Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[fferyllt]

hi guys! I'll be catching up over the next couple of hours I hope. I am not sure whose wifi I'm borrowing atm.

[fferyllt]

I'll be back to catching up sometime tomorrow unless insomnia strikes.

[fferyllt]

so fferylt

how's being an IC treating you?

I'm feeling somewhat insubstantial.

Tammy

, I look forward to your thoughts on that question.

GiF

, why do you think one choice is better than 2?

bulba

, why are you bane-ing cheetory?

[fferyllt]

Yeah, I figured you would ^_^

At the moment I'm trying to figure out the mechanics of the game and am submitting my dissertation tomorrow so I'm a bit distracted.

I would also like to see eespy's response or approach first. I could see him trying to get scum, but I can also see ZAR trying to get scum, so.

Could you see Titus trying to get scum?

[fferyllt]

But we also need to know signs to use our roles, right?

Right. Whoever gets Baned can (and probably should) be protected.

What was your thought process here?

The second choice is in case scum use both their kills on the same target or something like that while the first one can give us information if a kill is protected.

why do you think this is the case?

Bane: GIF
Choice: One

Hello everyone! My name is Marquis and I have decided to attempt to change my patterns of speech for this special special game! Studies show that people who use proper capitalization, limit their usage of punctuation to exclamation points, and perform similar happy acts may be considered more likable than those who do not! And how likable I am has a very good chance of affecting how people rate and review me in this special special game of Team Mafia!

So once again, hello everyone, and let's lynch the scum! Yay!

I don't like this post.

Everything above the /s was sarcasm. Marquis was obviously kidding around in his first post of the game. I'm not really taking anything from it. I just like joking around earlygame to try and give myself motivation to want to post.

CDB's opener was awkward though and I'm being serious with my vote to want to bane the shiet out of him atm.

I dislike this post so much that my hair is itching.

[fferyllt]

@ffery: if you would have two kills, would you shoot the same person twice with the exact signs, or mutiple people or different signs on the same person?

Your question doesn't make much sense to me, but I think it's because I can't unpack your assumptions. I'm trying to decide if having assumptions I don't have is scummy.

[fferyllt]

Ffery - what do you think of titus though? I'm not going to do much in the way of reads or anything until tomorrow at the earliest, but I'm reminded of serum and steel and the debate day one on removing metal from people. Her approach to people with different viewpoints is rather different, which makes me have an early warm feeling for her. Though I do have moments where I wonder if the candle and Alcuin business was an attempt to get them outed. I'm probably overthinking that though.

she makes me grind my teeth in my sleep more when she's town. I'm leaning slight town but I haven't slept on it obviously.

[fferyllt]

Okay so Trojan horse thinks we should just bane the scummiest player, lynch that player in major day, that way we get the boon and the bane really doesn't harm much.

I want to think of a bane as a pseudo lynch, but I wonder how much pressure a scum player would feel vs a town player?

[fferyllt]

oh my word I think deas is town.

[fferyllt]

yabbut I never think deas is town. it's kinda scary.

[fferyllt]

@Titus,

But I feel like something else worth considering is that we don't get a Boon if we don't use a Bane.
I also feel like being able to create wagons via Bane/Boon is also super useful and we lose out if we just say "nah" in all cases because of worrying about just the worst case scenario.

Thoughts on these aspects to following through with banes?

why do you need motivation to post?

[fferyllt]

you kinda gave her the answer there.

[fferyllt]

I'm wifi deficient again. might be able to post tonight.

[fferyllt]

Cheetory, can you please explain your current opinions on Tammy and Marquis?

Why did you specifically ask him and why me and markee?

To me it sounded like he was townreading (or at least definitively 'not-scumreading') Marquis, yet seemed to be scumreading you, which was odd to me because I thought that the same thought process that would scumread you would also lead to scumreading Marquis, and the same kind of thing if townreading. I also liked his response though, and while Ceph thinks he's scum I'm more undecided and still have UT as my best guess.

ceph played with him in the Advance Wars theme game. I'm also seeing some differences here from his play in that game.

however, I also meta'd some of his offsite scum/town games in that game, and I'm not really seeing stuff that shouts scum to me atm.

[fferyllt]

Tammy did you consider the wifom that could be generated if you actively sought out scum alignment in this game?

[fferyllt]

I thought about it too, but just flat out chickened out because of real life being crazy atm, and knowing internet access would be extremely iffy.

[fferyllt]

GiF, talk to me about your reads.

[fferyllt]

Yeah I"m not fond of UT atm either.

I want to leave a strong townbloc behind when I drop dead. I'm thinking about how to go about that.

Zar who is Empire townreading?

[fferyllt]

vezok could be scum.

I want to scum read marquis for ignoring me.

I want to scum read bulba but I always do.

lol I'm scumreading empire which is a strange thing.

I am thinking about what extended scum team would be that anxious to get my slot. completely out of the game.

[fferyllt]

What do you mean by "extended scum team"? Any scumteam should not want conftown, unless its me. I suck as conftown.

Every player in the game is the tip of an iceberg. I mean the potential scum team consisting of the player in this game augmented by the three other players who are working with them in the background.

There are players who rightly or wrongly would worry about me being in the game more than others regardless of my alignment being confirmed.

And there are players who would see me as likely to lead town in wrong directions.

Anyway.

I'm not sure about Zar, but he seems more tentative than I recall him in our previous game.

Also, I've mostly seen Tammy get it right when she develops strong interaction-based reads on day 1.

[fferyllt]

I'm not sure about Zar, but he seems more tentative than I recall him in our previous game.

Was he scum or town in your last game?

I mean, basically I've been playing telephone boy in my time for this game today.

This is kind of my main concern with the way this argument is going. I don't want this to turn into Tammy vs Empire. I'd rather try and focus on reading interactions between two players who are actually both in this game -.-
@Zar, can you possibly talk to me about why you decided to make a big thought-out post to respond to Tammy instead of responding to her in real-time?

he was town. I wouldn't be contrasting his play in a negative light otherwise.

[fferyllt]

@Fferylt, I am torn here. Tammy is so confident in her Zar read I want to shake it loose and see what happens but I really don't like Mastina lurking.

I don't want to shake the read loose. I know she'll continue to evaluate and test the read.

I think she's town.

I could see regfan getting her wrong as town. That's really the only read on her that Zar's relayed from his team that doesn't give me a horrible case of hives.

[fferyllt]

I don't know anything about the whole empire state tammy thing but why would empire as scum would make esp go for tammy first when tammy has tendency to obvtown herself quite easily? (No I'm now townreading Zar but I'm just curious.)

I don't understand what espe has to do with tammy? he hasn't even posted yet. Zar brought him up as someone who might have spent a token on rolling scum.

[fferyllt]

Esp -> Zar

I was keep getting their names confused and tried my best not to mismention them lol

zar didn't really go after her though, not in a way that looks like he was scumreading her, and not before she pushed him iirc.

[fferyllt]

You're never going to let Donner Party go, are you? What exactly is it about my play this game that is making you want to scum read me?

It has nothing to do with Donner Party.

your biggest concern about my getting treestumped apparently was irritation that you might find the thread locked again with your next post. That doesn't feel like town reacting to losing a town player before the game has hardly started.

[fferyllt]

Actually if you look at that game you'd see I'm not particularly big on day one in general.

that day 1 didn't last long enough to draw any conclusions about whether your day 1 is big or not. I kinda treated day 2 as day 1 part 2, and I assume so did most town players.

[fferyllt]

also I've played quite a few games with tammy in the last year or so. We both like theme games and we like many of the same mods, so our paths cross frequently. We're still kinda working out how we play together when we're town.

[fferyllt]

TOWN

Tammy
Deasvail
GiF
Titus

MAYBE TOWN

Marquis. - I don't like the stuff Deas likes. Will ultimately probably defer to GiF
Actiondan. - possibility of scum theater maybe, but otherwise leaning a little town. have a question in to my team about the interaction with UT
T S O - not having a strong read on him is concerning me a little
Gammagooey. - will be soliciting from my team to clarify this read
ChannelDelibird.
Cheetory6.
Mastin2. - this will be a nacho-read probs. Leaning slight town on my own.
Shadoweh. - want input from my team

NOT SO TOWN

Bulbazak.
UT
Vezok
Zar. - here for now because Tammy/Empire.

WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU?

Antihero.
Aronis.
Espeonage.

[fferyllt]

MAYBE TOWN is my middle section and that's where Marquis is.

[fferyllt]

I love how ffer's list only explains her maybe reads

no explanation to her town or scum reads.

great job A+

I don't need to show off how towny I am with a drop dead gorgeous reads list. It'll change out of jammies and bunny slippers later.

Any particular reason why you want to snark at me?

Anything more game-relevant and alignment-indicative you'd like to contribute?

[fferyllt]

@ffery: You think I conspired with bulba and decided he will bus me like hell? Or are you saying those people are scummy individually?
Also I kinda want to see a readlist in which you strongly believe because you are a great town player and will be gone tomorrow.

I don't generally teamhunt on day 1. I mostly townhunt/PoE, which I kinda think you know about me by now.

I threw my current thoughts out there to generate discussion and data for further analysis.

[fferyllt]

Also UT you so realize that fery is confirmed town right?

he did realize it the night it happened.

Wondering if this is manufactured amnesia.

I'd already be bane-voting him if I had a vote.

[fferyllt]

Also UT you so realize that fery is confirmed town right?

he did realize it the night it happened.

Wondering if this is manufactured amnesia.

I'd already be bane-voting him if I had a vote.

Actually, nope, I'd probably not be bane-voting him. Nacho thinks his assholishness could be coming from town-urgency.

[fferyllt]

Nacho's comment about UT came before that post, I think. But I seriously doubt that scum would forget I've been defanged. My only question was whether scuim-UT might pretend to forget for possible derptowncred.

[fferyllt]

because

a. this game is fucking bananas
b. I have a lot of stuff going on in my life
c. it's literally not that important to me, sorry

you can be a dumbass and try to turn that into some kind of scumtell, but unimportant things slip your mind when you're an adult with a job and stuff

Nacho doesn't like you for town so much right now.

[fferyllt]

Ok, so I don't care whether Zar is baned today or not. Gestalt opinion is that he needs to be lynched at the earliest opportunity.

I think I'm coming around to CDB's idea of baning someone we're concerned about but not concerned enough to lynch with fire forthwith.

[fferyllt]

REVISED:

TOWN

Tammy
Deasvail
GiF
Titus
Marquis. -

I don't like the stuff Deas likes. Will ultimately probably defer to GiF

Gestalt townread.
Cheetory6. - Gestalt townread.

MAYBE TOWN

Actiondan. - possibility of scum theater maybe, but otherwise leaning a little town. have a question in to my team about the interaction with UT
T S O - not having a strong read on him is concerning me a little
Gammagooey. - will be soliciting from my team to clarify this read
ChannelDelibird.
Mastin2. - this will be a nacho-read probs. Leaning slight town on my own.
Shadoweh. - want input from my team
UT - moved up ever so slightly
Vezok
Bulbazak.

NOT SO TOWN - lynch asap

Zar.

WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU?

Antihero.
Aronis.
Espeonage.

-----------------------

Notes:

- Not a seriatim list

- My townreads have been blessed by at least part of my team, and based on the input, I've moved Cheetory6 and Marquis to the towngroup. Marquis is still of concern. his 67 is identical to Fate's entrance to the first team mafia game back at the dawn of time, which pings. But his post 198 has a vague townfeel to it.

deas townread eroded a little on the basis of concerns raised. I am leaving him in town for now. A thing that worries me a little is just the vibe I get from both sides of the deas/marquis interactions. I know that marquis likes to townread the hell out of his teammates sometimes as scum.

[fferyllt]

bulba and vezok haven't moved up, but there is a clear difference in degree of scumread between them and zar at this point. Zar has moved down.

[fferyllt]

TSO, I asked you to read my posts because I felt you were misunderstanding me and I was repeating myself.

You think I lie for no reason???

The booze is for me tonight to try to make sense of this.

@DV, He asks questions, follows through on the answers and articulates his positions well. This is town Bulba.

That sounds like null bulba. Pls don't declare things that aren't true.

hella yeah this game is gonna be easy.

Not in my experience.

Nah, scum Bulba is a lurksack who has trouble faking the same consistency of thought with tone.

[fferyllt]

ergh not in my experience. though most of my experience with scum bulba is multiball.

[fferyllt]

hey ffery, it shouldn't really bother you that you don't have a strong read on me early-game. I don't think you usually do.

There have been a couple games where I did. I remember townreading you pretty early in red wine and eventually getting so sick of the mutual tunneling you and katsuki were doing that I was willing to lynch you both.

In the Fire Emblem game I also townread you on day 1 for an interaction between you and beastcharizard, I think.

Anyway. You are able to town it up. I'm just a lot more cautious since the alliteration mini.

[fferyllt]

It can't be Deevee, he's too cute to be manipulative! Question, do you want to Bane Zar today or lynch him Major Day, Ffery was suggesting not targetting the same person with both negatives. If you want to lynch Zar we'd have to look into alternative targettables today. I don't think Bulbazak would make a bad Bane choice.

I wish one of our strong townreads had jumped on my suggestion. :/

[fferyllt]

SUPRISE!

If you heard that sound, that was the sound of the scum team in this game collectively shitting themselves.

Well, Tammy, you wanted me and now you get the real me, uncut and unfiltered.

You're going to have to make yourself undeniably town to me and to Nacho. Right now, as far as I'm concerned, you're getting lynched at the first opportunity.

[fferyllt]

Skipping from page 24 to 28 to say the following: ffery, you're town, I'm town, Cabd would like to collaborate with you for the brief time you're here.

OK. does he have reads to discuss?

[fferyllt]

I think I need to read it again later. There are reads I disagree with, and some stuff I haven't talked about in the game thread so far that he's echoed some of mine/our thoughts. Also some unspoken reads changes that I've laid down no trajectory on - he's taking the emerging side on some of those changes.

The you-read is utterly mindboggling to me. Nacho and I both are extremely skeptical of the efforts to discredit you, and we expect to see more of the same. And we're totally, totally not liking it, though we don't think it will come exclusively from scum players.

Anyway, it would be really really cool for this to be town-Empire, and I'd feel better about town's chances for an eventual win if it is town-Empire. But I'm not sold.

[fferyllt]

Package from Tiershift

:
Ffery, Tier's telling me that he wants to work off of your reads to get a feel for this game. He wanted me to ask you why you're reading vezok as scum? Like if you can elaborate on it and stuff.
Tier's also saying that GiF's play isn't striking him as all that different from his play in the Tarot Upick that you modded and he was hoping you could talk at/with him about your townread on him.
He's also not really feeling scumUT from what he's seen. Which makes me sad. :c

Catching up now.

This is probably going to be a really long day, and I may not have much time to post in the next 12 hours or so.

Vezok read has changed. We think he's town.

I read GiF based partly on how he forms his own reads (including if and how he goes about sorting me, which has been short circuited in this game). There are some minor things that I want to think a little more about, but I'm still townreading him.

I would probably have entirely backed off my UT read if it were not for his attack of amnesia. I indicated already that the read had moved townward.

I won't be softening my stance on Empire unless the gestalt consensus is that he's town. I'm very concerned about getting that read right and fully understanding the motivations for the replacement.

[fferyllt]

ffery, Cabd says Empire is town and that he thinks you should already know that. He also wants to know whether you want him to focus on fringes or you just want a general readslist.

empire may be, though we have some intergame stuff we're considering. tammy is town and he/his team not seeing that concerns us.

General would be good for now. during my middle group up or down is my focus right now.

would especially like to know what he thinks of deas, espe, gamma, tth, etc.

[fferyllt]

Metal sonic told me I should go ape shit at you when you don't listen that Empire is town.

But I won't cause I'm in a good mood right now.

like you, I have a brain trust to call on and represent. empire and ms have more than me to contend with, defanged condition notwithstanding.

[fferyllt]

The you-read is utterly mindboggling to me. Nacho and I both are extremely skeptical of the efforts to discredit you, and we expect to see more of the same. And we're totally, totally not liking it, though we don't think it will come exclusively from scum players.

Jesus fucking christ, for what feels like the 800th time, I am not discrediting Tammy. Being suspicious of her =/= trying to discredit her. I still have some reservations about that slot due to the fact that I'm slowly coming around to the idea that she might not be scum here after all, that Regfan still strongly reads her as scum (last I talked to him about it, we oddly enough didn't really discuss her much last night), and that I am a gigantic pussy because I'm honestly afraid of reading her wrong. If you want me to give you the lowdown on her, then I'll do my best to explain what's going on.

There was some thought separation in my mind that didn't make it into the words I posted. I actually am more concerned about other players who have been making discrediting noises since before Zar replaced out. We're noticing it and we don't like it, but we're don't think it's going to be a 1 to 1 correspondence with scumteam. Or I don't, anyway. I'm remembering the Marketplace game and my first huge failure at reaching out to town-Tammy and working with her. It did (and could again) ding her ability to be effective in the game if she's under constant sniping attacks for her reads, and I"m sure that scum will be happy to skate along under all the flying debris.

Also, I want to work with you generally but I'm not super sure re: how to go about doing this (I think this might be the first game where we're actually town together). I know you prefer to keep a lot of things under wraps in order to gather your reads (ex: you would not have been able to post the first paragraph in #696 if you'd have been forward with everything) so I really don't want to be intrusive. Alternatively, I could use you as a conduit to talk to Nacho and Llamarble while you gather info but it's up to you if you want to be put in that position.

Anything that helps me be as effective as possible for town while I'm still in the game is welcome. I"m happy to be a conduit. I'm happy to talk about stuff. I think it will help me solidify my read of you. I'm not holding back a lot of stuff, but it's part of my style to do research and let my thoughts jel before speaking up sometimes. There's a tension between that tendency and the desire to be transparent and work with townreads, so I wind up doing a little from column a and a little from column b and a little of those odd moments where a lightning bolt strikes when I'm driving, sleeping, etc, and my view of the game gets unexpectedly transformed.

[fferyllt]

Re: ffery's #760 - I can definitely understand the approach to Tammy and that's part of the reason why I'm more than willing to give her space right now (I know I definitely benefited from the shitstorm when I was scum in Marketplace III). If you want to talk about reads, could you tell me pretty much everything Llamarble has on this game? (Nacho, too, I guess, but that depends on where he is with his process).

llamarble hasn't commented much about the game yet. I'll convey your interest in his thoughts.

Nacho has been more in the moment. One of the reasons I've been somewhat slow about semaphoring reads changes is because we're still in discussion on a couple things. I'll probably be posting a big ol reads list update tonight sometime.

[fferyllt]

ffery, Regfan just popped and I'm talking with him right now. He wants me to ask you to explain your strong townread (ahnd Nacho's if he has one) on Titus because he definitely doesn't see it.

Titus, maybe later (although thanks for the law school flashbacks).

I don't want to talk about Titus in detail right now. I'll definitely talk about her in a few calendar days. I'm townbinning her for now mostly based on her expressions of frustration and how she's adapting and working around stuff that was frustrating. Nacho pointed out post 148 as something he thought was more likely to come from town-Titus than from scum-Titus.

[fferyllt]

Empire can you explain more about why Regfan is scumreading Tammy?

[fferyllt]

titus please don't do stuff that will make me hate my limited time in the game.

being pedantic will definitely make me hate my limited time in the game.

[fferyllt]

fery is a VT so there's nothing she can do by detecting sign. Tammy is my next-in-line townread.

I don't think I can be given a boon. and I'm sure I can't use one. I'm essentially a treestump.

I'm not liking Espe much at all.

[fferyllt]

I think so. will post shit tonight when I have laptop.

[fferyllt]

Tammy Re: #851:

1) Yeah, I forgot to mention the dissertation stuff in that post you're responding to because I was a zombie yesterday, sorry :/ I guess part of it is that I don't really remember playing with you in a super mechanically complex set-up (correct me if I'm wrong) since I tend to avoid heavy mechanics like the plague so I'm not really used to heavy mechanics talk from you.

Marketplace III

[fferyllt]

fery is a VT so there's nothing she can do by detecting sign. Tammy is my next-in-line townread.

I don't think I can be given a boon. and I'm sure I can't use one. I'm essentially a treestump.

I'm not liking Espe much at all.

Anything I can do to help?

If I tell you what you can do to help it doesn't count.

[fferyllt]

extended family

interesting (though not really relevant to anything) that you used this word. I've been talking about extended families to Nacho wrt these games.

[fferyllt]

I want input from my team but I'nm thinking boon vezok.

[fferyllt]

Great job ignoring the confirmed town you guys wanted to hand the boon decision to earlier.

[fferyllt]

I want input from my team but I'nm thinking boon vezok.

[fferyllt]

llamarble agrees re vezok. I think that Nacho will also when he gets a chance to look again.

[fferyllt]

I have a ton of catch up to do sitewide because real life is kicking my butt this week. I'll firm up and explain my reasoning as soon as I can.

[fferyllt]

Making dinner and homework, but I wanted to say my three favourite picks for booning right now are TSO, Titus and Deas.

Boon: Deas

for now.
Vezok doesn't look bad either but I have literally 0 experience with him.
Would be willing to sheep townreads there if we need a hammer and that's the only thing that's gonna take off.

I'd prefer you or Vezok over any of your favorite picks!

So would Nacho.

You and Vezok both fit our profile for a good boon choice today.

[fferyllt]

Making dinner and homework, but I wanted to say my three favourite picks for booning right now are TSO, Titus and Deas.

Boon: Deas

for now.
Vezok doesn't look bad either but I have literally 0 experience with him.
Would be willing to sheep townreads there if we need a hammer and that's the only thing that's gonna take off.

I'd prefer you or Vezok over any of your favorite picks!

Explain why?

This isn't just because I'm being mentioned; I really want to hear what you're thinking on Titus.

I think they're town AND I don't think they'll be a kill priority to scum.

I"ll be working on a reads list update today.

[fferyllt]

Ffery, I'd been holding off on your word as I'd hoped that you would nominate a shortlist of three or something, as some of us were talking about, rather than homing in on one person specifically, so as to make scum decide within your shortlist to get more choices on record. However, seeing as enough people have just ignored you altogether, I guess we arrive at a similar point.

Boon: vezok

because the confirmed town wants me to. My read on vezok is slightly town now, anyway.

If you want a pool of three, then call it (Vezok, Cheetory6, Untrod Tripod)

[fferyllt]

I'll stick with vezok, of the three.

Do you disagree with my criteria? disagree with my reads?

[fferyllt]

I'll stick with vezok, of the three.

Do you disagree with my criteria? disagree with my reads?

I think the criteria are probably about right, but I'm definitely not townreading Cheetory right now (I've not played with him before, which doesn't help, but he's hovering around null with a light scumping or two which I think I've mentioned) and I think I want a bit more time to figure out UT. Vezok's got a vibe of not caring about his image that I quite like, and I like the little proto-wagon analysis that he attempted re: the Marquis boon wagon.

I've played with Cheetory once before and did some offsite meta research for that game. I wound up disagreeing with my neighbor (who also did research on offsite games) who was scumreading him by pattern matching specific angles and approaches (I mention this because it is reminiscent of your comment about a scumping or two). I thought his tone was very different from his offsite scumgames. he was town in that game.

Anyway, Nacho and I are both townreading him.

I can understand wanting more time to figure out UT. I'm leaning on my team with that read to some extent, though I liked the way he engaged Titus earlier.

[fferyllt]

Nope.

[fferyllt]

Marquis I feel liike you're pretty much ignoring me and not trying to interact with me or even find out why we disagree where we disagree.

I don't understand that.

[fferyllt]

You've mentioned this twice now but I still don't really know how I've been ignoring you! Yes, I read your posts, but it's not like I really have much to say about them!? I mean I'm curious why you don't want to boon me but I just kind of assumed it's for the same reason everyone else "implied", unless you were waiting for me to try and figure out a different reason why!

PEDIT see!

Woe is me!

I feel like the level of engagement you've had with me is off, but it's hard for me to gauge that when players don't have to engage me to sort me. So, the reasons to talk with me are different. And I feel like you're just kinda waiting for me to be gone and out of the game due to the lack of engagement. After saying that I *wanted* to scumread you - which implied that I'm not sure it's a good reason to scumread you, you later wound up in my townpile. that was a team-read and I personally still have reservations, and I've had time to see how you'd react to the read change (no reaction as far as I recall) and see if and how you raised your level of engagement with me (you didn't).

So, you've become a person of concern.

[fferyllt]

Mobile on the road now so just a short response, but I [ipstill [gi] don't know what you expected me to say! :/ I was glad for the townread recognization but you're confirmed town so it's not like I had anything else to think about there!

I suppose in a sense I could have been just "waiting" for you to leave since you had a townread on me earlier but I'd much rather not have you leave without a townread on me now because that would really suck! But again, I don't know what more you expect of me because I frel like post-your is the most open I've been with my thoughts out of all my games ever apart from the exclamation points which I don't want to stop committing to until I actually slip and I don't understand how you don't recognize me as obvtown. I think the only game we've had together for a while was Joss Whedon and this thought kind of cut out halfway through my mind making it but I guess the whole point of it is I don't know why you don't want to boon me and now don't townread me and don't really know how to fix that. gtg

I don't give out step by step instructions on how to get a ffery-townread. There are plenty enough players who have reversed engineered the processes as it is!

You're one of the players I want to touch bases with my team about this weekend because I'd like some trusted opinions, especially if I'm wrong.

[fferyllt]

@FFery, While I respect a process, a wise person once said to me that mafia cannot be broken down systemically. I disagree partially, as votes can have that done to narrow down but not totally solve a game. Reading behavior alone I don't feel can. It assumes that all town share the same normative behavior as town. You said people have reversed it. Who has? (Do not say so out loud). Are you townreading them or their team?

The game as a whole can't be broken down systematically with a few rules of thumb. That's not even remotely what I'm talking about. individual players' blind spots can be mapped and exploited. Even one player being able to do that when playing with me is plenty-enough.

When I figure out that someone can do that, then I adapt. but there are a few players who re-engineer as fast as I adapt, or who maybe know me well enough by now that they can predict how I'll adapt the next time out. I feel pretty sure that Nacho can, though the last time I encountered scum-Nacho I was at an extreme, real-life-based disadvantage and I feel in retrospect that my guard should have been up much higher than it was. Anyway, that's an arms race on both sides, and it's awesome to be playing in a game where I don't have to devote large chunks of my time and data analysis in figuring him out and deciding whether I trust his reads to be coming from town.

As far as players in this game or playing from the bleachers, rest assured that my reads take into account what I think they know about how I read them.

[fferyllt]

@Ffery: You never answered me and told me what criteria you were using to determine good boon targets. I figure that's a good way to understand how you came to the Vezok choice, because I'm not understanding why any of my town reads are town reading him.

I gave my answer to T S O, but I think you're actually asking a different question: Why are we townreading Vezok? And the partial answer is we're reading him town because of the team he's on. The other partial answer is similar reasoning to CDB's.

[fferyllt]

Empire, curious if/how your reads have evolved.

[fferyllt]

I will flip a million tables over this Tammy bullshit.

Nacho and I talked over our Empire read overnight and we're leaning town there now, but still can't fathom the Tammy misread.

We also went back through the game to see if there's something we missed that justifies the scumreads and indicates maybe we're wrong about her.

And that was a big huge nope.

Other thoughts right now:

Nacho thought the interactions between DV and Marquis felt off. But the offness seemed mostly from the Marquis side. Which is a comfort to me because I was on my own in not liking Marquis in Gestalt.

I think Aronis and TTP both are good targets for clarification.

[fferyllt]

No, it's not. I talked about stuff that bothered me late yesterday.

Still not liking Bulba, btw.

[fferyllt]

Oh man those reasons are shit. Don't even worry about them.

What is this about?

[fferyllt]

The basis for the scumread was mostly twofold:

- Zar's play and the replace
- Empire's tammy read

The replace aspect on a holistic, dare I say gestalt, level is not as worrying right now after the reread.

his Tammy read, like I said, is hard to fathom, but we're leaning toward Empire feeling rusty and overthinking or something. For us, by 10 pages in Tammy was clearly town, and nothing has obscured that read since then.

I mentioned earlier that Empire's reads list was directional with my own - and he was already taking stances in agreement with changes in my reads that I hadn't even slightly hinted at in the game thread at that point. For me, that was a significant dent in my scumread of the slot, but I wanted players on my team with more Empire-reading experience to weigh in.

[fferyllt]

Anyway, I think I'm prob gonna be useless until some ppl dies out, or at least for few weeks. I'm looking to see if one of my teammates can switch with me though.

Bring ika maybe? But Day 1 is always the hardest. No real evidence to go on. Unless a wagon hits scum day 1, the wagon is more useful for VCA than anything else.

FTR, GiF is my second strongest townread because ika.

Don't you and ika constantly read each other wrong, tunnel and fight?

Does this suggestion concern you?

[fferyllt]

I'm flying home tomorrow. I'll have tablet/phone access occasionally but won't be wallposting (heh) until I'm home and caught up on sleep.

[fferyllt]

Yes. I asked Mollie to look over the game, Vezok in particular, and "Tammy is scum" is what she came back with. She's since expanded on it, saying that your reactions are off. She compares your reaction here to being scumread to the one in Unbalanced 2, where you were hysterical and threatened to replace out. Here it looks like you don't care. She says that your posts are passive aggressive to people who aren't townreading you, and that you don't seem to be worried about getting lynched. She says you seem very confident, but that there's also a weird placidness that she doesn't understand. She didn't like you hiding behind Ffery's read in #1405 or the discredit that followed. She says that when you're town, you argue as to why you're town, instead of relying on someone else's read. She says that it's a specious argument and that you know that conf. town does not equal conf. reads, and that as far as she knows, both Ffery and herself have a similar track record in terms of playing with you.

In regards to Ffery, she does think she can see where Ffery is getting her town read of you. She thinks it's where you claimed not to have read the set up. This comes from the assumption that scum Tammy would have been more careful and read the setup before hand. Mollie says she's not sure about that. She's also stated that if Ffery's scumreading me, then "the axis of which she is pivoting the game is borked", which is why she's not trusting the reads at all.

Hey Bulba. Can you ask mollie if she thinks that Tammy's tone is town frustrated or scum default? She's seen both recently, they are both similar.

Why don't yu ask the confirmed fucking town that is actually playing in this game, has played more games with me, and can read me better.

Personally, I trust Mollie's ability to read you better, as she's spent more time with you not only in games, but also in a hydra.

So no bombshells from Mollie.

She's missing a lot of the basis for my townread, and what she picked up was something I think is town for different reasons. it's a different (and much more extensive) slice of experiential meta that's informing my read.

I'm not going to try to discern Mollie's alignment filtered through your posts. From what I know of her games with Tammy the meta basis is thin but she hasn't twisted the data out of shape or anything.

[fferyllt]

I was going to ask Copper's teammate to ask his thoughts about tth but then I realized it's Aronis.

[fferyllt]

welcome, singer.

sad to see you go, Empire. was hoping to talk reads with you tonight

hope real life gets better for you soon

[fferyllt]

ffery, Cabd says Empire is town and that he thinks you should already know that. He also wants to know whether you want him to focus on fringes or you just want a general readslist.

empire may be, though we have some intergame stuff we're considering. tammy is town and he/his team not seeing that concerns us.

General would be good for now. during my middle group up or down is my focus right now.

would especially like to know what he thinks of deas, espe, gamma, tth, etc.

still waiting to hear more about cabd reads.

[fferyllt]

@FFery,

Do you think my idea to lynch at middeadline and then lynch at the end of the day is a good one?

I don't have a lot of double day experience, and the experience I have involved a set deadline for the first and second lynches iirc.

Anyway, my feeling is that where we go after the first lynch is highly dependent on the first flip. And that we'd benefit by spending more time on the first. my gut says 2/3 to 3/4 of the available time, probably closer to 2/3.

I'm going to run this question by my team because they may have more experience to draw on than I do.

[fferyllt]

Mastin, usually you and I don't do a lot of direct interaction in games.i

I think the rest of this game day could benefit by being an exception.

I'm not sure how to go about thisl, but I'm going to start with a revised reads list sometime tomorrow.

[fferyllt]

Will

re

view the rest

tomorrow

later. Good night.

:/

[fferyllt]

Nacho agrees that a 70-30 time split between the two lynches sounds better than 50-50.

[fferyllt]

Ffery's probably gunna kill me for that comment.

Do you want me to explain why the comment doesn't make me want to kill you?

Nacho says "hi"!

Our Empire read had already softened considerably as I mentioned earlier.

Singer hasn't changed that.

Moving the slot up to town.

More reads later today.

[fferyllt]

Shadoweh what are your current reads?

[fferyllt]

TTH! If you want me to consider Marquis as scum you're going to have to give me a whole lot more than you're currently giving.

@Cheetory,

Bulbazak is town because of the fluidity but logical consistency of his opinions. People are consistently inconsistent. I feel that people jumped on the first thing they disagreed with as scummy, rather than actually seeing what was actually scummy. My team told me to be hesitant on declaring people were scum so when I saw the massive pile up on Bulba for reasons I could not even divine much less understand, I figured the push was on town rather than on scum. I know occasionally I am wrong. Given those voices on Bulba's slot have suddenly gone quiet today when it's actually time to lynch Bulba, I can conclude either I was right or scum were setting up massive distancing for towncred. I'm more inclined to believe the former.

P-edit... well I thought no one was make a bulba is scum push...

First, I think that being inconsistent is actually one of the easiest things for scum to do, and second, someone being busy shouldn't have any impact on the alignment of who they're scumreading?

Singer, why the townread on ActionDan?

Espe, I gave you the opportunity to convert me to the light and implant the grand idea of Tammy-scum into my mind, but you didn't take the opportunity.

Cops might also check DV.

Um, they better not waste their time doing that. Also the strength of my vezok townread has doubled, and he was pretty strong town before...

holy shit guys

holy shit we have nothing to go on

can we just lynch someone bad and move on

Posts like these make it seem like you care about the game, but your actions make it seem like you don't! Why?

If true, explain why I would pick a fight with a universal townread as scum, since that seems pretty counterintuitive to me.

People are usually pretty quick to dismiss a fight as townvtown. Picking a fight with me if you're town seems more counterintuitive honestly.

(although being sheeped by Vezok is unnerving me a bit).

Why? Vezok has just become more and more town?

this is also me admitting my original reasons were probably really dumb aside from the sheeping itself but i still refuse to believe town!anti swaps out of the game while continuing to keep up with it enough to relay a scumread on me based on my scumread and concern over your slot for reasons that he knows exist and are mostly true. it's even more bullshit bullshit bullshit.

This has crossed my mind as well, but I still think not lynching TTH is the way to go today (will explain later).

Bulba, why is Shadow conf town?

Nacho agrees that a 70-30 time split between the two lynches sounds better than 50-50.

I say let's lynch when we feel like it! (Preferably not too late though, but I trust people to be at least sort of sensible)

--

Ok finally caught up!

Ffery/Tammy/Respective Teams: I would very much like your thoughts on Mastin. I'm scumreading her, but I feel more caution there than I would with someone else.

Regarding TTH:

I'm just as skeptical as any of you about her alignment, but I feel there are good reasons for keeping her around. First, she's made this super bold claim about being confirmed minor day two. Now do I actually think this is going to happen? No, I think it's probably scum trying to bide time, but if scum really wants to be lynched day two instead of day one then we may as well let them. She might just be town! And if it turns out that this was all some big ruse to avoid being lynched then there's no way I'm letting her get away with that because I've tried it as scum before and didn't get away with it, so it's not allowed to work for anyone else!

Secondly, if TTH is scum (which I think is reasonably likely), now we get to imagine scum agonizing over whether or not to kill me as we fall asleep tonight (or do other secret stuff). Do they kill me and potentially reveal TTH's alignment??? Or do they leave me alive in the hope that I'll be distracted from her telltale heart??? I don't know, maybe this isn't as cool as I think it is but I sort of love imagining scum squirm deep down (I'm really quite terrible).

I took longer to catch up than I anticipated and I still have to decide who I want to lynch (answers to my questions would be quite nice), but I'm thinking my pool is currently:

[ActionDan, Aronis, Bulbazak, GiF, Mastin2, Shadoweh]

I'll hopefully narrow this down some more. I've become less sure of my Bulbazak read lately, but there's nothing that would really stop me from lynching him.

I'm going to stop worrying about you. I'm going to look back at this post every time I start worrying again.

<3

[fferyllt]

Why is it so hard to answer me when I ask things? <_<
I don't have time right now to flesh out the list, but
Town: Titus, Tammy, Deevees, vezok, TSO
Lynchmepls: Marquis, CDB, I wouldn't have said Empire's slot earlier, which is probably why I'm still nervous about actually voting that way, but etc

Thanks. I will answer, probably later today.

[fferyllt]

heh. trying to remember if you've ever townread me/my hydra when you've been town!

Even if being conftown didn't come at such a harsh price, I'd still prefer earning reads with my play in this game. keeps me on my toes.

[fferyllt]

Um...kinda, yeah! Unless you're referring to the fact that you're confirmed town and can't do that within the confines of the game?

That's not what I'm referring to.

your paranoia in the newbie game didn't make sense, but it was a little flattering even so. in the Reck game I replaced in late after town had used up most of its margin of error, and I basically rode CDB's coattails to the win. I just had to come up with a semi-believable fake claim and avoid tripping over my feet. The fake claim wasn't simple, I had to skim a huge game in an improbably short period of time to be sure I was coming up with something that couldn't be refuted by a living player or a dead players claim. But, it was the hardest part of my job as a late-replacing scum.

CBD on the other hand arguably led scum to that victory over the course 9 or 11 or 111 game days. paranoia about him makes a hell of a lot more sense than paranoia about me did.

Anyway, paranoia is good as long as it's grounded with reality checks.

[fferyllt]

That's irrelevant. As town, scum shouldn't know what information you did or didn't have with regards to role PMs, sample or otherwise.

Hence, as town, it would be a mistake to admit anything like that unsolicited.

I disagree. Transparency is almost always a good thing. Except when it isn't, but this wasn't the sort of thing where transparency would have been bad.

[fferyllt]

And yet peeps are scum reading me.

Why did you unvote in post 1482?

[fferyllt]

So.

Vezok's town.
Tammy's town.
TTH is probtown.
Shadow I'm not touching.
Bulbazak's getting a pass.
Aronis may be town.
Cheetory is town enough.
Gamma looks fine.
CDB is good enough for now.
Marquis is kinda...ehhhh.
DV is just...ehhhhhhhhhh.
Empire's scum.
Espeonage is scum.


Leaves ActionDan, GIF, Titus, TSO, and UT to sort.

Titus and DV are god tier town to us atm. So is Tammy.

Why are you not touching Shadoweh? Why are you giving Bulba a pass?

Pretty sure Empire slot isn't scum.

Your to sort pile is strange. What do you need that you aren't getting from her posts to sort Titus?

What are your thoughts about the UT/Singer interactions?

[fferyllt]

@Ffery...Regfan would like me to remind you to clarify your town read on Titus.

Town-Titus tends to be more fluid and reactive to data hitting the game thread during the early game. She has a focus later in the game on a sort of simplistic looking (to me anyway) VCA that drives me batshit crazy, but I won't have to deal directly with it in this game. her scum play is way more agenda driven and shows much less reaction and flexibility. Nacho also has her as strong town.

The one thing that stands out a little is how her team is apparently affecting her play. I'm not seeing much of this so far of other players, nor in other games. It goes beyond team-informed reads. It's affecting her play style in ways that I haven't seen from her in the few times I've played with her as a hydra. It's a curiosity to me more than a worry given my overall impression of her stances and her lines of questioning.

Can you explain RegFan's read of her to me?

He would also like me to pass along his reads list...I'm not really sure how to do that without actually C/Ping it, so...

Let's just say that these reads more or less go in descending order of towniness:

Vezok ***[/quote] - agree

DV ***

- agree

Cheer ***

- agree
[Gap]

TSO ***

- he's null-town to me. I'm growing (more) concerned about that relayed cabd reachout that didn't go anywhere.

Tammy ***

- the strength of our read here is much more townward, and quite a bit of our initial scumread of your slot had to do with what I consider to be a mindbogglingly horrible misread of her. Nacho, if anything, reads her more strongly than I do. The kind of read that if you get wrong, you question why you play mafia at all.

[Gap]

Aronis

- I'd like to hear more about this read

Bulb

- and this one

GIF *

Marquis *

- how has Marquis play over the last couple calendar days affected this read?

Esp.

- scum read

Titus *

- we clearly differ here and I'd like to understand more about why

Mastin

- mastin has been a null to null-scum read to me prior to last night and Nacho hasn't mentioned her at all so far. I'm leaning town somewhat from her recent posts. When she's town, I find that she tends to be a self referential tidepool in a game that for me resembles churning waves and strong eddies.

UT *

- our read has gone in the town direction after initially thinking he's scum.

CDB ***

- similar to UT.

Gamma *

- both Nacho and I are leaning town.

AD

- scumread.
[Gap]

TTH

- scumeread

Shadoweh ***

- I have no idea how to read early-game Shadoweh and the vaguest ideas how to read her later in the game. Nacho thinks the stuff that has pinged for me makes sense from town-Shadoweh, so overall leaning town.

[fferyllt]

mastin I'm not townreading tth so you declaring her town doesn't do much for me.

Same with bulba.

And your scumreads are also a mixed bag of meh.

I'm reading you on the basis of other stuff, not your reads.

[fferyllt]

Espe looks a lot worse for it than UT did IMO, and I like most of his content since then.

Caveat that I don't have much experience playing with UT. Nacho does have experience, however and he reached the same read at the same time pretty much independently because I was tablet-bound and saving up my posts for when I had my laptop.

[fferyllt]

Espe what are T-Bone's thoughts about this game?

[fferyllt]

You're not going to strong-arm me into a townread. Sorry.

[fferyllt]

Mastin, you know for a fact that you and I take a while to develop reads on each other usually. It goes both ways in most games.

[fferyllt]

Espe what are T-Bone's thoughts about this game?

He hasn't posted about it past the little thing about marq.

I'm surprised he hasn't had something to say about UT.

[fferyllt]

I'm confused.

[fferyllt]

refgan did, I thought. I butchered a couple quote tags.

[fferyllt]

um...I thgink you asked him to explain a few of his reads?

...

this is awkward...

I only asked you about his titus read.

This feels like pretty weak reasoning for scumreading her.

[fferyllt]

GiF I'm not feeling so good about you being town lately. It makes me inexpressibly sad.

[fferyllt]

@Gamma

Nacho wants to know what the fuck that singer vote was. he's calling it garbage.

[fferyllt]

I'm not pushing. Butt out please.

[fferyllt]

she looks kinda lost to me. In the original image you can just barely see her canines.

[fferyllt]

Oh also btw, Butt out from what?
It's not like we're doing anything reach-out-y or going over reads are we?

hard to do that stuff when you're never around except for drive bys.

[fferyllt]

I'm around more than you think i do.
It's just whenever I see a bookmark this game has like 8 pages from last day and I go "fuck this lol" while I just glance over last 2 pages.
Surely you've noticed that I've been answering stuffs directed at me right?

I have, and that worries me a little too.

[fferyllt]

I'd like to know what your current reads are in the not too distant future.

[fferyllt]

If I had a vote I'd be voting gamma.

the singer wagon reeks and his reasons for voting her are terrible.

[fferyllt]

You could!

[fferyllt]

I probably won't get an answer from Nacho before morning.

[fferyllt]

What is this close to deadline shit?

[fferyllt]

Which is town.

Agree.

[fferyllt]

Really, ika mislynchable? Since when? In any game with me, regardless of my alignment, ika has not been mislynched in years I think.

Mafia on the Air.

[fferyllt]

oh wait. he was nk'd. never mind.

[fferyllt]

@ffery- how much has nacho actually played with singer btw?

@ffery- how much has nacho actually played with singer btw?

he says not a lot, and points out that singer doesn't play a lot.

also i know fuck meta and it's still early game and everything else aaaand I wouldn't bring this up at all if I wasn't already scumreading her for her tone but her play does seem more like http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=17388 metamafia than maiden http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=22173 or Chosen Ones http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

I wish I could quote his reaction to this meta. Your case is awful. he doesn't think of town-you as being awful.

[fferyllt]

@Gamma

Nacho wants to know what the fuck that singer vote was. he's calling it garbage.

best way to describe it is probably that singer feels like she's trying to display her emotions as much as possible to get read as town for how she's reacting to the things happening around her. it doesn't feel like she's legitimately suspicious of anyone - just that she's bouncing off everything that's been happening.

granted, i could see her potentially doing it as town because of her playstyle whereas most of the playerlist doing something like that I would probably go completely berserk on getting them lynched, I just think that it's still more likely to be coming from her as scum than town.

Is drunk an emotion?

I feel (and so does Nacho) that she's been using interactions to get her head in the game during the catch-up process. The catch-up feels uncomfortable - it's a huge game that has the input of somewhere close to 80 players to disentangle and sort through. Feeling uncomfortable pitched headfirst into that doesn't strike me as scummy. Players who are trading places in these games have more of a leg-up even in this game.

[fferyllt]

good thing that wasn't a case!

[fferyllt]

@fery

Code: Select all

Townreads

ChannelDelibird.
Cheetory6.
GuyinFreezer.
Marquis.
Mastin2.
Tammy.
Titus.

Why is DV not a townread?

[fferyllt]

I feel as good about DV and UT town as I do Marquis being town. I feel good about singer town, too, but mostly on the basis of Empire's trajectories and his replace out. I'd have a null-town read on her in isolation. Nacho feels more strongly about town-her, which basically puts her conditionally in my townbloc.

[fferyllt]

mine is middling, and mostly based on nacho having a strong town read.

In fact all of those except singer are reads where I'm putting a lot of weight on nacho's thoughts.

functionally, this is pretty much a sangres game.

[fferyllt]

You and Nacho are sangres FFery...that explains a lot of Walking Dead...

I don't know what this means.

[fferyllt]

I know that. I just don't understand what it explains.

[fferyllt]

It's not dissonance. It's recognition of where my own data/experience/skill is weaker than my partner's. When I'm "dissonant" with any hydra head I'm open about it. It's called transparency and I feel like it lets other town players read both heads, not simply the amalgam.

It's also the same type of working together that I do with my hydra partners (and others) when we aren't hydraing - I work with my townreads and I look to augment my known weaknesses with their known strengths.

[fferyllt]

there is 100% certainty that some of the input into this game is multi-headed.

I think being able to discern the motivations behind that input is actually pretty crucial.

[fferyllt]

Ok, then we'll keep going.

To me dissonance is when two heads disagree on something. Yes one player can be better than another and work as a team, but it's still dissonance to me. When you claim it's not, I think you are scum. Plus when you then shift back and forth as to which head is "lead" it looks like you can change your mind to whatever whenever.

Mind changes have to be grounded in data. if they don't line up somehow with data, including meta data for both heads together and separately, then they are suspicious. even gut reads have a basis.

in this game the lead head is constant unless there's a replacement, but the timing, content and relayed tone of team input is relevant.

[fferyllt]

Titus I dunno about that game. I wasn't in it that long. I don't remember getting worked up about dissonance in your hydra. But I do know that if you adopt or grow a play style that doesn't fit what other players expect of you or even the generic ms player, then it's an uphill road to make that your new town meta. I feel like my style didn't fit site expectations when I started playing here and I steadily demonstrated that my style works for me and is actually readable. We clash horribly in most games because our styles are extremely divergent and we don't respect each others' past results (I think this goes both ways). I have a meta of being transparent about what both heads of my hydrae are thinking. It's not a one-off thing, it's a feature of every game I play as a hydra.

[fferyllt]

@titus/singer : i have no compunctions about working with you persay. This game is incredibly long both in wall posts and page numbers so I'll be able to give you a read/analysis of any one or two particular players at a time. Make a suggestion and ill go from there

I really don't like seeing you take a consulting stance like this.

[fferyllt]

he's asking others to give him assignments. There is plenty of surface data in the thread that would suggest how to prioritize, and doing so - prioritizing - would be the town thing to do IMO.

[fferyllt]

@FFery, After today's first lynch, I would like to try an exercise that has us work together. We will post our townreads. Those who we match on, we do not lynch or push. Then we each toggle down until we get to four remaining players. We then agree the second lynch is within those four and put our town weight behind it. I would like to stop sucking as widely townread plus force myself to work with people even if I do not always agree with their reads and this seems like a method to do that.

I want to work with all of my town reads toward some consensus for both lynches. To the extent this looks like it fits with my overarching goals as the game progresses, I'm game.

[fferyllt]

Gun to your head. Please GiF. Hell put your teams thoughts if you refuse.

All scums in here:

Code: Select all

Actiondan.
Aronis.
Bulbazak.
Deasvail.
singersigner. (Empire.) (Zar.)
Espeonage.
Gammagooey.
Shadoweh.
TellTaleHeart. (Antihero.)
T S O.
Untrod Tripod.
Vezokpiraka.

Also the only one who's even following this game is ika!

That pile needs some sorting. I'd start by moving vezok out of it, I think.

[fferyllt]

I figured!

And the first thing that jumped out at me was that you're not town reading Vezok.

[fferyllt]

fwiw I don't support a GiF lynch.

[fferyllt]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: esp

I'm good with this.

[fferyllt]

Oh and I am steadfastly against TTH claiming.

I don't understand why you're townreading her so strongly.

@GiF what is the post number of the town tell?

[fferyllt]

@Singer, I don't want to unilaterally make decisions. Stop twisting. That block of unlynchable players would be decided by both of us at a minimum. Any plan can be broken if scum have fooled us even if we're working together. This lynch isn't about placing blame, it's about sealing off mislynches and coordinating. How else do you expect townblocks to work together if not exluding

mutual

townreads? This looks like flail. I do want an epic towngame but not one where I am shouting and marginalized.

Also, how do you get from nitpicking and not understanding to assuming scum motivation? Do you understand my posts or not?

The small size is also really fucking annoying.

@FFery, Am I right? Is Singer Flailing here?

I don't think so. Not the sort of thing I consider to be flail.

[fferyllt]

The way I see it, no one is working together right now, no one is compromising, people are melting into the night, not being held accountable, and being stubborn about who they want lynched when, based on the fact that after 80 pages we still have 6-7 different people being voted. Your appeal to someone who can't even vote is lofty at best.

How can I flail when I'm discussing the motivations of someone who isn't even voting me? I'm in no danger of getting lynched. I'm not shouting at you. I'm not marginalizing you. I'm simply pointing out where I saw the flaw in your plan and asking you to acknowledge it.

I feel like I should be a huge help in giving town a balanced center today. It's mostly not happening. I'm not sure why. Maybe you can tell me why you're not really engaging me. It seems to be a chronic thing.

[fferyllt]

Oh and I am steadfastly against TTH claiming.

I don't understand why you're townreading her so strongly.

@GiF what is the post number of the town tell?

Mostly wagon composition and terrible pushes for TTH to claim.

So not based on her play so much as others'.

You're always going to be in conflict with reads-based players if that's how you decide who's town.

[fferyllt]

ah. you explained that already and I agreed with you.

[fferyllt]

And your reason for thinking bulba is town in this game is one recent game where he was scum, as near as I can tell.

[fferyllt]

town doctor and scum share some motivations. I've tunneled more doctors than I think any other PR in the games where I've mistaken PR tells for scum tells.

[fferyllt]

Ok, I usually apply that to lurking/activity rather than the logical content/depth of a post. For players who read off reactions, I can see what I feel is a misread as both share the same survivalistic tendancies.

both also tend to look for town PRs, who may also appear survivalistic. It's the PR antennae that I usually notice.

[fferyllt]

GiF you could be making a little more effort to utilize my time.

[fferyllt]

I'm not sure what to make of this. Really, this is quite horrible. Please just give me a complete reads list now, because I think Mollie is right and your reads are way out there.

Ask mollie what to make of it.

[fferyllt]

Regarding Espeonage, ffery, I'd really appreciate your thoughts on why he's scum. I know I've already asked you and you probably have your reasons for withholding it, which is cool, but if you don't or it's not really bad if you do reveal your thoughts, I would really like to hear them.

My initial reasoning is that llamarble and nacho both feel it's likely that espeonage used a token on drawing a scum role. Maybe this has predisoposed me to read everything he does in a scummy light, but I've hated pretty much everything about his interactions with Tammy. I don't like his Marquis push either.

[fferyllt]

I've asked my team to review your posts.

[fferyllt]

I will admit that I do prefer playing scum. I've referenced in a few places however that I readily take the opportunity to dilute that meta by taking town. Across all the CYS games I took scum at least once, third party once and town at least once. As I addressed earlier, I have a much better town game than scum game, this matters to me so I am more inclined to invest in town.

I know it's all wifom, but if that is a major concern it should probably be put aside. As for the other points, that's your opinion and if you think they've been scummy then fine, but I honestly feel that I have been trying to get myself heard which I still don't feel is close to happening.

why should it be put aside? It's your word against what people think you would do. It's quite mafiaesque!

[fferyllt]

I completely fail to see why people actually think esp is going to flip scum aside from "oh mannn that VT claim and comments about detecting was bad play and could have been a scum gambit" while ignoring the rest of his actual play.

None of those are reasons I've cited? Who are these people you're referring to?

[fferyllt]

@ff I just dont think the token argument is worth much of anything compared to his actual play.

Which would be a pretty cool refutal if that were the sum total of my argument.

Your comment seemed pretty out of the blue coming in the midst of a discussion between espe and me, given I was the only one who had stepped up to the plate to answer DV's question so far. It's like you're refuting an argument that's not being advanced atm.

[fferyllt]

I completely fail to see why people actually think esp is going to flip scum aside from "oh mannn that VT claim and comments about detecting was bad play and could have been a scum gambit" while ignoring the rest of his actual play.

Also the people im referring to I guess are cdb and ut, I just dont remember seeing anything from them about esp aside from 'yeah sure lynching him is fine'

I don't remember them saying stuff about the VT claim and comments about detecting, and it looks like you're actually complaining about them not making arguments for his lynch.

[fferyllt]

yea, iso/ctl-f isn't turning up any obvious about the VT or espe's comments about detecting.

[fferyllt]

You don't see why they're on the wagon so you make up reasons?

[fferyllt]

Mastin you absolutely can't run up a town bloc and exclude the confirmed town who's days are numbered.

[fferyllt]

Mastin you absolutely can't run up a town bloc and exclude the confirmed town who's days are numbered.

I can and have.

I have my conditions. Trust in my townbloc's members to all be town.

You don't fit that parameter. So you're not in.

No. You and I talk out our differences and we figure out what we agree on.

I absolutely won't be marginalized. Get used to it.

[fferyllt]

Mastin, convince me tth is town. talk about it in concrete terms about her play, not just your interpretation of other players' stances on her. I'm not convinced she's scum but she has not looked all that town to me.

I disagree about DV.

You'll have to convince both me and nacho about singer. We both townread Empire's replace out.

Aside from putting AD a little further down the list, those are our major disagreements.

So, work with me on getting someone we agree is scum lynched, or convince me (and my team) I'm wrong on two of my townreads.

[fferyllt]

well, bulbazak too, but I'm not going to be able to read him in the amount of time I have most likely, so I'm not going to push him most likely.

[fferyllt]

My noncontroversial townreads are you, tammy/oversoul, and cheetory I think. Players I think are town and will work with to the extent the gamestate (and their reads) allow are GiF, CDB, Mastin, and Vezok. There are a couple other townreads, but right now it feels like we're playing this game in alternate universes and I think that reads agreement will be coincidental. Or I'm swimming against the game's current in townreading them and I expect them to be lynched when I'm dead unless the night game dictates otherwise.

[fferyllt]

You just disagreed with Mastina's scumread on DV, but he's not in your townreads. Oversight?

No. Right now I feel like DV and Marquis are in the alternate universe category. DV to a lesser extent than marquis because he's at least talking about his reads and stances.

[fferyllt]

You'll have to convince both me and nacho about singer. We both townread Empire's replace out.

What part of the replace out looked town to you? The mental health explanation is absolutely not alignment indicative, and I think it's pretty obvious that Empire would be putting in a lot of effort into his last post of the game to try to help out his team before he goes as either alignment.

I'll discuss this in a bit. I'm trying to do too many things at once, and this is a thing that needs a good explanation.

[fferyllt]

You just disagreed with Mastina's scumread on DV, but he's not in your townreads. Oversight?

Why don't the three of us work together and exclude GiF, Cheetory, Marquis, TTH, Vezok, DV, Bulba and Shadoweh from the lynch pool today. We maintain our independent reads though?

Acknowledged Oversoul. Once I get my townreads working together I will.

I am going to be working with GiF, Cheetory and CDB as well as you and Oversoul. And maybe Mastin. She can decide if she wants to field a competing townbloc today, but it will be a competing town bloc if that's what she does, and on her head be it if it turns out that two townblocs are bad for town as a whole.

[fferyllt]

@bulba,

This is my one reach-out to you. If you want to convince me you're town or work with me in this game, then it will have to be without further posts that I interpret as sniping and discrediting. Talk about your reads, not my shortcomings.

[fferyllt]

You just disagreed with Mastina's scumread on DV, but he's not in your townreads. Oversight?

Why don't the three of us work together and exclude GiF, Cheetory, Marquis, TTH, Vezok, DV, Bulba and Shadoweh from the lynch pool today. We maintain our independent reads though?

Acknowledged Oversoul. Once I get my townreads working together I will.

I am going to be working with GiF, Cheetory and CDB as well as you and Oversoul. And maybe Mastin. She can decide if she wants to field a competing townbloc today, but it will be a competing town bloc if that's what she does, and on her head be it if it turns out that two townblocs are bad for town as a whole.

What happened to me?

I'm seeing you similar to dv and marquis. I don't really know what is driving your stances, though we have some areas of apparent agreement. As such, I have no way of knowing if our reads are converging or diverging.

[fferyllt]

What happened since 1917 FFery?

What read are you asking about?

[fferyllt]

I don't think you grasp the difference between feeling someone is town and feeling someone is town and also sympatico.

I kind of thought that ceph would build a bridge but it hasn't happened.

[fferyllt]

Uncouth Mafia would be an extreme example.

[fferyllt]

:/

[fferyllt]

mind meld would be an extreme example of town that share enough of a vision of the game state to work together.

the emote was about the vote.

[fferyllt]

I just finished a game with scum-singer.

Doesn't look at all like her play in this game. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=60566

You have to factor replacing in and stuff and newbie vs what this game is.

[fferyllt]

@Mastin If nacho thinks there's any reason to try to work with you here once he's around and caught up today, I'll make the effort.

[fferyllt]

well, bulbazak too, but I'm not going to be able to read him in the amount of time I have most likely, so I'm not going to push him most likely.

Bulbazak's basically town because this is him, thinking for himself, having solid thoughts, directing things, planning things, analyzing things, and working with others, in contrast to when he's scum, posting weak content, not very much at the forefront, largely just blending in, and such.

...That is a HORRIBLE description. But basically, the stuff he's doing is highly town. Mollie via him as a proxy was pretty dang town (yes, I do get reads off of people via their teammates), there's thoughts from him that I find highly unlikely to come from scum, him aligning with me so much is something that generally comes from his townself not his scumself, basically, there's a ton of stuff that just piles up. It's nothing really specific. Just lots of things here and there that make him...well, just be town.

Mastin you modded ny 164. Do you think his play fit the picture you're painting?

[fferyllt]

@mastin

That is a true statement.

I'm not biting your head off about it because I'm townreading you and will continue to probably for my duration in the game.

[fferyllt]

My picture of Bulb is shaped by every game he's been in that I've encountered him in. From there to the mini where he was scum to both Hilarious Unbalanced games where he was town to that one Fire and Ice game. I don't have Bulba on my AP-level readscale yet where I can instaread him. I do have him at the Nacho-level where my read on him is at least 75% likely to be correct, given how well I've begun to understand him. In fact, given how little I interact with Nacho these days, I'd say that I'm closer to and more accurate with Bulbazak than with him.

And given this, he is town.

Contrary to what you may think, I don't hold my ability to read Bulba super high. I have mislynched him when he was town, and I've misread him when he's town but was concerned enough not to push his lynch early and let the game unfold. You were in both of those games as Calcifer. There have been a few other games, but those set the stage for me.

Anyway, although I'm glad he can be investigated by town, I'm not pushing his lynch right now.

The only reason I can even see for ever getting behind a singer lynch today is to force needed rethinks/resets (mine, yours or others). And in my case if a rethink is needed better the first lynch than the last. I doubt Nacho will agree with me about that given the strength of his townread.

There is no question about the Sangres alignment in this game. I do not understand why you're discounting us both on the only day we'll be here to talk with.

[fferyllt]

@mastin
That is a true statement.
I'm not biting your head off about it because I'm townreading you and will continue to probably for my duration in the game.

Don't apply the double-standard.

Either don't townread me or townread Bulba. Or at the least, admit it's null. If it's null from me, it's null from him.

doesn't work that way. it's not two apples. I understand your arrogance as a sometime-town thing. I don't have that confidence about bulba and I feel like mollie made a very direct attempt at discrediting me from afar.

[fferyllt]

@Mastin - Nacho says he trusts you. But he totally, totally disagrees with your Singer read. We do not want to spend our one day on this game's earth watching our strong townreads get lynched. I think you can understand that even if we're not seeing eye to eye on who we think is town.

Let's lynch someone we both think is scum.

[fferyllt]

@Mastin - Nacho says he trusts you. But he totally, totally disagrees with your Singer read. We do not want to spend our one day on this game's earth watching our strong townreads get lynched. I think you can understand that even if we're not seeing eye to eye on who we think is town.

Let's lynch someone we both think is scum.

[fferyllt]

:/

[fferyllt]

fucking busting my ass arguing against your wagon.

[fferyllt]

Mastin's ears shouldn'tbe deaf to Nacho.

And you're doing exactly what Titus is doing - directly undermining my efforts to work out a consensus lynch so I don't really care what either of you rage about in each other's play. I think you're both town so I'm not going to yell for either of you to be wagonned about it.

I think the lynch pool that might net a consensus lynch is {Action Dan, Aronis...espe} with espe trailing the other two because DV and Marquis may be a voting bloc.

[fferyllt]

Ffery, what do you think of my case on TTH/Shadoweh?

I'm going to defer to Nacho on reading Shadoweh because he has a ton more experience at it. There are specific things that have bothered me about her play, but Nacho says it makes sense coming from town-Shadoweh with the exception of one recent issue I'm waiting for him to weigh in on. I'm assuming you have a fair bit of past experience with her too, so I'm quite curious to see what Nacho makes of your case.

I have a very specific concern about tth' play which I'm holding close right now. I was fine with her coming under some pressure today. I kinda wish it had been stronger pressure but that's water under the bridge.

I haven't addressed your cases at all, I know. I probably will in a couple days once gestalt actually is all caught up and gestalting.

[fferyllt]

Mastin's ears shouldn'tbe deaf to Nacho.

What does this mean, and what does it tell you that she's not even remotely humoring him?

It tells me that she wanted something specific from nacho.

The question isn't whether mastin's town.

[fferyllt]

I asked you for a reads list. Where is it? I want to know for sure where you're standing on everything so I can begin to address the differences in our reads.

a formal list will hit the thread when I've finished discussing some stuff with my team. I think I've talked enough about players/reads that there won't be much in the way of surprises.

[fferyllt]

conf town is a strong statement.

[fferyllt]

I will have to have a townread before trust is an option.

[fferyllt]

Also, how about posting your reads list?

[fferyllt]

No one ever answered my question of why Espeonage is leading wagon
Also why was Vezok booned. That seemed not very good play and very odd coming from Fferylt from what I remember

going to vote me for it?

[fferyllt]

I can't be booned, voted or night actioned. I'm a tree stump with a shelf life.

oversoul what are your thoughts on espe?

[fferyllt]

I should really learn to go to bed sometimes. Anyway, here's the readslist you wanted Ffery:

Town

Shadoweh
Oversoul
Mastin2
Titus
DeasVail
TellTaleHeart
GuyInFreezer
TSO
ActionDan

Null/Town

Cheetory6
Vezokpiraka

Null

Gammagooey
Marquis
Espeonage

Null/Scum

Untrod Tripod
ChannelDelibird
Aronis

Scum

Singersigner

Admittedly, the borders of these categories are a little more in flux than usual. I actually moved them back and forth several times. Reads like AD, Espeonage, and Aronis are right on those lines. Several reads are also strongly influenced by my town reads as well as my team.

You are godt tier townreading Shadoweh for her reasoning about Empire and your strongest scum read is the player she reasoned was town.

[fferyllt]

[ActionDan, Aronis, Bulbazak, GiF]

That's a pretty terrible lynch pool.

More details on this and updates:
I said it was a terrible lynch pool because it fits the profile for who scum would put in their lynchpool. There's two definite lurkers in there that's a pretty safe bet to push on: ActionDan and Aronis. They've both already demonstrated that they probably won't make much of an effort to defend themselves and no one can really justify a town read on either of them, barring role related information. GiF arguably fits into the "lurker" category too, but only in the sense that he's fairly low profile, not really making waves so far (not necessarily for lack of trying), and he's a question mark on a few other people's lists. ffery comes to mind as one of those people. This is also a pretty safe push. I refer to these as "safe pushes" simply because reasons for voting them aren't really there. Even with scum lurkers, those reasons usually exist and can be articulated, but DV hasn't really made an attempt to convincingly do so. Bulbazak, of course, has to make an appearance since DV was pushing him earlier. Even though the vote on ActionDan hasn't ever progressed past the "vanity" stage, the vote stays there even though a vote on Bulbazak (which is much more substantiated and much less neglected) would have the same impact on the overall vote count. So why is the vote on ActionDan?

tl;dr: On the surface, this lynch pool looks like a plausible team but it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny and the vote placement doesn't match real estate allocation in the DV's posts.

he

was

a question mark.

[fferyllt]

Also, Mollie says that you both had the same mentor. It's not a mindset I agree with, since I keep PRs in mind when I scumhunt, but I can kinda see how you can get there.

I do too. it took me a while to calibrate that range of my scumdar, and the calibration took place well before I started playing at ms. I was talking very past tense in terms of my own game experience. In quite a few ms games, I've seen town prs come under heavy suspicion by other town players. I didn't look at the game Titus mentioned you'd been heavily suspected and were the doctor, but I'm aware of the similarities (and differences) in doc play vs scum looking for prs via behavioral tells (not crumbs).

I was surprised you took such strong exception to the convo, which is why I suggested you check with mollie.

[fferyllt]

@Ffery: If you can't explain anything else, can you at least explain the Vezok town read. I've been trusting so much in my townreads that he's town, but I'm not seeing what anyone else is.

based on meta, we think he's obvtown. as far as the boon goes, we were looking at players we thought were both really, really town and would not be priorities for night kill. Nacho and I both liked regfan's suggested strategy for booning.

@oversoul

I'm trying to figure out whether you are kinda picking up where Tammy left off, or if you're starting from scratch with your reads.

I'd like to know your thoughts on espe since your slot has interacted with him quite a bit.

[fferyllt]

So I went back over Nacho's comments about singer to see if I didn't express them as forcefully as he did and I realized that I left out a bunch of adjectives about singer's early posts after replacing Empire.

he liked her quick engagement and energy and he thinks that's way more likely to be expressed by town singer than by scum singer.

Nacho reacted pretty strongly to gamma's post about singer trying too hard to show her emotions in the game to get a town read. he said she was excited, aggressive, frustrated, uncomfortable, etc. And he said the uncomfortableness looked like it was due to catching up on a big monstrosity of a game.

And I will say that it looked organic to me - not like a show.

[fferyllt]

gamma sometimes it freaks me out how fast you respond when your name is mentioned.

[fferyllt]

@Ffery: Also, the reason why I keep having trouble with the Vezok town read is the way he's been acting in regards to his reads. At first I thought I might have just had a knee jerk response to his reads being so different to mine, but I feel that he keeps ignoring obvious lines of inquiry just to push push push. It's more pushing and less analysis. I also didn't like how he jumped off of TTH, who he was hard scumreading, to jump onto Aronis with me, another of his scum reads. That move didn't make sense to me, as there was no reason or indicator for his move off of TTH. I also didn't like his last attack on me at the end of minor day 1. It felt more like rubbing salt in the wounds and is what I normally equate with scum getting too greedy with a push instead of overzealous town. I mean, I've read Vezok as obv. town before, but I'm just not seeing it here.

P-edit: I've quoted your previous question in the PT. I haven't heard back from her. As far as I recall, she hasn't really given me a read on you. I'll try to see if I can push that through.

have you played with vezok much?