Open 545: Nothing to Hide (Game over!! MAFIA WINS!!!)

[SalmonellaDreams]

I don't like this at all. SD is kind of acting like he's about to get lynched here even though there's kind of an equal amount of suspicion on him as there is on anybody else. Then he gets self-deprecating with his reads, kind of like he's leaving the door open to sheep somebody on a mislynch.

I kind of assumed I was getting lynched but after reading more thoroughly it's not a sure thing. If I try to make a really bad, convenient vote, call me out on it.

For your other case in 747:

The TvK wagon was regretful. I was strongly relying on ABR's confidence, because for ABR to express such a strong read like that, he'd have to be pretty damn confident in his read. I was also a tad overeager to jump into the game.

Yeah, I've been lurking. I'm really bad about it.

vonflare made that really awful vote and claim request on anxiety, followed immediately by an unvote. Throwing around claim requests like that reeked of rolefishing and is what led me to vote him. I also really didn't like his push on me. It just didn't make sense to me and I couldn't just ignore it.

I sheeped onto Kaiveran's wagon because it was the next best thing and my vonflare vote was going absolutely nowhere.

vonflare butchered his night actions. The inconsistency was indicative of scum backpedaling when put under pressure.

[Aegor]

Also, SD is like 100% scum. Not only have his actions in this game been 100% scummy, he was town in a game where I was scum, and he is acting nothing like that game (lurky but generally competent). I almost never appeal to meta, but I am telling you, he is scum.

[Sakura Hana]

I've seen everyone of you point 2 possible scumspects, gun to your head, if you had to vote right now who would it be (66% chance to catch scum since i'm conf town?)

[Aegor]

SD

[Sakura Hana]

Did everyone else dissapear or something.

[Aegor]

Well, two of them

are

scum, so...

Sakura, given that you are the only conftown, your input is particularly useful (if not infallible). What are you thinking, especially about the recent exchanges in the last page or two?

[T S O]

I'm getting to this tonight, I promise, but Aegor, I find it incredibly hard to believe that after you were townreading me, re-read and immediately called me scum, I wouldn't presume you were lying. Really.

[Sakura Hana]

TSO:

I've seen everyone of you point 2 possible scumspects, gun to your head, if you had to vote right now who would it be (66% chance to catch scum since i'm conf town?)

[toolenduso]

I've seen everyone of you point 2 possible scumspects, gun to your head, if you had to vote right now who would it be (66% chance to catch scum since i'm conf town?)

Probably TSO as of right now, but I'd like to hear his response to me. After thinking about it a bit more, I'm not sure if my "dissociative" tells between the Aegor slot and the SD slot are really all that dissociative (I'm pretty sure the votes in question came at a time when neither was at all that great a risk of being lynched), so it's hard to say who would be second and who would be third on my preference list.

Also, did you read people's cases against each other and do you have anything to say about them?

[toolenduso]

Also, SD is like 100% scum. Not only have his actions in this game been 100% scummy, he was town in a game where I was scum, and he is acting nothing like that game (lurky but generally competent). I almost never appeal to meta, but I am telling you, he is scum.

Could you link to that game please?

[Aegor]

I'm getting to this tonight, I promise, but Aegor, I find it incredibly hard to believe that after you were townreading me, re-read and immediately called me scum, I wouldn't presume you were lying. Really.

Please quote where I was townreading you. And changing my reads ocmpletely after a re-read is nothing unusual, at least for me.

Could you link to that game please?

Mafia Razzie Awards

[SalmonellaDreams]

I'd vote Aegor because of Kaiveran's slot.

[T S O]

TSO:

I've seen everyone of you point 2 possible scumspects, gun to your head, if you had to vote right now who would it be (66% chance to catch scum since i'm conf town?)

tool.

[T S O]

T S O,

Vote fitz. Claiming VT and then changing to a PR deserves a lynch, regardless of alignment. Fitz's results are just as non-definitive as vonflare's.

You talk to me like I'm Town.

I will read through this thread today to find out. I am not liking tool's "case" on vonflare at all.

You call tool scum.

[Aegor]

I am talking to you as a player whose vote I want on fitz. I felt better about you yesterday than today after my re-read of the game. And I did not call tool scum in that post. You need to restrict your inferences to what is said. If I am townreading someone, I will say so. If I am scumreading someone, I will say so.

[T S O]

First associative tell:

....dafuq? I've yet to fully catch up, but wow.

ABR acts scummier throughout the day, culminating with an awful hammer on Anx, only to be NK'd?

This feels like a total framejob.

This is the first post made the day after ABR got NK'ed. It feels like Kaiveran preemptively saying "I was framed!" before anybody actually threw around suspicion based on Albert's death.

Following the line of logic of scum NK'ing ABR to frame somebody -- how would ABR's death frame somebody? Perhaps because of who ABR suspected? That list was myself, TSO and Kaiveran. So to me this is Kaiveran defending all three people on that list against suspicion based on Albert's death

before anybody has a chance to bring that suspicion up.

This has about three conditions that need to be filled before it's usable as a point. It's a ridiculous post to bring against me. This point assumes Aegor is scum, and points to you being Aegor's partner

100% as much as it points to me.

It requires scum to have killed ABR to frame someone - why? Why didn't they do it an earlier night? Etcetera. I'm not responding to it, and it feels like you're really clutching when you're using an associative tell linking to yourself.

Second associative tell:

I felt he came off strongly thinking that bjc was Town. I can't find the motivation to do what he did as scum: if it was me, I'd just completely lurk out twilight, whereas he was defending Desperado when everyone was mentioning policy vigging him.

Though the posts you bring up worry me. I'm going to look back over vonflare.

In the meantime, talk to me about Salmonella.

You defend vonflare, then go on to say that the posts Aegor just quoted make you worry and say you'll take another look at him. In your next post, you bring up a newfound question connoting suspicion on vonflare. Later, after the massclaim, you become the second vote on vonflare.

To me, the quoted post looks like it could be you letting your partner give you a reason to go for a known mislynch.

Let's start off by saying that you're a fucking hypocrite. Let me remind you that you immediately attacked vonflare for his claim; you made a long-ass case against him and mercilessly pushed him. And you have the gall to call me scum for doing the exact same thing as you? For re-aligning my reads in the case of a claim which looked so scummy it deserved an auto-lynch?

But, whatever. We'll go through this again, so I can point out to other Town players how doubly wrong you are.

I talked to Aegor. Aegor made me realise that my read on vonflare wasn't as strong as I had remembered it to be. I re-read, saw I was wrong and voted vonflare. Point out the scum motivation in this statement, tool.

Possible scumslip:

this is excellent. come massclaim, her claim's surrounding area could nail a scum somewhere.

The scum motivation behind this post would be to warn your partner not to be in "(Sakura's) surrounding area." The town motivation for it I'm not so sure of.

It feels anti-town, because why would you want to put out information that could let scum know where you're looking for scum?

You don't even understand what I was talking about, do you? This isn't a scumslip; this is me trying to warn off scum claiming Commuter because you can't verify the claim. This is practically a townslip.

re: the scum motivation: I would tell or have told my partner in the QT, not blatantly post it in the thread. I have never once coached in a scum game, ever. I am strongly against it.
re: antitown: It's not anti-town, and even if it was, anti-town =/= scum.

@Salmonella and Aegor: You should respond to my cases against you as well.

Wait a minute, you've made a fucking case on everyone?

[T S O]

I am talking to you as a player whose vote I want on fitz. I felt better about you yesterday than today after my re-read of the game. And I did not call tool scum in that post. You need to restrict your inferences to what is said. If I am townreading someone, I will say so. If I am scumreading someone, I will say so.

I need to restrict my inferences to what's being said? You never even hinted you were scumreading me. Once. At all. So I don't accept that since you didn't explicitly state it, it's untrue. Not now, not ever.

[T S O]

Aegor's attack does feel more natural than tool, I guess.

[Aegor]

Not scumreading you =/= townreading you.

[T S O]

Is there any point me talking to you?

[toolenduso]

This has about three conditions that need to be filled before it's usable as a point. It's a ridiculous post to bring against me. This point assumes Aegor is scum, and points to you being Aegor's partner

100% as much as it points to me.

It requires scum to have killed ABR to frame someone - why? Why didn't they do it an earlier night? Etcetera. I'm not responding to it, and it feels like you're really clutching when you're using an associative tell linking to yourself.

Yeah, but I know I'm town. I just happened to be on ABR's list. I'm not saying this is like smoking-gun, red-handed-type evidence, but taken with the other associative tell it starts to look like a pattern to me.

Let's start off by saying that you're a fucking hypocrite. Let me remind you that you immediately attacked vonflare for his claim; you made a long-ass case against him and mercilessly pushed him. And you have the gall to call me scum for doing the exact same thing as you? For re-aligning my reads in the case of a claim which looked so scummy it deserved an auto-lynch?

But, whatever. We'll go through this again, so I can point out to other Town players how doubly wrong you are.

I talked to Aegor. Aegor made me realise that my read on vonflare wasn't as strong as I had remembered it to be. I re-read, saw I was wrong and voted vonflare. Point out the scum motivation in this statement, tool.

OK let's be honest here, "mercilessly" is a bit of a hyperbole. Regardless, I see your point about the town explanation for this in terms of listening to Aegor. It helps to balance out my thinking on this point, but I still take it in stride because there is a 66% chance you're scum and I have my first point to think about here too.

You don't even understand what I was talking about, do you? This isn't a scumslip; this is me trying to warn off scum claiming Commuter because you can't verify the claim. This is practically a townslip.

re: the scum motivation: I would tell or have told my partner in the QT, not blatantly post it in the thread. I have never once coached in a scum game, ever. I am strongly against it.
re: antitown: It's not anti-town, and even if it was, anti-town =/= scum.

I took it differently. I didn't see the town explanation behind it, but now I do. It kinda makes sense, but it's sort of like with my second point -- I can't just let the point go because I have a town explanation to balance out the scum explanation. One of those two explanations is correct and I can't be totally sure which one.

Wait a minute, you've made a fucking case on everyone?

Yes. I'm paranoid about everyone left except Sakura.

In summary: Maybe my case on you isn't as strong as I thought, but that doesn't necessarily make it wrong. You're not off the hook. I'm going to look at a couple things for SD and Aegor now.

[toolenduso]

Fakeclaim

PRs

obviously. Scum can always fakeclaim VTs. The problem is that scum know whether there are PRs in the game, and thus can fakeclaim PRs in lylo. That is bad. In fact, that is exactly how my team won my last scum game.

How would scum know whether there are PRs in the game?

I found fitz scummy. My suspicion of him was completely justified when he claimed VT and then reneged on his claim after vonflare botched his claim. Your idea of pushing hard does not correspond to my own.

Yes. Fitz's claim was terrible and hella scummy. If vonflare flipped town, the most likely possibility to me was that Sakura and Fitz were both scum fakeclaiming. This would make sense since the maf clearly knew early on that there was probably no SK. Thus a fakeclaim could be delivered early, followed by another as necessary. And surprise, fitz's came after vonflare's, and directly contradicted it.

Vonflare was lynched for his claim, which was no worse than fitz's.

I guess what bothered me most about your push on fitz was that after I pointed out the town motivation behind it you kept acting like he was basically confirmed scum, and I didn't get that because to me it made sense that fitz and Sakura both telling the truth was equally as likely as both of them being fakeclaimed scum. So...why did you think that fitz and Sakura lying was the most likely?

I never realized I was wrong because I never was wrong about the setup; those were the only two options for the setup. I simply made erred in assuming that scum would not be able to fakeclaim PRs, which was not important (to me, at least) anyway. A massclaim in lylo means we could be trying to decide the accuracy of 4 or even 5 PR claims. That seems undesirable to me. Massclaim should

without exception

be performed before lylo. This is textbook.

OK, the massclaiming before LyLo makes sense. But I don't understand what you mean when you say scum fakeclaiming PRs wasn't important to you...?

#708: says he was never in favor of vonflare getting lynched, which is kind of a distortion of the truth. He said both vonflare and fitz should be lynched, and even listed vonflare as one of his scumreads in #634.

Total misrep:

And I was never in favor of lynching vonflare when fitz should have been lynched instead.

I was pretty clear that I wanted fitz lynched before vonflare, who proved to be an easy mislynch.

Yes, you said you wanted fitz lynched before vonflare, but you still said you wanted vonflare lynched here:

So... Obviously fitz and vonflare both need to die as soon as is possible.

Which contradicts you saying "I was never in favor of lynching vonflare."

[T S O]

This has about three conditions that need to be filled before it's usable as a point. It's a ridiculous post to bring against me. This point assumes Aegor is scum, and points to you being Aegor's partner

100% as much as it points to me.

It requires scum to have killed ABR to frame someone - why? Why didn't they do it an earlier night? Etcetera. I'm not responding to it, and it feels like you're really clutching when you're using an associative tell linking to yourself.

Yeah, but I know I'm town. I just happened to be on ABR's list. I'm not saying this is like smoking-gun, red-handed-type evidence, but taken with the other associative tell it starts to look like a pattern to me.

So this is an add-on to the bulk of your case, not really part of it, in other words.

Let's start off by saying that you're a fucking hypocrite. Let me remind you that you immediately attacked vonflare for his claim; you made a long-ass case against him and mercilessly pushed him. And you have the gall to call me scum for doing the exact same thing as you? For re-aligning my reads in the case of a claim which looked so scummy it deserved an auto-lynch?

But, whatever. We'll go through this again, so I can point out to other Town players how doubly wrong you are.

I talked to Aegor. Aegor made me realise that my read on vonflare wasn't as strong as I had remembered it to be. I re-read, saw I was wrong and voted vonflare. Point out the scum motivation in this statement, tool.

OK let's be honest here, "mercilessly" is a bit of a hyperbole. Regardless, I see your point about the town explanation for this in terms of listening to Aegor. It helps to balance out my thinking on this point, but I still take it in stride because there is a 66% chance you're scum and I have my first point to think about here too.

But you admit this point is ceded to me, and you admit your first point's an add-on. What gives?

You don't even understand what I was talking about, do you? This isn't a scumslip; this is me trying to warn off scum claiming Commuter because you can't verify the claim. This is practically a townslip.

re: the scum motivation: I would tell or have told my partner in the QT, not blatantly post it in the thread. I have never once coached in a scum game, ever. I am strongly against it.
re: antitown: It's not anti-town, and even if it was, anti-town =/= scum.

I took it differently. I didn't see the town explanation behind it, but now I do. It kinda makes sense, but it's sort of like with my second point -- I can't just let the point go because I have a town explanation to balance out the scum explanation. One of those two explanations is correct and I can't be totally sure which one.

So, really, this is null too.

Wait a minute, you've made a fucking case on everyone?

Yes. I'm paranoid about everyone left except Sakura.

In summary: Maybe my case on you isn't as strong as I thought, but that doesn't necessarily make it wrong. You're not off the hook. I'm going to look at a couple things for SD and Aegor now.

It's not, at all.

[T S O]

Aegor, it's time for you to step up to the plate, because if I don't see a concise thought pattern in your case here, I'll start the voting and be damned if I'm wrong.

[toolenduso]

If I try to make a really bad, convenient vote, call me out on it.

Does this mean you trust that I'm town? Because this kind of feels like you investing trust in me that it wouldn't make sense for town to have in LyLo.

Help me understand the town mindset behind this statement.

The TvK wagon was regretful. I was strongly relying on ABR's confidence, because for ABR to express such a strong read like that, he'd have to be pretty damn confident in his read. I was also a tad overeager to jump into the game.

Yeah, I've been lurking. I'm really bad about it.

...OK. I feel like these statements could be helpful when going through your meta.

vonflare made that really awful vote and claim request on anxiety, followed immediately by an unvote. Throwing around claim requests like that reeked of rolefishing and is what led me to vote him. I also really didn't like his push on me. It just didn't make sense to me and I couldn't just ignore it.

All right, that helps me understand your push against vonflare a little better. What's missing here is consideration of vonflare's actions earlier in the game. Did you take those into consideration when you pushed against vonflare the first time?

I sheeped onto Kaiveran's wagon because it was the next best thing and my vonflare vote was going absolutely nowhere.

vonflare butchered his night actions. The inconsistency was indicative of scum backpedaling when put under pressure.

Both these statements are kinda sheeping actually, but obviously agreed at the time about vonflare's post-claim actions. I feel like these statements should also be helpful when looking through your meta.