Mini 1368 (Game Over)

[Cheery Dog]

Let's get this thing started.

VOTE: basketball for a claim. I say we get 1-2 since this is a fairly small game, then VTNL.

While I agree that come claims may be in order at some stage during the game, I don't think we want them straight off the bat at random, we should at least wait until we find someone scummy enough to need to force a claim out of them, picking someone at random would just be as bad as quicklynching someone completely at random.
If it were an open game I could see some claims right at the start possibly working in town's favour, but not very likely even there. We should at least go a few pages in before we have anyone claim.

[Cheery Dog]

But every circle has exactly the same angles as every other circle, and therefore triangles have more interesting angles since they are capable of changing between triangles.

Since you rather unchanging stuff, and relating that into the game of mafia and which side would like that the most, I'll place a temporary very weak scum read on you.

VOTE: basketballstar24

[Cheery Dog]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Cheery Dog

Why place a vote on someone for convoluted reasoning if you think your scum read on them is going to be temporary?

It's RVS, any read gained at this stage is temporary, I have no idea if it's going to move into a full scum read or change into a town read. It being a

very weak

read means that I don't trust it. I'm sorry if me explaining the full level of a read thus far as confused you.

unvote

Vote: Hellhound1

Others haven't been voted for yet, why Cheery Dog over them?

hell hound
Cheery dog

Hope that clears it up for you

because our names are polar opposites?

[Cheery Dog]

It's RVS, any read gained at this stage is temporary, I have no idea if it's going to move into a full scum read or change into a town read. It being a very weak read means that I don't trust it. I'm sorry if me explaining the full level of a read thus far as confused you.

How do you see his preference for circles over triangles to be related to his alignment enough to be translated into any level of a read? Why did you avoid participating in RVS in your first post of the game?

My first post didn't need a vote, The only post that struck me as needing anything done was FUT's post, which from reading his posts elsewhere on the site (ongoings) told me was because he wasn't used this site's style of play. I didn't feel this was worthy a vote.

Basketballstar's reasoning of the preference for circles just confused me as there is no real angle in a circle, since there is only the one line. To put the analogy in complicatedness; he must be wanting all of us connected and be attacking each other while getting nowhere. If it were a triangle, there would most likely be three sides attacking each other for the advantage.
I believe that as town, being laid out as a triangle formation will serve us better.

[Cheery Dog]

Well we have nothing so far, so what else am I meant to be working with?

[Cheery Dog]

So we have shape speculation and dogs vs dogs so far...
From cheerys analysis, this must mean triangle123 is town and pieceofpecan3.14 is scum

Why does my analysis mean that pieceofpcanpie is scum? I haven't said anything about him.

All that pieceofpecanpie has done is claim miller, and as far as I see, doing that would most likely be something only a miller would do, thus rendering him in fact town. If you're working on the shape of a pie, it also means nothing because he's only a piece, which would probably be cone-shaped, which fits into my analogy as being a miller.

[Cheery Dog]

The information gained from pi tells us the circumference and area of a circle, these are capable of changing between circles and therefore the information gathered still doesn't fit into my analysis of shapes and how the angles of them relate to the game of mafia.

[Cheery Dog]

All that pieceofpecanpie has done is claim miller, and as far as I see, doing that would most likely be something only a miller would do, thus rendering him in fact town.

I've fakeclaimed miller as scum.

Why didn't you answer my questions from Post 25.

How do you have questions in someone elses post? and what questions haven't I answered from that post?

[Cheery Dog]

As many people have said, how could you scum read from an RVS vote that was reasonable? Because you liked triangles better? I could go into a rant of how circles are better than triangles but this is not the place to do it, as you should not scum read from this little RVS vote. Just a summary.

So from the quote (bottom), please explain how the circle is a line. It's a 360 degree arc. There is no part you can cut from and transform it into a line. [sarc]And OMG, your analysis is so good that we all believe you now.[/sarc]

Curved lines are still lines, I never said it was a straight line.
If I were to draw half a shape and then lift my pencil off the paper, a circle would be much harder to continue drawing perfectly (unless it's via trace around a round object, but that's a boring way for drawing shapes even if it does mean it's more perfect), a triangle would be easy to get back to since it can be made of 3 lines. This means that the best circle would be made with one continuous line whereas all the shapes that do use straight lines (and have corners) can be made with taking a pencil off the paper.

Reads are developed from whatever information we have available, in your case, my read has come from you preferring the angles of a circle over a triangle, while I believe a circle to not have any exact angles because it has no corners. This is therefore a factual error and I consider those scummy.

[Cheery Dog]

When someone else is willing to produce content other than talking about my current scumread of basketballstar, I'll be happy to change topics, but while people are still asking for information about it, I will continue to talk about it, I'm not one to just ignore a question that has been supplied to me.

[Cheery Dog]

CD, we now have three pages of content to work with. Do you have any reads that don't derive from geometric psychology?

There's slight scum tingles from pappums rat, FUT and Kublai Khan. Basketballstar24 still has the very weak scumread and no longer fully based on geometric psychology, but it's yet to increase in it's intensity.
and town vibes from you (which have nothing to do with your name), Paschendale, Idiotking and pieceofpecanpie.

[Cheery Dog]

1. I don't like Cheery Dog's post where he says that pecanpies claim is likely only something a miller would do, because scum would definitely do it too, an easy way to get past cops...

If you're going to paraphase, at least do it accurately, if you notice it's "

most

likely be something only a miller would do", this does not imply that I believe only miller are capable of doing it, I just believe doing it at the start makes most sense for a miller. If pecanpie shows enough of what I believe is scummy behaviour then I will still be pressing on his lynch.

Why doesnt this guy have more votes? Seriously? He is making a huge mountain out of a molehill in accusing him of a "factual error" due to some fucked up shit about shapes. He is clearly grasping for straws.

...There's slight scum tingles from pappums rat...

LOLOMGUS and why dont you explain your scumreads (or townreads for that matter)?

They're all reads from people's attitude now. You're going over the top in your labelling me of scum, and the only reason why this is OMGUS is that you're exhibiting the same gasping for straws you're attacking me with, I am not currently wanting anyone to sheep me, nor have been from the entire time since I posted, in fact if anyone did I would be accusing them of being scum (pity they weren't that easy to find).
My reasoning for FUT is pretty much the same stuff pieceofpecanpie just brought up.
KK is there because I haven't liked his posts thus far (he is probably the weakest of all my current scumreads as I think I just don't like that playstyle)
and I still have BBS24 there because of his use of sarcasm in his second post, which hit me on the wrong foot.
Pecanpie's town read is mostly based that I believe him on current evidence that he would in fact be a miller. The other 3 I have read as genuine.

Melmond, what do you think of Cheery Dog and his "circles vs triangles" argument?

I think it's pretty fucked up. At first I thought he was just messing around, but he just keeps on with this geometry crap... Even though he said he would stop if there was other content. And there's plenty of other stuff to talk about now.

If there's a questions addressed to me, I will answer them. Also you're failing at paraphasing again. The post which I said that I would be stopping if there was other content was after my last mention. It seems by saying this you in fact want me to continue, welcome to my scumread pile. (though you were almost in it before for toying with my reasoning, but I decided that was actually null).
VOTE: melmond As for the rest of your post, see my above read definitions.

[Cheery Dog]

Which idiot would think that a regular RVS vote would be considered scum? My preference is circles over triangle. Anyway, we shouldn't be concentrated on this geometry fight and just move on to finding scum.

The way in which you random vote can be signs of alignment, while reasons given in RVS are subjective, there will still be some minor influences creeping in from your role.

and I still have BBS24 there because of his use of sarcasm in his second post, which hit me on the wrong foot.

Sarcasm totally means I'm mafia, doesn't it?

Sarcasm on it's own doesn't give a definite read, however how it is done can be productive towards getting the read, much like how any other content is written.

[Cheery Dog]

He says FUT is suspicious for the same reasoning pecanpie gave, but if I understood correctly, pecanpie's argument was essentially that FUT is attempting to defend his scumbuddy CD. How can he agree with this exact reasoning? His scum read on BBS24 is also odd because he says it's for his use of sarcasm, but all BBS24 said was "[sarc]OMG your analysis is so good[/sarc]". CD, why do you think this is something scum would do? Specifically, what about "how it was done" seems particularly scummy?

His town reads also feel somewhat fabricated. The only explanation he gave for his town reads on Paschendale and Idiotking were that they "feel genuine", which by itself isn't necessarily horrible reasoning for a town read on page 4. But what strikes me is that, for instance, Paschendale only has 3 posts that are null at best.

I believe FUT may be buddying, it's just it happens to be against a town member and not someone on the scumteam. "Pretty much the same" does not mean exactly the same.

Scum would do it because they thought it would make them look good, the same reason why town would do it, that sarcasm seem to me to be from coming from the scum perspective, mainly because it was used as a defensive measure. I feel it was trying to hard to get pressure lifted from what was a weak vote.

Paschendale is genuine because he has told it like it is, while it's not much to go on at the moment, I felt as if the heart was in the right place on reading them.

[Cheery Dog]

I think it because that's how feelings work, they are thought, they don't come from my foot. (you can say gut if you like, but gut contrary to it's name, is still thoughts from the brain.

[Cheery Dog]

You devote an awful lot of time on needless waffling.

I do that everywhere, and when I do it it's usually because I'm unsure of the merit in what I'm saying.

Also I feel I need to point out what is obvious, how things are read differs between people, I'm not going to get the exact same reads as you.

[Cheery Dog]

I thought the fact that my original read was listed temporary was obvious enough that they it was still forming and the weird tangents are what I think, that's how they got to be there. :S How am I meant to post what I think by not posting what I think?

All reads evolve over time, otherwise we would be at gameover page 1. I have some minor ones currently and because I was asked if I had them, I shared them.

I may as well share my current thoughts on my 3 completely null reads at the moment as well.

Nobody Special - all his posts currently mean nothing to me.
Lupo & hellhound1 both went wtf at my opening vote and explantions, meaning I wasn't able to get any good reactions out of them, thus they stayed null. Moving on from looking at that, they've both moved into the town group.


Anyway I feel I have enough reactions from that reaction testing to safely remove my thoughts out of weird calls and continue on in a normal fashion.
I had to continue it on through multiple posts to get clear reactions out of everyone, as I don't see the point of a reaction test for everyone if it's just called out as such after a few reactions.

[Cheery Dog]

Are those the total of your reads from this "reaction test"?

We're still in early phases of the game, I can't generate 100% accurate reads from 5 pages, so yes they are currently all they are at the moment. I prefer to not have anyone sitting in the null category, even if it means my reads may need to change completely.
My read on you wasn't actually from the reaction test either as your basic response was also 'wtf'.

@CD I'd have to agree with pecanpie here, you've posted a load of filler. Will you elaborate more on your reads then?

They're be elaborated more when/if I'm able to cement them into place, seeing as all but Triangle's townread are still weak to very weak I'm not going to

CD, to clarify, are you saying your initial posts about geometry were insincere and only for the purpose of reaction-testing?

Do you believe I really could have generated a true read from somebodies opening post? Well no you don't because you've been questioning me on it.
Do I believe I can generate a read from a random vote? no I don't, however I wanted to if they were in fact scum to be able to brag about it in endgame. This was probably a stupid idea, but I felt that the RVS stage was going too slowly with only one vote actually cast on anyone for a reason relating to the game, and that was an OMGUS vote, so I decided to draw attention to myself to get people into the game proper. (seriously 10 hours and over 15 votes is too long for completely random votes). This was the only way I saw at the time of generating discussion.

I would have pointed it out that it was a reaction test earlier, but up until that point I felt I could still manage to get some better reads out of a few of the people. I realise now I let it go out of hand, I probably won't be using such a drastic reaction test next time I want to move us out of RVS.

@People wanting me to claim, I'm not going to do it straight out at the moment as I feel some of you are too eager. However I will give you a clue in riddle form. (though you're probably not wanting this, I don't care, I refuse to outright claim when none of you have a useful case against me)

Today I have nothing but my vote.
Tonight I will be sleeping without anything to do.
Tomorrow I will also have nothing but my vote.
The day after something exciting may happen.

[Cheery Dog]

Seems a little too safe to me. Only giving reads on Cheery Dog and FUT is bullshit, there has been enough going on to develop other reads and singling out only the two who have the most pressure makes me cringe.

Are you going to be giving reads on anyone else? The only two reads you've given any hint at are that you think I'm scummy and that #62 from pecanpie was good and now a cringe at hellhound, I don't see how you have a right to be picking on someone else's reads. When the question asked is only who to they think is scum, why should they need multiple scumreads?
Do you have any other scumreads at this stage?

Yeah, if it was a reaction test, it would probably be the worst one ever.

What because I caught you out with it?

Seriously, you went on about it for 4 pages, and you don't stop until you get to L-1...
And if it was to get discussion going, you've completely failed. Because most of the discussion is about your stupid ass going on about geometry.
I really don't know what to do right now, I have a slight feeling you might be town, just the village idiot, but this shit you've been posting is seriously bad for town, so it could go either way...

I get the feeling you're wanting me to go back to talking about nonsense, you're getting afraid you won't get the mislynch you want.
I've been able to get reads from almost everyone from the discussion generated, so it has done what I intended. (though getting put to L-1 wasn't part of the plan, it's just an annoying side effect of going overboard).

and no I will not do a fullclaim, this is a scum driven wagon.

[Cheery Dog]

I really do not believe CD's geometric posts were all merely a big reaction test, and the reads he's posted as a result of it do not seem particularly impressive. So, CD, if this is a reaction test, where did you get the idea to do it? What did you read that made you think to try it?

the idea came from an ongoing game, can't talk about it.

I started it on the spur of the moment, and then I continued it on because I didn't like the idea of breaking it straight after I got a town reaction from you - I wanted to be able to find some possible scum with it.

[Cheery Dog]

I hate people who just go with the flow.

Is going with the flow a town or a scum mindset?

[Cheery Dog]

Secondly, i was the first person to post my unhappiness at Nobody Special, and now he's being bandwagoned, so your theory falls flat on its face there.

Hmmm... lets look two posts above you asking if anybody else was unhappy with the content from NS.

Nobody Special - all his posts currently mean nothing to me.

Yeah, you weren't the first person to post unhappiness at lack of content from NS. I may not have worded it as "I am unhappy with lack of content from NS", but it's still the same thing.

[Cheery Dog]

CD, what are your thoughts on Hellhound?

He's gone back in null territory, after not advancing very far out of it.
The only thing he's brought to the table that hadn't been mentioned by anybody else is the accusation that you were sheeping pappums rat. Which I don't see having merit to it because I can see the exact same thing you both have said.

@hellhound, does this make me sheeping them as well?

[Cheery Dog]

#19

Cheery

, can you elaborate on what you means here? I didn't quite follow. What did BBstar say/do that came off as weakly scummy, and why would the mafia benefit from this (in reference to the "side that would like that the most")?

I thought I had mentioned this in other posts, I guess not, because mafia are more likely to favour "

unchanging stuff

" - in such as that if town has wrong reads, the mafia would like to keep them there and also mafia would like information to be kept to a minimum.

I think Melmond's fos stemmed from post 30 and not post 9

[Cheery Dog]

I have to say, I find it a bit scummy when someone produces

four

scumreads on Day One. So, you'd be my top scumread right about now.[/quote]
If triangle is your top scumread, shouldn't you be voting him? So why are you still voting me?
Why is having multiple scumreads scummy? Not everyone has a tunnelling playstyle.

VOTE: Nobobdy Special.

[Cheery Dog]

VOTE: hellhound1
Looks like the only other person with votes is NS and he really wouldn't be as good of a lynch.

Do you actually agree with why hellhound was chosen to be a viable lynch or just wanting to be on a large wagon?

I was then, I'd rather lynch triangle now.

Is this only because of the multiple scumreads or do you have other reasons you can tell us why this lynch might be good?

[Cheery Dog]

I don't know who is scummier, though, but I'll vote Lupo because I don't want some mislynch here if someone hammers Hellhound cause he's at L-2.

So do you have proof that he would be a mislynch?
I guess there is one way to find out.
UNVOTE: NS, VOTE: Hellhound

Hellhound is now at L-1

[Cheery Dog]

WTF? If basketballstar24 is scummy for knowing that Hellhound1 is a mislynch, WHY WOULD YOU VOTE FOR HELLHOUND1?

(Also, why didn't killerjester pick up on that?)[/quote]
Because I don't think we would be able to get a big enough wagon on basketballstar in what little time we still have of this day. (besides my RVS reaction test and sarcasm callout, I haven't seen anyone else believe he might be scum yet this point and I don't think I have the trust of everyone to be able to lead a wagon at this stage)
Therefore I'm testing the theory via a lynch that is likely to happen anyway.

[Cheery Dog]

Not voting for bbstar makes sense given the deadline, but voting for Hellhound instead does not. CD, can you clarify what you meant by this?

Therefore I'm testing the theory via a lynch that is likely to happen anyway.

My theory is that BBS was using it as a distancing strategy, however I didn't vote him because I also thought he might have meant something else via saying mislynch, and with no completed games on the site from him I saw that it could have been a misuse of wording.
I also never mentioned this before because I needed to see how he would respond and didn't want to be giving ideas of excuses.

My hellhound vote is also partially because he disappeared once he started getting pressure.

It's a mislynch because some person might not realize it's L-1 and vote for Hellhound, and if he is PR it's town's loss. That's my reasoning of a mislynch. I'm not saying I believe Hellhound is either town or PR, assuming that he is, and some idiot hammers him before he realizes Hellhound's at L-1, then town loses a PR.

So you're never going place someone up to L-1?

So you're willing to lynch someone in order to "prove" that someone else knew it would be a mislynch?

No, to prove it's not a mislynch and attempting to call a mislynch on someone else that you think has been scummy is association signs.
[/quote]

If Hellhound doesn't return in some reasonably expedient fashion, I'm moving my vote to Lupo.

Why? Do you always allow your targets to walk free if they start lurking?

[Cheery Dog]

Any reason why I shouldn't be confirmed town at this stage pappums?

Confirmed town means that we won't be lynching you at all, since we are in fact going to be lynching you later, you are NOT confirmed town.
Though you are given as town until day 3 or later depending on how well our scumhunting has gone, this is not the same as confirmed, it just means you will be getting a free ride up until that time.

I don't very much care what looks good and what doesn't, I just want it to

look

truthful.

I reiterated my miller claim to strengthen the sincerity of what little advice I had to give to town, just in case I were targeted in the coming night.

Or let me put it this way, if pappums or someone else wants to muddy the waters it better be with something better than "Lol, you could be lying".

Until then, I'm a town miller mofo, my win condition is for all town threats to be eliminated, and I'll continue playing to that condition.

To just look truthful? I'm not going to be judging a book by it's cover thankyou.

FoS : Pieceofpecanpie

[Cheery Dog]

Any reason why I shouldn't be confirmed town at this stage pappums?

Confirmed town means that we won't be lynching you at all, since we are in fact going to be lynching you later, you are NOT confirmed town.
Though you are given as town until day 3 or later depending on how well our scumhunting has gone, this is not the same as confirmed, it just means you will be getting a free ride up until that time.

Are you a moron?

Free ride? Isn't that what you're (attempting) to get?

I'm not going for any free ride. I'm trying to win a game for town, if it's in the interests of town that I die today, tomorrow or whenever so be it.

How am I having a free ride when I've already been placed onto L-1?
It may have become a free ride since all those votes have cleared, but getting to that stage doesn't mean a free ride.

But before I get called out for AtE, let me reiterate what I'm saying once again

1. I

AM

town
2. I am a town

miller

3. Miller's investigate as scum
4. If scum don't eliminate me at night then the fact that my town role

investigates

as scum could provide WIFOM fodder for the

real

scum
5. To negate this from happening I say "keep me around for as long as I'm useful and then I should be lynched before any LYLO scenario"
OR (an alternative, which I don't consider favourable)
6. "keep me around because you're all comfortable with the fact that I'm town, despite any investigation on me coming back as scum"
7. Considering me as confirmed town makes one less person to investigate, eliminate from suspicion etc. etc. which makes for a smaller pool for scum to hide in.
8. This

IS NOT

a trap, trick or devious plot of mine. This is my best attempt to help town win.

1/2. We only have your claim that this is true.
3. This is correct.
4. Unless you are the

real scum

5/6. I'm currently not comfortable in the knowledge you are town, therefore I will be lynching you if I'm around when it gets close to LYLO.
7. You don't need investigated because you will be lynched if still alive later.
8. We only have your assurance of that.

I don't very much care what looks good and what doesn't, I just want it to

look

truthful.

I reiterated my miller claim to strengthen the sincerity of what little advice I had to give to town, just in case I were targeted in the coming night.

Or let me put it this way, if pappums or someone else wants to muddy the waters it better be with something better than "Lol, you could be lying".

Until then, I'm a town miller mofo, my win condition is for all town threats to be eliminated, and I'll continue playing to that condition.

To just look truthful? I'm not going to be judging a book by it's cover thankyou.

FoS : Pieceofpecanpie

Then what are you judging me on? What is the merit of that FoS?

"Not judging a book by it's cover", what does that even mean in this case? Catchy though it is, clanging and bunch of pots together in order to draw attention to me does not make me suspicious.

If you are saying my miller claim is a "cover" and you are yet to see my book, perhaps you would like to provide some analysis of my other posts? You know, the ones that don't involve talk about miller claims. There's plenty of them to draw upon. From the manner in which you've made your suspicion on me I'm assuming you're drawing upon evidence outside of my miller claim, which makes me look scummy. Would you mind telling me where that is?

Let me tell you how it is my scummy chum. That chainsaw FoS you pulled on me is the most baseless opportunistic bullshit I have seen so far in this game.

The credibility of your vague PR claim and your early-game waffling palmed off as "reaction testing" is hanging by a thread.

So tell me, why shouldn't I be suspicious of you?

Look at the word I bolded in your post, and then look at what I just posted. (this also goes with your counter-attack on melmond)
Your miller claim has nothing to do with that FoS, there have also been other scummy posts you've made which I had decided to ignore because of your miller claim, but right now you're rolling in the stuff. (I shall go and fetch them for you)
I need the real deal truth and not some lookalike truth.

You have every right to be suspicious of me, unless you are scum and know that I'm not on your team.

[Cheery Dog]

[...]I don't like Hellhound's ISO. Looking at his posts, it's hard to see much actual content coming out from him.

He's asking a lot of questions of other players, which is fine, but there's not really any follow-up and he's not substantiating any opinions from whatever information he's gained from them.

There are also a couple instances of IIoA (information instead of analysis), such as his post addressing pecanpie's miller claim from a theoretical point of view or the one calling out lurkers, which, combined with the way he cautiously words weak scum reads on the top two wagons and nothing else, makes him very scummy.

The part I've underlined is what rings most true to me.

This feels similar to how I can mistakenly play scum - ie. too passively - where content is posted, but it's really just to boost my appearance rate. Then when someone makes a case on me it's easy to become overtly defensive.

This was the first non-miller-talk-post that alerted me to you, you're saying that's how you play as scum - lets so see what follow up you've made so far on questions you've asked...oh right none.
Well one if you count answering a question that was the same as one you asked in return)

@killerjester Given your back and forth with Lupo - referring to posts #155, #156, #158 and #159 - what do you think of Lupo's #162?

@Paschendale I haven't forgotten your question. Will respond soon.

A question that is unnecessary given where it had happened. On the next page, this question may have had some merit, but since it's 2 posts after the post you're asking about, killerjester would probably have done this without any prompting.

Delaying the response to the one question you've asked which is the only possible follow-up point you've made.

I don't know who is scummier, though, but I'll vote Lupo because I don't want some mislynch here if someone hammers Hellhound cause he's at L-2.

Wut?

Clearly if I wait for Hellhound the end will end without me voting for anyone.

Wut?

Doh

Wut?

Just saying "Wut?" doesn't help us at all.

Why bring up your miller claim again?

I don't very much care what looks good and what doesn't, I just want it to look truthful.

I reiterated my miller claim to strengthen the sincerity of what little advice I had to give to town, just in case I were targeted in the coming night.

Or let me put it this way, if pappums or someone else wants to muddy the waters it better be with something better than "Lol, you could be lying".

Until then, I'm a town miller mofo, my win condition is for all town threats to be eliminated, and I'll continue playing to that condition.

and also this post which made me give out the FoS.
As I stated before, you just want posts to look truthful? So you don't necessary want them to actually be true?
and also the "until then", so what are you now I've muddied your waters?

[Cheery Dog]

Muddied my waters?

Lawl, I don't see your case. I see pathetic scum chainsawing.

The onus is on you to prove I have something to defend, currently your case still reads as "Lol, you could be lying".

If you want to look at it that way fine, I don't really mind as if you're still alive and we're getting close to LYLO, you'll be getting lynched.

Hellhound is still the target today.

[Cheery Dog]

and what I'm seeing from you is that you will continue to hide behind your miller claim.

Your miller claim is the only reason why I've even considered you as possible town.

There's been quite a bit of information without analysis from your part.

[Cheery Dog]

@Cheery Dog: we aren't lynching pieceofpecanpiece today, so I dontknow why you're wasting valuable pre-deadline time talk to and about him.

Tell (or link) me the reason that you're voting Hellhound1.

I'm discussing it because hellhound hasn't shown up yet and I need something to discuss while waiting for either him to show up or someone to hammer. (or both)
May as well make some progress on day 2 talks, even though there is a chance one of us could be dead tomorrow.

I've voting hellhound because of
1. That he has only talked about the having read scum on the two highest pressured players (myself and FUT). (agreeing with the early case put on him)
2. He hasn't brought anything logical into the game (mentioned in #146)
3. I think there is distancing on him from BBS. (as why I voted in @223/my theory mentioned in #229 and explained in #242)
4. The fact he went inactive after the pressure was put to him. (also #242)

To clear 3 up some more (I thought someone had asked about that, but I can't find who), BBS is distancing himself from the lynch while still finding HH to be scummy, the post of BBS's in question said to me "save my buddy". I believe it was a scumslip and the "mislynch" in question was that he didn't want to lynch someone he knew to be on his team, thus it would be a mislynch from scum's point of view. Though I can also see Lupo being the buddy in question to be saved.
This means that BBS is actually my biggest scumread still.

[Cheery Dog]

I've

never

seen scum use the term mislynch to describe their scumbuddies being lynched. Not even in QTs.

CD, why are you not voting your biggest scumread?

There's always new ways for doing stuff. (though it's quite possible I'm being paranoid to the extreme)

I'm not voting him because we were close to deadline, and I'd like to see a lynch go through, even though the deadline is now suspended, the hellhound slot still requires the pressure I'm giving it. BBS can wait until tomorrow.

[Cheery Dog]

Wait, maybe I'm not understanding you correctly, but if BBS and Hellhound are buddies, why would he be distancing himself from the lynch? That's a term to describe scum trying to see uninvolved in a mislynch in order to get town cred. I really don't see why scum would use "mislynch" like that. Your explanation seems contrived.

He's supporting it while not actually being on it, maybe I'm using the wrong terms or me just being overly paranoid, but that's just how I'm seeing it at the moment.

[Cheery Dog]

-_-

So we wait for a replacement.

@CheeryDog, How many times do I have to tell you my reasons?

You can say them however many times you like, they're not going to stop me from being paranoid.

For reads:
leaning scum: basketballstar24> pieceofpecanpie>cheery dog
null: paschendale, lupo, Kublai Khan, nobody special
leaning town: triangle123,Idiot King,killerjester, pappums rat
*snips*
I think I'd prefer a bbstar lynch to a hellhound lynch for today. What does everyone else think?

Where doe hellhound (or now ChannelDelibird) sit in your reads?

2. We cannot judge a replacement by the last user that had his/her role.

Why not? it's still the same role. Being replaced doesn't delete all your posts, they're still there and unless you're playing purposefully against your win condition, they are still evidence. While we can't ask a replacement what they were thinking on a post from a slot prior to them coming into the game because they can only guess at much as we have. What has been said has still be said.

[Cheery Dog]

top scum. thats who I'm voting, though I'd be fine with a bbstar lynch too though.

You just never placed it on your list of reads, also

I think I'd prefer a bbstar lynch to a hellhound lynch for today. What does everyone else think?

So hellhound is your top scum, but you're fine with a bbstar lynch which would be your preferred option?
Sorry if I'm a little confused here.

[Cheery Dog]

He sits at the top of the scum pile, But I'd prefer a bbstar lynch. How many votes does bbstar have though? ZERO! How many days? LESS THAN FOUR. So I was hoping to get other peoples input! WE WOULD NEED 6 ADDITIONAL VOTES.

got it?

The point is why is he had the top of the scumpile when you would actually rather lynch someone else? Your preferred lynch should be on top of your pile, even if you're not voting them.
BBS is currently ontop of my scumpile, with hellhound/CBD slot second from the top.
(you have my vote on bbs if there is enough interest in wagoning him)

[Cheery Dog]

Have you got any thoughts you want us to regard prior to your lynch and tomorrow?

[Cheery Dog]

EBWOP: prior to your lynch reveal.

[Cheery Dog]

VOTE: Basketballstar24

While my theory may have been wrong about you being scum with hellhound, it doesn't prove that you're still not scum yourself.

[Cheery Dog]

Hmmm, diving straight into wagons and no comment on the lack of nightkill?

No comment on the Hellhound flip either? In regards to this, a Lupo wagon makes no sense since a lot of his scumminess was from associative tells with Hellhound.

A lack of nightkill means we have a lack of information from the dead to go back read, what would you like us to have commented. Commenting on lack of nightkills generally accidentally slips someone's role, so why should we be worried about not having comments?

I wasn't aware the Lupo case was associative tells, but I might have to go back through those.

Hellhound flip just means we might have to waste a lynch on you.

[Cheery Dog]

5 or 6 at most. You? 10.

5/6 sounds more extremely null than it should be if you find Lupo towny.

[Cheery Dog]

You're not lynched yet as there is no purpose to ending this day this early without possibly being able to find your buddies or give you the chance to prove you're not scum.

There is no productive purpose to quicklynching someone less than 2 days into a new Day.

I personally need to actually update some of my reads and I can't do that if we lynch someone hereandnow.

[Cheery Dog]

so reads (in alphabetical order)
Basketballstar24: Scum. The whole hellhound mislynch thing and threat to happen after the replacement had been found. Also his lastest two posts look like someone who has been busted. Also bringing jesters - which we know can't exist in normals - back into the discussion.
IdiotKing: Leaning Scum. Reasons for wanting hellhound lynched were "I hate people that go with the flow."
Killerjester: Null. Predecessor buddying up to town in trouble (me), though I'm seeing killerjester himself as leaning town.
Kublai Klan: Leaning Town.
Lupo: Leaning Town.
Melmond: Leaning Scum. I don't trust people who have their top scum as someone they don't want to be voting for: possible bbstar buddying.
Nobody Special: Leaning Scum. Lurking at the start of Day 1, Active lurking at the end of Day 1, didn't really give us much input.
Pappums rat: Leaning Town.
Paschendale: Leaning Town.
Pieceofpecanpie: Leaning Town. I can actually see town motivation behind this confirmed town claims now, yesterday i was reading them as they were and not why they were there.
Triangle123: Town.

[Cheery Dog]

or lack of night action into account.

wait what.
I assumed there were at least two night actions last night on the same person, are you telling me scum no-killed?

[Cheery Dog]

Uh...Hmm. You are "scum hunting" by placing a vote for "pressure" on player who has pretty much handled the most pressure he can get. I mean he's already claimed and everything. What exactly were you pressuring for?

Until I get an answer, my votes going back on
VOTE: NS

Isn't voting until you get an answer the same thing as placing a vote for pressure?

[Cheery Dog]

Wow, NS. You seriously vote me for pressure?

Fine, if you guys say my reads are not useful I will not do scum reads. However, for that, NS is scummy for just joining my wagon.

Is NS at L-1?

Scum reads are only useful if you give them out, you gave us 5 people you had reads on 4 of which were null/nulltown and I don't even know what you actually thought of pappums rat seeing as you gave 3 reasons.

[Cheery Dog]

[quote="In post 441, basketballstar24"
So I can't say what I think the players are so far?[/quote]
You can say what you think players are, it's just kind of pointless if you you've only given 5 out of the 12 players your opinion. (or 6 now because you called NS scummy)

[Cheery Dog]

@CheeryDog, I said I would do that later. But I kind of gave up because you guys said my reads sucked

When/where?
We made have ignored them to a certain extent, but that doesn't mean they suck.

[Cheery Dog]

Just because we ignored it doesn't mean we said they sucked.

Anyway, if I've counted correctly, we have less than 5 days until deadline (though it might be different since we haven't had a pappums rat replacement join us yet)

[Cheery Dog]

And yes I'm a little kid.

That does explain some of your actions to be more town and why you had that outburst where you claimed.
I guess I better move my vote onto the next of my list of scummiest for now then.

UNVOTE: bbstar
VOTE: Nobody Special

[Cheery Dog]

This post is to prove that I don't

only

show up when I'm mentioned.

So there.

Would you like to actually say anything on topic to get us further into deciding who we are going to lynch today?

though I'm fairly certain it's going to be you, but you should at least attempt to stop us, right?

[Cheery Dog]

His [Lupo's] actual content is pretty lackluster

...

But if NS flips scum, then Lupo is essentially cleared. Why waste today's lynch on Lupo when

NS looks scummier

and that flip will tell us about Lupo

Why would we want to clear a useless town with lackluster content? If you're going by informational benefits alone, Lupo is the better lynch today.

The fact he said NS looks scummier means that it's not based on informational benefits alone.

If you're going by informational benefits alone, Lupo is the better lynch today.

People not on Lupo's wagon heed this.

I would much rather dead scum than living information.

[Cheery Dog]

CD, you seem to think Lupo is town. How so?

While the switch to NS was bad, I would say it's not indicative of alignment.

At that point in the game, everyone's attention was pretty much on me and my extensive reaction test, so I'm not actually sure how valid that part of the case against Lupo is.
As for the defence of hellhound which didn't exist, there was disagreement posted, and since the hellhound case didn't build up much more than what it was then, I'm also not sure how it indicates Lupo as scum.

Thus I am having trouble seeing why Lupo is scum. He's in my leaning town category because he's being attacked for stuff I don't see which actually confirms him either way, by people I consider may be scum.

[Cheery Dog]

CD, you seem to think Lupo is town. How so?

While the switch to NS was bad, I would say it's not indicative of alignment.

So he should have stuck with you and pushed for your lynch?[/quote]
If he believed me to be scum yes.

As for the defence of hellhound which didn't exist, there was disagreement posted, and since the hellhound case didn't build up much more than what it was then, I'm also not sure how it indicates Lupo as scum.

There was plenty of deliberation on Hellhound, there is no certainty what was and wasn't scum driven, but if we play the old meta game we can assume that at least one scum was on the wagon and one scum off. Lupo's decision to wander off for over a week without making any inroads into why Hellhound wasn't a good lynch target is not something to be regarded as pro town. Along with some other circumstantial evidence it's not hard to consider Lupo as potential scum for hanging off the wagon, or at the very least scummy in his actions.

Yes it is possible to see it that way, however I am not seeing it that way.

Thus I am having trouble seeing why Lupo is scum. He's in my leaning town category because he's being attacked for stuff I don't see which actually confirms him either way, by people I consider may be scum.

Tell me, why is NS scum?

Also, what do you mean Lupo is being attacked for stuff you don't see? Didn't you just begin with

"while the switch to NS was bad..."

? So you see things that are bad, but they don't indicate alignment? What does NS do that indicates his alignment?

Also, you think there are people you consider scum on Lupo's wagon. Have they had any association with NS or is there any information to gain from an NS lynch that would help confirm these people as scum? Is there more opportunity to go after these scummy players if NS flips?

Probably not much either actually, however he has continued to not post useful content (and although he said his own town meta is lurky mclurkson), I don't trust selfmeta and am therefore going by what I believe would be done by scum here.

and his comment with putting Lupo onto L-1, does not sit well with me at all.

That's L-1. Any scum on my wagon, feel free to jump over here and hammer.

As a rule, the town should always, ALWAYS want more information. It's really sad that I should have to explain that.

Information exists everywhere, while we might not be able to get association on people off NS straight away, him flipping scum would still help us on later days. We just have to dig deeper for the information required.

[Cheery Dog]

Who are the scum on the Lupo wagon, aside from NS?

actually i don't know, I forgot that I'd reread some people and had placed them back where I had them near the end of day 1. (pappums rat and pecanpie), if I go back to where I last posted my reads (which I think are still true given my defence of Lupo), my olny suspect on that wagon besides NS is Idiotking, which I'm not even that sure about.

unvote, vote Cheery Dog

, I don't know what I'm doing, ergo I must be scum.
what a pity my role pm says I'm town which means that conclusion is also wrong.

and with my mind completely lost, I guess the best thing would probably be to give this;

Intent to hammer Lupo

blahblahclaimetc.

[Cheery Dog]

Lupo, thoughts on BBS' "hammer"? (I think I asked you this earlier but I didn't see you respond - sorry if you did and I missed it.)

I remembered posting something about the hammer but I can't find it either. Anyways I think it's insane that him posting what he thought was a hammer vote on somebody didn't get him lynched.

If you thought he should have been lynched for that, then why didn't you join his wagon?

[Cheery Dog]

Hmmm, the Lupo counter wagon is scum?

I'm going to start with...

VOTE: Cheery Dog

And I'll go for a bit of a reread and review - especially of Paschendale - and see if that gets me anywhere.

I realised I was probably wrong yesterday when I unvoted. but yes that vote is allowed there if you want.

I just went to see who was actually on the Lupo wagon during day 1 to see if they could be cleared, but seeing as only one of them stayed on the Lupo wagon for day 2 as well, that only points to killerjester being semicleared.

I am therefore of the belief that someone must have been bussing Lupo either then or today. Therefore I will put my other theory of basketballstar's day one vote choice to the test.
VOTE: basketballstar24VOTE:

Pedit: @killerjester: so you're the scumbuddy that continued to bus?

[Cheery Dog]

yes, however I was mostly joking about calling you scum.

[Cheery Dog]

Still reading, but before I fully catch up, I have a question for Cheery Dog:

Did you use your even night ability last night?

I don't feel anything exciting enough has happened that I currently need to reveal this.

[Cheery Dog]

I am sleeping peacefully tonight yes. (well unless I get killed)

I'll reveal what happened later in the day, all I will say now is that the belief I posted in my first post of today is every valid given what this information is.

[Cheery Dog]

Just noticed I missed a slash in my vote tags. (note that my second theory has nothing to do with my role)

VOTE: Basketballstar

[Cheery Dog]

Before I'm asked about the theory, I'll just grab my previous post from day 1 that I'm referencing with it.

To clear 3 up some more (I thought someone had asked about that, but I can't find who), BBS is distancing himself from the lynch while still finding HH to be scummy, the post of BBS's in question said to me "save my buddy". I believe it was a scumslip and the "mislynch" in question was that he didn't want to lynch someone he knew to be on his team, thus it would be a mislynch from scum's point of view.

Though I can also see Lupo being the buddy in question to be saved.

This means that BBS is actually my biggest scumread still.

I had actually forgotten this second theory during yesterday.

[Cheery Dog]

Yes, I realise that, that's what makes it so true and actually me holding information probably isn't going to get anywhere - I'm just no good at keeping my investigations to myself. (fuck I'm going to suck when I actually get a scum pm)

so I'm an even-night cop, I investigated Melmond last night who turned up innocent. (though there is a chance they could be a godfather)
I investigated him because he was the only one who hadn't voted Lupo and he was one of my bigger scumreads.

Also where is this town read you say BBS gave of lupo? there was null after hellhound flipped vig, and then this post according to my 'crtl+F' skills.

Okay, a lynch for Lupo.

I bet he's scum.

[Cheery Dog]

Your information on Melmond is even more reason to select from my lynch pool. There's no way the

entire

Hellhound wagon was town-driven.

Yeah I guess so, based off reads I've had in the past I'd be willing to do either I Am Innocent or idiotking from that wagon, but I probably do need to reread everyone again.

@CheeryDog, That post was just a mere joke.

I actually thought Lupo was scum D1, more scummy that Hellhound, but after Hellhound flipped vig I thought he was null-town.

You said they were about the same when you placed your vote on Lupo, and then were saying you should have placed hellhound onto L-1 after you were questioned about it being a mislynch.
Why did a town flip of someone who you thought was less scummy than someone else make this someone else less scummy?

[Cheery Dog]

If you're town then even if we don't listen too the readsstraight away, we can always refer back to them after you flip.
such as with pasch, was as far as I can tell suspecting killerjester and NS, which could indicate that killerjester is scum or that someone is wanting me to think that killerjester is scum.

[Cheery Dog]

then it's NS, BBS or possibly IAI?

I placed myself into scum shoes to try and work out why that would could the case - yes he would have been easy to get him lynched today because of the chainsaw defence of lupo, however the problem would come when he flips town after a lynch.

but then maybe it was something he said and they thought he was involved in the no night 1 death.
I'm going to stop speculating on his death now.

[Cheery Dog]

Noone is cleared from Paschdale being nightkilled, we're not going to work out why he was killed, but with a case on him, I'm not seeing it making sense via any perspective, unless there is a town redirector who moved someone to targetting Pasch, in which case they would have claimed.

[Cheery Dog]

What an odd post to make, Cheery. Who did you expect to be killed?

Someone who wasn't likely to be lynched the next day, or even me since I had outed via riddle that I had an even-night power.

wait I just pulled out a another non-normal role didn't I, seriously too much of that.

I think I'm trying to work out the motivation behind that NK too much.

[Cheery Dog]

Just remembered a post from yesterday which I think means Lupo & NS aren't likely to be on a team.

You people. You should listen to reason, you know.

unvote

Vote: Lupo

That's L-1. Any scum on my wagon, feel free to jump over here and hammer.

Asking other partners bussing him to bus the partner just seem odd if they were on a team. (but then I guess bussing is odd anyway) But I still don't feel this statement would come from a partner.

[Cheery Dog]

Let's just have a look at this hate push of AtE shall we.

I can see Paschendale's argument about killerjester rehashing what KK said about Lupo (in KK's ISO posts 114 - 136 he argues his case with Lupo, predating killerjester's 206 and going over much of the same material), but something about Paschendale's 378 screams buddying to me. Maybe it's because the whole thing is dedicated to getting killerjester off of Lupo's back, I dunno.

Also,

Vote basketballstar24

I hate, HATE appeals to emotion. If you are actually vanilla town, replace out or stop being useless.

Hmm? I'm not lynched? I thought those votes would bandwagon, so I put this bah post knowing that I would get lynched before I went on again.

What the hell even is this?

That seriously does not seem like much of a push to get him lynched to me, which is what you're telling me you were doing..

Also from the games I just looked from your meta, I failed to find any reference to your hate of AtE. (or actually any posts by you which even mention that abbreviation)
VOTE: Idiotking

and I don't believe I should be going to rely on games over a year out to discover you meta, and therefore I will go with your performance this game.
Which is mostly killerjesters case on you - but I had already pegged you down as scummy for the reasons you were voting hellhound/CDB.

[Cheery Dog]

What? So this is why IK is scummy? I'm confused here.

What do you personally think of IK?

[Cheery Dog]

UNVOTE:

back to basketballscum24 then, and maybe another read through to occur soon.

VOTE: Basketballstar24

[Cheery Dog]

CheeryDog: Have you noticed that after N2, he automatically changed his vote to me, and now since IK claimed doc he automatically changed it to me again? Is there something that he has against me? A grudge? CheeryDog, please explain your hatred towards me. Otherwise, you've been okay. Null-Town.

I don't have hatred of you, I just believe you to be scum.

Day 2 I removed my vote because you had seemed newtown with those posts, however when Lupo flipped scum I went back to why I had a scumread on you at the end of day 1, which was your refusal to vote hellhound, and move onto the safer option of voting a partner, and given the opportunity to switch back to hellhound in case they neared lynch point.

I choose not to investigate you on the chance I was wrong since as a confirmed town I don't think you would be much help

[Cheery Dog]

You didn't want to lynch him, that's what the last bit of my post was referring towards.

and given the opportunity to switch back to hellhound in case they neared lynch point.

[Cheery Dog]

well I guess the BBS wagon isn't going to happening today either then.

UNVOTE: bbs

Your votes have been very bad today. Likely Cop (Cheery), Likely Doc (Idiot) and Me (I know I'm town).

None of us had claimed before pecan's vote, seeing as Idiot got to L-1 before claiming, what makes that vote that bad?

also I'll now be going where I said early from jester's lynchpool that I was willing to lynch, and your claim of that being bad because you know you're town doesn't actually mean anything, lies may exist.

VOTE: I Am Innocent

[Cheery Dog]

None of us had claimed before pecan's vote, seeing as Idiot got to L-1 before claiming, what makes that vote that bad?

If Idiot is town, then there was probably scum on that wagon. Hmmm, who joined that wagon late. NS - 4th vote, Pecan the L-1 vote.

I am town, and who is on my wagon. NS, Pecan....see a pattern here?

NS who says I am not even in his top 2 (Triangle and Idiot are) but votes me. It's called a scum preservation vote (I'll vote the other leading wagon to protect myself)

And you vote me over that scum. Nice.

I have town reads on those two, which is why I'm not voting them.

You do have a point about pecan's not want to be lynched attitude, but it hasn't overuled my town read I have of him after I had rethought through this confirmed town stance.

I do not see NS being scum with Lupo, because of how his vote onto the Lupo wagon was worded.

[Cheery Dog]

I would say that means PoPP is indeed a miller if we have two cops (although they are on different nights)

UNVOTE:

and now I'm going to have to attempt a reread and not base off my voting off my earlier reads.

[Cheery Dog]

I'm happy to move that direction as well, with KK seemiling ignoring Lupo for all of day 2, sounds like a good place to have my vote now.

VOTE: Kublai Klan

[Cheery Dog]

If we believe all the claims, then it's still quite possible triangle is a godfather.
given that I will be willing to switch to CES if KK does take off

[Cheery Dog]

Also, basketballstar is still scum. Why won't anyone believe me?

because you haven't really actually said anything about him?

though if the hellhound wagon was truly all town as it appears to be at the moment, that's even more reason for BBS's day 1 possible busvote as scum given the reason I think it was done.

but then people are believing me that he is still scum either

[Cheery Dog]

That line feels to me as if it were said by a townie who didn't think the other wagon was actually leading to scum, however was voting to save his own skin.
Though it could also work the way you described it.

[Cheery Dog]

Well played whoever did stop the night 1 kill by not counterclaiming. Unless it was a roleblocker that stopped the kill from happening, in which case we should hear who you blocked.

My top suspicions are currently BBS (still) & killerjester.

[Cheery Dog]

Again, I don't think anyone should be called scummy for being someone who seemed scummy. I think they should be given a new clean sheet to work on.

They have the same role, replacing out should not ever clear what you have posted, otherwise practically everyone would replace out when they have been caught as that would help their team by giving them a "clean sheet".

[Cheery Dog]

How are you predicting my results like that?
I have no idea why he would leave me alive either when I've been suspecting him all game.
Just thinking an innocent I've given means nothing.

Nice to know my circles v triangles bullshit was on the right person.

VOTE: basketballstar24

Got to love that we wagoned all the scum during day 2 - though this one probably should have been the day 1 lynch

[Cheery Dog]

There's a guilty.
I don't know about the godfather, but the others are all true.

Still have no idea what happened night 1.

[Cheery Dog]

I would have quoted CES's opening post when I posted, but I was on my DS then which has images disabled, and since the quote button is an image I can't press it to quote.

If BBS had come up innocent I wouldn't have been voting him today.

The only way I don't see us having won is if there was a 4th scum, or a framer, both of which would be cruel.

[Cheery Dog]

You did well to hang us out until day 5, and you must have been doing something right to get a fully town wagon lynch town on day 1, though that probably would have dissolved into nothing had hellhound not disappeared.

I think you could have fooled as a bit better with your other night kill choices. Pasch probably would have been lynched day 3 with the chainsaw defence of lupo and then "bussing" when the NS wagon lost steam.
Night 3 you probably should have killed I Am Innocent risking a doc protect on him, and then me last night and Idiotking would be an easy mislynch today having failed to protect both cops.

though the question of what happened night 1 is still a mystery.

[Cheery Dog]

I think the scum's fail to kill anyone night 1 helped us believe you.
If there was something there, there may have been a difference to how well it worked.

I thought I would have been a fairly obvious night 1 kill since I had soft claimed power, and I had actually assumed someone must have saved me then. (at that stage I was guessing odd-night doc) - which based on the readslists given at the start of day 2 I thought was triangle.

I think NS's roleblocker claim after I suggested that it could have been a roleblocker would have got him lynched even if IAI didn't have a guilty on him - I can't see any scumteam having sent Lupo on the night 1 kill.

[Cheery Dog]

I think this game may have turned out a lot differently if the scum had actually used their powers, I don't know if the gunsmith would have got anywhere (seeing as he never killed the claimed cops anyway), but I would have expected a roleblock on IaI night 3 while they were killing the "doctor".