Open 556: Fire and Ice (Over)
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Tr1ckster Mafia Scum
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Tr1ckster Mafia Scum
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Like in games with an SK where a big scumtell is worrying mostly about the SK?In post 11, Moonlight wrote:But seriously, I don't like how NM asked "fire or ice", scum is scum. Icouldsee him doing it on purpose to get a discussion going and I assume that votes won't count yet, sooo... yeah.-
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I would.In post 15, Zephyrus wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if Moonlight is scum again
It's definitely a start for not even being in D1 yet. I think I know where the first Bandwagon is going.In post 18, Moonlight wrote:Very similar to that, yeah.
Maybe I'm reading too much into it but it's a start.
The last time I played this setup we caught scum doing something similar to what NM started with, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if he is scum.-
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Why not?
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This.In post 32, Moonlight wrote:Yay, I finally get to play with mastin.
I approve of this wagon and I don't understand why Jasmine is wary of it, some explanation would be cool.
VOTE: Not_Mafia
Also I forgot to say I'm very much happy to play with mastin. Well... as long as she's town.-
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It was.In post 35, Moonlight wrote:Now I'm wondering if your comment on mastin was distancing. Why wouldn't you be happy if she's scum?
I always distance from the vets. Didn't you play in Mewbie 1477?
If she's scum then I think we're in trouble. I want to work with her, not against her, silly. Don't you? Why would you want to work against mastin? O_o-
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You didn't think my Nacho vote in 1477 was distancing?In post 35, Moonlight wrote:Now I'm wondering if your comment on mastin was distancing. Why wouldn't you be happy if she's scum?-
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We just played a game with him as scum. You'll know if and when he's scum.In post 40, Randomnamechange wrote:I'm worried that Moonlight is scum because he played such a strong game first time round.
That said... why are you bringing up doubt of Moonlight alone? There are four people on the N_M wagon... two of them you've played with before, why Moonlight?-
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Could be freudian slip.In post 43, Not_Mafia wrote:It was an innocuous RVS joke post, I don't understand how you see this as alignment indicative
Or it could be that you're joking about what's to come this game. Either way, prove us wrong. Don't tell us why you're town. Show us why. Scumhunt the stuffing out of the mafia.. and both mafia teams, not one specifically.-
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In post 47, Randomnamechange wrote:
Oooh BurnIn post 46, Moonlight wrote:If it was a joke, just treat your wagon as the punchline.
Burn = Fire
Scum.-
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No. But it's relatively close.In post 49, Moonlight wrote:In that game I was part of an informed minority. Is the situation the same here?
In both situations you are required to not reveal that you know something that everyone else doesn't.
Can you keep a secret from me?-
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No, I don't think it will. You've already made a minor townslip.. well.. a minor Moonlight townslip.In post 51, Moonlight wrote:I'd like to believe so, but this isn't the game where I'll find that out.-
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Why would you discount it like that?In post 54, tman2nd wrote:Oh, I didn't realize a wagon would appear on my RVS vote. Not to sure about the logic for it, but it's an RVS wagon, so whatever.
Why would you keep your vote on a wagon you don't agree with?-
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Tr1ckster
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Cool.
Initial reads:
Scum:
tman2 - why question a wagon and mark it as worthless and keep your vote on it?
Not_Mafia - why worry about who's which mafia?
Null:
finglove - please explain rvs vote.
YurikoJasmine - questions wagon. why?
Town:
Moonlight - seems townie, asks good questions. typical moonlight game start confidence.
randomidget - notes good things-
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Fire mafia doesn't care about finding fire mafia, it only wants to find ice mafia and vise versa.In post 58, Not_Mafia wrote:You've yet to actually explain why my question was alignment indicative
It doesn't matter to town which mafia a player is a part of.. at least not right now. Scum is scum is scum is food for the noose.-
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Agreed. I like town's footing this game. This is a nice place to start, actually. We can get some good discussion going on this.In post 60, Moonlight wrote:@Tricks: I agree with your scumreads and I can't believe that people are calling this a random voting stage when there's a 4-vote wagon.
The fact that he doesn't seem to know why it would be a scumtell makes me strongly doubt it's the latter.@Not_Mafia: Your question could have easily been phrased "Are you scum?". It wasn't, which shows that you're looking at scum as two teams of scum instead of just scum. The way I see it, either you're interested in one team more than the other, or you're a Townie who wanted to give that impression to get us out of RVS ASAP.-
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No, because that doesn't say you're town, it just says you might not be scum. And if you were fire mafia, of course you would ask about fire mafia as well as ice mafia because it would be a major scum tell. You actuallyIn post 62, Not_Mafia wrote:Let's say I am scum. Why would I phrase my question that way, if Trickster is scum then I'd either know which scum he is, if he was my partner, or if he wasn't, which scum team he would have to be on if he was scum. The distinction of which scum is which is far important to town.
See how I can construct an argument saying the opposite. You can wifom and twist what I said 6 ways of Sunday but it will still be a random RVS joke post.can'ttwist it any way you want.
Why is wagoning bad?I don't know whether to vote Moonlight for badly twisting innocuous RVS posts in to scum tells, Finglove for wagoning with a naked vote or Trickster for sheeping.
Eenie meenie miny moonlight
VOTE: Moonlight
I didn't sheep, I posted my own reasons.
I don't like your OMGUS vote.-
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In post 63, Tr1ckster wrote:
No, because that doesn't say you're town, it just says you might not be scum. And if you were fire mafia, of course you would ask about fire mafia as well as ice mafia because it would be a major scum tellIn post 62, Not_Mafia wrote:Let's say I am scum. Why would I phrase my question that way, if Trickster is scum then I'd either know which scum he is, if he was my partner, or if he wasn't, which scum team he would have to be on if he was scum. The distinction of which scum is which is far important to town.
See how I can construct an argument saying the opposite. You can wifom and twist what I said 6 ways of Sunday but it will still be a random RVS joke post.if you didn't. You actuallycan'ttwist it any way you want.
Why is wagoning bad?I don't know whether to vote Moonlight for badly twisting innocuous RVS posts in to scum tells, Finglove for wagoning with a naked vote or Trickster for sheeping.
Eenie meenie miny moonlight
VOTE: Moonlight
I didn't sheep, I posted my own reasons.
I don't like your OMGUS vote.
EBWOP-
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No. A town read (to me) is someone who is town because of pro-town play. A "not scum" read to me is someone who is not scum due to lack of scumminess.In post 66, Not_Mafia wrote:If you're going to use that standard then there's no such thing as a towny post or a townread, just "might not be scum" posts and "might not be scum reads".
Either way, your reasoning doesn't defend yourself or support the fact that you're not scum well enough for me to not consider you lynch-worthy.
Ok. Ask him to explain his vote then. And vote for him instead of Moonlight, who has done nothing to be worthy of your vote.In post 66, Not_Mafia wrote:I said him wagoning with a naked vote was bad.-
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Why are you upset that I'm defending my strongest town read from thrown together OMGUS arguments?In post 69, Not_Mafia wrote:Why are you so concerned with Moonlight being townread?-
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Give me a good reason he shouldn't be townread.In post 69, Not_Mafia wrote:Why are you so concerned with Moonlight being townread?-
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In post 72, Not_Mafia wrote:You know what my reasons for voting him areSpoiler:
A mixture of "eenie meenie miny moe", an OMGUS vote, and a claim about an argument that you have yet to disprove?
Yeah... not buying it.
You still don't have a good reason to vote for him. The only one that has potential is the claim that his argument is a stretch, and if anyone's argument here is a stretch, it's yours. I've seen several scum playing this setup on another sight caught making the slip you made or a similar slip. Your argument doesn't back you up enough or disprove his argument in any way. You have yet to even prove it's a stretch.
Because of this, I've marked you down as having a random reason, an knee-jerk reaction reason, and a disproven reason respectively, none of which say he's scum, and all of which seem to say you're scum.-
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I disagree.In post 74, Paschendale wrote:Sorry about inactivity. There's some kinks in getting the hydra set up. Mastin is V/LA until Monday, so I'll start and we'll collect everything in a quoted post by the hydra once we get it sorted out. These are Pasch thoughts alone, not discussed with Mastin.
YurikoJasmine's vote looks like the first legit one. There really doesn't seem to be any justification for voting N_M, and the people doing so know it.
Because I'd still like to get as much out of today as possible. I don't like early lynches.Trickster, why are you afraid of derphammering if you're so sure that N_M is scum to run him close to a lynch on page two?
How good would you say you are at playing town D1?Because he doesn't agree with it and doesn't think it warrants a lynch, duh.
Have you played this setup before?I feel like this is a stretch. A big stretch. The question was essentially a comment on the theme. And unless you expected someone to actually answer the question directly, it couldn't possibly gain scum any knowledge. There is no scum-benefiting way for that question to resolve. It's just banter and I don't see it as alignment indicative at all.
Maybe so.Trickster and Moonlight definitely look town, but I think they're barking up the wrong tree. I think Tman's reaction is much more suspect than N_M's question, and the Moonlight vote is just dumb.
Agreed.I wouldn't give Midget at townread. Of four posts, only one is content, and it's a weak meta comment.
Finglove also needs to give reasons for his votes and comment on how things are unfolding. Pasch does not like naked votes.
VOTE: Tman
PEdit:
@Baezu
Finally. Someone with solid reasoning.-
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I was outed cop in your game. My decisions held more weight. Of course I'd be less confident.In post 80, Baezu wrote:
I disagree. He seems way more confident and town-leader in this game than he was in the game I modded. I don't think learning can be applied that quickly so I'm tending to lean scum on him. Which game are you referring to, RM?In post 53, Randomnamechange wrote:Tricks is a playing a very similar game to the game he played when he was town. So yeah.
He's talking about this game:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=38643
Where I played as VT.-
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I only use that RQS for Newbie games. It doesn't apply as much or as well here.In post 82, Baezu wrote:This actually helps prove my point. What happened to your RQS? If you're town you wouldn't mind garnering that attention but as scum, you prob want to maintain a lower profile
And you don't think I've already garnered plenty of attention? I would say I'm the center at the moment.-
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In post 84, The_Ascended wrote:That was a comment on how sure you seem to be on so little information.
I'll take these two responses as "very bad."
I'm good at calling out bad wagons.How good would you say you are at playing town D1?
Save this kind of play for D2. Or later in D1.
I disagree with you. How often have you played this setup?I have, as scum. While you seem to think that the question demonstrated the mindset that N_M was coming from, I don't think it was anything more than a page one comment without meaning. But in what weird universe would anyone answer such a question? The only way that it helps scum to ask that is if someone answers. And if it doesn't really help scum to ask it, then I don't see the scum-motivation, and I don't see the scum-mindset that you do. I don't think one would have to be scum to essentially ask the common opening question "are you scum", but tailor it to the specific theme of the game.
Don't be so high and mighty. It's disrespectful and all it's going to do is piss off your allies and make them not want to work with you.-
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Agree with this.In post 87, Moonlight wrote:Interesting posts by Pasch and Baezu. I agree with the former on everything except for barking up the wrong tree; that's not how I see it. I agree that it's a reachy case, I just don't see that as something that can't be used. I approve of the tman vote though.
Yes. It's quite nice to think you're town again...As for Baezu, I think Tricks gets a bit more confident when he believes I'm Town. We've noticed we work off each other pretty well.
But what does this mean?he believes I'm Town.-
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I'm wondering why you added the word "believes"... You are town, are you not?In post 91, Moonlight wrote:It means what it says. Past experience shows me you get more confident when you believe I'm Town.
Do you think it means something else, or are you wondering how I'm reading you?-
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Ah. Sorry, yes. That makes sense.In post 93, Moonlight wrote:Let's see. If I had said instead "when I'm Town", it would have been either an effort to sell I'm Town when I'm not, or honesty. Now that I said "when you believe I'm Town", it either implies that it's something you can't know or... nope, that's about it.
I think it's time for a bastardization of a Nick Fury quote:
"Until such time as Moonlight is proven scum (in my mind, at least), I will act as if he is town aligned."
PEdit:
*sigh*
Ah well...
I guess I'll go after the naked voter.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: finglove-
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I'd agree with most of this.In post 104, Moonlight wrote:Time for me to share my early reads. In the order they have posted:
NM puzzles me. He cast a random vote on mastin and ignored his wagon for a while, until he didn't. His vote on me is a lot like Boro's on Tricks, scumreading someone for trying too hard to get things going.
Zeph hasn't caught up, so no read.
Tricks gives me the same feeling he gave me in our first game. I have seen him play scum, but never early, only after replacing in. So far this seems very much like his Town play.
Boro seems to consider reachy cases a scumtell and that's something I don't agree with, but that tells me nothing about his alignment.
tman's posts rub me the wrong way. His vote on NM seemed to be random, so he didn't really make anything of the pregame posts. After noticing the wagon, he showed apathy, which I can't say I appreciate.
midget is... strange. I've only played one game with him and it was our first, so his playstyle might have developed, but he seems much bolder and confident than I remember. Not sure what that means, but it's noteworthy.
Jasmine doesn't like wagons and I want to know why before I decide what to make of her.
Pasch's posts appeal to me, and even though I disagree with his viewpoint on reachy cases I can understand it. His defense of NM makes me townread him, because I don't see any scum motivation for him to disapprove of the wagon... unless those two are scum together. =P
Baezu seems to rely on meta and to dislike buddying, which I don't know what to make of.
4 Heads is going to be a headache (ba dum tsh!). I hate when the heads disagree like that.
To sum up: townread on Tricks and Pasch, scumread on tman, null on everyone else but I'm paying NM, midget and Jasmine extra attention.
I'd like to add that my eye is on Boro and Fin, the former for... a rather.. interesting argument against me, and the latter for a naked vote. Both are null at the moment, however.
However, I would like to say I think midget hasn't really changed much at all, but you're better at noticing this sort of thing than I.
I'm not willing to give Pasch a town read yet, but that might simply be because he's too straightforward for me to read, I think. I'll trust you on this one until I believe otherwise.
4 Heads is going to be a headache just reading their posts.. >.< Although I like seeing their thought processes. Makes me more comfortable with them and I'll give them a town read for now.-
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I have to say...
I feel like Baezu isn't thinking for herself.. she's relying too much on past play. I don't like it.
Actually, I don't like the amount of dependence on past play present in the game at the moment. From pretty much all directions. It's a new game. People can change drastically from game to game. A lot of these comments about meta have been made off of a single game. Do you know how inaccurate your results are likely to be if you base your conclusions off of a sample size of one? It's as if the moderators picked a game at random from a type of setup and based their analysis of that setup off of that single game. If they picked the one game with a perfect town win they might decide that setup was horribly imbalanced and decide to never run it again. That setup could be perfectly balanced, there were just horrible scum or excellent town in that one specific game.
In statistics an analysis is not admittable unless you have at least 10. 10. 1 is far from enough. Please stop basing your reads off of a single game.-
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Actually, that's not what he was trying to do:In post 110, The_Ascended wrote:You'd think that trying to get things going would be a good thing.
I think it's pretty interesting, actually, how he's developed a tunnel of me...In post 43, Not_Mafia wrote:It was an innocuous RVS joke post,
Because while his first vote was for mastin and then he moved it to Moonlight, the player he's been mainly addressing and the player he made joke posts about being scum (here,here, and here) are all about me. Why hasn't he voted for me yet?-
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Two things:In post 113, tman2nd wrote:I think he's addressed you the most because you've been addressing him more than Moonlight has. Also, those joke votes where in RVS.
Please don't answer for someone I question (but feel free to say you agree with the question being asked) because it offers the person I'm asking the question to an easy way out. Among other things.
The other thing is that he never actually voted for me. Three times he set me up for a joke vote or an RVS vote... but he never actually voted for me. He got to the point of calling me scum at one point and still didn't vote for me.-
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I'm not misrepping at all.In post 118, BoroPhil wrote:it didn't change, I added something. by trying to misrep that you aren't doing anything to convince me you aren't scum.
Spoiler:
Your reason changed. You should have simply restated your reasons for it in the first place.
Either way, your reasoning is... well... not.
I guess I can say this now because the pressure wagon on NM diminished...
It was RVS. A lot of the drill on NM was purposeful in order to get discussion going. Of course we weren't ready for an NM lynch, but by tunneling him we got a lot of discussion moving and so on and so forth.
I think what a lot of people don't understand is that at this point in D1, stretch arguments and pressure wagons are actuallygoodfor town, because they result in discussion over people's alignment and debates that significance of certain actions that helps town get on the same page. I think too many people take Mafia as a straight-forward game - it's not. There is a lot of room for lying in mafia as town, especially on D1. For the same reason people said NM's scummy question might have been town-motivated (it wasn't, he said so himself) what I and Moonlight did was town-motivated.
Something I think people need to take a better look at - is what is happening right now going to help town in the long run? Also stop depending so strongly on common tells. Not every townie is going to play the same game and not every goon is going to play the same game. One of the things about mafia is that there is no "correct" way to play mafia- there are dozens of different styles and techniques and so on and so forth. Too many people are using general tells across the board - what people need to learn why the current tells are tells. Why? And then apply that "why" to the person they're trying to read. Does the reasoning match up? Or is the person doing something for different reasons than those that would make the scum tell a scum tell.
Anyways.. sorry about that.
TL; DR
Mafia is not a straightforward game, stop applying tells to everyone and figure out the reasoning behind the tells and see if it lines up with the reasons that the player you're trying to read is committing the tell.
/end rant-
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Why aren't you voting one of your other two scumreads from earlier?In post 134, Not_Mafia wrote:Scumgame
Some formatting stuff got ruined in a forum change unfortunately, so VCs are pretty unreadable
UNVOTE: Moonlight
VOTE: Finglove
I've exhausted my vote on Moonlight-
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Oops. My mistake. >.<In post 136, Not_Mafia wrote:Finglove was one of those-
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This is pinging hard.In post 150, tman2nd wrote:Just as a note, I finding it harder to find scumreads in this game so far.
What trick thing? O_oIn post 152, Baezu wrote:I'm willing to let the trick thing rest for now but IGMEOY still-
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What case? There was never a case against me, just a couple baseless suspicions and RVS votes. O_oIn post 154, Baezu wrote:I'm willing to get off of your case for now :p-
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*raises both eyebrows*In post 156, Baezu wrote:I honestly don't see N_M as mafia because of the early interaction atm. Fin has not done anything I think is scummy. Tman would be the scummiest of the three that have been talked most about but I think scum is still hiding atm. Ima try to look for scum in the people who have not been at the forefront bc that's where I think they are atm-
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Exactly.In post 158, Moonlight wrote:I have mixed feelings about going after lurkers. The nature of the setup and the plurality lynch rule give scum even more reason to not want to stand out, but at the same time it's something scum might use and call it "scumhunting". >_>
Baezu's train of thought is something that crossed my mind though (scum not being in the active players at the moment), so I want to see what she does about it.
I'll have my eye on Baezu's posts... and lack of posts.-
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- Joined: January 6, 2014
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Tr1ckster Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1017
- Joined: January 6, 2014
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Tr1ckster Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1017
- Joined: January 6, 2014
And that's bad during RVS because...?In post 174, BoroPhil wrote:you are misrepping. my reason didn't change.
my reason is: you were focussing on something rubbish as a reason to go after someone.
Moonlight asked why I was focussing on you and not him.
The next post explained it.
my reason remains: you were focussing on something rubbish as a reason to go after someone.-
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Tr1ckster Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1017
- Joined: January 6, 2014
What? How do I get towncred if I'm scum for doing it? O_oIn post 179, Not_Mafia wrote:There's a difference between jokey/rubbish reasons in RVS and latching on to something rubbish to go 'omg I got us out of RVS towncred please' with.
No.In post 181, BoroPhil wrote:sorry, was that an apology for accusing me of changing my reason?
Fact? Facts are true.In post 180, Not_Mafia wrote:And Trickster that doesn't change the fact that you misrepped his case-
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Tr1ckster Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1017
- Joined: January 6, 2014
Your argument here is I'm scum for doing it because I look like town for doing it.In post 179, Not_Mafia wrote:There's a difference between jokey/rubbish reasons in RVS and latching on to something rubbish to go 'omg I got us out of RVS towncred please' with.
What?-
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Tr1ckster Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1017
- Joined: January 6, 2014
Sorry. I'm a self-centered and hot-headed. I don't apologize for my mistakes.In post 181, BoroPhil wrote:sorry, was that an apology for accusing me of changing my reason?
It means I'm asking you why it's bad to vote for someone for "rubbish" reasons during RVS.what does your reply even mean here?-
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Tr1ckster Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1017
- Joined: January 6, 2014
Did he say he thought you were scum?In post 191, BoroPhil wrote:so hang on Moonlight, you are saying that you think I'm scum because of a football avatar?-
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Tr1ckster Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1017
- Joined: January 6, 2014
I believe it does. We are thinking of the same player, are we not?In post 196, Moonlight wrote:Question for Tricks: does Boro's play this game remind you of the same play it reminds me? It's almost like history repeating itself in a way.
I just want to say I think it's very interesting his play changed from last game to this...
Or did it really change? I don't know.
I certainly hope this one doesn't end in him getting reported, though. Maybe we should make him read the game? You know, the whole thing about knowing history so you don't repeat it?
I think NM is.. Interesting. Very interesting. For defending him so blatantly.
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