Open 596: Mega PopCorn Mafia - Over

[pablito]

/confirm

[pablito]

I vote that we use votes, despite the cosmetic nature.

When I read the set-up, I thought about something that happened in a Lights Out 1 (completed theme park game in 2006) where Pooky created a referendum-based voting system to create a papertrail to ensure that there was always something to look back at. And in a game with "cosmetic votes", I think we need to do something specific to ensure that everyone can be held to some standard. Thoughts?

I also remember Kingmaker (and the subsequent other versions...I think there was a consulmaker too?) where there were several other voting methods in a game where a small number had power to decide the "lynch".

[pablito]

I think at this point, discussing strategies is for the best of the town. Because it is essentially a nightless mountainous with unique lynch mechanisms, we need to understand how we can scumhunt effectively rather than just blindly going into this. I get that it also gives scum a chance to prepare for everything as well, but the more efficient the town is, the better. Barring any suicidal gunbearers, the mafia only get to make three "nightkills" in which they get to choose a new gunbearer. This means that if there are four people we trust as town, we already outnumber the gunpower of the mafia. This is a game where great discussion, long "lynch cycles" and holding each other very accountable is a strong strategy to get a quicker win. That being said, my biggest scum tells are those that are opposing this by either trolling the thread, failing to comment on others and also voting daycitylights.

I propose that Nacho as the gunbearer (and subsequent ones that want to follow this tactic) make a short-list prior to shooting the gun and forcing everyone to comment on the shortlist to ensure that we have information before a shot is made. The voting as it is can only guarantee that votes (if even done at all) are on the spread, rather than commenting on the specific action by the gunbearer. That's what I remember from Kingmaker.

The referendum style voting I refer to in Lights Out 1 kinda went like this:

Target: Wanderer-nl
Accuser: pablito
Rationale: For agreeing with my post about needing to vote and then completely ignoring the rest of my post about voting styles only picking up on the first sentence. Then doing a re-read and voting for someone who mentioned about the game tactic and not fully understanding it. I would've suspected that wanderer-nl would have picked up on more in a re-read than a retread of what others are doing. Therefore, I believe that wanderer is trying to look town while also voting in a way that is not even applying pressure and is helping distract the town on a very futile lead.
Evidence: Post #177
YEA (0): people who voted yea here.
NAY (0): people who voted nay here.

This forces people to comment and put their votes down early on specific rationale. The gunbearer would not have to choose based on this either, but it gives us something to look into later. As far as I could read in the rules, this is not against anything because the gunbearer is not being held to any standard based on this.

I'm not sure what people think, but I am strongly advocating for not doing a simple "vote 1 person" system as it is too limiting when power is taken away from the vote mechanic. There's too much noise in posts right now to make me think the referendum system would work efficiently unless everyone agrees to it. Later in the game it would be crucial to use, but by then the paper trail would be lost. If there are other good ideas out there, please put them out there.

That being said, wanderer-nl is both my biggest town and scum read, that is until vonflare voluntarily posted reads. I also have another scum read but would like to wait until that person comments on voting techniques. VOTE: wanderer-nl

[pablito]

Also to everyone commenting about wanting to get vengeful mafia first - how do you expect vengeful mafia to act differently than mafia goons?

[pablito]

VOTE: unvote

Wanderer's post about vengeful mafia is making me think again.

@CB
I am really liking nachomamma's stint as gun bearer so far. I wish nacho can be in the game the entire time but we know this is impossible. But at the same time a town should never put the entire game on the hands of one person. as such we all need to contribute in good ways. So CB try to emulate what you like about nachomamma and do the same then we can rely on you later in the game too. Because this game is really about finding vengeful. Nacho getting one and dying is a good sacrifice.

I'm liking julien so far.

[pablito]

Wanderer's post about vengeful mafia is making me think again.

@Pablito: I think goons would encourage vengeful to be shot because it kills town in the process. So there won't be as much resistance to a vengeful being shot than if a plain goon was in danger of being shot. Honestly, I don't really know, it also depends on how scum intend to play this game. Without them having a NK, it will be harder to sort things out.

This was the post that changed your mind? Why? What other suspicions do you have?

Yes #224 made me rethink. That was the only post that made me unvote. I am not opposed to wanderer being shot though at this point.

@Wanderer-nl

'Whoever else' includes dcl (129) so this just feels awkward to me. Also, if she really thinks there's scum in the people calling to shoot them, then why not check back to see who exactly it were instead of writing 'whoever else'?
Not a solid case but this early good enough for me to put a vote on.

VOTE: dcl

That vote, while it has justification, the act of the vote at that time just didn't feel good to me. @Wanderer, how do you feel about millar's post:

id kill dcl. i got a feeling

and this one?

dcl is my current thought for a shot on an active player, yeah

@vonflare - on your town read list you kinda put Maxwell, wanderer and me on your town reads. If Nacho were to shortlist all three of us then, what would you think and who would you support the most then? Also your post I think uses colors and I'm colorblind so I don't know what your colors mean and I don't care to look at the code in your post.

@Lucky2u - scumhunting in this game will be tough. How much weight do you hold in this vote?

Hi guys. I'm posting from my phone so formatting might be awkward. In reply to vonflare's characterisation of my earlier post as something like 'mostly wifom', I would point out that I did try to evaluate all the possibilities and say which I preferred. Read it again if you want.

And, to business:

VOTE: Wanderer-nl

@MaxwellPuckett - how do you feel about the implementation of a system that is more than just votes? How do you feel about the referenda system I referred to in post #198?

[pablito]

@CB
I am really liking nachomamma's stint as gun bearer so far. I wish nacho can be in the game the entire time but we know this is impossible. But at the same time a town should never put the entire game on the hands of one person. as such we all need to contribute in good ways. So CB try to emulate what you like about nachomamma and do the same then we can rely on you later in the game too. Because this game is really about finding vengeful. Nacho getting one and dying is a good sacrifice.

I am feeling a little uneasy about this post. The tone of it suggests you know my alignment.

Yes, CB, I read you as town. I assuming you're town. But at the same time, in my post, I'm encouraging you to be good town. Your skepticism of me is healthy, and makes me read you further as town. However, if you like Nacho, be like Nacho. I think you're capable of leading good discussions later. And that is one of your worries.


@MaxwellPuckett - Please don't forget to answer my question in #282. Thanks.

[pablito]

I'm getting scum-reads on Maxwell - moreso as a vengeful mafia. It was a gut feeling early on in the day, but now it's getting stronger as a vengeful mafia. I'm not feeling the full aggressiveness that I want from Maxwell. Maxwell seems to me as trying to look town without going full force. I see Maxwell as having good content inside each post, but I am not getting a

comprehensive

inter-posting pattern that is creating an overall picture. In an ISO, he'll look fine, but not in context of all other posts. Just as much as others are suspecting wanderer for not doing scum-hunting, I'm getting Maxwell as being half-assed scum-hunting. Which is why I asked the question of a voting system. If I felt Maxwell was pure town, I'd've wanted Maxwell to actually try to implement something. But I don't get the sense that Maxwell wants that. So prove me wrong Maxwell and force everyone to look at certain players through some type of referendum or focused-voting system.

@Maxwell (and if you care, @wanderer) - my thoughts on wanderer? I still think that wanderer talking about mafia wanting the vengefuls to go first is either a dumb-mafia tell or a town tell. I lean toward town tell, in fact, the posts about win condition speculation are the ones I would want to put the most weight into. So, for the moment, I have wanderer as a strong town tell. I am going to excuse the dcl vote as well, but I do

not

like the rationale that the dcl vote was to stir up discussion. #298 feels genuine to me as well - mainly because there's a lot of over-reaching in a lot of the analyses especially scum pairing with vonflare. I think wanderer as over-eager town than anything else. I don't feel that the analyses in #298 are necessarily helpful, but I feel it is coming from a townsperson perspective easily. julienvonwolfe has no effect on my view on wanderer as you can see in my post. All that being said, if wanderer is a target to be shot, I'm all for it. I think wanderer has shown some holes, and I'd like to see how wanderer would be in even more pressure and how others would react to wanderer being in full pressure as well. I just still have a more town-leaning read on wanderer though. wanderer being gunbearer if shot is not a bad thing though, which is why I have no problem with wanderer being a target despite my view on her.

@Maxwell regarding julienvonwolfe. Tell me again where you read that julien says that we ought to follow the gunbearer? I assume you're reading post #237, but if you could read it again for me and tell me where you read that, I'd appreciate it.

@Maxwell - also please explain this:

Also, scum can choose the gunbearer, remember? They indirectly control the shot (obviously not nacho's, but every shot after that), so it's more dangerous to just follow the gunbearer's lead, as that gunbearer's lead is geared towards what the scum wants, especially if the gunbearer is left to their own devices and town is afraid to argue with them.

Basically, I'm saying that is has to be a discussion, not done by majority vote and definitely not by just following the gunbearer.

I'm going to comment on several people but not all.

Nacho - confirmed town. Very good in leading discussion earlier on, seems to be taking a backseat at the moment except for follow-up questions. I appreciate that the town has found a groove in which we're guiding the discussion as it gives Nacho a lot more to see in interactions and also to see where things lead. I also urge that Nacho makes sure that we don't hyperfocus on people.

wanderer - see above

Maxwell - see above

julienvonwolfe - Town read still. see above.

CB - town read. I'll echo Maxwell's rationale.

Perpetual Nonsense, Heartless - Can't pick up anything and I'm too distracted by my views on others to have a good read on either of them. Probably for good reason.

enomis - I really like #301. mostly town right now. Town reading on the comment about deadlines. While I fully disagree on changing deadlines, I think the suggestion was not anti-town motivated.

vonflare - I mostly like that von was the first to post a full list of everyone without being prompted. The process of doing so makes me think town. Since then others have also done so, but von took initiative. That makes von either town, or very prepared scum. I think the former. I do not agree with the content, but I agree with the town intent in that move.

flubbernugget - can't be arsed to iso or read more, but leans town.

West9 - People have read west and have an opinion. I am distracted by my views on others. But, I feel this is one person that deserves my attention right now so here goes - post #171 looks town, but I don't get town intent from it. I like the pressure west is giving vonflare though. I now see why people aren't seeing von in the same way I do. The pressure seems to be appropriate, but mostly focused on vonflare. Scum-reading at the moment, but it's very weak. I wouldn't propose putting west in the pressure-bracket or shortlist at the moment.

lucky and redcoyote - both super lurkers and very unhelpful to town. No read either way and would much rather not have them on the shortlist, but if either gets shot, I won't be that bothered either.

the rest - I'm either too tired to write right now, or they just don't register for me at the moment.

[pablito]

I was going to make a long post, but I'm unexpectedly very exhausted so I'll save the long post for tomorrow. Instead I'll reply to random quotes of my biased choosing:

Finally, pablito: That voting system. I like it. You suggested it. I kind of expected you to try and implement it too. Why are you not doing that?

When you suggested it, you were looking for opinions or better ideas than your own, right? And I agreed with your idea, so naturally I should be the one to 'force' everyone else to go along with it too? First: what? And second: It's not something that can be forced. Everyone has to agree, or at least the majority needs to agree, before something can be done.

Nacho: How do you feel about pablito's suggestion? If anyone can lead that off the ground, it'd be you, and I think it's something we can do.

Everyone:

Same question.

Yes, we can force people to do it. If they don't, they're on the shortlist for being shot. That being said, votes mean nothing, right?

VOTE: MaxwellPuckett

I'll write up a few proposals for lynching and ask people to vote on them. I'll do that tomorrow, but right now I'd think about Heartless' views on Maxwell, Maxwell's view on julien, von on wanderer? and whatever else seems to be prominent today. There's more, my brain's not working.

Maxwell, I'm reading into what is being said and what's not being said. I get a lot from you about what's not being said. I got the sense you agreed to something stronger and that was from both you and wanderer. I just expected more from you. I didn't from wanderer. This is why I am pressuring you. And I continue to feel like you intentionally are passing over a lot to focus on other things. I don't know what I'm saying right now.

Just as much as others are suspecting wanderer for not doing scum-hunting, I'm getting Maxwell as being half-assed scum-hunting. Which is why I asked the question of a voting system. If I felt Maxwell was pure town, I'd've wanted Maxwell to actually try to implement something. But I don't get the sense that Maxwell wants that. So prove me wrong Maxwell and force everyone to look at certain players through some type of referendum or focused-voting system.

You lost me here. Are you scumreading everyone who isn't suggesting a voting system? If not, why hold Max up to that standard? Or am I completely misreading this?

No, I'm scum-reading people who agreed with it but aren't doing enough with it or laying down the foundation to pressure people heavily like the system entails. That being said, I wonder why this makes me think that you're defending Maxwell? Please share with me your views on Maxwell, west.


There's another post I wanted to reply to tonight, but can't find it.

That being said, I don't agree with Nacho about the two shot targets for today. However, I think everyone should comment on those two, but I think we should expand the short-list to or two more. I'd propose we add wanderer to a short-list, since everyone's already mostly commented on wanderer, so it's not like it's much more work. Obviously, I'd like to add Maxwell too, but I feel it's an unpopular opinion (which makes me want to push it further...).

Oh found the post

@Maxwell: I like Pablito's suggestion of that vote-form, but it's basically the same as normal voting except there's a neat template.
I'm currently having a little stronger scumreads, and my opinion on Vonflare hasn't changed yet. Will get to that later, need a break first.

No, it's not the same as voting. Voting means I have 17 options and I can pick and choose when I want.

This referendum would force people to choose either: "yes" or "no" on one specific person that is being brought to the forefront. An ultimatum really. Voting gives you several options to hide behind. Referenda do not.

[pablito]

I don't understand what accuser is. Is that like who nominated someone to get shot?

Yeah. It's just as important to know who started the argument as much as whom it's against. Catching up and gonna make a post now.

[pablito]

THINGS ALL PLAYERS SHOULD BE DOING:

• Comment on Lucky getting shot after the weekend. Do you agree with this shot?
  
• Vote on the referendums in 466. If you have an additional case/comment on your vote, please post using the format to make linking easier.
  
• If your name is: West, millar, Perpetual Nonsense, or enomis, please post more/make more of an effort to engage with the readslist in 462 so that I can get a more comprehensive read on you. If you are on the scumlist and my read on you is incorrect, please also make more of an effort to interact with me and talk about my reads.

Yes. Shoot lucky. I think at this point, your rationale on Lucky is good enough. I still think lucky is town, but I think it's worth the shot. The most important thing is that Lucky reads everything no matter what before your shot is made. RedCoyote I think can have more utility later on and there's more in terms of connections that I'd like to see grow before I'd want to see Red's flip.

1.1
Target: Vonflare
Accuser: Nachomamma8
Rationale:
I didn't like that he put out that readslist early game. There's a very distinct difference in how town and scum approach readslists and that's generally that town players form readslists because they're trying to have a comprehensive place to put their reads while scum are making a readlist just to show content and look town and, considering vonflare didn't really have any reads he was confident about, it definitely seemed like the latter. I also didn't like how he immediately went from scumreading flubber and nullreading Nonsense in his readslist to not scumreading flubber; I can't see why he as town would back down from that read so quickly without any sort of explanation at all. The "template" excuse also falls sort of flat since a template of "oh let me copy paste names from the front page" really isn't difficult at all. I also don't like the excuse for being late on the "shoot me" discussion being that he was ninja'd for 20 minutes straight, although this point isn't a particularly strong one for me. I have trouble seeing him misremembering what exactly happened and coming up with the ninja'd excuse. I also don't like how harshly he's fallen off.
Evidence: 184 (Readslist), 190 ("Ninja'd"), 221 (Flubbernugget Contradiction).
YEA (0): people who voted yea here.
NAY (0): people who voted nay here.

Spoiler: Additional Referendums

None here yet.

1.2
Target: CB
Sponsor: Nachomamma8
Rationale: CB's posts this game have rang very genuine to me. Theory in 158 seems like it's coming from town since that's very certainly not what happened in the mafia thread. Talking about the vonflare trap in 238 additionally seemed like a bit of a paranoid but overall a very genuine concern which I also liked a lot. The paranoia directed towards pablito in 287 for the "you seem like you know I'm town" is excellent excellent excellent, and the theory for the twitter post originally posited in 238 being followed up on in 337 looks absolutely fantastic because it shows that he's still thinking about and revisiting old lines of thought. This is a very town mindset.
Evidence: 158 (Gunbearer Strategy), 238 (Trap/Initial Twitter Post Suspicion), 287 (Pablito Suspicion)
YEA (0): people who voted yea here.
NAY (0): people who voted nay here.

Spoiler: Additional Referendums

None here yet.

1.3
Target: Wanderer
Accuser: julienvonwolfe
Rationale: Here our friend Wanderer proposes normal mafia playing techniques (voting, lynching those with the most votes) as if they are incredibly useful scum hunting techniques. I'll admit that there's a reason that we use them in every other game, just about, as getting people to state their opinions is good for town, but I don't like the suggestion that we coerce (or constrain, perhaps) the gunbearer. From my perspective, the gunbearer is confirmed town, and any majority opinion of players will include scum joining and maybe even steering the wagon. I trust the gunbearer more than the collective will of the players, in other words.

But what really rubs me up the wrong way is the 'cosmetic' vote (because of course votes don't matter anyway, right, guys? ) and then the jumping on people like dcl and vonflare, both of whom seem to me to be more divisive than scummy.
Evidence: 177
YEA (0): people who voted yea here.
NAY (0): people who voted nay here.

Spoiler: Additional Referendums

None here yet.

1.4
Target: Wanderer
Sponsor: Nachomamma8
Rationale: The "I'm trying to figure out to post without dropping towntells" statement in 259 is one that I've been thinking about a lot lately and I very strongly feel there's no way in hell it comes from scum. The frustration with the suspicion surrounding her in 441 is additionally a really good post if scum, and the last post of 383 is good aggression that seems very unlikely to come from scum who was just coming under a lot of pressure towards someone that just backed off. I will probably explain this read further in player-specific rebuttals since there's a lot of suspicion on the slot but I can't really see a scenario where I shoot her as long as I hold the gun.
Evidence: 259 (Towntell post), 383 (Backlash against enomis), 441 (Shoot me and get it over with)
YEA (0): people who voted yea here.
NAY (0): people who voted nay here.

Spoiler: Additional Referendums

None here yet.

1.1 NAY. Do not shoot for that reason, I don't agree with the suspicion.
1.2 NAY. Do not shoot, is very, very town.
1.3 NAY. That rationale does not stand up for me.
1.4 NAY. I do not buy that argument, and I think wanderer actually falls in the middle for me at the moment, but would not agree on putting wanderer in either town or scum pile based on that argument.

Don't forget you can disagree with the rationale but yet still think someone is scum and want to see them shot.

As such, with vonflare, I see #382 as significant for the future. I'd be willing to see vonflare shot just to see if there's any connection then to Red or Maxwell. I see vonflare as opening up further discussion and making self known despite previous reads being completely blank. vonflare's defensiveness also seems very distracting from anything else. I'm changing my mind on vonflare being town now. I am starting to see how von can be scum. That being said, my vote remains NAY on 1.1 because the rationale from nacho does not match mine.

Finally, pablito: That voting system. I like it. You suggested it. I kind of expected you to try and implement it too. Why are you not doing that?

When you suggested it, you were looking for opinions or better ideas than your own, right? And I agreed with your idea, so naturally I should be the one to 'force' everyone else to go along with it too? First: what? And second: It's not something that can be forced. Everyone has to agree, or at least the majority needs to agree, before something can be done.

Nacho: How do you feel about pablito's suggestion? If anyone can lead that off the ground, it'd be you, and I think it's something we can do.

Everyone:

Same question.

I am glad Nacho and wanderer started it off. Maxwell,

No

we do not have to agree. This is a lynchless game. Agreeing is the least of our worries. The whole theme of this game is about not agreeing. You wanting to put the implementation of the system to agreement by the majority...well it sounds like you're pussy footing again.

FoS: Maxwell yet again

pablito: I'm a bit confused. You said you expected more from me than from Wanderer, which, while flattering(?), does not make much sense to me. I've never played a game with you before, and Wanderer has considerably more games than me. This is my first non-Newbie on the site, ie my third game. Are you saying that you've read up on both of us, and think I'm the better player, or did you think I had a strong start in this game, while Wanderer did not, and now I'm not living up to your initial expectations?

As for my thinking Millar is not vengeful: Lazy play. There's a difference between laziness and lurking, and there it is. Millar is currently bored with the game, and that makes me think town or vanilla maf, not vengeful. I believe vengefuls would be doing more to avoid being the shot. Doing things that don't involve blatantly saying that Flubber will be the shot, for instance. I don't think a Millar shot is worth it.

But, apparently Nacho is avoiding Vengefuls, and would like to be shooting in inactives for that reason. I guess I can understand that, as Nacho wants to stay alive and be more useful, it's just the opposite of what I'd like to do. But since I haven't been able to propose an active shot of my own, I guess I can't blame anyone for going the inactive route. So, considering that, I guess Millar is as good a shot as any? But I'll look at Wanderer's proposals right now.

As for why I treated Maxwell and wanderer differently despite both talking about my voting system - wanderer clearly did not understand it. Pass given. Maxwell has not yet stated any difficulty with understanding it. Pass not given. That being said, I did force Maxwell to comment on the system whereas wanderer did so voluntarily. That is because I had a gut feeling on Maxwell and I'm pressuring Maxwell to fit my initial read. I will not deny I am hyperfocused on Maxwell and overly biased.

@Nacho - replying to your 468.
I agree with your rationale for your viewpoint, but if I become gunbearer, I'm holding all non-voters accountable and putting them on my short-list. The more non-voters not in the game, the easier it will be for those left behind.

Also the referendum system was used in a lynch-based game. It helped guide discussion. Here in this game, it will help somewhat, especially since very few people are actually voting. I fully expect the GB to make a decision independent to his/her own scum-finding tactics. The GB is already confirmed town and his/her continuation in the game relies on the shot taken.

[pablito]

Okay, Nacho's 464 makes a lot of sense to me. I think I like Red after all. Victor's definitely worth a shot; I missed how his 'unless I get shot' post could be a slip.

UNVOTE: Wanderer

VOTE: Victor

~~~

Regarding Lucky's post 473: Jesus.

~~~

Comment on Lucky getting shot after the weekend. Do you agree with this shot?

Sure, though I prefer Victor just now.

~~~

Other referenda:

1.1 (Vonflare): Okay with a Vonflare shot. I had a vague sense initially that the criticism was undeserved but he has flown under the radar since.
1.1 (CB): Not okay with a CB shot.
1.3,4 (Wanderer): Okay with a wanderer shot.

~~~

Jeanne either needs to play properly or replace out.

~~~

Eh. I'm kind of done right now. The referendum mechanic is okay but isn't really a substitute for the usual analysing of votes. I realise this post is a bit insubstantial but am running out of steam a bit.

So let's say this were normal mafia and nacho was a vocal townsperson and voted vonflare and got von lynched with a healthy wagon whom agreed with nachos reasons. von then flips mafia. We go back in time to see who followed nacho if any sheeped or if there was a strong counter wagon and who didn't vote von to lynch. We analyze the wagons After the flip.

So let's say nacho is in a game where very few people are voting on their own. BTW thanks for voting julien. So nacho asks people to look at his rationale for executing von and some people ignore it some people agree and some people counter the argument. Von is executed anyway and flips mafia. We analyze the wagons after the flip.

This is how I see it. What is your rationale for it being significantly different? Right now we have no flip and need one to go anywhere. but at the same time we need info pre-flip to go off later.

Also julien if you are okay with a wanderer execution do you still agree with both reasons why? In normal mafia we can join bandwagons without agreeing with others' votes. With referenda you can't.

Also I agree mostly with nachos read list except I disagree with the view on maxwell and am torn on wanderer.

I think we have enough info on most at this point for d1 to end except from Jeanne and maybe millar

[pablito]

Welcome to the game Feirei!

I'm disappointed that Nacho didn't stick to his guns (pun not intended) and go for one of his two top prime targets. We didn't get much information beforehand on views on Victor except for a small few. That is after the moment when momentum on Lucky/RC started to wane. I intend to look at that information right now. I doubt it's going to give much. Unless Lucky or RedCoyote is a vengeful, there's likely not much action from mafia distracting from making those shots. As such, I don't think that looking at the counter-wagons is going to give us much information. I wouldn't be surprised if Lucky or RC is a goon, but ah well.

That being said, I'm not disappointed that Victor is the GB now. I think Victor can lead us to something good. Victor, please make your case known on how you would like your stint to go down. Let us know if you want votes, referenda, and/or discussion. Please let us know later on if you have a shortlist you'd like us to discuss. You don't have to reveal the names yet. I don't think it's a good idea if you do.

Regarding the referenda, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a concerted effort in the mafia thread to dethrone the referenda as a predominant force in this game. It's a bitch to enforce, a bitch to read through, and a bitch to participate in. But at the same time, it gives very little space for mafia to hide in, if town is participating in it. Defeatist players coming into D2 look scummy to me. This is why Heartless is getting a semi-town read coming into D2. Heartless was the most excited seeing a flip and took it and ran with it. I see it as Heartless either trying to take advantage and derail town, or using the time for legitimate scumhunting. I lean toward scumhunting. My two strongest town reads are Heartless and CB. No one else yet in my eyes is near confirmed town.

@Pablito - So far you have described Lucky as super lurky and unhelpful. So why do you think Lucky is town?

I wouldn't be surprised if Lucky is town. I don't think Lucky is town. I was really lazy and just going off of what Nacho said mostly, if I remember correctly. I don't have much of a read on Lucky. All I know is I asked Lucky a question a long time ago, but I never got a response. At this point, Lucky is not in my town-reads. Also, I don't remember saying Lucky was super lurky, but sure, sounds like something I would've said.

VOTE: enomis

Yea red i get you. I didn't expect this game to have no votes. I thought it would be voting in addition to gun. So it's like 2 person off every.
Now it's 18 person, 2 week deadline, no lynching, it just sucks. I am pretty much waiting for my gunbearer turn, if i get it.

I just saw the Victor's 455. Let's shoot Victor.
.
.
.
1) I don't mind the shot. Null read on him. I prefer Vic.
2) I think victor is scum, maxwell and wanderer is town. Red should be town too.

I think your readlist makes sense. Seems good.

enomis, start voting. It doesn't lead to a lynch, but I'd like to see your votes. If more people do it, it may start to mean something. I'm voting you to pressure you to vote. Honestly, if you don't start voting, I'd propose to never shooting you just to torture you in this game for not having anything to do. Eventually you'll have to do something to entertain yourself. I'm also voting you because in retrospect your post is the first to really start the wagon on Victor. RC started the vote, but you joined on, and 455 doesn't look like a bad post in retrospect. I'm noting right now, that if you are a goon, I wouldn't be surprised if your post points to Red, Maxwell or wanderer being a vengeful. Therefore, shooting enomis could give us information on Red and/or Maxwell.

In #519 Maxwell advocates for a vonflare shot instead of a Lucky shot. If Lucky flips goon, this could point to Maxwell being mafia as well.

In fact, re-reading pages 20 to end of D1, there's a lot of intentional distracting from the Lucky/RC pair being the main shots.

The third post advocating for a Victor gunshot is julien. This one comes out of nowhere as well. I am all for everyone piling on julien and seeing what we get.

FoS: julienvonwolfe

People who I wouldn't shoot ever and strongly urge not to shoot ever:
CB, Pablito, Heartless, Wanderer, RedCoyote
(aka if 4 of these players never hold a gun you will win the game)

I pledge, here and now, that I won't shoot anyone on this list should I have the gun. I encourage the others on this list to do the same. Anyone on this list can quote me on that.

I can't make the full pledge at this point. I will say that as long as more than one vengeful exist, I can feel comfortable pledging to not shoot anyone on the above list. I'm still sussing out my full town-reads and yes you four are high up there, but I'm not betting the game on it yet. If there's only one vengeful left, I'm not pledging nothing - at that point the most towny-looking person could be the most likely vengeful alive. If I ever get the gun though, I'd doubt it'd be with only one vengeful left alive.

Not quoting because mobile and lazy but, RC, do you think Heartless is scum or not? In that post above, you say "when I thought you were scum" to Heartless, meaning you don't think he's scum. Then you pointed to one of Heartless' post and said that this was textbook scum behavior, to the point that you would use it as an example. And then you said you would never, ever shoot anyone on Nacho's list.

What I'm getting from this is that you are still scumreading Heartless, but have decided to trust Nacho's reads completely. Doesn't that ring badly to you?

Nacho was already wrong once. While that doesn't mean all of his reads are wrong, far from it, it does make me wonder why you are trusting him so much. You've been doing it all game and I honestly still don't understand.

Maxwell, that post reeks of full scumminess. You have been my #1 target to this point, and this point confirms it. I'm not ready for you to be shot yet though, because I don't think it's the right move at this time. You are trying to get us to disbelieve a dead gunbearer just because he made

one

wrong shot after he was lead off his own reads by others? To me, it wasn't necessarily a shot that was made to be certain that he was going to get a 99% mafia goon, it was a shot that was made with his best information at the time the gun was shot that would give us the best position moving into D2. I don't see RC as fully trusting Nacho. However, Nacho has made a potentially game-breaking strategy and I see RC as respecting a strategy that could potentially get us very far in the game. I see you as trying to reduce that strategy. Of course, I'd be biased about that strategy though because I'm on the list and you aren't.

I would like to nominate enomis, julien, lucky, and vonflare as potential shots for today.

I see millar and jeanne as potentially bored scum who have completely given up. But, if the name of the game is only getting rid of the vengeful and we don't have to worry about the overall number of mafia, then I don't think there's any downside to keeping them around and letting them lurk for the rest of the game, provided that they're not vengeful mafia. I don't see either of them as vengeful though. And they can always be a deadline-shot if needed. Having lurking scum gives us a better laser focus on the rest of the field. Too many players at this point anyway.

I would like to see a shot that would give us more information. I think after a second shot, there should be some real good scum reads afterward.

[pablito]

Jeanne and Lucky seem only interested in pestering for a shot to fulfill their vigilante fantasies.

That is kind of why I joined the game. It's surprisingly freeing. I can wait a few days while the player list is whittled down and not worry about being accused of lurking because what can anyone do about it? Shoot me? Goal accomplished. I can't lose.

A few days? Doubtful. Go earn your shot.

unvote enomis

VOTE: vonflare

Since you haven't said much on the subject since advocating shooting me, I assumed that perhaps you might some new thoughts on the matter.

I disagree with that statement, as Heartless has attested to (though Antihero put it much more harshly than I would've). Immediately after the shot, 557, 558, 560 and 566 were my big takeaways. I think I laid out pretty clearly that I no longer advocate a Heartless shot (as I have in the past), and in fact I've gone as far as to advocate suggest that Heartless, pablito, CB, Wanderer and myself all commit to not shooting one another this game. This is a far cry from my positions prior to Nacho shooting you and revealing you as town, as CB was my only huge townread and Heartless and Wanderer were in my sights.

The shots I would like to see at this very moment would be either enomis, Flubber, julien or PN.

I'm going to retract my previous call for a Jeanne shot. I no longer get the sense that she's scum, nor do I now think the scum came into this game with the strategy to have the goons actively bait for a shot. Jeanne and Lucky seem only interested in pestering for a shot to fulfill their vigilante fantasies. Jeanne especially I see no town or scum motivation behind her posts. Further, she may be replaced with someone useful soon, so I would recommend laying off of her until we see if that happens or not.

---

From what I've read of your wallpost it looked like you had good points for heartless being scum and then rejected those to sheep nacho. From pablito's most recent post it looks like I missed something Nacho suggested that I'm going to have to ISO later to get back on track

Well, I encourage you to skim over my new position on shooting Heartless and give me a better argument than "if you can make a scum case then you should shoot them". This reads like all sorts of bad to me, Flubber. It reads like you're trying to unduly influence my shot. If you think Heartless is scum, then I encourage you to convince me (and others) that that's the case. I don't like your "behind-the-scenes" attempt at trying to tug at my consciousness and more or less whisper in my ear. 576 strikes me as all sorts of slimy, even if it's out in the open.

Another thing, it reads like you know my alignment. I don't recall you ever making any big sweeping statements that you think I am so town that you know I would get the gun if ever shot....

I find it interesting that RC in 643 made a similar statement to CB back in #287 which won CB strong town-cred. I don't like that statement. That being said, I still have good feelings about RC so far.

Strongest town reads right now: Heartless, CB, RC, Feirei, wanderer

Strongest scum reads right now: Lucky, Maxwell, PN

Reads conditional upon seeing others flip: West9, Flubbernugget

People I don't want shot because it will torture them and maybe they will participate at some point in time: Lucky, millar, enomis, jeanne, Feirei

People I would like to see shot the most: vonflare, julien

I'd rather see vonflare shot than julien. Most of the action on vonflare was early in the game and therefore we would get truer reads on scum if vonflare flips mafia. momentum on julien's wagon seems to have come late D1 and early D2 - therefore I think it's more likely that scum could be on that more than town.

[pablito]

Victor. I don't get you.

[pablito]

First matter of business. Nacho proposed a short list of "do not shoot" people. I want to see those on the list to comment on whether they agree with this plan or not. I also want those not on the list to comment on whether they think following Nacho's idea of a "do not shoot" list.

In the scumlist (bottom 7), I could very possibly see Perpetual Nonsense or millar being town the easiest since the reads there seem based mostly on incomplete information.
The more incomplete townreads are West9 and enomis.

These are the players I would like to see post more.

I'm also claiming intent for the Lucky shot sometime tomorrow. I'm going to mostly be busy this weekend so would rather probably wait the weekend out to give people time to post and react to that, but I also realize people are probably getting pretty impatient and need blood soon, and don't think it's a shot that will kill me so w/e. I'll make a post including where my personal experience is factoring into reads so that you know if I'd like you to give a read or a point more emphasis than you would normally. This readslist has most of my logic in where I'm standing on most of the playerlist, it feels mostly correct although not perfect so while I wouldn't follow it to a T, I would make sure that you really thought long and hard before shooting

wanderer, CB, Heartless, or pablito,

and that vonflare/Victor/julien/Jeanne all die at your earliest convenience.

The only thing that changes about my reads list is probably that lucky is much townier now that I started interacting with him (posting when threatened to be shot could possibly be a scumtell yes, but starting to seem excited and trolling more when threatened to be shot comes from a townier place) so I won't be shooting him.

The shots I feel comfortable taking are:
Julienvonwolfe, Vonflare, Jeanne, Victor

The shots I would take if all of those were dead and wouldn't feel bad about shooting:
Millar, Flubbernugget

People who I wouldn't shoot ever and strongly urge not to shoot ever:

CB, Pablito, Heartless, Wanderer, RedCoyote

(aka if 4 of these players never hold a gun you will win the game)

[pablito]

EBWOP: ...on whether they think following Nacho's idea of a "do not shoot" list is a good idea or not (not the names on the list itself).

This is the week I have entirely off, so expect to see me more than usual.

I have no idea whom I will shoot right now. Sometime after the weekend I will post a shortlist of targets or people I would prefer not to shoot - so that we can focus our efforts a bit better. Those that choose to not comment on the above post may be included on my shooting short list. How people respond to the above post may also influence my short list.

While I have posted a list that Heartless copied, I am not following that during my stint. That was a list I made that I would've followed if I were not the GB. As the GB, my mindset may change. When I was just a regular townie, there were stances that I took that attempted to appeal to the GB.

[pablito]

Good discussion so far. Thanks guys.

Also, what are your guys' expectations of a gunbearer? I have my own ideas, but I think it's also good to get a clear idea.

I currently have an idea of certain players I won't shoot, but that's all I have for now. I will explain my rationale for those later once I reveal them.

[pablito]

I like that Flubber has come more alive.

vonflare, do you have any opinions on Feirei?

Feirei - I have yet to see much of your read on anyone except for vonflare. Care to share any town reads at the moment?

[pablito]

I'm going to try to ask some questions and put forth some ideas for discussion soon. In the meanwhile, everyone please post your 2-4 strongest town reads right now with reasons why. Most people have done so, but not everyone. These lists may have changed as well over time. Based on these lists of town-reads, I'll expand my "will not shoot D3" list to coincide with my own choices for town reads as well.

[pablito]

Also... within the town-reads list that you post, please list which one of the grouping is your strongest town read at this time.

[pablito]

So right now there's 16 alive players, 15 unconfirmed and 1 confirmed. There are 7 scum, this means only 8 of you are town. I have just below 50% chance of hitting scum. I also intend to go as far as possible within deadline for discussion.

Referenda 2.1

That those listed as likely to be town by Nachomomma8 (due to searching of town tells), should not be shot. These players include: CB, pablito, wanderer-nl, Heartless, RedCoyote. Furthermore, RC asks for those on the list to pledge to not shoot the others on the list as well.
YEA: RedCoyote, Heartless, wanderer-nl(?), West9
NAY: MaxwellPuckett (not the ppl listed at least)
Deferred: CB, Flubbernugget, julienvonflare, Jeanne11, Perpetual Nonsense*
Ignored: millar13, Lucky2u, enomis, Feirei, vonflare

*Deferred being players who made some type of mention of stating they did not have the time to post or acknowledged the subject but did not vote.
**Ignored being players who completely did not make any type of comment on the post, but still posted something that wasn't a prodge.

If I read you wrong, please explain. I understand that putting everyone to categories also can be seen as limiting your true viewpoint, but at least we have a basic understanding.

I appreciate that Maxwell has posted that he does not agree with the plan as it was outlined and it has also created a lot of discussion about Nacho's town tells. To be fair, I think Nacho was a good gunbearer up until when the shortlist was created. Then he was a real crap gunbearer. Good at facilitating discussion - but crap at strategy for the shot. The shortlist created was on 2 players whom almost no one commented on - and Nacho didn't do much to push people to comment on those two people, but at least both RC and Lucky did amp up the discussion then. I don't think there's much info to be had analyzing anything about anyone picking either RC or Lucky during that time. Unless 1 of them is a vengeful, I doubt any mafia would have tried to stick a neck out to save one of them during D1.

Thanks Flubber for posting town-reads. Greatly appreciated. I'm liking your activity during the last few days. Helps me get a better read on others because of your posting activity.

Also Flubber, maybe I missed it, but could you please comment on whether you agree with RC's interpretation of Nacho's "do not shoot" list and whether you think it's a good idea?

[pablito]

@pablito I like the idea but when we start hitting vengeful townies there's a problem with it

A good, near-confirmed town in exchange for a vengeful is a necessary sacrifice to make. If the game is now 9 vs. 3 (with 4 neutral-consequence shots), then let's keep making that risk.

[pablito]

Please keep answering any back-logged questions I have for you guys.

I am announcing that the following are being taken off my list and I will probably not shoot them during this day phase.

CB, wanderer-nl, Heartless, RedCoyote - For this DP, I'm honoring the compact and I would only shoot one of them if two vengeful are gone. I'm not guaranteeing that they're all town though. I just don't think the focus should be there.

jeanne11, julienvonwolfe - If there's a replacement, I don't think it's smart to make a shot until everything settles.

Those that I am still considering to shoot:
enomis, Feirei, Flubbernugget, Lucky2u, MaxwellPuckett, millar13, Perpetual Nonsense, vonflare, West9

Everyone please nominate 1-3 people I should add to my shortlist. I plan on releasing a shortlist of 2-4 in the next few days. So if you have a strong case on someone that I might have been blind to, please let me know right now.

Also for those that have not given me their top town choices, please do so now.

Also for those that have not answered Referendum 2.1, please do so.

That those listed as likely to be town by Nachomomma8 (due to searching of town tells), should not be shot. These players include: CB, pablito, wanderer-nl, Heartless, RedCoyote. Furthermore, RC asks for those on the list to pledge to not shoot the others on the list as well.
YEA: RedCoyote, Heartless, wanderer-nl(?), West9
NAY: MaxwellPuckett, CB (not the ppl listed at least)
Deferred: Flubbernugget, julienvonflare, Jeanne11, Perpetual Nonsense*
Ignored: millar13, Lucky2u, ENOMIS, Feirei, vonflare

*Deferred being players who made some type of mention of stating they did not have the time to post or acknowledged the subject but did not vote.
**Ignored being players who completely did not make any type of comment on the post, but still posted something that wasn't a prodge.

[pablito]

Side note to CB: I'm going to go ahead and brag

a little bit

OK, I'm going to brag a lot and say you don't get a record like ours by being hopelessly dissonant. Click into our wiki sometime to see what I mean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heartless Couldn't find it.

There's a mafiascum wiki. Here's Heartless http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Heartless

[pablito]

Those that I am still considering to shoot:
enomis, Feirei, Flubbernugget, Lucky2u, MaxwellPuckett, millar13, Perpetual Nonsense, vonflare, West9

Everyone please nominate 1-3 people I should add to my shortlist. I plan on releasing a shortlist of 2-4 in the next few days. So if you have a strong case on someone that I might have been blind to, please let me know right now.

Nominate people to add, specifically? Well, the only person I would add is julien. I don't see how a replacement will get me to change my mind about that slot. Heck, you've got 50+% of the player list up there, yeah? Do you want me to help narrow it down for you with my top three?

Flubber, julien and PN would be my top three. Nothing I've seen has really moved me off of that. I'm satisfied with any of those people in your list getting shot, however.

Actually, scratch that, I'd probably take Max out. I think he's been very consistent over the course of this game, whereas I think as scum he may mold his opinion to fit with whichever person held the gun at the time. Max's consistency tells me he's genuinely interested in finding new information to help him scumhunt more accurately. I'd also probably take Lucky out. Hell, Lucky and millar both sound like they're just biding their time until they can get the gun. I personally wouldn't take the chance on those two (plus Jeanne).

Nah, I'm not shooting julien. Take that one out and you have nominated 2 people. I'm saying of the list of 9 players, whom you would want on my shortlist. So Right now, I'm assuming you want Flubber and PN.

Also @Heartless, I'm not shooting julien. So right now that means you're only nominating PN to be shot. You okay with that or would you rather give an extra name as well?

@enomis you answered the question correctly. Did you want to give any reasons?

@Lucky2u - can you contribute something that is not about you? I'm ready to shoot you right now for that exact reason.

[pablito]

Suzune, welcome to the game! Thanks for giving some great posts. I'm excited to see more from you. No way I'm shooting Suzune (r. julienvonflare) this DP, but I would not be opposed for the following DP (provided that I survive this one). I doubt I would shoot Suzune unless I had lots of good info though.

@Flubber - so break the game and obvscum - who are your obvscum? Also how do you feel that mafia would be treating your obvscum to make them obvscum?

@Maxwell - what makes you feel that Suzune is a super confirmed town in comparison to Heartless or wanderer (one of which you do not think is super town the other which you have said yes).

@PN - you mention flubber, which I can respect that shot because there's enough info on flubber to doubt flubber, if you swing that way. But you also would mention shooting jeanne - who is being replaced and wanderer and CB, both of whom are heavily touted by others as being town? Your post piques interest. Please share more on your rationale for shooting any of those 3. Also who would you

not

shoot? ie - whom are your town reads?

[pablito]

@Maxwell - I misinterpreted you saying "no one shoot this slot" as you thinking Suzune is "super confirmed town". I still think you are portraying that. Also could you share more on your views on West and enomis? Specifically can you share with me why you think that West and/or enomis haven't ignored some of the town topics instead of going on their own agendas?

[pablito]

My 'no one shoot this slot' was saying that I think her opening posts are towny. I think it's going too far to say she's super-confirmed town, or even my strongest townread. It was just an exaggerated way of saying I liked her opening post, I didn't mean for it to come off as anything besides that.

I said I don't think they should be in the list there because the others in it are much better options. I'll go into more detail tomorrow, they're not exactly town-reads and I don't think their play is at a level where I want them considered to be shot in the same way that PN, Von, Millar, Lucky, etc. are being considered. I don't find them particularly scummy.

What town topics have West and enomis ignored?

I'm asking for you to look at them and to tell me if they have ignored specific topics or not. I'm not telling you what I think yet. I'm only sharing opinions of people I've struck from the list so far.

[pablito]

EBWOP: Maxwell - the reason I overexaggerated and interpreted you saying "Suzune is confirmed" rather than "no one shoot this slot" is because I'm the GB and you're setting something up in your language for beyond this current GB. That to me is showing overconfidence, overreaching, and/or scum-telling. I also look forward to hearing more about your list of reads.

Suzune vs. CB - keep it up.

As such, can I ask Heartless to come back to try to tear apart PN?

And maybe Flubber to go back on vonflare. That energy is greatly appreciated and I wish it weren't just specific to dyads here. It's almost as if town (or mafia) is setting up some interesting dyads of town vs. mafia...or I hope not mafia vs. mafia.

As such, I hope to see Maxwell tear someone apart and can't wait to see who it could be.

wanderer-nl and vonflare already had their stints previously in the game, so I think they deserve a break from the outright argumentation for now.

[pablito]

player	town reads	nominations
wanderer-nl	#798 CB>enomis>Flubber>RC	#704 von>lucky>millar>jeanne>flubber>feirei
Heartless		#710 jeanne>flubber-von-millar-lucky-feirei also julien in #624 but later goes in #811 to shoot either PN or julien
RedCoyote	#712 Jeanne also #808 asks for Maxwell to be off the "9 still on the list"	#808 Flubber-julien-PN
Feirei	#773Heartless-flubber-wanderer	#725 vonflare
Flubbernugget	#794Wanderer>CB
MaxwellPuckett	#796Wanderer>CB-RC also in #815 asks for enomis and West to be taken off the "9 still on the list"	#815 vonflare and PN
enomis	#797 Wanderer-Maxwell	#805 PN-millar-lucky
CB	#801 wanderer-West9	#834 enomis-vonflare
West9	#806 CB-RC-Heartless	#806 vonflare-PN
Suzune*	#826 Heartless	#826 Feirei-miller
PN		#826 Flubber>Jeanne-wanderer-CB (cond. upon flubber filp mafia)
lucky, vonflare, millar, jeanne's replacement	so far worthless	lurkers that deserve purgatory

*Suzune's reads based off catch-up reading and not due to my questions
**Note 792 is when I specifically asked for townreads, but before then there was an organic conversation about reads and I also included those in the table.

[pablito]

Nah, I'm not shooting

julien

suzune

.

Why not? Is it still because you want replacement friction to settle down?

I want to give time for reads (for better or worse) to grown on Suzune. Even if I feel that Suzune is the closest thing to 99% scum, I feel comfortable this DP in making the shot that will give us the best flip for good positioning for the future. I will likely project my shot well in advance to hear information on all sides on this read. I don't feel that a Suzune shot will give us much information right now.

It is like you are running a cock fighting ring

Yes, please place all bets. I got 3-1 on Heartless, 5-1 on PN, 3-2 on a tie.

Right now, I'm going to strike off a few from my list. I plan on making a super short list soon too.

Those that I am still considering to shoot:
enomis, Feirei, Flubbernugget, Lucky2u, MaxwellPuckett, millar13, Perpetual Nonsense, vonflare, West9

Okay.

Feirei - I'm getting a good sense from Feirei and I also liked d-c-l a lot. But most of all, my biggest town read is on Heartless right now, and Heartless says Feirei feels town, so I'm going to agree with that too. Plus, I'd like to see a lot more from Feirei before I fully throw Feirei into my town-pile. Right now Feirei is on the cusp of it. I get a good sense from Feirei's jabs that they're coming from town role more than scum. It does not feel like it's sheeping anyone at all.

Lucky2u and millar13 - These two guys don't deserve any of my attention and they are doing nothing to earn it. They're noise and whether they're town or mafia, they're not being helpful for the town. I do not want to waste one of my shots on them. I have nothing against someone making this shot though. Also, I don't think they should earn the GB if they're town, because they've done nothing. If they're mafia, I believe they're goons and there's no reason to shoot them yet.

I feel like I'm going to regret this, but I'm going to take off Flubbernugget off the shot list for this DP. Flubber has come alive in a huge way for me during this DP from the beginning to the end. There's enough activity and enough aggressiveness that I'm strongly reconsidering my read on Flubber. I am open to expanding and explicating on my read on Flubber. But from the field, I would much prefer if you try to avoid mentioning Flubber for now. I'd much rather you try to convince me on who I should shoot of all the others. I will comment more on Flubber later before I make a shot.

Those that I am still considering to shoot:
enomis,

Feirei, Flubbernugget, Lucky2u,

MaxwellPuckett,

millar13

, Perpetual Nonsense, vonflare, West9

This leaves enomis, MaxwellPuckett, Perpetual Nonsense, vonflare and West9. I have 2 on this list I want to take off, but I'm going to wait a bit too. But I'm going to give a chance for people to revise any nominations list and make any last minute arguments for or against someone else in case. An initial short-list of 5 is enough to get some good discussion, but I'd like to make a final list of 3 by end of weekend or Saturday if possible.

I feel that there's several obvious mafia goons lingering around, but I don't feel comfortable just making a safe shot, much like Nacho would've wanted to do. With the newly explained win condition (and it makes much more sense now), it means that no matter what, we only need one guaranteed town read in the end. As long as we all agree to keep that one person alive by the end of the game, by process of elimination, we'll get rid of all vengeful and goons. Easier said than done though. Especially, since I'm starting to believe that in the list of 5 that Nacho made (pablito, wanderer, CB, RC, Heartless), there's one mafia, and maybe one vengeful.

[pablito]

I feel that there's several obvious mafia goons lingering around, but I don't feel comfortable just making a safe shot, much like Nacho would've wanted to do. With the newly explained win condition (and it makes much more sense now), it means that no matter what, we only need one guaranteed town read in the end. As long as we all agree to keep that one person alive by the end of the game, by process of elimination, we'll get rid of all vengeful and goons. Easier said than done though. Especially, since I'm starting to believe that in the list of 5 that Nacho made (pablito, wanderer, CB, RC, Heartless), there's one mafia, and maybe one vengeful.

2 scum in 4 people? Really? :/

I'd really like to have a dialogue with you about this. Do you think it's on account of the mod's announcement? CB and Heartless have only continually grown more townie to me. Wanderer, eh, I'm not very comfortable with Wanderer, frankly, but I think it's in the town's best interests for me to table that suspicion.

I don't know what it is, maybe it's the power that goes to your head when you get the gun, but there's this inclination to want to prove Nacho wrong. Victor had it, and now it's seemingly seeping into you, pablito. I strongly, strongly think it's the wrong thing to focus on Nacho's "do not shoot" list. I also strongly disagree with your comment about not feeling comfortable taking a safe shot. By all means, take the safe shot! Scum is scum is scum. Build momentum for goodness sakes. One scum flip would do us wonders right now.

To clarify, I meant 1 mafia - of which it may be a vengeful. I am using "goons" for the 4 and "vengeful" for the 3. I think there's 1 - and RC, you might be that 1. However, I do NOT think we should focus on this during this DP, and you have my word that I will NOT shoot any of you 4 during this DP.

I want to Nacho wrong because he was foolish to go after guaranteed scum. I will NOT take the safe shot, because I feel that Nacho tried to do that and got screwed. Scum is scum is scum, you are right. But I do not think that shooting a mafia goon is going to get the information necessary to do good scum hunting. I fully expect vengeful to bus the goons or that the goons are trying to be the safe shot. This will not give anyone any information on the vengeful, and it only gives more time for the vengeful to hide in the cloak of towniness. I have an idea on two vengeful right now and I think that there's some evidence for it. You won't hear it yet. But at least one of those will be on my shortlist of 3.

@RC - If the majority of town wants me to shoot someone (75%ish), how do you think I should proceed with this?

I want to give time for reads (for better or worse) to grown on Suzune. Even if I feel that Suzune is the closest thing to 99% scum, I feel comfortable this DP in making the shot that will give us the best flip for good positioning for the future. I will likely project my shot well in advance to hear information on all sides on this read. I don't feel that a Suzune shot will give us much information right now.

Suzune, I'm not saying I think you're 99% scum. I honestly don't know how to read you, and I don't want to spend my time reading you yet. I appreciate your contributions and want you to do it even more. I like what you're doing, but I don't think my energy should be spent on analyzing you yet. I'm just saying, that you are safe during this DP, and possibly for more. So don't worry, and be calm, and please contribute just as you have been before.

I feel very confident at this point that my shot will be on one of the five that I have not yet eliminated from my list.

[pablito]

I'd really like to have a dialogue with you about this. Do you think it's on account of the mod's announcement? CB and Heartless have only continually grown more townie to me. Wanderer, eh, I'm not very comfortable with Wanderer, frankly, but I think it's in the town's best interests for me to table that suspicion.

I don't know what it is, maybe it's the power that goes to your head when you get the gun, but there's this inclination to want to prove Nacho wrong. Victor had it, and now it's seemingly seeping into you, pablito. I strongly, strongly think it's the wrong thing to focus on Nacho's "do not shoot" list. I also strongly disagree with your comment about not feeling comfortable taking a safe shot. By all means, take the safe shot! Scum is scum is scum. Build momentum for goodness sakes. One scum flip would do us wonders right now.

No my town reads have not changed since the mod announcement. Some of these announced town reads and nominations have given me cause to be suspicious. I'd say there's about a 75% chance that all four of you are town. That would give my potential gun shot a high schance of hitting scum.

I don't think I'm doing much different than how I would've acted if Nacho had ever been GB. I don't feel that my actions are unlike anything I've done before with focusing more on process than content.

[pablito]

I feel like I'm going to regret this, but I'm going to take off Flubbernugget off the shot list for this DP. Flubber has come alive in a huge way for me during this DP from the beginning to the end. There's enough activity and enough aggressiveness that I'm strongly reconsidering my read on Flubber. I am open to expanding and explicating on my read on Flubber. But from the field, I would much prefer if you try to avoid mentioning Flubber for now. I'd much rather you try to convince me on who I should shoot of all the others. I will comment more on Flubber later before I make a shot.

Spoiler:

I'm not entirely convinced Flubber is town, I'm not terribly convinced Flubber is mafia. Because Flubber has only come alive during this DP, I'd rather hold off until more of a read can develop. Flubber is in my list of more likely to be vengeful than goon list, though.

So, Heartless (yes, both of youse), I strongly believe you're town, but I also would like to focus on my stronger reads for now. I read your argument, and agree, but don't think it's strong enough. Furthermore, I'd prefer to focus on someone who hasn't had yet much focus during this DP. I'd like you to revisit this argument in a different DP though, even if I'm not around.

[pablito]

Those that I am still considering to shoot:
enomis,

Feirei, Flubbernugget, Lucky2u,

MaxwellPuckett,

millar13

, Perpetual Nonsense, vonflare, West9

This leaves enomis, MaxwellPuckett, Perpetual Nonsense, vonflare and West9. I have 2 on this list I want to take off, but I'm going to wait a bit too. But I'm going to give a chance for people to revise any nominations list and make any last minute arguments for or against someone else in case. An initial short-list of 5 is enough to get some good discussion, but I'd like to make a final list of 3 by end of weekend or Saturday if possible.

I feel that there's several obvious mafia goons lingering around, but I don't feel comfortable just making a safe shot, much like Nacho would've wanted to do. With the newly explained win condition (and it makes much more sense now), it means that no matter what, we only need one guaranteed town read in the end. As long as we all agree to keep that one person alive by the end of the game, by process of elimination, we'll get rid of all vengeful and goons. Easier said than done though. Especially, since I'm starting to believe that in the list of 5 that Nacho made (pablito, wanderer, CB, RC, Heartless), there's one mafia, and maybe one vengeful.

Ok time to take off two more from the list. I wanted more people to respond, but I'll be gone all day today and unsure when I'll get back tomorrow. And I want at least a week discussion to talk about this short-list and who I should shoot.

So by process of elimination (by not focusing on Maxwell or vonflare) and based on your town and nominations list, I want us to now focus on the following three:

Perpetual Nonsense, West9, enomis.

Perpetual Nonsense - PN was on a lot of nominations list and based on the information there, I think there needs to be some good discussion on this one. PN is someone that has only recently come into radar, and it seemed that only Heartless had PN on the gun list yesterday. So I'd like to hear more about how this read has developed for some people - especially those that put PN on the nominations list during D3 but not any other day.

West9 - seems like West has been in the "blind spot" and there were several people hoping to make cases on West, but nothing strong has appeared. Now is the time to see those cases, and why this case is or isn't as strong as it was before. I've seen several say West could be scum, and then others also saying West seems very town with genuine posts and appropriate pointedness. West seems to be consistent in activity, but I'd like to see more so that we can see what people say about West.

enomis - this has been someone who's always coming up as being a target, but at the same time, enomis has also been responsive to follow-up questions today by me. enomis is also someone who is seen as both town and scum (or even null read) by various people. I'd like to hear more about everyone's thoughts about enomis and if there's been significant changes in your read of enomis at any time, and if there's anything this DP that has caused any changes.

I'd like everyone to give me a rank list of who'd you like to see me most shoot to who'd you like to see me to not shoot - with reasons why including all of your past views on these people too.

I would like to focus on these three, because I think the most information is going to be had from talking about these three. I think there's obvscum elsewhere, but that's not where I want my attention right now. I think in this list of three, there's likely to be at least one vengeful, and hopefully more than one mafia.

I will keep asking questions of all at the moment throughout the week as I can find more, but for now I encourage you all to put those three on the spot and ask more questions and to try to convince me who should be shot. I don't feel that it's my sole responsibility to ask those three the questions necessary to shoot them, and I'd like your help.

[pablito]

Feel free to use votes as well to help me know your true thoughts.

[pablito]

Welcome to the game Titus and Kari!

CB - I am officially noting that you are distracting from the shortlist and are opening up conversations that I have specifically asked to not be opened. Get on track please.

wanderer and enomis - yes. I somewhat knew what your past reads were on these three. I am also challenging you to look into them again and see what you think about them now. I want you and everyone else to take a second look and formulate cases (even if new) on these three. enomis, you really should try the most, since you're on that shortlist. I get that you'd rather I shoot PN over West. But if I don't hear why you think West is not as scummy, then it's not helping your case either, because it may make you look scummier to me.

Hmm, an idea here.

The gun person picks a pool. The gun person may change the pool on who to shoot as time progresses. We all talk about our reads within that pool. It forces association and narrows focus. It's an old trick that I used awhile back. The downside to it was that it disrupted naturally forming wagons. This game doesn't have that though.

For instance, Gun Person says Adam, Charlie and Brett are all lurking. Pick one for me to shoot.

That's exactly what pablito is doing. Titus, we don't need a system. We've already got that. Please spend your time here forming reads.

CB, Anti will have to answer your questions since those paragraphs are his.

Yes, Titus, listen to Heartless (TTH - my #1 town read).

Also please see #839

[pablito]

CB - I am officially noting that you are distracting from the shortlist and are opening up conversations that I have specifically asked to not be opened. Get on track please.

I didn't realize it was going to be that structured.

Yes, I want it structured. Once I'm dead, there's hopefully going to be a wealth of information based on the structure from this DP.

However, CB, I like you, so you're the only one I'll excuse from going off track at the moment (and Heartless, but that's mainly because I'm fanboying TTH). Also, both you and Suzune have posted. Also, I actually liked your "distraction" of seeing more of Suzune on Lucky. Now that you've posted your read on the 3, feel free to carry on how you'd like. So I'm okay with you two going off track in your own world now.

Thank you Suzune, as well, for responding to my request. Major non-shooting posts for conforming to the structure I've chosen.

@Titus, just like what both Suzune and Heartless have said, I have a shortlist of three I'd prefer to shoot right now.

You're welcome to also give me your townreads, but I'd also like to hear from the list of 3 who you think is scummiest and why. This might be an easier way to enter than having to look at everyone for now. I've pledged to not shoot you during this DP, but right now I'm not seeing how you're an improvement over whom you replaced.

If I have time tonight, I'll look over more.

[pablito]

EBWOP: *non-shooting points.

[pablito]

So, shot preference: PN over Enomis.

Also, I feel like I should share this now, as being on this shortlist means that there's a decent enough chance of me getting shot: Pablito really seemed to have a change in heart about his scumreads after getting the gun, and I can't say if that's going to happen to me or not, but I'm pretty sure that if I get shot, I'm going to shoot vonflare within a day or two of getting the gun.

West9 - how do you feel that I've had a change in heart about my scumreads and what do you think about that? I'm curious to hear more about that from you. Also, thank you for telling me your target if you have the gun.

Why didn't anyone take me seriously when I was suspecting enomis? West looks more and more town to me. I don't trust Suzunne yet. Titus, (hi, btw) I dunno, no real reads yet, keeps asking for opinions, too bad my meta is of an ongoing but I'm not comfortable with how Titus entered this game.
Shoot PN, don't shoot west (yet) and enomis, well I don't know anymore. He did fall awefully quiet when I stopped scumreading him so maybe now he feels safe enough to lurk again? enomis, again, translate your early-game posts for us.

@Wanderer - he's on the shortlist - do you think he feels safe even on this shortlist? I also think that enomis ought to translate the early game posts.

[pablito]

...
The conclusion that I'm coming to with this ISO is that there are better shots than enomis, I think (PN being one of them), but I'd like him at the very least to talk about his attitude towards this game. He just really seems like he doesn't want to play or engage at all, and I don't know if that's sincere or faked.


So, shot preference: PN over Enomis.
...

West9 - Okay, so you advocate PN over enomis. What are the other better shots than enomis? Also, what do you think of Maxwell?

[pablito]

Pablito if you have such strong reads then fucking make your damn shot.

Where did I say I had strong reads?
How is that helpful to the town?
That being said, I think I have a plan now and may not wait until the very end to make a shot. But as I said before, I'd like to project that shot well in advance to give any last comments just in case I go. I'm still waiting for some more comments on shortlist before I announce the plan though.

Finally got into iso's..

...

Vonflare: I'm being lazy and copy something from my own 224:

Vonflare is looking very defensive to me. Town should always stay open to changing their reads when new info appears. His 222 seems overly defensive and frustrated and is like an excuse for suddenly changing his reads. Because in 221 he tells Flubber he doesn't have a scumread on him, but in his readslist he does.. Yeah, he can be shot.

And from 239:

Yeah so I was just thinking that it's actually kind of weird Vonflare declared me town because he could have easily painted me scum, but that doesn't really matter in this setup. If the GB shoots other town, GB dies and target becomes new GB. I have absolutely no experience with this kind of setup, but my prediction is scum is going to be very careful when FoS'ing or even voting a GB-target.

I'll explain this one a little more since there seemed to be some confusion.
If Vonflare is scum and I'm scum: he wants me clear so he calls me town.
If Vonflare is scum and I'm town: in a normal day/night setup he would likely accuse me of a weird vote on dcl and scumread me, hoping town agrees and get me misslynched. Doesn't work in this setup because town doesn't decide in the end, but the GB. In this setup, I'm going on the assumption scum are not going to accuse town on little things because scum already know who's town and are going to be careful lying.
If Vonflare is town and I am town: Maybe he just hasn't thought a lot about what my content was and just based his townread on the fact that I had reads at all.
If Vonflare is town and I am scum: Same as above.
With these explanations it looks like I have no reason to think Vonflare is scum anymore. But I don't like how he handles his readslist, he posted it and then changes it right after. Yes, reads change, but usually not that fast.

west: 171 feels more like filler-questions, but it was early and one of the first more serious posts I think (a lot of fluff the first pages!) so in that light it's ok I guess. 194 and 202 is west pushing on Vonflare's being ninja'd. Which is ok to me because Vonflare kept whining he got ninja'd. Then in 208 west votes Vonflare because of Ninja thing, and oh also because of the worthless readslist. I don't know west, I've come up with circumstances that make it ok what you did but it still feels like you picked something out to focus on (re Vonflare) and are keeping to it. You're not really responding to the other things that were said about Vonflare. 283 I liked his question to Heartless because I felt the same way, but I don't get the part to Nonsense about the breaking rules thing. I have this feeling west is trying to look critical but isn't really. Would like to see him share more thoughts. Right now null with a good chance of turning scum.

The difference between enomis, jeanne, lucky, coyote as null-reads on no-content, and millar and a little Victor as null-scum on no-content is because millar and Victor have voted more than once.

Interesting reading back on your iso list form a long time ago. You have changed that list significantly since then and the progression has been natural. Regarding west though, I continue to feel that this interaction felt critical but isn't really and is a big reason I still feel weird about West:

Just as much as others are suspecting wanderer for not doing scum-hunting, I'm getting Maxwell as being half-assed scum-hunting. Which is why I asked the question of a voting system. If I felt Maxwell was pure town, I'd've wanted Maxwell to actually try to implement something. But I don't get the sense that Maxwell wants that. So prove me wrong Maxwell and force everyone to look at certain players through some type of referendum or focused-voting system.

You lost me here. Are you scumreading everyone who isn't suggesting a voting system? If not, why hold Max up to that standard? Or am I completely misreading this?

No, I'm scum-reading people who agreed with it but aren't doing enough with it or laying down the foundation to pressure people heavily like the system entails. That being said, I wonder why this makes me think that you're defending Maxwell? Please share with me your views on Maxwell, west.

There's something about West putting down Max's name here that gets me every time.

[pablito]

I like this discussion on Heartless' list. I agree with most, but I think some of those lurker scum are not necessarily mafia with RC, Suzune or enomis (from least likeliest to likeliest) being on there instead.

Anyway, I'm changing my short list. I give up on trying to pretend I'm ignoring Maxwell. Maxwell made a post and it wasn't on the shortlist or West and I feel that Maxwell is ignoring and actively providing fluff the entire day. I feel that the entire mafia thread must be about "OMG - Pablito didn't put Maxwell on the shortlist, we actually succeeded in completely ignoring the fact that pablito had Maxwell as his #1 suspect since D1 and we distracted the entire town from even thinking about Maxwell!"

This is why Heartless is my #1 town read. I feel that I clearly have been tunneling on Maxwell the entire time up until I was shot. Not a single mention was made about Maxwell during the entire day...even when I purposely left him off my shortlist. If I were scum and I knew that Maxwell was town and I could keep pushing pablito little by little to try to convince him that Maxwell was a vengeful and worth it, I would make the smallest mention of Maxwell and I would stop pushing the PN agenda so much. The only person to even show anything close to doubt on Maxwell is Heartless. Either this means that Heartless is the assigned mafia to try to get me to focus on Maxwell, or that (imo the more likely situation) Maxwell is scum and very likely vengeful that mafia are intentionally trying to distract me from.

While I don't agree that Heartless should've posted my list so early during D3 - it shows me that

ignoring

and

avoiding

has been the scummier action than anything else. Which is specifically why I also added those categories in the referenda. Those that deferred gave me more of a town read than those that are purposely avoiding answering the question. Prior to reading Maxwell's ISO today, I felt that he was actively participating and felt very confused. I re-read the ISO of Maxwell during D3 and felt completely disappointed. Maxwell has been very active and very opinionated, but today it felt very lacklustre. Furthermore, Maxwell continues to backpedal a lot whenever he's pressured.

I am now revising the shortlist (and this is in line with the plan I had earlier today): West9 is too much of a town read for too many people. Either this means West9 is truly town or is vengeful mafia or (less likely) a high-value mafia goon. However, West9's posts today give me enough reason to defer making that shot. I honestly came into D3 thinking I would shoot West9, but I think there's enough info to make a later decision. And too many people are slacking for me to wait longer on leaving West on the list.

I'm adding both vonflare and MaxwellPuckett to the shortlist. I will shoot one of those four (along with original shortlisters enomis and PN). I'd much rather shoot one of von or Maxwell though. And since I don't want to be in the game too much longer, I'd rather shoot Maxwell first honestly.

So now that things were stagnant - let's see what happens.

[pablito]

My case on Maxwell:

Bolded because I want ArcAngel9 to confirm:

About the win condition. Since scum has no night kill, they have to eliminate every townie. The 'or nothing can prevent the same' would be when there's one townie alive and at least one vengeful alive, right? Also, is it a tie when there's just a townie and a vengeful mafia left, or would that be a maf win?

In any case, I agree with Wanderer. Vengefuls are the priority target, because they have to be eliminated sometime and our chances are best if we do that at the beginning. Ofc shooting mafia in general is preferred, and I wouldn't know what differences in play there would be between vengefuls are regular maf.

-Null Tell. This could easily be scum trying to look town or town truly having the question at that time. However, Maxwell seemed to be the first to mention needing to shoot vengefuls - yet also didn't mention anything at that time about what a vengeful would look like to him. This was shortly after wanderer also made a mention to thinking vengefuls should be shoot first (but then wanderer later says that goons would want vengefuls shot first? that progression did not feel right - and was my first town tell on wanderer)

I like CB's posts so far. Good town feelings from them.

Heartless' active scumhunting is also promising.

Enomis' shitposting was endearing but now I'm kinda yawning at it. I don't think it's scummy but I don't like it in general.

I think my only proper scumread at the moment is RedCoyote.


This game is interesting in that shooting mafia does not actually advance our win condition. It only does if we hit vengeful. But shooting town is bad, obviously, and there's a time limit. So the normal mafia are there as safe hits. I think this means the normal mafia will play less carefully, as CB said. I think the vengefuls will avoid risky posts. Of course me saying this might change all that, I don't know. If there are any actual differences between the playstyle of the different kinds of mafia, they will be very slight. I DO think this will matter endgame, though, just maybe not as much now, with so many players to sift through. For now, finding a safe shot for nacho is priority. (I'd count vengefuls as a safe shot of course)

-Four pages later, Maxwell describes his belief on how vengeful look. This is also how Maxwell has played. Also Heartless is promising at this point. enomis has also been seen as "endearing" and "not scummy". While at this time, those are null reads. Maxwell's reads rarely change throughout time. I believe that's a scum tell. Especially for someone who is so confusing like enomis. Furthermore, Maxwell has tied himself strongly to enomis early on in the game with a random vote and now a further read on it. Odd.

pablito: Sorry, completely missed that one. I like that system you alluded to, actually. It makes it extremely difficult for scum to twist their earlier words to mean something else later, as it makes it very clear what their thought process is. If implemented, we would all have to do it, though: perhaps with some kind of template that is used to open and close a case on another player, like in that example you quoted. Using it, you would accuse someone as scum (a serious accusation, you are suggesting to the gunbearer to shoot this person), give your case, and launch a discussion where other players have to give their opinions on the current case. This would also mean that scum would have to make a decision about where to take the case. If it's against their fellow scum, they can't be wishy washy then decide to bus at the last second in an effort to look town, and if they push too hard, they may sway town in an unfavourable way and get their scumbuddy lynched. It would put them on edge and make them more likely to slip up, in addition to giving lots of ammo to catch them in a lie.

TL-DR: Good idea.

-Here's where I start to pick up on Maxwell's self-defeating posting style. Maxwell says he likes the system, but puts a conditional spin on it. He says it won't work unless everyone has to do it. He's pretending to like an idea, but then at the same time is trying to defeat it simultaneously. Maxwell knows that this plan would kill scum in the long-term. Later on I will ask Maxwell more about his ideas about the plan and also what he wants to do to implement it. I still don't get Maxwell's all-or-nothing thinking. Maxwell will do this later on as well. I get a sense that Maxwell will acknowledge, avoid further mention, and then try to look as towny as possible later on.

Also: would that be considered Nacho's preliminary short list? If so, I'd like to try that case-by-case thing. Still like the idea.

-Town points for mentioning case by case even after the shortlist. Null tell because didn't do anything about it.

Mmk, now that I've actually looked at everyone:
...
vonflare: A lot of posts, but those lots of posts were mostly defending vonflare's own actions. However, almost all of the defense posts were prompted by questions about the readslist and such so I can excuse them. Null. Please comment on the game itself!
...
Ugh, I still think that active players are a mix of scum and town and I want an active shot. My only active scumread is julien. I need to give Wanderer, Heartless, CB, vonflare, and pablito another look. I think I messed up somewhere in there.

-At this point, a wagon on vonflare had been created. Considering that the majority of these reads were also Nacho's list of town, I can't help but think that Maxwell's role is to create doubt about who is truly town and also to push his own ideas about who is town (which are not like Nacho's list).

I'm getting scum-reads on Maxwell - moreso as a vengeful mafia. It was a gut feeling early on in the day, but now it's getting stronger as a vengeful mafia. I'm not feeling the full aggressiveness that I want from Maxwell. Maxwell seems to me as trying to look town without going full force. I see Maxwell as having good content inside each post, but I am not getting a

comprehensive

inter-posting pattern that is creating an overall picture. In an ISO, he'll look fine, but not in context of all other posts. Just as much as others are suspecting wanderer for not doing scum-hunting, I'm getting Maxwell as being half-assed scum-hunting. Which is why I asked the question of a voting system. If I felt Maxwell was pure town, I'd've wanted Maxwell to actually try to implement something. But I don't get the sense that Maxwell wants that. So prove me wrong Maxwell and force everyone to look at certain players through some type of referendum or focused-voting system.

@Maxwell (and if you care, @wanderer) - my thoughts on wanderer? I still think that wanderer talking about mafia wanting the vengefuls to go first is either a dumb-mafia tell or a town tell. I lean toward town tell, in fact, the posts about win condition speculation are the ones I would want to put the most weight into. So, for the moment, I have wanderer as a strong town tell. I am going to excuse the dcl vote as well, but I do

not

like the rationale that the dcl vote was to stir up discussion. #298 feels genuine to me as well - mainly because there's a lot of over-reaching in a lot of the analyses especially scum pairing with vonflare. I think wanderer as over-eager town than anything else. I don't feel that the analyses in #298 are necessarily helpful, but I feel it is coming from a townsperson perspective easily. julienvonwolfe has no effect on my view on wanderer as you can see in my post. All that being said, if wanderer is a target to be shot, I'm all for it. I think wanderer has shown some holes, and I'd like to see how wanderer would be in even more pressure and how others would react to wanderer being in full pressure as well. I just still have a more town-leaning read on wanderer though. wanderer being gunbearer if shot is not a bad thing though, which is why I have no problem with wanderer being a target despite my view on her.

@Maxwell regarding julienvonwolfe. Tell me again where you read that julien says that we ought to follow the gunbearer? I assume you're reading post #237, but if you could read it again for me and tell me where you read that, I'd appreciate it.

@Maxwell - also please explain this:

Also, scum can choose the gunbearer, remember? They indirectly control the shot (obviously not nacho's, but every shot after that), so it's more dangerous to just follow the gunbearer's lead, as that gunbearer's lead is geared towards what the scum wants, especially if the gunbearer is left to their own devices and town is afraid to argue with them.

Basically, I'm saying that is has to be a discussion, not done by majority vote and definitely not by just following the gunbearer.

-That was my original argument. Here is Maxwell's reply which I found VERY scummy.

If I felt Maxwell was pure town, I'd've wanted Maxwell to actually try to implement something. But I don't get the sense that Maxwell wants that. So prove me wrong Maxwell and force everyone to look at certain players through some type of referendum or focused-voting system.

@Maxwell regarding julienvonwolfe. Tell me again where you read that julien says that we ought to follow the gunbearer? I assume you're reading post #237, but if you could read it again for me and tell me where you read that, I'd appreciate it.

@Maxwell - also please explain this:

Also, scum can choose the gunbearer, remember? They indirectly control the shot (obviously not nacho's, but every shot after that), so it's more dangerous to just follow the gunbearer's lead, as that gunbearer's lead is geared towards what the scum wants, especially if the gunbearer is left to their own devices and town is afraid to argue with them.

Basically, I'm saying that is has to be a discussion, not done by majority vote and definitely not by just following the gunbearer.

About julienvonwolfe:

Here our friend Wanderer proposes normal mafia playing techniques (voting, lynching those with the most votes) as if they are incredibly useful scum hunting techniques. I'll admit that there's a reason that we use them in every other game, just about, as getting people to state their opinions is good for town, but I don't like the suggestion that we coerce (or constrain, perhaps) the gunbearer.

From my perspective, the gunbearer is confirmed town, and any majority opinion of players will include scum joining and maybe even steering the wagon. I trust the gunbearer more than the collective will of the players, in other words.

The bolded is what I was referring to, particularly the last sentence. At the time I took it as julien saying that we should just follow the gunbearer, instead of taking into account other player's thoughts.
However, I've now read julien's 331, and I think I may have reacted too quickly to what they were saying about wanderer. Explained like that, their thought process makes more sense.

Speaking of wanderer: I think their suggestion makes sense considering they're never played a nightless, lynchless game before, and they maybe haven't thought about the different style of play needed for it.

About 329: I'm saying that we can't just let the gunbearer (besides nacho, who was chosen so early it isn't a problem, though obviously we should still discuss with him too) make decisions entirely on their own, because they were chosen by the mafia for a reason, perhaps because they had a strong scumread on a townie, or townreads on vengefuls, etc, etc. It was in response to what I thought julien was saying about how we should handle the gunbearer.

Finally, pablito: That voting system. I like it. You suggested it. I kind of expected you to try and implement it too. Why are you not doing that?

When you suggested it, you were looking for opinions or better ideas than your own, right? And I agreed with your idea, so naturally I should be the one to 'force' everyone else to go along with it too? First: what? And second: It's not something that can be forced. Everyone has to agree, or at least the majority needs to agree, before something can be done.

Nacho: How do you feel about pablito's suggestion? If anyone can lead that off the ground, it'd be you, and I think it's something we can do.

Everyone:

Same question.

-Maxwell replies to my questions appropriately. Backs down where needed, backs self up and etc. It's the end of the post that gets me. Maxwell tries to jab at me. If Maxwell had ended his post right before addressing it to "Nacho" and/or "everyone" - I'd've dropped by lead on Maxwell and would've sniffed elsewhere. I expect vengeful to NOT get into one on one arguments with players. If a vengeful does so, the more likely vengeful gets shot when a town gets gun (ie: me). Instead vengeful would need to rely on goons to distract or defend, and would need to diffuse the focus. This is one reason why I can't yet put Flubber on any scum read. Additionally, Maxwell seems to be prematurely destroying the plan before seeing it go through. That's just annoying to me, but I also feel like it could be a good scum read. Maxwell kept the all-or-nothing rationale. I feel like Maxwell uses it as a crutch to tear down ideas without having to own anything at all. Also, he pretty much dropped it later...but then again part of that was due to Nacho's work and actually working on it later.

Let's contrast this with a post that Maxwell made just a few posts prior to that:

Read what I said about Vic. Then read it again. Maybe read it once more? Votes with no explanation make my gut think town. That's literally it, and it's not a substantial read at all. I had no gut feelings either way for the three of ya I put down at the bottom.

No, I don't think scum can hold the gun, obviously. I'm saying that it's more difficult for scum to influence a whole bunch of votes (a lotta people to influence), and it is much easier to influence a single person, ie the gunbearer. There are a large number of scum right now, so it only takes a few townies suggesting a shot that happens to be town for the scum to see and agree with, thereby creating a lean on that person for the shot. Also, scum can choose the gunbearer, remember? They indirectly control the shot (obviously not nacho's, but every shot after that), so it's more dangerous to just follow the gunbearer's lead, as that gunbearer's lead is geared towards what the scum wants, especially if the gunbearer is left to their own devices and town is afraid to argue with them.

Basically, I'm saying that is has to be a discussion, not done by majority vote and definitely not by just following the gunbearer.

-Maxwell talks about not following the gunbearer (theme of not letting power be held in one hand), but yet also not letting the field of mafia overrule the gunbearer. This seems contradictory to what he tells me a few posts later. Again, Maxwell seems to be putting out plans to help the town, but the inter-connected throughout the posts is weak. If Maxwell wants "the majority" to agree with the referenda plan but yet also does not feel that "the majority" should decide a gun shot - I'm not sure I follow. He's picking and choosing how to use the argument.



Let's fast forward a little bit more through D1:

pablito: I'm a bit confused. You said you expected more from me than from Wanderer, which, while flattering(?), does not make much sense to me. I've never played a game with you before, and Wanderer has considerably more games than me. This is my first non-Newbie on the site, ie my third game. Are you saying that you've read up on both of us, and think I'm the better player, or did you think I had a strong start in this game, while Wanderer did not, and now I'm not living up to your initial expectations?

As for my thinking Millar is not vengeful: Lazy play. There's a difference between laziness and lurking, and there it is. Millar is currently bored with the game, and that makes me think town or vanilla maf, not vengeful. I believe vengefuls would be doing more to avoid being the shot. Doing things that don't involve blatantly saying that Flubber will be the shot, for instance. I don't think a Millar shot is worth it.

But, apparently Nacho is avoiding Vengefuls, and would like to be shooting in inactives for that reason. I guess I can understand that, as Nacho wants to stay alive and be more useful, it's just the opposite of what I'd like to do. But since I haven't been able to propose an active shot of my own, I guess I can't blame anyone for going the inactive route. So, considering that, I guess Millar is as good a shot as any? But I'll look at Wanderer's proposals right now.

-Maxwell continues to play the role of reminding people of re-opening more leads. Maxwell isn't someone who opens up new cases on people, but is very well prepared to remind others to add in others to their list just in case. If lucky and RC are scum - Maxwell could be seen as trying to push millar on the spit instead. While Maxwell says to not shoot Millar, Max also makes a little side comment at the end that could easily push someone in the opposite direction. That's a scum tactic I like using as well. If Max is town, I don't get why Nacho vs. Lucky/RC wasn't fine as it was. So let's contrast this with a post that Maxwell made earlier! I'm liking this fun game of see how a post is contradictory with an earlier Maxwell post.

Heartless, I've said repeatedly that I do not want to shoot an inactive at this time. As I haven't made my mind up about Millar, I don't want to risk the possibility of him being town and having the gun. I think the possibility of him being town or non-vengeful scum is a lot higher than of him being vengeful, so I really don't think a shot is worth it.

-Just to note from 398 to 453, there is no further change in the millar read. 398 had Millar as and 453 had Millar as "lazy". The kicker here, is that millar made 0 posts between 398 to 453. During this progression of posts, I also got more aggressive against Maxwell and voted him. Both Max and West also try to point out my hypocrisy of treating West and Max differently. This was outlined in my previous post. I do not disagree with Maxwell and West on this - I was treating Maxwell differently. However, when I also pointed something out to wanderer - I got an immediate answer and wanderer created a referendum. Maxwell continues to seem to avoid most of what I say. Going back to Maxwell's lack of internal consistency...I'll fast forward to a post where Maxwell actually goes full force and tries to suggest millar as an actual shot rather than pretending it's not worthwhile:

...
Wanderer: Wanting to prioritize keeping Nacho alive instead of weeding out vengefuls... I don't like it. I think Nacho hitting a vengeful is a victory, even if it means scum will give the gun to a lurker probably. Once all Vengefuls are dead, we win, we literally win. I just can't get behind trying to shoot goons first. I still don't think there's a surefire way to determine what kind of scum someone is, but I do think we will be able to tell by lategame, as we'll have more posts to look at and the stakes for scum will be much higher. Goons that didn't care about being shot in the beginning would be much more protective of themselves lategame, etc.

I think Wanderer's play has been fine so far. No contradictions, no laziness, just scumhunting. Their play just seems very towny and genuine, I'll grab quote examples if prompted but you can see it just by reading her posts. I still don't know why she's being scumread. Julien's reasoning was Wanderer saying she's never played a game like this before, and I've already said why I think that's a bull reason, in an earlier post. Also, being null on the lurkers is reason for scumread??? How are you supposed to read lurkers except superficially?

Anyways, I really disgaree with Wanderer as the shot because I think she's useful town. But I don't agree with any of these three players being the shot, either... Lucky is null and buhhhh but I'm glad he's in the list because maybe it'll prompt him to post something, finally, and Red is null lean town because if he were scum his play makes no sense to me, and he's not a new player so I can't just slap 'bad scumplay' on him and call it a day.

If Lucky is the shot, I see no reason why Millar and Jeanne aren't just as likely candidates. I guess you can differentiate them by saying that Jeanne wanted to be shot, which I still don't understand, but between Millar and Lucky I see no difference.

-If there's any question I want to ask Maxwell - it's why Millar and not Lucky at that time? I didn't pick up on this back then and I'd like to hear more.

Okay, posting now, but still building more cases.

[pablito]

As for why I treated Maxwell and wanderer differently despite both talking about my voting system - wanderer clearly did not understand it. Pass given. Maxwell has not yet stated any difficulty with understanding it. Pass not given. That being said, I did force Maxwell to comment on the system whereas wanderer did so voluntarily. That is because I had a gut feeling on Maxwell and I'm pressuring Maxwell to fit my initial read. I will not deny I am hyperfocused on Maxwell and overly biased.

-Okay, if Maxwell flips scum, I think millar is town or mafia goon. There was a strong push toward millar. At that time, Lucky and RC were both on the list. This was before RC made all the posts. If Maxwell flips scum, my stock in RC goes down, as does the low stock in Lucky. Except RC made this point shortly during the first few in the series of many posts:

I agree about enomis, but I can't tell what you're trying to say with this last paragraph besides "nacho should shoot scum"

I like this comment. It makes me suspect Max some.
...
(

later on...

...
I'm backtracking from my earlier stance on this. This is probably town. I feel hypocritical for giving dcl the business on this because I can emphasize with how weighed down this game feels.

As far as Max goes... I keep going back and forth on him. I like this whole reads post though.

-I'm not sure how important it would be for RC as scum to show doubt on Maxwell. Either way, I'm not sure about the RC-Max relationship.

Then Nacho shot Victor. The story unravels. Also, Maxwell has not posted as much since D1.

I think Pab just said they are not posting their shootlist yet, lol.

Anyways, about Nacho's idea of a Do Not Shoot list... I just think it's a bad idea. Especially one made that early in the game. Nacho made that list with zero flips, so he had the least information out of any GBs. Declaring some people 'town forever' and just leaving it at that is lazy, and disregards later information, or flips, that could come up.

-Maxwell states he is not in favor of the "do not shoot list" overall.

The rest of D3, Maxwell is not present very much. However, Maxwell has enough posts to wade through reads if Maxwell flips scum (especially vengeful).

That's my case on Maxwell. Comments? Defenses? Distractions to the Maxwell shot? I'm still open to the vonflare shot, btw.

[pablito]

EBWOP:

My first post was not formatted correctly. Here is the correction:

Heartless, I've said repeatedly that I do not want to shoot an inactive at this time. As I haven't made my mind up about Millar, I don't want to risk the possibility of him being town and having the gun. I think the possibility of him being town or non-vengeful scum is a lot higher than of him being vengeful, so I really don't think a shot is worth it.

-Just to note from 398 to 453, there is no further change in the millar read. 398 had Millar as and 453 had Millar as "lazy". The kicker here, is that millar made 0 posts between 398 to 453. During this progression of posts, I also got more aggressive against Maxwell and voted him. Both Max and West also try to point out my hypocrisy of treating West and Max differently. This was outlined in my previous post. I do not disagree with Maxwell and West on this - I was treating Maxwell differently. However, when I also pointed something out to wanderer - I got an immediate answer and wanderer created a referendum. Maxwell continues to seem to avoid most of what I say. Going back to Maxwell's lack of internal consistency...I'll fast forward to a post where Maxwell actually goes full force and tries to suggest millar as an actual shot rather than pretending it's not worthwhile:

...
Wanderer: Wanting to prioritize keeping Nacho alive instead of weeding out vengefuls... I don't like it. I think Nacho hitting a vengeful is a victory, even if it means scum will give the gun to a lurker probably. Once all Vengefuls are dead, we win, we literally win. I just can't get behind trying to shoot goons first. I still don't think there's a surefire way to determine what kind of scum someone is, but I do think we will be able to tell by lategame, as we'll have more posts to look at and the stakes for scum will be much higher. Goons that didn't care about being shot in the beginning would be much more protective of themselves lategame, etc.

I think Wanderer's play has been fine so far. No contradictions, no laziness, just scumhunting. Their play just seems very towny and genuine, I'll grab quote examples if prompted but you can see it just by reading her posts. I still don't know why she's being scumread. Julien's reasoning was Wanderer saying she's never played a game like this before, and I've already said why I think that's a bull reason, in an earlier post. Also, being null on the lurkers is reason for scumread??? How are you supposed to read lurkers except superficially?

Anyways, I really disgaree with Wanderer as the shot because I think she's useful town. But I don't agree with any of these three players being the shot, either... Lucky is null and buhhhh but I'm glad he's in the list because maybe it'll prompt him to post something, finally, and Red is null lean town because if he were scum his play makes no sense to me, and he's not a new player so I can't just slap 'bad scumplay' on him and call it a day.

If Lucky is the shot, I see no reason why Millar and Jeanne aren't just as likely candidates. I guess you can differentiate them by saying that Jeanne wanted to be shot, which I still don't understand, but between Millar and Lucky I see no difference.

-If there's any question I want to ask Maxwell - it's why Millar and not Lucky at that time? I didn't pick up on this back then and I'd like to hear more.

Okay, posting now, but still building more cases.

[pablito]

Alright, that was resigned scum.

My guesses on scum based on interactions with Maxwell: Maxwell, West, vonflare, Suzune, Titus, PN, Lucky (in order of strongest read to weakest)
Town: Heartless, CB, wanderer-nl, RC, Kari, Flubber, enomis, millar's replacement (in order of strongest read to weakest)

Vengeful Candidates: Maxwell, West, Flubber, RC.

Shoot: MaxwellPuckett

Good luck all. If I somehow get another bullet, I'll probably shoot vonflare or something and I won't extend the timeframe anymore.

[pablito]

Welcome MonkeyMan.

I can tell you right now, I'm not shooting Heartless, I'm not shooting MonkeyMan. MonkeyMan deserves reprieve for just coming in - furthermore Maxwell distracted the Lucky/RC vote toward millar. So far, continuing to agree to the compact that Nacho set up.

I am strongly considering a short-list of Titus, enomis, vonflare, West and that I won't take longer than a week to make a shot. Preferably shorter than that. If you all got other suggestions on other people to include on the shortlist let me know soon.

I plan on looking back on Maxwell's super town reads to see if there's any good information there.

[pablito]

Honestly, I'm a bit disappointed I'm still in the game. Nonetheless, I still want to do my best.

So here are people that Maxwell pressured heavily in his ISO: millar (now MonkeyMan), jeanne (now Suzune), Heartless, also many mentions that vonflare was Victor's best shot.

Also Maxwell is the one that was the most vehement against the Nacho plan of not shooting CB, RC, wanderer, Heartless and pablito. As such, I strongly encourage the five of us to plan to not shoot any of the others at least until 6 total mafia are dead. I'd also strongly encourage all gunbearers to do the same. Maxwell was against the list because, I suspect, he knew all five of us are town.

People that Maxwell often defended: West, enomis, Lucky, Suzune, Titus.
Stated were town: wanderer, RC, CB.

I honestly decided to shoot Maxwell because I felt that his posts were fairly wide open and transparent. I'm hoping there's lot of good reads based on this flip.

[pablito]

indifference, impatience...

can't say Max's flip is shocking - WE found his wordiness to be a hindrance when evaluating the slot, so our read was - Null. Well, that can be said for the walls WE have encountered thus far. WE skip walls.

OUR preference is non-traditional - shoot from the HEART. Itchy fingers, target and only THEN feel contrition

This is annoying and I don't give a shit about this slot. That being said, I have better reads than this, because Maxwell interacted with more people than PN.

[pablito]

MonkeyMan, I'd greatly appreciate if when you go into Maxwell's ISO further, if you could comment on the stuff he says about millar - the role you replaced. Thanks.

[pablito]

You should take West off of that list.

Thanks for including me. :-p

Why? You're giving me absolutely now evidence that it would be in my best interest. I want to hear your grand scheme of things.

Also explain your choice of vonflare over enomis.

[pablito]

Also Maxwell is the one that was the most vehement against the Nacho plan of not shooting CB, RC, wanderer, Heartless and pablito. As such, I strongly encourage the five of us to plan to not shoot any of the others at least until 6 total mafia are dead. I'd also strongly encourage all gunbearers to do the same. Maxwell was against the list because, I suspect, he knew all five of us are town.

This paragraph is golden, pab. This is exactly how I feel. I'm sorry if I have been disappointing you with my activity, but I am happy you got us our first good shot.

Suck-up

I agree here. vonflare - what's your read on RC. How about also, what's your read on Titus? Also, what's your read on anyone?

[pablito]

I thought maxwell was town...

Maxwell hadn't flipped here. This implies that he knew Maxwell was scum preflip.

As for West, his towniness should be evident and I can't see why anyone thinks he is scummy. *shrug*

It's not evident. He was shortlisted last time - so that shows it wasn't then and it still isn't now. Do share how you have seen this towniness through your eyes. Evidence please?

[pablito]

Also Titus - by this point you've learned more about the set-up. What do you think is the best strategy to take based on the set-up aside from using this "pool" or "shortlist" idea?

[pablito]

I just skimmed Suzunne's iso and I think there are a lot of associations there. I think a PN-flip will help in determining Suzunne's allignment more. Not convinced of her allignment but I liked her 1007.

I have reason to believe Titus is scum, and maybe even vengeful, but I can't elaborate because ongoing. Have to go in a bit but maybe I'll find some motivation to do a meta-dive on her later today.

I haven't taken the time yet to look back on Maxwell, am planning to do that but for now here are the people I'd want shot right now: Vonflare, PN, Titus. Vonflare and Titus because of actual scumreads and PN because of associations, I'm not sure if I'm really scumreading PN or just don't like their playingstyle, but they have been talked about by many players so it will be good info nonetheless.

Will try to actually do something later.

Sounds good - probably going to put in Suzune in the shortlist and take someone out or something. I'm still deciding who I want it for good.

@RC - I like your posts, so I have nothing against you, but you are pretty religious about this no kill list - and you were also the last one that was added to it pretty much.

[pablito]

I've been doing some thinking (sorry pablito, but since you're giving me so much time, this is what you get: my ramblings).

I think the game makes a

lot

more sense letting go of a Flubber scum read. I think this fits together better: vonflare, Perpetual Nonsense, Lucky2u, West9, Titus, MaxwellPuckett, millar13

So we have a new list. We have Nacho's "never shoot" list and now we have Heartless' "scum list".

Vote on whether to trust Heartless' "scum list"?
West alluded to "yea"
wanderer-nl pretty much said "yea"
Maxwell said "nay" - only PN and vonflare were scum.

So what do you think?


Also pablito's current shortlist is now: Suzune, Titus, vonflare, West9.

Please rank order those 4 from "most want to be shot" to "least want to be shot".

[pablito]

Oh, and Flubbie.

I'm going to repeat Anti's sentiment here.

Nut up or shut up.

We're not going to go back on our read on Red Coyote just because he said "good job" after a scum flip. There needs to be a lot better of a reason than that, especially given Max's loud bitching and moaning about Nacho/pabilto's suggested town block. At this point, you're being petty and anti-town at best and scummy at worst. pablito's not going to shoot us so the only purpose you're serving is pushing Anti's buttons.

You seriously think we're scum? You've seen each of us individually as scum in 2 games and this hydra as scum in one. I don't know how you could really think we're scum given what you've seen of our body of work. I'm even more perplexed given the face my

unique, original

scum read

just flipped scum as the direct result of our efforts

.

Before further speculation goes on that final sentence, I will admit that Heartless asking me to reconsider Maxwell did have an impact on me deciding to shoot Maxwell in the end.


@Titus, your effort level in this game is minimal. Therefore your persuasion power on me is nil. I'd be more likely to shoot you than vonflare at this moment.

[pablito]

Too much talking. We should shoot once a day unless we hit town. No letting scum regroup.

That also doesn't let town regroup either. And considering that most scum are probably lurking into oblivion, I don't think that's a good idea. Titus - who are your scum reads who would likely use the time to regroup? What do you think of Lucky, millar/Monkey, and what did you think of Jeanne? Did you feel that all are town?

Also Titus per your own thread, you say that D1 is useless in the moment, but is a good scum hunting tool late in the game. If I were to make my shot of Titus right now, how would that help town later on know what were the mafia's reads on Titus at that time?

[pablito]

hey pablito, now that you have had a taste of blood, is it my turn?

Ignored.

I hold a lot of the responsibility for not guiding discussion better, but there's no reason why town has to be this silent overall save for several players (cb, wanderer, west, kari, suzune, heartless, rc). I've seen games where the lynch dynamics have been changed and voting doesn't happen, but the discussion still fosters because people have an interest in scum hunting. We've discussed the setup, but the fact remains that if we just go off of everything from D1 and just keep shooting from that, it's not doing honor to the game of mafia and it'd be better served as a mish mash or scumchat game. So for the sake of

mafia

, lurkers please contribute. I will post questions now to help. And if you are seriously playing this game just for your vigilante fetish, then you are a selfish person for playing this game.

Also if the mafia team is lurking because they've given up, then it's also an option to notify the mod that you've all given up. We've gotten a few lurkers to replace out, but this game annoys me so, and I will not listen to Titus or Lucky begging for a shot. Furthermore Titus, because this game has no "lynches", scum regrouping is not going to be affected by the gunshot, as long as the GB sticks to their guns, so to speak.

[pablito]

Questions to start up more discussion. Although, my current plan is to shoot someone by Wednesday.

Titus - If you feel that scum get a chance to regroup when time lags, how do you feel about D3 where I admit that I came in wanting to shoot West9 but after the nominations and shortlist process, but then chose not to in the end based on what everyone said about West. Do you feel that there were specific people trying hard to distract me from that shot?

PN - You said previously you would shoot Flubber, and then later CB, wanderer and Jeanne. How do you feel about those latter 3 still? I'm very curious to hear your view on Titus, especially.

Flubber - Yeah, you got enough to respond to here already. You get a pass from me.

West9 - You have your plans, but I'd also like to hear your plans if you think that anyone during D3 was trying to buddy up to you during the shortlist phase.

Suzune - Whom are your town reads? In reading your ISO, I'm not sure you ever did get to that post where you meant to say them...

enomis - Where the hell are you? You meant to read the thread and then didn't again. Also you didn't like millar, so what do you think of Monkey now?

vonflare - You posted Maxwell's reads before Maxwell flipped, right. Maxwell gave interesting insights on both julien (now Suzune) as well as RC. Maxwell called both scum - now that Maxwell's dead, what do you think about those two?

CB - I'm waiting for your post and reaction to Maxwell's flip most of all before any shot is made.

RC - If I were to make a "do not shoot" list, I'd honestly consider adding on MonkeyMan and Kari on there. Your thoughts?

[pablito]

West9 - You have your plans, but I'd also like to hear your plans if you think that anyone during D3 was trying to buddy up to you during the shortlist phase.

I'm not quite sure what this question is asking, or what you mean by "my plans." If the above post doesn't act as an answer to this, let me know what you want me to respond to.

Your plans of commenting on shortlist and looking back at Maxwell. However, I'd still like to hear from you who you may have felt was buddying up to you during D3 during the shortlist phase of D2.

I still think West9 is scum and is my strongest scumread, but I'm not convinced that it is the right shot today. Mainly because I would rather reinforce those who are posting and giving them a break and going after lurkerscum instead.

[pablito]

hey pablito, now that you have had a taste of blood, is it my turn?

This kind of play baffles my mind. If the vengeful are running as jesters then I suppose it makes sense, but the obvious bait is obvious is hurting really hard here. Seriously, this is the point where I would lose the game because I took out people who are not team players...

Suzune, if Lucky sees himself as a jester, but Maxwell saw vengefuls as more important, it could make sense if there was dissension within mafia about how to treat the vengefuls. Maxwell slightly protected Lucky and RC D1 by trying to get millar shot instead with absolutely no reason to distract from either a Lucky/RC shot.

Judging him on his day 3 by the effort he put into his posts makes me feel as if he thought himself a dead man walking at that point so was just putting out random spew so I won't place much important into associative interactions on that day.

Yes, I completely agree and was waiting to see who would bring this up and who would try to erroneously try to read D3 Maxwell.

Also pablito's current shortlist is now: Suzune, Titus, vonflare, West9.

Please rank order those 4 from "most want to be shot" to "least want to be shot".

Vonflare > Titus > Suzune > West9

I trust CB's judgment, and it makes me further want to wait on shooting West9. I still think West is skillful scum that Maxwell blatantly defended. I believe that in no way should late-game town trust West9 and this is a shot that should be made at some time in the game. I'm still thinking about making that shot, but the process analyst in me wants to not make that shot, because taking out maxwellscum and westscum would take out two contributors to the overall discussion.

@vonflare
@Titus
If you're town and you have the gun tomorrow, what's your process for shooting the gun and who'd you most likely shoot?

[pablito]

So if I'm going to make a shot on Wednesday, I need your final recommendations people. I am taking these things into consideration during this DP.

If there's still too much going on, I'll delay as needed.

So no one's really talking about Suzune except West9. Duly noted. I am still willing to shoot Suzune.

Hell, at this point, considering how quiet PN is, I'm willing to shoot PN even though they're not on my shortlist.

[pablito]

west9's recent posting has actually been pretty awesome so i wouldn't recommend that shot

I think that Maxwell's posting style showed that he had no incentive to buddy up to West, but Maxwell did so for no additional benefit. Maxwell made a choice to specifically not buddy up to me and others called town - but Maxwell not only buddied up to West, but did so in a hidden way. Maxwell did not call out West on his "town reads" list that was officially requested by me, but later on added in West - so that it was hidden in a different unofficial post. Even before D3, Maxwell did so. No matter West's current posting, I still can't get a lot of that off my mind, and I do not believe West should be given more than a few days reprieve. I do believe that West's recent posting is pretty damn sexy though. But again....just like yesterday, if no one recommended Maxwell be shot, no one except for Heartless called him scum...yet Maxwell flipped mafia...then I just have to consider the possibility that West is being hidden behind a lot of mafia - especially if Titus is jestering for a shot to protect West.

There's just a lot of WIFOM with West with me right now. With Maxwell, I did not feel that, and I knew it was a smart shot. Furthermore, with West's new sexy postings, it may even give me more incentive to shoot him if I feel that he could be helpful if he is town and becomes next gunbearer...

I'm really looking into your rank lists people. So get them going. I'd like to see more from Kari and Suzune if possible as well.

[pablito]

Enough evidence and discussion today to make a shot. When I get home later in several hours (more than 5-6) I'll do it.

Just want to post my town reads and scum reads later just in case I die with the shot.

Gut reads
town = Heartless, CB, wanderer-nl, Monkey, RC, Kari, Flubber, Suzune
scum = Lucky, West, PN, enomis, vonflare, Titus

my last four I'm not so sure on.

The scummiest things that have happened today, imo, are PN and enomis not posting much post-flip. I think those two should continue to remain in focus. Neither have done much to defend themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if those two flipped scum especially because during the shortlist of west-pn-enomis there was way too much consensus. I feel more confident on PN than enomis.

[pablito]

I didn't expect people to actually post because you know strategic lurking and whatever.

I am going in to the gym and will make my shot after I read and comment.

My intent since yesterday has been to shoot vonflare. While I feel west or suzune are stronger scum reads for me I feel that letting von live will be too much distraction in the future and it is a necessary evil. I feel confident he is likely scum though and the recent rash of posting may be a ploy to get me to be even morelikely to shoot him. Maybe they saw max post more and all thought the proper way to jester with pablito was to actually post fluff. Therefore maybe von is vengeful. Dunno. Either way it is for the best of the town to do so.

So yeah. Thanks all for posting. Keep it up.

[pablito]

pablito chooses to

shoot: vonflare

Lol, I was making a nice long post and accidentally deleted it. So you get the abridged version now.

1. vonflare - vonflare was around after Victor shot me and pre-pablito flip. vonflare knew how things worked but still chose to comment on Maxwell pre-flip. vonflare chose that moment to make something happen. I think vonflare wanted to be shot. So sure, let's make it happen. Furthermore, I feel that vonflare's contributions today have been enough where even if he's town, it's not going to be too harmful to the town. The case vonflare has on west was unnecessary, and was a clear request to be shot again. No one really has talked about West except me. If vonflare was town trying to avoid being shot, vonflare would a) try to defend himself and go back to D3 to respond to that stuff, and would also try to work on a better shot than west. vonflare's been connected to so many people trying to get him shot.

2. West9 - There's absolutely no reason for Maxwell to focus on West9. There was no build-up there was subtle defense. See #815. Their interactions, if you look at their dual ISO, seems to be expert scum nudging his little brother into behaving well and guiding the course. No matter what West has done today during D4, it can't break Maxwell's work on West. Do not let West get to the endgame. I am only choosing to not shoot West for two reasons a) respecting town's wishes b) West's posts, even if anti-town or mafia, still benefit the overall scumhunting process. Early D4 was annoying as hell, but West helped us get out of it. So thanks.

3. Suzune - I keep going back to the early Suzune posts and am starting to see it scummier than before. Furthermore, Maxwell randomly called Suzune town in a hyperbolic statement. When challenged on it, Maxwell retracted the level of confidence and saw his error. After that moment, Maxwell pretty much shut up. I think he knew he was done then and made his mistake. Suzune also replaced julien, who ought to have been shot. A Suzune flip could be very helpful. Suzune flip would give more info on Titus and enomis as well.

4. Lucky - Clearly anti-town. Whether mafia or not, fact remains that Lucky is still anti-town. Further more, I still believe that the heavy evidence is that Maxwell tried to push millar onto the fire because he was protecting Lucky. Nacho's meta on Lucky is something to not ignore either. I feel that Maxwell gave me the best 3 reads on West, Suzune and Lucky.

5. enomis - enomis was almost silent all day. PN spoke up when prodded by the GB. Please remember that for future reference. enomis still is nowhere. enomis is strategically lurking today. enomis mostly confused people yesterday during D3. The fact that no one brought him up again today during D4 is worth a mention.

6. PN - PN is acting anti-town as well. PN clearly can contribute well, but has chosen to not do so. That's selfish. When PN was pressured by the town and had almost everyone rank order PN as #1 - there was nothing. But today during D4 something came out that frightened PN. I think PN needs to answer that. If I were to lengthen the day, I'd focus more on PN and enomis. There's lots of good connections to PN as well and would be a good flip to see.

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7. Kari - Karis' been called town based on d-c-l's early tell, but hasn't done too much else beyond that. Mostly a POE read.

8. RC - RC actually defended Maxwell early D3 in #808 Don't forget that. I've liked RC beyond that and he's on the compact, so I won't shoot RC. But someone should consider it later.

9. Titus - I go back and forth on Titus. Titus annoys me, but I don't know if that's because Titus is aiming for me to shoot her, or whatever. Nonetheless, Titus has been pretty vocal D4 and is also creating connections to others that will only give us better reads in the future.

10. 11. 12 - CB, wanderer-nl, Heartless - clear town. Never shoot. Got tired of writing.

So yeah, time to see if vonflare was a universal scum bussing or if vonflare is just really crap.

[pablito]

I don't think vonflare is mafia goon, so goodbye and good luck. If I survive, I'm not sure if I can handle much more scum hunting this game and will either defer to town or specific people to decide my shot. Don't mind guiding discussion again, but I just am gassed on analysing. My suggestion for future GB is "trust your instinct". You had gut reads for a reason. You don't always lynch someone because you are convinced by someone else, you have to get your reads based on your interactions with others. So therefore

interact with others NOW

. My best read was on someone who I had in sights BEFORE my flip. This is why I want to extend days. It's not for my sake, it's for yours. Anyone who is lurking, avoiding and ignoring topics is more likely to be scum.

This game makes it very easy to get away with not responding to specific questions especially if the focus is mostly on GB-other dynamics rather than other-other dynamics.

[pablito]

gg everyone. Thanks for replacing in Not_Mafia!

I think the win conditions made the game so much more different from the original popcorn set-up. I'm not sure if I enjoyed these win conditions.