Open 570: Making Friends and Enemies (Mafia Wins!)
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
In post 65, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Also, Huntress and Shinobi...why aren't you sheeping me?
I'm not sure if he's scum. He's been saying weird shit thus far, but it's MS: that's just how he is. I don't feel like anything he has said thus far has been particularly alignment indicative. Though I will admit that it's complete nonsense...
Why us, specifically? How did you get townreads on Huntress and me?-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
It's not a meta defense.
The thing you need to understand is that lynching someone because you don't like their playstyle is lynching someone for poor reasoning. Being weird doesn't make him scum. If we actually try to lynch him at this point in the game, it's nothing more than a policy lynch.
If you have an actual case on MS, I'd be more inclined to vote with you; otherwise, I'm not going to vote him.-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
In post 69, Metal Sonic wrote:Why, I'm trying to find out who's scum and catch them, of course!
This must be your first time seeing a master at work! No worries, watch and learn!
Bluebloodedtoffee, aren't you going to answer my questions? You should set a precedent for question-answering, otherwise people wouldn't want to answer your questions anymore for being a hypocrite
How exactly is your playstyle supposed to help us find scum? Everybody seems pretty clueless in regards to how you're handling things right now.-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
I feel like the term "defense" is being stretched particularly thin. I never really defended MS at that point in time; I stated that lynching him for being weird isn't a valid reason. And it isn't.
I didn't really feel like his entry post, in regards to his claiming both vanilla town and mason, is particularly damning evidence. What if he actually is a mason? Are you going to run him up just to find out? There are only two roles to claim in this setup, so claiming both of them at once while not at L-1 doesn't look particularly damning. Vote hopping is the only valid piece of evidence that I can see against him at this point, but I simply don't feel like this is a strong enough case to warrant my vote. If his nonsense continues or better evidence comes up, I'll consider voting him.
I would, however, love to hear more than three people talking about this.-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
In post 76, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:In post 75, Shinobi wrote:I feel like the term "defense" is being stretched particularly thin. I never really defended MS at that point in time; I stated that lynching him for being weird isn't a valid reason. And it isn't.
I didn't really feel like his entry post, in regards to his claiming both vanilla town and mason, is particularly damning evidence. What if he actually is a mason? Are you going to run him up just to find out? There are only two roles to claim in this setup, so claiming both of them at once while not at L-1 doesn't look particularly damning. Vote hopping is the only valid piece of evidence that I can see against him at this point, but I simply don't feel like this is a strong enough case to warrant my vote. If his nonsense continues or better evidence comes up, I'll consider voting him.
I would, however, love to hear more than three people talking about this.
I would say you soft-defended him. It was nowhere near as blatant as MS' soft-defend of NPAU (nopointactingup) but it was there.
I'd like to run him up and find out, yeah. A Mason just wouldn't make a post like that, either he is a bad VT or he's scum, and I think the latter fits better with his play so far.
I would also like to hear from some more people. It would be excellent if they could read the thread and then sheep me.
I fail to see how "soft-defending" anyone is relevant information. Are you implying that NPAU is his scumbuddy? How does that make him scum in this circumstance? Why don't you think a mason would make that post?-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
In post 83, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:In post 82, Shinobi wrote:
I fail to see how "soft-defending" anyone is relevant information. Are you implying that NPAU is his scumbuddy? How does that make him scum in this circumstance? Why don't you think a mason would make that post?
It's not a whole lot to go on right now, but it can be very useful later in the game when there will have been flips/NK's.
I may be implying that NPAU could be his scum-buddy. Of course, he could be a Mason soft-defending his partner, but as I previously stated, I have already ruled this possibility out. Why doyouthink he took it upon himself to answer a question that was directed at somebody else?
I just don't think a Mason would essentially make a soft-claim like that in an entry post. It seems a little dangerous.
I just don't see the mason angle and I'd prefer to leave it at that. It should be obvious that talking about possible masons is bad, and this conversation could be used by scum for narrowing down possible mason suspects.
Regardless, I'm willing to wait for more thread development. I'm not willing to hop on this bandwagon as of right now.-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
In post 88, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:In post 87, Shinobi wrote:I don't know. Maybe you should ask him instead of jumping to the conclusion that he's scum for answering someone else's question.
I have. He chose not to respond.
That's not the only reason I'm scum-reading him either.
I'm aware, but that isn't the issue.
Without having his flip in front of you, that post could have come from town!MS or scum!MS, and you have no way of knowing otherwise. NPAU is actually guilty of doing this "soft-defending" as well, but you haven't seemed to have called him on it at all. What gives?-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
Qft. Also a hilariously shameless prod dodge.-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
In post 162, Metal Sonic wrote:In post 158, Shinobi wrote:I think it's weird that MS is reading me as town so early.
Especially considering how hard I wound up burning him in the last game I was in.
You didn't burn me, marquis did.
Fair enough. I have no interest in this argument regardless.-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
In post 165, Metal Sonic wrote:Comments on the game state? I have a pretty strong scumread right now, guess who it is?
Is it gm?
I don't have any comments on the game state.-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
In post 237, Zebulin wrote:ISOing everyone, will post reads once finished
I'm loving the sense of context here.-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
In post 248, goodmorning wrote:In post 244, Shinobi wrote:I've thought about it and I have no idea what you think having me answer that question will accomplish.
Why ask it?
It will accomplish making you readable.
I don't see what it is about that statement that has made it so inexplicable for you.
No, it really won't.
The only answer that I could feasibly give you is one that is generic; thus, you should already know the answer and asking the question is a waste of time as a whole.-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
Okay, let's move on from the fact that I think that question is dumb and I'll give you an answer even though I really don't want to:
Because ISOing players during day 1 isn't going to produce much in the way of findings, especially when you can just read the thread and glean the exact same information but with better context. Using an ISO this early is needless busywork and it's just generally better to ask questions and play the game. Even if you didn't want to talk much, reading the thread is still better because looking at a pure ISO doesn't give you the same quality of read because of a lack of context.
And that isn't even getting into the fact that nothing of importance has actually warranted an ISO dive, in my opinion.
So how does this answer make me readable in any way? How does this help you figure out my alignment?-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
In post 363, Josh_B wrote:In post 350, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:What an awful answer. Can you elaborate on this please? What do you care for? What don't you care for? How are you reading GM and NPAU right now?
1.Nope
2. ...
3. ...
4. I'm fence sitting until some sort of conviction sets in. But if you must know, I'm considering sheeping your current vote because this post...
In post 313, Shinobi wrote:I'm putting BBT in my anti-sheep list. That's how little faith I have in him right now.
... makes me feel like your vote is significant, But I'm happy where I am at the moment.
I don't get it. Explain?-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
In post 468, Malakittens wrote:Because I'm a hell of a lot easier to lynch than you are at this point in time.
A recurring theme which I find hilarious.-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
I haven't really been paying attention to this game much, so consider this somewhat of a prod dodge/catch up post.
BBT vs Mala looks almost exactly like a bog-standard TvT fight: lots of point-by-point analysis being done on each other and lots of passion from both sides. I'd really like you two to stop fighting and to move on to something else, because it looks like you two butt heads every single time you're both in the thread.
I can't even remember where my vote is or why I put it there, so UNVOTE: .
NPAU is scummy for the following reasons: his frequent vote swapping/shoddy reasoning is more in-line with spreading doubt rather than solving the game, but somebody probably already pointed it out.
Someone is going to have to explain the GM wagon to me at some point, and preferably in non-MS terms. Mala's case seems okay but some evidence would be great.
Also, if the people calling me scummy could, like, shut up, that would be great. I'll get more up-to-date at some point.-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
In post 729, davesaz wrote:In post 711, Shinobi wrote:I hate how everyone is drawing associative reads from everything.
I'm looking at them and they all look dumb. Maybe it's just me.
In post 712, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:In post 711, Shinobi wrote:I hate how everyone is drawing associative reads from everything.
I'm looking at them and they all look dumb. Maybe it's just me.
I agree. Associative reads without flips/relevant information are indeed dumb.
In post 713, Malakittens wrote:Yeah I have never fully understood why people do it, but I'm guilty of doing it myself accidentally sometimes
You can get associative reads from the pattern of voting even before a lynch is reached, if you notice that 2 or more people are together when wagons swing, or counteract each other. And also from who people support or lock in on. But I would agree in part, you might have reason to say they're the same or opposite alignment, but not know which is which until there is a flip.
It is also possible to use associations in a PoE manner. It's much easier to find the negative "probably not associated with" than the positive. Someone who looks like they can't possibly be associated with anyone may be more likely to be not scum.
Yeah. After flips.
Before flips, it's irrelevant. It's an awfully convenient way of having reads that can be changed without engaging someone or trying to understand their motivations.-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
In post 730, uctriton00 wrote:Your 729 answers it. I think if we are right on NPAU being scum it sets up some people to be town.
GM for same reasons why I've said I don't think they're on the same team.
Scripten for that well thought out case on NPAU (I would doubt its worth it to bus on Day 1 with 13 players, and I doubt a bus would have that much effort Scripten put. In my personal cases of bussing, usually it's some half assed sentence or idea, not a thought out case like that)
Stuff like this doesn't make sense. If NPAU is scum, then sure, I guess. Maybe. It depends on who was pushing him and why.
If he's not, then we've basically enticed a shitload of people into believing they'll be more town by voting off a townie. <-------------------------An inherently mafia mindset oriented push.-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
In post 741, davesaz wrote:In post 730, uctriton00 wrote:Your 729 answers it. I think if we are right on NPAU being scum it sets up some people to be town.
GM for same reasons why I've said I don't think they're on the same team.
Scripten for that well thought out case on NPAU (I would doubt its worth it to bus on Day 1 with 13 players, and I doubt a bus would have that much effort Scripten put. In my personal cases of bussing, usually it's some half assed sentence or idea, not a thought out case like that)
If NPAU showed up as town, would that change things? That was what I was really asking.
This is basically why we kill uct, for the record.-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
In post 754, uctriton00 wrote:In post 751, Shinobi wrote:I've discovered that uct is scum and you should vote him with me.
hi there reaction test
Not a reaction test.-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
In post 783, uctriton00 wrote:I slept on it and thought about it the rest of the day, unfortunately there's no update. I'm just not seeing the town motivation behind anything being said right now.
Bar him cueing up a total backtrack right now (which he basically gave up his only out of calling it a reaction test, and has said that it's a straight scum read), I don't see how his poking is town motivated. I've wrapped it around my head for a while and still can't see it.
So where's the scum motivation, specifically?
You're saying that there's no town motivation whatsoever, but you leave any other kind of interpretation of my actions out of your posts.-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
Stop worrying about Mala because Mala is town. That entire conversation is basically nothing more than useless meta arguments combined with playstyle clashes, which results in nothing but meaningless white noise. If Mala is somehow scum here, then whatever the fuck you guys are doing basically just gave her a lot to talk about. We are not lynching an outspoken/active player on day 1.
Instead, let's focus on the guy I'm voting. The guy who was posting here not even a minute before I was and then immediately fucks off when I pressure him.-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
uctriton00 wrote:Simple question shinobi:
What is your case on me?
Without help from others, please show your work.
See, the fun part about this game is that I'm not required to explain anything to you. Even if you don't answer my question, I'm still going to get people to vote you for being mafia.
Alternatively alternatively:
uctriton00 wrote:In post 764, davesaz wrote:The reason it doesn't swing all the way to town for me is that scum could make the same point that Shinobi did in order to cast doubts on the townpeople on the NPAU wagon to deflect suspicion from a buddy.
Do you see town motivation in Shinobi's posts, esp. the latest ones where he started stabbing at me?
You could stop being so hypocritical.-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
In post 795, goodmorning wrote:In post 784, uctriton00 wrote:In post 764, davesaz wrote:The reason it doesn't swing all the way to town for me is that scum could make the same point that Shinobi did in order to cast doubts on the townpeople on the NPAU wagon to deflect suspicion from a buddy.
Do you see town motivation in Shinobi's posts, esp. the latest ones where he started stabbing at me?
You're joking, right?
You should move your vote onto him.
Instead of keeping it on a useless wagon that will never happen, like Sonic's.
Pedit: Fucking lol. Kill this dude.-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
I told you I wasn't going to post it because I wanted to ask you questions to hopefully make it stronger or weaker. And then you said you weren't going to answer my questions because I haven't posted my case.
So then you made a case on me not posting my case because you weren't answering my questions. Then you said you were answering questions.
Do you or do you not see the issue with how dumb this conversation is.
Pedit: cursing is fun. You know it to be true.-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
Here's my current problem with you: I could have a case, or I could have no case, and you simply have no way of knowing the difference without me straight up telling you what my case is or isn't. You can't draw a conclusion based on what I might or might not say if I haven't said anything to begin with. It looks like you're just flipping the fuck out because someone is attacking you and immediately accusing them of having "no town thought process." I don't have to "run your reactions through mud" because they look nonsensical with or without my input. Here's our current sequence of events:
1) I called you scummy because of reasons that I haven't yet disclosed.
2) You flipped out and said I have no town motivation for anything.
3) I asked you a question, and you still haven't answered it because I haven't posted my case.
4) You made a case which I've already debunked.
5) You came up with more reasons to vote me because of things thatyoudid in another game.
You're making it impossible for me to get a good read on you because I really can't tell where you're coming from. You can't call someone scum and come up with reasoningafterwardsbecause that doesn't make sense.
As for your proposed scumteam, I've already come out with reasons as to why I would vote NPAU. Why is it that you think that I'm his scumpartner if I already said I'm totally willing to vote him?
Alternatively, if I'm not scum, who is and why?-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
In post 814, Scripten wrote:In post 813, Malakittens wrote:I seriously don't know what to do with Shin v Uct.
Two notes. I find it strange that uct already moved his vote onto Shinobi. I would like to eventually hear Shinobi's case as well.
From this interaction, I'm feeling like at least one of the two is town.
Why?
To the second part, that is.-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
-
-
Shinobi Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6138
- Joined: February 12, 2014
- Location: NC
The issue isn't "was NPAU getting bussed or not" because that kind of question is a rabbit hole of wifom at this point of the game.
The issue is that uct's reasoning completely falls apart if NPAU is town. In theory, town lynches are all illogical because lynching town inherently makes no sense. Uct's reasoning for his scumread boils down to "it sets people up to be town" which is nothing more than convenience for the sake of convenience.
Furthermore, who sits down and says "my two scumreads are totally willing to vote each other" and thinks that that makes total sense?