Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[Andresvmb]

You too? Hmmm

I landed there yesterday and have consistently argued that today.

[Andresvmb]

Like youre not even responding to the accusation that i said thay youre trying to widen poe -> you outted a bunch of ppl yousay you would be "unopposed" to eliminating. Like u threw in a bunch of inactive slots and added me and called it a day.

i dont understand what that means but also i dont care about how you envision how i should play so i have no inclination to respond to your characterization of my play

you do know what it means u just wanna waste conversation to fluff and ignore it.

VOTE: RTP

I mean yeah, again, this slot is definitely worth flipping. And I would argue it would clear Dunn.

[Andresvmb]

I'm still here on RTP. Come back. It's warm and cozy. Or how about maxwell for lazily riding RTP's coattails in pushing a GC vote on weaksauce theory, after RTP early called his slot town.

Yeah I’m going to insist. The fact that they backed off at the end after they probably decided to just shoot RTP really brings the point home.

I am going to strongly suggest that GC is Scum here. In fact my read has only hardened after ISO’ing there, and I would like to encourage all of you to read there carefully.

[Andresvmb]

I would be surprised if that's the entire team, but GC and/or andres have variously made me feel uneasy this game in ways I haven't really articulated to myself.

And if GC flips Scum, don’t let VPB get away with this distancing. They were vibing quite well D1 to now make this post, which comes across as a little funny to me.

[Andresvmb]

@Momrangal, @Cookie Monster, logically you should have no problem voting for Green Crayons. In fact I think you should join me here.

[Andresvmb]

would it not make sense to flip dunn here?

I want to flip the player I Scum Read the most. Just because you all think that Dunn is Scum (I don’t find Dunn particularly convincing either way) does not mean that I have to agree. And I already have the sense that something is going on. Which is why I’m not going along. I don’t need to flip Dunn to confirm that.

[Andresvmb]

i don't understand this view at all. like, lotus is also one of the people that wants dunn dead. baltar is heavily helping out there. if you assume lotus!scum and baltar!town, why in the heck would lotus start trying to abuse the ~paranoia~ now?

Did you even read what I wrote? I was arguing that RLotus is probably Town for that post, because the thought process behind the post is rather convoluted. I am not making an assumption that RLotus is Scum, and VPB is Town.

[Andresvmb]

could you link this? i'm scrolling around early green's iso, and i don't see it.

Do you think Duchess and Italiano are scum together? Or that duchess was scum trying to pocket a low hanging fruit townie?

I toyed with the idea of maybe s/s, but that post I was quoting specifically feels more like s/t. Also on the aggression scale my Q to VD was so benign that I don’t think a scum would have felt compelled to preemptively attack it on behalf of another scum who hadn’t yet responded. Couple that with VD-scum turning around to vote Dutchess-scum seems unlikely though not out of the realm of reasonable strategy (this doesn’t seem like a quick elim game, in terms of attitude and no players that I know of who will insta hammer).

The very first sentence confirms what I’m saying. They “toyed with the idea” of Italiano and Duchess being both Scum, but after Italiano turns around and votes for Duchess, it appears to be less likely (but not that they leave themselves open by saying that it could just be “strategy”).

[Andresvmb]

I thought that they had finally saw my claim when they mysteriously unvoted me and told others to back off.

Are you being serious right now? What post could they possibly have interpreted as a claim of any sort? Quote it. Because I haven’t read it, and I read every post if yours. And since you’re hinting so heavily at it, you’re going to clarify this now.

[Andresvmb]

I’ve already addressed this.

And I think you’re full of it. I am basically saying that I don’t buy your explanation.

[Andresvmb]

Also, what's a friendly neighbor?

You want me to believe that your reaction to VPB there is a hint at your role? Is this a joke? VPB at that stage of the game couldn’t possibly know anybody else is a Friendly Neighbor, unless I’m an idiot with mechanics. So you’re hinting at Informed in some way. That doesn’t make me feel any better about your slot.

[Andresvmb]

And that RTP went all the way back to this back and forth banter and decided to back off of you because of it? There’s no way you’re making this argument with a straight face.

[Andresvmb]

why would Baltar need to know that there was a neighborizer? what is even your thought process.

I saw Baltar's post and thought either he was just shooting the breeze, and it was worth putting out a crumb, or maybe similar to a game i just played (I believe with Baltar) where there were multiple folks of the same role (here, neighborizers) and he was trying to see if there was a similar situation

So you’re a Neighborizer? So who have you Neighborized N1? And do you have any Modifiers that can actually help with game solving? Because otherwise it’s just a cute role with not much of an impact on the game and it doesn’t at all change my feeling that you’re Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Why are you both running interference for Green Crayons? Every time I post or push there, you both [Datisi, VPB] come out of the woodwork to either intensely question my argument, or divert the conversation in some other direction. What’s going on?

[Andresvmb]

okay

Answer the question. Who did you Neighborize N1?

[Andresvmb]

I'm not following how a GC scum flip clears dunn outright...what are you seeing here?

GC moved away from Duchess and voted Dunn, and they did the same thing today. If GC is Scum I would argue that they haven’t been trying to bus their Partner spontaneously since D1.

[Andresvmb]

could you link this? i'm scrolling around early green's iso, and i don't see it.

Do you think Duchess and Italiano are scum together? Or that duchess was scum trying to pocket a low hanging fruit townie?

I toyed with the idea of maybe s/s, but that post I was quoting specifically feels more like s/t. Also on the aggression scale my Q to VD was so benign that I don’t think a scum would have felt compelled to preemptively attack it on behalf of another scum who hadn’t yet responded. Couple that with VD-scum turning around to vote Dutchess-scum seems unlikely though not out of the realm of reasonable strategy (this doesn’t seem like a quick elim game, in terms of attitude and no players that I know of who will insta hammer).

The very first sentence confirms what I’m saying. They “toyed with the idea” of Italiano and Duchess being both Scum, but after Italiano turns around and votes for Duchess, it appears to be less likely (but not that they leave themselves open by saying that it could just be “strategy”).

I just want to clarify your viewpoint here, you think that was scum!VP asking scum!GC a clarifying point about the crux of your scum!GC case?

There’s something strange going on. You and GC vibed extremely well D1. Can you at least agree with that? I don’t want to have to quote interactions between the two of you. You guys were discussing all kinds of view points, with GC defending you as Town repeatedly, and with you returning the favor for the most part. But today, as I quoted, you’ve changed your tune. It’s a subtle but remarkable change of perspective.

Maybe you both wouldn’t as Scum make yourselves so obvious. I suppose you’re trying to get at that argument. And perhaps I would agree. If it weren’t for the fact that you’re now distancing from each other. But again, it’s something to focus on later, after we’ve had a flip. Right now, it’s just too early to tell.

[Andresvmb]

ah yes, let me divulge who i neighborized while sitting at e-2 when you're already convinced that i'm scum and have said my role doesn't sway you otherwise

no thank you

This is a Scum claim.

You’ve effectively confirmed for everybody that you’re a Neighborizer. Revealing who you targeted has no impact other than allow that player to confirm your role. You declining to do so is a horrible look.

[Andresvmb]

ah yes, let me divulge who i neighborized while sitting at e-2 when you're already convinced that i'm scum and have said my role doesn't sway you otherwise

no thank you

This is a Scum claim.

You’ve effectively confirmed for everybody that you’re a Neighborizer. Revealing who you targeted has no impact other than allow that player to confirm your role. You declining to do so is a horrible look.

i can recruit multiple times and i'd like for the scum to not know who my selectively curated townblock is

More nonsense. This argument makes no sense at all.

[Andresvmb]

Why are you both running interference for Green Crayons? Every time I post or push there, you both [Datisi, VPB] come out of the woodwork to either intensely question my argument, or divert the conversation in some other direction. What’s going on?

i think dunn is scum and i'm trying to get him flipped

also i don't scumread green and am trying to figure out if i'm going wrong there, or if you're wrong, or if you're bullshitting scum, and what other way do i do that than probe and see what you're all about?

Unless you’ve seen a Neighborizer before that claimed but refused to reveal who they targeted N1, I believe you’re the one going wrong.

[Andresvmb]

it's like a masonhood where you have to actually work for it.

I’m sorry, what? No. A Neighborhood is most certainly not a masonhood. This is absurd. Unless your accuracy is 100%, your “perfectly curated Town block” is not better than anybody else’s unless proven otherwise. And I’m far from convinced you are even Town, let alone trustworthy enough to establish a Town core.

[Andresvmb]

while the refusal to claim is debatably (and agreeably) annoying, what is the scum motivation there? claim weak role that doesn't prove alignment unprompted, then refuse to claim target because ??? funsies? like what's the "scumclaim" here

So there’s no Scum motivation behind claiming a PR, however weak it may be, to avoid execution? Just out the damn target it literally only speaks to who Green Crayons trusts and that’s it.

[Andresvmb]

And c’mon Datisi you’re not this naive. Clearly claiming a PR unprompted is a Scum tactic you’ve seen before.

[Andresvmb]

the whole benefit of the neighborhood pt is the intense, small-circle discussion to help vet those in the pt

More bullshit. You can continue to have this discussion while revealing who it is you have a neighborhood with. Revealing who you targeted N1 won’t stop whatever conversations you want to have.

[Andresvmb]

Why are you both running interference for Green Crayons? Every time I post or push there, you both [Datisi, VPB] come out of the woodwork to either intensely question my argument, or divert the conversation in some other direction. What’s going on?

I don't think that is what is happening at all?????

You must be blind then.

[Andresvmb]

i didn't claim PR umprompted, it explains why i stopped pushing RTP & why RTP stopped pushing me

No it doesn’t AT ALL. This is completely unbelievable.

[Andresvmb]

And I mean that literally, as in really hard to believe.

[Andresvmb]

How is this not a Scum reaction? Either reveal your target, and have them confirm your role, or die. I’m not going to move, and I will be screaming for your head as long as necessary until you do.

[Andresvmb]

And c’mon Datisi you’re not this naive. Clearly claiming a PR unprompted is a Scum tactic you’ve seen before.

you're gonna have to refresh me on what exactly you're talking of here.

while the refusal to claim is debatably (and agreeably) annoying, what is the scum motivation there? claim weak role that doesn't prove alignment unprompted, then refuse to claim target because ??? funsies? like what's the "scumclaim" here

So there’s no Scum motivation behind claiming a PR, however weak it may be, to avoid execution? Just out the damn target it literally only speaks to who Green Crayons trusts and that’s it.

i mean (1) a plain neighbourizer is not saving anyone from getting executed (2) again, what is the scum motivation in hiding the target when it's obviously doing nothing but pissing you off? like, do you think green is fakeclaiming neighbourizer all together? which if so returns us to (1)

What is the damage of revealing who they targeted? Answer me that. If you can figure that out for me, then we can talk.

[Andresvmb]

I can’t remember if you were in that game Datisi I’ll go look. But Flavor Leaf made the claim as Scum that they were a Friendly Neighbor with Koba who confirmed their role when they were both Scum, and the actual claim happened with Flavor under some pressure but not at E-1 under the threat of a hammer.

[Andresvmb]

but that again brings me to (1). neighbourizer is a role seen as both alignments. it's not an exclusively town role. it's not saving anyone.

So then (1) why the need to refer to a really crappy crumb, and (2) why the need to hide any obvious elements of the claim?

[Andresvmb]

At the same time, GC will presumably get NKed tonight? Or have to recruit a second person to corroborate this claim.

With several players voting there, and me screaming for their head? What, to blunt a Neighborizer claim? Highly unlikely.

[Andresvmb]

There’s nothing Towny about how the claim occurred. The timing, and the way, both scream Scum under pressure needing to come up with something. I already don’t TR the play. So the caginess behind the reads and the play is horrendous. Does anybody here really believe that GC revealing who they believe a nice Town core would be would place them any more in harms way than any other Town making arguments about why other players are Town (and being correct)?

This is nonsense. It’s obvious bullshit. And it’s highly annoying. Either they come clean, or they die. This is extremely simple to me.

[Andresvmb]

(1) ...if they have the crumb, why not?? (2) i don't know, because he thinks it's for the best??

Why are you so intent on defending crappy play? I don’t get it. What they’re doing is mechanically wrong. How can you not agree?

[Andresvmb]

Question: if a neighborizers dies, does the neighborhood break up?

i don't think so. i recall seeing a recent game where the hood remained open after the neighbourizer died.

Yeah and I was the Neighborizer. That’s why I know what the thought process behind it is. In a way, it’s very similar to a Town Fruit Vendor. So there’s literally no reason after you’ve revealed your claim not to reveal your targets. It’s beneficial for the Town as a whole to know.

[Andresvmb]

Well I can see a very obvious reason to not spout off about potential future targets.

This is clearly not what I’m asking for. They’ve made a claim that could be verified by the person they’ve already targeted and they’re refusing to reveal it. It’s totally nonsensical.

[Andresvmb]

(1) ...if they have the crumb, why not?? (2) i don't know, because he thinks it's for the best??

Why are you so intent on defending crappy play? I don’t get it. What they’re doing is mechanically wrong. How can you not agree?

i agree!! i literally said i think it's annoying he's not claiming the hoodmate!! but what is the point!! *why* is that a scumclaim if he doesn't wanna claim it?? when the role is nai in the first place??

You are so biased against Dunn and maybe in favor of GC that you’re out here trying to find a way to excuse a Scummy slot in a way I really can’t wrap my head around. Why aren’t you pressuring GC to do the obvious so we can move on? And what do you make of all the other issues I’ve pointed to?

[Andresvmb]

HAHAHA

I knew it.

Alright, Green Crayons can die. If they flip Scum, flip Datisi.

[Andresvmb]

Neighborizing you makes no sense.

Green Crayons claimed yesterday to have you as a mid-tier Town, and you were tunneling Town. But you’re part of their carefully curated Town block?

Please.

[Andresvmb]

????????????

do you genuinely think i'm scum with green, and we're faking a hood together to get him out of shit?

Had they tried to Neighborize RTP I would have been more inclined to believe it.

[Andresvmb]

How does any of this make any sense. Like something is clearly off here. I’ll go back and think.

[Andresvmb]

????????????

do you genuinely think i'm scum with green, and we're faking a hood together to get him out of shit?

Had they tried to Neighborize RTP I would have been more inclined to believe it.

My guy. There is no world where scum!Datisi claims to be neighborizers by his buddy who may or may not flip today.

I don't think we know GC's alignment, but that is just a dumb tunnel take you're spewing right now.

Okay, yes. I agree.

[Andresvmb]

But does Datisi make sense to you as their target for the Neighborizing?

[Andresvmb]

Argh.

UNVOTE:

This game is horrible.

[Andresvmb]

Fucking claim correctly next time. This is so dumb. I’m really annoyed.

[Andresvmb]

also andres why are you unvoting? what's making you change your mind here?

I need to think.

I have {GC, VPB, Elements} v. {Duchess/Cookie Monster, RLotus} as the fundamental fight in this game, with Scum on one side, Town on the other. If GC is Town, there’s probably a very good chance Dunn is Scum (and vice versa).

Not that the Neighborizer claim does much for me. I still need to understand all of the other behavior which I found Scummy. And then why the hell is RTP dead? They would have been way off about the game in general.

[Andresvmb]

v. {Duchess/Cookie Monster, RLotus, Dunnstral}*

[Andresvmb]

boy, you're stubborn.

Also, why is this your reaction? You agree that they should have claimed their target, but I’m the one who is stubborn? Ridiculous.

[Andresvmb]

There’s no necessarily about any of that. It’s what I perceived D1.

If Dunn is Scum, I don’t really think I’m going to believe anybody telling me you [VPB], or Green Crayons is Scum for example. But if Dunn is Town? The reverse begins to look like a possibility (for some of the reasons I’ve already spoken about).

I thought Elements was Town D1. I did. But look at how Green Crayons approached Elements. A lot of wishy washiness, comments about how they are more on the Town side of the ledger, but certainly a potential option D1 (though not preferable to Dunn/maxwell for instance). It seems like a Scum player not wanting to make it too obvious that they’re aligned with someone else while defending them (and Elements did have some pressure on them D1 from RTP and me).

Elements went hard against RLotus D1, as did I of course. So probably not SvS. And given RTPs and Italiano’s flips, I think we have a Scum in {VPB, Datisi, RLotus}. And of course, Duchess and Green Crayons did have that bitter fight towards the beginning of D1, and Green Crayons hasn’t let go of that read. So yeah, somewhat convoluted I know. But that’s a bit what’s informing that fundamental fight I’m seeing. If Green Crayons flips Scum, I would certainly want to re-read {VPB, Datisi, Elements}. I think that makes sense. If Dunn flips Scum, then those three players are probably Town, and then you would look at {RLotus, Cookie Monster, and Dunnstral} and maybe a few others I’m forgetting.

And again, I do think confirming the Neighborizer role would be a bit silly for Scum buddies. Unless the role is a complete fabrication of course.

[Andresvmb]

This game is messy. I don’t trust any of you. And that Neighborizer claim was handled horribly.

I want Elements to come back. It’s been 3 days since they said they would post and catch up and they haven’t. We have way too many players that just don’t feel like they’re trying particularly hard. Cookie Monster feels like they’re cruising somehow after having Duchess do some of the heavy lifting and them posting a reads list. The engagement this game is just too low.

[Andresvmb]

I also don’t know that I believe that RTP was wrong about everything but they were NK’ed. And them claiming a Macho modifier certainly wouldn’t have gotten them killed given their history of false claims (they even fake claimed Mason as Town in a game, I mean c’mon).

[Andresvmb]

Andres flailing wildly against the claim is probably not scum

How was I flailing wildly against the claim by GC exactly? So you thought that claiming Neighborizer but hiding the identity of their target N1 was reasonable?

[Andresvmb]

- had a post around mid day one where it seemed like he's town on italiano, but made absolutely no attempts of genuinely convincing anyone

So I ISO’ed Dunn. This isn’t the only important read they threw out there D1. They also said that they didn’t like the RTP wagon. And never voted for either RTP or Italiano. However, they have been very focused on midwaybear. And RTP didn’t really believe the slot was Scum and defended there, relying on meta.

Dunn has lurked, yes. I can’t tell how much, there’s some disagreement about whether it’s alignment indicative, and I don’t know that it’s enough for me. However, RTP did have an interesting take at the end of the day that GC could be Town, and that they thought that Dunn could be Scum instead (1580). As I’ve already detailed, if GC is Town, I broadly agree with this take and would go with some of the slots on this POE. RTP was wrong on Italiano, and they were wrong about me (we need to fix this, btw). But their take fits with what I’ve described as the warring factions in the game.

I’m sour about how that whole claim situation went down. I’ll take a step back for a bit.

[Andresvmb]

Why are you being so aggressive Andres? I don't recall you acting in this manner at all Iin bears.

I am simply trying to clarify this muddled view of the game I have. And the only way I know how to do it is by putting people on edge, pushing hard. If I thought there were others that were correctly viewing the game and my slot, and were probing aggressively, I wouldn’t feel the need to do it. I would take the role that I like better - which is to from the background a bit express my point of view. Here I’m having to dig for it, and I’m not comfortable in that position. And I’m also getting a lot of the questions and skepticism from the leading voices in the game. And if Dunn flips Town, it’s not going to get easier.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Cookie Monster

[Andresvmb]

If I’m going wrong on Green Crayons, I believe this to be the reasonable alternative. I spent a little bit of time re-reading Duchess, and something didn’t seem to add up to me. They were highly critical of Italiano in 90, which they re-affirmed in 223, but then seemed intent on burying Green Crayons for their questioning there shortly thereafter (which we all know and I won’t rehash). I also expressed a lot of skepticism of how RLotus seemed to be pushing VPB (1170). I maybe didn’t pay enough attention to Duchess’ arguments against VPB in 1022, 1025, and 1026, which seem to borrow a lot from them.

For example, RLotus argues that VPB’s reads are rather non-committal in 869. In that last string of posts I quoted, Duchess makes the argument that VPB has been consistently sitting on the fence and is “leaving every door and window open”.

Cookie Monster in their latest reads list has {Elements, VPB, Datisi} as Scum. I seriously doubt this is anywhere near correct. I have had my share of doubts, but I do think Datisi and VPB are simply trying to figure out the game. Interestingly enough, from looking back, Elements had a really good view of the game in 1451, provided you make a few assumptions. I do really think Duchess v. Green Crayons was SvT. And perhaps Green Crayons was just getting annoyed at me for pushing them in the way that I did.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway, I have also spent some time thinking about Dunn. I really don’t think it’s going to flip Scum, and it’s mainly because of the players that were willing to compromise and vote there. And I haven’t found an individual post of Dunn’s I actually scum read. Most of the arguments against Dunn are situational, or from their lack of thread presence. Well, why aren’t we pushing Cookie Monster for those things then?

[Andresvmb]

Anyway, I’m getting a bit tired of these arguments around my “aggression”, or how my play has been “puzzling”. Unless you’ve played more than 5 games with me, I don’t care for your meta on how I play Town.

[Andresvmb]

can you spell out who are those players that are willing to compromise on dunn that make you think he's town?

Since I’m also landing on {VPB, You} Town, and I’m trusting RTP’s read of midwaybear for now, that leaves {RLotus, maxwell}. maxwell expressed a willingness to vote Dunn while criticizing their vote for Green Crayons, and RLotus voted there early today.

[Andresvmb]

and just by looking at day 2, do you really feel like dunn is trying to solve this game?

I find Cookie Monster a much worse offender in this regard than Dunn today.

[Andresvmb]

So you don’t agree with me reads? So what? Not everyone can be perfect I have my views and my reads but don’t worry about it if this is how you feel I just won’t put readslists out there anymore

Please don’t stop posting because I criticized you. Or expressing your point of view. You know, it’s entirely possible you’re right and I’m horribly wrong. The more I probe folks in this game, the more I want to discard my entire perspective and start from scratch.

[Andresvmb]

I can’t be voted it won’t help we have to find scum

Unfortunately I will ask you to clarify this.

[Andresvmb]

Oy I’m so weak.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: VPBaltar

[Andresvmb]

I just read VPB’s ISO. And you know what. The fence sitting that RLotus and Elements described. The opportunism. The shiftiness. It really actually is there. Even today - VPB’s top SRs were Dunn and Elements. But then there seems to be some momentum against midwaybear (who btw they had near the top of their pyramid earlier in the game). And where does VPB’s vote go? There. They defended Italiano, and couldn’t see a Scum perspective. But where did their vote end up D1? And what was the reason? For “information”.

There’s something that’s been nagging at me. VPB has been trying to subtly discredit me for the longest time. Some discussions with RLotus immediately spring to mind, but there’s numerous instances of this. And they have been trying to instigate every major conflict in the game I can remember.

[Andresvmb]

VPB has been sarcastic about arguments against them. But doesn’t seem to have any sort of solid stances I can recall at all. They all shift when convenient. You are seeing it with midway now. When it became obvious RTP was Town, they TR there, but not without encouraging whoever might have a SR there. Happened with Italiano too. And I suspect it’s happening with Dunn.

[Andresvmb]

^this applies mostly to TRs. SRs? Not really, since VPB has been very consistent about Dunn being Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Cookie Monster’s reaction just on this page would be amazing coming from Scum. It would be fantastic theater from a player that hasn’t completed that many games. I think it’s genuine.

[Andresvmb]

@Cookie Monster I think you’re wrong about both Datisi and VPB being Scum together. That just doesn’t seem right. I actually think that VPB set out to pocket Datisi after a certain while. They first had Datisi as null but once Datisi expressed a TR, VPB has hardened their TR read on Datisi because it’s working out very well for them. That’s a theory.

[Andresvmb]

It’s not a reaction to your vote. I’ve been feeling this whole time that I’m way off with every push I make. I sided with you against RLotus and that has over time started to feel wrong. I started pushing Green Crayons, and that again started to feel like it was wrong. Particularly after their claim. Then I pushed Cookie Monster, and based on their reaction, I really doubt they’re Scum. And then I read your ISO, and I realized that the game started to make some sense if you assume that you’re Scum. So that’s how I landed here.

[Andresvmb]

Your jump on Italiano is actually quite Scummy. I don’t know how I didn’t see that before.

[Andresvmb]

Your jump on Italiano is actually quite Scummy. I don’t know how I didn’t see that before.

It's not though? I was very transparent with why I voted italiano. The fact you had a go nowhere vote, made a big deal out of examining the wagon, forced a GC claim (off wagon), and now are trying to make hay on me for weak sauce seems more scummy...but what you do you.

Weak sauce? How are they weak sauce? I really do think you helped instigate the seemingly permanent Duchess v. Green Crayons fight. You have tried to get RLotus to stop TR’ing me repeatedly. You’ve encouraged Datisi interminably in their push on Dunn which you yourself of course have tried to carry out. And when you had massive pull with Datisi D1, instead of trying to dissuade them aggressively away from Italiano who you TR, you decided to succumb to their bad points and vote there. For information and consolidation. Which are really weak reasons to consolidate anywhere in my view, which you agreed with when I expressed them D1. You also made a silly post trying to coerce a hammer. And despite you SR’ing RLotus at various points throughout the game, you’ve made the point that they’re too Scummy to be Scum. And every now and then keep asking them questions. Which is bizarre to me.

[Andresvmb]

Like you’ve tried to insert an out on every SR you have expressed (did it with Elements too, saying you didn’t have much confidence it was correct), except for Dunn.

[Andresvmb]

More people should consider this lol

There’s no momentum, yet midwaybear felt the need to post this? So I’m just making it up?

[Andresvmb]

GC town

Go on

As in, why specifically is GC town here, and do you think Duchess is scum?

He isn't being cagey about his reads in that post. He is using a metaphor to explain his viewpoint

those were 2 separate points.
you just assumed they were one and the same.

Then explain specifically where he is being cagey about his reads. I don't see it and need an explanation

I don't know exactly what kind of push I was expecting to see, but if I recall correctly there was some discussion just before that time of Italiano possibly being an easy early push, and what I saw pinged me, so I wanted to nip it in the bud.

This post is screaming TMI

Do you think Duchess and Italiano are scum together? Or that duchess was scum trying to pocket a low hanging fruit townie?

Bring the smoke then, a vote puts about as much pressure on me as the bottom of a puddle.

Are you usually this combative as town? Or is this game pissing you off?

You call that combative?

As a reformed toxic player, I'm sure you wouldn't understand casual combativeness.

Yeah, I think Duchess had a bit of a bad faith response to GC

VP, where did I respond in bad faith to GC?

You've called his posting strawmanning and loaded questions variously, which seems combative when you could just answer the questions.

You also seem to be telling RTP to bring it. Your overall demeanor seems aggressive. Just curious if that 'fight me' attitude is common to your town play.

You did. Trying to argue that you didn’t is laughable.

[Andresvmb]

- his way of dismissing/shading me gives me vibes of scum who wants to scumread me but doesn't know how / doesn't want me to get back on their ass again - like for the amount of things he implies are scummy about me i don't see how he can have me as lolnull

Which posts of his do you feel like he is implying you're scummy?

i went to look for these but i opened my own iso instead of italiano's, and it took me a good 5 seconds to figure out why italiano's posts aren't appearing on the screen

anyway

615 gives me the vibe of shading me for not giving him the same ~benefit of the doubt~ that i apparently want for myself
which i did call out at the time (618), i don't think i got a response

1./5. the game is dead because 4-5 people are barely playing or not playing at all and the moderator had abandoned us for half a week too. wow.

The fact that it doesn't at least somewhat frustrate you or allow you to understand why someone else would be frustrated by it is telling to me.

i was calling out the "this game is dead, i can't figure it out" thing as blatantly obvious to figure out, and his conclusion from that is that it's weird that i'm not frustrated by it (which is false and i never said that but besides the point) and that it's "telling" to him. what's it telling?

You scumreading me for your reasons are goofy to me, but I’m not gonna change your mind and I’m not gonna try to, I’m gonna move on.

and this just, like ok my reasons are "goofy". am i scum bullshitting? am i a townie making a mistake? nah my reasons are just goofy he's not gonna try to change my mind

pedit: dude i am trying i'm braindead again give me a bit

Ok, thanks. I can see that from your perspective. I guess there is a certain aloofness to Italiano's play that gives me pause on a scum read, but if I was in your shoes I'd probably find it more scummy than I do.

The second post you cite does indeed look bad.

This is you encouraging Datisi’s wrong Italiano read.

[Andresvmb]

You have tried to get RLotus to stop TR’ing me repeatedly.

RLotus, do you feel like I've tried to influence your read of Andres in anyway?

And this is ridiculous. RLotus called you out on it early in the game already. Of course you have. So you constantly asking people if they TR me is not a way of trying to get them to re-evaluate without having to say anything?

[Andresvmb]

Anyway those people can speak for themselves. All I’m saying is - your ISO is littered with defensiveness at being SR, shifty positions when most convenient, and a few hard positions that don’t seem to move regardless of what happens, which strikes me as strategic positioning and not a player that’s actually uninformed.

[Andresvmb]

few hard positions

What have your hard positions been this game, btw?

I should rephrase. It’s not necessarily that you haven’t had reads that you actually stick to. Because yeah, I’ve had multiple reads I am going back on as I’m trying to evaluate what’s happening. It’s that you’re doing it in reverse. You express a TR (say, for example, Elements). But the minute they started questioning you aggressively, you went back on it and pushed back hard. RLotus has stopped questioning you so aggressively, though early in the game they pushed you hard. And so your read went from Scum to asking them questions and trying to engage them. Italiano SR you, so you discredited them. But once it started to seem somewhat untenable, you threw out a TR, only to leave enough room there to vote when the time came. RTP? They SR you, and you threw a lot at them. Until they softened their stance against you, and they expressed a lot of emotion that also made them seem Town. Then you changed your tune. It all just feels very convenient to me.

[Andresvmb]

This is you encouraging Datisi’s wrong Italiano read.

Because I asked him to explain his read. Wut?

So you saying that the second post they quoted looked bad is only you asking them to express their read, but not reinforcing it?

[Andresvmb]

Still waiting on that midway momentum

Maxwell and Datisi have both already expressed interest in voting there, or have voted there. That’s nothing to you?

[Andresvmb]

@Mod I’m VLA until tomorrow night.

[Andresvmb]

Datisi, VPB, and Andres scumteam

So you think I go out of my way to vote my Partner, instead of just voting you? Why? Are you high?

[Andresvmb]

That Claim by Cookie Monster is too specific so I’m going to assume that it’s just Town.

@Cookie, a word of advice for future games. Just because you’re upset, it doesn’t mean that you should be (i) self-voting, and (ii) revealing your claim under limited pressure. You’re playing against the Town win condition by needlessly revealing information about your role.

[Andresvmb]

I remember thinking it was like a lifeline that someone was actually vocalizing some rationality with the post or two Baltar made about Duchess's interaction with me (the last two you quoted)

I would like for you to re-evaluate this based on Cookie Monster’s claim and self-vote.

[Andresvmb]

why are we getting bogged down on the momentum point?

Who is we here? Because VPB was the one who kept bringing it up. Not me.

[Andresvmb]

what about it is so amazing to you? also would cookie being an alt affect this opinion?

Do you agree that I was right, now that Cookie Monster has made that incredibly detailed claim? Or no?

[Andresvmb]

i didn't get that feeling, at least not specifically with me.

You want to know what I think? I think you’re looking for things that are way too obvious, instead of trying to figure out the subtle ways in which VPB has been pushing you in the wrong direction. And since you naturally don’t trust me I think you’re not going to pay any attention to much of what I say until it becomes really obvious that you’re paying attention to the wrong voices.

[Andresvmb]

You're assuming this claim is real as opposed to just being erratic?

You’re not serious.

[Andresvmb]

Btw, you still haven't explained why you wanted to focus on the Italiano wagon and then voted off it.

I’m voting for you. So you can drop this now.

[Andresvmb]

I don't see why not. It also looks like you are setting yourself up to vote me here.

You think I’m setting myself up to voting for you? If I wanted to vote for you, I would have announced intention to hammer since you’re at E-1. Have I done that? No.

[Andresvmb]

i do not. i've seen scum claim bullshit, and i feel like doc is one of favourite scum fakeclaims. the way it was made is horrible, the self-voting + claiming pr screams AtE and survivalism as opposed to... idk, anything genuine.

Except Cookie wasn’t close to execution, and your survivalism claim fails simply because Cookie Monster is self-voting when they could actually get run up and executed. Like we can’t have it both ways here. If they’re AtE’ing with their self-vote, then they’re not really acting like they want to live. They could be playing a psychological game to get players to back off from them. But it’s not survivalist on the surface.

[Andresvmb]

where is andres setting himself up to vote you?

Gotta admit I was sort of trolling when I said 2340, but part of me viewed it as some sort of shade that Andres could point to when he decides to hammer me.

Andres, what is your reasoning for believing that bullshit but pushing on GC's verifiable claim so hard? Are you just gullible?

You’re really Scum aren’t you? I backed off GC, and said that after their claim I re-evaluated. And the claim did need to get pushed - they were hiding an important part of their claim.

[Andresvmb]

^I wasn’t trying to quote midwaybear there just to clarify.

[Andresvmb]

Btw, you still haven't explained why you wanted to focus on the Italiano wagon and then voted off it.

I’m voting for you. So you can drop this now.

Yeah, you voted me after I pointed this out, as far as I recall. I'd like you to explain your reasoning prevoting me

I don’t know why my voting pattern matters as much for my argument. I have been defending Dunn for example because I believe there’s Scum on the Italiano wagon, and the same wagon practically speaking isn’t going to result in a Scum execution. That in and of itself should tell you that I am acting consistent with my thinking as it pertains to that wagon. My vote will sometimes go to who I want to sort better and think is Scummy, and not be completely fixed on the one argument I’ve made. Unless I thought the entire Scum Team was on the Italiano wagon, and I don’t believe that, then it’s not really a great argument you’re making.

[Andresvmb]

except there were mutliple people voting and/or showing interest in them and dgb calling for more votes

And DGB has pull why? They just replaced in, and haven’t done much of anything. And I clearly backed off of them.

[Andresvmb]

and like it's obviously not survivalistic on the surface because "self-voting brings you closer to execution" but is it really never used as a reverse psychology kinda "ok then vote me" thing?? and coupled w claiming pr, which is also something that so very often makes people not wanna vote someone?

I literally just wrote that it could be a psychological trick. I’ve already added the caveat you’re using to diminish the point I was trying to make.

And Green Crayons also made a PR claim that made people back off them, and it doesn’t really say anything about their alignment. Yet you don’t have a problem there why? Because you were neighborized?

[Andresvmb]

not necessarily but if they're town it's still a town voice encouraging votes. and you backed off them after they claimed, no?

No. Maybe look again.

[Andresvmb]

and like it's obviously not survivalistic on the surface because "self-voting brings you closer to execution" but is it really never used as a reverse psychology kinda "ok then vote me" thing?? and coupled w claiming pr, which is also something that so very often makes people not wanna vote someone?

I literally just wrote that it could be a psychological trick. I’ve already added the caveat you’re using to diminish the point I was trying to make.

And Green Crayons also made a PR claim that made people back off them, and it doesn’t really say anything about their alignment. Yet you don’t have a problem there why? Because you were neighborized?

yeah, i know. but you also wrote "it's not survivalistic on the surface", which made me think you were thinking that's the depth of my thoughts there.

because green has kinda done things this game? and their screaming match with you was the opposite of survivalistic?

This isn’t going to go anywhere, and I’m a bit tired of engaging in this back and forth. I am interpreting Cookie Monster’s claim + self-vote to be coming from a place of injured pride / hurt. They’ve expressed similar feelings ever since I dismissed their reads list, and they read genuine to me. They could be a trick - that’s not out of the question. And VPB is correct in saying that it’s erratic. But I personally don’t see it as survivalist. I have been wrong in reading emotion before so this could be wrong. But since VPB, who I’m SR’ing, seems so intent on tearing down the claim, it makes me want to believe it.

[Andresvmb]

You may be scum here who is eager to expose as much town info as possible. You couldn't fucking stand that GC wouldn't say who was in the neighborhood, but you think an unpressured self vote, doc claim is obviously real? I have a hard time believing either of those come from a town mindset.

So I’m what, the fourth player that after expressing some mistrust in your direction, you feel the need to find some bullshit excuse to SR? Noted.

[Andresvmb]

Can somebody please explain how I am trying to expose as much Town info as possible? Does that sound like a legitimate argument? Because it really isn’t. And accusing me of this because I was attempting to get clarity on a Neighborizer claim that was made is a gigantic stretch.

[Andresvmb]

It literally didn't make sense at the time, and I think you're trying to force it to make sense now. I'm asking you to actually explain your logic here because I want to know if you were scum or town bullshitting. I'd honestly prefer if you're town to just admit you weren't making sense there, rather than doubling down and saying that defending Dunn is somehow logically the same as hunting on the wagon, because it just isn't.

The problem is that you and everybody else seems to want easy answers. It’s like oh I thought Scum was on the wagon, so I immediately should have restricted all of my attention and focus to figuring out who on the wagon was Scum. When that’s not how I operate at all, and it’s a very narrow way of looking at the game.

I can pursue whatever avenue I want to figuring out who is Town and who is Scum. Even if I maintained that the Italiano wagon had Scum, there’s nothing wrong or illogical with trying to sort certain slots I found Scummy outside of the wagon. This isn’t complicated. I can do it, and then return to the voters on the wagon and decide that maybe I should be pushing there again. The timeline of how I approach that process is meaningless. Because again, unless I was arguing that the Italiano wagon contained all of the Scum, and I wasn’t, I can probe whoever I feel like.

[Andresvmb]

Cookie claimed Doctor. If they’re Town, of course there’s a Scum motivation to diminishing the slot or trying to get it executed, so that they don’t block a potential NK.

[Andresvmb]

I could then move on to forcing another person to claim today and I can sort out priorities with NKs. This is exactly what I'm saying you're doing.

Yeah see but here’s the thing. I actually haven’t pushed anybody to the point where they might claim. Just because Green Crayons did it out of turn and without intent to hammer, and Cookie Monster did it after I had unvoted based on their emotional reaction, then you really can’t make this argument in good faith.

[Andresvmb]

You’re wrong - I know the reasons why I pushed where I did, and I’ve been as transparent as I can about them. It’s not unnecessarily complicated.

[Andresvmb]

Still working with a townblock of VPB, Datisi, Andre, Cookie, GC. VPB being the most likely place that I am wrong.

Meaning I think the scum is in Dunn, midway, maxwell, DGB, and Momrangal.

Considering Dunn, DGB, and Maxwell are on the midway wagon, I figure there is probably at least one scum on midway. I'd prefer someone like dunn, maxwell, or dgb currently.

VOTE: Dunn

I was happy with Duchess being town beforehand, so the claim kind of confirms it for me. I really wish he didn't claim tho.

I find this endlessly frustrating.

Please go look at the group of players that expressed interest in voting Dunn, or voted Dunn to begin the day. And then tell me why the argument you’re making makes sense for midway but not for Dunn too.

[Andresvmb]

I really don't like the midway wagon though. My top town andre, our 2 PRs, and myself are all off the wagon. Makes it seem like there must be scum voting there.

Don’t get me wrong though, this makes a tremendous amount of sense to me.

[Andresvmb]

Andres were you satisfied with Baltar’s explanation of his change on midway?

I’m not satisfied with anything VPB is posting I think they’re Scum.

[Andresvmb]

I agree with this
VOTE: Dunn

Elements/DGB voted for Dunn. They might not be voting there now. But they voted for them when they were getting run up. And maxwell also expressed comfort with executing there.

[Andresvmb]

I could vote Dunn since his vote on GC was that bad, could still see it coming from town, but would be shocked, shocked if {Dunn, midway, mom} contains 0 scum

Here.

[Andresvmb]

Lots of people comfortable with voting Dunn and yet his wagon collapsed

And? The wagon on you collapsed too. That in a vacuum says exactly 0.

[Andresvmb]

I just randomly bumped the topic while trying to scroll. Apologies.

[Andresvmb]

Andres, would you say at this point that your entire game view hinges on me being scum?

No I wouldn’t say this at all.

I think RLotus is Town. I think Datisi is Town too. I have a feeling midwaybear is going to flip Town. I have Cookie Monster as Town following their reaction + claim as I’ve explained. I am a little less sure of Green Crayons as Town (which I thought they could be), particularly now that they’ve expressed intent to hammer midway (but I wouldn’t go back on this just yet). Elements I was positive on. I can’t say I find DGB’s posts Towny though. But they don’t ping me either so it’s whatever for now, and I need more from DGB. I don’t know what Dunn is doing agreeing with the person that has most aggressively pushed them in the game. But here we are. Momrangal funny enough I do think is maybe Town. What I’m most puzzled by is the fact that they have Dunn as their top TR (or did at one point). That seemed bizarre to me. And Mom also had me as Scum which is just sad. maxwell I actually have as potential Scum.

I would say that if midwaybear flips Scum, then I’ll rethink my entire approach to the game. That would make me mostly wrong and you VPB would look better for it. But I have a feeling that’s not what we’re going to see.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah I did. And then I changed my mind.

[Andresvmb]

dgb, how much of the game have you read?

I didn't read anything before my entry, and I won't, either.

@DGB did you not voluntarily enter the game? Then why ask to be executed out of it, or enter with this attitude, if you were in this head space? It makes no sense at all.

[Andresvmb]

So if I read you right, your best guess at the scum team right now is VP-elements-maxwell?

Elements/DGB I do not know if they are Scum. I think one of you and maxwell probably flips Scum yeah. You more so than maxwell.

[Andresvmb]

Andres, can you try to show me some examples of Baltar acting in an opportunistic manner? Just some links would be fine.

Sure I will try and put some examples out there.

[Andresvmb]

So if I read you right, your best guess at the scum team right now is VP-elements-maxwell?

Elements/DGB I do not know if they are Scum. I think one of you and maxwell probably flips Scum yeah. You more so than maxwell.

Well based on your town reads, that seems to be the only possible solve that I see in your post. Who are my scum buddies in your eyes if not them?

Why are you pressuring me so hard to give you a 3/3 solve? Like why is that important at this stage? I have some TRs, some players I could see as Scum but I am null on right now, and two players I would to execute today: you, and maxwell. From going back to the early part of the game, I think Harumi's posts look bad. That is the slot maxwell replaced into.

[Andresvmb]

^two players I would vote to execute today*

[Andresvmb]

How am I tunneling you? I have probably poked and voted half the game, and re-read different parts of the game multiple times, and expressed reads on everybody. Could I be wrong on you? Yeah, I can always be wrong. It happens all the time. But everybody does this to some extent - we all makes unconscious or conscious decisions to SR those that we feel are pushing players we either TR or don't think deserve to be pushed a certain way. Like why is that surprising?

[Andresvmb]

And why are you so intent on breaking me out of a bad tunnel? Weren't you SR'ing me like a minute ago? So am I Town or Scum?

[Andresvmb]

I think you've had some pretty garbage pushes and general takes, but that doesn't guarantee you are scum.

Be more specific. Outside of me pushing you now, which obviously you'll call garbage, what else have I done that has been bad in terms of general takes?

[Andresvmb]

My point is that your opinion on dunn doesn't logically flow.

Now, people say illogical things all the time. I certainly do. But if someone came in the thread and had Dunn listed near the top of their town reads list, you can believe I'd be suspicious of that person given how that is clashing with my viewpoint as a town member.

Can you clarify to me why you have Momrangal as lockTown again?

[Andresvmb]

Your reaction to the GC claim. Your "hunt on wagon" malarkey. Your reaction to the Dunn wagon at the start of the day.

I can absolutely be frustrated at a player withholding information in a way that I feel does not help the Town. I have explained in excruciating detail why I have acted the way I have acted today. So my "hunt on wagon" is not malarkey. And in fact, my top two SRs at this stage are both players that landed on Italiano. So how is that malarkey, exactly?

And what is wrong with my reaction to the Dunn wagon? I tend to be skeptical that a group of players that collectively voted for Town would succeed in voting out Scum when agreeing with each other again. How is this even remotely controversial?

[Andresvmb]

Yeah man. Very recent development indeed.

Perhaps it's been recent, even though my take wasn't. But so what? You keep getting stuck on something that is no longer the case for no good reason at all. If you are not willing to describe me as either alignment, and mostly seem to be what, confused? at how I am going about the game, then why are you so intent on fighting my views? Why not just ignore me then?

[Andresvmb]

You acted like he was going to get yeeted in a matter of just a few posts, which was highly unlikely.

Wait, maybe I misremember it. Wasn't Dunn at E-1? What was so unlikely about them potentially getting executed quickly?

[Andresvmb]

i believe that's Y-1, just fyi.

No, it was E-1.

[Andresvmb]

931 - RTP put it better than me. This reasoning is precisely why Battle Mage is not and should not be thought of as lockTown.

[Andresvmb]

VPB as Scum makes a lot of sense to me. Here is why:

[Page 15] - 363 - So by this point, some players had expressed Scum Reads of Italiano. From where I stand, this post accomplishes a few things. It allows VPB to easily change their mind (it’s not particularly definitive), while gauging interest for executing there. I would also note that up until this point, VPB was quite devoid of positions in the game.
392 - And here, VPB calls Italiano “opportunistic enough to be bad Scum”.
[Page 17] - 416 - The big switch regarding midway bear over where they ultimately landed D1 (even though VPB landed on Italiano for similar reasons) is also very confusing. This is only the first time that VPB calls midway bear Town. But it won’t be the last.
[Page 18] - 434 - Here is VPB encouraging the view that Italiano is Scum without getting directly involved.
And in 442, VPB echoes Duchess’ concern about Italiano seemingly looking to avoid calling anybody Scum, again without placing a vote or going too hard against Italiano (who by now had verbalized some suspicion of VPB, which became even more concrete in 445).
459 - This is really where I start to think that VPB reveals too much about themselves. Notice Datisi’s reaction to Italiano’s 454 (where they called themselves bad Town and began to express a lot of frustration and some defeatism) - a complete lack of empathy. If anything, frustration that Italiano is essentially saying that they won’t contribute much to the game. I can very much understand Datisi’s reaction, actually. It’s the same reaction I am having towards DGB’s posting today. VPB? They actually TR the emotional response, but describe every word coming from Italiano as Scummy.

This is what I would fundamentally describe as opportunistic. VPB isn’t definitely saying Italiano is Town. Or Scum. But if enough players continue pushing Italiano, then VPB can safely vote there and not seem like they are totally flip-flopping.

[Page 23] - 570 - Even after describing the emotion as coming from Town, and after Italiano has come back with some renewed interest in solving the game, VPB announces that they will switch their vote over to Italiano “soon ish” (but does not actually go through with it).

[Page 25] - 624 - And here, VPB actually describes their progression of Italiano in a very curious way, and begins to question RLotus for opposing their preferred execution of Dunn by casting doubt on the merit of Italiano as Scum (but in a very vague way - basically saying that their gut pinged Town there).

667 - And this is opportunism at its finest. Too Scummy to be Scum, but I will vote there to “move things along”.

684 - If Dunn flips Town, this is the sort of argument I would focus on. This is hard to scrutinize, since it is entirely based on a prior experience where Dunn lurked successfully as Scum.

[Page 31] - 758 - VPB again piggybacking off of someone else’s suspicions without exactly expressing a solid point of view. This time, however, it was on RLotus.

[Page 33] - 819 - After Battle Mage replaces Testarossa (and RTP indicates that BM had tanked the slot into solid Scum territory), VPB decides to put a vote down on RTP, who we also know is Town, directly disagreeing with RTP (see the immediate next post). If VPB flips Scum, look for associatives here.

825 - VPB making a case against RTP because they are chaining mis-eliminations and weirdly contradicting themselves is funny in light of the fact that RTP was Town.

Funny enough, RLotus notices this pattern of play in 837, 838, and SRs VPB (correctly in my updated view). 869, 870, 890, 945 are a good re-counting of the pattern I am now noticing as well.

VPB’s reaction to #837 and #838? Defensiveness, hiding behind their push on Dunn as their only major push and therefore not opportunistic (which btw, is so convenient), and attaching themselves to Datisi. This is the main reason I don’t think {Datisi, VPB} are Scum buddies. VPB is actively saying that if you SR them for their play, you should SR Datisi as well. I think a Partner does not do this.

842 - This is now obvious bullshit.

Note that part of VPB’s reasoning behind their push of RTP (that they were acting in a TMI way towards Italiano) completely disintegrated upon closer scrutiny (scrutiny RTP applied), yet they do not seem to rescind their SR of RTP. Rather, they find another reason to continue pushing there.

906 - This reaction to RLotus’ suspicions is revealing. Obviously RLotus v. VPBaltar is not SvS. This is also the reason I felt we were being led astray by Scum, and placed 1 Scum in that group. This feels correct still, with VPB as the main contender for Scum amongst the three.

921 - And this is a very general way of deflecting pressure without directly combating RLotus’ detailed explanation.

955 - Does anybody think this is a Towny vote? Because it’s not. RLotus went through a tremendous amount of trouble to justify their vote and reasoning behind their view of VPB. What does VPB do? Vote RLotus in an obvious attempt at a discredit.

And this is only after re-reading through Page 39.

[Andresvmb]

I'll just put this out there for now:

Town
{ItalianoVD [Town Neapolitan], RTP [Vanilla Town]}
Strong Lean Town
{ }
Lean Town
{RLotus, Datisi, Duchess/Cookie Monster [Loyal Roaming Doctor Claim]}
Slight Lean Town
{Lunar Martian/midwaybear [Vanilla Town Claim], Green Crayons [Neighborizer], Elements/DGB}
Neutral
{Dunnstral}
Slight Lean Scum
{Harumi Ayasato/maxwell, Testarossa/Battle Mage/Momrangal}
Lean Scum
{VPBaltar}

[Andresvmb]

Fundamentally, a lot of us have expressed various versions of the same thing regarding VPB. I think we need to start acting on it. RLotus, Elements/DGB, Duchess/Cookie Monster, and myself have all complained and detailed the shiftiness, opportunism, and mis-representation that VPB has been engaging in. I am no longer willing to give it a pass. I don't know that I am absolutely correct. But out of everyone, I do very much think VPB needs to be voted out.

[Andresvmb]

If I am wrong, so be it. I guess the only thing I can only say about myself is that I am trying to figure things out.

[Andresvmb]

I'm actually enjoying people jumping on me because there are absolutely scum making bad life choices in this mix.

I disagree so much. Why are scum taking such a hard route as opposed to just jump on RTP or Elements when that would be so much safer. Like you are a highly townread slot and my push on you already has shown to have a lot of resistance.

Because it is stupid and bad faith. It hasn't met resistance so much as you're making terrible points that you're trying to take out of context. Anyone can go read the stuff you're pointing to and see how much of a misrepresentation it is.

Multiple people calling you town is indeed resistance. It's like you're not even trying to evaluate the people pushing on you, but instead calling them scum with blanket terms like bad faith.

I'm not surprised as you haven't been trying to solve anyone this game. It's funny that you call my logic stupid
when it is indeed true that you haven't been trying to solve and mainly riding the fence.

It is also rich that you call my logic stupid when your two top scumreads are 1. OMGUSing me, with terrible reasoning(bad faith blahblahblah) 2. Dunn for lurking, even though you've been repeatedly told that he lurks as both alignments. But, you keep Dunn as one of your top scum you can't get it through your head it seems.

@RLotus, why after posting this (and I agree), are you voting Dunn? Do you actually believe Dunn will flip Scum? VPB is still doing what you have previously criticized them for - but this time, to me. Do you not agree?

[Andresvmb]

I didn't have nearly the aggression that game that I do this game, in fact my pushes were very soft, if you want to believe my self meta.

You agree that different games call for different approaches yeah? If you played exactly the same as Scum every time, you would make for a really poor Scum player. And from what I can gather, you don’t seem like a bad Mafia player at all to me.

Like I said if you want to believe my self meta, but I am quite inexperienced as scum to emulate my town game

For the record, I very much believe you now.

[Andresvmb]

I am certain you are doing the exact same. I don't know why people think they are going to wall me to death this game and can just say "VPB is shifty!"

Sure, I’m doing the same.

I’ll say it now - I am not really looking to your opinion for any guidance. It’s useless. I’m looking for others to react.

[Andresvmb]

Lol this is the most "keeping my options open" list I've seen in a while. You have NO strong town reads at this point.

Instead of making a clearly bad assumption, why don’t you ask me what the categories mean? When I place someone on the “Strong Town Read” category, that’s a ride or die. That’s a “I’m never going back on that read this game”. I only place players there when the evidence is overwhelming. We’re not there yet.

[Andresvmb]

Why are you apologizing for a misyeet already? Especially one you claim to be super confident in.

And this is just dumb honestly. I’m not apologizing for a misyeet. I always acknowledge the reality that I could be wildly misreading the game, or have everything completely backwards. It doesn’t mean I don’t believe what I’m arguing.

[Andresvmb]

Also, Dunn is in his neutral pile after he flipped a shit the scum were railroading Dunn. Hahahahha

I’m looking for others to react.

I can tell by the way you are kissing Lotus' butt there.


I'd rather not have to waste the last two days of deadline dunking on this garbage wall.

Why do you think midway is town again?

Nah if you’re going to engage me like this, I will ignore your questions thanks.

[Andresvmb]

@andres, the only thing that made you change your mind on lotus was the fact you reread baltar's iso and found him scummy, right?

I am having a lot of trouble with you and VPB just assuming that my entire worldview is centered around VPB being Scum. No, this is incorrect. I feel RLotus is Town because (i) upon re-reading, I shared their way of analyzing things, in particular VPB’s play, (ii) they have consistently tried to read my alignment even when I’ve SR them, and tried to pay attention to my perspective (and for an added bonus have me as Town), and (iii) in RTP’s estimation, RLotus was playing outside of their Scum range, and I respect RTP’s point of view.

If VPB and Dunn both flip Town (and by some miracle the game is still going), then perhaps reconsider RLotus. Based on what I see now, it’s hard to picture RLotus as Scum. I do think RTP was underestimating RLotus’ skill as a Scum player to some extent. But at this stage, it’s not where I see myself voting at all.

[Andresvmb]

answer my earlier q of where you got the feeling baltar was encouraging me into pushing dunn? like i know you think i'm focusing on the wrong things or whatever so please can you work w me here?

I was going through the entire game to try and give some thoughts. I’ll get to this point once I’m done re-reading I’m sure. What I’ll say though is that maybe my earlier description was incorrect. VPB has been insistent throughout that Dunn is Scum. So instead of them encouraging your read of Dunn as Scum, perhaps you guys were just looking to agree on what made Dunn Scummy. I think some of this you have seen today as well.

[Andresvmb]

can you tell me why you're town on midway

My read on midway is kind of soft. If you recall, I was skeptical of Lunar Martian (midway’s predecessor), and indicated that I felt they could be Scum. See 516, 531. And in 655, I was very critical of their POE. I even emphasized that they wouldn’t look good if Italiano flipped Town, which of course is what we found.

However, RTP in 1566 made a point about their predecessor. And so I have over time tempered my skepticism to account for some of the arguments RTP was making.

I didn’t find the Vanilla Town claim sway my read either way. I do think midway needs to post some more and put more content out there. And I definitely wanted them to vote more aggressively D1 for example (see 1588).

[Andresvmb]

where is andres setting himself up to vote you?

Gotta admit I was sort of trolling when I said 2340, but part of me viewed it as some sort of shade that Andres could point to when he decides to hammer me.

There’s also something inherently ridiculous about this post that I don’t believe Scum would make.

Assume for a minute that my view of the game is dead wrong. Which, again, absolutely a possibility. Say VPB is Town, maxwell is Town, and their pushes (or their predecessors pushes) and votes against RTP and Italiano were just wrong-headed, and others have hid behind say RLotus and you as the loud Town voices (or RLotus is Scum). Why is midway not full on TR’ing me, asking me for help, instead of trolling me and pushing me as Scum. How is that a sensible way not to get executed, when out of the three people that they identified as Scum, I was the last one sitting outside of their wagon and could have voted for them in a heartbeat with them at E-1?

And unless Dunn and midwaybear are both Scum together, why is midwaybear voting for VPB instead of trying to vote Dunn and survive?

[Andresvmb]

And why in the hell is maxwell now having second thoughts about midwaybear? That definitely raised some flags for me. You didn’t find that somewhat suspicious? What has midway done at this point at E-1 that would really change your view of how things are developing?

[Andresvmb]

midway's responses here are making me doubt myself somewhat. The comment about him "sort of trolling" andres, the paranoia that andres is scum setting up to vote him. it looks believable enough?

It’s funny, this is what they said was the reason, which I agree with mind you. But unless maxwell knows midwaybear’s and my alignment, why is this their interpretation? I could be Scum avoiding their wagon since they’re my buddy, and we could be distancing. I know for a fact that’s not the case. But maxwell doesn’t. It’s almost like maxwell is chickening out last minute from executing Town.

[Andresvmb]

@Datisi can you comment on VPB’s jarring about-face on Dunn here?

[Andresvmb]

The sudden brakes on the midway wagon also gives me a sense this is correct.

Can you elaborate on this? Because the breaks were applied by DGB and maxwell. Are you saying those players hopped on for Town cred, but one or both of them are potentially Scum?

[Andresvmb]

Why is midway not full on TR’ing me, asking me for help, instead of trolling me and pushing me as Scum. How is that a sensible way not to get executed, when out of the three people that they identified as Scum, I was the last one sitting outside of their wagon and could have voted for them in a heartbeat with them at E-1?

And unless Dunn and midwaybear are both Scum together, why is midwaybear voting for VPB instead of trying to vote Dunn and survive?

iirc, scum!midway has troubles coming up with reads. like his read on the three of us being scum bc we're active is pure nonsense, and he walked back from it not long after. like i can easily see hm knowing i'm about to latch onto him if he doesn't present *something*, and then he presents the first thing he comes up with, which was like... bad. why is he even voting baltar? because he's actively posting??? i don't know.

also he's not really pushing you as scum? hell he's voting *with* you right now.

I’m not going to defend midway’s approach to their Scum Reads today because frankly what you’re saying is true - the reasoning was horrific. But think about what that means for a second. Did the Scum really think that the best way to approach the game was to attack the loudest players in the game, instead of say pressuring some of the easier slots to execute? Because let’s get real for a minute. There are much easier targets than VPB or me for an execution.

[Andresvmb]

if his thoughts about me/you/baltar being scum were actually yknow genuine, i imagine he'd be in here arguing about it??? except he just disappeared???

Multiple players have utterly failed to do this though. Do you not agree? What is DGB doing, for example? Are their positions genuine? How do we even know? They are not aggressively fighting for anything. Momrangal? They listed their view of the game, and they had Dunn as their top Town, and who did they have as Scum again? Me and maxwell? And where are they? How do we know if those reads are genuine? Because as far as I can tell, they’ve explained their read on maxwell but have completely failed to explain their read on me.

I guess my point is - not everybody playing subpar can be Scum. I have a tremendous amount of trouble differentiating bad from Scum. You could potentially be succumbing to a bit of that here.

[Andresvmb]

And I mean Italiano self-hammered, Elements repeatedly voted for themselves wanting to prove others were wrong by their own death. Green Crayons really didn’t claim properly I don’t care what anyone says. Cookie Monster claimed completely unprompted. I mean the list is long regarding sub-optimal play coming from Town.

[Andresvmb]

There’s no universe in which all those actions are all coming from Scum, and we know some of it came from Town for certain. So I would just caution against thinking that every player needs to be aggressively be putting their thoughts out there or have a strong presence to be Town.

[Andresvmb]

i don't know if you missed it, but literally my first words today were "hello why is midwaybear still alive". while i didn't call out max by name, i said i think literally nothing midway's done should get him out of being executed today, so i think it's at least implied that i don't think maxwell's vote change makes any sense.

Yeah it was implied. Now it’s explicit. I think I just wanted to see that point made more specifically.

[Andresvmb]

There’s no universe in which all those actions are all coming from Scum, and we know some of it came from Town for certain.

So I would just caution against thinking that every player needs to be aggressively be putting their thoughts out there or have a strong presence to be Town.

this was never my point. i never said this. i said why i think specifically midway's bad play / doing nothing at these times is scum!indicative. i've said why i think scum is more likely to be in the more quiet people generally, or why town is more likely to be posting in a game like this. but i was never making the argument that "whoever isn't hyper-aggressive solving the game 24/7 is a scumfuck".

Just to clarify, I wasn’t saying that this was exactly your point. I’m just saying - I don’t know that I am particularly good at differentiating what is bad play from Scummy play, so I was just urging caution. That’s all.

[Andresvmb]

what else can midway possibly counterwagon here???

Okay but where are midway’s Scum buddies then? I always try to make the basic assumption that the entire Team is not incompetent. If that were the case, we would more easily have found them. So why is VPB the only viable counter wagon at that point?

[Andresvmb]

The one player I will say makes some sense as a Partner, particularly if Dunn is Town, is RLotus. Let me check if midway voted for Dunn towards the beginning of the day one second.

[Andresvmb]

I don't think that is scummy from Dunnstral because he probably knows his wagon doesn't really go anywhere as scum and just doesn't ask that question.

Like yeah I can’t say midwaybear and Dunn make a lot of sense other than as Scum buddies. After Dunn had seen pressure to begin the day and midwaybear had seen some but not a whole lot of it (and was asked for reads), this is where they landed on Dunn. It just seems so silly for a strategy.

[Andresvmb]

i dunno if he's plain old trying to counterwagon or if he's trying to buddy up to you by encouraging your pet wagon but like

Maybe this needs to be repeated - this isn’t a pet wagon. I have two players I’m willing to land on today for an execution based on what I’ve read this game. And they are VPB and maxwell. VPB is for sure making bad arguments against me. They have been spectacularly dismissive and sarcastic about my perspective, have completely failed to try and empathize, and seem to think that every single player that has pushed them is coming from a place of bad faith. Even when they’ve detailed their cases with a lot of examples, and have otherwise demonstrated a Towny mindset. RTP did it, and changed their mind. Elements did it, and also changed their mind. RLotus did it, and softened their stance. Italiano did it too! And they were ridiculed for it. And now I have done it. You should consider the possibility that it’s just a hilarious blind spot for you and you’re deeply pocketed.

If you scrutinize Harumi’s pushes from D1, they’re actually really horrible.

[Andresvmb]

VPB could be Town, yes. But what I find fascinating is that even after so many players have expressed reservations about VPB and various aspects of their play, VPB still thinks it’s preposterous that anybody would push them. So, everybody is just an idiot then?

[Andresvmb]

I’ll be here on and off for a bit. I know I have been sort of scummy this game, so that makes it difficult to tell whether Datisi is opportunistic scum or aggro town. I think I will lightly meta him to see what I can find. Or if anyone has experience with Datisi, does he normally go this aggressively as town?

Datisi can be very passionate about their stances, yes. As Town. I can still vividly remember fighting them about a read they were 100% spot on about the first time we played (Iconeum). It ended up being key to solving the game.

[Andresvmb]

also while we're talking, i did see that you linked lotus' case on baltar from day one, and come on. that case was bad, i talked about it wayback when.

I don’t believe everyone was just seeing ghosts. Elements made very similarly sounding arguments against VPB only to backtrack. And if you ISO Italiano, they ALSO said that they felt VPB was pushing them in bad faith (towards the beginning of the day). As did RLotus. And I feel the same way. And you’ll recall, I called RLotus’ positioning towards VPB as bad, and a reason for my SR there! But if you re-read with an open mind, you might find that RLotus wasn’t completely off base.

[Andresvmb]

I will grant you - there’s Scum on one side of that argument. So what if some of the players are part of the Scum Team, and are making reasonably sounding arguments against a player that just lashes out like VPB has in response to pressure? But then why did almost all of them backtrack? That’s quite astounding to me.

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE: VPB
I'm going to go back on this vote because VPB has been trying way too hard to be scum here. At least I won't be considering him today.

YOU AREN’T MAKING ANY SENSE.

How does one try very hard to be Scum exactly?

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE: VPB
I'm going to go back on this vote because VPB has been trying way too hard to be scum here. At least I won't be considering him today.

YOU AREN’T MAKING ANY SENSE.

How does one try very hard to be Scum exactly?

I’m so frustrated with you I didn’t read this carefully. You’re saying VPB is demonstrating too much effort for them to actually be Scum. Okay but, your initial reads where that the top posters in {VPB, Datisi, Me} were Scum. So which is it?

[Andresvmb]

i don't know. maybe they're among the lurkers, it's hard to tell with so many inactives.

I’ve been thinking about this. Who do we have as lurkers this game? I’m guessing Dunn, Duchess/Cookie Monster, and Elements/DGB, right? To end D1, Elements was voting RLotus, Duchess had a vote that had been sitting on VPB for a long time (and they were getting replaced), and Dunn was voting midwaybear. It could very well be that midwaybear is Scum with two of those, and they are the only Scum on the Italiano wagon. That’s not something I’m willing to rule out. But I have already mentioned that I think Cookie Monster is Town and why for instance. Are we looking at a {Dunn, midwaybear, DGB} Scum Team? Possibly? It seems a bit far fetched no?

[Andresvmb]

First, I'm not making bad arguments against you. I've pointed out legitimate flaws in the things you've said and your general approach to this day. Everytime you've been forced to acknowledge that, you move the goal posts.

Nah, they’re bad arguments. I haven’t moved the goal posts. Instead, I’ve directly addressed your points. You just keep dismissing my answers. And frankly, they’re terrible reasons to doubt my alignment anyway. If you’re going to argue that not everything I’ve done is completely consistent, then you might as well look in the mirror first.

[Andresvmb]

Second, every person you've listed has indeed argued in bad faith against me. I replied in very specific detail, for example, to the giant shit stream Lotus posted. I specifically showed how what he was trying to argue was incorrect and out of context. I replied in very specific detail to Elements and Duchess.

Okay we might have a difference of opinion as to what it means to argue in bad faith. It is physically impossible for every player that has expressed a particular view of the things you’ve done to be Scum. So in my mind, not everybody is just trying to bury you, or make intentionally malicious arguments against you. I know I’m not. That’s what I think of when I think of arguing in bad faith. Being wrong is not the same as being malicious. You would do well to remember that.

[Andresvmb]

You don't get to come in and say "VPB is shady" and act like I should take that seriously.

I would appeal to the rest of the players. Is this what I’ve done? Have I just said VPB shady, should execute?

[Andresvmb]

So why do you think I owe you seriousness and respect? Because you weren't on italiano and instead left a vote on a go nowhere wagon?

And for the record, I haven’t asked for your respect. Feel free to ignore or dismiss me all you want.

[Andresvmb]

Alright you know what. Why do I even care so much.

VOTE: midwaybear

They’ve claimed VT. If this is wrong, then we’re not hitting a PR at the very least.

[Andresvmb]

If this flips Scum then I’ll happily just shut up and vote for whatever Datisi wants to do.

[Andresvmb]

I return again to the point I made before. You claimed I was manipulating people, but the people allegedly manipulated don't believe it. So now you're trying to revive bad arguments from the past. That's what I mean by moving the goal posts, and that's why I'm done arguing in good faith with you about this.

@RLotus can you comment on this? Do you not believe still any of the points you made earlier?

[Andresvmb]

Pedit: I have never made a hard push on elements or duchess as scum. I can certainly think actions are scummy and bad cases are scummy without reaching a hard conclusion those people have to be scum. Hell, I don't even have a hard conclusion about you. But if you think I'm going to town read you for this case you're trying to make, you're nuts.

Yeah you haven’t made any hard pushes outside of Dunn which you are now also backing from. Not sure why that would be a positive.

[Andresvmb]

Pedit: I have never made a hard push on elements or duchess as scum. I can certainly think actions are scummy and bad cases are scummy without reaching a hard conclusion those people have to be scum. Hell, I don't even have a hard conclusion about you. But if you think I'm going to town read you for this case you're trying to make, you're nuts.

Yeah you haven’t made any hard pushes outside of Dunn which you are now also backing from. Not sure why that would be a positive.

That's not true. I actually pushed pretty hard on lotus because his case was very bad from my perspective. Keep cherry picking.

And now you’re calling them hardTown. So clearly arguing against you is not a reason to be entirely dismissed.

[Andresvmb]

Don’t worry you don’t have to fight me anymore I’m voting midway. I’m effectively conceding.

[Andresvmb]

Why do you care? I’m voting who you SR. If you do strongly believe this is correct, my reasoning for voting there is irrelevant. At worst I’m bussing my buddy.

[Andresvmb]

But my only hard towns are Datisi and momrangal.

I thought those were your lockTowns. I had RLotus as your “hardTown” after 1994, and after you interacted with them in a completely different way.

[Andresvmb]

I want you on record preflip with your reasoning.

I’m sheeping Datisi. Your post stating that you don’t owe me any respect sapped any motivation I had for finishing even re-reading the game or even caring what happens anymore. If this is right, I can stop using my brain or spend time working through scenarios and just rely on you two.

[Andresvmb]

I would rather go after actual scum reads but I have zero qualms.

Why are we rushing? When's deadline?

Also dbg is town which is fantastic

So why am I Scum Mom? I haven’t seen an explanation from you yet.

[Andresvmb]

As a scum neighbor, what is generally the bigger priority is to pocket the said neighbors. I feel like, if you were going to pocket green, you would have claimed to be neighborized sooner way before he was pressured to out who he neighborized.

Wait, what? I never claimed to be neighborized.

[Andresvmb]

Andre's is the most difficult to really explain at the moment but alot of it has to do the with the way he is pushing slots, and how he is making his reads.

And what is this incoherent mumbo jumbo? How I’m making my reads? And how is that, in your estimation?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: VPBaltar

I'm VLA until Friday Night.

[Andresvmb]

Actually I'm mostly confident in Datisi

VPB is the obvious Scum. I don't understand where this is coming from.

[Andresvmb]

Look here's my thinking. Basically, one of {VPB, Datisi} is practically guaranteed Scum. We have one more mis-execution. VPB is very likely to be execution bait if he's Town, since everything he's pushed for has been dead wrong. And given the arguments VPB has put forth, I put decent odds that it's just Scum. So that's what we should do.

[Andresvmb]

Momrangal's hammer and case against me yesterday also look horrendous. Frankly, I would not be surprised if Mom flips Scum either. However, I have seen Mom have some really bad reads. So it's not totally out of the question for me that they are Town still.

I don't like RLotus' entrance today. I had RLotus as solid Town. I am beginning to waver on that a bit. Out of VPB and Datisi, VPB feels far more likely to strike Scum to me. So the overconfidence on Datisi does not look good.

I would say one of {Green Crayons, maxwell} also contains Scum. But that one is harder to figure out.

Dunn is always Town. Dunn should literally never get executed here. DGB I would move up as solid Town.

[Andresvmb]

Look here's my thinking. Basically, one of {VPB, Datisi} is practically guaranteed Scum. We have one more mis-execution. VPB is very likely to be execution bait if he's Town, since everything he's pushed for has been dead wrong. And given the arguments VPB has put forth, I put decent odds that it's just Scum. So that's what we should do.

I would rather we actually yeet scum today.

I would also rather you and I don't get into a pissing contest again today. Me being wrong is like 60% of my town performances, but I am willing to not be out in front today given I was wrong yesterday. Never been afraid of humble pie in this game.

Unfortunately it doesn't matter. You need to go. I absolutely do not trust you at all, and you've tried to side-line me repeatedly even though I have been spot on about these miserable executions two days in a row now.

[Andresvmb]

You were on the midway wagon....

You are not fucking serious.

[Andresvmb]

Dunn is always Town. Dunn should literally never get executed here. DGB I would move up as solid Town.

I still don't understand these too outside you thinking I have to be scum.

If I flip town, does that change your perspective on those slots?

No. Dunn is literally always Town here. The likelihood that DGB is Scum is quite low at this point actually.

[Andresvmb]

I don't like RLotus' entrance today. I had RLotus as solid Town. I am beginning to waver on that a bit. Out of VPB and Datisi, VPB feels far more likely to strike Scum to me. So the overconfidence on Datisi does not look good.

I think you've got it backwards my friend

No I really don't think so.

[Andresvmb]

This is the particular bit I was rereading and freaking out that I have been getting taken for a ride.

Ah now this comes up? I thought Datisi was your lockTown. What happened?

[Andresvmb]

This is the particular bit I was rereading and freaking out that I have been getting taken for a ride.

Ah now this comes up? I thought Datisi was your lockTown. What happened?

Midway flipped town

You pushed that execution really hard. Or you forget that?

[Andresvmb]

Andres, why is midway town?

This is Scum. I'm sorry. Nobody is going to convince me otherwise.

[Andresvmb]

This is the particular bit I was rereading and freaking out that I have been getting taken for a ride.

Ah now this comes up? I thought Datisi was your lockTown. What happened?

Midway flipped town

You pushed that execution really hard. Or you forget that?

Did I say I did not? I'm not going to not follow my instincts just because I might be wrong.

I mean, you're wrong about me and if I have to go today, you'll see that. Would that make you feel bad about yeeting me? I doubt it.

It has nothing to do with feelings. You have consistently pushed Town to the side, made bad arguments, and helped execute Town. You voted for RTP, only to backtrack after it became obvious, you diminished Cookie Monster's claim, you voted for Italiano, and you railroaded midway. Outside of the horrific arguments you made against me yesterday, there is simply no universe where I ever trust you this game.

[Andresvmb]

Actually, Andre would make sense as a Datisi partner given his current behavior, but he seemed really damn town yesterday, so I dunno.

You are not this bad.

[Andresvmb]

Andres, were you with me in that game where I had that multiday fight with Taylor and I was pushed by scum as miselim bait after that?

I don't recall, but it does not matter. The way the game has developed means that you need to be executed. I am not going to get into some long-winded argument about it anymore.

[Andresvmb]

Why should you be eliminated as possible partners with Datisi?

I am so obviously Town at this point it's frankly horrifying to me that you would, pre-flip, slot me as a potential Scum with the player that you are voting.

[Andresvmb]

Who, btw, is far more likely to be Town than the other player in the obvious pairing that contains Scum.

[Andresvmb]

@DGB, @Green Crayons if you are Town, I really do expect that you'll pay some attention to what I am saying.

[Andresvmb]

You were on the midway wagon....

You are not fucking serious.

Like this is the Scummiest retort to an argument I have ever seen. No consideration at all for the many hours I spent trying to derail that wagon, defending midway who was not making it easy with some bad logic. Going in detail through why I thought the game state pointed to midway Town, and that we should listen to RTP. But no, because I voted there out of exasperation, my points are diminished? Nah, I don't have the patience clearly to withstand obvious bullshit. Like enough is enough already.

[Andresvmb]

Look, I get it from your perspective. I don't quite agree with some of your characterizations of my play, but I'd be suspicious in your shoes. I really thought midway had to be the on-wagon scum, and I was totally going to rub your face in it today. Shoe is on the other foot now.

I am not trying to rub anything in your face. I don't believe you are Town. It's pretty simple.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah so am I, yet you said I'm potential scum for not agreeing with your tunnel on VPB. Whom, btw, there is absolutely no shot you pair me with VPB as scumpartners after that dogfight on day 1.

Pairing you with Datisi is a far more rational thing to consider.

Tunnel? Are you for real?

How can you possibly conclude that VPB is Town. Out of Datisi/VPB, what makes you so sure you are on the right side of it?

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:

I am really done trying to solve this game. I'll hammer whichever one of VPB/Datisi gets to E-1. I have made myself clear this game. I could easily be wrong. But I am honestly so annoyed that neither one of them was willing to even consider that the other player was pocketing them.