Open 463: Black Flag Nightless (Game Over)

[JesseSheffield]

Interesting.

It was scummy that you didn't re-vote.

Is that a general scum tell or specific to absta?

well 'OMGUS'.

...what, exactly, was the point of this post?

What useful information can you get out of an explanation of a fluff post? Do you honestly believe you're going to be able to get a read from that answer?

I should clarify -

Day 1

lazy troll, if I care about a game, man I get serious later on. Like, serious serious - and I promise, if I can't get into a game when we reach 10+ pages, I'll request to be replaced, but the first few pages of a game are seriously boring for me, only because I haven't gotten good enough to really find a way to get out of RVS and accurately get some scum reads without just making everyone think I'm scummy. (haha... this game is just another good example of this)

Which I honestly don't mind in the first couple pages, almost every game that I join (and am town lawl) I'm the "big bandwagon" on the second or third page - or fifth, if things get prolonged a bit - but the fact is, I know I that there's scum obviously on the first main wagon, but it's the picking them out that I have difficulties with... I'll get better at it one day, and that'll be the day that I can actually call myself a good (town) player >.<

I'd like to know why you keep bringing up RVS long after almost every single other player in the game has stopped talking about it. You're not being genuine in your explanations for your behavior. I'd like to know how you saying there's obviously at least one scum on your wagon stops you from being scum yourself.

I don't really care for the argument between Cerulean and Thor665, as it looks more to be out of ego than alignment.

Noting this for now.

Equinox - why are you townreading Thor?

Liked how Thor665 pressured PiggyGal15 earlier. There's also some notion about Thor665 maybe not getting into an ego war because why take offense at someone doing something silly when it doesn't concern him and those posts didn't come off contrived, but I think I need to verify that I'm not doing bogus psychoanalysis first.

Cerulean why didn't you respond to this answer to your question?

Who the heck is JesseSheffield? o.O Duuuude, get in the game already!

For the record, was in a tournament in Michigan and did not expect the game to start on Saturday to be honest. Just got back today. Normally I do not wait this long to get involved.

I've got a lot to say on my reads but I'm going to wait like a page or two more for more direct interactions in case anything changes after a bit of talk.

[JesseSheffield]

P-edit: jesse I think ceru already explained her feelings on thor. And why wait to out reads? Reads are malleable and trying to hide them is never useful (especially in a nightless game).

That and what does noting this mean? Noting it as a town tell, scum tell, future associative tell, what? Being that vague doesn't say a thing there.

No no... wasn't asking you. I think its great that you're attempting to answer questions specifically asked to other people but I mean usually there's a reason they're directed at someone else. I also wasn't aware that stating you're going to post reads (which could be referred back to if I didn't hold up that end of the bargain) was hiding them.

And noting provides an easy potential reference point later in the game.

[JesseSheffield]

You're asking someone to have done something. I think they already have. Purpose being unless you think they didn't already answer it?

Noting sounds like it's worth remembering. So what's interesting about it.

Waiting to give reads is an excuse to not deal with early read construction. Is there a bad thing to outing reads (they can be changed)? Can you not see a benefit to outing reads and then discussing them more in detail?

~Mehdi

I'm starting to think you didn't quite read what I was asking of Cerulean properly. If you think otherwise I'd love to see you quote it. Legitimately nothing is interesting about a note unless someone takes an action that proves it worthwhile. That's why its a note, not an observation. Considering I haven't had any one on one interaction with any of you it would be pretty stupid to go off initial reads. For example my opinion on you has already changed and its only taken two posts of interaction! Now that is some benefit.

[JesseSheffield]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jesse
That post was just... horrid. Really really horrid. So there's 7 pages now, and all you're doing is reiterating what's already been said, just phrased slightly differently?
Love how you bring up me talking about RVS out of RVS almost double the posts later - while we've been out of RVS for quite some time. Very very interesting indeed.

That whole post looks like you're trying to be active while not really doing anything at all.

p-edit - the fact that you're still not saying what's worth noting in that quote just makes me all the more sure you just posted that to make yourself look busy and active.

Actually they were pretty specific questions that I'd love to get the answer to. And I just had to point out how disingenuous you were being about wanting to get out of RVS so bad and trying to get out of it and never look back. As for me, I don't care either way. Active lurking blah blah blah... like three posts into this game. Chill.

Equinox - why are you townreading Thor?

One other question to ceru being why argue so much with thor who's a town lean like that?

Thors a lean town read. I get my best reads from interaction, and thors fooled me before. I'm leaning town on him, but we can argue to make sure. Besides once he realizes we're town, if he's town as I think, it will make it that much easier for town to work together and win.

I think that answers her own question fine.

Okay that's pretty much what I thought, you didn't really follow that.

In post 120 Cerulean asked Equinox why he had a town read on Thor, when really he said:

I don't really care for the argument between Cerulean and Thor665, as it looks more to be out of ego than alignment. The Empire head sounds like town; I might dig deeper to see if he has any scum games, but his posts so far are reminiscent of Micro 53, which is good. Thor665 might be town, but take that with a grain of salt. Actually, now that I think about it, it might be worth a look to see if Thor665 gets into ego wars as scum. Agree that N's probably town.

which
1. Is a null read not a town read.
2. Is a really good way of throwing in his opinion that the Cerulean/Thor argument is town/town without explicitly saying so. And which is a really good way of covering a scum buddy's back when they're getting attacked without explicitly doing it. And which is a really good way of going back and saying oh hey we weren't buddies because I just said he sooounds like town, not that he is town... without explicitly stating that.

So then Equinox answered Cerulean's inquiry about why he had a town read on Thor, but Cerulean never acknowledged Equinox's explanation (even though he specifically probed for it). Which in my opinion is a great way of prodding a scum buddy to maybe explain something a little bit that they think they might be missing or looking bad on. And not answering that commentary is a good way of getting it out there and dropping it without buddying up. Considering its about Thor, who in my opinion is pretty much the "lead town" player, it would be great for both Cerulean and Equinox if they were scum to look and get that player on their side. Or at least not against them. And also considering Cerulean's been doing quite a bit of playing nice with Thor.

That would be why I asked Cerulean:

Equinox - why are you townreading Thor?

Liked how Thor665 pressured PiggyGal15 earlier. There's also some notion about Thor665 maybe not getting into an ego war because why take offense at someone doing something silly when it doesn't concern him and those posts didn't come off contrived, but I think I need to verify that I'm not doing bogus psychoanalysis first.

Cerulean why didn't you respond to this answer to your question?

And then you stepped in with this garbage:

Equinox - why are you townreading Thor?

One other question to ceru being why argue so much with thor who's a town lean like that?

Thors a lean town read. I get my best reads from interaction, and thors fooled me before. I'm leaning town on him, but we can argue to make sure. Besides once he realizes we're town, if he's town as I think, it will make it that much easier for town to work together and win.

I think that answers her own question fine.

Which had legitimately ZERO to do with what I was asking Cerulean.

Now all that long term game play crap doesn't at all matter if Cerulean didn't get lynched and flipped scum. But since I wanted to hear a little bit from Cerulean, and since Cerulean's my #1 scum read (which I'm going to outline in my reads) I kind of wanted to hear from the source itself. So thank you Soul, for forcing me to explain INTERNAL long term game play with a complete load of drivel that was derived out of literally nowhere and deciding to answer questions that were intended for others to answer.

In terms of putting out my reads now (to everyone who inquired) sure I could but considering a lot has happened without my input I'd like to be interjected into the game first without throwing away reads too early.

Thor: Alright. RVS meta on you tucked away. I completely disagree but every player is touchy about their RVS theories so that's fine. It seems to me that absta is playing this game with a Mafiascum Theory 101 logic. i.e. "OMGUS vote? Okay you're town." Answering someone's question, then immediately following with a reactionary question that may or may not really do all that much in terms of scumhunting, it just seems like the appropriate thing to say like,

I believe I would've voted absta if I were you. The reason being I didn't comment on anything, I just voted.

---
@Thor - Are you implying you think Equinox is scummy?
Why should I have re-voted?

or really any other of his posts. Iso of absta leads me to believe that absta is really, genuinely clueless about everybody. So I've got a solid town read on him. I was just wondering if you for some reason had different reason to believe so.

[JesseSheffield]

Why is being clueless a town tell?

Because that would mean absta doesn't know any players' alignment. According to what was outlined in the rules, that would make him a town player.

Cerulean...

[JesseSheffield]

Thor: I definitely meant "not knowing people's alignments". What I'm getting from absta is just really really basic town play. Trying to build somewhere through basic question and answer. I don't really believe he has any idea where he's going with his line of questioning, which leads me to believe he's just not very savvy town.

Soul: Of course its reaching because it wasn't meant to be spoken out loud in the game until you decided to step in where you didn't belong and try to force me to justify a line of questioning that wasn't even meant for you.

And I can't believe this:

Don't think it's bad to answer someone else's question if you think they're leaning town or are a town read.

just came out of a

rational

mafiascum player's mouth. Give me some good reasoning behind that or I'm just going to assume you're not.

[JesseSheffield]

Thor: That's more of a commentary on the style of play he's exhibiting, which ties into why I think he's clueless.

Vote: Cerulean

Wondering if Cerulean will actually respond now...

[JesseSheffield]

What is the newcomer going on about?

I see you're going to be fun to play with. Although I can't possibly understand the superiority complex you seem to have taken upon yourself given your play so far in this game.

@Jesse - I grok that this looked like a playstyle thing - that's what confusing me.
Why would someone using a playstyle you describe as of questionable scumhunting merit help prove that they don't know people's alignments?

I'm not really interested in how much merit someone's scum hunting ability holds. I'm much more interested in why they're going about using that method.

just came out of a

rational

mafiascum player's mouth. Give me some good reasoning behind that or I'm just going to assume you're not.

You arguing with someone I think is town is likely for you to suspect them unless you change your mind. I'll want you to change your mind since lynching a town read I don't want.

Anyways I've argued near identical things before:

I think he's town. I'm going to defend him.

Defending and answering questions on someone's behalf are way different. I'm getting the impression you're way more intelligent than to not believe that. Either way, I'd appreciate it if you didn't do it again because it could lead to much more interesting things than the crap we just slogged through.

[JesseSheffield]

Hey voided - I know you don't want your rep to be writes tons of walls or spam responses, but your responses to things are falling pretty flat. Like you're not really engaged but are trying to keep busy.

That's ironic.

Potential wall in response to Soul is approaching...

[JesseSheffield]

N: Has not posted since page 1 so there's literally nothing for me to read on him. Lurking town or lurking scum... obviously.

Sixty: Getting a good, solid town read. I get good vibes from players who deconstruct a post to figure out the "why" behind it. Mainly in this post

So you're going to consciously do something scummy and say "oh well done you get a Town read" when you're called on it?

No. I reviewed what I did after Equinox voted me to see if his vote was warranted.

This sounds remarkably like you decided you were going for reactions

after

the fact.

and almost entirely of posts 79 and 134 (and now 196 in p:edit).

Voided: I'm leaning scum here. I don't get good vibes from players who pander a bit to other players and that's what I'm getting from Voided. You can't force someone to understand your point of view but if you consistently sit back and let others ride over your thoughts I'm thinking its probably because you don't really want too much attention on yourself. I don't think you can softly hold a stance and be reliably trustworthy. I think this:

Voided - you say there have Ben no attempts to find the scum on her wagon, but piggy did say in Post 16 who was scum on her wagon and why. It might be a little flimsy but it's still an attempt.

Fine, there was an attempt in the early stages, but as I said, that's pretty much all she tries prior to me saying she hasn't done anything. Now, I'm not trying to say that my attack in that regard spurred her to post (though it'd be slightly funny and more incriminating for her if that's true), but any good analysis (or attempted analysis) is still hard to find there.

This:

Voided - what do you think about sixty's case on piggy?

Well, I disagree that it feels contrived. As for the meat itself, points 3, 5, and 6 (all of which relate to her wagon analysis, or lack of) are pretty valid. I mentioned before that I found a distinct lack of analysis for her wagon (even for a non- to semi-serious RVS one) to be rather off and farily incriminating, so I am glad that someone else agrees with my own findings in this regard.

This:

And unless I'm seeing the wrong 60 that post focuses on absta not piggy.

Meh, sorry. Point being, I gave reasons for why I suspected both of them. I still don't really like Piggy, though, which is why I'm still voting her.

And this:

Voided I've been calling absta town. He's a town read not a scum read.

Fine, fine. That doesn't change my point, which you've neglected to actually address.

is all wishy-washy without conviction play. I've rarely found wishy-washy players to be pro-town players and the convictions Voided do give are all short-sighted and honestly, fairly baseless.

Cerulean: Pretty confident scum. And a lot of it has to do with their interaction with Thor. Thor’s been the most vocal, on point focused player contributing the most scumhunting across a broad range of players. It is a good, good idea for scum to get on the good side of this player in a nightless game. Reading Cerulean’s ISO is like reading a player figuring out being on the opposite side of a good player is a bad idea.

Thor - if you don't learn how to play nicely, I will sit you two on opposite sides of the room and take your hammer away from you. You say that my other head was reactively offensive to you, but you fail to acknowledge that you claimed that you were fitting him with a dunce cap. Thor, I expect more from you, you have two scummies and should know better

There is a difference between offense 'giving insult' and offense 'attacking' last I checked.
Are you denying the immediate attack to an otherwise normal question?

I see someone who said they had read scum meta and had a town game they wanted to dig into, then you claim they weren't doing things properly because they were only reading scum games (even though they said they were going to read a town game) and that you were fitting them with a dunce cap. You were a bit insulting, and people don't like to be insulted. I see him reacting to that.

It wasn't a normal question, and I think if you read it objectively you'll see how you provoked him and how he responded to you in kind. You were being a bit condescending, you know you were, if you're honest with yourself.

Starting with that right there, when push came to shove instead of providing some solid reasoning in a back and forth Cerulean decides to resort to “well, you were being insulting so that’s why he reacted that way”. That’s totally baseless, that line of reasoning was not at all being insulting. And completely inconsistent with the way Cerulean plays.

I also think its really scummy when two players are having a back and forth about argument A and one player decides to bring in a completely argument B:

What do you think a out sixty's case on piggy?

But moving on everything Cerulean says to Thor screams begging and pandering player to me. I think its masked by an attempt to be humorous but it just looks see through to me. Half of it is like “no no you’re doing this wrong for (insert baseless reasoning)”:

Did you read what he said? It is why he said "suggests" because even though it was similar, I had pointed out a possible town game that showed a similarity of her behavior.

So, would you like to go back and read the part of the post you missed? Namely that he's planning on completing the task your chiding him for not doing and tht he made that clear?

Thor - you're vote is bad.

He said he had a town game he wanted to dig into in Post 64. That is the recently completed town game he references that he wants to dig into.

Please read.

And the other half of it is like but “hey we have this playful banter which may seem mean-spirited but I swear I think you’re town so let’s work together!”:

Don't care if you're condescending to me...your big ego can talk to my big ego and have a party.

Did you miss the part where I'm leaning town on you?

I thought it was a stupid question? If you think you're town and scum game are indistinguishable its leading and u productive. You're trying to jump on someone, howl and whine. That's obvious. I want you to stop doing it because it doesn't help town.

So, your ego is fractured? You may not remember but you've fooled me before. I read you town as hell when you replaced into experimental; I don't easily forget being duped. I'm reading you different enough that you're leaning town, but most town...he'll no.

And my absolute favorite, mainly because they pretty much state exactly the reason why I’m voting them.

Thors a lean town read. I get my best reads from interaction, and thors fooled me before. I'm leaning town on him, but we can argue to make sure. Besides once he realizes we're town, if he's town as I think, it will make it that much easier for town to work together and win.

Moving on to more recent matters.

Are you entertaining the notion that this happened?

JesseShef, where precisely are you getting the notion that absta is clueless

and

Town?

I entertain a LOT of notions. I usually just don’t voice them until they can become relevant. I’m catching clueless town read on absta specifically from the string of posts 52, 54, 55, and 59. It reads to me a player that isn’t really sure what direction to head into so he’s willing to try anything to give him an idea of a direction. And his vote on Voided, to me at least, is almost laughably bad and inconsistent. I just don’t think he’s exhibited enough knowledge on the going-ons to be scum. Not that you need to be intelligent and self-aware to be scum, I just don’t feel the way absta’s posting is leaning scum, at all.

[JesseSheffield]

Jesse you make logic sound town. It's fairly easy to fake and that's what a lot of what sixty says is. Simple logic without bothering to take in player factors and a tendency to assume vs question and decide for a scum read. Weak, but I'm kind of missing the usual bit of set up spec I'd expect both to be able to give (weak because how this set up isn't that special but still noticeable).

Next you do know who thor is right? I called thor normal for a reason. He's a player most are paranoid for so treating it like it's a big deal is exaggerating quite a bit (or you've never played with the mastermind named thor).

It probably does seem like I'm looking at logic as a town tell but that's not my intention. Right now I just feel the logic behind what Sixty is doing feels town to me. Intention is obviously really hard to read but that's a lot of what I try to find and I feel like particularly in the posts I pointed out, and also 196, I’m reading a town player pushing through sludge to zero in on scum. I also read Sixty as a town player genuinely getting annoyed by threats to productive game play.

I have played with Thor before. He (as a scum player) convinced an entire town to lynch me on Day 1 and I’m still pretty salty at every single person in that game for listening to him.

[JesseSheffield]

Voided:

Quote 1: I don’t agree the core of your explanation is still there. If it is I’m not even sure what it is. I get that you’re agreeing there was an attempt from piggy to scum hunt but I don’t know if you’re trying to say she isn’t doing anything or just isn’t doing anything well. All I’m getting is you telling Cerulean they’re right and then dropping it pretty much.

Quote 2: I don’t see any depth or real effort into dissecting what was being asked of you. Not saying that you have to but it looks like you just gave a basic, wishy-washy half-agreement.

Quote 3: Starting with “sorry” (which I don’t feel has a use in mafia) ending with a “well I don’t really like this person but I also don’t really like this person so I’m just going to sit here and continue with that” I don’t find that to have any real thought put into.

Quote 4: Well I think that should theoretically completely change your but I mean there’s really no reason why you should if you’re scum because radically changing your view point and then defending it would raise a lot of attention to yourself.

Baseless? You can quote my stuff and say it "lacks conviction" all day (which you honestly haven't explained clearly), but if you're going to call my case baseless I'd sure as hell like to know

why

.

I mean starting with your vote on Thor the only thing I’ve seen you’ve even admitted you haven’t really looked over his posting closely and... I mean that’s it that’s all I’ve seen from you about Thor. Other than asking “seriously?” If you have a base point it out cause I literally do not see it at all.

I didn't come here for any bullshit drama. I came here to play mafia with what I believe to be a great roster. So let's just cut this out now.

I just LOL’ed. Mainly because I have zero idea if it was Empire or not posting at me but if it was that’s just a hilarious statement.

[JesseSheffield]

Yeah I mean I was referencing all of this:

What is the newcomer going on about?

You should! I'm sure it will be useful for the future.

Oh gosh! I forgot my manners. Thank you equinox for answering my question.

Why are you asking me this question? Did you think it needed further probing? Did you not think the answer to the question was sufficient? Did you not understand the motivation for the question? Help me out here.

Why aren't you asking better questions? And why in this entire wall post did you not mention anything about sixty?

This post owns.

Wow...are you a runner? Cuz if you are, you can probably run twice your normal distance after that stretch.

Also, when I'm playing nice with someone they don't usually call me pedantic.

I feel like there's a buzzword for what you're doing here whatisitcalled? Whatisitcalled? Whatisitcalled?

I'm

almost

always fun to play with. But you know what? You're cute. Tell you what...867-5309...shhh...don't tell anyone.

I don't have a superiority complex, but hmmm, let's *looks at the votes* you're not really one to talk when you're vote's sitting on town...for demonstrating a superiority complex? K.

That’s where my LOL came from. Because to me that all reads as bullshit drama. I would post more from what was directed at everyone but that would be a long wall so I’m just referencing what was directed at me. I mean I don’t care if someone is going to act condescending towards me. Just don’t sit here and tell me you’re going to act like this:

I didn't come here for any bullshit drama. I came here to play mafia with what I believe to be a great roster. So let's just cut this out now.

when you’ve done all that above because THAT is insulting. I’m sorry that you’re a hydra and can’t control each other but I mean how is anyone supposed to play with something that is supposed to be acting as one... acting like that.

Speaking of Jesse, I don't like how she withheld her reads for so long (I understand things change along the way, but it does help others to understand how dynamic your reads are so they can further reads on you), and I obviously dislike her scumread on me, but the feeling I get from her posting and the way some of her posts feel give me a townread. It's not the feeling like MoI or Thor where they act belligerent and make you somehow feel inferior, but there's an underlying terseness that just rubs me the right way.

I know I have pink in my icon but I am a guy. Therefore you can be assured my terseness isn’t from PMSing. Its just genuinely (but apologetically) being irritable.

[JesseSheffield]

Jesse is, well, Jesse's special. I had a scum read on him for his first post, but then he wrote about feeling salty about Thor lynching him day one when Thor was scum. That read town to Empire, so I'm not sure. I also was a bit swayed by his start date, but then I looked at his number of posts and he only has 342, which means he's not as experienced as I originally thought, so the jury's out. He seems like he's trying, but I'll have to see what he brings next. He didn't answer my question though about why I didn't respond to a question that was answered sufficiently, which just reads weird considering he came up with a long drawn out theory for why I asked a question and didn't follow up.

Whoops, wrong. If you’d looked a little deeper you’d have realized I’ve never played with Thor on this account which means I played him on an alt. I’ve got three other alts and I’ve been here since 2008 sooo... that just got awkward. And if you’re going to act like an ass to me what do you really think the chances are I’m going to answer a non-serious question. Also, point out where I got demeaning towards you first... because that definitely never happened. You can't act like that and then expect anyone who's been here for a while be like "oh wtf I've never run across anyone act like this before this is outrageous and I'm going to throw a temper tantrum and play to his game". It doesn't work like that.

Getting a scum read off someone from their very first post... that sounds like a really solid strategy and if you have no idea what I’m talking about maybe you can go read a little harder because it didn’t seem like anyone else had any difficulty understanding.

Voided: I don’t really know if you want me to go back through on the offense on every one of your defenses but I feel like we’ve hit a stand still. If you have any questions I’d be obliged to answer otherwise I mostly stand behind my original opinions. I guess apologizing is alright, I just don’t think its got a place here **just an opinion**.

Thor: What I didn’t see from absta is a hit of logic in “oh here, I can attack this or go with this and make it look credible”. I just see a complete lack of inspiration for taking a solid direction. To me, that looks like he doesn’t know anyone’s alignment and is in general lost.

[JesseSheffield]

Wow. Okay, so you are not new. Then what's with you expecting a sort of kumbaya game? And how come you're not actually reading people's alignments.

My question was 100% serious, so what was the point of your question to me then?

If you got offended because I asked the newcomer thing, I really have no clue. You voted for me for not answering a question. I had no idea what you were going on about. And now that I am through the thread, I'm even more flabbergasted. It was quite obvious I was responding to things as going along and you tried to make it look like I was ignoring you.

You're acting all butthurt because I wondered what the person whose posts I hadn't read yet was going on about by voting for me because I hadn't responded to something I hadn't read yet? You insulted my play, you might want to remember that.

Now you're behaving badly. I never insulted you. Was I a bit snarky, sure. A little rude, maybe. But I didn't insult you. Sure it's possible to get a scum read on someone from their first post, just like its possible to get a town read. I don't know where the problem is there.

1. Never said I was offended, insulted, or butt hurt. That was a good play to try to make it look like I'm playing off emotion though. That doesn't really work though when you don't have the evidence to back it up.
2. When you walk in with an attitude without deserving the right to have an attitude you're not going to get any modicum of respect from me. You're not the first or even the hundredth player to try to play that type of game. But when you're like the seventh or eighth person I've run into that acts like that, it gets old and tired and boring.
3. You weren't serious, you just misquoted my reason for voting you, and you aren't seriously reading the thread and responding accordingly. So until you get your act together, you aren't getting any cooperation from me. Because THAT would be anti-town play on my part.

[JesseSheffield]

Here's a clue - both of your votes are utterly useless right now. You better start selling those cases like champs or should move to a more useful wagon.

There are zero wagons that have any momentum, literally every wagon is at a standstill. Not just those two.

Back to Cerulean:

I don’t buy

Our Piggy meta research is still ongoing. We've read two of her scum games (namely this one and this one) and they suggest she's playing to her scum meta here (re: the awkwardness in her posting/reactions), but she has a recently finished town game I want to dig into.

this whole business. Saying piggy is suggestively playing to her scum meta is the kind of soft attack scum like to use to throw a little kindling on the fire without being the log themselves. Obviously pushing piggy out too fast would look scummy as hell so Cerulean’s vote sat on absta for 15 posts without even mentioning absta and instead trying to poke holes at different people feeling out a good direction (since the town literally has none).

I really want to vote sixty right now as that case they just made looks pretty contrived and pushing for an easy mislynch. I need to talk to the other head about that though.

The whole case on Sixty is so contrived too. Especially because of their supposed reliance on meta with piggy.

He said he had a town game he wanted to dig into in Post 64. That is the recently completed town game he references that he wants to dig into.

If piggy constantly gets Day 1 attention like they say then probably the smart thing to look at what be how scum reacted to piggy Day 1 and how they reacted in this game but I mean, we never really heard anything about how that research went...

But they know it because they won’t push it directly themselves, they keep prodding others to do the dirty work for them. piggy started as an easy target, its so easy to sit back and say “oh well this person’s case on piggy makes him scum because they’re just trying to fabricate a plausible reason on an easy target”. Its easy to try to find one minor detail and say “that’s scum! This could possibly not make sense and they’re taking the easy way out.” Not to mention the fact that I actually think Sixty’s case on piggy did make sense and did have some merit.

What do you think a out sixty's case on piggy?

Voided - what do you think about sixty's case on piggy?

And yet you make not one comment on sixty or their case on piggy even though you say she's coming off as more honest. Why is that?

And why in this entire wall post did you not mention anything about sixty?

What are your thoughts on sixty?

Cerulean’s entire case on Sixty is built off Sixty’s case on piggy. Which, by the way, Cerulean never took the bother to explain why its scummy. And then when they did finally decide to explain themselves.

Okay, so here is where I really start to have a big problem with this case. You say that meta was a part of your case. I'm assuming you're referring to reversed mafia are you not? I followed that game and re-red your case when you brought it up. In that case you said that piggy was not competent at either alignment. So, you acknowledge that as town she's not competent, and then you chide her for not deconstructing her wagon immediately, which is something that I've only rarely seen in a game, even though she did single out one person for being scum on her wagon and give a reason why. As I said to voided, it was flimsy, but it was still a reason. You're acting like there is none, and that you're familiar with her meta, which according to you is incompetent but then expecting her to be competent.

It looks to me like you are going for an easy mislynch. Your entire case is weak and I'm wondering why you made a case so early in the game, especially before you tried to ascertain motivations. To me it looks like you are trying to assign an alignment to piggy rather than find out what her true alignment is.

Its exactly the type of case I laid out. But now that they’re stuck with this wagon.

Tammy: Stop bitching at others please and thank you. Between Thor and Jesse, you're already making this game a painful drag. It's one thing to try and rile people up to figure out alignments, but at this stage it feels like you're pointlessly hamming it up.

So, did you really just stop in here to toss a little insult my way, and not actually do anything with the game itself. It really sucks you drew a scum pm this game. (I suppose the response to the case could be you, but you have a good memory and would remember writing something in a case so I'm guessing not.). There was no town purpose to this post at all, no matter what way you try to dress it up.

They’re just going to try to fling any flimsy post they can on top of it. Because they can’t change targets now with so much attention to them, it’d look scummy as hell.

Right now my biggest suspects are equinox/voided/sixty

And considering these are supposedly Cerulean’s biggest scumspects, they sure do a lot of unnecessary fighting with players they supposedly have a town read on. What’s the point of trying to get a town player on your side if you’re town on Day 1? I would actually love for someone to seriously answer that because it doesn’t make logical sense. It does make logical sense for scum to try to get an actively pro-town player on their side on Day 1 though.

Thor: Does any of that make sense to you?
absta: Can you explain a lot more in depth your reads? (Also, not trying to be insulting, its just the way I feel)
Sixty: If you honestly think Cerulean is town, can you explain why? I did so about the player you’re voting for...
N: If you have any suspects can you ISO them and give us an explanation for your reads on them?
Soul: Can you give an updated reads list?

[JesseSheffield]

Thor: Then no one's going to get anywhere. And I already said I'm leaning scum with Voided in post 206.

[JesseSheffield]

Alright well, I'm down for a Voided lynch. I think Voided by far comes out looking the worst in the Voided/absta back and forth and its seriously bogging. I can't discern anything useful, or reasonable, that's coming out of that argument.

Vote: Voidedmafia

[JesseSheffield]

Cerulean's Townread came from the similarity in behavior between here and elsewhere re: Tammy. It's how Tammy scumhunts - needling players she is not familiar with for reactions. However, we still believe she is needlessly hamming it up, instead of directing it toward those she actually seems to suspect or doing something with the results. It seems belligerence for its own sake, and we know she can play the part as scum.

If that's the case (and this could be opened up to anyone who can answer) is Tammy familiar with Thor?

Jesse comes in during post #155 and posts what we believe to be a really bad and scummy post.

(With no discernible/rational/reasonable explanation as to why)

[JesseSheffield]

Awww yay now see if that had just happened four pages ago the majority of the filth lately wouldn't have been necessary and we all could have just skipped along to being one step closer to lynching scum. Okay I'm done being difficult now.

A lot of that seems fair to me. I don't think noting something publicly is at all a bad thing. Its good if something happens later in the game and you can make the connection from before instead of it just seeming like you made it up to fit your point. I like long-term and short-term game play. I can at least understand you cherry picking and parroting points though. I can also understand why someone would make a Voided/Sixty/Jesse connection but I didn't really feel like promoting that.

[JesseSheffield]

Meh. I get short and sarcastic when people seem to start asking stupid questions. Two points are things he could find if he went back to where they originated from as they're fairly clear on what I'm talking about. The others are mainly him asking stupid/silly questions like he's acting like he doesn't understand what I'm saying or is intentionally misreading what I'm saying. Now, maybe my sarcasm has gotten in the way of actual answers, but if you can't figure out my points then please say so.

To me its not a matter of how you’re delivering your message its that I think you’re carrying on arguments that aren’t necessary. And I think you’re doing it to be busy and attack a weaker player instead of exploring other avenues in the game. I think what you’re doing is anti-town.

Also, where did the Piggy wagon go? Is it just that the grass is greener on other wagons?

I’m getting a town read on Piggy. I would not be willing to support that wagon.

[JesseSheffield]

[quote="In I'm extremely lazy as mafia (as the Black Mask game should show you if you've read it). The fact that I've earned "creepy stalker points" by reading and linking you to one of your posts from one of your recent scum games that suggest you are constructing your reads similarly is something that would never, ever, ever come from me as scum (PS: at the risk of tipping my hand early, Tierce's case against PiggyGal is also reminding me of her play in Abarat 2 and Doctor Who.[/quote]

What I'm trying to reconcile here is if you're so aware of your meta, as most skilled MS players are, what's to stop you from actively changing it here for the sake of a win? I mean stating it here would mean the next time any of us play you elsewhere and you exhibit that behavior we've theoretically caught you as scum.

[JesseSheffield]

Oh Jesus. #quotefail

[JesseSheffield]

Well I wouldn't bring it up if for example I knew your play and was like "okay, they're actively playing to their town/scum meta". To me, it just looks fishy when someone says "look, this is my meta when I play as scum and I'm not acting to that meta". Its just like well... other than the obvious reason than try to convince someone you're not scum I don't know if its something a town player would bring up, at least not on Day 1 when you don't have anyone on your wagon (and the one person who's interested in a wagon on you is not garnering any support) and you really haven't built too much of an in-game resume to support that claim. I don't necessarily consider that a pro-town thing to do.

[JesseSheffield]

I really don't think Voided is scum, unless he's just that good that he can make his posts feel genuine and keep the exact same tone that they do when he's town sooooo... Voided is town.

I don't understand. Are you saying you have Voided town meta... but not scum meta... and you're just judging him on his town meta?

[JesseSheffield]

In other news - Ceru is town anyway, meta be damned, so...?

Other than Cerulean being "obv. town", which as you know is always such a... convincing... rationale, I'd love to see where you explained some rational reasons as to why Cerulean is town. And with all meta talk aside please. Its getting pretty old.

[JesseSheffield]

Why meta talk aside? If you think meta reasons given are bad then why not give meta reasons on how it's wrong (or reasons on why a meta read isn't good for ceru).

Because I'd like to see Thor have to give competent in-game research to support his read on Cerulean 1. because I'm wondering if Thor is capable of doing it and 2. to see if Thor is basing 100% of his read on meta.

[JesseSheffield]

Cerulean: There’s a lot to address so I’m going to try to just comment/respond to what I think will be relevant moving forward but if there’s something I skipped over that you want an answer to just ask and I’ll do it.

I’ve played with a lot of assholes so if I get the impression someone is not going to cooperate with me nicely I snap off. Much like I did with Soul initially when I felt Soul was stepping into “territory” of mine. I missed the part where you were reading through and I pretty much thought you were purposely ignoring me, until the first post acknowledging me included the term “newcomer”. Call it pride/arrogance/conceit... I just did not think too favorably of that. Moving on, over it, progressing the game now.

What it seemed like to me, involving Sixty’s case on Piggy, was that you were fishing players’ opinions to gain something to build upon. Whether you were or weren’t, that never really materialized anyway so its kind of a moot point. That’s good to note though that 3/4 scum jumped aboard an early Piggy wagon.

In general I think this is the most I’ve understood about your thought process. I know its not a requirement to kind of spell things out like that right away but personally I appreciate it because it helps me understood you better (which I’ll admit isn’t always in a player’s favor) and it does help me make minor adjustments to my reads. That helped a lot.

Actually I haven't used any meta talk (though I claimed my case was meta free) and no one has asked me for the read yet - which I always find funny.
You seem really focused on pushing this one through, and I don't think I could even describe your Cerulean case right now - are you sure you've got one?

Oh I know you haven’t used meta talk, it doesn’t really seem like you’ve used much talk at all which is why I’m interested to see what you have to say. And making sure its sans meta. That way, you know, I can see you’ve got a mind focused in this game. And I know you couldn’t describe my case on Cerulean because you didn’t even read it.

Are you sure you’ve got a case on Voided? Because right now I only see 2/3 with a real case on the leading wagon and you’re not one of them.

[JesseSheffield]

So you're saying that if I present a reasoned and logical case I'll prove that my reads are awesome and that Ceru is town?
And, what, you can't give a two sentence summation of the Ceru case? It must be bad then.

More like if you present a reasonable, logical case it’ll suggest that you’re pro-town. As is reading other players’ cases if you’re going to demand them.

I think my case on Voided was called 'beard' at some point.
I've done quite well by 'beard' cases in the past, even have won two bets over them - so I'm not sure how that doesn't count, it's got to be as solid as anything in he wiki. If I typed up an article would that make it more sheepable?

I feel like that’s probably awesome and reasonable to someone else, idk... does Empking still play? But a real case that you can quote would be more pro-town.

[JesseSheffield]

Oh damn it things are getting interesting and I'm not going to be back on until late tonight. Great post by JT though. I'm going to respond to some specific points later but I completely skipped all the filler in between so my comments pending.

[JesseSheffield]

This game needs four Townies to be broken. As long as these Townies aren't lynched, we win. We have these four Townies already: Cerulean, absta, Thor and us.

Okay I saw this yesterday when I was desperately trying to catch up and post before having to pack up and go but I've been mulling on it ever since and this just comes across as terrible to me. I understand the idea... and it makes sense... but looking at my word document for this thread Sixty just listed #5, 7, and 8 on my list of most town-least town. Along with my #1. I would assume here that if Sixty were scum they listed on of their buddies, who they thought was the most overt pro-town player in the game, and another filler to look like this is a pro-town idea. And I don’t necessarily think it would be in a town player’s best interest to pull that on twilight 1. Either way I am almost certain with these four players left in the game that is a town loss.

If we are lynched, so be it--add Jesse to the list of people that must not be lynched (absta, Cerulean, Jesse, Thor), and flip the rest.

However the addition of this makes me just lean scum on Sixty because that adds a player who the majority of the town seemingly has a town read on. So I don’t see how that would be in the best interest of scum to keep me in the game so long. That might’ve just been a good save though after the fact.

I don't even remember anything Voided has done. But then again, I haven't been paying the best attention to this game. Right now, the only things I can remember are that Piggy did some really scummy shit early game (I can't remember anything she's done since, though, so I guess that's how she's slipped others' suspicions?), Sixty has made some horrible cases (seriously, the last time I saw a case that bad was by a cop who had a guilty result but didn't want to claim their role), Mehdi/blue-avatar/Thor had a big argument with lots of walls (I skimmed most of it), and there's too many damn hydras running around (and I can't keep them straight). Oh, and Justin Timberlake replaced in and made

more

fucking walls.

So, from the small amount of information I managed to retain, let's lynch Piggy and Sixty and the third partner can do whatever they're currently doing and it doesn't matter.

I hate this entire post. Not a single bit of it comes off as anything a pro-town player would say. This is exactly the type of wishy-washy, brooding gameplay I find scummy.

The hammer was very much not-random, though.

Vi gets so few chances to trollhammer.

We have our set of Townreads, we don't need the rest.

I’m really interested in knowing how coasting on that would get the town far through the game.

Also just in general every emotional outburst coming out of Soul seems forced and fake to me. Exactly the type of textrage I would expect from a scum player acting as outraged town. I mean its not even a clever attempt to shadow. And I don’t understand all that crap about snapping at someone badgering you when you haven’t read the thread... I mean who’s fault is that....

I want an answer to

that

, and if not, why. Do you think absta, Thor, Jesse are all Town?

This is really fun fishing. I think that would be amazing information for scum if Cerulean were a town player.

I know you added Jesse...but if he's worth adding so it's o'tay you are lynched, then why not mention him first time through?

Wait. Love this. But also hate when I’m reading through a thread and responding real time. Kind of confused why no one else thought that was pretty damning though. Wait just kidding thank you JT.

I wouldn’t mind hammering Sixty but right now I’d rather

Vote: N

I don't understand the argument between Soul and Justin, so I'm going to ignore it. I don't have a scumread on either of you, so I think it might be two townies arguing while the mafia sit back and do nothing.

Absta's didn't-read-the-rules-properly towntell attempt on the last page looks way too over the top, so for the moment, he can be the third scum we've been looking for. (The other two being Piggy and Sixty, of course.) I was starting to think the third could be Thor, because he hadn't called me scummy yet (he always seems to - okay, in the two completed games we have together he did), but he just voted for me so that's all okay.

I'd hammer Sixty, but I want them to come in and make some more incriminating posts and hopefully out their buddies for real.

None of this is real. I feel like I can just post any of N’s posts with a disclaimer “None of this is real.” I mean come on
1. The argument isn’t hard to understand and shouldn’t be ignored.
2. The quip about both being town reads is ridiculous I don’t even understand how someone could possibly have both Soul and JT as town reads.
3. absta’s general accidental lackadaisical play reads 100% town to me. And wait who are the other two scum? Cases please (and don’t pretend like you’ve already posted them).
4. Come on, you could go a million directions with a case on Thor and you’re not even going to attempt it mainly because you know it’ll either a) get blasted apart or b) he’s your scum partner.
5. Dooon’t even pretend like you care about anything Sixty has to say and if they’re as smart as I’m going to assume they are they wouldn’t out any of their buddies.

[JesseSheffield]

I mean there were two options. If you don't like one of them pick the other.

[JesseSheffield]

Explain how it makes any sense at all - I'm probably just being dumb.

If N’s not scum with you but N’s scum why would he try to make a case on you. I don’t think anybody’s successfully done that this game, most players have hinted they’re intimidated by you, and I don’t think N is the type of player who would be the first to try it. Therefore its just easier to throw away his read on you. Its also easy for him to do that if he’s scum WITH you. Because that would be in your guys’ best interest.

[JesseSheffield]

Also, I'll admit the theory of 'If N is scum he wouldn't want to suspect Thor unless Thor is also scum' is not exactly compelling programming.

I'm actually not even sure what you're trying to say here. But if N were scum he wouldn't... "suspect" you... there's only players who he can make targets out of. And if N were scum and you were town why would N try to start something against you? I can't think of a single possible way that would end in N's favor. And if you two were on a scum team why would N start something against you. Does anyone honestly believe N would be able to play this game well enough for it to not end poorly for one of you two?

So I'm really truly split 50/50 on which scenario I think is accurate. Providing, of course, N flips scum.

[JesseSheffield]

So...it's a null tell?

For you? Yes. I mean that post wasn't really about you. You kind of made it about you, but whatever I guess.

Your post is incredibly hypocritical and shows you're not actually reading the thread. (Not reading the thread is a null-tell, but when you're pretending you're on top of everything, it's not. Also the fact that you quoted my post 436 but clearly didn't read any of it is quite telling.)

This is absolutely ridiculous but if you want to say I'm scummy then just go ahead and say it. Build a case on it. Do something.

But this is exciting.

Vote: Soul

[JesseSheffield]

Yeah. I think Jessie would probably not think a counterwagon was viable, so don't find that scummy. Did Jessie find N scummy Day 1, though? That'd be at least somewhat interesting.

Not really. There wasn't really much for me to dissect from N on Day 1. N was really a null read for me until Day 2. I don't really think a counterwagon on Thor is viable at this moment.

All I know is Jesse doesn't find N scummy today - which is also an interesting switch.

That’s not accurate. But I only have one vote to share unfortunately.

[JesseSheffield]

What caused the shift then?

If you want a specific post.

I don't even remember anything Voided has done. But then again, I haven't been paying the best attention to this game. Right now, the only things I can remember are that Piggy did some really scummy shit early game (I can't remember anything she's done since, though, so I guess that's how she's slipped others' suspicions?), Sixty has made some horrible cases (seriously, the last time I saw a case that bad was by a cop who had a guilty result but didn't want to claim their role), Mehdi/blue-avatar/Thor had a big argument with lots of walls (I skimmed most of it), and there's too many damn hydras running around (and I can't keep them straight). Oh, and Justin Timberlake replaced in and made

more

fucking walls.

So, from the small amount of information I managed to retain, let's lynch Piggy and Sixty and the third partner can do whatever they're currently doing and it doesn't matter.

In any case, VOTE: Thor

This is also really fun and exciting.

Okay, I think you're scummy. Also, what is your case on me? If you're going to call that shit in #519 a case, you're worse as scum than Sixty.

VOTE: Jesse

OMGUS that was a really good one N.

[JesseSheffield]

I realize I’m not being too terribly helpful N, so I’ll help you out here. And I’m not going to bullet point them and get into “one of those” back-and-forths so follow along here.

If you’re going to say someone’s not reading the thread go out and prove it. If you can’t, don’t say it. It just makes you look dumb. Same goes to throwing the word hypocritical around. If you’re going to use it, prove it. Don’t be a lame-Empking knock-off. Tell me exactly what you don’t understand about the Soul/JT argument and I’d be happy to inform you of whatever link you’re missing. I’m missing how not having a scum read automatically makes someone a town read. That usually makes them a null read in my book (way to try to throw it back on me though. That’s really fun for players who are flailing). Me quoting your “scum reads” and asking “And wait who are your other two scum?” is a pretty sarcastic way of me wondering how you could have possibly gotten there since you know, usually reads have good solid reasonings behind them. I don’t believe your read on Thor is genuine. And I said legitimately nothing about how I felt about what Sixty had to say. I’d like to know how you got this:

5. If you don't care about what Sixty has to say, why didn't you hammer?

out of this:

5. Dooon’t even pretend like you care about anything Sixty has to say and if they’re as smart as I’m going to assume they are they wouldn’t out any of their buddies.

But actually like I’m genuinely interested. Cause that was a really funny leap of logic. And you can’t follow along then just say you can’t and drop it. If you can’t understand that’s just my problem but if you don’t stop talking then its just everyone’s problem.

[JesseSheffield]

I can see why people are attacking absta early on.

Why do you say so?

“Wow...are you a runner? Cuz if you are, you can probably run twice your normal distance after that stretch.” – I seriously fell from my chair.

I'd also like to say I AM a really good runner. Like really good. Just since everyone is so interested.

[JesseSheffield]

Because I can? I mean, the statement can stand by itself, but I actually meant that people who attacked him looked like they were scumhunting, etc, because I also would've done the same from what I saw as awkward posting.

I mean its just really interesting when players say that. I mean I know even I've personally thrown in that line as a scum player replacing in on someone who had previously been under attack at some point in the game. I don't know if I've ever come across a town player who says that.

N: I’m honestly over it.

[JesseSheffield]

And jesse pretty sure you're forgetting to reply to a question in OS's wall.

Wait I'm legitimately missing it somehow.

[JesseSheffield]

Oh okay got it I completely missed that question at the end twice, not really sure how. Anyways on JT I have a fairly solid town read at the moment. I wouldn't bet anything on it and its nowhere near the top of my list but I feel comfortable with the directions JT are heading. On Soul I have a leaning scum read. Again, its nowhere near the strongest scum read but two of my heavier scum reads have wagons on them right now and I'm really really interested in seeing who's going to pick which direction and why. I would feel fairly safe with a Soul lynch because they're a player I have some difficulty reading (apparently literally as well) but I feel like I'm really waiting for the meatier part of the day to approach.

[JesseSheffield]

Would you like me to eat that case alive now, or wait for you to expand on it and eat it alive then?

I, for one, would really like to see you try.

[JesseSheffield]

Jesse how can you're other two scum reads have wagons on them? There's 3 wagons and one is on us, second on thor, and 3rd on you. It can't be us or you so assuming thor is one where is the other wagoned scum read hiding?

For some reason I was thinking N had two votes on him. That's awkward considering I’m concurrently writing a paper on concussions and retrograde amnesia...

Lastly jesse I'm curious for what? What makes us leaning scum? Is it following JT, a different reason, something I'm forgetting, etc?

I didn’t find that angry little outburst at JT to be genuine. I think I might have even made a mention of that somewhere. That might have just been in my notes though, not sure. I also find a lot of the back-and-forths you have with players to be not so much a dicussion but a search for a hole to attack. I feel like when you’re interrogating a player you’re sniffing for something you can pounce on. Its just more so a gut feeling. You’re little just smack in the middle of my reads at #4.

Well, that's convenient.

I just don’t feel like anything you’re saying leads to a progressive discussion.

Vote: Thor

[JesseSheffield]

I feel like that post alone should explain why this lynch should happen.

Good luck trying to run a town again using this logic. Everyone knows your schtick know.

Which of the two possibilities do you think is more likely?

Soul: For example, that post made me feel really anxious when I first read it. Like it didn’t really matter what my response was going to be but that you were just waiting for an opportunity to tear something apart. Its now not-so-subtle paranoia that I’m usually good at hiding. But even per your last post I’m reading this:

\And as for the pounce on well want to expand on that?

and my first thought is why, so he can change something so he comes off less predatory? And then I remember I’m a rational MS player who doesn’t need to worry about those types of things.

[JesseSheffield]

Well, obviously I disagree. I personally think that what I have to say is quite important, especially since it has made you slip up a few times already. The fact that you want to cut off any discussion with me also points to the fact that you're worried you'll let something else slip.

Really because I'm pretty sure I've already expressed my distaste for run-on arguments.

I took "Don't pretend you care about what Sixty has to say" as you saying I should hammer. What were you saying there then? Looking at it again after you've said that's not what you mean, the only other way I can think of to interpret it is you thought Sixty was town.

I really don't know where you made that leap. I think its pretty clear that I meant you were being disingenuous about caring what anyone else had to say and you were just biding your time to hammer.

and then dropped it all to hop on the agreed big bus of the day today

When was that agreed upon? Pretty sure that didn't happen.

It will *totally* blow Jesse's mind though. He was so sold too. Poor guy.

Thor = Failed

Jesse is there a reason you didn't respond or comment on my Post 534 explaining how your reasoning should lead to N-Town and not N-Scum. You commented on Thors post above it and state that you still have a scum-read on N in Post 644 so clearly you haven't 'agreed' with me on how your logic is flawed so want to explain to me how I have it wrong? Also you said there was things in our catch up post you wanted to comment on - it never happened.

Oh I kind of just thought you were posting that you disagreed, here’s your mindset, over. It doesn’t really make sense to me and I actually don’t follow where you got that idea. My stance makes sense to me, it sounds like you comprehend it, but disagree. I pretty much thought that conversation was dead in the water. I also don’t know what I’m supposed to be commenting on from your catch-up post.

Jesse, can you post your notes for me?

Sure, on what?

Re: Jesse - Does that mean you believe there are two scum votes on the Sixty wagon?

I’m thinking its really unlikely.

[JesseSheffield]

Praying the game is over...

[JesseSheffield]

Jesse doesn't have notes because Jesse is scum - or haven't you noticed?

If there’s a Day 5 I would feel really sorry for/take malicious enjoyment out of watching a town fall to you again.

This doesn't make any sense? I don't think I could have made my post any clearer in fact about how your logic was flawed so you can't really just say "I disagree" towards it. Do you 1) Think N would attempt to mslynch and target Thor-Town as scum, answer you gave earlier was unlikely, right? 2) Think that N would attempt to buss and distance with Thor-Scum, answer you gave earlier was unlikely too, right? So if both 1 and 2 are unlikely then the more likely scenario would

have

to be that you thought N was town. Also really not getting your Thor vote, you said earlier in the game that he was the person scumhunting, questioning people and hunting for motivation the most, in fact you said that you think scum were 'buddying him' so the turn-around when he votes you and says that you 'fell' for his trap really isn't making sense whatsoever. Especially since before today the only scum-read was a connection to N which I explain above shouldn't make N scum and thus shouldn't make him scum due to it. Also very much do what Faraday said - we want the notes posted in full.

See I don’t get how you’re getting to the conclusion that would make N town. Or that I apparently would think that makes N town. That’s the link in your argument I’m completely missing. Point #1 is absolutely correct (although I’m not really sure if you’re understanding the motivation for why) but point #2 isn’t at all. Its like the complete opposite. My quote was:

4. Come on, you could go a million directions with a case on Thor and you’re not even going to attempt it mainly because you know it’ll either a) get blasted apart or b) he’s your scum partner.

N wouldn’t attempt to bus and distance, he just threw out a one liner and then let it drop. That’s a good way of dropping your scum partner’s name to potentially cover your ass later without doing any damage.

And earlier in the game I said that Thor is the “lead town” player. I can understand maybe you’re not quite following my vocabulary here but that means he’s yes, scumhunting, questioning people and hunting for motivation the most, but that by no means I ever thought Thor was town and I don’t believe I ever said so. I’m not sure why I would have, I don’t think he’s ever even been in my top 3 town reads. If you want to throw back that its an anti-town thing to do by not sharing my read on him then fine but I can guarantee you we’ve all done that as both town and scum. I mean really, how many votes have we seen out of the blue in this game alone.

None of his Post 244 looks like trying to gain a read on me, but trying to undermine my attack on Sixty.

For the record let it be known if I feel someone is trying to undermine me I’m low enough to reciprocate.

Sooo... you did still think Sixty was town at that stage? If you're going to say that I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say, you could perhaps point out what you actually meant to say? That would be helpful. I'm not the only one that thought this is what you were trying to say:

Meh, I was waffling on them. I’m not afraid to be wrong but when I’m on the fence on someone unless I feel like its necessary I’m usually not going to say so.

[JesseSheffield]

._. no notes?

Definitely not. Let's be real here me dumping my notes gives everyone who wants to read the game an insight into the core of my game. Which would be really stupid. Also, do you understand know why I did not at all understand what you were attempting to argue with me?

[JesseSheffield]

lol Because I didn't post from the point of being asking until after Piggy was hammered... As for the reasoning being BS that's fine but you have to admit it fits with my in-game meta.

[JesseSheffield]

Not really? If you're town you should be willing to post your notes to help people read you as town. Considering I literally asked you 10 minutes ago and you ignored it too, then welp yah.

Oh please posting notes is just an act to look pro-town. And considering everyone's acting like the game's over I just felt like doing the same.

This is you being hypocritical again (you said you wanted me to point that out every time).

Actually I think I said prove it. Which you’ve still epically failed to do.

N wouldn’t attempt to bus and distance, he just threw out a one liner and then let it drop. That’s a good way of dropping your scum partner’s name to potentially cover your ass later without doing any damage.

This is you being hypocritical again (you said you wanted me to point that out every time).

I'd hammer Sixty, but I want them to come in and make some more incriminating posts and hopefully out their buddies for real.

I wouldn’t mind hammering Sixty but right now I’d rather

Vote: N

Totally different!

Oh wait you’re going to try it! The first quote you posted was me pointing out that you threw out a one liner about why Thor could potentially maybe possibly be scum but maybe not. Your quote is saying you’re holding the hammer because you want them to try and out their scum buddies (which I called fake). Then my second quote is me saying hammering Sixty sounds okay but I’d rather pursue N.

Legitimately none of those have to do/contradict each other.

[JesseSheffield]

Oh wait you’re going to try it! The first quote you posted was me pointing out that you threw out a one liner about why Thor could potentially maybe possibly be scum but maybe not. Your quote is saying you’re holding the hammer because you want them to try and out their scum buddies (which I called fake). Then my second quote is me saying hammering Sixty sounds okay but I’d rather pursue N.

Legitimately none of those have to do/contradict each other.

No, this is bullshit. How is saying I have a townread on Thor attempting to "bus and distance"?

Oh my gosh. I am literally trying so hard to not virtually throw up all over you. Let me try to put this as nicely as possible.

I NEVER SAID THAT YOU ******* ****** ***** ** ****

I mean seriously?! What is wrong with you and JT?! Can you guys not READ?!

4. Come on, you could go a million directions with a case on Thor and you’re not even going to attempt it mainly because you know it’ll either a) get blasted apart or b) he’s your scum partner.

Scum/N on Town/Thor (a): You can’t attack Thor because he and the rest of the players will blow your case to smithereens.
Scum/N on Scum/Thor (b): You can’t attack Thor because you’re not a good enough player to successfully play out a “N attacks Thor, Thor attacks N, there’s a strong back and forth before it dies without either getting lynched.” Its basically saying YOU CAN’T BUS AND DISTANCE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT A COMPETENT ENOUGH PLAYER TO PULL IT OFF. Where me saying you're bussing and distancing from Thor is LITERALLY beyond my comprehension.

I mean I’m so frustrated because I have literally combed my ISO at least five or six times looking to see if I was missing something I might have stated in a different post but you are legitimately pulling it out your behind. I honestly don’t know how I can spell it out more clearly for you two. I mean like seriously this time, what is wrong with you.

[JesseSheffield]

VOTE: Jesse

lol I'm sorry that you both can't read and reason properly but that's not my issue.

Vote: N

There's a part of me that thinks Jessie's just fucking awful and would have posted some coblled together notes as scum.

Why because you just got proved wrong so that's your fallback? Alright JT, that's pretty cool.

[JesseSheffield]

Um proved wrong about Piggy? I don't see how they'd be related? I mean being wrong about You/Piggy scumteam doesn't make you town? Plus it was only a part of me!

Anyway back to ignoring this game for today (that's working well!)

Oh no I mean that ridiculous "N wouldn't bus/distance Thor" argument you were attempting to have with me and then conveniently dropped.

[JesseSheffield]

If I conveniently dropped it does that mean I'm scum?

(That wasn't me, that was Regfan. Duh? )

It tells me you're not super interested in pro-town investigations. And if we're looking at N/Thor, N/Jesse scumteams it throws N/JT into the mix for me.

[JesseSheffield]

If you say so! I haven't read any of you/regfan's argument back and forth.

Considering you posed a question in response to a post I had about regfan/I's argument I just assumed you were following along. I don't really know why you wouldn't have been.

[JesseSheffield]

[quote="In post 1002AFAICT N thinks you're accusing him of bussing/distancing Thor and you're saying he wouldn't? Do I have the gist right? Is there anything more to it?[/quote]

I mean no you don't really have the gist of it right but hey, neither of you do so that's at least consistent!

[JesseSheffield]

JT: Yeah actually you did 100% get it. I was thrown off a little bit for a second by your wording (my end, not yours) but yeah, post 1007 was completely accurate. I mean I actually don't think I could make it even clearer for N but I'm going to attempt it.

Are you seriously going to continue with this? Post 912, you said "N wouldn’t attempt to bus and distance, he just threw out a one liner and then let it drop." Post 922, I thought you were referring to the fact that I claimed intent to hammer Sixty, but in post 935, you said you were actually talking about what I said about Thor (that I had a townread on him). So if "N wouldn’t attempt to bus and distance, he just threw out a one liner and then let it drop" was referring to Thor, how is 936 invalid? How is it not what you said?
(Hint: you thought I was attempting to bus and distance Thor is exactly what you said.)

Oh my God. What is wrong with you. You just said it yourself right here how are you not understanding this.

(Hint: you thought I was attempting to bus and distance Thor is exactly what you said.)

N wouldn’t attempt to bus and distance

, he just threw out a one liner and then let it drop. That’s a good way of dropping your scum partner’s name to potentially cover your ass later without doing any damage.

I mean I don’t get it, are you thrown off by the comma? Are you reading the word “wouldn’t” as “would”? And this:

No, this is bullshit. How is saying I have a townread on Thor attempting to "bus and distance"?

is invalid because I nowhere, not once, not ever said you were attempting to bus and distance. Let me repeat.

N wouldn’t attempt to bus and distance

, he just threw out a one liner and then let it drop. That’s a good way of dropping your scum partner’s name to potentially cover your ass later without doing any damage.

N wouldn’t attempt to bus and distance

, he just threw out a one liner and then let it drop.

N wouldn’t attempt to bus and distance

[JesseSheffield]

Okay, I know that was supposed to clear stuff up, Jesse; bit it makes it worse. What's the rest of that quote (912) about if not accusing me of bussing and distancing Thor?

I don't understand how it could possibly make it worse. It is SO simple. You said you had a town read on Thor... Last time I checked that’s not bussing. I don’t think I ever said that was bussing. Apparently you’re under the impression I think that’s bussing (where you got that inane idea I have zero idea). I mean is this somehow confusing to you:

That’s a good way of dropping your scum partner’s name to potentially cover your ass later without doing any damage.

because I’m fairly confident this:

I was starting to think the third could be Thor, because he hadn't called me scummy yet (he always seems to - okay, in the two completed games we have together he did), but he just voted for me so that's all okay.

is not bussing and distancing. Which is exactly what I DIDN’T say you were doing in post 912.

I’m honestly trying to follow your logic here because its driving me insane but I mean... there’s zero...

Soul: Compiling those reads right now.

[JesseSheffield]

First of all I’d like to say if scum is comprised of two of the three Cerulean/Soul/Deadpool you’re probably going to win this game, good job.

JT: JT makes me really wary. If I’m thinking logically unless the scum team is Thor/N there’s really not many options for N to be on a scum team with. As funny as this might sound I really don’t like JT butting in on N/I’s argument. I mean its really SUCH a stupid, illogical argument and I just don’t see how any of the town benefits by its continuance. On the inside, its just really frustrating to watch N not comprehend/misquote over and over and over again. But on the outside, I just don’t get what you can possibly extract from it by interjecting. I don’t know why JT let himself get goaded back into it by me. Cerulean did a really nice job deflecting that on Day 1 which is where I get such a solid town read on them. I also just don’t really see much pro-town motivation behind JT’s posting.

Thor: I’ll say I am much more familiar with his scum game than his town game. And unfortunately I read through Reverse Mafia first and just found a lot more of Thor town hunting than scum hunting so that wasn’t the best place to start. But I think what gets me the most about Thor in this game is I see absolutely no regard for town safety/well-being. I mean his voting track record is even worse than mine. But as wrong as my logic was I at least attempted to explain myself as to why my reads were the way they were. I don’t know if its arrogance, ego, whatever but your reads/cases/etc don’t mean crap if no one is listening and its clear after Day 1 no one is really listening to Thor. I do think if Thor were town he’s smart enough to adjust his play to work in favor of the town. I can’t honestly believe if Thor were town he’d be dead set on lynching me right now. If I go today he’s going tomorrow and scum for sure win. That might not be very helpful to anyone else but this is my read not case so I’m allowed to think that way.

In short, he wouldn’t be playing such a reckless game if he were town. And really if I’m going to be smart lynching Thor today is a much better idea than N, which I’ve probably let get out of sight because N is so frustrating to play with.

Vote: Thor

Jesse, what is your read of JT? I know you've read the posts I asked this in.

I was busy ignoring any of your attempts to communicate with me until you understood the simplest of things I was saying. Until you dropped that inane ridiculousness I wasn’t so worried about answering anything you had to say.

[JesseSheffield]

(Idk I can see scum pulling the oh-here-let's-just-vote-this-other-dude-who-isn't-my-partner-after-arguing-with-my-partner-and-pushing-on-him but that's somewhat stupid logic and he reads overall genuine.)

Do you think scum would pull that after what happened to Piggy in the manner of like, minutes.

[JesseSheffield]

Your play right now looks like you're trying to distract from the Jesse wagon.

As opposed to the Thor wagon?

[JesseSheffield]

It's hardly a wagon if there's only 1 vote. Also, Deadpool's trying to distract

onto

the Thor wagon. He doesn't care which of Thor or I are voted for, as long as it's not you.

Your right that's my bad

Vote: Thor