Micro 1091 - Prism v. 1L Year [Game Over]

[catboi]

nya

VOTE: cakez

[catboi]

oh there were pages after the first one

[catboi]

missed rvs due to lunch...a true trafedy

[catboi]

I am a scum vigilante

I believe you

[catboi]

Broadly speaking the vast majority of players aren't the type to claim miller as mafia, it takes a specific type of bold/risky player because most players tend to play scum rather passively. Meuh doesn't really fit into that archetype in my head and I'm inclined to believe her claim, her posting afterwards reads solidly town to me and I don't see reason to doubt that. pooky is closer to the type of player I could see doing a miller gambit as scum (i.e. more like me), but I think the way he's handled it with pressuring Meuh is

fine

and I wouldn't really push him for it right now.

I also think Bell's aggression out the gate and pressure toward elle is a good look and +town for him.

[catboi]

VOTE: ydrasse

en garde

[catboi]

lmao

[catboi]

What do you like about it? That's a pretty bog standard post from me.

[catboi]

do you really think i’m likely to be a scums here?

Do you think you've been towny?

[catboi]

There's a way of fixing that.

[catboi]

There's a way of fixing that.

dont tell me to try. i am not here for it!

I was actually implying we just kill you lmao

Thinking.
I do want to explore Pooky’s claim that he has only fake claimed miller once in 19 years. But I will never ever try to sift through his meta, even though I think he’s lied about verifiable meta more than once over the years, while knowing it.
I also want to explore Sircakez point about how Pooky might have told the truth when he announced he was going to kill us all and that he was mafia.

On the other hand, pushing Pooky isn’t very fun. Or rather it’s really confusing and my brain is foaming as it is.

*gurgles*

Neither of those seem like productive avenues of inquiry to me - even assuming it's true he hasn't fakeclaimed miller since then (and I don't doubt it), it doesn't really have any bearing on whether or not he'd do it this game. Again, I still lean more toward him being town right now.

As for the other bit, Cakez coming into the game calling pooky scum is so

pro forma

that I get literally nothing from it, it's the default behavior from him, he does it literally every game they're in together. I wish he'd given

something

that could actually be read as alignment indicative.

[catboi]

shaping view of game around assuming millers are town seems ? to me

miller claims in current site meta are town at a rate well above random (not even counting the very silly normal Dunnstral just linked) and reading into the personality of the players claiming and determining they aren't lying is pretty basic, it's not dissimilar to evaluating most other claims really. It's just based on whether you think the person is likely to be lying or not.

That being said the logic I used for it is trivial to fake as scum and I would probably play around the claims exactly the same way as scum, because it's easy to make that sort of logical point. Dunn townreading me there for it was puzzling but sometimes town make weird reads so I'm not going to do anything about it.

[catboi]

oh there were a lot more posts than I thought there were

[catboi]

I don't think that will be very helpful for me so would feel guilty making you put in substantial effort to do so. If somebody else thinks this would be useful they can jump in.

I don't think it will be helpful because I don't put a lot of weight into saying you would do things differently when we are this early into the game, and you are the one describing things and there is bias there. I think that mafia fake claiming millers is unlikely, and despite what catboi says I do think a track record of not fake claiming miller makes it more likely to not be fake in this game as well. And meuh was the one who counter claimed so they took an active role and I agree with the thought that mafia are less likely to do so, especially when somebody else is already claiming that role. So that makes me think the millers are town, and

your reaction to them reminded me of when I played the mini normal recently and the mafia made a similar argument against the miller claims

.

And I also am reading catboi and bell as town, so that has me looking at Elle (1L), Ydrasse, SirCakez, and GuiltyLion. And you Elle (1L) are the one who has given the most content to discuss. I am not disregarding the 4 people I am townreading for the rest of the game, I do think it is a good place to start though.

Thought push on elle was maybe a little unfair but I like the bolded line, fakeable but it's a decent thought.

[catboi]

i think cakez could be mafia

the pop in feels like it’s at a point where pressure could swing to me

and the reason is like the most basic. paired with his few posts which seem very… uninterested in stuff like the miller claims and posts after. like it’s a chance to lambast me with a refusal to talk about anything else happening or what could support his worldview etc.

Do you

really

believe that? No one seemed to be suggesting pivoting to you, I'm the only other person voting you, and I haven't even so much as expressed a case or strongly advocated for your elimination. That feels rather reachy.

[I know if I say "oh cakez is just being his usual self" he will be mafia, and if I say "actually he is kind of scummy", he'll end up being town. I don't think his play so far is alignment indicative.]

I do lean town on Catboi so far, but I also have the paranoia that he's just good at making content that I find very palatable and that I'll always townread him...

There are people here who can verify that I am capable of making reasonable sounding content as scum, but also I'm town this game so it's not incorrect to read me that way.

[catboi]

he doesn’t seem to care about exploring the content that could maybe help him parse a slot he often plays with and interacts with etc

this is a wild take because I can't remember cakez trying to parse me ever

tbh he kind of had you in that one pyp game

[catboi]

sorry bell, condolences, hoping for a swift recovery.

[catboi]

I do lean town on Catboi so far, but I also have the paranoia that he's just good at making content that I find very palatable and that I'll always townread him... I also feel like that's something I'll be able to figure out eventually though
Ydrasse I'm kinda conflicted on because the general, I guess position she's occupying? is one I feel bad about and gives me bad vibes but the actual posts she's made have vaguely good vibes.

like this i didn't have the context of existing when i made my post but it proves my point because what does this even say about my slot that matters.
"kind of good but in a place that is bad". how do people parse this in a way that makes sense to the gamestate (maybe it's a skill issue because it's nonsense to me).

the vibes of this game are that not much is happening, really. some people were pushing on elle and you were defending her, and that was about it. I was sittig on my hands waiting because I'm trying not to take control of the game. The Meuh post doesn't really prove

any

point, because her commentary on you were almost certainly spurred on by that recent discussion, and doesn't really come across as a pivot to vote for you or anything.

You are right that what that post says is inconclusive. Do you think it being inconclusive has any bearing on Meuh's alignment?

[catboi]

I acknowledge 287 as being correct on some level about the word choices Meuh seeming scummy, I'm just...not sure it actually comes from scum. It's a

plausible

read from Ydrasse, at any rate.

I think 294 from Cakez is a very generic sounding read that does nothing for me, but I think he comes off okay in his tiff with Ydrasse, and I'd even lean town on it? Just my feeling that the passion is real rather than a show being put on by mafia. Could be wrong, but I don't really feel like he's a good vote on Day 1 because he tends to get mis-elimmed as town a lot.

Would Ydrasse, as mafia, feel the need to push SirCakez early on, rather than building up connections?

It's not impossible

if

she felt threatened by cakez scumreading her and felt the need to push back on an accuser before she became a wagon - part of why I squinted at her accusing the game of shifting momentum toward her was that it felt like it could be an unconscious guilt thing - when you're scum you tend to perceive your actions as ore suspicious than they are and get worried that people are going to start pushing you and it felt like an exaggeration of reality.

Or she could just be a paranoid townie. I'm hardly committed to my current vote.

(also 314 got a laugh out of me)

[catboi]

I don't really have a read on elle but I'm not opposed to voting her. I don't have thoughts on Dunn having a read on me because I have almost no success reading people off how they read me. I don't think it's impossible for a townie to see someone reading the game the same way as them and call it town even if it was fast, but in terms of his other content it's been unobjectionable but doesn't scream town to me.

[catboi]

I was going to say GL fits the mold of having posts that are unobjectionable to me but aren't particularly towny, but also was kind of maybe possibly hoping to see more from him.

I do think Cakez is probably one of my top townreads actually, his burst on the previous page reads pretty genuine IMO.

[catboi]

It's not impossible if she felt threatened by cakez scumreading her and felt the need to push back on an accuser before she became a wagon - part of why I squinted at her accusing the game of shifting momentum toward her was that it felt like it could be an unconscious guilt thing - when you're scum you tend to perceive your actions as ore suspicious than they are and get worried that people are going to start pushing you and it felt like an exaggeration of reality.

Or she could just be a paranoid townie. I'm hardly committed to my current vote.

do you have any thoughts on what I said re: my impression of her scumgame being specifically crafted to appear carefree?

It's kinda odd you didn't comment on that at all, like what you are proposing as a scum explanation here is exactly the opposite of how Ydrasse plays as mafia in my experience

No, I don't really have anything to say abut it. You're overestimating the extent to which I believe in this read. (I know my vote is on her. I would unvote if someone else voted her).

[catboi]

catboi why are you feeling kinda passive this game?

there's been a few moments where you've said you're waiting for more or uncertain of reads and I don't remember you being this hands off last time we played together

It's by design, I'm experimenting.Surprised you were the first to comment on it. I'm trying to go with the flow more and see how it works.

[catboi]

what prompted the decision to experiment in this game?

I felt like trying to be a leader every game wasn't working well so I'd hang back more. Some reflection on getting too confirmation biased by trying to force my view onto the game.

[catboi]

[catboi]

I feel like elle is a good vote. I might be biased because she's been inactive which I don't think is alignment indicative, but I have more people I don't want to vote and I think knowing her alignment would be useful at this point. She might be getting replaced though and I don't want to vote the slot off without a claim though.

[catboi]

also i don’t like the suggestion of voting elle and saying oh it may be good when we have a week left and plenty of time for her to return or have a replacement found

Let's be honest: do you think anything will be accomplished in that week? The game already feel like it's ground to a halt. What are you accomplishing in this game right now? I'd rather some amount of forward progress in the game rather than letting it stall out to apathy. Some people had a scumread on elle, I'm willing to test that read because ultimately elle didn't really do anything at all with its time in the game. I don't find your defense of it particularly convincing.

I've already stated I'm perfectly willing to wait for a replacement for elle but I'm making my intention to pressure the slot clear. If the replacement towntells, great, I move on to someone else.

[catboi]

What a delightful replacement

[catboi]

Kinda think your replace in is scummy Luke :<

[catboi]

It's possible I have pre-biased myself against your slot, Luke, since I stated in no uncertain terms what my opinion was prior to the rep-in. However, I don't like the read on ydrasse, and I don't really like the push on pooky. The ydrasse read felt too free, too easy, assigning credit to a reaction that doesn't seem especially alignment indicative and I think most people wouldn't read anything into. Going after pooky there just feels like...trying to manufacture

something

but I don't think it looks like especially well thought out reasoning, just a very simplistic point about him backing down too quickly.

[catboi]

I have actually been incredibly town the last few pages you just need to open your mind to the next level

[catboi]

like gls thoughts on catboi exactly mirror my own. so they make sense to me. i just dont bother to question dflors townread cuz i think its tactically bad.

I do not think that it is unreasonable to not be swayed by Dunn's reasons. I wasn't. I still don't have a read on catboi.

It also did not bother me that he asked Dunn to explain the read, that is also reasonable. My issue was where GL went after that.

It did not read to me, like GL was trying to divine if Dunn's read was a plausibly genuine read or not, and therefore whether having that read was scummy or not. At least, I did not see anything about that coming from GL's posts following Dunn's explanation.

Instead, it seemed like he pivoted into trying to convince Dunn not to have that read. And he was not even arguing that Cartboi is scum. Just that Dunn should not have a town read because it is

possible

for scum to replicate it.

I don't see why a townie would actually care if Dunn has a day 1 town read on Catboi, especially one Dunn openly said he is not married to

Spoiler:

I am not disregarding the 4 people I am townreading for the rest of the game, I do think it is a good place to start though.

But there is scum motivation to stop people from forming too many town reads.

Maybe I am ascribing too much to the unsaid, but I thought it was pretty plausible that GL's questioning of Dunn was for exactly the reason of figuring out if it was genuine or not.

[catboi]

catboi I want to say is town but I'm worried he may be trying to pocket me so idk. Wouldn't vote rn but definitely not safe town

look i'm just trying to save you from being misyeeted for once in your career

[catboi]

I do not think that I am generally very good at convincing people I am town once I am on the "back foot" as pooky put it, and the thread starts being about me (to be fair, this is probably as true if I were scum as it is when I am town).

And seeing as how I hit E-1 already, and I don't plan on throwing myself all into "proving myself" or what ever, so I think I'll just claim.

I am a 2-shot Tracker.

So, yall can discuss if yall are killing me for claiming, or letting me live for being a PR, and decide on that basis.

And I'll just skip the hassle of trying so hard if I am dying today.

what's your flavor

[catboi]

hm, okay

having a tracker in a setup with (potential) millers is kind of comedic if it's true, but I don't feel like eliminating a PR claim on Day 1. Still feels like there's probably a scum between Luke and GL but it's not something that needs immediate resolution in my opinion.

VOTE: Dunn

I guess I land here: not really strongly townread by anyone but also not getting pressured.

[catboi]

Still feels like there's probably a scum between Luke and GL but it's not something that needs immediate resolution in my opinion.

Why do you have the two of us grouped together in this thought?

My feeling is you're pushing him and he's been pushing your slot, I don't strongly townread either of you, it just feels like dynamic where there's a scum usually. Either he caught elle and you saw pushing back as the only viable angle or he was going at you in bad faith and you saw through it. It

doesn't

feel like a town vs. town dynamic, at least to me.

[catboi]

Okay.

[catboi]

You said that part of it was because we were mutually pushing each other, and I counted that by saying that GL has not been particularly pushing me.

Does that change your take on whether me flipping town would bolster a GL scum read? Or do you feel like I missed something from the GL push?

Do you feel that way about us, even if you were wrong about the mutual push? if so, why?

Your slot has been the only one he's been scumreading, I don't think it's unfair to characterize that as a push. I realize your read of him is not primarily based around how he's handling your slot. That doesn't make a huge difference to me in terms of how I view it. It's partially also because I feel like other people have been towny and your slots were ones I was uncertain on and didn't have strong towntells from either of you.

[catboi]

VOTE: Dunn

I guess I land here: not really strongly townread by anyone but also not getting pressured.

That does not mean I am mafia.

True it doesn't but I don't townread you. If I'm wrong on you then either I'm wrong on cakez (entirely possible but I'm personally not going to vote him Day 1), or someone else is getting misread by people.

[catboi]

I think that I am convincing myself that GL is town, and that catboi is positioning to eliminate him after killing me for being a tracker.

Both because he linked the two of us together in a way that seems disingenuous, but also in the same post of doing that just side stepped eliminating inside the pair entirely for the day.

Especially when reading 502, and his pivot into Dunn feels toothless, like it was just The Best Option Left. Not like he even thought his thoughts on Dunn were Good.

I literally just said we shouldn't vote you Day 1 so I don't know where you're getting the idea I'm trying to eliminate you. I would only push to eliminate you if you weren't NKed and after a mass claim your claim was one we decided didn't really fit in the setup. You're right I'm trying to eliminate outside you two, but I don't think you're ever scum together, so there's almost certainly a scum outside you. In the event I'm wrong on there being a scum between you two then voting outside you is even more beneficial to the town for obvious reasons.

I don't know where you'd get the idea I'd be able to effortlessly chain-elim GL and then you or why you think I'd lay my roadmap for a path to victory out in the thread Day 1, that's totally unnecessary as scum when I can just go 1 step at a time.

I would agree with your assessment that I'm not being exceptionally forceful with my vote on Dunn. Why should I be? I have no particular reason to believe my reads are highly accurate, and when I try to force a case too much it ends up being wrong. If I really wanted to I could bullshit a case in 45 minutes on how Dunn is obvious scum and needs to die today but it wouldn't mean I believed it or that it's more likely to be right. Why do I have to have a scumread I feel confident about on Day 1?

[catboi]

If I wanted to manufacture a case on someone, I'd manufacture a case, it's not that hard.

[catboi]

I literally just said we shouldn't vote you Day 1 so I don't know where you're getting the idea I'm trying to eliminate you. I would only push to eliminate you if you weren't NKed
-
I don't know where you'd get the idea I'd be able to effortlessly chain-elim GL and then you

I was not saying that I felt like you were trying to eliminate me. I specifically meant night kill me, and then use my town flip to elim GL.
[/quoteLmao

I mean, I get it, but that's still very silly.

Why do I have to have a scumread I feel confident about on Day 1?

My issue is that you seemed more confident in there being scum between me and GL, yet chose Dunn.

Your stated position is that you GL is one of the lower people in your reads, and that his flip would give you insight into me, so that seems like the direction that would be more natural.

But you didn't go that direction. Instead, you voted you weaker read, and punted the Luke/GL pair down the road.

I have other means of getting insight into you besides voting out GL. I felt at the time you were more likely to be scum than him so I wasn't keen on voting him out. (But maybe I'm wrong on you!). If push came to shove I might vote him, but as I've said, if there's a scum outside you two it makes perfect sense to me to try to find that scum first. If I vote one of you out and it's wrong that's bad, if I'm wrong on both of you it's probably a game-loing read. So to me it doesn't hurt to vote outside. Night actions/claims will potentially help clear you up, if we manage to flip scum outside you then we can see if that scum makes sense as a teammate with either of you.

I wouldn't say I was more confident on GL being scum, that doesn't accurately reflect my position. My read on Dunn isn' verystrong, it's just the best I have currently.

[catboi]

ughhh i butchered the quote blocks i'm sorry, EBWOP for readability

---

I literally just said we shouldn't vote you Day 1 so I don't know where you're getting the idea I'm trying to eliminate you. I would only push to eliminate you if you weren't NKed
-
I don't know where you'd get the idea I'd be able to effortlessly chain-elim GL and then you

I was not saying that I felt like you were trying to eliminate me. I specifically meant night kill me, and then use my town flip to elim GL.

Lmao

I mean, I get it, but that's still very silly.

Why do I have to have a scumread I feel confident about on Day 1?

My issue is that you seemed more confident in there being scum between me and GL, yet chose Dunn.

Your stated position is that you GL is one of the lower people in your reads, and that his flip would give you insight into me, so that seems like the direction that would be more natural.

But you didn't go that direction. Instead, you voted you weaker read, and punted the Luke/GL pair down the road.

I have other means of getting insight into you besides voting out GL. I felt at the time you were more likely to be scum than him so I wasn't keen on voting him out. (But maybe I'm wrong on you!). If push came to shove I might vote him, but as I've said, if there's a scum outside you two it makes perfect sense to me to try to find that scum first. If I vote one of you out and it's wrong that's bad, if I'm wrong on both of you it's probably a game-loing read. So to me it doesn't hurt to vote outside. Night actions/claims will potentially help clear you up, if we manage to flip scum outside you then we can see if that scum makes sense as a teammate with either of you.

I wouldn't say I was more confident on GL being scum, that doesn't accurately reflect my position. My read on Dunn isn't very strong, it's just the best I have currently.

[catboi]

I find catboi's take on Luke's interactions with the tvt thing surprisingly persuasive. I'm kind of wondering about how they're addressing push back though. They respond differently to pressure than I do though.

Don't know what you mean in particular by this.As far as my response goes, I'm trying to be more communicative for the most part. I think Luke's pushback on me is extremely goofy but it's not setting off the same "absolute bullshit" flags the last two times I saw him as scum. I'm bad at reading people who scumread me though, as I've stated. I can't tell if they're being reasonable or not because I'm biased on knowing my alignment. I usually just reflexively OMGUS if they're being annoying enough.

Dunn is obvious scum

I believe in my cat

LMAO you're evil for this one

[catboi]

Night actions/claims will potentially help clear you up

this also feels like kind of a weird point in the context of why he's not taking a stance on either of us

what happens if we get to D2/D3 and we're both alive and Luke claims roleblocked or that he didn't get a useful result? if we're TvT and mafia have counterplay to a tracker then the dynamic could be intentionally prolonged as long as they want

idk this kind of like "I don't know, we'll see what happens" attitude rubs me the wrong way when catboi's also not leading or not advocating for much. I'd be more inclined to buy the indecisiveness if it felt like catboi was actively trying to sort me

okay and eventually we massclaim and decide whether luke's role makes sense in the setup or not

or maybe mafia do just NK him and then he's resolved that way. You're proposing a worst case hypothetical but that's not always what happens and even in the event it does we just see if his role fits in the setup?

[catboi]

ok venge is over, I can post in actual detail now

I think Luke probably resolves himself most of the time (assuming he's town) but if you see us as a TvS situation then I don't understand why that doesn't lead to you suspecting and voting me. like FYPOV there should be no real downside to flipping me but instead it feels like you're trying to keep your options open or simply float an idea of TvS / scum!GL to wait and see what the reception is

h
I mean, I wasn't going to vote you when you were not here, and as explained I was not that sold on the case against you. I also initially did not particularly townread luke so if I assume A) he might be mafia and B) he's not likely getting voted out then it doesn't make sense to vote you. I think he could be town now but it still makes sense to me to vote someone else I think is scummy.

As for me "not actively trying to sort you" - you weren't here, dude. What are you expecting me to do when you're not posting in the game? Why do you think I didn't just vote you? I mean, probably because I'm still trying to sort you?

[catboi]

I also honestly think ydrasse's defense of elle comes across as informed if Luke is in fact town, but I've gotten pushback on that read and don't feel like fighting hard.

[catboi]

or i guess you could pressure him and fight him or whatever that's always a fun time

<3

[catboi]

{pooky, bell, meuh}
{cakez}
{Luke, GL}
{Dunn, Ydrasse}

[catboi]

I think that I am convincing myself that GL is town, and that catboi is positioning to eliminate him after killing me for being a tracker.

Both because he linked the two of us together in a way that seems disingenuous, but also in the same post of doing that just side stepped eliminating inside the pair entirely for the day.

Especially when reading 502, and his pivot into Dunn feels toothless, like it was just The Best Option Left. Not like he even thought his thoughts on Dunn were Good.

Luke, I want to revisit this. You're scumreading me here because my vote is "toothless", because I lack passion behind it.

Now, GL gets a pass for this because he doesn't know my scumgame and is making the common fallacy that me lacking energy is a scumtell. But you - you've seen my scumgame. Do you think I, at any time as scum, come across as dispassionate? As lacking the will to put conviction behind a push?

[catboi]

I think that I am convincing myself that GL is town, and that catboi is positioning to eliminate him after killing me for being a tracker.

Both because he linked the two of us together in a way that seems disingenuous, but also in the same post of doing that just side stepped eliminating inside the pair entirely for the day.

Especially when reading 502, and his pivot into Dunn feels toothless, like it was just The Best Option Left. Not like he even thought his thoughts on Dunn were Good.

Luke, I want to revisit this. You're scumreading me here because my vote is "toothless", because I lack passion behind it.

That is ass backwards from what I actually said lol.

The toothless vote on Dunn was not the issue. My issue was (1) seeing you link my alignment to someone else, and not liking the explanation on why you did that. And (2) seeing you not pursue that joint read, in a way that I saw as strategically advantageous to you if you were scum.

The toothless part was more how I thought about whether it made sense for town!you, who genuinely believed (1), to still do (2). And I realized I would have been more understanding of that, had you been passionate about the Dunn read as well. But you weren't.

But you - you've seen my scumgame. Do you think I, at any time as scum, come across as dispassionate? As lacking the will to put conviction behind a push?

I am fully aware that you could fake a passionate scum read. But, given the overall energy level of the thread (or lack there of), I do not know that you would have any reason to feel like you needed to put one together, or that doing so would have helped you at the time.

Your vote on Dunn, when ignoring your stated position on me/GL, was generally inoffensive.

Okay then

I stand entirely behind my logic that even if I think there's scum between you, the better game move is voting outside you.

[catboi]

As for me "not actively trying to sort you" - you weren't here, dude. What are you expecting me to do when you're not posting in the game? Why do you think I didn't just vote you? I mean, probably because I'm still trying to sort you?

are you primarily a real time interactions kind of person, I feel like I've been around and posting

I'm also not sure what to make of your 506, it's fair to state that you're not confident in your read but also the best way to catch scum is when they bullshit their votes and scumreads and so if I squint hard enough I could see this post as a dodge out of fabricating a scumread on a townie. why should I believe that your scumread there is genuine

Not primarily real time, more of a "wait and see" player. You were absent for a day and the most relevant stuff was seeing how you would respond to luke and what you'd do after that. I certainly don't feel like me voting you would have helped anything and I had nothing in particular I wanted to ask you.

I dunno, you're free to choose to not believe me if you want. I'm not that worried because I don't think I'll actually go over today. If you actually want to figure out if my read is genuine, ask me questions about it?

{pooky, bell, meuh}
{cakez}
{Luke, GL}
{Dunn, Ydrasse}

Mmmm

Your annoyance at cakez and his vote was the thing that scared me a little bit on him because I can see him doing the overtly scummy thing as scum b/c he just doesn't care. However I've committed myself to shielding him for today, even if it makes me look foolish.

[catboi]

Dunn, I will move on you if you don’t suggest a better alternative in a better way.

I say as if power is something I have over anyone.

[catboi]

Your annoyance at cakez and his vote was the thing that scared me a little bit on him because I can see him doing the overtly scummy thing as scum b/c he just doesn't care. However I've committed myself to shielding him for today, even if it makes me look foolish.

Also I think ydrasse is significantly scummier than cakez and I don't think they're ever a team so I'd want to flip her before him always. But that's just my opinion.

[catboi]

this page is hilarious, good work, love you all

[catboi]

Lol

[catboi]

Why does that make me mafia, though?

[catboi]

Broadly speaking you have a tendency to scumread people for what amount to essentially vibe-based reasons, things like feeling "stiff" or "unnatural" or "impersonal" that relate mostly mostly to semantics and how a player presents themselves, but that has very little to do with actual scum motivations, and reflects more on you have a personal dislike for people's wording/phrasing. I think it has basically almost nothing to do with anything actually alignment indicative and is probably =random at best. I find it frustrating to be on the receiving end of this repeatedly.

[catboi]

I find it frustrating to be on the receiving end of this repeatedly.

this doesn't feel true given your prior two posts

like if you're actually frustrated is the first response really just "Lol"

I tried to find an appropriate gif or reaction image to say you're reaching but couldn't find any, so instead you get this post where I say this is a reach.

well you'd be surprised to learn I also am considering voting Catboi

Why?

[catboi]

I think GL accusing Cakez of chainsawing me is moving into "hard to fathom as being the real belief of a town player" territory. It's enough in the territory that I would be okay with voting him today, because his arguments have gotten continually worse, and look more like he's trying to "score points" with every attack rather than attempting to discern a perspective or actually investigate alignments. (I think even if he's town the way he's playing right is outright anti-town, not because he's reading me wrong but because of him tunneling in a single-minded fashion where everything someone does only adds further fuel to the fire. I think if allowed to live he will harm the town regardless of his alignment. That's simply how I've come to view this type of play. I've been guilty of it many times in the past (no pun intended), and part of the reason I've been playing restrained this game is to try to curb that tendency. I think he absolutely should not be allowed leadership/agency in this game).

Luke is simply mad I dared to suspect him. He is probably town and gets resolved mechanically either way. I wish he would not play so emotionally, but at his core he's still the same newbie I flew off the handle at for deathtunneling me a couple years ago.

I think Ydrasse's contributions to the game have overall been minimal to non-existant. Her main reads have been to defend elle for getting flustered, and OMGUSing Cakez. The elle read is not really logical because scum get flustered all the time, and instead comes across as white-knighting a player who was an early push. The Cakez read is entirely reactive and can easily be scum motivated. Beyond that, she shaded me for suggesting I'd be okay voting elle, and then shaded luke for calling her town. This is all play that is merely reacting to major events going on in the thread and responding to them, it takes very little effort. It doesn't feel investigative, like she's actually parsing the game and trying to figure anything out - rather she's simply commenting on big things or things that mention her. I think she is actively procrastinating on contributing to the thread and this is more likely to come from scum who is struggling to manufacture content.

I think the reasons that have been given for her being town are not very good. Guiltylion is suggesting her feeling concerned about the thread vibes being against her is a towntell. I think this is not convincing because it's ultimately a "vibe-based" read that is related t attitude, and that thing can be faked, or maybe she was just legitimately feeling threatened. Dunn says she is more charismatic as mafia early - again, this is a vibe-based read that is really not convincing. Luke is town reading her because she made a joke on page 1 and because she is defending his slot. I think this is obviously terrible reasoning n face value. Early game gutreads are not very likely to be accurate, and townreading someone simply for defending you means you are highly likely to fall into a pocket. Scum defend players who otherwise look to be uncontested wagons all the time. I think he is biased because he disliked being run up so quickly upon entering the game (which to be fair is an entirely understandable response), and so has latched on to anyone he saw as being protective of him.

That's my reasoning for Ydrasse being scum, it could be wrong, I don't think my read accuracy is particularly special. I would still prefer to flip her or GL if I'm voted out today.

---

It's very hard for me to explain how I'm reading pooky but I simply get the feel he is being genuine every time he posts, the way he spoke about me felt unrestrained and like it was coming from a town perspective. Similarly, Bell getting irritated with Cakez for the E-1 thing felt real and he keeps making his contributions that are slightly snarky but insightful. I buy what he's doing as town motivated

Meuh slightly less confident on but nothing she's posted has felt like t was not from a genuine perspective to me, and I still lean on the miller claim as being +town.

Dunn I had more as potential scum for POE reasons and some fear he may have been buddying me, but historically I'm not great at reading him. I thought there was simply a chance he was being overlooked.

As for Cakez, I wish I had an answer for why he felt like voting me before writing this post but I still felt like the response he had to pressure was towny in terms of how he was seemingly challenging people about voting him. I am also historically not great at reading him so my confidence level is not high, but that is the best I can manage. I think if Ydrasse flips mafia he is basically always town and should be treated as an innocent child.

[catboi]

VOTE: ydrasse

[catboi]

My read on GL is partly emotion-based which is something I know I should avoid but I legitimately believe he's being anti-town with how he's playing.


Ydrasse is very likely mafia at a glance from the response, but her being casual about it

might

mean the partner isn't in my sights, I'm not really sure.

[catboi]

this is really funny because if you do that youre voting yourself

That's a venge claim?

[catboi]

catboi you have paragraphs for why you suspect other people which I read and seems pretty convincing to me. Except for the part where you say we should eliminate "regardless of alignment" - that part I am not a fan of. And then you have sentences for me, saying poe, which doesn't even make sense if you have two other, better scumreads, and then "overlooked" which is based on what other people are doing.

I guess, yeah. I realize the justification for that read isn't great but I was basically spilling out as stream of consciousness, and that was all that came to mind. Maybe that means I should reconsider you, but I don't have a lot of things I can really point to that says anything about your alignment. I often don't really know how to read you and I don't think you've done anything obviously towny to me this game - which doesn't make you scum necessarily, I just can't really clear you.

As for the "regardless of alignment" thing - it's partly salty on my part, no way around it, but it's also a theory I have. I think when a town player is really overconfident and trying to aggressively steer the game, they're usually wrong and usually harmful. On self-reflection, that's where all my worst moments come from. I've witnessed other players run games into the ground by being ego-driven and steamrolling everyone who opposed them. I think GL is tipping close to that in terms of how he's handling me. (Luke also does this but like I can't really suggest policy killing him because I think he's probably town)

To be clear though I think this is an entirely viable model for scumplay and if GL as scum felt I was getting too threatening I could see him taking advantage of Luke here given he'd already laid he groundwork for pushing me.

[catboi]

I guess as a pure spitball guess GL/Cakez isn't impossible, at least off the top of my head

[catboi]

that's a very vague statement but i hope you know what i mean

like knowing i'm town i feel like he's resorting to a really basic reason at the start to suspect me that i don't think holds weight and i feel that he's using that as a basis and trying to bolster it by framing stuff like "she's not posting... cannot contribute... mafia". the things that mafia say that sound good but aren't actually true

narrative building etc

everything I posted is an entirely accurate summary of your game to this point.

[catboi]

Ydrasse what are you seeing as wolfposting?

last few posts, i think this entire thing is just like mechanical "i will say these things that read okay/logical on paper" pushing out of town

i do think that mafia is probably bussing though

atm given my thoughts about how towny this group of people can be which is interesting tho

This I really struggle to countenance as a genuine thought.

[catboi]

Dunn can be town because he seems to earnestly care about convincing me I'm wrong on him when there's a chance I get voted out today, and I think if he's mafia he wouldn't care as much about trying to persuade me.

This is an experimental read I just made up, but I like the logic behind it.

[catboi]

after literally just playing against me as mafia feel like he should be more aware that this isnt my mafia game and also p sure he made a post earlier where hes like "when do i not have passion as a wolf" or something and like i can think of multiple times before where hes in fact been "down" or lower energy in games when it was beneficial so it's a nonpoint.

catboi, what do you think of this? Do you think it is a fair assessment?

The latter part is plausibly true but it was a game where I was struggling to keep up with a bunch of hyperposters and was AtE'ing to survive, which isn't really true in comparison to this.

I don't think her posting is meaningfully different from what I've seen of her scumgame, but like I'm not that good at this game so I could easily be wrong

[catboi]

I actually think I think I might actually be thinking Pooky is town this game.

Weird feeling.

he is

[catboi]

If scum succeed at pushing me out today (which I now think probably happens because I underestimated how fickle certain people are), you two have to take charge of the game because it's a shitshow and I don't think anyone else knows how to find mafia

[catboi]

If scum succeed at pushing me out today (which I now think probably happens because I underestimated how fickle certain people are), you two have to take charge of the game because it's a shitshow and I don't think anyone else knows how to find mafia

oh and work with dunn I guess - I'm still cautious about it but I think my last read on him makes sense and he knows how to cooperate

[catboi]

I wanted to play this game differently and be more...laid back/restrained, because I've been playing absolutely terribly lately, and I thought in my own analysis games went better when I was more restrained rather than trying to be a hard carry leader. Maybe I played too tactlessly and figured I'd just be townread because I usually am, maybe I just can't play like this because people expect m e to play a certain way and I get attacked if I don't play that way but it really fucking sucks because I think my usual playstyle hurts the town. Maybe I just can't escape my own bad habits. I don't know.


By my count there's 5 people who have expressed a willingness to vote me or are voting me, so I'm just going to go ahead and claim VT. I think one of the basic tenets of the game I learned when I first started playing is you should always fight to stay alive as long as possible as town, because you know your own alignment and letting a confirmed townie die is never good, which is why I always fight hard as hell to resist elimination, but I guess as part of experimenting with the game I want to try to let go of that, it's just hard because I have the reflex to get really mad. But like I don't think me staying alive all the time is +EV, I usually lose if I'm alive in endgame (I have stats on this), so maybe letting myself get mis-elimmed is fine because if I fight too hard to stay alive it's probably really damaging to the game. I definitely think in TM I should have just selfvoted rather than constantly fighting.


Right now the gamestate feels super bad and there are certain people who i think have their heads on backwards and the game probably needs a hard reset to be able to correct them, and that maybe only happens if I actually get flipped so certain people realize they have no idea what they're talking about.

[catboi]

so yeah if I get killed just mass claim tomorrow and see if the roles make sense - it's not impossible Luke is a scum rolecopbut if he is you're going to run into a sitiuation where there's too many claimed power roles, and so it should be easy to figure out. Like I said I lean on him being town playing in a overly reactive fashion.

Beyond that please just sheep pooky and/or bell if you're town

Still not going to self, I can't bring myself to do it, feels like throwing.

[catboi]

It's so dangerous to assume this but given the way votes against me have formed it feels like scum have decided to go all-in on pushing me out and that lends things a weight of inevitability - it's really incredibly hard to figure out anyone's alignment from this spot for me because they all start to look the same in terms of being unreasonable, it's at least 4 people all saying the same thing.

So yeah, probably just burn my wagon down. Your job to sort who's most likely.

[catboi]

I guess as a pure spitball guess GL/Cakez isn't impossible, at least off the top of my head

I forgot that cakez was voting GL when I posted this, but I don't know how clearing that is, their interaction afterward was weird to me in that cakez wasn't really talking to GL like it was someone he scumread. That's kind of a tinfoil hat theory though. Feels too convenient, I really wouldn't vote out cakez first out of anyone. I'm probably too frustrated to really make rational evaluations though.

[catboi]

catboi you have 2 votes on you, you're not about to be eliminated

Both Luke and ydrasse are clearly willing to vote for me, cakez was toying with the possibility of voting me for ???reasons???. It's not hard to read the room and see there's support for eliminating me becaus I've pissed off half the game. I think you're the only one actually townreading me.

(If I squint and tilt my head, cakez so readily accepting the possibility of voting me when it became viable looks opportunistic. Maybe Bell is right there and I'm wrong, he has good instincts a lot of the time, I really don't know. You should probably trust someone else's judgment over mine).

I just...lack the will or the enthusiasm to fight off a wagon on me. I probably could do it but I'd have to get really mean to make it happen and I'm trying not to play that way. I don't think I'm so valuable to the town that I have to stay alive at all costs, I'm just a VT and I don't think my reads are anything special. Also when people tunnel me it more or less completely removes any chance I have of getting good reads, because I can't figure out if people pushing me are scum or just tunneled.

I see Luke replied to me but honestly I'm on the verge of passing out, I just wanted to address this before I went to sleep. hope this is reasonably coherent.

[catboi]

catboi the reason I was/am considering voting you is because your reaction to the recent pressure on you has felt off tonally, it feels like way more concerned with the votes then I feel like you'd normally respond as town. I mean just look at the last two pages - I feel like that claim was really dramatic and unprompted and it doesn't feel organic.

this is very par for the course

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[catboi]

I didn't decide to get upset

either catboi is scum and he's trying to just discredit me and piss me off, in which case cool, mission accomplished I guess

or he's town and he

actually thinks

my play is anti-town, which is offensive on a different level because when I compare what I've been trying to do and what he's done I don't think someone can earnestly say they believe their play is better at either a) appearing town or b) catching scum. so if he's town he's basically just saying I'm bad at the game because I dared to suspect him for not taking any definite stances on anything and that's tilting that he can unironically believe that given the extent of whatever he's offered so far

I make no claims of being good at this game

[catboi]

He literally posted a snoopy image with a crown on it.
he described our conversation on Sircakez as hilarious when it was funny at best.
He left his will to me and was like "When I die Bell, Take Dunnstrall and all my shit, you got this"

bruh he posted a comic strip that doesn't make you king homie

You should be able to realize when someone is stroking your ego. You especially. Buddying is happening. Is it because they think I'm town? Or are they trying to manipulate me? Or both? I don't get it. But I feel like you should, rather than using a thought ending cliche here to dismiss the thought.

Then again, this is exactly where you'd push back and to be fair, your perspective is fairly limited unless it's about you or certain players you're paying close attention to.
I do think you're paying attention to catboi here though.
I'm just not sure you're paying attention to me.

I can think of at least two places where catboi has tried to buddy up to you. Did you ignore them? Are you going to deny they happened or that it wasn't intentional?
Do you not find their response to the "my cat" line at least, interesting or something opening you up to vulnerability?

you're both town man, stop

[catboi]

I didn't decide to get upset

either catboi is scum and he's trying to just discredit me and piss me off, in which case cool, mission accomplished I guess

or he's town and he

actually thinks

my play is anti-town, which is offensive on a different level because when I compare what I've been trying to do and what he's done I don't think someone can earnestly say they believe their play is better at either a) appearing town or b) catching scum. so if he's town he's basically just saying I'm bad at the game because I dared to suspect him for not taking any definite stances on anything and that's tilting that he can unironically believe that given the extent of whatever he's offered so far

I make no claims of being good at this game

if you're town though you have probably voted 0 scum this game though so honestly shut the fuck up lmao

[catboi]

I've only skimmed over the thread because I'm not really interested in reading everything or actually trying to play.

I've realized I hate playing mafia now, and probably have for a long time. I try to convince myself that maybe things will magically be better the next time, or that I can try to be different and somehow it will work out, only to end up doing the same shit every time. I get the occasional enjoyable game, but they keep getting fewer and further between. I can't fix my issues. I joined this because my friend asked me to and I wanted to support him but that was clearly a mistake.

I quit.

[catboi]

UNVOTE: