Newbie 1441 (Game Over)

For Newbie Games, which have a set format and experienced moderators. Archived during the 2023 queue overhaul.
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Post Post #339 (isolation #0) » Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:16 pm

Post by Brian Skies »

Hi! I have a bit of a heavy game-load and I can't be bothered to wrap my head around this game right now, so I probably won't be able to get a full catch-up until Monday or Tuesday. There are only 14 pages, I know, but you guys talk a lot in those posts (and it's not always coherent right away). And my attention is currently being pulled elsewhere.

modus operandi: Wall-posts, general inactivity (I don't flake, at least not too hard; never replaced out so no need to worry about that).

VOTE: SecondEngineer


Anyhow, you guys are coming at notscience pretty hard. I really want to know what he's done this time.
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Post Post #344 (isolation #1) » Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:05 am

Post by Brian Skies »

In post 340, notscience wrote:Brian I think SE is town
Why do you think he's town?
In post 341, Drake Crusader wrote:SecondEngineer is also a little shady
Why do you think he's shady?


My catch-up post will come sometime in the afternoon or tonight.
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Post Post #348 (isolation #2) » Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:53 pm

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Page 1

14 I like this post. Finds something odd and comments on it. Discussion is good.
17 This is generally a good response.
19 Of the posts on the first page, this one is my favorite. Nom lays down a naked vote and Drake immediately pounces.
24 I think my predecessor has misconceptions about the RVS stage. Ambiguity might be anti-town. But promoting discussion and trying to move us away from RVS is pro-town.

Page 2

26 I can see a player of both alignments saying this. A town player might see it as a reason to push something they think is suspicious. A scum-player might use it as a reason to jump on the wagon. I'll leave it as null.
29 Sounds frustrated. TRG wants a solid response from Nom about the vote and Nom keeps skirting around it with his SE interactions.
33 The push here is just okay. I don't see Second's justification to be that big of a deal.
34 This post is good, but it's not alignment indicative. I can see any experienced player making this statement.
35 This is a good post and something that should have been addressed. Probably the only thing that points to town in this little clutter of posts.
37 Still a solid defense.
38 Interesting chip-in by JacobSavage. I don't know how to appraise it because I thought he was just a hardcore lurker. Must be his IC responsibilities.
39 This person has been fairly disappointing so far. A lot of fluff and talk about rust. I hope it gets better.
41 Interesting observation that should have led to him making or discussing reads.
43 I like the discussion in this post as a whole. I feel like Drake is actually trying to piece this out. It feels genuine. My general rule of thumb is RVS ends as soon as people start pushing each other and try to form reads. You can read more on it here.
46 This is an interesting response from Nom that I don't find alignment indicative, but only because I think it could have been faked.
47 The explanation for the vote is pretty sound here and the discussion that was generated from said vote was pretty good. I like the timing of when he decided to give his reasoning. Any longer and the responses he would have garnered would have been weird and probably not usable.
49 Oddly enough, I actually like this response. I can see how the two posts between Second and JS could be comparable.

Page 3

50 His vote on Frettory reminds me of me. I was destined for this slot.
52 On one hand, I'm scum-reading the push against Second because it feels out of place. On the other, she makes a good point that the statement didn't need the sarcasm tag. The interactions with TRG are pretty good though and I like how she's clearing things up. I like the part about her asking TRG why he just immediately assumed Nom's vote was serious. The one thing I don't like is Raven calling out a misrep against her.
53 Second's post actually kind of does compare to the post from JS. Neither one was meant to be taken seriously. I can see the issue Raven has with Second though, as it looks like he's trying to share blame. But it makes sense to me from his perspective.
56 First serious vote from this slot this game. It does worry me that it comes after Raven's push on the slot and it might be to hop on a wagon before it gains steam. I need to see more.
58 Regarding unvotes, it's better to take your vote off of someone you don't find scummy and move it to somebody that you do find scummy. I have a bad habit of leaving my votes on people too long because I don't know where else to put it. Everything else in the post looks town to me.
61 Another weird chip-in from JS. But I can see why he would be uncomfortable with Tigris.
62 Good response.
63 Who was your main suspect and why weren't you voting him? Montosh replaced Frettory and wasn't at L-1. TRG was at L-2 and I don't remember you scum-reading him.
64 I wonder what caused him to unvote and if a re-read had anything to do with it (looking at timestamps here).
65 This is an okay post. Good questions, but shallow.
66 What about it holds merit? I feel like this argument is getting way more credit than it deserves.
68 Some players can be very open as scum. Openness is not a town-tell.
69 This guy is still in full-blown SE mode right now. It feels genuine, but not town.
70 This is an interesting response that I don't find scummy. So this wasn't the reason he was lynched, or at least it shouldn't have been.
74 This is a very iffy post. Insider information isn't scummy as people tend to be more familiar with certain players. I also don't like the FOS at the end. He's not voting anybody, so I don't see a reason to not vote. And the FOS on Nom instead of Raven is a red flag. If anything got him lynched, it was probably this post.

Page 4

75 Interesting observation from JS. But the post that raises the red flags is 74, not 70.
79 I like this guy. He's the only person oozing towniness for me. Everyone else is sketchy.
83 Really? I don't see how this makes post 70 scum-motivated. He obviously saw something he didn't like and pulled his vote back for that reason. You're attacking the wrong post.
85 Good attack from notscience.
86 Another bad post from Montosh. He's not looking so hot.
87 And notscience revives the slot for me. Been scum-reading Raven up till this point.
89 This sounds genuine.
90 :roll: Not really sold on a town-read at this stage of the game. He hasn't really done anything. If at any point I'm convinced he's scum, I'm coming after him. You've seen this.
92 I'm really interested to hear why it's more likely to be scum-motivated instead of town-motivated. This jump feels wrong.
93 He redeems himself here though.
95 The logic here is pretty impressive coming from a newbie, but it's pretty sound. The only part I have an issue with is the "Montosh seems like a follower. Does that make him scum?" part. It feels like he's still trying to shed responsibility. It's still pretty damn impressive, though. Would have been nice if this wasn't the only person he tried to scum-hunt.
97 What have you been doing this game?
99 This is a pretty good post and it's kind of like the icing on the cake. It genuinely feels like he thinks he may have caught scum.

Page 5

101 Why do you think JS could have been a buddy with Montosh?
102 I'm extremely interested in the logic here, notscience.
103 I generally like the logic presented in this post. But there are no new lines of thought. Feels like you're going along with the flow this game.
104 This is an okay post. I agree that Raven was kind of suspicious, but not for the reasoning in 74.
105 I'd find it hard to believe that this is scum-notscience at this point. He makes too much sense.
107 This makes me sad because he is. Both town and scum can feel trapped. The trick is distinguishing the difference between the two.
108 I can see notscience thinking this. But I've given town the feeling of being trapped. My walls do that to people.
110 Being wagoned and up for a lynch puts you in a very good spot because you can try to pick out which players are most likely to be scum based on the way they're pushing you. I find notscience to be the least likely right now. I feel like notscience legitimately believes you are scum. The other people (with the exception of Second), not so much.
112 Pretty good argument, but I'd like to see more out of this slot.
114 I wonder what your opinion on said "not neutral" action was.
115 The gingerly argument is iffy for me because you're not applying it to Second as well (or Spaces, or Tigris). The part about voting you instead of Raven is good, but would have been better if notscience hadn't already pointed out.
121 :roll:

And this is where I stop because TRG has a reads list on the next page and I need sleep.

Town

Drake
notscience
Nom
Second Engineer
Spaces
Jacob
Montosh
Tigris
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Post Post #351 (isolation #3) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:37 am

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Page 6

126 This post feels incredibly defensive. The only part about this post that I like is the part about Second Engineer.
129 In terms of activity, I'd have to agree with notscience about Jacob. Does this make him town? No. Still wondering why Drake is a scum-read of yours. And the guy has two scumreads, so I don't see the issue with townreads.
132 Maybe. But this feels like a cheap shot.
133 I wish Tigris would be more open with his line of thinking. It feels like he's beating around the bush in this post. I don't like it. The last part is interesting and I would have liked it if Tigris elaborated on it more.
134 I like where TRG is going in this post. I feel like some of the newer players have been getting drilled and the focus hasn't been spread around. The part about scum hiding behind the newbie mistakes is a legit concern.
137 I missed this part about Tigris post, but I don't find it to be all that serious. Some people have an issue with the use of qualifying adjectives. It's pretty null for me.
138 I like this post because I've been wondering about the Drake scum-read myself.
140 My read on this slot is starting to dissipate. I liked the initial push against Montosh, but the Drake push feels wrong.
142 My predecessor has felt pretty scummy to me recently and I'm kind of sad right now. :cry: Since his last entrance into this game, he hasn't really done much except pressure JS. I wish he would at least explain why Montosh was a scum-read instead of trying to state the obvious.
146 And here he redeems himself. This was a post I had an issue with earlier and I don't see the linkage between Drake and Montosh.
147 Montosh jumps on the first defense presented to him.
148
TRG turns a 180 on Montosh. It feels like a trap. I don't like it.
Based on the next page, I'm not sure who this is directed towards.

Page 7

157 I skipped a little bit ahead here. I know notscience can be a little bit bull-headed in his 1v1's. Both have made good points. To me, notscience has been keying in on just a minor detail Montosh did and has been going to town with it. Montosh, however, is tunneling notscience, which makes sense since notscience is the main driver of the wagon.
159 Spaces continues making these great observations but doesn't actually push anyone. The bussing part is unlikely in a set-up like this. With only two scum and the Matrix 6, bussing on Day 1 is incredibly foolish.
162 At this point, I'm wondering why notscience didn't just let Montosh off with "oh, he must have just fos'ed the wrong person." The push is starting to feel very opportunistic at this point.
163 Posts 85 and 87 are what started this engagement.
165 I'm just going to assume this is the way you play. Your posts up to this point have been great observations, but I feel like there is something lacking: general analysis or formulation of reads and BITE!
167 You don't do anything interesting for the rest of the Day, so I'm just going to ignore you and place you as a player to keep an eye on.
172 I like this post all the way up until Drake says he didn't like Montosh's predecessor. Montosh pretty much replaced into a brand new slot, which ended up flipping town. The only argument I remember being made against the slot before the replacement was the slot being a bad potato that people kept dropping (people flake, it happens).

Page 8

175 Scum love to bus so they can get towncred. However, throwing unneeded suspicion onto a partner on Day 1 when they need to pull off at least 3 mislynches to win the game in this set-up is unlikely, especially coming from more experienced players. I can see newbies trying it, but not veterans.
176 Drake is attacking everything. And he had an issue with the Montosh slot way before you came in.
179 Spaces is slowly working his way up my reads list (and I'm no longer being stubborn about him). He's not being opportunistic and he's actually trying to make sense of what's going on in this game.
181 Ooh. Ooh. I like this post, all of it. I think Tigris is picking up steam. I hope I'm right. Still need to see more though.
182 Montosh is starting to get a little townier.
183 Still not liking these chip-ins.
188 Last post of his I look at before I start ignoring him. It's a very lackluster chip-in and I'm not very appreciative of it. He's not even on the wagon and he's the reason why Montosh is under the microscope, which only happened because he was being defensive. He's not really scum-hunting and people haven't been paying attention to him since he got people off his back.
196 TRG makes a similar observation I do regarding Spaces.
197 I generally like most of the thinking of this post and I'm getting really good town-vibes from it. I can actually see Spaces working his way up to this point based on the trajectory of his posts. The irritation of not being able to follow the logic feels town. I'm curious why he chose to vote notscience over the other people and how he was reading the players mentioned in the post.

Page 9

206 Got anything else besides ellipsis? You've been sitting on this wagon for a while now and you haven't contributed much aside from your SE interactions. I'm not convinced that you actually thought Montosh was scum.
207 I still think Montosh is attacking the wrong person. He should be pressuring JS, Nom, and anyone else who thought he was scum. He should also be pressuring the people off his wagon, like Tigris.
213 I'm liking the pressue on TRG up to this point, but I would have preferred if he didn't try to dodge the discussion regarding notscience.
217 And now you've meta'ed notscience and are seeing what I'm seeing regarding his push against Montosh. Still wish you'd open up more. I'm having a really difficult time reading you.
221 Feels like my wall against notscience in my Newbie game. We were both town and I ended up mislynching him for the loss. I do it again here with this reaction and here with this reaction (both same person, same game, both of us town, scum victory). I ignored a ton of town tells and scum tells in Lylo because of something I believed on Day 3. The important thing is distinguishing town flail from scum flail and it's a very difficult skill to obtain.

Drake has a reads list at the beginning of the next page so I'm using that as a check-point.

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Drake
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Spaces
Tigris
Nom
Second
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Jacob
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Post Post #352 (isolation #4) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:39 am

Post by Brian Skies »

In post 349, Nominull wrote:
In post 348, Brian Skies wrote: 105 I'd find it hard to believe that this is scum-notscience at this point. He makes too much sense.
He's making
sense
, but if sense serves the purposes of the mafia they will freely make sense. It's clear that in this case Montosh blew it and let the scum sensibly lynch him.

As a general rule of thumb pushing to lynch a townie is not a towntell.
It's not so much about making sense as it is "does this person actually believe what he's saying?"
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Post Post #355 (isolation #5) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:15 pm

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In post 353, notscience wrote:Brian, why no "oh shit I always have trouble reading ns"?
I don't know what you're talking about. I'm pretty irritated that I'm opening Day 2 with having to figure out whether I want to join your wagon or fight it.

Also, I don't trust a lot of these players with trying to read you (no Metalsonic, Hiraki, or Stubbs to fall back on). With the number of games of mine that you keep appearing in, I have to learn to read you eventually.

What are your reads on Nom, Tigris, and Jacob?
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Post Post #357 (isolation #6) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:31 pm

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In post 356, notscience wrote:You're the one who keeps stalking me
Maybe. I will deny this unless you can prove it. Also, I'm mad because you took the replacement slot I originally wanted (not this game, so don't talk about it).
In post 356, notscience wrote:In every game there's always your "ugh i dunno how to read NS well"
Because I don't know how. The only time I've seen you as scum so far was when we were scum together.
In post 356, notscience wrote:Exhibit A- 1419. Where is it here?
If you already know I'm going to say it, why does it still need to be said? After a while, it just seems pointless. Plus I still feel bad about my Newbie game and other
reasons
.
In post 356, notscience wrote:And Hiraki can't read me lol, I was his next pick for scum in 528 when I was obvtown. Metal Sonic hasn't seen scum-me, and I think I have like 1 game with town stubbs.
Lulz. I didn't even bother reading you that game. I was like, "oh three people say notscience must be town, that's cool." I even said it on like Day 2 or something.
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Post Post #359 (isolation #7) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:45 pm

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Sad thing is, this discussion wasn't so much an "is it going to happen" as a "when is it going to happen." I completely foresaw this once I decided I was going to try to read you this game.

Why is Nom town? I'm reading through page 10 and I'm not seeing it.
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Post Post #362 (isolation #8) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:00 pm

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Page 10

226 Lulz. "Charted the stars." It's interesting that you put down good reasoning for JS being scum and yet doubt that he's scum (it's alright, I do it all the time with that guy). At least you have him down as a scum-read, so I'll give you a pass. Appeal to Emotion can be found here and it's when you choose to use emotion to win an argument instead of using logic.
234 I feel like Tigris is opening up a bit and I'm liking what I see.
235 Really? It just looks like him jacking around. Not so much defensive.
240 What is this crap that I'm reading between notscience and Nom?
242 Sarcastic, not defensive. I'm hating this page.
249 Some probability that I don't care about.

Page 11

251 Reads I can agree with.
255 Good post here from Spaces.
256 Tigris has the same impression of the players as I do. I'm liking the advice towards Montosh in this post as it reflects what I've said in my posts so far. Regarding notscience, scum need to pull at least 3 mislynches to win the game. It doesn't matter how they do it as long as they can pull it off. I do like where your head is, though.
258 If there's one thing I'd lynch you for, it's that everytime Montosh tries to do something, you go back in and trap him. It's not town and it drops my read on you.
261 And this is why I hate reading you.
271 This post makes me sad in so many ways, and yet, makes me laugh because the parts about JS are probably true. Just go for who you think is scum. Also, please explain "if we lynch JacobSavage then see who the mafia nightkills that would give us an indication of who is the goon's! "

Page 12

276 I don't understand the part about Montosh. And I really don't care.
278 How did you conclude that there has to be at least one scum between JS and Montosh?
Note: It's like, on one side, people want Montosh to pressure others. The instant Montosh pressures others, notscience traps him. It's ridiculous.

285 DAT BITE! Anyhow, it feels like Tigris found something to latch onto, and it makes sense to a pretty good degree. This post feels town to me even though it's probably just attacking a newbie making jumps in logic.
287 And everyone starts shifting over with Tigger. What happened to Montosh being obvscum?
292 I don't care if JS is the IC. Also, this wagon moved soooooo fast. I also don't understand why notscience should influence your vote.
293 Annnnnnddddddd the call-out.
295 Annnnnnddddddd the back-tracking. Like, seriously, you should have known better after watching how the wagon started on Drake to begin with. Also, why didn't you present this information
before
you voted for Drake?

Anyhow, that wagon onto Drake threw me for a loop and I still want to see more from Second. Now that I've caught up, I think I'm going to go back later and see if I can't find something. I was scum-reading Nom for a while, but the part about Drake makes me want to re-evaluate him. JS is usually a scum-read of mine regardless of anything he does, so it's not something I have a lot of faith in. Tigris avoided the easy Montosh wagon and went for a Drake wagon, so I'm leaning a bit town on her right now. This generally feels like a wagon town-notscience would push, but I didn't like a lot of the trapping. Notscience is a pretty cocky player though and it shows up a lot in his play.
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Post Post #367 (isolation #9) » Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:56 pm

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In post 363, Nominull wrote:Today's lynch should be notscience. Named by lynched town, pushed hard to lynch town, called town "obvscum", unnatural actions during twilight, not helpful as a scumhunter.
Do you not think the Montosh wagon could have been town-motivated?

Regarding you, you planted your vote on the wagon for the use of a smiley face and AtE, followed up your vote with ginger playing (that could have been attributed to multiple players) and reasoning already provided by notscience here, and moved your vote 6 pages later onto JS for a similar joke post here. You attack things that are prima facie scummy (the use of ellipsis, emoticons, obvious joke posts, etc.). Towards the end of the day, you move your vote back from JS to Montosh because you didn't like the people on the wagon (are you scum-reading them or what?), jump on the Drake wagon near deadline even though you'd prefer to lynch Montosh (and deflect blame to notscience at the end of the same post), and move back to Montosh after you're called out on it. Did you think Montosh was scummy or not? And why are you so sure notscience is scum just because his wagon ended up flipping on town?
In post 366, notscience wrote:I agree with nom.

VOTE: notscience

I am clearly no help, lets lynch me.
Your self-vote demotivates me from fighting your wagon.
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Post Post #373 (isolation #10) » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:09 pm

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Except I'm not scum-reading you because it looks like a town-notscience push. The reasoning you had against Montosh made sense. The only issue I have is the trapping (and that weird buddy argument regarding Drake). Your lynch looks like it's been lined up.


Regarding inverted reads, it probably has more to do with players he has difficulty reading, so he's being more cautious.
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Post Post #375 (isolation #11) » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:14 pm

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I have JS as a scum-read every game, yet I always find it difficult as hell to vote him. It's ridiculous.
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Post Post #377 (isolation #12) » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:19 pm

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Some of his posts actually give pretty good town-vibes, but his play-style clashes with mine. It's too watered down and widespread to figure out what he's thinking.
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Post Post #379 (isolation #13) » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:25 pm

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So that leaves me, Drake, and Nom.

Why do you feel Drake is scummy? I feel like he's quite aggressive and he attacks everything. His logic at the end of the day was weird, but it didn't go against what he was thinking for most of the game.
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Post Post #381 (isolation #14) » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:28 pm

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In post 378, notscience wrote:I still stand by my SE townread.
This guy hasn't done anything since your predecessor ripped everything out of his RVS vote except that analysis against Montosh.
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Post Post #383 (isolation #15) » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:33 pm

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In post 382, notscience wrote:The newbtown easy lynchbait vibe.
That gets completely demotivated once he gets deathtunneled without understanding why. Yeah, I know the type of player you're talking about. Also, I was heavily scum-reading Raven for that push.


@Drake: What do you think about Tigris and Spaces? I don't see a whole lot of thoughts about them in your iso.
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Post Post #384 (isolation #16) » Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:16 pm

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In post 382, notscience wrote:But he gives me that newbtown vibe. The newbtown easy lynchbait vibe.
This still doesn't give him a pass for his recent lack of effort. The analysis was pretty good but he somehow manages to stay off the wagon and fly under the radar for the rest of the day.
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Post Post #393 (isolation #17) » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:05 am

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In post 392, JacobSavage wrote:Fair enough. Why would getting zerg rushed make you vote though...
He's referring to SecondEngineer.
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Post Post #412 (isolation #18) » Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:26 pm

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In post 380, notscience wrote:I don't like his stances on montosh or JS. It's giving me a bad taste in my mouth. Nothing he's done makes me think town.
Regarding Drake, is it similar to what happened when I asked you about one of your reads in 1419 (the just meh one)?
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Post Post #413 (isolation #19) » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:32 pm

Post by Brian Skies »

@Nom: It still bothers the crap out of me that you're pushing notscience because he pushed his scum-read and was wrong. YOU THOUGHT HE WAS SCUMMY TOO! WHERE'S THE ACCOUNTABILITY?

Also

VOTE: Nominull
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Post Post #427 (isolation #20) » Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:11 pm

Post by Brian Skies »

In post 425, Tigris wrote:Do find it curious that spaces wasn't lumped with nominull, but eh, that's more then grasping at straws.
The difference is that I have a townread on Spaces. His positioning on the Day 1 Montosh wagon, trajectory, and general content don't read as scum to me.
In post 425, Tigris wrote:Second/privateI's slot I want to hear more from when able.
This is probably the most important thing for me today as I don't really have anywhere to sort him right now.

Who are your biggest scum-reads and why?
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Post Post #435 (isolation #21) » Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:06 am

Post by Brian Skies »

In post 433, Spaces wrote:He went through the entire collection of posts, commented on many of them, and yet in the end the only reason he has for his vote is, "Nom is voting for NS 'cause NS was wrong."
I have my thoughts about the slot right here. I feel like he's been deflecting blame towards notscience for a while and that is a huge scum-tell for me.
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Post Post #437 (isolation #22) » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:06 pm

Post by Brian Skies »

In post 436, Nominull wrote:What reasonable person would blame me for Montosh's death?
And that's the problem, isn't it?
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Post Post #448 (isolation #23) » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:04 pm

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I think I'm due for a prod. The useless slot should post something because the last thing we need is that slot to remain useless.
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Post Post #450 (isolation #24) » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:03 am

Post by Brian Skies »

The SE/PrivateI slot.
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Post Post #465 (isolation #25) » Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:09 am

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Still waiting on TIP. Still think Nom is scummy.

And if they decide to lynch you and you're going to flip town, I want your reads.
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Post Post #672 (isolation #26) » Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:44 pm

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Woot! My reads sucked but at least I can feel good about defending notty!

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