Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[borkjerfkin]

I'm saying the way she hammered looked more like bussing than my vote supposedly did. That's all.

What is your read on mala?

[Riddleton]

Ergo I am confused why you're still worried about it.

The mistake is still valid for Riddleton-scum; I make a contrived case for my newbie partner to bus him and swim in the towncred after. As scum, I don't really need to scumhunt that much, so all cases, ISOs and meta will be less in-depth and researched. Hence why I could have easily slipped and made a contradiction regarding my push on Victor.

Paranoia is still a thing and in my experience easily wins games for scum. I just don't want that to happen for us if we get to LyLo.

[Newbie]

Do I detect a scumread on Malakittens or a tu quoque fallacy? Justify yourself, Newbie. Calling out hypocrisy is not a good response, as there are very very good reasons that Mala's town.

I'm just saying it's funny how I'm getting accused of bussing by Mala when the way she hammered VD was really odd. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.

Vote: Wisdom

I didn't accuse you of busing, are you reading my posts? You aren't even in my lynchpool today.

It looked like both you and mathdino were accusing me of it, but if you weren't, then I apologize.

[Newbie]

I'm saying the way she hammered looked more like bussing than my vote supposedly did. That's all.

What is your read on mala?

Leaning town since I agree with her Wisdom vote.

[borkjerfkin]

The mistake is still valid for Riddleton-scum; I make a contrived case for my newbie partner to bus him and swim in the towncred after. As scum, I don't really need to scumhunt that much, so all cases, ISOs and meta will be less in-depth and researched. Hence why I could have easily slipped and made a contradiction regarding my push on Victor.

May let the thread breathe a bit after this just cause that seems the kind of crowd we have, but you're moving from specifics to generalities (I don't give a shit what could have happened; I care about what

did

) and on top of that campaigning that we lynch your ostenisbly town-slot instead of doing the natural town thing which is to scumhunt and hope people see your thought process as germane and genuine.

I don't get it.

[Riddleton]

You don't think I'm scumhunting today?

[Malakittens]

No, because you obv havent commented on the bulk of the mathdino posts that pretty much point straight to Wis-scum

[borkjerfkin]

Not my point. It sounds like

you're

worried that you're being perceived as such and are advocating an eventual policy lynch on yourself to allay that suspicion.

[Mathdino]

Alright, rereading Victor and Newbie's interaction downsizes my scumread on Newbie.
I don't know who asked me about Wisdom, but I'll get to that, because I will concede that the flip strikes him off the top of my townlist. I'll also admit that a good amount of my townread on him had a lot to do with the fact that his thought process is basically a quieter version of me, and we arrived at the same conclusions a lot. However, despite our equal activity, his conclusions on wgeurts, Silver, Constantine, and Riddleton ALL came after my own.

I know some of you hate this but let's do some quick NKA before we get into the meat of D2. I know it's WIFOM heaven, but there is always a reason for the NK and seeing who it benefits is good evidence, though it shouldn't be used solely to justify a read.

Spoiler: A Brief History of TTH:

1. Votes Wisdom, explains why later on (gutread).
2. (#94) Articulates scumreads on Wisdom and NM, shows confidence in me, acryon, and SilverWolf.
3. Argues with me and Wisdom about Wisdom.
4. "I'm currently working from townreads on Victor, Newbie, mathdino, Silver Wolf, wgeurts, and Malakittens for varying reasons."
5. Agrees that the scum are in {Wisdom, DukeC, Undertaker, Not_Mafia, blindmewithscience, acryon}, starts pushing a Wisdom wagon in reaction to the wgeurts one.
6. Spends time arguing with people about Wisdom and wgeurts, gets a townread on BMWS, and flipflops on Silver before settling on a townread on her.
7. Rereads the game. Her new conclusions: "I'm mainly scumreading Wisdom and blind right now though I have major questions about Victor. I'm townreading Silver Wolf and acryon in addition to all the townreads I previously stated (minus Victor). I'm also having doubts about my Wisdom scumread mostly due to his treatment of Silver Wolf, but I'll have to mull it over some more." She displayed very clear problems with a lot of Victor's posting.
8. Argues with Mala, ends up burning her reads and starting over. Ends up townreading Victor and having the scum in {Wisdom, FinnLaw, Constantine, Not_Mafia, blindmewithscience, Malakittens}.
9. Revises her read on Victor into a scumread, argues with acryon about Wisdom (this seems to happen a lot, lol). Complains about me agreeing with Wisdom constantly.
10. Burns her reads AGAIN. Townlist: {wgeurts, SilverWolf (now Riddleton), acryon, Wisdom, Mathdino, Constantine}. Also eliminates BMWS and NM. Scum is then in {FinnLaw, Malakittens, VictorDeAngelo, Newbie}. "Looking at his ISO through the lens of having Silver Wolf and blindmewithscience as townreads, I think it's a lot more likely for Victor to be scum."
11. Starts arguing with Wisdom once again, unvotes and revotes Victor. Scumreads Wisdom.
12. Flops on Wisdom again, changes to townread (no offence TTH if you're reading this, but making a history of you and Wisdom is really getting on my nerves xD). Townreads Constantine along with everyone on his wagon.
13. Ends the day displaying willingness to switch wagons if necessary, but arguing with acryon about her Constantine townread.

So what do we learn? TTH is very unpredictable with her reads because they flop so much, but a huge portion of her game was centred around Wisdom. She had no thoughts on possible scumbuddies for Victor. Her consistent townreads were me, wgeurts, acryon, SilverWolf. She never really commented on Riddleton.

Unpredictability is a very good reason for a NK, as it makes someone difficult to manipulate. TTH was very clearly difficult to manipulate this game, considering her propensity for arguing with people about her townreads, along with the fact that she repeatedly flip flopped on people

of her own accord

, without the influence of others. However, her death is directly detrimental to her consistent townreads. This makes me more confident that wgeurts is town, as her townreads on him were fairly fleshed out. Slightly more confident in acryon and Riddleton, although those reads, along with my own, weren't really as explained.

Who does the NK benefit directly then? Wisdom is the obvious person that profits off her death. The question here (okay I'm only going one layer of wifom) is whether TTH was killed specifically to point to Wisdom.

If you don't like NKA, you can really just ignore this, since I'm not going to use this to completely justify any reads. It only serves to help look at consistencies and inconsistencies.

[Mathdino]

Riddleton's advocacy for a PL of himself completely nixes the scumslip part of my read on him. This does not make him town, and I'm going to have to look at his and Silver's interactions with Victor in a sec, but I'd recommend people ignore his mistake when reading him.

Riddleton, if we're lynching you, it is NOT going to be a PL. D2 PL is bad.

[Mathdino]

SilverWolf:

Jingle's advice to playing scum, which Silver reposted in her mafia QT. Notable parts:
"When in doubt, just wait until somebody else posts, and analyze what they said. Basically, try as hard as you can *not* to be the one sticking out of the crowd, especially *right* when people are looking for someone to scumhunt for."
"When in doubt, just wait until somebody else posts, and analyze what they said. Basically, try as hard as you can *not* to be the one sticking out of the crowd, especially *right* when people are looking for someone to scumhunt for."

OH GOD. JUST FOUND SOMETHING HUGE:

Third, if someone (me or otherwise) attacks you for something, don't waste your time being defensive.

Just politely explain why they're wrong (once, and *clearly*), and move on to what's important: looking for *actual* scum

. The reason for this is simple: Scum subconsciously focus on their own guilt, and feel they have to defend themselves; town know they are innocent and don't put much stock in others accusations. This is why overdefensiveness is a pretty reliable scum tell in newbie games.

One of {SilverWolf, Newbie} is scum, both for this unwarranted WKing of wgeurts and for jumping on the easy wagon with rehashed reasoning. I don't think they both are, seeing as they voted together in a short time using the same reasoning.

Actually, my reasoning is pretty solid and I'm sticking with it for now. I am not really caring for the sheeping comments from mathdino or the comments from you either so if you guys get me lynched, I'll flip town, and be out of the game and then you guys can go back to leaving the new players alone-newbie, wegeurts, myself and

actually go after real scum

, unless of course one or both of you is scum doing this in which case, it would make sense.

It gets worse:

Fourth: This is a tricky one, and you'll have to feel it for yourself the balance for how closely you want to follow it: Follow other players' leads (including mine), but don't make it obvious that that's what you're doing. Try not to vote for the same person as someone else *because of the same reasons*; find your own reasons if you can. There are exceptions to this rule, such as when there's not much else to nitpick about them, or when the reason is so amazingly bad that you can't *not* vote them for it. For instance, last game I won as scum, there was a guy who quick-hammered *two* townies before they could claim. It was a no-brainer to vote him. And *not* voting for somebody that scummy is also bad. So like I said, you'll have to feel this one out for yourself.

If it weren't for replacing out, this would be enough to confirm SilverWolf as scum to me. If she's scum, then she's purposefully making her behaviour toward Victor unreadable, so I won't focus much on that. She townreaded and then nullreaded her scumpartner in her scumgame, but Victor acted a lot scummier this game.

Riddleton:

Here is one of his scumgames he replaced into. His partners are Anatole and chaoslord. He starts off distancing his partner but then voting another 'scumread'. His first signature case was on acryon, but a lot of that is because of Riddleton's (also signature) hatred for NKA. His first post with both his scumpartners referenced. Scumreads one of them, sorta townreads the other. Then he outright makes a case against both his scumpartners and proceeds to powerbus the 2 of them, saying they're scumpartners, and flipping back and forth between voting them but being adamant that one of them gets lynched.

Just like NKA, I won't use meta as a justification for a read, but rather to look at consistencies. In this case? Riddleton's behaviour is not in any way inconsistent with his scum meta, and in his scumgame, the majority of his cases were against his scumpartners.

Also, I just realised: His 'scumslip' that I pointed out earlier? Well, it ONLY works if Victor is town. Since Victor flipped scum, it confirms that Riddleton just made a normal mistake there.
So why is Riddleton so hung up on it? Answer: He's advocating for a PL of himself because he knows that'll never happen, and it gives him towncred to talk about his own lynch.

Riddleton's behaviour makes it unlikely to me that he's scum with Constantine. I still don't enjoy having Constantine in the game, but I think in light of the above, I'm willing to switch my vote.

UNVOTE: Constantine
VOTE: Riddleton

[Mathdino]

EBWOP: The 'notable parts' should be:
"When in doubt, just wait until somebody else posts, and analyze what they said. Basically, try as hard as you can *not* to be the one sticking out of the crowd, especially *right* when people are looking for someone to scumhunt for."
"Second, treat me as you would treat any other player. Don't avoid voting for me, don't avoid accusing me of something you think is scummy. This will be trickier than it sounds. Similarly, don't get flustered if I start attacking you; treat it as if anyone else was attacking you and defend your honor."

Whoops.

[Riddleton]

Regarding my meta, is there a distinction between 'being right about scumreads' and 'bussing partners'? The linj you've provided is consistent of my scumgame but I don't understand the conclusion drawn from it

[Mathdino]

I actually have an even more solid townread on BMWS because of it, whose angle was to immediately scrutinize your reasons for hammering and your reads.

Dino was a little more bombastic and less substantive

, but they both kinda read like they didn't know what Vic's flip was gonna be.

Agree on BMWS very much, he shares the top of my townreads with Mala. I appreciate your description of me

As a policy, I'm lynching off the wagon today, but I want to know why riddleton is scum reading

That wouldn't have been a OTT scumbuddy reaction

Maybe. I'm sticking to the mandate, and it is a good one. Either Acyron or Mathdino is getting lynched tonight.
I agree that newbie is possible scum.

There seems to be some consensus that lynching Acyron would be a good idea.

*newbie or mala

@both of you

: In the wise words of Riddleton's predecessor, "You really are a piece of work."

Get this through your head: Just because you two led yesterday's lynch does NOT make either of you town leader, and does NOT mean you're going to direct the lynch.

Constantine

, your wagon analysis sucks and if you've read more than 2 games on this site, it's obvious why. And there is by NO means consensus that acryon would be a good lynch, unless you mean it's the consensus of the angels.

Riddleton

, your read on Mala is baseless and inconsistent. During twilight you were even agreeing with Mala on VDA and accepting that we probably got scum. Beginning of the new day, you turn on her after your target

flips scum

. Also, I never bussed Victor, you're very wrong on that. Explain yourself (I'd have said that to Const too, but we know he won't).

To be really blunt. I had just hammered someone who was town and I felt really shitty that my reads were so wrong, so horribly wrong that game. I had beat myself up and figured that fuck it I'm sure VDA is scum so I felt like hammering and doing something right for a change.

Can confirm, this is legit, and this is town.

@borkjerfkin:

Okay, so here's the deal with Wisdom. I agree that his behaviour toward the Victor wagon is iffy, as is the fact that as shown in my VC IIOA, 3/5 of his votes were almost directly after my own votes and cases (the Mathdino vote was RVS wagon, the Mala vote was to get her to pitch in). Not once did he question my townread on him, and I think if he WERE scum, a fair amount of his behaviour was intended to manipulate me by validating basically all my reads. So right now, my read on Wisdom is a clean slate so I don't confbias due to my tunneling of him as town. I might be comfortable with a lynch on him later on depending on his D2 behaviour.

But here's the problem. I think one of {Constantine, Riddleton} is scum. Why would Wisdom distract us from a wagon on Victor, with a wagon on another scumbuddy? The move just doesn't add up. I'm only comfortable seeing him as scum if Constantine and Riddleton are both town.

Therefore, if I had to call the scumteam, it'd be one of {Constantine, Riddleton, Wisdom}, and one of {NM, Newbie, maaaaybe Finn/bork}.

Edit: Riddleton, I'm trying to answer the question I asked someone else yesterday: Given all that SilverWolf's done, is what Riddleton's done enough to

redeem

his slot? The fact that everything you've done with the slot is perfectly consistent with scum-you means the answer is a definitive 'no'.

[Riddleton]

i know you never bussed victor thats why I corrected myself in 993

[Riddleton]

i know you never bussed victor thats why I corrected myself in 993

[Mathdino]

Oh lol oops. I thought you were correcting Constantine's post and saying the lynch is going to be Newbie or Mala.

Still really want you to explain the Mala read. Like in your next post.

[Riddleton]

I can't defend my meta bc thats accurate -- Ido bus as scum.. just saying that beingsimilar to scum-me doesn'tmean I'm scum

if thays the majority of your case then congrats for misrepping a townie with similar metas... I'm sorry that being right about victor meabs I'm scum bussing him.

can't provide mala case. phkne posting now

[Mathdino]

I'm not using your meta to prove you're scum. I'm using it to prove that you haven't done anything that shows you're town.

Au contraire, I'm using Victor's behaviour toward SilverWolf, which is very much how he acts toward his scumbuddies, along with the fact that everything Silver's done is basically following the advice she learned from Jingle, to prove your slot is scum. Recall our misgivings with her: She sheeps everyone and disguises other people's reasoning as her own, she waited for other people to post in order to analyse that instead of introducing new content, and the kicker was her AtE saying we should "actually go after real scum" along with only defending herself once.

Tis also notable what Wisdom pointed out, that you townreaded Constantine for the same reasons you scumread Victor. Inconsistency between reads is scummy, and it makes me think you're looking for towncred. Like I said, there's no chance you and Constantine are both scum.

Your inconsistency about Mala doesn't help either.

[Riddleton]

There's no inconsistency with constantine... similarthing, but I viewed constantine's pists as tiwn from that but victor's as scum. tells arebt black and white...they can be different for different people based on circumstance.

[wgeurts]

Ug, forgot about this game, I'll catch up later.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom

, I need your read on Mala ASAP before nightfall if you read this.

Didn't manage to read it before the lock, but she got much scummier. I hate her certainty about Victor flipping scum, it comes out of nowhere. Victor had not done anything that scummy to warrant such certainty. And such a quickhammer does not fall into things I'm used to seeing from town-Mala at all.

[Wisdom]

Honestly, I think VD was willing to run up the time.

I agree with you and Mala with regards to this. The lack of reads / a defence seems to imply he just wanted to run out the counter to a NL.

I'm happy. I think we've lynched scum.

Dislike this for the same reasons. Apathy is not alignment indicative. The guy came from a V/LA with a ton of things to catch up and had a huge wagon on him. It does not make sense to immediately think that he's scum because of that.

[Wisdom]

K
Confirmed newbie is scum with victor.

Funny you'd say that. Newbie is actually following everything you're saying, and the belief she expresses here "Victor was stalling his reads" is practically a copy from yours. Yet you accuse her for being his buddy.

I think this is a case of projection. Mala is actually the buddy so she accuses someone else of what she herself is doing.

[Wisdom]

K
Confirmed newbie is scum with victor.

I would love to know how you came to this conclusion.

I guess this isn't getting answered, lol. I'm legitimately curious how I'm Victor's scum partner.

Meanwhile, Newbie is probably town for this insistence.