8:4 Vanilla Nightless [TM2015] - GAME OVER

[Nachomamma8]

vote : sotty7

Serious vote.

Last time I played with her, she left the site (or almost left the site?) because she was tired of the paranoia following her around because of her scum game. I doubt she has enough confidence or desire to play around that paranoia when it's correct/deal with the added pressure of getting lynched.

[Nachomamma8]

Keeping the thread short and parsable is going to be important as hell to securing a town win: spamming the shit out of it and chucklefucking in the usual style is going to discourage the legendary scumhunters from posting more, which means less cool scumhunting if they're town or less opportunities to catch them if they're scum. Normally, I wouldn't be so stick up the ass boring but I want a perfect town win and you want a perfect town win and we're not going to get it if we alienate everyone else.

[Nachomamma8]

(come to Chicago)

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Metal Sonic

i looked at this playerlist and i decided to not put any tokens lol

Playerlists were revealed after token submissions and alignments were assigned. So how did you come to assign your tokens after the fact?

(Nacho, you better be town here and make this way easier for me.)

i spent 5 tokens on game selection and my team got all our desired games.

cause i had no more tokens left to spend

Honesty is the best policy, especially when you're absolutely horrible at lying!

[Nachomamma8]

This does not resolve the dissonance here. Your phrasing in #18 says that the playerlist was a direct cause of your assignation of tokens. I'm saying that's impossible because the playerlist was the last bit of information we got.

dude i used "and" not "so".

its a coordinating conjunction not a subordinating conjunction.
its not a subordinate clause. semantically i could go anal but im not that kind of person.


so...

i guess i will have to admit

that I lied! tee hee!!!

Why?

[Nachomamma8]

Hmmm,

Nacho

, why did interject regarding Grey's vote on Sotty before she'd posted?

I'm not interested in seeing it become a major point of discussion because it's a line of thought that's going to leave Grey tied up with stupid shit and Sotty annoyed with Grey, which will make them less effective as town and won't really end up putting either of them in a position that's even mildly uncomfortable if scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Silverwolf

[Nachomamma8]

my goal right now is to build a town bloc of any size. if we get that in a nightless its basically impossible to lose

I like this thinking. There are several players I am more than willing to bloc up with. (Hoopla, ABR, Nacho, Empire)

yea the activity is digustingly low for a game start

Well I work all day in a job where I have no internet access. Expect my posting to be around this time every evening, weekends are more accessible.

vote : sotty7

Serious vote.

Last time I played with her, she left the site (or almost left the site?) because she was tired of the paranoia following her around because of her scum game. I doubt she has enough confidence or desire to play around that paranoia when it's correct/deal with the added pressure of getting lynched.

Yeah this is true. I've pretty much stopped playing for the most part unless I get the itch and find a game/player list I really like the look of. I'm playing in Team Mafia because our team won all our games in the last one but were only beaten by The Captains on points so Zor gave us an auto in for this one.

i want to know if Hoopla can be considered a "legendary scumhunter"

lol

I like ZZZX a lot. My strongest town read at this point. Actively searching and making some good points (#82 wegurts discrepancy in voting ABR and not GreyICE) and his idea to form a voting bloc is something I'm all about

ABR is also probably town here. Passion in his posts. If he isn't it will show over time, he becomes extremely apathetic when scum.

Empire can be town also for post 105. Thinking the same thing.

Vote: GreyICE

Because "tokens" is bullshit and voting me over Hoopla in that respect is even worse.

You claimed to be voting me because I was likely to use tokens to make myself scum. That is untrue, it is pretty well known I favor town if any tokens were to be spent on me it would be in that direction as Nacho hinted at. Not only that but you said that Hoopla was more likely to push a token scum draw than myself yet your vote is on me. Why me over her? You're going after the weaker of the two options you listed for yourself and that's not the GreyICE I remember at all.

Vote: Silverwolf

Allow me to ask...

Why?

I hate pointless votes without explanation at this stage of game. There are a few wagons that actually somewhat started but yet you are here contributing ... nothing with this vote? not even any kind of reasoning?

your town points in my opinion just went down a bit

Sotty wagon isn't a wagon. I'm giving GreyICE time to follow his line of thought since he seems town and Sorry doesn't yet seem town, but his reasoning doesn't excite me or interest me in any shape or form, thus probably not gonna sheep there.

Metal Sonic wagon seems decent I guess? His posting outside of the lying for no reason seems fine, but I'm not particularly inclined to pursue that lying line while I am still posting on a phone and can't really efficiently quote things.

If there's another wagon, didn't notice.

I'm joining ABR on Silverwolf because those two posts lacked any sort of personality at all: they sounded like Microsoft Sam in written form, and that's not what I expected to read out of Silverwolf this game. It does make sense for nervous scum at this juncture.

[Nachomamma8]

Words from the peanut gallery are, to paraphrase: Empire likes playing as town and this looks like town empire, and:

You claimed to be voting me because I was likely to use tokens to make myself scum. That is untrue, it is pretty well known I favor town if any tokens were to be spent on me it would be in that direction as Nacho hinted at. Not only that but you said that Hoopla was more likely to push a token scum draw than myself yet your vote is on me.

Why me over her?

You're going after the weaker of the two options you listed for yourself and that's not the GreyICE I remember at all.

Well, "why me..." (finishing the quote should be left as an exercise to the reader) Nacho, I know you subscribe, what do you think now?

This wgeurts/Metal Sonic shit is rubbing me super duper wrong.

I don't think that you're intepreting her post correctly, but I'd rather leave her to clarify.

[Nachomamma8]

Empire, we used 2 tokens toward town in this game, one token towards town everywhere else.

I also have ZZZX/wgeurts as unshakeable town reads at this point, and I'm pretty sure that Silverwolf will flip scum when we lynch her: Llamarble brought up the possibility first and he was 100% correct.

[Nachomamma8]

That means I disagree!

He said that normally clashes end in the mislynch of either wgeurts or ABR. Why do you think scum-wg thinks he can clash with town-ABR and win?

Provoking him out of his playstyle was making a concentrated effort to read him so that he didn't accidentally mislynch him again, which is a fine continuation of thought from the original read.

I'm looking at the trajectory of his read on you now.

[Nachomamma8]

ZZZX, Empire and Nacho are all town.
ABR my gut says is town.
MS I'm taking others words for him being town until I see him giving some content that says otherwise.

This isn't a strong townread.

[Nachomamma8]

If I said I knew what you were trying to say with the first question, I'd be a dirty dirty liar. Llamarble felt that the token lying was scummy but feels he's said some good :town: things with questionable bits mixed in, and fferys still pissed at you because you snubbed her earlier.

[Nachomamma8]

if you mean why did I take a different approach than I did initially, my initial response was an emotional one and probably not the best move. grey's gonna do what grey's gonna do and Sotty can handle herself just fine.

[Nachomamma8]

What do you think about Silverwolf and why aren't we lynching her together? I stayed up so long for you to show up and I have to admit I was just a little bit disappointed with you still making that push. Just a little bit, though.

[Nachomamma8]

Did Llamarble elaborate on the :town: things in your PT?

No, but they should be pretty obvious!

[Nachomamma8]

For me, the metal sonic case is missing an answer to the whole "why would he lie?" question, although random posts grind my gears for some reason.

[Nachomamma8]

Earnest tone in his cases is pretty fucking good + reach out to me and legendary scumhunter greyice seems pretty dank genuine, off the top of my head.

[Nachomamma8]

For me, the metal sonic case is missing an answer to the whole "why would he lie?" question, although random posts grind my gears for some reason.

Does Metal Sonic prefer being scum?

No.

[Nachomamma8]

And why anyone would prefer scum in this particular setup is beyond me.

[Nachomamma8]

Empire, can you tell Regfan his read on wgeurts is not good?
Can you tell me you know his wgeurts read is not good?

[Nachomamma8]

Sleeping now.

[Nachomamma8]

Lied, one more question: Where have you played with Metal Sonic, dear Empire?

[Nachomamma8]

He's referring to the first iteration of the Mini Theme game.

[Nachomamma8]

GreyICE, don't lose sight of your wgeurts town read.

Vote: Sotty

[Nachomamma8]

Sorry for being contrary guys!

I still think wolf slot is a fine vote, although a bit less so.
Sotty, unfortunately, is forming up to be an ok vote at this stage.
Seraphim is a great vote.

I'd like to bring Sotty into the game at this point because I find I do best when I have a couple of sounding boards in thread to work with and now that Empire's gone, Sotty is probably the player I feel the most comfortable with, but I'd like her in the game and talking about things instead of letting Grey dictate interactions and her just sitting on the peripheral.

I also love Hoopla's entrance in a "good player" sort of way, although the Eddie vote doesn't seem like the strongest direction we can take at this stage.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Kagami

[Nachomamma8]

I hate hate hate hate hate hate hate how Kagami is approaching the Grey/Sotty situation.

[Nachomamma8]

ya sure what do you want me to post bb

[Nachomamma8]

I want your thoughts on the following players:

Seraphim
GreyICE
Albert B. rampage
Any updates on your wgeurts read?


If members on your team (including ffery) could chip in that'll be great!

I think all of these people are town.
I think Hoopla is scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Ffery has other things I want her to worry about, but will ask for thoughts eventually
tomorrow is my off day and I don't have plans

[Nachomamma8]

He was talking, and then he wasn't talking.
Why do you think my read changed, Zar?

[Nachomamma8]

And, if you're going to be sensitive to playing by proxy, then don't wait on Empire to push a read on me. If you wait for Empire to substantiate the read, then I'm probably going to deal with Empire's read. If you push the read yourself, then I will deal with your read.

[Nachomamma8]

Metal Sonic/wgeurts/ZZZX/ABR

[Nachomamma8]

That was a town block btw, don't panic too much

[Nachomamma8]

The vengeful plan is dumb, don't actually think we are going to have too many town lynches.

Scum group looks like {Sotty, Hoopla, Kagami, Seraphim}

[Nachomamma8]

And yeah, I know I just said Seraphim looked town, but I'm reviewing that town read as we speak: his passion posting was good, but I don't think it's enough to make him town town

[Nachomamma8]

Grey has fallen on the right side of the tracks enough times where it makes him very strongly town if my current view of the game is even sort of correct. His posting so far has been very solid overall: there are certain pushes of his that I don't get that excited about but his heart is in the right place.

[Nachomamma8]

Eddie's tone is absolutely fantastic, in love with it. Consistent passion is great, can't really see him not being scum in most worlds and would probably put him in the town block if there was just a *tiny* bit more from him.

[Nachomamma8]

Seraphim/Zar is where the most doubt lies, by far. Empire wasn't that town when he posted and now he's gone forever, Seraphim has made a bunch of good votes early game and has :goodposted: in several places.

[Nachomamma8]

So, now that I've found a measure of confidence, I'm probably going to push strong for a lynch in {Kagami, Hoopla} but would be open to Sotty lynch as of this moment. I'm also sorry for all the spam, I have absolutely no idea how long I will be able to post and am also posting on mobile, so just posting complete thoughts as I'm forming them.

[Nachomamma8]

Why Kagami scum, Nacho?

Did actually think Silverwolf sucked, Kagami came in and played the whole "oh I'm ok with lynching Sotty if we do the vengeful plan even though I doubt anyone will follow it" angle, and also has been parking vote on GreyICE for reasons that didn't have the same passion your vote did.

[Nachomamma8]

And reasons that are also just garbage: "scum caught for the wrong reasons" and "why me = fry me" are GI staples, so criticizing him for them while pretending to have familiarity with him as a player is bleh.

[Nachomamma8]

Who's replacing out. Sotty is town and apart of our ideal town block (MS, Kagami, ZZZX, Zar, and Myself).

Why not wgeurts?

[Nachomamma8]

Sotty:

I haven't played my normal game because of the nature of the game/playerlist, not for any shitty "Team Mafia" reasons. In this type of game, it's important to either A) form a strong town block of people and push the rest of the game out, or B) find two or three scum early game, run them into the ground, then let paranoia run a bit more rampant once you've built a comfortable lead. I'm hoping to do a combination of both approaches, but needed time to form more solid reads and see where the lines in the sand started forming before I got involved myself.

[Nachomamma8]

First quote:

Kagami finds it a point that Grey is scum for criticizing Sotty's town block options when that was clearly a misunderstanding. There is absolutely no reason to misrep someone when the counter is so easy and obvious. She gives Hoopla a strong town read because Hoopla understands optimal strategy (null), which is a strong point towards them being partners. She tried to clear Hoopla from being a Sotty-partner because she voted Sotty, which is trash and terrible. The "pathetic and a liar" posting and the "legendary scum player" point is also really, really weak: telling someone they're playing poorly while you're pushing them as scum is part of the game, regardless of how much you respect them.

[Nachomamma8]

I've already talked about how much I hated the vengeful plan posts, I thought.

[Nachomamma8]

What is your personal read on wgeurts? Also talk to Mollie about ABR: she realizes how worn out he's been as scum lately and how dramatically this game contrasts from something like Curse of the Werewolves. He belongs in your town block.

[Nachomamma8]

And even if you don't want to lynch Kagami, why not Hoopla or Sotty?

[Nachomamma8]

Metal Sonic/wgeurts/ZZZX/ABR

ZZZX, what do you think of this town block?

[Nachomamma8]

Depends where Zar and Eddie end up, but I'm guessing your place.

[Nachomamma8]

Having wgeurts in the town block instead of zar is pretty contrarian! I would really appreciate it if you could give the distinction: why wgeurts? Why not zar? Why wgeurts over zar?

3 questions with detailed answers please!

Why not Zar? Zar hasn't done anything vaguely townish. He's made a weak push on me, then disappeared.

Meanwhile, Empire made a couple good posts but his main push was on town (you). It's also been proven in ASOIAF that scum-Empire can make a couple good posts and it's making consistent town posts that separates town game from scum game.

[Nachomamma8]

Wgeurts has had fantastic aggression this entire game, comes across as incredibly genuine in points like #438, #478, and has an impressive body of work in a game with a strong playerlist when he doesn't actually have any sort of scum game at all.

[Nachomamma8]

Sotty: When was there a point in the game where "lynch Sotty, follow the plan" actually seemed like a real thing that anyone was doing? If I was scum Grey pushing for your lynch, I don't think there would be any point where I would be afraid of your townflip. What do you think of my towngroup other than Metal Sonic? Why do you find Metal Sonic scummy (aka is it just incorrect reasoning? You don't get an extremely genuine vibe from his posts at all?).

[Nachomamma8]

He was talking, and then he wasn't talking.
Why do you think my read changed, Zar?

Basically, you responded this to Metal Sonic's question:

I want your thoughts on the following players:

Seraphim
GreyICE
Albert B. rampage
Any updates on your wgeurts read?


If members on your team (including ffery) could chip in that'll be great!

I think all of these people are town.
I think Hoopla is scum.

But before you said the following earlier:

Sorry for being contrary guys!

I still think wolf slot is a fine vote, although a bit less so.
Sotty, unfortunately, is forming up to be an ok vote at this stage.
Seraphim is a great vote.

I'd like to bring Sotty into the game at this point because I find I do best when I have a couple of sounding boards in thread to work with and now that Empire's gone, Sotty is probably the player I feel the most comfortable with, but I'd like her in the game and talking about things instead of letting Grey dictate interactions and her just sitting on the peripheral.

I also love Hoopla's entrance in a "good player" sort of way, although the Eddie vote doesn't seem like the strongest direction we can take at this stage.

and I don't really see what leads to the change, so it kinda looks to me like it's something that could be done to take off some heat off a partner without looking like you're defending them.

Seraphim had something like 20 posts in between those two posts of mine, and those 20 posts are entirely the reason I went from scum--->town on him in the first place. Hoopla I said I liked her entrance in a "good player" sort of way, meaning I liked the vibe she brought to the game and I liked her theory talk on the game. That doesn't mean I have a town read on her because those things aren't particularly difficult to fake as scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Hey Seraphim! I think you're the person in my scumpool that I'm wrong about!

What do you think of Kagami and Sotty votes?

[Nachomamma8]

Part of how uncomfortable I am has to do with how they defend one another: Sotty defends Kagami based on her observation on Grey backing off when vengeful plan is introduced and defends Hoopla for reasons that aren't exactly clear to me. Kagami defends Sotty for ??? reasons and Hoopla really hasn't done anything at all. Sotty/Kagami have teamed up at a couple of points against Grey, whereas I'm not really seeing anyone who has backed up Grey in the way that I would expect from a scum partner.

[Nachomamma8]

So, if Hoopla is scum, those two alternatives seem like pretty strong partner suggestions AND their flips will be more informative than Hoopla's AND I think there are stronger reasons to call those two scum whereas reasons to call Hoopla scum are pretty much just "useless, lurking".

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not reading Sotty as town, my sweet shining light in the darkness.

[Nachomamma8]

Why is my vote a bad one?

[Nachomamma8]

Sotty, why is Zar town? Also, I'm going to quote a Metal Sonic game on my next post: could you give it a quick glance-through and tell me why you think his content there is guided by stronger logic than his content here?

[Nachomamma8]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=60046

Here it is! I understand glancing through another game is -work- and not necessarily something you have a whole lot of time for, but I think it will help you understand where I'm coming from with my read on him, especially if you don't have experience with him before this game.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm happy to lynch her once she becomes the bigger wagon! Until then, I'm going to vote my stronger scum read.

[Nachomamma8]

The time for talking is over. It's time to lynch Kagami, boys and girls.

[Nachomamma8]

Zar: 648 is my explanation for the reads change on Seraphim, let me know if you need that explained more explicitly.

[Nachomamma8]

Metal Sonic:

Zar has been in the game for five days. During these five days of game time, he has made four posts. 5 days is more than enough time to get your bearing in the game and make an impression, but Zar hasn't... Why? How long will you give him a free pass based on Empire's play which, unfortunately, wasn't that fantastic? Not doing anything is different from not doing anything townish, you're correct, but Zar also hasn't done anything townish. This is problematic for me.

Empire's ISO has been regarded by many as "very town". Who are these people? The people who can read Empire best and are in this game (Tammy, Llamarble, Mina, Regfan, me) are either on his team, not involved with this game, or are on my team. My team is not reading him as town. This is something important to remember if my slot ever flips.

[Nachomamma8]

Empire's ISO this game is fine: the major problem is that his ISO only existed for two days. Empire can fake his town game for a couple days, a week, but every post he makes is a slog. Everything that he talks about this game is also easy, convenient to talk about as scum or bad: his townreads on ZZZX and ABR were town, and it's easy to talk about why town is town. His scumread on Silverwolf (the correct one) was never pursued. His two scumreads (you and wgeurts) were bad and ignored some of the signals that you two were giving off early game that screamed town. It's also a big red flag to me that Empire didn't take a bigger investment in this game before he left: he considers himself one of the best in the site at reading me. Why didn't he interact with me more before he left? Why didn't he post a big leaving post before he went? Why didn't he say anything?

[Nachomamma8]

Whoever taught you that aggression is typically a scum trait doesn't actually know how to play the game: aggression is a pretty strong town trait for inexperienced players especially. I hold Empire to a higher standard than I hold wgeurts to because Empire has more experience: I expect Empire and Sotty to see why you're town despite some of your post content being more whimsical than logical. I don't expect wgeurts to recognize the same things they should be seeing.

[Nachomamma8]

Grey bussing Kagami/Sotty/Hoopla is possible. If this is the case, then we should let him bus Kagami/Sotty/Hoopla and then lynch him. I can outline in greater detail later why I think that he's not bussing, but I see no need for that now when he shouldn't even be on the table.

[Nachomamma8]

I think Grey's biggest fault as town is that he gets distracted too easily by personalities he clashes with. He did make a mistake and town read Hoopla for a moment, but his town read of Hoopla didn't hold up very long. I have no problems with that at all because if a Hoopla wagon forms and we need Grey's vote, we will get it.

[Nachomamma8]

Kagami's list is weird if she's town. If she's scum and my picture of the game is correct, its strong.

SCUM
GreyICE - This is scum's likeliest mislynch for today. She will not move from her tunnelfest with GI, despite her being aware of tunnelfests being the only way that town could possibly lose a nightless game.

Hoopla - Scumbuddy. Kagami can have her scumbuddy in this slot because it's very unlikely she will have to vote her thanks to GreyICE tunnelfest. This is also the lurkiest of her scumbuddies, so Kagami can change her Hoopla read once Hoopla posts if it looks like she might be in danger.

MIDDLE GROUP
ZZZX - Town, should be universally recognized as town.
Metal Sonic - Town, should be universally recognized as town.
Wgeurts - Town, should be universally recognized as town.

If a good town block becomes universal, scum lose. Keeping doubt about this block keeps the doubt alive.

Nacho - I am diametrically opposed to all positions she has pushed this game. Having me as a null read AND making no effort to reach out to me is unacceptable.

Zar - This is her scumbuddy that will go the distance. Keeping him here avoids him getting sucked into the Kagami/GreyICE fight.

TOWN -
ABR - couldn't have the whole town block as null, could she? Important person that she needs to keep off her wagon.

Sotty - Scumbuddy most likely to be mislynched.

Seraphim
EddieFenix

^^Lowest producing members of town. She wants to keep them in her town block so that they are tied to her when she goes down.

[Nachomamma8]

If good players are not playing, they don't deserve a place in a town block. Ever. Good players need to affirm and reaffirm their place in the town pantheons, and the Zar/Empire slot have not done that.

Also an expert: fferyllt.

He could have called me out before he left: "hey Nacho, you aren't doing shit and I'm on my way out, what do you think about the game?". But he didn't.

[Nachomamma8]

i'm "meh" on kagami. some of her points against GreyICE are valid but some of her posts are bad beyond bad. no way i can put her in a town block. meh.

Kagami is the right play.

[Nachomamma8]

Sonic? Have I not campaigned properly to earn your vote on this wagon?

[Nachomamma8]

Do I need to deposit town credits? Do I need to perform a Sonic Summoning ritual? Please tell me what I need to do in order to guide this scumwagon to its satisfying conclusion.

[Nachomamma8]

I only disagree with you on the Kagami read, which is good since her scumflip is liable to break the game wide open.

[Nachomamma8]

I only disagree with you on the Kagami read, which is good since her scumflip is liable to break the game wide open.

You said you were coming over to Sotty.

I said I'd come over to Sotty if the wagon got larger than my Kagami wagon, which is an offer that still holds.

[Nachomamma8]

That's acceptable.

[Nachomamma8]

Aggression is not always a positive trait in Nightless formats: Kagami's opening strategy was most likely to antagonize Grey, which would make it easier to start a wagon against him (loud angry personalities often catch a lot of heat for being hard to get along with). It would have gone through and worked if the rest of her scumteam was actually active or wgeurts/ZZZX didn't start the wagon on her, but that's not how the cards fell this time.

[Nachomamma8]

Who does Kagami align herself with? Does she bus her deadweight partners and take away all chances of winning?

[Nachomamma8]

Kagami's strategy to align himself with Sotty, Seraphim and Eddie is a tactical blunder that is unconscionable for scum.

It wasn't clear that Sotty was going down when Kagami aligned herself with her initially. Aligning herself with the lurkers allows her to better control lurker town's vote, which is also crucial to winning this setup.

[Nachomamma8]

There's not really much she can do alone to turn the tide: scumteam all needs to play well or the game is lost. When her partners aren't putting
in work, what options does she have?

[Nachomamma8]

...

[Nachomamma8]

Grey, it's torture getting a wagon together. Why are you jumping off the wagon of someone you are pretty damn sure is scum when it has finally built to a pretty good size and the person on it whose alignment is most in question is me?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't give a fuck how many scum bodies I have to drop in thread before ABR/Titus stop suspecting me because I know that my picture of the game is right and I know it's only going to get easier from this point because 3/4 of the town block is moving together and scum don't have an easy alternative. But when you hop off a strong wagon onto a weaker one despite strong wagon composition and despite having scumreads on both wagons, you're splintering the vote for absolutely no reason.

[Nachomamma8]

WE HAVE THE SAME SCUMPOOL. I HAVE A WAGON WITH NOT ONE, NOT TWO, BUT THREE PLAYERS WHO ARE OBVIOUSLY TOWN ON THE WAGON WITH ME. WHY ARE YOU VOTING ANYWHERE ELSE BUT HERE?

[Nachomamma8]

Seraphim, yes.

[Nachomamma8]

You think Grey doesn't have a scum read on Kagami/doesn't think she should be lynched? Have you read his posts?

[Nachomamma8]

i'm observing...

i think my vote is doing more under someone else's reign.

Then why wait? Why not make him a doublevoter now?

[Nachomamma8]

So we lynch Kagami today, and if it flips town, Nacho tomorrow?

This plan seems fine if you actually vote Kagami.

[Nachomamma8]

I gave my team homework to read Hoopla and her most recent posting because Hoopla is not as sure of a scum read as Kagami is.

[Nachomamma8]

I haven't consulted anyone on my team about you. Llamarble said that he liked my push on you earlier, and also that he disliked 666 because of the "I challenge to X" bit and because scum are best at faking ire when pointing out problems with town posts, which has been pretty much the entirety of your game.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Kagami

I've been pretty strapped for time lately so I'm not going to answer old questions and things now but I'm aware of them.

[Nachomamma8]

No.

may i ask:

why not?

Can I ask

Why?

[Nachomamma8]

Put a vote down zzzy. Let's see where you stand

I shall follow you this once.
VOTE: Nacho
Idk if my mind will change later when i wake up but. my lynch list looks like:

Kagami/serph/nacho.

Most wanted >>> Less wanted

but any is fine so far I believe.

Kagami has a town read on Seraphim. Seraphim refused to compromise on Kagami yesterday. I'd like to lynch both of them. I don't understand why you're voting me when I'm your least preferred of the three options but also pushing them and probably not scum with them.

[Nachomamma8]

Hi, I have a laptop! I'm typing thoughts on the game as we speak: will be catching up with recent posts first, and then rereading second.

[Nachomamma8]

He really isn't fascinated by his scum block in 614 because despite he's said Seraphim is a good vote, but then called him town and said he was reviewing the thread after it, it looks more like keeping options open w/r/t Seraphim.

Seraphim seemed like a good scum pick to me for a majority of the game: the two major plays that Seraphim did that made me doubt that read a bit was the "fuck you" posts in responses to the push against him (here and here). It's been my experience in games that scum are less likely to respond to a mostly reasonable push on them with nothing but sheer aggression: the only purpose it actually accomplishes is pissing off the people pushing you even more (unless the people pushing you are really really reasonable), but when you believe your position is correct and righteous you tend you throw petty shit like "logic" out of the window. I also liked his suspicions: Hoopla seemed a strong suspicion, Sotty seemed a strong suspicion, Kagami seemed a strong suspicion. The fact he didn't vote for Kagami when the time was right lessens this towntell quite a bit, as does Hoopla's townflip.

He also thought the Hoopla inclusion there while not mentioning her other than to state she liked her entrance based on play style was kind of fake, specially since Hoopla then was one of his top 2 scumreads in 620. In the end he feels conflicted about him and would like me to engage more with him as he feels he may be able to read him correctly.

When I thought I had the game pretty definitively solved, Kagami/Hoopla/Sotty were my BIG THREE and I just sort of figured that lynching any of them was good and fine and great. Everytime Hoopla posted, she ended up throwing a bit of a wrench in the BIG THREE and it's not like she had a whole lot of content to interact with, which is why I didn't comment much on her.

I like Empire prodding at those two reads because they were the two reads that I probably fleshed out the least yesterday. I'd still like to see more posts coming out of your slot and more interactions with you since that's the only way in hell I'll be able to read you, but this post does make me feel better about your slot.

Kagami has a town read on Seraphim. Seraphim refused to compromise on Kagami yesterday. I'd like to lynch both of them. I don't understand why you're voting me when I'm your least preferred of the three options but also pushing them and probably not scum with them.

Why did you pick Kagami over Seraphim to lynch first?

Seraphim was the weakest of my scumreads thanks to the two things I outlined above.

@ABR and MS, got Mollie on my team reading Nacho as town. I'll see if I can get an update on that read from her. Oiiiiii. Been a long couple of days with college. Comin back a bit this weekend full force for sure.

I'm pretty sure she has more to say than that!

[Nachomamma8]

It's our scumread on Nacho that is strong.

Titus believes that he's aiming to be the most credible person rather than finding scum. The theory spec, the sudden unnatural confidence in Kagami scum, how he's not harassing anyone like his town self. I was also recently scum with Nacho. He always seems reasonable, and here, I think that I found the chink in the armor.

What theory spec have I provided to the game that makes it seem like I'm trying to be a credible person as opposed to finding scum? The theory speculation I remember providing is not really that excessive at all, I remember we should try to keep post counts low for the benefit in the game early, and I remember... maybe agreeing with some of Hoopla's comments? I'm a player that's very focused in on the dynamics of the game, so I comment on the dynamics of the game. This is about as scummy as Titus commenting on VCA early game: some of us scumhunt using unique or lesser used techniques, and bringing them up even though they are not straightforward/classic methods of scumhunting isn't scummy at all.

I'm not... harassing everyone? I'm not walling the shit out of anyone because this is the first time I've touched a laptop in about a month? or so. I've also been busy for life, pushing for a promotion, all that good shit. Despite that, I have scumhunted, I've read the game, I've commented on play, and I've harassed people where possible.

Let's compare that game to this one, shall we? Where did I demonstrate unreasonable confidence in anyone during Pick Your Poison? Contrast this with Curse of the Werewolves, where you played Nacho-town who had a pretty unnatural and complete turn around on mollie-slot (aka your scumbud) D2. That strong confidence I have when I believed I've sold the gamestate or found a portion of the game is how I push lynches, just like how you push lynches: do you think you got a wagon on me because your case was good, or because you found something fantastically special? No, you got a wagon on me because you have an unnatural confidence that certain people (SONIC) believe in.

Zar? Sotty? Seraphim? Kagami?

That's off the top of my head people that Nacho has pushed and prodded at.

That's why I'm more suspicious of Nacho than Kagami. It's always harder to cut against the grain.

When Kagami started out the game, she wasn't cutting against the grain. She was cutting against GreyICE.
It's also not always the proper move to cut against the grain: sometimes, the tide is leaning a certain way for a reason and bucking against it for absolutely no idea isn't exactly the best play.

I'm sure that Nacho is scum. He's participating elsewhere and avoiding this game, rationing his presence like if he said too much he might get suspected. That and the totally unnatural reversal on Kagami.

What reversal on Kagami are you talking about, exactly?

I'm not really able to post in every game every day, which means I end up focusing on some games some days and other games other games. I'm in a lot of games again. I always play on mobile. It's not exactly a cakewalk keeping up and posting in everything every time, and I'd rather be inconsistent and get in good posts occasionally as opposed to consistently posting underwhelming shit, but maybe you feel differently?

You, me, and zzzy are the most widely townread players in the game. The fact that all of us are voting for Nacho carries a lot of weight.

Sure does!
That does not make it correct!

[Nachomamma8]

And since VCA is actually god in this game, let's look at some votes!
{Metal Sonic, ABR, wgeurts, ZZZX} is our town block. Hoopla is flipped town. Votecounts are numbered to make commentary on them easier.

Spoiler: end of day votecounts

#1

Sotty7 (3) - GreyICE,

Metal Sonic

,

Albert B. Rampage

Metal Sonic

(3) - Zar, Seraphim,

wgeurts

Kagami (3) - Nachomamma8,

Hoopla

,

ZZZX

GreyICE (2) - Sotty7, EddieFenix

#2

Sotty7 (3) - Nachomamma8,

Albert B. Rampage,

GreyICE
EddieFenix (2) -

Hoopla

,

wgeurts

Seraphim (2) -

Metal Sonic

, Sotty7

#3

Sotty7 (3) - Nachomamma8,

Albert B. Rampage,

GreyICE
Seraphim (2) -

Metal Sonic,

Sotty7
Kagami (2) -

wgeurts,

ZZZX

GreyICE (2) - EddieFenix, Kagami

#4

Seraphim (4) -

Metal Sonic,

Sotty7,

Albert B. Rampage,

GreyICE
Kagami (3) -

wgeurts, ZZZX,

Nachomamma8
GreyICE (2) - EddieFenix, Kagami

#5

Seraphim (3) -

Metal Sonic,

Sotty7, GreyICE
Kagami (3) -

wgeurts, ZZZX,

Nachomamma8
GreyICE (2) - EddieFenix, Kagami

#6

Kagami (3) -

wgeurts, ZZZX,

Nachomamma8
GreyICE (2) - EddieFenix, Kagami
Sotty7 (2) -

Albert B. Rampage,

GreyICE
Hoopla (2) - Seraphim,

Metal Sonic

#7

Kagami (4) -

ZZZX,

Nachomamma8, GreyICE,

wgeurts

Hoopla

(4) - Seraphim,

Metal Sonic

, EddieFenix, Kagami

#8

Hoopla

(7) - Seraphim,

Metal Sonic,

EddieFenix, Kagami,

ZZZX, Albert B. Rampage,

GreyICE
Kagami (3) - Nachomamma8,

wgeurts, Hoopla

My personal conclusions:

1) The way the Hoopla wagon actually formed is very, very important to me, namely the transition between #6 and #7. The Kagami wagon had existed at three strong for quite a while with two townblock members on it: if scum wanted to make a play on it, they most certainly could have unless there were already two scum members on the wagon (a chance that drops to pretty much nothing if I'm confirmed as town, so keep this in mind if ABR charisma lynches me). Then Kagami hits 4, and immediately, Hoopla counter wagon forms as the GreyICE wagon magically decides to compromise on Hoopla. This creates the only wagon with three non townblock members on it, which hasn't existed at all up to this point, which is important because I don't think scum are going to block vote until they are forced to: it's stupid to operate as a perfect unit the entire game, but it's important to come together when you need it.

2) Despite Seraphim's lip service to Kagami and Sotty wagons (IIRC), he only ended up on Hoopla and Metal Sonic wagons.

3) Zar ending up in the "Not Voting" pile sucks and is really garbage, but it also seems a pretty horrible play if he's scum, considering the whole strength in numbers thing.

4) People 2 or more townblock members ended up voting before the lynch:
-Sotty
-Kagami
-Seraphim
-EddieFenix

This is coincidentally my top choice for a scumteam at the moment, except I'm gonna need a lot a lot more interaction with Zar and EddieFenix to confirm this is the case. I'm having some really serious difficulty seeing GreyICE as scum (and townread has been confirmed by Llamarble several times), and, if I'm lynched, I fully fully expect full control to be handed over to him: we are only likely to have room for one lone wolf if I'm dead today (which will invariably be ABR): if you are town and you don't listen to GreyICE if I am mislynched this game, you are the reason that the town lost.

[Nachomamma8]

Did you miss the change in atmosphere or something? It's going to take a hell of a lot more than shitty rhetoric to get me mislynched now.

[Nachomamma8]

Will you give up the reigns of the town when I'm flipped and you're wrong again?

[Nachomamma8]

The Empire Memorial Reads List, Part 1:

Kagami

: The biggest concern I have with Kagami is that all Kagami has done this game is tunnel GreyICE, which means, if GreyICE is town, Kagami's play has been worse than doing nothing: it's been actively and lazily attacking the shit out of town for literally no reason. If GreyICE is scum, then she's been railing valiantly against the most difficult to lynch scum player in the game instead of picking off his partners and his voice. I believe that Kagami, as a player, is smart and not emotional and is able to look at big picture play. She hasn't done that at all with her relentless push on GreyICE.

I also have a lot of difficulty believing her reads are actually real: she forms the GreyICE/Hoopla scum duo in 349 and never changes or doubts it once for literally the entire game. I believe it's impossible to read the game and have a scum group that never changes ever, especially for a player that isn't absolute shit. The reasons for her townreads in 698 were "these players showed resistance against GreyICE. these players are town.", which, again, is absolutely 100% horseshit because only bad players approach a game that shallowly.

In addition, there's also the whole fact that she didn't think to vote until 412 which makes no kind of sense whatsoever, considering the confidence level she was claiming on GreyICE much, much earlier.

Spoiler: Specific Rebuttals to Points

He complains that sotty is willing to town block with players who haven't even posted against, pointing to a list that is probably just people sotty likes/has played with before.

GreyICE has no motive to make this point as scum, considering it's a point that's easily rebutted by Sotty.

sotty is apparently pathetic and the worst liar ever. And is a legendary scum player in the next post.

Attacking a player with rhetoric isn't exactly uncommon in mafia.

There are other little things too. I don't believe town greyICE would ever utter "scum caught for the wrong reasons." He's just too smart to believe that. 277 is another ridiculous thing I don't think town-GI would say. "One of my townreads is scum" reads as "I'll have to 180 on one of my townreads once my scumreads are all dead."

"Scum caught for the wrong reasons" - fairly common statement, probably uttered by GreyICE in a good portion of his games if Kagami ever decided to glance through them, which she probably didn't. And, considering this was refuted from everyone who actually knows GreyICE, it also seems pretty strange that Kagami never looked at GI to see if maybe her perception of him as a player was wrong, but nope, just kept tunneling.

The comment on the second quote: it seems reasonable for GI to feel uncomfortable with the speed wagons are building, thanks to dynamics of the game.

Anyway, I challenge anyone to read greyICE's iso and find a post that both has content and is not contradicted by another of his posts.

This "challenge" is bullshit because it's incredibly easy to make an ISO that is consistent: being consistent is not being town. As for accusing or even implying GreyICE of not producing content when he's been one of the main drivers of the game... no thank you!

Your townreads are people who call you town. Your scumreads are people who question your alignment.

This seems like an odd accusation from someone whose townreads are "people that showed resistance to GI townread": it also sounds like bullshit (I didn't explicitly townread GI until very very late, don't think MS did but I might be wrong, wgeurts, ABR, Hoopla, nope).

Sotty:

Sotty shares a bit of the Kagami problem is that she tunnels far too hard on Seraphim for the majority of the game and doesn't really do much else. My biggest problem is how undeveloped her reads are outside of Seraphim: yes, it's great she's voting Seraphim and all, but what about everyone else...?

Her townread on Hoopla (which, considering she was the only person in thread with an explicit and consistent townread on Hoopla, should have been a priority to explain), consists of "I don't want to lynch Hoopla Day 1 unless she has a major scumslip" and "I have a hard time faking seeing Hoopla fake this as scum". The way she sort of passively avoided the wagon makes sense if she had a scumread/undecided view on the slot, but a good town read getting mislynched should have pushed Sotty to explain a lot more, just letting the wagon happen is a very strong scum signal.

She's also not willing to scumread that many players: yesterday, she had a townread on ZZZX, wgeurts, ABR, Zar, Hoopla. If you add her to that townblock, you get {Kagami, Seraphim, Eddie, Nacho, GreyICE, Metal Sonic}. She said the only thing she had against Kagami was her lurking, but she made a few points and then disappeared. She pushed against Serpahim. She took light potshots against Metal Sonic. She soft-pushed me a couple of times to say I never was intense as I usually was, but never really advanced past that.

Her interactions with me are also seriously lacking: Sotty is one of those players I town block well with because she's very aggressive with me when I'm being inconsistent and she isn't afraid to push on me or call out my reads when she believes they're bad. I have trouble believing Sotty actually let me be as passive and laid-back as I have been this game (until late yesterday): she just gave me a free pass when she is used to a much more in your face Nacho, and I don't think she'd do that as town. I also don't think she'd let me think she was scum for literally an entire day phase without being more aggressive about erasing that read on her (not even a "I'm town, I pinky promise???), but that's a lesser point than everything else.

Her thought processes are also basically just lacking in depth: town-Sotty isn't afraid to pursue a variety of different avenues, she has small theories here and there, her reads are fluid as hell because she's constantly thinking about them, and even though I'm willing to allow a little bit dialed back because working in the coal mines is seriously tiring business, but this Sotty feels like a different person completely from normal town game.

Seraphim:

The scummiest part of Seraphim is how he goes from having good reads to having shit reads over pretty arbitrary reasons.

He starts out scumreading Silverwolf and Eddie: Silverwolf read dies because Kagami replaces in, he gains a Sotty scumread. Then, his Sotty scumread dies because Kagami posts a "convincing case" on GreyICE (which ends up in him cleanly unvoting, which doesn't make sense because 1) if GreyICE case was confusing, why the hell didn't he just sheep it? It was early game enough, and 2) Kagami's case for Sotty being town was "I've seen mislynched town do worse", which is actually one of the least convincing town cases in my life, so don't see how it would work unless Seraphim actually bought into the GreyICE = scum case, which leads back to 1), and his Hoopla read comes out of the blue, seems based on "lurking" and nothing else, and sticks with him literally the entire game. He never mentions Eddie again, despite the early scumread.

Other questionable moments:

-Votes Sotty because he thinks one of GreyICE/Kagami/Sotty is scum. Believes Sotty-scum implicates Kagami-scum but Kagami-scum doesn't implicate Sotty-scum. He believes this because Sotty is distancing from Kagami's defense (which implies scum together), and because he doesn't see Kagami doing this unless Sotty and Kagami were scum together or Kagami was town (Kagami doesn't white knight Sotty here... why?),

-All of #966, where Seraphim says he's playing for survival because "teams" and his philosophy background, which hopefully doesn't need any sort of commentary at all.

EddieFenix

EddieFenix... on first pass, seems a hell of a lot like Kagami 2.0, with much weaker logic and a hell of a lot more sass.

Things I like:
-General confidence and shittalking
-Bulba Capcom Crossover Theory (Where did this go? Why didn't you ever push me more?)
-Bulba and him being in sync posts

What I don't like is, again, the sitting on GreyICE all day and not really pursuing any alternatives which could possibly be scum. And his case on GreyICE is not so great, it's actually really really horrible. All he does is say that GreyICE's Sotty case is horrible salesmanship, and then absolutely nothing at all until the Hoopla/GreyICE team theory and #602, which is where the bullshit comes to a head.

Grey's first point is that Eddie didn't actually interact with his townreads in any meaningful manner, which is suspicious because usually people interact with other people before they're worshipping them as town as shit.

Eddie's rebuttal is that it's fucking astonishing GreyICE believes that Eddie's team isn't in his ear, which actually isn't a rebuttal at all and instead is a really cool "oh team mafia is my excuse!!!" bit like Seraphim's #966 was.

Eddie's attack on Grey is the exact same as Sotty's was waaaay back on Page 1 (namely, that he should have voted Hoopla before Sotty), which is an old accusation that was already addressed in 119.

Then he has an accusation that Grey called Sotty's scumgame "legendary" in response to a reference to a game where Sotty was town, so yeah that makes no fucking sense.

Then he accuses of Grey misrepping that he and Sotty have played multiple games together, even though I'm pretty sure Sotty didn't link any other games.

And then calls him scum because he didn't rip apart ZZZX's PBPA for reasons that I don't really understand at all.

And that's it.
That's that entire case from that big #602 post, which is probably the worst case that I've read since I started reading this game. This makes sense from scum who is pushing a main scumread based on absolutely nothing until he actually tries to sit down and bullshit a case, but it doesn't make sense from town who is active and discussing his scumread with partners who are in his ear. It's also pretty great that this is the only piece of actual motivation or reasoning he even attempts to give: the rest of his reads is just straight rhetoric (see: Kagami read).

It's also a pretty strong tell that all mollie had to say is "Nacho's town" in our game: I've never really known her to read me without interacting with me and not being interested in interacting with me in game: maybe she can say that she doesn't want to step on Eddie's toes, but even mollie whose feeling out boundaries doesn't leave me cold and alone with that non-interaction.

I'm posting these now so I can take a break without being afraid of losing posts. I'm sorry for going overboard in Kagami read, just got excited I had a laptop again and had a bunch of overambitious ideas I had to curb so people actually read my shit.

[Nachomamma8]

You tunneled our scumbuddy for actual reasons. You pushed on scum who weren't us.
These things are pretty fucking important.

[Nachomamma8]

I just feel like people are townreading GI for anger and aggression, and then rationalizing that.

Maybe! I think you're scumreading GreyICE because magic which is even worse!

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho: singer wanted me to ask you who do you think compromised from the GI wagon and why you think they did so on Hoopla instead of Kagami?

Eddie/Kagami both came over from the GI wagon on Hoopla instead of Kagami to save Kagami. They both came over at pretty much the same time, and they both used ABR asking them over to the wagon as an excuse to join it.

[Nachomamma8]

Scum wouldn't make a bad push that could be easily rebutted.

No, I didn't use it to call Grey town. I said there's no reason to make a push like that unless you're genuinely misunderstanding something because that really isn't difficult to correct.

Rubbish rhetoric shouldn't be scrutinized.

Calling Sotty trash was clearly rhetoric he was using to push her lynch/his opinion of her play in this game. It has nothing to do with his opinion on Sotty's scum play back in the day, which was legendary. Taking these two instances and calling them a contradiction and pushing it as such is stupid.

It's totally ok that GI was positioning to scumread one of his townblockerinos because wagons were going fast (I don't think they were at that time)?

Your point here was fine.

A "challenge" to find a single consistent point in someone's iso is rubbish because making a consistent iso is easy.

Is not a town tell, correct.

[Nachomamma8]

Most of our reasons voiced in thread weren't actually that compelling to me, and the one that was was largely dismissed.

They were compelling to me! And I don't remember reading any reasons that were complete and utter garbage, which seems to be what your reasons here are :/

Like, you're a good, logical player. I expect you to have good logical reasons to do things, ESPECIALLY if you're being extremely aggressive and confident about them, but here your reasons are bad enough where I'd probably attack any player peddling shit like that.

I don't believe you wouldn't look elsewhere for scum. I don't believe you would still be confident in the case you dropped. I don't believe you clear a third of the game because "you took my side day 1!".

[Nachomamma8]

You're a legendary scum player. This means you were a great scum player in the past.
Your play this game is terrible. This means your play in this game has obvious holes.

These two statements aren't mutually exclusive.

[Nachomamma8]

Can you not do something other than argue about GreyICE?

[Nachomamma8]

I agree we should do vengeful from this point forward, at least.

[Nachomamma8]

What is your read on me?

[Nachomamma8]

I thought so.
Can you sell me a little harder on your GreyICE read? Do you still have the same feelings about all of your points on him?
How did your read progress as the game progressed? Did I read you right when it seemed like you just immediately thought he was scum by his Sotty push and never faltered from that point on?

[Nachomamma8]

ok

[Nachomamma8]

I agree with the general idea of the plan.

Unanimous consensus must be reached before we can proceed. So if ABR agrees we can set up the policy

You two are a terrible priviledged minority.

[Nachomamma8]

sorry i got really drunk this weekend and spent all of my mafia time in a compromised state
i'm gonna catch up on things right quick, try to explain two more reads or so, and then finish a little every day

[Nachomamma8]

Sotty I gave you metal sonic meta to look at :/

[Nachomamma8]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=60046

Here it is! I understand glancing through another game is -work- and not necessarily something you have a whole lot of time for, but I think it will help you understand where I'm coming from with my read on him, especially if you don't have experience with him before this game.

[Nachomamma8]

I didn't like several minor points on GI initially, one of the biggest points being the town-blocking business.

So, I understand this. I acknowledge that if I were scum in Grey's position, I would form a town block with my most competent scumbud and the first two townies to be drawn to the light. My problem with this point against Grey is I actually don't think this is how he's played. He's ended up pushing a lot of people, and the townblock he's formed (namely the townblock around ABR) is a strong one that no one's actually criticized: it could be because his scumbuddy is playing fucking amazingly, but I seriously seriously doubt that's the case. I also don't understand why you haven't been more aggressive with pushing proper theory if you've quickly identified that it's optimal and strongly feel that it's optimal.

In addition to wqierts, ABR, nacho, ZZZX for town, there was my wagon, which seemed like a stealthy way of adding Hoopla to the list. A few posts later he explicitly adds hoopla, for evidently a completely different reason.

Why is this scummy with Hoopla-town in mind?
I also sympathize with Grey's reaction to Hoopla in general: I actually really liked how her opening to the game felt, even though it was something she rationally could effortlessly fake as scum and she really didn't have any other content to add credence to that feeling.

I asked him about the hoopla thing later. He gives a rubbish response, when there were multiple reasonable responses he could have given, and ultimately ditched the townread before the day is over. So yeah, I found that pretty damning.

You're referring to #303, correct? I think it's perfectly reasonable for GI to townread Hoopla for opening the game in a way that's very disadvantageous for scum-her. Scum will not win in this setup playing support. One of the stronger members of the scumteam playing support is a really really really terrible idea.

Seraphim is the one who intercepts, asks for why, and I oblige. This is where scum-seraphim votes kagami; it's a perfect alternative wagon for divided votes that ensures town lynches stay in the lead. I don't think I had votes at the time, but had plenty of negative sentiment, which is the juciest jump of all. He doesn't, and I see no scum motivation to change direction on GI regardless of grey's alignment. (I didn't really think of it in such depth initially, but it's worth being out there)

This is referring to... #393, right? Seraphim backing out of you/GreyICE allowed him to make probably the second easiest vote possible. It allowed him not to have to interact with GreyICE. It allowed him to avoid antagonizing GreyICE. Yes, he didn't jump on you, but there is distinct scum motivation in staying out of the way.

The tl;dr is that yes, it's accurate to say that my greyICE read didn't really evolve, but was there something that you think should have changed it? I call him out for his rubbish, and he mostly ignores it or says that it's terrible. I don't understand why I should be expected to change my mind here. Sure, I can think of semi-viable scumsets that doesn't include GI, but those all seem very improbable.

I'm not trying to change your mind.
If you are town, GreyICE is probably scum.

What I'm trying to do is understand your read better and picture a world where you aren't scum because it is absolutely 100% crucial I get that shit cemented before I go down and I don't want to steer town completely wrong when I die because that would be fucking garbage. In order for me to believe that, the first thing I need to believe is GreyICE-scum. I don't think he's playing in the way he needs to if he's scum. I do think his play this game is good regardless of alignment, but he hasn't approached it the way he has if he's scum. That's why I don't really agree with your theory point on him.

I don't see town in Sotty, Seraphim, Eddie. Sotty is still not reaching out to me in this environment when I'm drowning and reaching out to her, and I hate that shit. You're not a player who needs sounding boards to work off of. I understand that. I need sounding boards and Sotty does to, I'm reaching out to her, that's horseshit.

I don't see scum in ZZZX, ABR, wgeurts, Metal Sonic. If ABR is scum this game, he will be playing a bananas scumgame and overcoming a demoralizing past of scumgames of being edged out by townblocks, and he is playing one of the best if not THE best scumgame I've ever seen. Metal Sonic, wgeurts, ZZZX: I can see their heart, I can see their passion. I understand their play. I love their play. And I trust myself enough that those reads are correct: if you want to shake that out, you need something strong and I haven't seen something strong on them from anyone.

Your point about being inconsistent is weak to me because it's a shitty scumtell on GreyICE as a player. GreyICE pushes people to see how they react. Are the pushes bullshit? Fuck yeah they are. Do they have obvious town motivation behind them? Yep. I attacked his pressure early game because I didn't think he had any fantastic points and I didn't want Sotty to get overwhelmed. Then GreyICE put in work, Sotty didn't. I feel you're ignoring that and instead picking him apart with points that are factually true but don't actually get into motivation, and you're a good enough player to understand that motivation is king

Your point about Grey's treatment of Hoopla is your best one, but it doesn't resonate with me. You criticize the approach for being inconsistent and weird: I think it's natural to have a weird reaction to Hoopla because her play was strange. She's a very strong player. She did add to a town win when she played. She did make the game state better with the few posts she made. But she didn't put in work and she didn't explain why she wasn't putting work and she only put a tiny tiny bit of heart in the game when other people are putting a metric fuck ton of heart in the game, and that's frustrating as hell. It's not difficult at all for me to see town motivation in Grey's treatment of Hoopla when I've had the same exact reaction, step by step.

I promise you, if you are town, that I'm making every effort to see you as so, but it just doesn't add up.

[Nachomamma8]

wgeurts, I would be happy as shit if you unvoted.
I'm OK with being lynched, I need time to get shit done in this game. Llamarble died in his own game, and he's the best town player on the site. Not giving him the time he needs to do his thing is a really dumb mistake.

[Nachomamma8]

Not a fan of Nacho's VCA since we only have one confirmed alignment so far and it was the person wagoned. The rest is just his reasoning hiding behind some kind of theroy to give it more weight.

What gives the VCA any sort of weight is the reads that I'm reasonably confident about. You don't disagree with ABR, wgeurts, ZZZX reads: put those reads in the VCA and tell me what you think is happening.

I do very much like nacho's Seraphirm and Eddie paragraphs though. This is more of what I want to see makes me hesitant to jump on your wagon.

What's wrong with my Kagami read?
I am trying my best, for the record. I haven't been consistent before because ~busy~ and mobile is literally the worst combination I have ever experienced in my entire life.

[Nachomamma8]

And I like the guy. He's one of my favorite players. Yesterday, I learned that he was a young black kid, and that adds to his charm. Unfortunately, he also drew scum here.

<3
you're the best abr
you'll do fine in leading town after i'm gone, just know i'm putting everything i got into this game so that the end result will be the best i can produce

[Nachomamma8]

No. My nacho doesn't come from mostly from the town read of Seraphim. It has to do more with the two-fold interaction between Seraphim and Nacho (from his side, the reason to town-read him feels lazy) and the way Nacho has been soft-handling my slot; I would have expected him to reach out to engage Empire more (regarding that read in specific) without being called out and I feel like the read he’s given me is conveniently murky.

My townread of Seraphim was shitty, yeah. I kinda fall easy for needless aggression even though I shouldn't. He's still the scumread that, for me, has the weakest reasons for being scum because I'm so much more familiar with the other three players (not Eddie specifically, but newfound confidence that I'll talk about comes from mollie's interactions with me).

I don't think you see my perspective re: my interactions with your slot. You just replaced out of a game because you didn't want to play delivery boy. I'm a player who absolutely loves Empire, needs to interact with him all the time in order to form a good read there, but didn't get that chance. I wanted to give you space to get into the game and get some reads down before going all EMPIRE EMPIRE EMPIRE because I didn't want to be unfair to you as a player.

I think you're town now. Your perspective on the game makes a ton a ton of sense, town tokens help, and I loved singer's recent reachout to mollie over me (it made me feel special!). I don't think it was unreasonable to have a murky read on you when you really weren't doing anything: Empire's opening, while good, wasn't a "Empire is confirmed town beyond town" read for me and with him and Tammy I've learned it's really really important for me to get to that point before townreading and not worrying about them anymore. I think your read on me is fine, which means a lot: you're scumreading me for the weakest part of my play which is absolutely reasonable.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho, had to say your mother's a hamster from Espeonage.

ilu2bb

[Nachomamma8]

ABR, if Nacho flips town what will you then do?

I think that flipping GreyICE would be a great idea.

You don't think that if I'm town, my reads are not worth listening to?
You don't think Nacho/Llamarble/Ffery/Thor know shit about this game?
If I flip town, you treat my words like the fucking gospel because I've been putting work into this game. I'm not fucking around, I'm not playing poorly, I'm not getting lynched because I'm playing a bad game as town. Don't let me die and then ignore what I've put in this game: don't you fucking dare make all of this useless.

[Nachomamma8]

The most informative lynches are GreyICE and Nacho (Two of my town reads :\), GreyICE reveals the most if mafia however if she flips town we gain little to nothing except an even more suspicious looking kagami.

When I flip town, it will tell you that twice Kagami served as a counterwagon to town and twice she didn't get lynched. When I flip town, there is also a very clear picture of the game that I'm making painfully clear in thread right now.

Lynching GreyICE for information ignores pretty much all the information you gain from mislynching me, which would also be one of those things that would make me frustrated and angry and sad, so let's not do that.

[Nachomamma8]

what I do agree with him is that Kagami’s #341 and #349 pushing Sotty points away from them being partners, which therefore enforces the stronger scum read on Kagami.

Kagami herself said that she didn't expect that plan to actually go through.
I don't think this point is very good at all.

As far as the Eddie read goes, it’s a weaker read but the conviction for his pushes seems genuine even if the logic is flawed?

My scumread there became much much much much stronger when mollie replaced into the game. She wouldn't let me drown if she was townreading me, she would be yelling at Eddie and making sure her words actually got into the thread as opposed to just "oh nacho's town" and then zero followup, which is reasoning I think singer understands and trusts.

[Nachomamma8]

I felt his scum hunting way too weak.

and there is no sacrifice because it ends up with nothing happening with "oh god i was wrong" kind of calling once its done and its gone.

sadly thats how it works out most of the time when scum do it.

I honestly felt his play was subpar. I need to re-read him...

Saying my scumhunting is weak when you haven't made an attempt to analyze it and rip it apart is really really a dumb thing to say.
Saying there's no sacrifice because I'm not making contingency plans if wrong: why do you think that I'm interacting with Kagami as much as I have? Why do you think I'm trying to form a gameplan after my death? Because I'm a crazy dude who's just typing at his keyboard because "wheee!"??

[Nachomamma8]

Your wagon isn't a counterwagon to Kagami. That doesn't make sense.

Hoopla (7) - Seraphim, Metal Sonic, EddieFenix, Kagami, ZZZX, Albert B. Rampage, GreyICE
Kagami (3) - Nachomamma8, wgeurts, Hoopla

wgeurts was voting Kagami at the time we lynched Hoopla, now he's voting you. Seraphim had been pushing for Hoopla for as long as you have been pushing for Kagami. Eddie isn't voting you.

Saying that your wagon is a Kagami counterwagon, and comparing it to D1 at deadline is nonsense.

It's the only other wagon that exists to mine.
That is my definition of a counterwagon.

[Nachomamma8]

Before I go, I need everyone to agree that they will follow my reads that when I'm gone. It is optimal town strategy to play popcorn lynching in this situation (two mislynches in a row in an 8:4 nightless) because our voting to power is going to go to shit when I'm gone. The lynches I want are:

Kagami --> EddieFenix --> Sotty --> Seraphim

I understand the Eddie over Sotty case is surprising and weird to most, but I'm scumreading mollie at the moment and that read takes priority over pretty much anything else (Kagami goes first because her scumflip is literally the best thing this game can get).

The townies in this game are:

ABR
ZZZX
Metal Sonic
wgeurts

---gap---

Zar
GreyICE

From this point on, you operate as a group. The best thing I can do for you is be the cement Hoopla talked about yesterday: if you have any doubts, any questions about that group, let me know and I'll get to them as soon as possible. I will not focus on defending myself as much anymore because I do believe my death can be a really good thing for town: I'm going down, but I'm going to make sure the scumteam is absolutely fucked when that hammer vote on me.

I know I'm a dramatic person. I'm sorry, I have a lot of fun when I'm playing mafia. That doesn't mean I'm being emotional about this. That doesn't mean that I'm wrong about optimal play here. Don't go "oh, nacho freaked out/nacho's a weirdo/nacho's dumb/nacho played poorly" because that's not the truth in any world. I don't get this way often about games, but this game turned out to be absolutely perfect for the things that I'm good at doing, and I'm putting in the work, I'm putting in the time, I'm doing my part for this town win.

[Nachomamma8]

ABR: I was frustrated with you earlier because I didn't understand your approach, but I understand it now. You are who brought this town together. You are the guiding hand, and you are the voice. Please, trust me in this moment and carry out my lynches when I'm gone: your goal is to keep the town together, and, if the worst happens and Kagami flips town, it is your job and your job alone to tear down the town block and form a new one. If Kagami is town, please place faith in her like you've placed faith in me. I love the way you've brought this town together with nothing but unfiltered passion: don't let go of that after I flip town.

Metal Sonic: Don't be afraid to have a little faith in other people. The missteps you are making are because you're taking too much on your back all on once: you have made strong pushes, you have played well. But your biggest mistake has been shutting people out. Stop shutting people out. If you disagree with the game plan, bring BBMolla into the conversation, tell him Nacho sent you: he's a strong player who is underestimated very very easily because he's inconsistent and distracted by shinies just a *little* too easily. He will understand exactly what I'm doing here.

ZZZX: Don't let up. You're falling behind, you're not putting the heart you were when this game first started. Yeah, the game lags sometimes and lynches don't happen instantly, but that doesn't mean nothing is happening and putting that heart and impatience into looking over the game more and putting your thoughts in the thread is going to help people see how town you are a lot a lot a lot. You also have a problem of shutting people out like Metal Sonic: don't do that. You know how shitty it feels when people call you a bad player and when people don't give you a chance to contribute, so don't make the same mistake they do.

Wgeurts: Have faith in me! Your play this game is great, your move onto me despite not scumreading me was enough to demonstrate exactly what ABR was doing and exactly what this game needed, and thank you for that. I don't think Sotty is town. I don't think Zar is scum. Make sure to look over why I think the things I do before I die so you can ask me questions if you need them. Also, I'm a guy.

GreyICE: I'm glad to play with you again, you're a fucking great player and I forgot actually how much I enjoyed playing with you when you're on your game. Don't get distracted by dumb shit, and please please please please please use my flip to its highest potential. I know you don't understand some of my play but you understand enough and you were my rock this game, so thank you for that. I'd love to play scum against you sometime in the future: I'm actually pretty proud of my improvements there and am pretty confident I'd steamroll the hell out of you

Zar: I didn't realize how strong you actually were as a player until your recent posts, please post more. Your logic is on point, your reasons for reading people make perfect fucking sense, and I'm glad I got to gain newfound respect for you as a player. I don't actually have anything except "be louder, be more aggressive" and apologies for not reaching out sooner: I honestly had no idea how to react to the swap because it was quiet and weird and I didn't really understand reasons for why, but I also don't understand the dynamic between you-Empire-Tammy, and I can see you being frustrated with not being seen because you are a very strong player.

Kagami: If you are town, you are the only chance town has of winning. If you are town, I have failed, and you are going to die. Come to terms with that fact. Prepare for death. Be aggressive, be open about your thoughts, be loud. There's no reason to hide those pocket scumreads because you absolutely 100% are going to die and there's literally nothing you can do in order to prevent that death. What you CAN do now is set the stage for a town win after you're gone: be the cement I'm trying to be now.

[Nachomamma8]

That's a competing wagon, not a counterwagon.

Look,you can't have all four players you think are town voting you, and then sincerely believe that none of the scum are willing to join the four town to vote you out. That's the most counterintuitive thinking you can possibly hatch up. More likely, is that you're scum, and scum don't want to bus you. They're hoping your wagon will go away and they can mislynch Kagami. I don't believe for a second that you sincerely think any of this is true.

I believe that scum want to use my town flip to their benefit. I think that scum are going to use my town flip to rip the town block apart: that's what Kagami's recent posts imply. I think Eddie/Seraphim are planning to put the last couple of votes on me due to Seraphim's stated scumread and Eddie's bullshit "ohhh i have just the strangest weird feeling that Nacho is scum and mollie is wrong about them", but I think Kagami's going to lead a charge on ZZZX while she's going down while Sotty pegs at Metal Sonic. They can't do that as effectively if they mislynch me.

[Nachomamma8]

You have me, sonic, wgeurts and zzzy up there as town to try to flatter us into unvoting you. You have a twisted mind. You will do anything to win. Hopefully the town that remain off your wagon can come out of lurking and place a vote to end your struggle.

I understand why I need to die: your feeling is absolutely correct. If I were scum, I would try to play as closely to this as possible: I would push the most alienated town and, if I got pressure, I'd make a gigantic post to show that I'm ~super~ invested in the game and I'd compliment townies as much as humanly possible to make myself more likeable and thus make myself harder to lynch. But that's why my lynch is important: when I flip green, you see my faith in all of you is just exactly as I've typed it. I want you to use my appreciation of you as a player and the good parts of what I've seen in all of your games and I want you to use it to crush the everloving shit out of the scumteam.,

I understand that most people will not understand what I'm doing: I'm doing exactly what Hoopla did for me, except I'm trying to make a bigger splash when I'm doing it. I can't do this in every game because I don't feel this way about 99% of games, but when this moment happens, it's EXACTLY what I live for. And it's why I wanted Team Mafia to come back because people are putting their hearts into this thing and it's what makes me feel close to scummers despite not getting the chance to meet them or really interact with them outside of a game context.

[Nachomamma8]

Me taking myself out of the game shows that I'm not bullshitting about the faith I have in you guys. It removes a pretty significant worry (I'm manipulating people), and I think getting that worry out of the way and letting people take these words like what they are will do fantastic things for the gamestate.

I am very very very confident in the scumteam. But I'm not a crazy person, I realize that might not be the case. But this town is a very, very strong town. People directly in the center have heart, they have aggressiveness, they have desire to win. The people outside the scumteam have great minds AND they are invested in the game AND they have so so many more people behind them, I ~know~ deep in my heart that town wants it more, and thus town's going to win. Every single person on that list has personally reached out to me in a way that I recognized and appreciated. I am fairly confident that list contains a lot of town, and those town are the town that are going to lead us to victory.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho, she's not giving me the exacts because it's meta she says she has on you that she won't drop. I'll trust her on this.

That's really difficult for me to believe!

Mollie reads me by interacting with me. She knows this and has told me as much, I know this as a result. Why then, do you think she would make no effort at all in interacting with me? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Mollie also is as proud of her ability to read me as I am of my ability to read her. When she has a read on me, everyone knows it. If she was reading me as town, she wouldn't let me die. She especially especially wouldn't let me die without any effort to solidify her read on me whatsoever.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm going to look at Eddie again. Point me to the posts of why he's scum.

My strongest reason for Eddie scum is mollie's interactions with me. When mollie is town, she interacts with me a lot, and it comes very very easily to her. When she interacts with me as scum, she has to force herself to do it which means it happens less often and less organically. I can't see her leaving Eddie with a "Nacho is town for meta reasons I don't want to talk about" and nothing more: I would expect her to ask him to relay messages for her or pick out specific things in my play or talk about my reads. If she felt uncomfortable with doing that because she didn't want to make Eddie feel like a delivery boy, she would tell him as much and she would make sure I knew why she wasn't interacting with me as much as she usually was.

The reasons for Eddie scum I've outlined in my big post, I can pull up the specific section if you want me to.

[Nachomamma8]

OK Nacho, I'll vote Eddie with you if you do most of the heavy lifting, and we can get one of Sonic and zzzy on board.

Okay!

Vote: EddieFenix

[Nachomamma8]

Bro if you're gonna drop nacho I'm going on GreyICE

I'm scumreading Mollie. If you don't trust me enough in order to follow that read, I would rather you just vote me.

[Nachomamma8]

" sangres in perpetual mylo is what you should be doing right now." <<< special message from GIF to nacho. I dont even get what it means.

also it seems nacho is being town read in my team.

About eddie... this was... fast

I might move my vote to eddie later after i read. but right now thing are going waaay too fast.

The problem is, nachos is barely reaching the sangres level in perpetual mylo. In there sangres = sheep to win magnet. In here nacho was so poorly that a wagon formed in him. Can a wagon even form on godnacho? Does town nacho get mislynched before? I have never seen

wait
wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait

[Nachomamma8]

hey metal sonic
if i prove i activated sangres in perpetual mylo again, will you finally sheep me again and make my dreams come true once more?

[Nachomamma8]

i'm not gonna call llamarble's help for this one, i'd rather he focus on games that need it
i'm ok here.

[Nachomamma8]

there is only a limited amount of ffery help. she has to handle her large theme before she expires.

UNLESS we actually delay your lynch by a day, then ffery can release her burden and come here full time, but she is still limited by messages by proxy.

so we can lynch greyice today and tomorrow we get a really bad mini sangres!

no
you can lynch me
or you can lynch eddie

[Nachomamma8]

what part of "nacho is scumreading mollie" don't you understand?

[Nachomamma8]

she's on a team
she's interacting with me
i'm reading her

[Nachomamma8]

she's on a team
she's interacting with me
i'm reading her

focus metal sonic

[Nachomamma8]

What just happened in the last few pages?

Are you confused?

[Nachomamma8]

she's on a team
she's interacting with me
i'm reading her

i dont understand how that is even possible... she isn't in the game.

the right thing to say was "i am scumreading eddie" not "mollie" ??

i'm interacting with her
i can read her

[Nachomamma8]

she's on a team
she's interacting with me
i'm reading her

i dont understand how that is even possible... she isn't in the game.

the right thing to say was "i am scumreading eddie" not "mollie" ??

i'm interacting with her
i can read her

she didnt post anything!!!!! ?_?

unless u mean in the theme game! I can read her too!

It takes you longer to sort her than it takes me or ffery to sort her. You realize that, right?

What she has posted is not enough for anyone to sort her, no matter how much they know her.

[Nachomamma8]

i also correctly scumread mollie in book of shadows, got her lynched day 1

[Nachomamma8]

i also correctly scumread mollie in curse of werewolves, got her lynched day 2

[Nachomamma8]

also in himym crossover whatever the fuck that game was called, got her lynched day 1

[Nachomamma8]

but mollie isnt even in the game

are you taking this up a new level

transient intergame mollie readings

ffery would like to remind you of perpetual mylo, where mollie and andrius tried to hide behind each other
this is not so different at all

[Nachomamma8]

i mean when i've actually never been wrong when scumreading a player on this site
and i've been wrong one single time when townreading that player
and i've played with this player... how many times?

that deserves one sheep vote
and if it doesn't even deserve that, then it deserves you making flipping me a priority so you can trust me

[Nachomamma8]

And okay, me claiming to read mollie when she's not even in the game is pretty ridiculous, right?
Keep that in mind while you're reading Eddie's reaction to my push:

-shrug- Alright Nacho. She told me specifically she didn't want to out that meta that she has on you, and I'm asking her to point out the posts where that supposed signal is coming from for her because I'm willing to TRUST her in her read. But, if that's not a good enough, then go ahead and lynch me.

I just called his slot scum because of one thing his partner said.
And he rolled over and died.

If I was wrong, do you think he'd have this reaction? Or do you think he would call me an idiot for ridiculous convoluted reasoning, make fun of me for not knowing mollie as well as I think I do, etc.

But since he knows I'm right, and since he and Bulbazak and Mollie all know what tends to happen in this situation, he shuts up and takes the lynch.

[Nachomamma8]

if you force this. i must lynch you to make sure you arent making a fool out of all of us.

i'm forcing it.

[Nachomamma8]

metal sonic

[Nachomamma8]

thanks bud

[Nachomamma8]

Hi Mollie!

[Nachomamma8]

Please don't be mean to her, ABR.

[Nachomamma8]

hi metal!

give me a minute to work out nacho okay? he is probs asleep right now so this is gonna take a bit. I am trying to figure where his weird jump to our slot being scum is coming from and that is when I started scum reading him cos he was pushing eddie cos I wasn't interacting with him WHAT?

eddie is only around so often so anything coming from eddie will be dependent on WHEN EDDIE IS ACTUALLY AROUND AND IS POSTING and NOT WHEN I AM AROUND WHO CAN POST.

I mean if nacho wants to say that part of my requirement in team!mafia is to hack into my teammates account and post for him by all means do it cos I love conspiracy theories. but this rush to get eddie lynched by passing him cos he is scumreading me when I am not even in the game is something I don't get!

Why do you think me scumreading you for not interacting with you is strange? Why do you think I normally scum read you initially? Also, if you started scumreading me when I started pushing on Eddie, why didn't he express as much in thread?

I'm aware of that. The first time Eddie pointed out your town read on me, it felt weird, but I let it slide. #1287 was the post where Eddie said that he was trying to prod you about your read on me, and you apparently ignored him until noon the next day even though you were active on site elsewhere. This is the specific instance where I felt ignored: I didn't feel you had to post every time Eddie showed up, but I did feel it was strange that you were leaving him out to dry by not explaining/engaging/producing anything more than a shallow read.

Was it unrealistic for me to expect a reach out when you're able to interact with me, even when that access isn't direct?

[Nachomamma8]

Oh mollie, so cute. I already answered your question, but you didn't even read it. Too panicked.

I'll tell you what, Mollie. You know how damn good of a scumhunter I am. Wanna lock into a 1v1 with consequences? I get lynched, I'm giving the town a list of four names. And townies with honor will vote those names, in order, until one of them flips green. 1, 2, 3, 4. Wanna see how many go by before a green flip, Mollie? I'm betting it'll get at least 3 in.

And if you flip green, you can do the same Mollie. Even me, even my name on the list, I'll vote. Because I have honor mollie, and because I'm not worried you'll flip green.

oh plz.

you are such scum it is confusing why you are not even lynched yet.

your honour will rest on when fall on your sword and stop leaving associative tells.

Why do you think Grey is scummy? What associative tells is he leaving?

[Nachomamma8]

Sotty it would be helpful if you posted every day.

I have been. I think I only missed last Friday because I had plans after work.

Nacho, can you answer my question about the Metal meta you provided? I admit I only looked though his ISO in that game so far but I'm not seeing too much difference and he won that game as a kinda scum role. I will have to go back into more depth though.

Welcome to the replacements.

Mollie, why did Eddie replace with you? Is it to strictly interact with nacho?

blame bulba if this goes bad.

there were some pple talking about me in this game and using me as a reason to for some weird reason to suddenly read eddie as scum? I dunno!

we are town town town

nacho if you are town which I doubt, you need to send up a town flare! <----- that is me interacting with you.

I sent up the brightest and shiniest town flare that I have and you still let me drown. If you are town, that's how we've even gotten to this point.

[Nachomamma8]

Was your read on me entirely because of one meta tell? You really couldn't give him any more than "meta tell"? :/
I don't think we've ever played together and you've given me a read like that. And generally when you believe something, you're willing to find some way to push for it or explain it without explaining your meta. You didn't do that here.

I don't think that calling me town qualifies as a reach out.

I don't really understand where you're coming from. I'm trying to sort that out.

Why is Grey scum?

[Nachomamma8]

nacho if you are town which I doubt,

OK stop right there. Why do you doubt Nacho is town? Reasons, right now, before conferring with your team or iso'ing him. You made a statement, now justify it in the next moments.

10min have elapsed.

^^^ hey nacho what do you think of this?

It seems impatient.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not sure what else you expected me to get out of that.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not sure what else you expected me to get out of that.

I am not sure what you expected to get out of your terribad vote eddie cos I replaced in and cldn't respond to you in a game I wasn't even in!

baby
this doesn't make any sense at all

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote

I don't have a town read on Mollie. I do have another 16 hour work shift at the coal mine in front of me, and I'm not interested in coming back to corpses, regardless of color.

[Nachomamma8]

hey gorgeous focus on your boyfriend pls
Why are you scumreading Grey? Why was expecting you to interact with me more in this environment so ridiculous?

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Kagami

[Nachomamma8]

Mollie:

Why didn't you explain your original townread of nacho in the first place?

The original question we relayed to Eddie for you was because singer was hoping you'd have confirmed the townread she was getting regarding Nacho (I wasn't particularly feeling him as town because of the way I felt he was handling my slot, but singer insisted you were the authority in reading him).

1. because it was a meta read that I was holding close to my chest. but I think it might have been lateral in lieu of NACHO TRYING TO STRONGARM MY LYNCH WHEN I AM NOT IN THE GAME.

can you plz walk me through as to why you were not feeling nacho as town was handling your slot since he had you as town? and posted prose about it?

cos I am really interested in hearing that!

ummmmmmm
you knew Eddie's role
you want Eddie to win as town as much as Eddie does
you can communicate through Eddie when needed

but you're not in the game?

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Kagami

What is this shit Nacho

Mollie's reactions have been pretty town!

[Nachomamma8]

UNVOTE:
Crumpets, why must this happen during sleep?

i know ur feels...

I am not even sure what i should be doing right now..

I have saved your butt in games more times than I can count and I kind of feel like you shld help me out for once!

bulba is NOT going to ask me to replace into a scum slot and he is NOT going to trade me into another 1. you shld show a little faith do want to know why?

these are my last 4 completed town games:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=60866 - lynched town d1 scum was vigged n1 flubber gave the rotating vig to us, lynched scum d2 vigged scum n2 game over town won.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=61141 - lynched town d1, found town!wisdom, lynched scum days 2, 3 and 4 town won.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=60385 - 27 players, 3 scum teams of 3 each, we only mislynched once town.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=60729 - 27 players, mislynched town once, town won.

there are some pretty good reasons why I think you shld listen to me! if grey flips town (he won't) you can lynch me.

hey nacho for some1 who was screeching for me to interact with them you sure aren't right now!

When 100% of the posts I have made are either directly to you or about you, I'm not really sure what else I'm doing in this situation.

[Nachomamma8]

The best lynches for today are Nacho or ICE information wise, Eddie's slot for play.
Need to make up my mind which.

I really really really don't understand your line of thinking

[Nachomamma8]

Why does lynching a town read of yours give information? Why doesn't lynching those same people that would be scum with a town flip from one of us give that same information?

[Nachomamma8]

Mollie, it's my personal opinom that you're being too harsh to wgeurts based on some game of the past that really isn't that relevant anymore

[Nachomamma8]

ICE, if you're willing to do legwork, read her response to me in Curse of Werewolves. If you're not, you need to wait a little while. I still think Kagami/Sotty/ooba are good lynches.

[Nachomamma8]

ICE, that vote doesn't actually make any sense at all.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm telling you that I don't have time to explain a full read. It shouldn't be surprising for you to guess I'm going to read my gf with meta, especially since I've been reading her with meta this entire time.

[Nachomamma8]

Mollie, it's my personal opinom that you're being too harsh to wgeurts based on some game of the past that really isn't that relevant anymore

mebbe. I want to knock some sense into him tho and try to help him from being terribad!

is that a crime?

but when he's playing well and you're still being rude, you're just leaning hard against him for absolutely no reason, which I think alienates people as opposed to helps them improve.

[Nachomamma8]

My vote on mollie in #844:

hey mollie can today be the day where you DON'T ignore the shit out of me?
tia

Mollie's posts after #844:

hey mollie can today be the day where you DON'T ignore the shit out of me?
tia

I am not ignoring you

but I haven't avoided any interaction with you

hey mollie can today be the day where you DON'T ignore the shit out of me?
tia

I am not ignoring you

how many times have you sought out interaction with me after saying i was town?

This is the question that I want answered the most.

you weren't around.

and i find it pretty strange that you are all up in my grille when you were not....around.

That's Iecerint's reason for you not interacting with me.
Generally when I lurk, you interact with me more!

I am interacting with you right now

do you think you've been very town in this exchange we've had together?

yep.

yeah ok you're just scum

nope.

I love you too nacho but I am not scum!

also we are a tracker and pine went nowhere last night.

go ahead and lynch me!

I have been waiting for this

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Skip to Next Vote Count

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yep

I'm townreading her because normally when I vote her and that vote is correct, she crumples like a paper bag. That is clearly not happening here.

[Nachomamma8]

This would have taken you all of about 5 minutes to look up. When I say I'm busy, I'm busy (aka only getting 3-4 hours of sleep and guess what cuts into that). When I reference you to read something and I don't tell you what I'm looking for, usually it's obvious and something you can pretty easily see for yourself.

[Nachomamma8]

Wanna talk scum theater? This is some fucking good scum theater. Convince me it's not, Nacho

And did this really come out of your mouth?
You think that I'm cross-bussing mollie/Eddie/Kagami/Sotty/ooba in this ridiculous and utterly retarded way because...?????

[Nachomamma8]

I have no idea why she would want to jump in this game if not to make ABR look bad.

you don't think me reading eddie as scum because of her interactions with me through him and me getting him lynched had to do with anything?
blaming the current shitshow on mollie seems absolutely ridiculous

[Nachomamma8]

Mollie, you're an asshole. A complete and absolute asshole, and I agree with everything ABR says about you. You are a person I could come to truly despise.

I don't understand where exactly this high high degree of animosity comes from.
Is it because she's egotistical? Because that's a really really shitty reason to hate someone in mafia: everyone I knows who plays and is even halfway decent is egotistical as shit and that's why the game is fun.
If it's because she's abrasive, well, you're one of the most abrasive players on site, ABR is massively abrasive, Fate was massively abrasive... why does that matter?
Is it really just because of the typing style? Because kanye types funny and you don't seem to irrationally hate his guts, so, still confused.

[Nachomamma8]

This entire situation happening is mostly my fault, yeah.
And it's great! Because now the game is oh so fun!

[Nachomamma8]

don't really know if i responded to this yet, responding anyway

Can you explain why you're leveling out with Kagami in 1284?

i believe kagami-town would mean my picture of the gamestate would be fundamentally wrong, and i find her capable enough of turning the game around if momentum can be built in trusting her final reads list on a green flip. i don't think she'd be listened to after she died with what she's put in thread so far, and i wanted to emphasize that. i still don't find the chance of Kagami-town to be particularly high. i still think it's important to do things just in case i'm wrong, especially in a game like this.

Additionaly, relaying a question from singer regarding your Eddie via Mollie scumread in #1291 - #1293. Did you consider if Mollie's lack of engagement with you may be influenced by her being a replacement into TM?

i did.

Thanks? Except to me it felt that wasn't the case, most of the comments you left seemed to be tailored like "EMPIRE can look town early on that doesn't mean anything"! Which instead of trying to give me space felt more like a side snipe.

there was a general sentiment that empire couldn't fake the posts he made as scum
i remember when i thought empire was absolutely shit as scum and then we only lynched him in lylo (after letting him lurk for something like four game days) because we were so demoralized we let benmage lead town

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho were you aware that wgeurts and Abr have Mollie blacklists? I hope u didn't. Though you could have. That is a higher level play than that magic Mollie reads summoning thing you did earlier

i wouldn't put abr or mollie in a position like that, even if it furthered my win condition

[Nachomamma8]

I have no idea why she would want to jump in this game if not to make ABR look bad.

you don't think me reading eddie as scum because of her interactions with me through him and me getting him lynched had to do with anything?
blaming the current shitshow on mollie seems absolutely ridiculous

Answer my list question

nacho if your next post doesnt do this im voting you and not doing anything but hard lynching you

i personally will not vote outside of {kagami, sotty, ooba}.
i will do everything in my power not to let {abr, mollie, zzzx, metal sonic, wgeurts} get lynched.
i'm not sure who's scum in {Grey, Zar}. whoever it is, they've played well.

[Nachomamma8]

i don't think that "I'm going to vote you if you don't do X" is a very healthy way to approach this game in particular.

[Nachomamma8]

i agree re: Sotty.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, can you answer my question about the Metal meta you provided? I admit I only looked though his ISO in that game so far but I'm not seeing too much difference and he won that game as a kinda scum role.

He won the game as a town mason.
He was a hydra, yes, but distinguishing him from Om shouldn't be too difficult.

I'm sorry for missing your questions: it wasn't my intention to.

[Nachomamma8]

Zar is pretty low-content overall, but I find the pushes he's made make a lot of sense, and I feel his reads and votes in general mean that he doesn't make sense as scum unless he's scum with GreyICE. Grey makes sense as town because he's been pursuing a lot of different angles, his play makes sense overall, reasoning has been consistently fairly solid. I didn't like Grey playing the terrorist game with me recently, although I'm not sure that's particularly alignment indicative.

I don't really understand your scumread on metal, even a little bit. The best people have been able to come up with against him is "inconsistent", which is pretty crap. I feel Metal's pushes and posts this game have consistently been very genuine: I don't think he says shit like "I'm the most influential player in the game" if scum, I don't think is as patient in selling the paranoia of me as scum, his push on GreyICE even follows his tendency to irrationally scumread aggressive players when town, which is something I don't think he's aware of. His trust and relationship with ABR also makes him look pretty town, as does him being uncomfortable with ZZZX and wgeurts.

sotty yeah, ooba mebbe, it is taking him forever to post but cld you plz in a tl;dr fashion explain the kagami case? I never understood it when I was trying to keep up with the game. I feel like grey in this particular instance wld be a bigger point for you to draw from but somehow you are missing it.

I am missing the point of how Grey is so scummy in particular. I don't like that Kagami's hinged her entire game on Grey being scum because it seems like a dumb risk to make if Kagami is town. I don't think her case on Grey is very strong or convincing at the end of the day.

[Nachomamma8]

I feel very strongly we should be following the vengeful play this game.
I feel following any other paths will not go well.

[Nachomamma8]

it's you/Mollie/wguerts/Zar.

what exactly is your reasoning for this team?

[Nachomamma8]

If Zar was scum with Kagami/ooba/Sotty, then I don't understand why he decides to vote the one viable scum wagon instead of two viable town ones.
Kagami-scum not voting me still doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless I bring complicated theories into it, and scum probably don't play that way despite how much I'd love if they did.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Sotty

Sure.

[Nachomamma8]

Grey, who are your four names?

[Nachomamma8]

Town should just sheep me and Sonic.

They haven't been doing that since day 2 started LOL.

why wld any1 follow you when you lynched town hoopla?

they didn't

[Nachomamma8]

bulba and eddie were both willing to hinge our entire team on grey being scum. and you are not even giving a second thought about it.

#1798 is me considering Grey as scum: I don't think Kagami/Sotty/Zar/ooba works as a team together even though I would find them the scummiest individually at this point. Me asking Grey to give me four names is asking him to give me a viable alternative to Grey/Zar/Sotty/ooba, which is the only team that makes sense without any of my 5 person block being scum.

[Nachomamma8]

tell me you are town

I'm town.

[Nachomamma8]

kagami, for not posting enough, ooba not posting at all in a game he signed up for, sotty is opportunistic, zar is is somehow cleared by my team and grey is still scum?

kagami for the unnatural position on greyice and nonproductive tunnelvision in general. kagami believes greyice is scum. kagami believes that everyone is too stupid to see why greyice is scum. kagami has done nothing particularly impressive to get greyice lynched as scum and she hasn't made any effort to root out his partners.

ooba for seraphim still. maybe ooba for ooba will happen soon.

sotty is opportunistic and not herself. she's made absolutely no effort to sort me and i have serious trouble wrapping my head around someone actually believing you'd put yourself in a position like this to "damage ABR's towncred": sonic thought that maybe i would do it to completely fuck town synergy up, but i don't think that's unreasonable, considering how heartless most people believe me to be.

i don't know why zar's cleared by your team.

i don't know why grey's scum.