Open 556: Fire and Ice (Over)

[BoroPhil]

God I hope Moonlight is scum again.

[BoroPhil]

not really (I wasn't totally convinced you were scum, but I am a bit of a tunnel freak), I just hope you scumclaim again

[BoroPhil]

Last time I played this (as Icescum iirc) I was doing great and then the other scum faction NKed me thinking I was megatown. gutted.

[BoroPhil]

I'm with Bez here, Tricky is trying far too hard. The 'town shouldn't worry about whether they are going after fire/ice' is such an easy reason to go after someone, especially when it probably didn't mean anything. It's going after daft things, and making them bigger than they are so you look like you are contributing. What Moony did in the last game.

VOTE: Trick

[BoroPhil]

because he's trying to buddy you. started at 14 and has continued.

also, early read list. always a bad sign.

[BoroPhil]

@Boro

Read my first town game with Moonlight. I buddied hard.

Also...
Why did your reason for voting for me change between your two posts? I don't like that.

it didn't change, I added something. by trying to misrep that you aren't doing anything to convince me you aren't scum.

[BoroPhil]

I'm with Bez here, Tricky is trying far too hard. The 'town shouldn't worry about whether they are going after fire/ice' is such an easy reason to go after someone, especially when it probably didn't mean anything. It's going after daft things, and making them bigger than they are so you look like you are contributing. What Moony did in the last game.

I think it's worked pretty well so far. There's been plenty of discussion, and I think Moon and Trickster are looking pretty town. If you think we should be discussing something else, please provide a topic.

because he's trying to buddy you. started at 14 and has continued.

Active town players tend to agree with each other. Until day 3 or so when they start ripping each other's heads off.

also, early read list. always a bad sign.

Please justify this assertion.

Hello there, Pasche.

;3

Oh this'll be fun. ^_^ Also, my first hydra!

NM puzzles me. He cast a random vote on mastin and ignored his wagon for a while, until he didn't. His vote on me is a lot like Boro's on Tricks, scumreading someone for trying too hard to get things going.

You'd think that trying to get things going would be a good thing.

Tricks gives me the same feeling he gave me in our first game. I have seen him play scum, but never early, only after replacing in. So far this seems very much like his Town play.

What do you think of him without the influence of past games?

Boro seems to consider reachy cases a scumtell and that's something I don't agree with, but that tells me nothing about his alignment.

tman's posts rub me the wrong way. His vote on NM seemed to be random, so he didn't really make anything of the pregame posts. After noticing the wagon, he showed apathy, which I can't say I appreciate.

Agreed on both counts.

Baezu seems to rely on meta and to dislike buddying, which I don't know what to make of.

I really don't like over-reliance on meta. It assumes that people have far more concrete tells than they really do. Plus it's difficult to check, and leads to "trust me" moments. I do not trust so easily.

Scum is either dumb and on Tr1ckster wagon or smart and off of it. All smart players on Tr1ckster wagon we consider town for the moment, all dumb players on Tr1ckster wagon give us a scumread.

There are two votes on Trickster and they're both pretty dumb. Why is Baezu a better vote than Boro?

Actually, I don't like the amount of dependence on past play present in the game at the moment. From pretty much all directions. It's a new game. People can change drastically from game to game. A lot of these comments about meta have been made off of a single game. Do you know how inaccurate your results are likely to be if you base your conclusions off of a sample size of one? It's as if the moderators picked a game at random from a type of setup and based their analysis of that setup off of that single game. If they picked the one game with a perfect town win they might decide that setup was horribly imbalanced and decide to never run it again. That setup could be perfectly balanced, there were just horrible scum or excellent town in that one specific game.

In statistics an analysis is not admittable unless you have at least 10. 10. 1 is far from enough. Please stop basing your reads off of a single game.

QFT

I'll discuss signatures for our posts when Mastin gets back. Until Monday, all posts are by Pasch.

I think we should be discussing "Is Tricky scum"

[BoroPhil]

it didn't change, I added something. by trying to misrep that you aren't doing anything to convince me you aren't scum.

I'm not misrepping at all.

Spoiler:

I'm with Bez here, Tricky is trying far too hard. The 'town shouldn't worry about whether they are going after fire/ice' is such an easy reason to go after someone, especially when it probably didn't mean anything. It's going after daft things, and making them bigger than they are so you look like you are contributing. What Moony did in the last game.

VOTE: Trick

Wait, why does this apply to Tricks and not me? I'm the one who pointed out first, so I don't understand why you're not after me if you think it's scummy. o_O

because he's trying to buddy you. started at 14 and has continued.

also, early read list. always a bad sign.

Your reason changed. You should have simply restated your reasons for it in the first place.

Either way, your reasoning is... well... not.

I guess I can say this now because the pressure wagon on NM diminished...

It was RVS. A lot of the drill on NM was purposeful in order to get discussion going. Of course we weren't ready for an NM lynch, but by tunneling him we got a lot of discussion moving and so on and so forth.

I think what a lot of people don't understand is that at this point in D1, stretch arguments and pressure wagons are actually

good

for town, because they result in discussion over people's alignment and debates that significance of certain actions that helps town get on the same page. I think too many people take Mafia as a straight-forward game - it's not. There is a lot of room for lying in mafia as town, especially on D1. For the same reason people said NM's scummy question might have been town-motivated (it wasn't, he said so himself) what I and Moonlight did was town-motivated.

Something I think people need to take a better look at - is what is happening right now going to help town in the long run? Also stop depending so strongly on common tells. Not every townie is going to play the same game and not every goon is going to play the same game. One of the things about mafia is that there is no "correct" way to play mafia- there are dozens of different styles and techniques and so on and so forth. Too many people are using general tells across the board - what people need to learn why the current tells are tells. Why? And then apply that "why" to the person they're trying to read. Does the reasoning match up? Or is the person doing something for different reasons than those that would make the scum tell a scum tell.

Anyways.. sorry about that.

TL; DR

Mafia is not a straightforward game, stop applying tells to everyone and figure out the reasoning behind the tells and see if it lines up with the reasons that the player you're trying to read is committing the tell.

/end rant

you are misrepping. my reason didn't change.

my reason is: you were focussing on something rubbish as a reason to go after someone.

Moonlight asked why I was focussing on you and not him.

The next post explained it.

my reason remains: you were focussing on something rubbish as a reason to go after someone.

[BoroPhil]

you are misrepping. my reason didn't change.

my reason is: you were focussing on something rubbish as a reason to go after someone.

Moonlight asked why I was focussing on you and not him.

The next post explained it.

my reason remains: you were focussing on something rubbish as a reason to go after someone.

And that's bad during RVS because...?

sorry, was that an apology for accusing me of changing my reason?

what does your reply even mean here?

[BoroPhil]

oh noes, the multi-coloured guy is voting for me. SHIT.

[BoroPhil]

Boro, can you please explain why using "something rubbish" is a scumtell? Walk me through what's going through your head when you encounter something like that.

If, for example, I vote you now and my provided reasoning is that football/soccer avatars are only used by scum, does that mean I'm scum?

well yeah?

[BoroPhil]

yeah and the misrepping has way overtaken the rubbish reasoning as the main reason for voting Tricky here tbqh.

[BoroPhil]

so hang on Moonlight, you are saying that you think I'm scum because of a football avatar?

[BoroPhil]

Tricky, rubbish reasons are rubbish reasons are rubbish reasons. why does the fact they are early on make a difference?

[BoroPhil]

Honestly, Tr1ckster's riding something out for towncred of RVS is very towny in my opinion. As town it is often in me to skip RVS, which sets some players off and makes me the first wagon, starting us on good information by page 2, and then notifying the town that it is indeed a town thing to do. I don't think that's scummy at all, as it reflects my town play a lot.

BoroPhil, notice the R in RVS? The part that says RANDOM? The part where

THERE IS ALWAYS SILLY REASONS FOR VOTING PEOPLE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE GAME?

Or did you somehow fucking miss that while you had your head up your ass?

well you seem like a pleasant fellow. I'm going to enjoy playing with you.

they weren't silly were they? they were deadly serious? there was nothing random about it.

[BoroPhil]

so hang on Moonlight, you are saying that you think I'm scum because of a football avatar?

Did he say he thought you were scum?

well he does appear to be voting for me?

[BoroPhil]

Question for Tricks: does Boro's play this game remind you of the same play it reminds me? It's almost like history repeating itself in a way.

To everyone else: Why is building a case based on bad reasoning a scumtell? Are you scumhunting or are you just after players whose play you disagree with? Are you just hoping that those players just happen to be scum?

You don't always catch scum for the right reasons.

and if you'll recall I was spot on then.

[BoroPhil]

so hang on Moonlight, you are saying that you think I'm scum because of a football avatar?

Did he say he thought you were scum?

well he does appear to be voting for me?

He's voting you because you're trying to make someone look scummy for something that isn't scummy at all.

He meant I want quotes of them "trying to build a case off of it", please, not whatever THAT is.

are you sure about that? his vote seems to be linked to the question about football avatars and making a scum case on

him

you sound very angry. are you sure you are reading properly?

[BoroPhil]

I can't possibly imagine a world where:

a) Moonlight could be obvscum 2 games running

and

b) Moonlight and Tricky are a scum team blatantly defending each other

BUT YOU NEVER KNOW

actually Moon, I don't think you are scum. but I do think you are far too giddy about Tricky's attempts to be pally with you.

[BoroPhil]

Sure, let's fucking lynch anyone we don't like instead of lynching who we believe is more likely to flip scum.

First Boro sees "scumminess" in things he doesn't like, now Zeph. I'm starting to doubt my read on Boro as a result, because I didn't want to think of the possibility that a Townie would want to lynch someone just out of dislike, but I guess I have to consider it unless both Boro and Zeph are scum.

What do I even do in this situation... I'm totally against policy lynches but this is starting to get insane.

I'll sleep on it, but not before begging any Townie that reads this to carefully reconsider what separates Town and scum. Forget tells, forget what you think you know, break the game down to its very core and understand. I don't give a shit if you read this as me using AtE to earn towncred and whatnot, that's fine. Just don't throw the game, please.

Are you saying I'm voting for Tricky because I don't like him, rather than because I think he is scummy?

[BoroPhil]

-Tman's not liking the Not_Mafia wagon but keeping his vote there is really annoying, and I do not like his most recent post, specifically his reasoning for keeping his vote on N_M. If you do not think someone is suspicious, then there is no need to keep your vote on them. There's no rule saying you have to have a vote on someone at all times. You simply could've unvoted and left it at that.

So with that, I'll

VOTE: Tman2nd

Is there a rule saying I have to unvote?

Haha, no there is not, but the fact that you

out right said

that you don't like the wagon, but

still

kept your vote on it is hella scummy.

you are misrepping. my reason didn't change.

my reason is: you were focussing on something rubbish as a reason to go after someone.

Moonlight asked why I was focussing on you and not him.

The next post explained it.

my reason remains: you were focussing on something rubbish as a reason to go after someone.

And that's bad during RVS because...?

sorry, was that an apology for accusing me of changing my reason?

what does your reply even mean here?

...

it's a question.

his reply is a question.

Boro, can you please explain why using "something rubbish" is a scumtell? Walk me through what's going through your head when you encounter something like that.

If, for example, I vote you now and my provided reasoning is that football/soccer avatars are only used by scum, does that mean I'm scum?

well yeah?

Are you fucking serious?

so hang on Moonlight, you are saying that you think I'm scum because of a football avatar?

Did he say he thought you were scum?

well he does appear to be voting for me?

Votes have more uses than just to lynch.

so, if he vote for me for having a football avatar, you don't think that's a bit off?

these uses would be?

[BoroPhil]

Are you saying I'm voting for Tricky because I don't like him, rather than because I think he is scummy?

I am saying that when you encounter a play you don't like or don't understand, you make no effort to try to look at it from a Town perspective, you simply toss it in a scum pile.

This is dangerous in my opinion, because you're unlikely to work with anyone you disagree with, and I need players that disagree with me.

Basically, I don't find you necessarily scummy, I just find your approach very anti-Town and I lack a proper scum read, so I'm waiting to form one on you.

You're asking how votes can be used in other ways. Haven't you ever thought of voting someone just to get a read on his reaction?

so you don't find me scummy, but you are voting for me? how is that IN ANY WAY pro-town?

[BoroPhil]

Are you saying I'm voting for Tricky because I don't like him, rather than because I think he is scummy?

I am saying that when you encounter a play you don't like or don't understand, you make no effort to try to look at it from a Town perspective, you simply toss it in a scum pile.

This is dangerous in my opinion, because you're unlikely to work with anyone you disagree with, and I need players that disagree with me.

Basically, I don't find you necessarily scummy, I just find your approach very anti-Town and I lack a proper scum read, so I'm waiting to form one on you.

You're asking how votes can be used in other ways. Haven't you ever thought of voting someone just to get a read on his reaction?

you'll find I'm pretty straight up. If I vote for someone, it's because they are scummy. I don't mess around and play games.

you are confusing (deliberately or otherwise) 'not liking' with 'finding scummy'

I'm voting for Tricky because he is scummy, not because I don't like him.

If I was voting for the person I least liked, it would be that obnoxious multi-headed thing.

[BoroPhil]

I wasn't even aware half of them were playing.

[BoroPhil]

especially Not voting. has he posted?

[BoroPhil]

"Notice how boro and zeph both had the same opening post. What do other people think that means? "

we probably are on the same team then. scum partners generally make the same opening post so everyone spots them easily.

"and seem too agreeable with a lot of things"

what does this actually mean?

You were quite supportive of what I was saying earlier Bez. now I've picked up a couple of votes, you've seen the way the wind is blowing and fancy hopping on?

added to your rather panicked post earlier about being the easy wagon, you've shot quite high up my ScumPile

[BoroPhil]

and yeah that is one hell of an about turn on tricky.

While we are guessing scumteams how about Tricky/Bez? Or what Zeph said.

[BoroPhil]

no, changing your reads isn't, and that isn't what I was saying. so don't put words in my mouth please.

but changing your reads so dramatically certainly is.

[BoroPhil]

and in fact that isn't 'alignment indicative' as you put it, but it certainly sets off alarm bells

[BoroPhil]

Tricky, you realise you aren't conftown in this game, yeah?

[BoroPhil]

Pressuring people (those you think are scum?)
getting reads (on those you think are scum?)
RVS votes (I think we are past that now)

so in other words, you vote for those you think are scum?

and tbqh I have no idea where you are coming from with Moon's question. If someone votes for me and says it's because of my avatar, how can that not be scummy? It's certainly not pro-town. Regardless of stage, except RVS which we weren't/aren't at.

[BoroPhil]

oh and idk - thanks for the definition. though I'm sure you knew that wasn't what I was after. where exactly have I been 'agreeable' and what does it mean in the context of this game?

[BoroPhil]

@ Pasch - like I said at 188, his attempted misrepping of me at 107 (and he did it to not as well?) wasn't good either. I think his overall play is scummy. He's trying hard to seem town, but town that does not make him.

[BoroPhil]

I think this is where I am at the moment

Safe townreads: The Ascended, Not_Mafia, Zeph,

leaning town: Moonlight, random, tman (quite like the last two but could do with contributing more)

idk?: idk (really don't like either of their big posts, but nothing to suggest they are scum I don't think)

didn't know they were playing: Yuriko, Finglove

scummy: Baezu, 4 heads, Tricky

[BoroPhil]

give me examples of each of those please Tricky.

[BoroPhil]

and by calling me a loose cannon I think you betray the fact you know I am town.

[BoroPhil]

give me examples of each of those please Tricky.

I rest my case.

and by calling me a loose cannon I think you betray the fact you know I am town.

You can be a loose cannon to your scum team as well. Hanzo was.

you mean you can't give examples?

[BoroPhil]

I really don't see how I'm being anti-town? I seem to be the only one prepared to challenge Tricky, whereas the rest of you are happy to go along with his bullshit.

If that is anti-town, so be it.

[BoroPhil]

I mean, wtf?

Moonlight, take your head out of Tricky's arse, step back, and actually try and look objectively at what he is posting?

Leaving all of the other stuff aside from the start, he has now misrepped me and now is voting for me with reasons he can't substantiate and his only responses are 'rest my case' and 'oh it would be a waste of time'. how covenient!

[BoroPhil]

Tbf, 'rest of you' was wrong because it doesn't apply to all.

[BoroPhil]

'oh Moon, I agree with you on everything else"

my god.

[BoroPhil]

I believe you were scumreading Tricks in Baezu's game before he claimed. Am I wrong?

yes, you are. I'd posted once.

[BoroPhil]

If Zeph is scum, he's being pretty bad scum isn't he?

I know it's a cliche that town shouldn't worry about their image, but some townies do. I wouldn't expect scum to so obviously fret about it.

Also, would you really make yourself a target by voting for a hydra just for being a hydra? That was always going to draw criticism.

[BoroPhil]

OK, now 4 heads is threatening to policy lynch. Something they were complaining about.

but was it different heads? that's what makes it impossible to follow. I have no problems with hydras

per se

, but it's ridiculous that they are allowed to post like this.

[BoroPhil]

sorry, so it's

2 heads are the same person
1 head is someone else
1 head isn't real

?

[BoroPhil]

It is relevant because they can't use "it was the other head" as a defense, and Viomi used to have Chrimi listed as her "troll account" in her sig and Chrimi used to have Viomoi listed as her "serious alt" in her Chrimi sig, so this is not a matter of mental health or identity. It's just trolling.

exactly. a recent game I was in, there was a hydra featuring ETL (Drunken Lies), and they pretended to argue and disagree between each other, which gave them an easy route to mislynching.

[BoroPhil]

well fair enough, if there is more to it than I realised, I apologise.

it is hard to follow though. I thought the general idea with hydras was they worked together outside of the thread and presented their collective thoughts in the thread.

[BoroPhil]

Can I just say that, regardless of any ethics involving a Hydra, I think 4 heads is scum.
The_Ascended, is that mastin or pasch in the last post?

I agree.

[BoroPhil]

posting her catch up as she reads the thread. what on earth is wrong with that?

hopefully the two heads will come to some sort of common conclusion at the end of it.

here's an idea Tricky. Why don't you wait until they are finished before butting in?

[BoroPhil]

I was really baffled for a moment there about who had replaced Slainte.

[BoroPhil]

I'm glad someone else has picked up on the 'agreeable' thing.

Bez never explained it, although we did have an extremely useful definiton of the word agreeable from idk at 312

[BoroPhil]

...The problem with them is that these things are essentially things that you can recite from a Book of Mafia. (Especially if you read up on Mastin MD. ) As in, he's basically saying things that he can say as either alignment, that while looking good...don't actually do any good. His delivery of them doesn't have any passion behind them; it sounds like exactly what I said: a cold, dispassionate pre-prepared (well, probably not, but close enough) speech, given to address the crowd in order to gain their favor, that costs him nothing and gives him a gain.

Like, it seriously feels as if he's just quoting from random MD threads of mine, thinking that saying my advice inside the game thread will look pro-town. (And it does...look pro-town. Doesn't actually mean it IS pro-town; pro-town usage is to incorporate the advice, give specific directions, to basically have passion behind the words. And he has none.)

This is ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON.

very well said.

[BoroPhil]

haha, Tricky lecturing other people on misrepping. superb.

[BoroPhil]

and it's not really buddying is it? we've barely interacted (unlike you and Moon). we just seem to be arriving at similar conclusions and are noticing similar things. and it's not just us, is it? I think not is on the same wavelength. possibly some others.

[BoroPhil]

honestly Moonlight, that 369 means absolutely nothing.

he could easily claim doc later if he wanted to

[BoroPhil]

but he hasn't really has he? he's just created a nifty little catchphrase. he hasn't said 'I am a VT'

Unless he wants to clarify? Usually I'd discourage claiming as it would reduce the doc pool for scum to aim at, but I'm very confident either faction won't be aiming for him.

Equally my 'townslip' could have easily been fabricated by myself.

[BoroPhil]

I did a quick ISO on Tricks, looking for mentions of Zeph. This sticks out so badly...

Then vote for tman.

We'll deal with Zeph in the morning.

You're upset because he voted for you for illegitimate reasons, I think you need to unvote him, take a break from the game, discuss with the other for heads, and get back into it.

Trust me. If you do this, people will take your vote more seriously. Like a vote that's been thought through and makes sense. Right now it looks like an OMGUS vote. And I'm not dealing with OMGUS votes.

So if you're town and you're legitimately scumhunting and you want to be taken seriously, unvote him for now and you can vote for him later after you've spoken with the other heads and you can come back with real reasons other than the one that he voted for you. Ok?

The bold part requires knowledge that Zeph will still be alive.

I'm beginning to seriously see a Zeph/Tricks team. Fuck.

Tbh, I think the fact

he

assumes he will still be alive is more telling.

[BoroPhil]

he

in fact, if tricky is so town, wouldn't he expect to be dead tonight? especially as we have 2 scumshots.

[BoroPhil]

yeah, there is an element of it looks like he can see the mood is changing re Tricky, and wants to be on the right side. but it looks genuine to me.

[BoroPhil]

V/la until Monday/Tuesday (it's a bank holiday weekend over here).

I didn't like NMs pregame chat and it seemed as good a place for a first vote as any. When I'm at a computer I'll do a solid read-through and work out if that's still the best place for my vote to be.

should be back tomorrow

[BoroPhil]

If you do manage to lynch me, go after boro next, alright?

This is the sort of thing I would say if I was scum.

Would you describe this as ATF Tricky? I think I would.

[BoroPhil]

who do we contact?

[BoroPhil]

that was fun.

[BoroPhil]

are we getting a Yuriko replacement?

[BoroPhil]

Main reasons Tricky is scum:

- stating obvious and cliched things to seem town. as per 96 and Ascended at 437. "Book of Mafia" really hits the nail on the head.
- buddied Moonlight from the start and got upset when Moonlight saw the light, so to speak
- enjoys misrepping. me at 107 and not at 184
- trying to lead town, talking as if confirmed town. almost as if he wants to emphasise to everyone how town he is
- voted for me and gave a big list of reasons at 325 then refused to expand on any of them.

I mean it would be a massive waste of time.

337

- then tries to spread misrep and buddying mud to others at 440

458 and the atf posts that followed is simply classic scum found out and trying desperately to get others (Moon in particular) to feel sorry for him

The reaction to Ascended's catch up at 407 and 416 was bad as well. didn't want to let them finish, and then threw down an omgus vote.

[BoroPhil]

Cool.

Can everyone who's got their vote on me post a good reason they think I'm scum?

And everyone who doesn't have their vote on me post a good reason they think I'm town?

Anyone who's null on me, please pick a side and stick to it.

And if you can't find a good reason to think I'm scum, please unvote me. The reverse goes for if you can't think of a good reason I'm town.

Actually.. now that I think about it...

Could everyone do that for everyone they've got their vote on? I'll start.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: BoroPhil

Because he makes little to no sense to me, and I can't understand his train of thought. He seems to be misunderstanding things on purpose, unwilling to work with town, and overall stubborn.

what can't you understand?
what have I misunderstood on purpose?
who am I unwilling to work with? (would others agree with this? I seem to be getting on quite well with a few of you)
what have I been stubborn about?

pretty sure that can all be summarised as 'He is voting for me' but feel free to clarify. Or will there be no point just like last time?

[BoroPhil]

My reasons for my vote on Boro are basically the same as Tricks, and I could see scum playing this game in this setup.
I don't know why I don't have my vote on Trickster. Maybe it's because my scumreads don't really fit with Tr1ckster. Also, I think a Boro flip would be quite informative.

exactly how would my lynch be informative?

[BoroPhil]

that's another cliche from the 'Book of Mafia' btw randomidget

[BoroPhil]

go on?

[BoroPhil]

I'd agree, but let's face it a mod-enforced break while he hunts for a new mod isn't exactly regular. who is the mod now? llama?

[BoroPhil]

oh and idk - thanks for the definition. though I'm sure you knew that wasn't what I was after. where exactly have I been 'agreeable' and what does it mean in the context of this game?

idk?

[BoroPhil]

I kinda like this post. I still (at least at this point in reading through the thread) think that Tr1ckster is town and that you aren't, but this seems like a town-motivated post to me.

so you think my post is town motivated but you don't think I am town? how does that work exactly?

and what exactly don't you like about my reads, and what are yours?

[BoroPhil]

yeah, randomidget is very much sitting on the fence with his last few posts. 'oh my god I'm struggling so hard to read x' or 'oh it's so difficult' are quite often scumlines.

re lurkers, they are an easy vote on day one, and a good choice perhaps if there aren't any outstanding alternatives from the active posters. but I think Tricky has proven himself to be particularly scummy.

[BoroPhil]

Please can people actually explain why they think im scum? It would be nice if people bothered to build decent cases.

is this a joke?

you say you want to lynch me for my flip and don't bother to explain why this would be informative?

and then slate others for not building decent cases?

[BoroPhil]

To be fair, I'm on the fence myself myself when it comes to midget. I've only played with him once and scumread him for much of that game, he ended up being Town.

I wouldn't say he is fence-sitting though. He sheeped Tricks in 541, so he's not on the fence when it comes to him. I appreciate that he has a decent read on him, even if I don't agree with it. >_>

midget, do you keep scumreading 4 Heads and Boro? Any other thoughts?

558 though, he is trying to say he is wrestling with scum/town tricks and then the same for you.

I'm really struggling to read those two.

It seems forced.

[BoroPhil]

Tricky it is quite incredible that you accuse not of baseless claims and ask for examples when you are happy to fire off baseless claims at me and call it a waste of time when asked to provide examples. you have pointedly refused to interact with me for the past few pages.

[BoroPhil]

Um. Does anyone else see the irony of this situation?

No, N_M, I will not do for you the thing you refuse to do for me.

I want every player in this game to tell me how this is not scummy. At absolute best, it's anti-town.

and from the player who said of me:

unwilling to work with town,

540

The hypocrisy is staggering.

[BoroPhil]

Trickster, in isolation.

Where have you answered these?

Because he makes little to no sense to me, and I can't understand his train of thought. He seems to be misunderstanding things on purpose, unwilling to work with town, and overall stubborn.

You don't even have to copy it out again. Just link me to the post(s).

[BoroPhil]

about a month

[BoroPhil]

can someone who isn't me or not comment on this?

[BoroPhil]

and preferably one of the people not voting for Tricky

[BoroPhil]

everything me and not have been saying about Tricky refusing to answer things. basically the whole of the last two pages.

[BoroPhil]

I always feel a bit out of the loop with the cliques on this site.

link to academy thread?

[BoroPhil]

I've found it.

fuck me, I didn't know I was playing with the mafiascum elite.

[BoroPhil]

Trickster, in isolation.

Where have you answered these?

Because he makes little to no sense to me, and I can't understand his train of thought. He seems to be misunderstanding things on purpose, unwilling to work with town, and overall stubborn.

You don't even have to copy it out again. Just link me to the post(s).

Tricky.

[BoroPhil]

My reads list, from town to scum:

Leaning town: Not_Mafia, Moonlight

Weak lean town: Boro, Baezu

Null: 4 Heads, The_Ascended (I find hydras pretty hard to read, but nothing in their posts has particularly alarmed me yet)

Leaning scum: idk (lurking), randommidget (lack of conviction in scumhunting), Yuriko (lurking, even taking V/LA into consideration)

Scumreads: Zephyrus, Tr1ckster (see previous post)

(Replacing out: tman2nd)

random semi-touched on this, but why leave out tman? even if he is replacing out, your read is still valid

[BoroPhil]

My reads list, from town to scum:

Leaning town: Not_Mafia, Moonlight

Weak lean town: Boro, Baezu

Null: 4 Heads, The_Ascended (I find hydras pretty hard to read, but nothing in their posts has particularly alarmed me yet)

Leaning scum: idk (lurking), randommidget (lack of conviction in scumhunting), Yuriko (lurking, even taking V/LA into consideration)

Scumreads: Zephyrus, Tr1ckster (see previous post)

(Replacing out: tman2nd)

Sorry, but what does lack of conviction to scumhunting mean? Please can you show your examples. Similarly to The_Ascended, I start to get into my stride once we have one or two flips. I am starting to look at what certain flips would mean, but cant provide anything concrete yet. Also, it is slightly odd that you have more scum reads than town reads. And I think that your reads are very...conformist. If I wanted to stay low and not bring attention to myself those are very similar to the reads I would give.

I also quite like this from random. While Finglove's last couple of posts have been good, I see what you mean about conformist. but that could be just the ol'paranoia kicking in. But your questioning of it is solid.

[BoroPhil]

Elite? Is there some objective scale that measures "player skill" that I'm not aware of?

I treat mastin as I'd treat anyone I've never played with before. Reputation means nothing, and I say this because I had quite the rep myself on another site and it meant nothing to me there as well. Experience doesn't tell you how much one has learned from it.

My interest in her comes purely from how she treats the game, I am not familiar with how she plays and I'm curious to experience that.

/end derail

Regarding Tricks: many of his recent posts bring me sooo close to waffling on my read on him. If I squint my eyes hard enough, I can almost make out a stubborn Townie that refuses to deal with the situation that his play is being widely scumread.

But a large part of that is me

wanting

to townread him: bias. No matter how hard I try to, I cannot excuse his huge AtE after I voted him. He is aware of how waffly I get in such situations, and I believe he wanted to capitalize on that weakness.

going back to this - by elite I suppose I meant 'royalty'. I don't really pay much attention to reputations, so I wouldn't have known mastin from the next person, but that's quite a hefty reputation they have. I suppose I'm pleased that we seem to be agreeing on everything - but then she is surely good enough to totally fake that.

I'd be lying if I said I didn't have doubts about Tricky - and it's not uncommon for active townies to fight it out on day one while scum sit back. but he is doing absolutely nothing to convince us that he isn't scum, and surely if he was TownTricky he would be desperate to. and it's not like it's just coming from me. It's me, Ascended, not and to a lesser extent Moon all saying the same things.

not has reposted a ton of things, Tricky went missing for a bit, comes back and continues to ignore it.

[BoroPhil]

reads so far

Baezu
Not_Mafia
BoroPhil
randomidget/Moonlight
Moonlight/randomidget (about equally on the town half)
4 Heads of Insanity (honestly, about equal to them, too)
YurikoJasmine
Finglove
Zephyrus
tman2nd
idk
Tr1ckster

Something like this. But it doesn't feel right. Best I have right now, off of my casual catch-up. I'll need to do more later.

*thinks about mastin's rambling stuff*

Spoiler: His thoughts

I suppose how I'm being perceived would matter to me if it was by someone I consider important. The community as a whole is not something I consider important enough, not yet at least. Maybe that'll change, but for the moment I can put myself in those shoes by imagining myself not meeting the expectations of someone whose play I look up to.

My own reads are similar...ish.

10 -
9 -
8 - The_Ascended
7 - NM & Boro
6 - Baezu
5 - 4 Heads & midget
4 - Finglove & tman
3 - idk & Jasmine
2 - Zeph
1 - Tricks
0 -

0 = Lynch this no matter what, 10 = Never, ever, ever lynch this, 1-9 = Everything in-between.

Strange. I usually have a 9 by this point and don't have that many people below 5. Lurking in this one makes me more uneasy than usual too.

Zeph's last post puzzles me. I can't tell if it's distancing or if these two can't be scum together (because who would notice their buddy's posts so late?).

My reads list, from town to scum:

Leaning town: Not_Mafia, Moonlight

Weak lean town: Boro, Baezu

Null: 4 Heads, The_Ascended (I find hydras pretty hard to read, but nothing in their posts has particularly alarmed me yet)

Leaning scum: idk (lurking), randommidget (lack of conviction in scumhunting), Yuriko (lurking, even taking V/LA into consideration)

Scumreads: Zephyrus, Tr1ckster (see previous post)

(Replacing out: tman2nd)

My reads list is (from towniest to scummiest):

The ascended
Moonlight
Borophil
NotMafia
Fin glove
4heads
Tman
Idk
Jasmine
Midget
Zeph
Tricks

Minor correction*

Zephyrus
BoroPhil
Not Mafia
idk
RandomMidget
Tr1ckster
tman2nd
Finglove
Moonlight
YurikoJasmine
The_Ascended
4 Heads of Insanity
Baezu

[BoroPhil]

Baezu seems to be pretty hard to read. Top of one list, bottom of another and in a middle in another.

General consensus that Not and myself are town

Baezu misses random out. Is this significant? Otherwise, random ends up in the middle generally

Tricky, idk and to a lesser extent tman tend to be seen as scummy. except for Zeph.

In fact, Zeph's reads are way off everyone elses

[BoroPhil]

As for me, I think I am:

Not
Ascended
Finglove
Moonlight
Random
tman
Zeph
Yuriko
Baezu
4heads
idk
Tricky

[BoroPhil]

and in fact random is in Baezu's list, so ignore that

[BoroPhil]

quite odd really, they came in quite aggressively and seemed quite keen on the game, then just disappeared.

[BoroPhil]

it almost makes him seem more town to me. If he was scum, wouldn't he be trying to make his reads more like the norm?

[BoroPhil]

I agree, it would be nice to have some narrative next to the reads. and that applies to everyone. I know it's a bit of a chore sometimes but it really does help and I always find it is a great way to distinguish town from scum.

[BoroPhil]

is there any chance that Moon and Tricky are on the same team? That would actually be hilarious.

[BoroPhil]

Moon certainly isn't the most pro-town person here though.

Not is comfortably top of that list, with Ascended probably next.

Moon only jumped on Tricky at a relatively late stage, though his posts since then have been generally good, if a tad emotional at times.

My comment was generally non-serious, though there was a small element of seriousness about it - some of Moonlight's anger does seem a bit for show.

Moon - will you and Tricky still be best buds after this? You seemed quite pally at the start.

[BoroPhil]

idk would certainly be my first choice tomorrow

[BoroPhil]

and Moon, I'm happy enough you are town. but no-one is ever cleared, and it doesn't hurt to talk through possibilities.

[BoroPhil]

It has been that time for a while tbqh

[BoroPhil]

I am here, but I seem to be having problems logging in.

Initial thoughts:

a) Tricky was town. WTF
b) Scum took out the best two players by far. Pretty lucky not to go for the same one though.
c) Finglove following Tricky's dying wishes is odd considering how badly he played (though if he was sick I guess I can understand him not wanting to put the effort in)
d) But what is odder is he picks out a Tricky post from 470 (May 5) and ignores Tricky's last post - 739, 13 days later. Surely Fingy, if you are happy to 'happy to follow a dead mans suggestion for now', why not his last post?
e) Tricky did look scummy, but before we speedlynch Zeph, surely worth noting that he was actually the only person confidently townreading him. So maybe we should listen to what he has to say.

oh and Fingy, in response to 783 - I've had a scum read on 4 Heads for most of the game - see 322 for example.

[BoroPhil]

reads so far

Baezu
Not_Mafia
BoroPhil
randomidget/Moonlight
Moonlight/randomidget (about equally on the town half)
4 Heads of Insanity (honestly, about equal to them, too)
YurikoJasmine
Finglove
Zephyrus
tman2nd
idk
Tr1ckster

Something like this. But it doesn't feel right. Best I have right now, off of my casual catch-up. I'll need to do more later.

*thinks about mastin's rambling stuff*

Spoiler: His thoughts

I suppose how I'm being perceived would matter to me if it was by someone I consider important. The community as a whole is not something I consider important enough, not yet at least. Maybe that'll change, but for the moment I can put myself in those shoes by imagining myself not meeting the expectations of someone whose play I look up to.

My own reads are similar...ish.

10 -
9 -
8 - The_Ascended
7 - NM & Boro
6 - Baezu
5 - 4 Heads & midget
4 - Finglove & tman
3 - idk & Jasmine
2 - Zeph
1 - Tricks
0 -

0 = Lynch this no matter what, 10 = Never, ever, ever lynch this, 1-9 = Everything in-between.

Strange. I usually have a 9 by this point and don't have that many people below 5. Lurking in this one makes me more uneasy than usual too.

Zeph's last post puzzles me. I can't tell if it's distancing or if these two can't be scum together (because who would notice their buddy's posts so late?).

My reads list, from town to scum:

Leaning town: Not_Mafia, Moonlight

Weak lean town: Boro, Baezu

Null: 4 Heads, The_Ascended (I find hydras pretty hard to read, but nothing in their posts has particularly alarmed me yet)

Leaning scum: idk (lurking), randommidget (lack of conviction in scumhunting), Yuriko (lurking, even taking V/LA into consideration)

Scumreads: Zephyrus, Tr1ckster (see previous post)

(Replacing out: tman2nd)

My reads list is (from towniest to scummiest):

The ascended
Moonlight
Borophil
NotMafia
Fin glove
4heads
Tman
Idk
Jasmine
Midget
Zeph
Tricks

Minor correction*

Zephyrus
BoroPhil
Not Mafia
idk
RandomMidget
Tr1ckster
tman2nd
Finglove
Moonlight
YurikoJasmine
The_Ascended
4 Heads of Insanity
Baezu

As for me, I think I am:

Not
Ascended
Finglove
Moonlight
Random
tman
Zeph
Yuriko
Baezu
4heads
idk
Tricky

I think these are worth posting again for reference.

[BoroPhil]

Baezu has flip flopped around a lot - and his vote above is pretty indicative of that. Votes for you, then votes with you? I think he swapped his reads on me yesterday as well.

[BoroPhil]

Fine. I'm happy with a Zeph wagon, but still seriously don't trust idk. Also, it is probably good to remember that most people were suspicious of Yuriko, so NS's slot is already suspicious
UNVOTE: idk
VOTE: Zephyrus

I think this is the key point for NS - it's scummy as it stands based on Yuriko. and jumping on today's most popular wagon without anything else isn't exactly endearing them to me.

reads list NS?

[BoroPhil]

Okay that's a town post there by idk. I hadn't realized the full extent of that Baezu flipflopflorp.

Also

I'll probably be V/LA for two days

.

I'm glad you and random saw it as a town post, because that's exactly as I read it. It just had that feel. However, idk was pretty scummy day one, so I'd say it gives me more assurance about you two than him.

but I was happy enough with random as town anyway, and tman to a lesser extent.

[BoroPhil]

Initial thoughts:

a) Tricky was town. WTF
b) Scum took out the best two players by far. Pretty lucky not to go for the same one though.
c) Finglove following Tricky's dying wishes is odd considering how badly he played (though if he was sick I guess I can understand him not wanting to put the effort in)
d) But what is odder is he picks out a Tricky post from 470 (May 5) and ignores Tricky's last post - 739, 13 days later. Surely Fingy, if you are happy to 'happy to follow a dead mans suggestion for now', why not his last post?
e) Tricky did look scummy, but before we speedlynch Zeph, surely worth noting that he was actually the only person confidently townreading him. So maybe we should listen to what he has to say.

oh and Fingy, in response to 783 - I've had a scum read on 4 Heads for most of the game - see 322 for example.

a) This seems like a genuine reaction from someone who thought for sure Tricky was scum.
b) Why do you feel like you have to address the NK? Unless you're trying to figure out who would've wanted them dead, I see no reason to bring that up.
c)

Other name that springs out is BoroPhil. Tricks and Ascended got worried about him at various points, and I was scumreading him a while back as Glidder pointed out. Let me just iso him...

He stated that both Tricks

and

Ascended had a scumread on Boro, and also said he had a similar read on him earlier in the game. So it wasn't just Tricky.
d) Surely, Boro, if you had read, he was following not one, but

two

dead men's wishes, as well as his own wish. Just sayin'.
e) I agree that speedlynching someone isn't a good idea, but take a look at Zeph's post. At the risk of sounding quite rude, I think he's either scum or has one of the worst town plays I have ever seen.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So far there have been no posts from 4 Heads of Insanity or Zephyrus today. Let's get some activity from ya!

Now that I'm out of school, I should be able to make more posts. Sorry for the low activity Day 1!

in response to these:

b) didn't serve any purpose, just wanted to highlight that I think town was quite unfortunate last night.
c/d) I don't think Ascended had a scumread on me? and he was directly quoting Tricky, which was odd when Tricky's last wish was to vote for Moonlight. Why did Finglove deliberately select an earlier wish to lynch me?
e) he could very easily be disinterested/bad. having said that, I don't think Zeph would be the worst lynch today, but there are better. Baezu springs to mind.

[BoroPhil]

Zeph is at L-1, and I doubt all five other town players are voting for him yet (unless all of the lurkers are scum), so I'm pretty sure some of the votes on that wagon are from scum. Of course, with two scum teams (argh) we can't be sure that it clears Zeph, and tbh we're almost certainly going to need scum-help on this lynch. I won't claim intent because we're without a Mod, who will presumably replace Zeph on arrival, but I will later unless the replacement has some very convincing arguments.

why so keen to hammer so early in the day?

[BoroPhil]

oh and random -in response to 823 I picked up the flipflop of Baezu at 817. He was also at it on day one:

Leaning scum on me at 282 including picking my teammate.

and by 671 with no obvious journey inbetween I am 3rd strongest townread

[BoroPhil]

Initial thoughts:

a) Tricky was town. WTF
b) Scum took out the best two players by far. Pretty lucky not to go for the same one though.
c) Finglove following Tricky's dying wishes is odd considering how badly he played (though if he was sick I guess I can understand him not wanting to put the effort in)
d) But what is odder is he picks out a Tricky post from 470 (May 5) and ignores Tricky's last post - 739, 13 days later. Surely Fingy, if you are happy to 'happy to follow a dead mans suggestion for now', why not his last post?
e) Tricky did look scummy, but before we speedlynch Zeph, surely worth noting that he was actually the only person confidently townreading him. So maybe we should listen to what he has to say.

oh and Fingy, in response to 783 - I've had a scum read on 4 Heads for most of the game - see 322 for example.

a) This seems like a genuine reaction from someone who thought for sure Tricky was scum.
b) Why do you feel like you have to address the NK? Unless you're trying to figure out who would've wanted them dead, I see no reason to bring that up.
c)

Other name that springs out is BoroPhil. Tricks and Ascended got worried about him at various points, and I was scumreading him a while back as Glidder pointed out. Let me just iso him...

He stated that both Tricks

and

Ascended had a scumread on Boro, and also said he had a similar read on him earlier in the game. So it wasn't just Tricky.
d) Surely, Boro, if you had read, he was following not one, but

two

dead men's wishes, as well as his own wish. Just sayin'.
e) I agree that speedlynching someone isn't a good idea, but take a look at Zeph's post. At the risk of sounding quite rude, I think he's either scum or has one of the worst town plays I have ever seen.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So far there have been no posts from 4 Heads of Insanity or Zephyrus today. Let's get some activity from ya!

Now that I'm out of school, I should be able to make more posts. Sorry for the low activity Day 1!

in response to these:

b) didn't serve any purpose, just wanted to highlight that I think town was quite unfortunate last night.

Town has no reason to bring that up. The way you worded that sentence also concerns me...

c/d) I don't think Ascended had a scumread on me? and he was directly quoting Tricky, which was odd when Tricky's last wish was to vote for Moonlight. Why did Finglove deliberately select an earlier wish to lynch me?

I did a quick look at Ascended's ISO, and it looks like Pasch had a weak scumread on you while Mastin thought you were town. I admit, I misunderstood Fing's quote there. Didn't realize that that was Tricky.

That being said, Finglove has stated multiple times that he townreads Moon. Maybe he decided to go after you because two dead townies, along with himself, at some point read you as scum or possible scum?

Idk, it is kinda weird that he'd use Tricky's quote as a reason when Tricky changed his mind and said to go after Moon instead. Fing's other posts seem pretty town, though, and like I said above, multiple people have had a scumread (albeit weak at times) on you throughout this game.

e) he could very easily be disinterested/bad. having said that, I don't think Zeph would be the worst lynch today, but there are better. Baezu springs to mind.

Yeah, Baezu's definitely starting to lean towards a scumread for me. I think I'll keep my vote on Zeph for now, though, especially with Glidder's unvote.

We don't have information and we aren't getting information.
I think if we mislynch today we will have tomorrow 4 town and 3 mafia, which isn't an ideal setup. And if the worst comes to the worst, we could have 3 town and 4 mafia.
PEdit: K sorry must have missed that.

What's this in response to? I think I'm missing something.

why does town have no reason to bring that up?
do you disagree with it?
are there any other things I should be aware of that 'town shouldn't bring up'?

[BoroPhil]

VOTE: baezu

[BoroPhil]

Boro, if Baezu is scum, can you explain how you imagine her D2 play making sense if Zeph is not her buddy? What did she have to gain by wanting me gone instead of Zeph?

good question. I would say your activity makes you a much more valuable (and harder player to get rid off) lynch for scum (whether you are town or the other team). had a go on you, then decided to hop onto the popular wagon.

and Zeph only had 2 votes at the time?

[BoroPhil]

well I certainly agree we can't really move forward til we get our 2 replacements

[BoroPhil]

where do your reads stand atm Baezu?

[BoroPhil]

reinoe is doing amazingly well with what he's got (a fucking terrible predecessor in his slot). He is trying to cause strife among the townblock-in-the-making and sees scum motivation where there is none. None of what I have posted is fake, including my appeals to emotion.

Finglove is being cautious as he should be, it's precisely the kind of caution I expect from a Townie in what is basically MYLO for us.

And while that caution appeals to me, I deem it unnecessary at the same time. Baezu has given up, reinoe is in the unlucky situation where he is trying to pick up the pieces. =/

How am I causing strife? I'm not pushing for your lynch or trying to pit anyone against anyone. Why are you pro-actively trying to defend yourself from accusations that have not yet been made? Are you saying that your behavior deserves to be treated like like obvtown? Because the slurping and fucking going on between you and trickster was exhausting and I certainly wouldn't have been the only person questioning your interactions. And don't forget you only changed your opinion on trickster when you saw how the winds were blowing. I'm not in the mood to argue tonight. I'm way tired.

this is actually a great post.

reinoe has come in and done exactly what I would have done - read through it without knowing what would have happened later.

Moonlight - nothing makes someone seem less town to me than someone screaming that they are obvtown

[BoroPhil]

yeah, I've been in 3-faction games where town have snatched victory from the jaws of defeat, and I think it's pretty obvious tbh that we do not want to no-lynch here. there isn't much positive to say about the NS/Yuriko slot.

Moon - it's not annoying me, but it doesn't make any difference how many times you say it, you aren't conftown, no-one is. I'm judging people on their actions, not how many times they insist they are town. On balance, I think you are town, but you certainly aren't top of my town list.

[BoroPhil]

I think we seem to have a consensus on Baezu anyway. but I'd like to hear what the 4 heads replacement says before we lynch him.


TOWN
randomidget
Mr Glidder
---------------
Moonlight
Finglove
--------------
idk
reinoe
(4 Heads)
---------------
NS
Baezu
SCUM

is about where I am at the moment.
(town/leaning town/undecided/scum)

[BoroPhil]

jesus christ you lot. why the fucking rush?

[BoroPhil]

right so just ignore where I said I'd like to hear from 4 Heads.

actions like that, in conjunction with your supposed biggest scum read along with the other scummy person in the game is exactly why you don't look anything like conftown

[BoroPhil]

what makes you so sure you'll be alive on D3?

I can't see any town motivation for not wanting to hear from the replacement first. especially if they themselves might be dead by tomorrow.

[BoroPhil]

do it quick random, you'd be top of my NK list.

[BoroPhil]

right so just ignore where I said I'd like to hear from 4 Heads.

actions like that, in conjunction with your supposed biggest scum read along with the other scummy person in the game is exactly why you don't look anything like conftown

That doesn't apply in this case. It's a waste of time waiting for a lurker. I originally was supposed to be replacing the 4 heads slot and not zephyrus. So I'm completely fine with that hammer.

I don't understand? 4 heads is still being replaced?

[BoroPhil]

Ok Baezu if you are town, 2 scum teams are?

[BoroPhil]

Dunno: idk, moon (one of these is scum for sure)
Which leaves by Poe: glidder, NS, finglove

glidder?

[BoroPhil]

well if you are town, Moonlight/NS would certainly be no.1 and no.2 scum

[BoroPhil]

well if you are town, Moonlight/NS would certainly be no.1 and no.2 scum

4 heads hasn't posted in 19 days. How long were you willing to wait?

he is being replaced?

can wait as long as it takes

[BoroPhil]

blergh, if baezu is town I'm totally demoralised.

[BoroPhil]

did I get the wrong B seriously, Moon, you can fuck right off with this shit. if Baezu is town you should die tomorrow so quickly.

[BoroPhil]

er, bah.

[BoroPhil]

midget played excellently. I wouldn't have pegged him as scum in a million years.

tricky was awful, I don't think anyone can be blamed for lynching him.

NM and Ascended looked town and were town.

Idk looked scummy, had we lynched him instead of baezu we might have had a chance.

worst town performance ever?

[BoroPhil]

What made me doubt you Moon was the whole 'I am town, I am town' stuff

[BoroPhil]

Goes to show it's not a tell. reinoe also did something similar by suggesting that the mod rules treat him differently to randomidget, and he was Town too. =/

not a tell for you perhaps

tbf I still had you pegged as town, though I'd have probably come out firing for you on D3 simply because I was just going to flip my reads around as I'd got it so wrong on Tricky and Baezu

[BoroPhil]

I assume there wasn't a dead thread btw? I did ask llama but he didn't reply.

[BoroPhil]

BTW I was wondering why I got NKed over stronger players too?

We thought you were scum.
Interesting that all players involved in the big argument day 2 were town.

don't you find that happens so often though? Esp D1 and to a lesser extent D2, you get massive town-on-town arguments while scum sit back. If Tricky had engaged with me he could have convinced me he was town but he just wasn't interested.