to stop him from having a lot of vaguely well poisony thoughts on someone elses reads every time he manages to pop into the thread.

Post 1055 ooooooh are we gunna get a 1v1 when I get into the game? Come at me, bro.

Post 1076 This is an extremely amusing post because, yes, actually, if you read the rest of this iso dive I think your scum range is EXACTLY that, but not to get town read but rather to just continue being present in the thread while adding nothing.

Post 1149 I like this post insofar as its one of the first times I’ve actually seen reasoning added to one of scampers dismissive posts but it is still a dismissive post without adding much and I think severely understates why people are suspicious of datisi as well. Idk.

Post 1266 what a brave and bold take from scamper. “He probably isnt scum. Idk. Wouldn’t be surprised if he was scum.

What exactly IS interesting to you? I’ve read 50 pages of you and I still don’t know. I’m sorry mafia is so boring for you.

Post 1293 oh boy we get OPINIONS FINALLY.

Ironically scampers posts since casing my predecessor make me feel much better about him. For one thing he actually seems to be interested in taking stances and explaining them.

Post 1387 I like this post quite a bit. I’m beginning to come around quite a bit here. Maybe we won’t have a fun 1v1 after all.

It’s possible that scamper is just the kind of player who takes a while to get warmed up to whats going on and uses these sorts of “adding nothing” posts to build up that connection to the game.

Post 1501 ok I’m back to not liking scamper because I do not like this post at ALL. I know I have some bias here because I know the flip, but this play just does not match the style I’ve seen scamper do all game, which is to cautiously move extremely slowly with his own reads and nitpick everyone elses reads ad naus without actually engaging with them. He has also multiple times expressed not being interested in things or bored by them because he does not think they lead to useful information.

So it is EXTREMELY incongruous here for him to immediately say, upon a replacement joining the game to replace an extreme lurker “I’m just going to vote here immediately.” despite even saying that the replacement is NAI based off of the one entry vote when theres so much else going on. I just…What?

Do I think its necessarily scum indicative? Idk, but holy hell is it completely different from every other game action he’s taken this game.

Datisi

Datisi’s entrance is as town as random shit can be. I like Datisi picking up on the same interesting point as I did on skitter even if he’s coming to the opposite conclusion to me. I have a bias towards looking towards people picking up the same moments as I do as important because I find that scum have a harder time figuring out the actual bits to talk about.

I will say on page 38 I’m starting to come around to the idea that I don’t know what datisi is trying to accomplish. It seems to me like he’s been very active when his name comes up but he has not done much that I would call solving so far this game.

Humaneatingmonkey

In contrast with Skitters page 1 reaction HEMs reaction to getting votes in RVS is more in line with what I would expect from scum, joking reactions to them which are trying to say ‘lol I dont care. Lol its funny ur voting me’

Though the interaction with ydrasse kind of reads more similar to my thoughts on skitter.

Post 286 feels way more like a scum wagon jump than a real read, but at the same time I don’t know that scum would be trying to pressure datisi this early in the day. Possible buddy equity if either of them flip scum.

Post 313 is this a town reaction?

Post 783 ugh I’m going to fucking hate playing with you, aren’t I? I fucking hate this style of scum hunting. It’s DAY FUCKING ONE. Saying things are POE is fucking NONSENSE.

Page 38 I’m starting to think HEM might be town.

Page 45 I’m really starting to vibe with HEMs thoughts. Feeling pretty good about a town read here.

Aristeia

It is noteworthy that we’re on page 13 and I don’t feel like you’ve done anything noteworthy.

​​Post 782 is a very good point, unfortunate that theres no follow up in the post but this is exactly what I was thinking. Not in the sense that I thought ausuka asked for it, but in the sense this is the second time this game that I’ve noticed marci doing something IMMEDIATELY after someone mentioned that it would be town of her to do so.

It’s not a town tell if you say if before hand! Then its the opposite!

Post 2261 This isnt alignment indicative or anything but every time someone makes a post like this I wonder if they’ve ever been in a scum PT. I’ve been in a lot of them and in my experience scum daytalk interaction just…does not look like this for the most part. Theres some vague back and forth usually but I don’t think I’ve ever had a scum buddy tell me “hey you need to do/say this” in this manner before.

Firebringer*

I’m not going to try to read firebringer. You’ll have to catch him for me.

Ok I lied, this on page 37. I think firebringers lack of engagement and generally not feeling that excited about the game make me slight town lean him.

More lies from me. Post 967 just doesnt feel real to me in the sense that I don’t think town firebringer makes it. I think its pretty obvious that the attack isnt that you’re voting skitter, but rather that you have done nothing to interrogate that vote or any other possible one.

The fluff about scum claiming not getting you scum read well I’ve played like 6 games with you and you’ve at least vaguely scum claimed in like..4 of them? As both alignments? This doesn’t seem like a real response but rather just vague deflection and well poisoning.

Post 1181 I agree with guiltylion about this. I realize this contradicts what I said earlier about lack of engagement being a slight town lean but I do agree that with that lack of engagement there is just a different energy to firebringer town game. It’s like as town he makes all the jokes in between the game play but as scum the jokes ARE the game play. I get that sense here.

Post 1565 I keep changing my mind about this and I know self-meta is crap but actually this post really resonated with me because it really does read like annoyed firebringer who knows that being scum in a game would never really be a reason for him to be low effort.

That doesn’t really necessarily answer the last point I said about jokes being the game play vs between the game play but its something I want to think about.

This slot is hard. Firebringer is hard.

Gamma Emerald

I can’t get over this feeling that Gamma is just sitting on the periphery of the game and picking at safe topics to discuss. Post 331 is an example. Does gamma actually care about this? Does he expect this line of questioning to actually go somewhere important? There’s loads happening, so this feels like a really strange thread to pick at.

Gammas posts on 18-20 feel like more of this to me. Just kind of there without doing anything. They’re more committal in that we actually get some reads and agreements but it still feels like gamma is just standing on the edges of the game.

We’re on page 46 and I’m still waiting for gamma to DO something.

Page 58. Gamma is back. Gamma still is doing NOTHING. Why does no one want to vote gamma? Why doesn’t gamme want to find scum? So many questions.

Post 1582 god I just hate this shit so much. I don’t think I can overstate this: This is just fundamentally not how mafia works.

Post 2359 this might be the first post this game that reminds me of the gamma town games I’ve seen.

Nero Cain

Post 291 feels like a town post. I don’t really know why nero cain would jump in and try to steer the conversation away from what is currently happening unless he and datisi happen to be buddies. On the other hand the follow up reason is nonsense so maybe it could have some scum equity in just trying to derail the town discussion.

Post 521 feels like nonsense mostly, but it at least feels like nonsense that he believes. Is scum nero really getting this righteous over this and devoting a wall post to it? Methinks not.

Dannflor Eiralox

I’m here on page 50 and I still have yet to hear anything remotely readable or impactful for eiralox. I see there’s a replacement so I’m probably just going to wait for that.

Post 1559 I’m glad someone said this. It really annoys me when people are like “It was genuine so it can’t come from scum.”

I get genuinely upset as scum all the fucking time.

Post 1575 I AGREEEEEEEEE. *jumps into dannflors pocket*

Post 1598 More than HALF the time??? REALLY? Really? Reallllllly? *jumps out of dannflors pocket*

Fireisredsir

Post 105 sucks because its such a bad basis for a town read. Marci so far has done basically nothing and I think claiming the vibes could come from town more often then scum. Ydrasse has a more detailed thought on this in post Post 106 which I like better because it seems to be getting more into the why here, but I’m honestly not sure its better actually because scum literally do the “lol its because I’m scum” thing all the fucking time. I haven’t played with Marci but I have played with firebringer who is in this game and basically both his scum game and town game involve jokingly claiming scum constantly. This part of this kind of should go on the ydrasse section but I started typing it here and now its here.

Post 112 REEKS in this context. Oh let me get the town talking about how something that isn’t a town tell is a town tell and then DO it immediately after. Hate it.

Fire breaking out the self-meta in Post 173 to say nooo don’t town read me for the wrong reasons this is actually how I would play as scum but LOL DONT WORRY I’M NOT SCUM HERE is an argument I hear all the time. From scum. Would definitely be voting fire here.

Post 270 is a YIKES from me. Saying that the town read on ausuka came from the datisi callout but the proclamation of ausuka town read came BEFORE the post which is referenced in this post. Post hoc justification of a read is serious scum vibes. There was no datisi callout yet, just a naked vote.

Post 1378 I agree with this post but also like…I have no idea where we currently are in MS meta cycles of whether pushes on lurkers tend to come from townies or from scum. It tends to oscillate in my experience.

Post 1414 self meta is either useless or cheating. Either you are lying and you try to do these things equally because you are aware of them, OR you are actually aware of the differences in your play and intentionally not fixing them and bringing them to the attention of others in your town games is borderline trust telling. So I guess my question to you is: Which is it? Are you so bad that there is a massive difference in your town games and your scum games in how you fundamentally approach day one and you’re mentioning that here to say you’re town in this game, or are you a capable town and scum player who we can safely disregard your self meta description of yourself?

GuiltyLion

We’re at the guiltylion entrance and its town as fuck.

Guiltylions 888 and 891 ping me quite a bit. I understand the theory is to pick at someone to try to discern their alignment but this doesn’t feel real to me. It’s the kind of thing I frequently do as scum where I find something to pick at and sort of question someone directly on it in order to look engaged with the game and like I’m solving. The issue here is that I really don’t see how this line of question helps guiltylion solve scamper. Am I really supposed to believe that “why did you respond to me saying you were scum with some reasoning” a reasonable thing to be surprised by? I don’t, really. There are so many things that GL could have talked about and this seems like a very odd place that doesnt accomplish anything but making him look like hes involved.

Post 919 is really interesting. On the surface I like it, but also isn’t this guiltylion accusing someone of doing exactly what I was just accusing gl of doing?

Post 1514 I’m no jeeptell enthusiast but third vote on the wagon. From a slot I’m iffy on. On a wagon I think sucks now that I’m reading context. On a player I already know is town. :thunk:

God guiltylions push on conman is SO bad. Hes scum because he’s aggressive now? What?

VP Baltar

Post 512 is a very weird post to me. Like, I don’t know if this is alignment indicative at all but its just extremely odd to make a post that says “I don’t begrudge you for having a gut read” and then proceed to…do exactly that? Isn’t the whole point of a read being gut that you don’t have concrete reasons to discuss in the play? Isn’t the point that baltar doesn’t “see anything in the play” kind of disingenuous if he is saying the read is gut?

Post 2150 breaking my no writing about the game rule to say I think this is a very good post.

Marcistar

I can’t help but notice that marci, as soon as people started discussing her on page 6-7 and declaring her town for being present and not awkward and willing to respond to something with a joke immediately disappeared from the conversation. I would think that’s something that people who were actually looking into a real meta analysis of marci would pick up on, but like I said meta is garbage and people squint to make it say whatever they want it to at any given time.

Post 330 don’t like this post either. Coming back into the game and reacting in the exact same way as people flimsily townread you for before while adding very little additional context to the game at all is a big yikes. And I really hate the meta read here a lot. People change and people learn. This seems to be a particularly shitty example of meta which is directly correlated to change as someone gets more experience.

Oh hey, marci comes back on page 24 and once again contributes nothing. And ONCE again drops the “let me joke about being scum” thing again that got her town read for shitty meta reasons earlier. Hmmmmmm.

Post 732 seems like such a huge tonal overreaction to what was happening here. Maybe I’m missing some context but like jesus christ.

Post 740 is a weird AtE. What is there to be frustrated about? The game has barely started? You had a couple people vaguely think you could be scum? This also seems like such an incredible overreaction to me and I don’t think a town one.

Post 750 more AtE stuff. Marci, if you are actually town and you want to “do good” as you put it, why don’t you try solving instead of posting giant walls about being sad. The reason people are finding you suspicious is you’ve done basically nothing except pop into the thread go “LOL YA I’M SCUM” and then disappear without any attempt at determining other peoples alignments. If this is really your town game it needs a major makeover.

Post 809 feels vaguely town. One of the first times I’ve seen marci do something I would call earnest attempt at sorting.

In fact, the whole follow up to dropping this list feels vaguely town too. And spurred actual discussion.

Post 838 is also pretty townie.

Post 996 dont love this from marci. When she posted a similar list someone pointed out that one of the people on it had done nothing she said “so why do you think theyre on the list” so she’s aware of the process of putting lurkers in your scum pool.

Page 53: Marci is still here apparently. And still not interested in playing the game.

Post 1564 YES! <3

Post 1717 this grouping is EXTREMELY gross.

Post 1835 yo this is precisely how I feel about gamma as well. Marci why dont you post more shit like this and less shit like LOL VOTE ME LOLOLOLOL

I think I’ve decided to town read marci for her actions and push on gamma at end of day, mostly. I also feel like the tone is good.

Xofelf

On some level, I understand that it is probably true that Xof doesn’t post much content day 1 as town, but on the other hand I don’t really want to let them get away with it because while it might not be super scummy for them its not super townie either!

We’re on page 15. I need to know what you think.

obscure skitter30

I liked skitters response to being voted in RVS. I know this can go either way depending on the player but in general from players with a bit of experience I find that digging into RVS votes like this is likely to come more from town than from scum. Scum are trying to generate discussion that does not point back to them and are focused on not seeming suspicious or hyper defensive so its not usually a discussion point scum choose. Slight town lean.

Kind of hate skitters Post 89 though. It’s weirdly defendy for no reason, I think. I’ve played/read a few games played by ydrasse and I don’t understand why ydrasse wouldn’t have in scum range putting a third vote on for pressure in the RVS stage. That seems like a completely normal thing to do. Vaguely pockety, maybe? Idk.

@skitter your meta on marci is trash. Meta is trash.

I like skitters reentry to the game. I think in particular the thing that stands out to me is coming back into a game you’ve been out of for a while and having the ability to say I dont know or I’m unsure about a lot of stuff. I think thats actually something thats difficult to put in your scum range. There’s a big difference between saying something is null and saying “not sure i understand marci/ausuka but i think it's probably tvt”

Even though I don’t agree with the thoughts on scamper. I don’t think functionally townies frequently complain about thread length and take a back seat in the game especially if they’re not already super involved. I see a lot of sweet sweet scum motivation for doing that.

Post 903
Same, skittzy. Same.

Post 906
Shea - Skitter clasping hands dot jpg

Post 1731
Uhhhhhh. I can’t believe no one else pointed this out but I have seen the “newbie asks how many scum are in a game.” like 5 times in my life and every single time they’ve been scum. Like EVERY SINGLE TIME.

I’m gunna have a really hard time not just death tunneling this.

It’s weird because the content is actually generally ok. Little bland and generic, but they are new, but gosh thats a huge slip imo.

The more I’m reading the more it just does not read like newb scum imo. (page 70ish for reference)

Post 1981 ugthghhghghhgh were talking about the number of scum again. This time with certainty. Is there any way I can NOT death tunnel this.

Also like…yo, am I the only one who thinks obscures posts have felt like vaguely performative? Like they are at great pains to bring up how new they are a LOT and make a big show of asking newb questions and “googling omgus.”

Like I don’t want to be the asshole who is like is this new person lying about being new and be wrong but also like thats the vibe I’m catching so like idk dude.

Post 2003 like here we’re just throwing out the term pocket which is definitely obscure mafia terminology but we made a big show of googling omgus??? Especially because his experience is supposedly IRL and I’ve played a shit ton IRL and its not like pocket is a phrase that comes up a ton there in my experience.

I feel like I’m just confbiasing myself more and more here so I’m probably not going to vote this right out of the bat day 2 but just be aware its under the surface here simmering.

Ydrasse

I’m gunna talk about this a little more here even though I talked about it under fireisreds blurb, but I just really don’t like this defense of marci. It’s not a reasonable stance. People do things that “bring pressure on them” all the time and ESPECIALLY in RVS it seems like the claim that scum would be worried about a joke claim of lurking in the first few pages of the game bringing pressure onto them in a real sense is just LAUGHABLE and I don’t think that’s a real basis for a town read, I just don’t. This just feels like a blatant pocket attempt tbh.

I’ve sort of liked some stuff ydrasse said early in the game but I’m here on page 36 and I’m starting to realize its been quite a while since I’ve seen them do something I would describe as “solvey” in any way. Ydrasse, what’s up wit dat? There’s been a lot of stuff like cat gifs and “painting nails gif” and not a lot of righteously murdering wolfies.

Page 46. The more time that goes by without ydrasse doing something the more jittery I get about ydrasse.

Post 1274 makes me worried that I don’t understand ydrasse very well. Something to consider.

Post 1506 hate this post too. I covered my thoughts on the first cmm vote on scampers iso but I just wanted to mention here that I find it completely shocking that ydrasse thinks that this is the place where they should actually get involved in the game. I also like…actually kind of liked CMMs response to the questioning so I’m not really even certain what prompted the vote.

Frogsterking Dunnstral

What the fuck is this entrance?

Post 1625 is this really what people consider playing mafia now a days? Asking people questions like “Would you please tell me if you do this as town?” and expecting that it will ever give a useful answer.

And honestly the most frustrating part about it is that probably its completely NAI.

DeasVail

I liked deas entrance to the game on page 13. I hadn’t considered the wishywashyness of the nero post he highlights but it seems like a good thing to pick up on.

Post 349 ok yeah Dv can be town.

Post 994 is an interesting take on datisi that I hadn’t considered. I personally have felt pretty sympathetic to the idea that datisi doesn’t seem to be making much solvy efforts here but I’m open to the idea that perhaps datisi is good enough as a player that he would be trying to make more effort to appear town, but on the other hand isn’t he also a good enough player that he would be making more effort AS town? Is the claim here that as town he allows himself to indulge annoyances and as scum he doesnt? That doesnt make much sense to me. I still think its a pretty townie post from DV because I like where its digging and how the thoughts are pointed even if I don’t agree with the conclusions that much.

Thoughts not related to a specific player or my predecessor:

Post 403 lol love having pretty much the exact opposite reads of the slot I’m replacing

I have read up to page 20 and I will take a breakypoo.

Ok I am now up to page 30. There’s so much going on. I wonder how we get from here to a conmanmick lim. I swear to god if you fuckers lazily yeeted a lurker instead of actually using some of this shit I am going to have a conniption. Anyway second break time.

Ok starting again. <3.

Page 32 God this is taking me way more time than usual. I think I’m being way more nitpicky than usual and its making me want to talk about multiple things per page.

Ok I’m on page 42. Time to do some work so I don’t get fired.

Ok I did one productivity. Time to return to the real task at hand.

Ok page 51 pause time. HALFWAY THERE

I’m on page 55 and I’m trying really hard to stay invested because I would really like to be caught up fully before day start but honestly its getting kind of hard to keep focused so please forgive me if I start skimming a little bit more and calling out specific posts less. When I post this if you feel like theres a specific post I missed that might be elucidating for me pleaaaaase point it out :eyes emoji:

I’m up to 63 and I’m super skimming at this point. This whole exercise was a mistake and I want to die.

I’m at 75. I’m not going to post that many more comments on things from this point on because its 10:35pm and I need to sleep at some point and I want to post this right when the thread opens and then let people talk about it while I have time to read through it myself and sort through what I think it means about my reads.

At 88. I just want to say I am extremely not understanding the dann scum reads. It feels like a whole bunch of people just simultaneously said “DEEP WOLF” in one voice and then all of a sudden it became common wisdom somehow. It’s possible I’m missing something in the skim but I thought his entrance was fine and I think the slot he replaced was non-existent (and I do not think, as someone who has modded a fuck ton of games, that replacement is at all +scum equity. In my experience its pretty much the opposite) but I do find that scum love PUSHING replacement slots because they have a much harder time defending themselves without being in the flow of the game and they have the actions of their predecessor to answer for.

@MOD: out of game aside

Can you please make some quality of life improvements to this game for the players?

Please format your first post better and consider adding useful information there for players. Best practice would be to have a separe list for players who are alive and dead (with information about their deaths i.e. role, when they were eliminated, etc) as well as some information about the current phase and deadline. This is especially true in games where you are pausing the deadline to get replacements. I need to be able to figure out when night or day actually ends and it is incredibly difficult when there is not one source of truth. Here is an example from a game I ran (viewtopic.php?f=54&t=87738)
Please do not pause the deadline to find replacements. It is somewhat understandable to do this over night or if a deadline is imminent, although personally I still wouldn’t, but there is no need to pause the deadline when there are 8 days remaining to find a replacement. It drags the game and bloats the thread and doesn’t really add anything meaningful.

[Thestatusquo]

Now I will leave the thread for a bit, come back and read my own post and try to figure out who I actually think are scum. It's football time now.

GLHF everyone.

[Thestatusquo]

Post 783 ugh I’m going to fucking hate playing with you, aren’t I? I fucking hate this style of scum hunting. It’s DAY FUCKING ONE. Saying things are POE is fucking NONSENSE.

shut the fuck up

I haven't read the Giant Post yet I just immediately skipped to what you said about me and I want to clarify something

God guiltylions push on conman is SO bad. Hes scum because he’s aggressive now? What?

I don't think you understood my posts, which posts is this referring to? CMM's aggression gave me town pings and I said I didn't want to vote him, I wanted to stay on Dann, and that my gut was CMM was town. I briefly thought he may be scum after the self-hammer, but the main thing I had was CMM/VPB unaligned.

This is certainly possible. I was just skimming and kind of glazed over at that point so i definitely could have just completely misinterpreted what you were saying.

[Thestatusquo]

Post 783 ugh I’m going to fucking hate playing with you, aren’t I? I fucking hate this style of scum hunting. It’s DAY FUCKING ONE. Saying things are POE is fucking NONSENSE.

shut the fuck up

Oof: telling someone to shut the fuck up is not an acceptable way to respond to someone saying they think your point is nonsense. Please do not speak to me like that.

[Thestatusquo]

*oog

[Thestatusquo]

On my phone. Happy to vibe while i watch.

[Thestatusquo]

There is a difference between attacking an argument and telling someone to shut the fuck up. If you'd like me to get a list mod to explain the difference to you i can report it instead of just requesting you not speak to me like that.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm real timing right now

[Thestatusquo]

I simply asked you to not speak to me like that. I reiterate that request if you'd like to honor it and move on with your life that would be fine by me.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm real timing right now

I dont think that its that telling 15 minutes Into the game sadly

This back and forth with me feels like more interactive real timing than i noticed you doing for most of day one. Is there any reason for that? Either for the relative lack of it day 1 or for doing it now?

I'm interested in real timing with you in particular so I'm delighted rn.

[Thestatusquo]

Dig more into my wall and you'll also notice i said basically nothing about vpb because honestly he didn't make that much of an impression on me.

Which looks like garbage now that the flip has happened but I'm not gunna go add a bunch of stuff ex post facto.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm real timing right now

I dont think that its that telling 15 minutes Into the game sadly

This back and forth with me feels like more interactive real timing than i noticed you doing for most of day one. Is there any reason for that? Either for the relative lack of it day 1 or for doing it now?

I'm interested in real timing with you in particular so I'm delighted rn.

the longer days go on when i dont have any reason to really change my mind the less i care about the game especially on day 1 with like next to no info
i get the tired sleepy when it comes to mafia

start of day exciting and fun but i will probably burn out after i figure out what i want to do for Ze day

I like this answer.

I found your slot extremely hard to sort because i don't remember what you're like despite having i think modded you a couple times.

I kept feeling like you weren't doing very much. Let me into your head.

[Thestatusquo]

It's very important to recognize that knowing what i know now i wouldn't have voted CMM as either alignment.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm really interested in what people think about what i think about obscure.

Because i was not happy when i came to the conclusions i did. So sanity checks appreciated.

[Thestatusquo]

Post 270 is a YIKES from me. Saying that the town read on ausuka came from the datisi callout but the proclamation of ausuka town read came BEFORE the post which is referenced in this post. Post hoc justification of a read is serious scum vibes. There was no datisi callout yet, just a naked vote.

um ausuka voting datisi for that post is why i called ausuka town

the vote was not naked it was directly in response to datisi's post and quoted it

she did not explain the reasoning behind it but she didn't need to bc i understood what she was thinking anyway (or at least i thought i did, and her later explanation confirmed that)

Possible i missed that context. I'll go back and reread it later tonight and decide if i was being unfair.

[Thestatusquo]

Post 1414 self meta is either useless or cheating. Either you are lying and you try to do these things equally because you are aware of them, OR you are actually aware of the differences in your play and intentionally not fixing them and bringing them to the attention of others in your town games is borderline trust telling. So I guess my question to you is: Which is it? Are you so bad that there is a massive difference in your town games and your scum games in how you fundamentally approach day one and you’re mentioning that here to say you’re town in this game, or are you a capable town and scum player who we can safely disregard your self meta description of yourself?

don't rly care what you think about the usefulness of self meta, i like sharing my thoughts. you are welcome to ignore them if you want

calling it borderline trust telling is ridiculous. nowhere did i say that my town and scum games are wildly divergent and that one should be instantly recognizable. i was just trying to explain my motivations/mindset in this specific game bc it was relevant to the post i was responding to

my goal as scum is not to precisely imitate my townplay. it's to get townread and to kill town. those are accomplished in very different ways so your point here is irrelevant

I disagree with you about this but i don't actually think it's relevant to your alignment so I'm not really interested in discussing it further.

[Thestatusquo]

@thestatusquo I am a new player. I'm not asking to be seen as townie for it as I do have experience with social deduction games but I would prefer if you respect the fact that I am new regardless because... what you're saying is coming across as quite offensive when I'm only trying to figure things out. Maybe I seem dumb but subbing into a game for the first time in so many pages as my first game ever isn't exactly easy.

More thoughts tomorrow.

hi shea!!!

Hi! I thought you were scum but then i decided you probably weren't.

[Thestatusquo]

Ugh i hate the multi quote mobile thing.

[Thestatusquo]

One of the things I'm kind of bummed about is i felt really good about Marci and scamper as scum early day one but then they both had like inflection points that made me think that was totally off base.

[Thestatusquo]

Idk i like 1v1s

[Thestatusquo]

Idk the pretty ones are who you have to look out for.

[Thestatusquo]

Can you go more in depth on Dannflor as a scum read? I talked about it a bit in my post if you want context but i just didn't get that from my read through and it's the scum read of people i had the hardest time understanding.

[Thestatusquo]

@frogster

[Thestatusquo]

I'm really interested in what people think about what i think about obscure.

Because i was not happy when i came to the conclusions i did. So sanity checks appreciated.

i will cop to this: this was a thought i had in my back pocket that i did not want to share on day 1, because i did not want to push obscure then (and was planning on waiting on sharing it until later this phase if possible)


i do not think obscure is new to forum mafia. i believe he is legitimately new to the website (because the mods will smack down someone who tries to join the newbie queue as an alt), but he is downplaying his forum mafia experience. he is more self-assured than i would expect a newbie to be, and has also used language i would not expect a new player to use, while seemingly playing up his inexperience to get townread. i do find this suspicious although i have seen people play the fake newbie card as town before, god knows why

Specifically what do you think of the twice referring to the number of scum in the game? Honest to God when i saw that i practically hacked the site to unlock the thread to vote him

[Thestatusquo]

i think you should be happy that you came to a better conclusion

well jury is still out on marci, not so sure about that one

i think baltars townread on marci is too terrible to be a townread on a partner

beyond that i still think her reaction to being scumread is way more likely to be town entitlement altho i admit i could be overly generous there

I want to know what you think of my observation that multiple times day one she responded to people saying x is more likely to come from town by immediately doing x right after.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't know what "can you explain why Dannflor was being scum read in the first place to me" is not a question.

[Thestatusquo]

going back to this:

Post 1501 ok I’m back to not liking scamper because I do not like this post at ALL. I know I have some bias here because I know the flip, but this play just does not match the style I’ve seen scamper do all game, which is to cautiously move extremely slowly with his own reads and nitpick everyone elses reads ad naus without actually engaging with them. He has also multiple times expressed not being interested in things or bored by them because he does not think they lead to useful information.

So it is EXTREMELY incongruous here for him to immediately say, upon a replacement joining the game to replace an extreme lurker “I’m just going to vote here immediately.” despite even saying that the replacement is NAI based off of the one entry vote when theres so much else going on. I just…What?

Do I think its necessarily scum indicative? Idk, but holy hell is it completely different from every other game action he’s taken this game.

do u actually think me making an immediate vote is unlike the actions i have taken this game?

i had one scumread i felt decently about on day 1, irrelephant. i could not get traction on him because people were townreading him for (imo bad) reasons and then he stopped playing the game and made excuses for not catching up. of course i am going to go back to tghat scumread on day 2. you dont get to start with a clean slate.

I'm talking about your vote on CMM there.

Your vote on relly was when i started to think you were town.

[Thestatusquo]

going back to this:

Post 1501 ok I’m back to not liking scamper because I do not like this post at ALL. I know I have some bias here because I know the flip, but this play just does not match the style I’ve seen scamper do all game, which is to cautiously move extremely slowly with his own reads and nitpick everyone elses reads ad naus without actually engaging with them. He has also multiple times expressed not being interested in things or bored by them because he does not think they lead to useful information.

So it is EXTREMELY incongruous here for him to immediately say, upon a replacement joining the game to replace an extreme lurker “I’m just going to vote here immediately.” despite even saying that the replacement is NAI based off of the one entry vote when theres so much else going on. I just…What?

Do I think its necessarily scum indicative? Idk, but holy hell is it completely different from every other game action he’s taken this game.

do u actually think me making an immediate vote is unlike the actions i have taken this game?

i had one scumread i felt decently about on day 1, irrelephant. i could not get traction on him because people were townreading him for (imo bad) reasons and then he stopped playing the game and made excuses for not catching up. of course i am going to go back to tghat scumread on day 2. you dont get to start with a clean slate.

I'm talking about your vote on CMM there.

Your vote on relly was when i started to think you were town.

serves me for not clicking the link ig

i dont really have a lot to say in response to this, i thought it was appropriate to pressure the replacement because of his opener. i dont think thats out of line with how i play

I found it weird because from my pov every other action you took from the game was to cast doubt on reads. If I'm buying that you're doing that as town it stands to reason that the why behind it is that you're a somewhat cautious player who wants to be sure about reads and thoughts before taking action. So a player replacing in to a completely null slot imo and making like... What i thought was a pretty reasonable entrance, jumping right on it with an immediate vote seemed weird.

[Thestatusquo]

I scum read gamma until the ate stuff. Not so sure anymore

[Thestatusquo]

2608 and 2618 are scum AI.

2620 is Town AI (though easily faked.)

So asking you to explain a read that you're pushing now which i before the fact said i didn't understand is scum indicative. Got it.

:Roll:

[Thestatusquo]

ok baltar iso thoughts:
- maybe the easiest take here, but i don't think his interaction with datisi felt like partners to me? he felt a little like... worried. like he was kinda poking from a distance out of a sense of obligation but not really fully engaging. it didn't feel like they were on the same page or matching each other's energy
- irrel slot is believable as a partner here. nothing too bad tho
- same goes for firebringer slot
- i don't really see the marci read as clearing @scamper?
- the GL thing ehh i kinda am leaning town GL now, don't find the S/S take as compelling as i did originally
- i kinda get the feeling the way he interacted with the major wagons of the day means that one of them was on scum but im not really sure which. v helpful i know. he just felt slightly uncomfortable at times later in the day when he was sorting out which direction to go, like he needed to do some sort of action beyond what he would normally just do to get townread

I'm high effort in all my games regardless of alignment. I tend to be the highest post count almost always.

[Thestatusquo]

God i hate that quote feature on mobile. Was not trying to quote fire

[Thestatusquo]

I suspect there's an effect happening related to effort, Price's Law, the death of Baltar and status's alignment.

Also I'd prefer to be called Shea. If you don't want to do that tsq is better than status. Kind of hate status.

[Thestatusquo]

The quicker you realize I'm town the quicker we can move on to something more productive like you not answering my question about Dannflor and instead just saying i was scum for asking it

[Thestatusquo]

My understanding is that it's a pain in the ass to do.

[Thestatusquo]

Oh that actually makes me feel better by quite a bit.

[Thestatusquo]

Still don't like the numbers thing

[Thestatusquo]

I like fires interaction with me so far. Gunna town bin.

Not quite sure what to make of frogster. I'm still kind of taken aback by them to be honest.

Ydrasse disappeared before i could get a handle which is disappointing.

Nero needs to do some actual scum hunting instead of just saying slots are scummy with no reasoning. Think Nero likely town though.

[Thestatusquo]

Can you answer my damn question frogster?

[Thestatusquo]

yeah, I've been doing no scum hunting. child, please

Saying "I think x slot and y slot are scummy" isnt scum hunting.

[Thestatusquo]

It's vibes-squishy.

I feel like you're fact checking me in a way where you're interested in me coming to the right conclusions if I'm town. You could have pointed out all the same things that you disagree with in a manner that was much more interested in scoring points if thats what you were trying to do but it didn't feel like thats what you were trying to do.

[Thestatusquo]

It's vibes-squishy.

I feel like you're fact checking me in a way where you're interested in me coming to the right conclusions if I'm town. You could have pointed out all the same things that you disagree with in a manner that was much more interested in scoring points if thats what you were trying to do but it didn't feel like thats what you were trying to do.

to go a level deeper I guess I feel like a the motivation from a scum stand point would be to doubt cast me in a way that was much more interested in questioning my credibility from the stand point of doubting my alignment, which doesn't seem to be your goal at all.

[Thestatusquo]

Because I am unsure.

[Thestatusquo]

Pretty lame.

[Thestatusquo]

My understanding is that it's a pain in the ass to do.

Why not just create a new account and ask for it to be made your new main?

Why are you talking about this instead of literally anything else

[Thestatusquo]

Because you're wrong but I don't think I'll be able to convince you of that so I guess I just have to go the whole day with your vote on me rather than possibly voting gamma like I think I might want to do.

[Thestatusquo]

Anyway, game is winding down so I'm gunna synthesize this live session with my notes and probably make a vote of some kind.

[Thestatusquo]

its d2.......and its been less than 24 hours...

I meant the football game my guy.

[Thestatusquo]

You do not understand the town motivation behind me asking you to explain a scum read which I, during my catchup had this to say about

I just want to say I am extremely not understanding the dann scum reads. It feels like a whole bunch of people just simultaneously said “DEEP WOLF” in one voice and then all of a sudden it became common wisdom somehow. It’s possible I’m missing something in the skim but I thought his entrance was fine and I think the slot he replaced was non-existent (and I do not think, as someone who has modded a fuck ton of games, that replacement is at all +scum equity

Are you joking? You're asserting that a player is trying to lurk out the pressure without ever explaining why there ought to be pressure in the first place. This is important for me sorting both dannflor AND you.

Like what? Are you serious?

[Thestatusquo]

My understanding is that it's a pain in the ass to do.

Why not just create a new account and ask for it to be made your new main?

Why are you talking about this instead of literally anything else

Because I don’t see much else worth poking rn
You didn’t respond to my comment to you before, I noted

You're right, because I didnt really know how to respond to you dismissing my points like that and I figured we'd get to it later.

[Thestatusquo]

Because I am unsure.

i'm not sure why u want my opinion on it? i dont think the stuff u pointed out about her doing is particularly scummy, it reads like very minor things to me and she did a lot of odd fluff posting stuff in her last game as town too. i had her as town on day 1 and havent had reason to re-evaluate most of my reads yet.

Because I want peoples opinions on everything and that happened to be what had just come up?

[Thestatusquo]

I think I'm somewhere around here.

Town
Ausuka

fireisredsir
scamper

Dannflor
Frogsterking

Nero Cain
humaneatingmonkey

DeasVail
marcistar
datisi
GuiltyLion
xofelf
ydrasse


Obscure
gamma emerald
Somethingsmart
Scum

Ordered into tiers and then tiers ordered by townieness. The people in the 2nd to bottom tier are mostly people who I want to poke more because I have not decided they're town yet and the people in the third from the top tier are people who I think are mostly town but I'm not willing to bet on it.

I think I want to start by poking the firebringer slot.

VOTE: something_smart

[Thestatusquo]

My understanding is that it's a pain in the ass to do.

Why not just create a new account and ask for it to be made your new main?

Why are you talking about this instead of literally anything else

Because I don’t see much else worth poking rn
You didn’t respond to my comment to you before, I noted

You're right, because I didnt really know how to respond to you dismissing my points like that and I figured we'd get to it later.

It’s a point others have made and I’ve acknowledged already. You trying to dig it back up gives bad vibes.

I clearly don't find your "acknowledgement" compelling and today you don't seem particularly interested in finding scum either.

[Thestatusquo]

like the way sheas doing his read on me its like
down up down

isnt scum usually more conscious of that type of shit

Savage

I don't think this was an insult so much as it was an acknowledgement that my progression on her felt genuine? But maybe thats hard to see from the middle of a tunnel.

[Thestatusquo]

But maybe I shouldn't expect too much from someone who "sees no motivation for a town player to ask them why they scum read someone"

[Thestatusquo]

2676 is a scum AI response because I asked Shea to redirect the conversation in real time and Shea repeated the old question in order to stall for more time.

literally what?

[Thestatusquo]

Brain blast

oh hey you're back. What do you think of gamma and firebringer slot

[Thestatusquo]

I going to sleep

Null (??) Need eyes on
And secret just because it’s u asking...... hehe

[Thestatusquo]

Cool, now help me dogpile something_smart who just replaced in.

[Thestatusquo]

Deas could be, I guess.

I still think Shea and Gamma are scummy though. Marci is kinda ??? and isn't pushing Gamma anymore

you're still missing the why

[Thestatusquo]

Anyone have any particular parts of the game they think I should read? I'll probably do spot reads at random places, but I don't think I'd get much from reading everything.

You can read my entrance post for my post by post break down of the players. Obviously from my PoV but it might lead you to some interesting posts to poke at.

[Thestatusquo]

The dogpiling jokes aside I will give something_smart a chance to get involved in the game I suppose.

VOTE: Gamma

Gamma who are the scum and why

[Thestatusquo]

clearly Shea, in 200+ posts I have never ever once articulated why I find you or Gamma scummy. nope never. I'd ask you to stop misrepping me but then again it's just decent scumplay so have at it?

Please point me to the posts detailing it then. It has not been present today, that's for sure.

All I've seen from you today is assertions and weak claim about scum on the wagon which seems more like confbias than a reasonable attempt at sorting me.

[Thestatusquo]

UNVOTE:

while i am still very suspicious of the relly slot i feel like i dont need to dogpile someone who has just replaced in

i wonder if this is a direct reaction to TSQ mentioning that scum loves to dogpile replacements

this thought didnt occur to me but I love that it did to you.

This seems like a really weird observation for you to make if you're scum.

[Thestatusquo]

nah the point is I don't think it helps me solve him. If I do it it would be more to try to get him off my back than anything else but I don't see a lot of chance of success in that anyway so I simply wont.

[Thestatusquo]

it feels like you're trying to paint a non-solving nero but a quick ctrl+F gamma yields illuminating results

I was more interested in me and I am surprised you think I didn't already at least do that and find that a ctrl f for "irre" and "relly" does not.

[Thestatusquo]

Just did "elephant" and theres more but not much in the way of what I would describe as reasons.

[Thestatusquo]

it's also just kinda common sense that a 11 player mislim wagon would have more than 1 scum slot on it.

ConManMick (11): Ydrasse,

Aristeia

, Irrelephant11, Ausuka, Datisi, scamper, Gamma Emerald, humaneatingmonkey, DeasVail,

VP Baltar, ConManMick

ok well maybe not. I mean I guess it's not impossible that 8 town did a bad but I just sort of highly doubt that.

I have no problem with your claim that there are probably scum on a town wagon, I have a problem with your insinuation that my slot was that scum.

[Thestatusquo]

reasoning != evidence. Please stop setting the straw men on fire, it upsets the children.

[Thestatusquo]

reasoning != evidence. Please stop setting the straw men on fire, it upsets the children.

but it's not like I had no reasoning, you are either just flat out ignoring that I had any or didn't read it.

Yes those are the only two options.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain the dannflor scum read to me by the way. Frogsterking simply said I was scummy for even asking. Would someone else do the honors?

[Thestatusquo]

fwiw I don't think I've ever made that sort of entrance post as either alignment. This one determines my whole meta. Exciting!

[Thestatusquo]

Man imagine someone dredging up some game in 2007 or something where I did this as scum and GOTCHAing me. What a way to get misyeeted. That would be so iconic I kind of hope it happens.

[Thestatusquo]

The dogpiling jokes aside I will give something_smart a chance to get involved in the game I suppose.

VOTE: Gamma

Gamma who are the scum and why

Marci
One of you/obscure
humaneatingmonkey
And maybe someone else

When do you come by these scum reads?

I know thats a weird question so let me rephrase.

How long have you thought each person on that list could be scum?

[Thestatusquo]

You also missed a key part of my question, which I'd still like you to answer

@gamma

[Thestatusquo]

When do you come by these scum reads?

I know thats a weird question so let me rephrase.

How long have you thought each person on that list could be scum?

shouldn't you be asking him for reasons?

I literally did in the post he's responding to and was following up when you posted this.

Can you kindly back the Fuck up off me when I'm not talking to you at all? I get it, you think I'm scum. I'm happy to interact with you about that and I'm sure you'll vote me eventually, but do NOT interfere with me questioning someone who is not you and trying to sort them.

[Thestatusquo]

oh nero already did vote me. I just remembered that I called it lame. Anyway, gamma questions plox.

[Thestatusquo]

Did you push any of these yesterday is I guess the point I'm driving at? I don't recall you doing so but I did skim the end of the day pretty aggressively.

[Thestatusquo]

Did you care about who got flipped d1?

I guess a better question is, do you usually care as town who is flipped d1?

Because thats what I'm struggling with here. It seems like you didnt care who was flipped at all.

Like maybe you expressed some suspicion of HEM or skitter somewhere, but I didn't see a lot of evidence that you had any meaningful investment in getting them yeeted.

[Thestatusquo]

And now your scum team which you've now explicitly said was a team guess includes me and a person who basically no one had expressed any suspicion of until I brought it up in a game where the wolves just lost a member on N1.

Which doesn't make a whole ton of sense to me either.

[Thestatusquo]

ugh. you're going to make me go reread that nightmare of a game arent you.

:/

[Thestatusquo]

nope, I missed that word. Genuine apologies. Point completely rescinded.

[Thestatusquo]

Ok I actually did the thing and briefly skimmed gammas iso in white flag which is the team mafia game she is referring to.

(viewtopic.php?t=74687&f=127&st=0&sk=t&s ... er_sort=Go) for anyone wondering.

And I have to say...I find your day one play there completely different in a lot of different ways. And the most obvious one is that you DO seem invested in finding scum and flipping someone you're suspicious of. You DO seem invested in engaging with people about their reads. You DO feel like you're trying to scum hunt.

Now, its a team mafia game so everyone amps up their tryhard a little bit for those games so I don't think its like definitive or anything, but its the game YOU brought up as the one where I should remember as you playing like you're playing here as town is normal.

And its simply not. It's not remotely the same. It's not even close.

[Thestatusquo]

I went to TM 21 first but we didnt play together in that game so I assumed you meant 2018 where we did play together.

[Thestatusquo]

I skimmed among us where I modded you too and you are extremely invested in that game day one as well but not really in the sense that you're trying to find scum, although I still see way more prods at people than I see here, but that game you were heavily invested in a mech solve component so I don't think its a really good case study, just wanted to say I looked at it too for completeness.

[Thestatusquo]

Yeah but I don't know why you would think that would give me a special knowledge of you? I don't remember paying THAT much attention to my teams other games though I was skimming them.

[Thestatusquo]

Hi um I'm tired so I'm not going to do anything useful sorry

1) baltar owned

2) I voted Marci because I was pissed basically and really did not feel like engaging in that moment

3) I feel like you've brought this up multiple times and no one has explained this but @TSQ dannflor being a deepwolf is just a meme. The real reason people called him scum is because his predecessor did nothing and his posts were unimpressive

Why was it unimpressive?

[Thestatusquo]

I appreciate the explanation of the meme.

*points to sig*

[Thestatusquo]

I'll have to reread the posts but that seems like a slight mischaracterization of what he said imo, I think he was saying that town players do get overwhelmed and replace out with a similar level of frequency to scum not that replace outs are +town equity, which is something I tend to agree with.

Maybe I'm wrong about them though.

[Thestatusquo]

Yeah but I don't know why you would think that would give me a special knowledge of you? I don't remember paying THAT much attention to my teams other games though I was skimming them.

But I expect you to at least have a concept of how I played
I’m kinda trying to re-tune to that playstyle because I notice I’m getting nightkilled for play-based reasons a lot recently and I want to curtail that a bit

How recent is this retool?

[Thestatusquo]

also tbh being night killed in the nut high. I love being nightkilled.

[Thestatusquo]

Neros point seems pedantic at best even if I think gamma is likely scum for different reasons.

[Thestatusquo]

dannflor can you tell me what you think about the suspicions against you from day 1?

[Thestatusquo]

And hate to question and run but I'm out for the night <3

[Thestatusquo]

@tsq can you give me a short readslist on where you are currently in the game

I have done this both as a giant wall and as a smaller literally dedicated read list.

[Thestatusquo]

i also dont think sheas wallpost was towny

having a bunch of reactions to things is easy to fake as scum because you can just...say things. ive faked that sort of catchup before, and as a replacement its easy to do because you dont really have to have an agenda with ur commentary

but it wasnt actually synthesized into a cohesive worldview that shows an attempt to join those observations together in attempt to actually solve

now granted, it is an absolutely monstrous game in terms of length and he clearly did not catch up to everything, and i dont want to unfairly dump on shea for being behind


but i certainly do not townread him just for effort, and absolutely no one should be doing that when a player is reasonably skilled as scum

I agree that my post was not town or scum, it just was.

I would ask you to look at what I've done since and tell me what about it is scummy?

[Thestatusquo]

This is so fucking stupid tbh.

Some of you have to be town.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't like dannflors posts today and I don't like his response to what he felt about the suspicions on him yesterday.

[Thestatusquo]

This is so fucking stupid tbh.

Some of you have to be town.

What is this trying to say

There have now been like 4-5 people who have either expressed suspicion of me, thrown me in PoE lists or voted me with no justification at all and I doubt the entire scum team is just dogpiling me so its incredibly frustrating to know that like probably at most 1-2 of them are scum.

There's only been two people that I can see who actually had reasons for doing so (scamper and nero) and one of them (nero) has garbage reasoning like "relly white knighted an unflipped slot and that was bad????"

[Thestatusquo]

I can argue against reasons, but I can't argue against someone putting me in a random PoE list for no reason.

[Thestatusquo]

Datisi in particular voting me without apparently reading enough of me to know that I both made a giant post with my thoughts AND a dedicated read list today is probably the most frustrating of those things.

[Thestatusquo]

ok but to my point theres enough people just putting me in PoE lists and voting me that I am unable to conclude they're all scum, and the person I do think is scum, gamma, continues to coast by and is claiming now that his total disinterest in finding scum is just how he plays when all my experience with him suggests that's not true.

[Thestatusquo]

I agree that my post was not town or scum, it just was.

I would ask you to look at what I've done since and tell me what about it is scummy?

i dont have thoughts on what youve done since then. i have a pre-existing scumread on ur slot, i believe there is reason to believe it is partnered with vpb and i am discussing that.

however, i am willing to give u space to work and analyze things if u are town. i dont have anything more to say about ur slot and will probably be moving on to discuss other players. i dont really think getting in a back and forth with u about ur alignment is likely to be helpful for either me or u atp.

If you say things about me I'm going to respond to them. *shrug*

I don't have a lot to say about associative tells because I think they're a whole lot of wifom. To be fair, from my PoV I know I'm not aligned with VP so I know that the alignment arguments must be wrong but I don't really have a lot to say about them.

It's also worth noting that you're not the person I'm frustrated with here.

[Thestatusquo]

I do think you can drag up associative tells for scum and a large number of players in a game almost always. At least when I am scum thats something I'm conscious of and actively trying to subvert?

[Thestatusquo]

Is that a real question?

[Thestatusquo]

I ask because I don't know how you could have possibly found that post you quoted and not seen that it is in the context of me talking about how its frustrating that enough people are voting me and putting me into poe lists that they can't all be scum and indeed probably at most 1 or 2 of them are.

I will say of all the random asides to me I think yours is the most likely to come from scum.

[Thestatusquo]

Like that just doesn't feel like a real question.

[Thestatusquo]

Gamma why is HEM scum

he's basically felt fake all game to me, between the overly verbose post I called out early and his approach to me
there's also a slight meta aspect, he feels rather reactive, which I attribute to his scumgame

It feels like you're making a squishy meta feels case here that involves actively ignoring a lot of what HEM is actually doing in order to accomplish it, so the read doesn't feel real to me either.

To me, looking through HEMs posts theres a lot of stuff which is interesting novel thoughts on game and relation to the alignment of others that would be really strange to come from a scum player and hard to fake because they involve breaking the flow of the game which in some cases would be detrimental to scum.

UNVOTE:

while i am still very suspicious of the relly slot i feel like i dont need to dogpile someone who has just replaced in

i wonder if this is a direct reaction to TSQ mentioning that scum loves to dogpile replacements

Take this post, for example. Why would scum HEM feel the need to point this out at this time? Unless you think he and I are buddies there's very little reason that HEM would think this is a good topic of conversation for town to take, because it detracts from the momentum of the suspicion of me. Like, I guess you are saying that you think HEM and I are buddies because its a game solve but when I read back on HEMs iso theres a lot of stuff like this that individually seems like pointing out little things that are interesting for the town to think about.

I don't see a lot of scum motivation for a lot of HEMs posting, and I think its hard to fake because its not like not doing this stuff will get you scum read and the effects on the game are net negative for scum.

[Thestatusquo]

Basically I think its way more likely that posts like that come from sorting attempts than scum.

[Thestatusquo]

Maybe I'm doing the classic trying to convince scum they're scum by arguing with gamma specifically about stuff like this but no one else is engaging with me on it and I don't really want to let it get buried.

[Thestatusquo]

also is there anyway to get notifications for new posts?

I promise you don't want that.

[Thestatusquo]

I too would enjoy a vote count.

[Thestatusquo]

I ask because I don't know how you could have possibly found that post you quoted and not seen that it is in the context of me talking about how its frustrating that enough people are voting me and putting me into poe lists that they can't all be scum and indeed probably at most 1 or 2 of them are.

I will say of all the random asides to me I think yours is the most likely to come from scum.

...i have seen it in context. that is exactly why i am asking. saying that we can't all be scum means you think it's scummy, but also that you're aware we probably aren't all scummy. and i don't buy that good players (which i'm assuming you are) would do pure omgus and scumread people *just* for suspecting them, so i wanna know more of your reasoning. literally *what* about that questions seems off to you??

your 2950 in particular seemed to make a lot of assumptions about my play rather than actually read in thread what happened. which like, i don't think it's ai necessarily because town can also do things like that, but it's worth clearing it out with you and gaining insight on your thought process.

besides, you shoved me into the group that you labelled "want to interact with them more". i'm right here. what about my progression on you is making you think i'm scummy?

1) No, saying "you can't all be scum" is just me expressing general frustration at some players I think are town. I can be frustrated by a lot of things people do that I don't think are scummy. In particular one of the things thats really frustrating me is that I have brought up I think reasonable posts about gamma but people keep just completely ignoring those posts to talk about me in a POE.

2) In that context your question here doesn't make sense. I have explicitly called several of the people casing me town. I think I was incredibly clear that I DID NOT find people being suspicious of me scummy.

3) I am making assumptions about your play. That's how mafia works. When you ask me a question that I feel like I've already answered in depth (and now feel like you've done that twice) it frustrates me. If you say you're not doing that fine but I don't agree.

4) What makes you think I'm not interacting with you? I think your progression on me feels lazy and contrived. It feels like you were looking for reasons to jump on a slot which there was some momentum on. In particular I don't understand the point of your vote because in my mind if you're trying to pressure me to interact and be present, I'm already here. There's plenty of me to read. So therefore your vote can't be a pressure vote but is rather one that actually wants my elimination, and I don't think you've done any work to show why you want that.

5) "most likely to be scum" in a group of people does not necessarily mean "scummy." I feel like you're making a lot of statements about what I'm saying that aren't actually true, and are vague misreps in order to make me seem more unreasonable. I DO find THAT scummy.

[Thestatusquo]

Why is scum more likely to make a mistake about what happened in a game than town? In my experience that happens about equally, with maybe even a slight bias towards town because I think scum tends to be more careful about fact checking themselves.

[Thestatusquo]

its a mistake that relly goes "oh hey skitter, u r town b/c ppl are scum reading you for your intro." but no one was scum reading her for her intro?

Why is that more likely to come from scum than town?

[Thestatusquo]

Like what is the motivation for EITHER side to just brazenly lie about something easily checked like that? It speaks to carelessness rather than alignment.

[Thestatusquo]

Why in the fuck would town ever do that?

Why would they do it on purpose? They wouldn't. Neither would scum I don't think.

Hence my issue with you attempting to say its AI.

[Thestatusquo]

Like your thought process feels half baked to me here. You got to "town wouldn't do this on purpose" and then stopped.

But didn't stop to consider why would scum do it on purpose?

[Thestatusquo]

however, he soon jumps ship from the conman wagon and goes to push guiltylion, 2155. and then after he does that, the relevant vc is quoted at the top of this post. the interesting thing is, it seems that baltar just does not care about dann. i think, at the time when he jumped from conman to guilty, it was not at all a given that conman would go through without his help, and that the wagon wouldn't swing against dannflor. also, he kept using his energy arguing about scum!guiltylion, see 2324 among others. and i find it really, really difficult to believe that vpb and dann went "ok, we could push conman that half the game scumreads, but let's instead risk it and push guiltylion instead and ??? and profit" like ???

This feels like you're assuming your conclusions a bit. Another reason why VP might not want to push too hard in the direction of dann (Indeed, I think the more common explanation, even) is that they're aligned.

[Thestatusquo]

but when I told him that no one did that he doubled down.

Again I ask you what is the scum motivation for lying about something so easily falsified?

[Thestatusquo]

Like lets pause to examine your claim.

You think that scum would on purpose make up something that is not happening in thread in order to post a town read on someone in the extreme early game where if they just said "skitter town" with no explanation no one would blink an eye, and then when pressed on it continue lying about it?

Why? Wouldn't the obvious play from either side just be "oh you're right my b."

[Thestatusquo]

but when I told him that no one did that he doubled down.

Again I ask you what is the scum motivation for lying about something so easily falsified?

to whit knight Skitter?

But my point is you don't need to make things up to do that?

[Thestatusquo]

however, he soon jumps ship from the conman wagon and goes to push guiltylion, 2155. and then after he does that, the relevant vc is quoted at the top of this post. the interesting thing is, it seems that baltar just does not care about dann. i think, at the time when he jumped from conman to guilty, it was not at all a given that conman would go through without his help, and that the wagon wouldn't swing against dannflor. also, he kept using his energy arguing about scum!guiltylion, see 2324 among others. and i find it really, really difficult to believe that vpb and dann went "ok, we could push conman that half the game scumreads, but let's instead risk it and push guiltylion instead and ??? and profit" like ???

This feels like you're assuming your conclusions a bit. Another reason why VP might not want to push too hard in the direction of dann (Indeed, I think the more common explanation, even) is that they're aligned.

i'm assuming that scum!baltar, who sees his buddy dann in danger and townie conman getting scumread, starts actually pushing against conman, instead of having a whatever stance on both of them and instead pushing guiltylion. (who is much harder to misskill than conman is, where he'd be even more aligned with dannflor as they'd be voting together back to back, and where he'd be defusing conman's wagon and thus increasing the chance that dannflor dies)

I dont think thats a reasonable assumption because I don't think dann was ever in that much danger and ignoring the wagon is a blaring associative tell.

[Thestatusquo]

I think it would be reasonable for scum vp to go either direction tbh.

[Thestatusquo]

no one would blink an eye

but not very many did and even now I'm getting "it was a mistake." which just seems ????

Wouldn't the obvious play from either side just be "oh you're right my b."

but he didn't do that. I guess this is the first time in history someone has been wrong and doubled down on it.

Why is what everyone else does relevant to the alignment of irrelephant?

Right that was my point. There is no reason why scum would be likely to double down there? If anything I again think its slightly more likely to come from town who doesn't feel like checking than from scum who would be like oh fuck did I really make a mistake?

[Thestatusquo]

however, he soon jumps ship from the conman wagon and goes to push guiltylion, 2155. and then after he does that, the relevant vc is quoted at the top of this post. the interesting thing is, it seems that baltar just does not care about dann. i think, at the time when he jumped from conman to guilty, it was not at all a given that conman would go through without his help, and that the wagon wouldn't swing against dannflor. also, he kept using his energy arguing about scum!guiltylion, see 2324 among others. and i find it really, really difficult to believe that vpb and dann went "ok, we could push conman that half the game scumreads, but let's instead risk it and push guiltylion instead and ??? and profit" like ???

This feels like you're assuming your conclusions a bit. Another reason why VP might not want to push too hard in the direction of dann (Indeed, I think the more common explanation, even) is that they're aligned.

i'm assuming that scum!baltar, who sees his buddy dann in danger and townie conman getting scumread, starts actually pushing against conman, instead of having a whatever stance on both of them and instead pushing guiltylion. (who is much harder to misskill than conman is, where he'd be even more aligned with dannflor as they'd be voting together back to back, and where he'd be defusing conman's wagon and thus increasing the chance that dannflor dies)

I dont think thats a reasonable assumption because I don't think dann was ever in that much danger and ignoring the wagon is a blaring associative tell.

dann was the main competing wagon with conman for the most of eod, and at one point he was a leading wagon. what makes you say he was never in that much danger?

Maybe this is my skim biting me in the ass again but I don't remember Dann getting more than a vote or two, I'll go back and check though.

[Thestatusquo]

You appear to be right, Dannflor got up to 5 votes. I need to reevaluate that theory then.

[Thestatusquo]

i literally quoted a vote count where he was the leading wagon

I'm gunna miss stuff when I'm preferencing posting quickly and in the moment to diving deeply into things. I skim posts and then respond to them. If that annoys you I'm sorry but you'll just have to deal with it.

[Thestatusquo]

but it's your slot so I really don't care about your opinion since you are biased. I highly doubt that scum has never doubled down.

My claim isnt that scum never double down and it is frankly preposterous of you to think thats my claim.

[Thestatusquo]

wrt hem: i think nero had a good read on him day 1 when he said he was present but didnt really feel like he was doing all that much. it occurred to me overnight that there was mention of a previous game where he got caught fr being overly aggressive, and as there is some overlap between that game and this one its possible he was trying to avoid being caught on that same thing, but overcompensated by playing very passively instead. his push onto datisi sucks and is lazy, like he picked a tunnel target in the first 10 pages and decided to just stay with it. him shading me for unvoting tsq is also bad.

he posts about vpb, but never commits to a real read on him, asks him a few ez questions and fencesits. i dont ever get the sense hem actually tried to solve vpbs alignment

Spoiler:

Ari, Datisi isn't asking you so I'll ask on his behalf

did you think VP was scummy for not voting Datisi there? do you think it's consistent that Datisi would have assumed what he assumed about you here?

is it just me or ausuka and vpb has this

t en s i o n

UNVOTE:
VOTE: ausuka

oh there he goes

making the first move

VPB is your scamper vote serious

here's my early game list

Ausuka - likely town
scamper - poe
Juice - waiting for arrival
Datisi - poe
humaneatingmonkey - town ofc
Aristeia - poe
Firebringer - pending to mid-game
Gamma Emerald - pending read on me
Nero Cain - poe
Eiralox - poe
fireisredsir - probably town
GuiltyLion - poe

VP Baltar - poe

marcistar - probably town
xofelf - likely town
skitter30 - likely town
Irrelephant11 - likely town
ydrasse - pending read on early game
Dunnstral - waiting
DeasVail - pending question on datisi townread

I've decided Datisi is scum but we should let him live because he's cool

Datisi I'm putting you in the penalty box, you're gonna need to start wowing me with some better reads to get out

GL is top town read.

what do you think of Irrellephant, VPB

since we're both high GL, can we vibe and talk casually about the game

what do you think about vpb

At times it feels like VPB is just going down intellectual lines of questioning for its own sake instead of like, genuinely seeking an answer that will impact his reads - if that makes sense

this is exactly what i felt as well

im figuring out if it's vpb pushing buttons to generate content or scum trying to fake a push

did you feel as if vpb's fixation on your gutread was natural?

VPB where are you on this game

@ HEM - for me it's just like, why even put out a list if like 75% is just saying "poe". I'd probably just say "I'm TRing this person. Or so and so is scummy"

It looks like busy work to post a full list that is just meh.

are you even reading my posts

my posts are nothing but that

I'm only talking about your list specifically. Seemed useless, so why even post it? That's what I didn't care for. Think it was a good call out by Nero at the time.

seemed useless? how do you condense your thoughts in one post efficiently? did you even read it in context?

I count 5 reads out of 19 players. Zero scum, or anything generally that doesn't have the flavor of lukewarm milk. It's a pointless list to make other than it looks like effort. I know you're better than that.

to view it as 5/19 is a choice. first of all, if we're using the same unfair standards as you're putting in through, it would be 6/19. second, i dont understand, what would you have expected me to do? third, do you have better reads at that point in the game?

nero said i wasn't doing anything so i showed him where i'm at. why should i make a list later?

meanwhile this is the most baltar had to say about hem:

Spoiler:

VPB where are you on this game

What an incredibly vague question.

I am voting FB. You should too or push a more serious alternative.

There's a lot of faffing going on this game and I'm kinda bored

VP, when did you start thinkng that I was town?

Part of it is cumulative vibes from you being an asshat, which is consistent with my town experience with you obv. (Though certainly fakeable)

For example, your fight with ari seemed absolutely unnecessary.

I also remember feeling better about you when you said something about HEM's list being kind of wishy washy, because that was my same gut reaction when I read it.

I would feel better if you had actually called out HEM in thread instead of retroactively agreeing with me. Or did you call it out, I just don't really remember you doing it.

I didn't call it out at the time because I'm skimming along while I work and just repeating stuff other people have said isn't super useful.

As far as the attitude stuff, I can be a prickly person too! It's definitely not all on you. As much as I joke, I do want to avoid toxic fights if possible because it's probably good to be a grown up. Sometimes I think you intentionally make insults, but I think it's also maybe just your playstyle to try and get reax.


@ HEM - for me it's just like, why even put out a list if like 75% is just saying "poe". I'd probably just say "I'm TRing this person. Or so and so is scummy"

It looks like busy work to post a full list that is just meh.

@ HEM - for me it's just like, why even put out a list if like 75% is just saying "poe". I'd probably just say "I'm TRing this person. Or so and so is scummy"

It looks like busy work to post a full list that is just meh.

are you even reading my posts

Sure.

my posts are nothing but that

I'm only talking about your list specifically. Seemed useless, so why even post it? That's what I didn't care for. Think it was a good call out by Nero at the time.

here's my early game list

Ausuka - likely town
scamper - poe
Juice - waiting for arrival
Datisi - poe
humaneatingmonkey - town ofc
Aristeia - poe
Firebringer - pending to mid-game
Gamma Emerald - pending read on me
Nero Cain - poe
Eiralox - poe
fireisredsir - probably town
GuiltyLion - poe
VP Baltar - poe
marcistar - probably town
xofelf - likely town
skitter30 - likely town
Irrelephant11 - likely town
ydrasse - pending read on early game
Dunnstral - waiting
DeasVail - pending question on datisi townread

I count 5 reads out of 19 players. Zero scum, or anything generally that doesn't have the flavor of lukewarm milk. It's a pointless list to make other than it looks like effort. I know you're better than that.

why should i make a list later?

Because it might contain useful information later about your viewpoint later.


In other news, I agree with scamper that the Erialox wagon seems Zzzzzz.

Vote FB.

pedit: I see this is unrequested, but I don't care because I'm fooking trying. Datisi, I don't think your reads actually closely align with GL would be my takeaway. 4-5 of his top scum reads are on the town side of your triangle (even if some are lower confidence), so you might want to rethink how you're viewing him.

humaneatingmonkey

- the main reason why i'm townreading this slot if because his thoughts on me and around me make sense, see my 1343. otherwise, this seems like a... quiet-town game from him. what i mean is, i don't get the feeling that he's trying to brute force or shitpush things through, and i feel like there were several moments he could've gone more aggressive (like on his push on me) and did not do that. and my impression of him as a scum player is that he *would* have done that. so i'm fine lowkey townbinning him for now.

monkey is town probably.

he never really gives much of a real read on hem, just agrees with nero when nero calls his list bad, and then they have an incredibly tepid argument that goes nowhere. then somehow in a later post he calls hem town and never elaborates on why

so i think hem looks compatible as a partner with vpb, i dont have any good reasons to townread him, if someone who townreads him could give an explanation beyond "he posts a lot" and "has chill vibes", id love to hear it

I made a post in response to gammas scum read:

Gamma why is HEM scum

he's basically felt fake all game to me, between the overly verbose post I called out early and his approach to me
there's also a slight meta aspect, he feels rather reactive, which I attribute to his scumgame

It feels like you're making a squishy meta feels case here that involves actively ignoring a lot of what HEM is actually doing in order to accomplish it, so the read doesn't feel real to me either.

To me, looking through HEMs posts theres a lot of stuff which is interesting novel thoughts on game and relation to the alignment of others that would be really strange to come from a scum player and hard to fake because they involve breaking the flow of the game which in some cases would be detrimental to scum.

UNVOTE:

while i am still very suspicious of the relly slot i feel like i dont need to dogpile someone who has just replaced in

i wonder if this is a direct reaction to TSQ mentioning that scum loves to dogpile replacements

Take this post, for example. Why would scum HEM feel the need to point this out at this time? Unless you think he and I are buddies there's very little reason that HEM would think this is a good topic of conversation for town to take, because it detracts from the momentum of the suspicion of me. Like, I guess you are saying that you think HEM and I are buddies because its a game solve but when I read back on HEMs iso theres a lot of stuff like this that individually seems like pointing out little things that are interesting for the town to think about.

I don't see a lot of scum motivation for a lot of HEMs posting, and I think its hard to fake because its not like not doing this stuff will get you scum read and the effects on the game are net negative for scum.

[Thestatusquo]

Kinda just want to get miselimed so I can go back to being retired from mafia again but on the other hand I don't remember the last time I got miselimed so I guess I'll just stay here and keep fighting.

I see your post datisi but I can't respond in depth right now.

Marci my claim was that there is no reason why scum would be more likely to double down than town. Translating that into me apparently claiming "scum have never doubled down" is, again quite frankly, stupid.

[Thestatusquo]

Gamma why is HEM scum

he's basically felt fake all game to me, between the overly verbose post I called out early and his approach to me
there's also a slight meta aspect, he feels rather reactive, which I attribute to his scumgame

It feels like you're making a squishy meta feels case here that involves actively ignoring a lot of what HEM is actually doing in order to accomplish it, so the read doesn't feel real to me either.

To me, looking through HEMs posts theres a lot of stuff which is interesting novel thoughts on game and relation to the alignment of others that would be really strange to come from a scum player and hard to fake because they involve breaking the flow of the game which in some cases would be detrimental to scum.

UNVOTE:

while i am still very suspicious of the relly slot i feel like i dont need to dogpile someone who has just replaced in

i wonder if this is a direct reaction to TSQ mentioning that scum loves to dogpile replacements

Take this post, for example. Why would scum HEM feel the need to point this out at this time? Unless you think he and I are buddies there's very little reason that HEM would think this is a good topic of conversation for town to take, because it detracts from the momentum of the suspicion of me. Like, I guess you are saying that you think HEM and I are buddies because its a game solve but when I read back on HEMs iso theres a lot of stuff like this that individually seems like pointing out little things that are interesting for the town to think about.

I don't see a lot of scum motivation for a lot of HEMs posting, and I think its hard to fake because its not like not doing this stuff will get you scum read and the effects on the game are net negative for scum.

that post is haasically awful shade on me for nonsense reasons, how the hell is it tony

I clearly disagree with that perspective.

[Thestatusquo]

wjy?

theyre defending each other for poor reasons

hem is trying to attack/discredit sheas detractors

irrelephant gave that awful post count read on hem and townread him for no good reason

hem also townreadirrelephant for awful reasons initially

hem swearing at shea on entry was absurdly theatrical and they backed down quickly and since then hes basically made no effort to interact with tsq

Because I want to get the ball rolling on this early because I already see the miselim writing on the wall here, what is your take on all of that with the context of me flipping town. Get you started on day 3 early.

[Thestatusquo]

1) No, saying "you can't all be scum" is just me expressing general frustration at some players I think are town.

...really. in like, all of contexts i've seen that phrasing used, it's meant to mean "i think the shit you all are doing is scummy, but i know you can't all be scum, so at least some of you are town doing scummy shit". like, if you're frustrated about something, that's fine and valid and whatever. but saying "you can't all be scum" and then claiming it's unreasonable to conclude that you were calling those actions scummy is ???

2) In that context your question here doesn't make sense. I have explicitly called several of the people casing me town. I think I was incredibly clear that I DID NOT find people being suspicious of me scummy.

sorry for not remembering the entirety of your list off the top of my head to know that you did not actually mean to call that action scummy, i guess?

4) What makes you think I'm not interacting with you? I think your progression on me feels lazy and contrived. It feels like you were looking for reasons to jump on a slot which there was some momentum on. In particular I don't understand the point of your vote because in my mind if you're trying to pressure me to interact and be present, I'm already here. There's plenty of me to read. So therefore your vote can't be a pressure vote but is rather one that actually wants my elimination, and I don't think you've done any work to show why you want that.

the fact that you dismissed me rather than asking about my thoughts. i've been scumreading your slot for a long long time now, and i don't expect you to answer for your predecessor obviously, but what about my progression on your slot is actually off to you?

for one, i don't like not voting. i also like gauging reactions to votes. if there's a wagon on you, it forces people to take stances. and no, i wouldn't necessarily mind it if you died. but saying that i need to show my work on why i want your slot dead when i've talked about irrel a bunch on day 1, is, uh. frustrating.

1) I'm sorry that my way of expressing myself doesn't match your meta beliefs? You could have just asked me.

2) This is a slimy point. My claim wasn't that you should remember everyone on the lists, but a big part of my progression on scamper, for instance, which was a big part of what I had been talking about was that I started to town read them right around when they started casing me. And I also said I thought nero was likely town even though I thought and still think his arguments are god awful. Those were pretty much the loudest two people in the thread calling me scum so to claim that somehow knowing that when you are literally talking about how I am interacting with people who find my scummy is somehow unreasonable and requires you to remember some huge list of people is just a huge misrepresentation of what I am saying. The post of reads that you asked for you might have also noticed had scamper as one of my top town reads on it so like...I don't think its unreasonable at all for me to think you should know that I have not been suggesting people attacking me is scummy.

3) You say you've been scum reading irrel for a long time but I just went back and looked at your iso with ctrl f and I can't find an explanation. Perhaps I'm missing it. If thats the case link me to you "showing your work" earlier and if its not then I reiterate show your work.

[Thestatusquo]

To be clear: I see you voting them. I see your triangle. But what I don't see are the juicy juicy reasons which have still been absent from your play today.

[Thestatusquo]

And can someone for the love of god please talk to me about gamma and the meta.

[Thestatusquo]

Eh, fuck it VOTE: thestatusquo

Game isn't going anywhere until you flip me so might as well just do it. It's distracting the game too much.

I'll continue to be here and post thoughts.

[Thestatusquo]

Tomorrow look at Gamma with any degree of seriousness.

I also am low key worried about ydrasse, something_smart, guiltylion, dannflor

[Thestatusquo]

I also am more worried about deasvail the more he continues to just exist on the periphery.

[Thestatusquo]

No one is interacting with what I'm saying or taking me seriously so if the way I have to get my reads actually considered is to be elimmed then thats what I'll do.

I'll also enjoy Nero and frogster being wrong but I don't think either of them are the type to admit when they're wrong.

[Thestatusquo]

Eh, fuck it VOTE: thestatusquo

Game isn't going anywhere until you flip me so might as well just do it. It's distracting the game too much.

I'll continue to be here and post thoughts.

Why dude we've been in this day for like 10 minutes

And the only people who have said I'm town are you and marci and not a single one of the things I've said about people being scum are being taken seriously so frankly I see the writing on the wall and since I'm the biggest road block in the POE lists the only thing that makes sense is to remove me from them.

[Thestatusquo]

And can someone for the love of god please talk to me about gamma and the meta.

ig this doesn't include me but what are you specifically talking about w this?

You don't play like this as town. You do not frequently show no interest in the elimination day one. Every experience I have with you does not match that description of your play and you're acting like its some obvious thing I should know because of a team game I was not even a part of ignoring the two examples of contrary play in order to do so and then claiming that the change happened like recently so how is it even relevant?

[Thestatusquo]

Well Datisi we seem to be at an impasse then because I can't speak to my predecessors reads or progressions except to say that town players frequently have bad reads and progressions.

[Thestatusquo]

shea, i'm down to discuss the gamma read w you if you want. but i really need something more interesting than "gamma isn't playing the game" because that meta point isn't that convincing to me.

I don't think thats really what my claim on gamma was, it was that she seemed completely disinterested in who the flip day one was and to some extent feels that same way today.

Thats why I asked her when she came by those reads because it seemed to me that if the answer was yesterday we would have seen any effort at all at pursuing them but that effort is completely absent.

In the course of this conversation gamma said that I should know better than to read them for this reason, and pointed to a game we didnt even play together as an example (an example that I don't think matches either) to which I counter with two games where gamma WAS town and DID care about the elimination and discussion their reads.

[Thestatusquo]

Well Datisi we seem to be at an impasse then because I can't speak to my predecessors reads or progressions except to say that town players frequently have bad reads and progressions.

i don't care about you answering for irrel. i care about you explaining how the posts i quoted make you (or don't make you) change your read on me, and why.

I dont think I have a good read on you. I missed that you were mostly agreeing with scampers case, but I find it hard to put a lot of credence in the case on irrelephant because it seems to rely on one, their state of mind, which I cant speak to, and two, them having some amount of bad faith towards interacting with you which I know they didnt have because I can see the color of my role PM.

[Thestatusquo]

No one is interacting with what I'm saying or taking me seriously so if the way I have to get my reads actually considered is to be elimmed then thats what I'll do.

I doubt anyone is going to consider your reads very heavily if you get elimmed, especially if you go out doing this.

The exception maybe is if you start yelling "AFTER I DIE KILL X". But if you want to do that, at least try to push through X today and force a 1v1.

Tomorrow look at Gamma with any degree of seriousness.

I also am low key worried about ydrasse, something_smart, guiltylion, dannflor

Don't feel like getting into a 1v1 because I don't feel strongly enough about any read to do that.

[Thestatusquo]

And can someone for the love of god please talk to me about gamma and the meta.

ig this doesn't include me but what are you specifically talking about w this?

You don't play like this as town. You do not frequently show no interest in the elimination day one. Every experience I have with you does not match that description of your play and you're acting like its some obvious thing I should know because of a team game I was not even a part of ignoring the two examples of contrary play in order to do so and then claiming that the change happened like recently so how is it even relevant?

I literally sold my vote to the highest bidder in TM2021 D1
TM2018 was back when I had tons of effort to play with, and Among Us the mech aspect drew me into things
Like, you're trying to claim I'm scum for not playing like a game from 4 years ago when I feel like I have had meta shifts happen multiple times over
And like, you said meta is trash earlier, and have been derisive of meta pretty evenly this game, so what the fuck is it about your case that makes it exist above that decree?
VOTE: TSQ / Shea
I feel like there's too much out of place in how you're treating me here. I wanted to rustle marci's feathers a bit more but that'll have to wait.

this is a giant misrepresentation of my point. My claim isn't that you are scum because you arent playing like games from 4 years ago, my claim is that you're scum because you don't care who is eliminated. The meta point is simply because you told me that this is normal for you and I sincerely do not believe that it is.

[Thestatusquo]

Like holy hell my case on you is not meta. My meta is simply a refutation of your meta. My case on you is that you're not doing anything to impact the eliminations of this game.

[Thestatusquo]

Deas is off the table for me today

and the next step is why.

Come on, I KNOW you can do it.

[Thestatusquo]

To be fair you did give reasons eventually, they were just shit.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm honestly really looking forward to your cognitive dissonance kicking in when I flip green.

[Thestatusquo]

???

If you were to flip green then its like 70% on me for misreading relly and 30% on him for not being accurate in thread. IDK, you were the one that claimed I never gave any reasoning for scumreading your slot, and then when I pointed out that I did you just said it was garbage. You were wrong and you can't admit it.

Last reply because I'm not particularly interested in this slap fight because I think you're town but they are garbage. Utterly atrocious.

[Thestatusquo]

And can someone for the love of god please talk to me about gamma and the meta.

ig this doesn't include me but what are you specifically talking about w this?

You don't play like this as town. You do not frequently show no interest in the elimination day one. Every experience I have with you does not match that description of your play and you're acting like its some obvious thing I should know because of a team game I was not even a part of ignoring the two examples of contrary play in order to do so and then claiming that the change happened like recently so how is it even relevant?

I literally sold my vote to the highest bidder in TM2021 D1
TM2018 was back when I had tons of effort to play with, and Among Us the mech aspect drew me into things
Like, you're trying to claim I'm scum for not playing like a game from 4 years ago when I feel like I have had meta shifts happen multiple times over
And like, you said meta is trash earlier, and have been derisive of meta pretty evenly this game, so what the fuck is it about your case that makes it exist above that decree?
VOTE: TSQ / Shea
I feel like there's too much out of place in how you're treating me here. I wanted to rustle marci's feathers a bit more but that'll have to wait.

this is a giant misrepresentation of my point. My claim isn't that you are scum because you arent playing like games from 4 years ago, my claim is that you're scum because you don't care who is eliminated. The meta point is simply because you told me that this is normal for you and I sincerely do not believe that it is.

I'm not saying I'm like this in every game now, but it's 100% in my townrange so you pushing me for it is bad.
And before you get pissed that I used the term townrange, I'm not the type to claim a whole bunch of stuff is outside my townrange/scumrange. I actually try to blur the line as much as possible between those.

Please point me to a game where you were completely uninterested in the flips day 1 that is recent.

[Thestatusquo]

Alternately, you could show that you care about who dies here outside of this omgus nonsense and start showing me I'm wrong about you not caring.

[Thestatusquo]

Like I would describe your play this game using two words: Disinterest in finding scum and self preservation.

Even if you do somehow show me that this is normal for you as town I'm still going to vote it because that perfectly describes scum game play.

[Thestatusquo]

*descriptors, not words.

[Thestatusquo]

shea, is there a reason why you're pushing primarily gamma for that, when i feel like multiple people this game could fit that description to a similar degree?

Because gamma is the biggest example to my mind and also the one I think I might get some traction on.

Who are the others in your mind?

[Thestatusquo]

Like most of the others I can think of are either replace outs with weird participation patters or people who are otherwise difficult for me to understand in general (marci being the biggest example here) but I feel like even in those cases gammas absolute lack of interest in being part of determining the flip day 1 stands out as the most egregious case but I'm interested in hearing who else you think fits that description.

[Thestatusquo]

marci primarily, xof and deas to a smaller degree

(to be clear, this is not me claiming they're scum for it)

i townbinned gamma for tone, but i can retake a look. anything specific you'd point out from his iso that illustrates your point? (ik you're accusing them of lack of caring, but i am lazy and don't feel like rereading a huge portion of the game if i don't have to.)

As it so happens I'm also mostly concerned about Deas for very similar reasons.

Marci I do not really know how to read but I feel like she has made a lot more statements about her preferences than gamma has even if she hasn't done a whole lot to realize them.

Xof is lurking to some degree and I'm not super interested in pursuing a lurker slot right now.

I don't really know what to say about what to look for except its a body of work thing. I cant really point to specific examples of something NOT being there, you know? Best I can do is to read the body of work for day one and ask yourself if you felt gamma ever showed any interest in determining who was scum and getting them eliminated.

What about the tone town binned them for you?

[Thestatusquo]

No, I know what you're talking about. I pointed out the same thing in my big wall post. I think at the time I said its the first thing gamma has done that reminded me of his town game.

[Thestatusquo]

But I'm not like a gamma expert and I suspect that gamma probably knows that he's an emotional player as town at times and is capable of faking that as scum.

[Thestatusquo]

Tbh i think it's possible Marci is scum because i sent her a song on discord last night and she never responded.

[Thestatusquo]

Not scum in a game sense. Scum in a rude sense.

[Thestatusquo]

Here is the song if anyone wants to use it to read my alignment:

[Thestatusquo]

But I'm not like a gamma expert and I suspect that gamma probably knows that he's an emotional player as town at times and is capable of faking that as scum.

are you for real my guy
I feel like, despite it maybe not coming up directly, it should have osmosed to you atp that I don't fake emotions, at least not the deep ones. I'll admit I'll get up to some chest-puffing at times but if I'm expressing a particular emotional state, you can take it to the bank that it's genuine.
For instance, the feeling of betrayal I felt towards marci when she said I was lurking: that is the sort of thing that is always gonna be real.

self meta self meta self meta self meta

[Thestatusquo]

I see you said a bunch of other stuff to me too but I just got home from work so I'm not going to look at it for a bit.

[Thestatusquo]

But like I'll just say to further reinforce the snarky point that I was making by just saying self meta over and over again that you trying to act all indignant that I think "if gamma knows he does something primarily as town he would attempt to balance it by also doing it as scum." when I think thats one of the most reasonable things to say in a game of mafia.

Especially because, in the post I'm responding to, you clearly are aware of your proclivity towards emotional response.

[Thestatusquo]

I would argue that if you are aware of this and don't try to balance it by including it in your scum game thats borderline breaking the rules of the game, especially by bringing it up as a reason to town read you yourself.

[Thestatusquo]

Then how can we possibly town read you for displaying an emotional response?

[Thestatusquo]

Ok but self voting like you did here is advancing an agenda. I'm advancing an agenda with my self vote too.

[Thestatusquo]

Are you trying to pocket me?

[Thestatusquo]

I'm unsure why dannflor is basically parroting my points re gamma but does not seem to give any indication that he knows I'm making them.

[Thestatusquo]

thats weird temporally because it felt like you started making these arguments directly after I made them but I guess I'll just file that away under weirdness for now.

[Thestatusquo]

shea forgive me if you've already stated this recently but who are your other primary not-gamma suspects?

I think you should go read my iso starting from about Post #3067 (isolation #137)

But for the purpose of brevity, I said "I also am low key worried about ydrasse, something_smart, guiltylion, dannflor" and "I also am more worried about deasvail the more he continues to just exist on the periphery."

Part of the worry about you is that you sort of feel like you've taken a parrot-y pockety tone with me since you've come back into the thread and I worry that I'm pretty susceptible to that right now with how annoyed I am at the game. It's something I noticed with datisi too as soon as I did the whole self vote thing where his tone with me shifted on a dime.

It's possible with that one I'm reading nefarious intent into "just recognizing when someone is having a hard time and being a decent human being to them" in response but the thought has definitely crossed my mind here.

[Thestatusquo]

its funny that you describe it as "yeehaw" because its an accoustic cover of a ska song which is pretty far from yeehaw

[Thestatusquo]

I can't say that I like either of those but Marci's song is way better than whatever Shea posted

OOG do you ever just stop being a gigantic asshole? For like one second?

[Thestatusquo]

going out of your way to criticize my taste in music for no reason is you being a prick, yes.

[Thestatusquo]

Ska is like punk with horns.



That's the original.

[Thestatusquo]

i dont like lions but i like something_smsrt rn!!

why and why

@marcistar

I haven't read the Giant Post yet I just immediately skipped to what you said about me and I want to clarify something

isnt this a weird thing to do? like for lions, i feel like he usually likes to read it in whole instead of just looking out for mentions of his name.

I feel like a lot of people did this. I think its kind of just human nature to immediately go look at what they said about you.

[Thestatusquo]

I dont think thats an explanation thing so much as a "I dont think thats scummy" thing

[Thestatusquo]

I agree with Marci. I don't understand why you're so firmly convinced that "doesn't have a read on you" = "unwilling to have a read on you" rather than what I would think is the more likely option which is that none of your posts push her in either direction that much?

And the fixation seems weird on you. Why is it so important that marci takes a stance on you in particular as opposed to any other player in the game?

[Thestatusquo]

I feel like this is another case of assuming your conclusions.

What do you expect town marci to do in the case where she legitimately doesn't have a read on you?

[Thestatusquo]

Like I just legitimately don't understand this argument.

I don't think marci is like lock town or anything but I have plenty of cases where I have strong reads on a player one game and then nothing on them the next? I don't see why that's that weird?

[Thestatusquo]

I have to say I have no idea how to read marci. I find slots like here that spam post without actually spamming the thread to be like completely unreadable. Its like...Noraa but with a lower post count?

So I have really no idea what a 'normal' marci town game looks like. I guess I should probably go read one.

Marci, and datisi could you both suggest a marci town game for me to read that you think is representative of her play?

[Thestatusquo]

I'll look at it as soon as the baseball game is over.

[Thestatusquo]

marci is there a different game from the one datisi posted that I should also look at?

[Thestatusquo]

Datisi it kind of feels like you're only going after surface level things this game. Do you think that's a fair description of your suspicions? (I think its less true about some of the stuff you've called town)

[Thestatusquo]

though i don't think that's entirely true because just bc something is "easy" doesn't mean i didn't actually think about it and whether it makes sense

What do you usually do when you're not happy with your scum reads?

[Thestatusquo]

skimming this game marcis posting does seem drastically different.

[Thestatusquo]

anyone got a good scum game for me?

[Thestatusquo]

Can your engagement get less superficial tho

[Thestatusquo]

Is that a real question?

Why does it matter to me that a player in the mafia game I am playing is engaged in that game?

Doesn't feel like a real question.

[Thestatusquo]

No I would like you to play this game more. That is why I asked the question.

And this knee jerk reaction seems kind of bizarre to me considering my interaction pattern today is far from that of a player who is desperately making busy work in order to find things to talk about.

[Thestatusquo]

More to the point, I think the response is asinine and the claim that its in any way a realistic way of sorting to me is laughable.

[Thestatusquo]

And also I just decided I'd like to vote you to maybe maybe "life allow" a little more quickly.

VOTE: DeasVail

[Thestatusquo]

More to the point, I think what you just did is a far more reasonable example of "asking a question to appear like you're doing something" than what I did, and combined with the rest of your play I think I'd like you to have some fun little pressure.

[Thestatusquo]

I said more to the point twice. So we are twice more to the point.

Lol.

[Thestatusquo]

No I would like you to play this game more. That is why I asked the question.

And this knee jerk reaction seems kind of bizarre to me considering my interaction pattern today is far from that of a player who is desperately making busy work in order to find things to talk about.

But it’s easy for scum to say that someone should play the game more because it seems like a “generally good idea”. But in reality, what does a town player asking that actually expect to have happen? From your perspective, my reasons for lesser engagement could be alignment-related or other-commitment-related, neither of which are going to be influenced by you asking me to be more engaged. So my thoughts follow a path of “hmm does town actually think that’s a useful post to make, or is it scum just saying things?”

I don’t scumread it in and of itself, but it’s something worth probing imo, especially since you’re a slot i townread that has suspicion from others

Ok but in general the way I would expect town you to approach a point like that is to try to put it in context by reading the rest of my contributions today and seeing if maybe that should be a thing you should be worried about doing it. Instead you turned it into an attack immediately which was, in my opinion, attempting to deflect the question. That doesn't seem like a town mindset to me and like I said, does not feel like a genuine attempt at solving me but rather a soundbite that makes it looks like you're trying to sort me while not doing that at all.

[Thestatusquo]

And also I just decided I'd like to vote you to maybe maybe "life allow" a little more quickly.

VOTE: DeasVail

I’m pretty busy at the moment dude. This is me sneaking in some posts on a lunch break so I don’t think you’re going to get much more out of me right now.

Then die?