Mini 1697 - a Re-balanced Game of Mafia - GAME OVER

[duppin]

Hello everyone! I tend to be less active on weekends, so I'm just checking in quickly here. I would like to know three things of everyone:
1) How much Mafia have you played before (in person or online)?
2) How active are you typically in a Mafia game? That is, is there sort of a posts per day frequency that's approximately typical for you?
3) Are you scum?

1) A lot, I am new on mafiascum though.
2) Usually very active.
3) Of course not!

Oh and OMGUS
VOTE: pistachi0n

[duppin]

Oh dear lord

he is scummy because 1) he tried to divert attention from my firebringer wagon in a very sideways way
and 2) the only content post he makes calls someone out without a vote or any sort of follow up

not because he asked people how experienced they are.

comprende?

I think your read on Thesp makes sense, but I also agree with Alchemist that you should've put your vote on Thesp and not on Firebringer.

[duppin]

No I said his read makes sense, because I got the impression he thought you were telling him his read was wrong, but him not voting on Thesp was weird.

I believe RC is town and it seems like an easy train for scum to pile up on considering she did state the wouldn't mind voting on a town. But I just have a hard time imaging a scum playing like that. I am not too fond of her train to be honest. I like Alchemist, Quaroath's reaction to RC question him was fairly weird. First he voted on Thesp (so I assume he agreed with RC) but then he changed his vote to RC later as well. Not entirely sure what to make of Firebringer at the moment though.

[duppin]

@Dominator, care to explain your scumreads?

I may have been scumreading RC partly for playstyle. There are still parts of her early play that don't add up, and I still have a mild scumread on the slot, but I want to engage some other players for a while.

VOTE: Duppin

Where is this guy?

I am here.

I still believe RC is town and will not join that train. As previously stated I believe that was a scum train, so I'd like to look at the people who voted on her. (Alchemist, Firebringer, eventi and TheDominator.
I find eventi fairly suspicious, but the most interesting person to me was TheDominator and I was going to vote on him because of this:

This is the first game ever that I have had no reads this far

Then when the train on RC forms, he votes on him:

I'm going with who I think is most scummy atm
VOTE: rad

But then said something that made me reconsider.

Nether and eventi are looking like scum buddies VOTE: nether

He calls out eventi, the other person I find suspicious. I am not sure I like the vote on Nether though, I would have prefered if we had voted on eventi.

I believe there is a scum between eventi and TheDominator, but that is mostly because I townread RC. If RC isn't town, it obviously doesn't matter, but I have a hard time believing only town voted on her if she is.

I am also surprised you only called me out Alchemist, considering PMysterious has less posts than me and said 2 days that he would read through the thread, yet hasn't posted anything since that.

Anyway, I have Alchemist and RC as town and Firebringer is leaning town.

[duppin]

Sorry I am on my phone so not entirely sure the post makes a lot of sense. I had a lot of trouble with the quoting.

[duppin]

Almost forgot to vote. I will put my vote on TheDominator but I do not mind switching to eventi.

VOTE: TheDominator

[duppin]

A trend? Sure, how about looking at it this way. I am usually a very active player, I check the thread a lot and post a lot. However I am limited to my phone at the moment because I am on vacation till friday.
Perhaps I have been lurking yes, but here is a surprise for you, there are players with even less posts than me.

I dislike writing on my phone, so I only do it when I feel I need to. When people were pressuring RC I wanted to tell people not to, because I town read her and thought it was a silly train. I didn't share my scum reads before because I wanted to wait until friday so I could do it properly. I respond to you calling me out because I actually read the thread.

[duppin]

A trend? Sure, how about looking at it this way. I am usually a very active player, I check the thread a lot and post a lot. However I am limited to my phone at the moment because I am on vacation till friday.
Perhaps I have been lurking yes, but here is a surprise for you, there are players with even less posts than me.

I dislike writing on my phone, so I only do it when I feel I need to. When people were pressuring RC I wanted to tell people not to, because I town read her and thought it was a silly train. I didn't share my scum reads before because I wanted to wait until friday so I could do it properly. I respond to you calling me out because I actually read the thread.

I'm not as concerned by the fact that there are people with less posts as I am by the fact that you've beetlejuiced pretty hard, and you just tried to deflect onto those people with less posts.

I await your reads list.

Deflect? Um, not really.

[duppin]

So PMysterious you have any reads? This feels like your first post in the game. I had to actually look back and see that you were in the game.

Been very lurking this game.

So far I think Nether and Raidant are most likely scum or at least one. If only one then I have no clue on the other. Perhaps dupin.

Anyways going to V/LA till Sunday. Will try to post 1 or 2 times till then, but no promises.

What do you think about TheDominator and eventi?

[duppin]

@All Alone

TheDominator

is obvious scum since beginning of the game.
I'm just trying to find more obscure scum because we can always lynch

TheDominator37

. I doubt town will need any more to be convinced lynching him.

Yup I'm 10000000000% percent scum lynch me now
VOTE: dom

Uh I definitely want to lynch you now. If you are town you should never vote on yourself.

[duppin]

Why do you have Alchemist and Firebringer in the town column?

Firebringer:
I liked his interactions with RC.
When TheDominator (my scum read) stated he had no reads, Firebringer asked him if he didn't find RC suspicious. I do not believe they are aligned, so that means Firebringer would have to be town then.
It is obviously possible both of them are scum, but I would be very surprised if a scum asked his partner d1 to sheep his vote.

I do however not agree with any of his reads and that is concerning. I don't believe he is aligned with TheDominator, but he could definitely be with eventi (he "defended" him earlier.)
This makes eventi a very interesting lynch, but if TheDominator is town he deserves to die for voting on himself.

Alchemist:
I had him pegged as town because of his initial defense of RC and I really liked him questioning RC. This was mainly due to him bringing up the exact same thing I wanted to (RC voting on Firebringer instead of you).
He changed his mind on RC and I felt like he was revaluating and scumhunting. His play seemed very townish to me.

I do realise I have to reconsider my read on him though, because if RC and Firebringer are both town (which I am inclined to believe at the moment), he is actually fairly suspicious. I could also see him being with TheDom or eventi. But overall I think his play has been town.

I also have a town read on you (Thesp) simply because we scumread the same people.

[duppin]

You guys...

Anyway TheDominator, do you have a town read on anyone?

[duppin]

Eventi nether and cowbwll

Um Cowbell and Nether are both voting on Eventi though.

[duppin]

Or well RC changed his vote, but his vote was on eventi before. Seems unlikely they are together.

[duppin]

I thought you townread everyone but RC, nether and eventi. Why vote on All Alone then?

It feels like you are trolling. Your play has been scummy, I don't think your reaction to pressure is towny as some people seem to believe. If you are town, I'd actually say they are defending you for town cred, because I do not really understand why someone would want to keep you around if you are just going to troll.

[duppin]

Meh, I don't mind switching to eventi.

Not a huge fan of the Netherspite train.

[duppin]

UNVOTE: TheDominator

Eh not sure what to make of TheDominator and his "play". Very convenient.
But I don't see this train picking up at the moment, so I will put my vote on eventi instead.

VOTE: eventi

[duppin]

I already stated I would lynch you or Dom. I switched to you because no one joined the Dom train.

[duppin]

Alright had to catch up.

Persivul, why do you not like me asking Firebringer what he thinks of TheDominator and eventi? That was weird. Several of your reads makes no sense.

duppin, way to put pressure on the guy already under pressure.

What is this supposed to mean? What post are you even referring to? If you are talking about me switching my vote to eventi, it was to secure a lynch.
If you are talking about me question TheDominator, I was second one on his train, so if you are implying I was trying to bury someone who was under pressure (he wasn't even the leading train) that doesn't make any sense either.

So I have to assume you are talking about eventi. In either case it makes no sense. I clearly stated they were my scum reads very early on, and I thought there was a scum between them. I thought TheDominator was more likely to be scum, so I put my vote on him first, but the train didn't grow and we were close to deadline, so I switched to eventi because I wanted a lynch. You finding that scummy is fairly interesting. I do not mind you putting up another possible scum world, because I was actually considering that as well, but if this is a TvT, I honestly want to go for someone like dave or perhaps even you.

Let me elaborate. You are trying to force another possible world so much right now (by putting scum on me and thesp) that you can push that world tomorrow. This means if eventi is town, I think you are trying to get town credit, and then tomorrow you can push a lynch on one of us. Thesp could be scum, his reads align with mine though, so I tend to believe he is not. I know I am town though.

But meh. I still believe there is a scum between eventi and TheDominator. I can switch to TheDominator if people will actually join that train this time.

[duppin]

Alright I am back.

Second on my scum buddy's lynch:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p6990618

First on my scum buddy's lynch:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p6996897

This is in a game that Nether modded. So, when Nether notes that I'm defending eventi, it should be an indicator to him that I'm town, regardless of how eventi flips.

Um, WIFOM? This means nothing at all. I actually do not like you bringing this up, but oh well.

Actually your defense of eventi feels very weird. I do not believe both of you are scum (although it is possible), but your defense of him feels like a scum trying to gain town credit. You sound almost certain he will flip town, implying you know something that we do not.

Anyway, I will vote on eventi or TheDominator. I haven't changed my vote to TheDominator because I do not want to risk us getting a no-lynch. I will bere here for the next couple of hours so hopefully we can agree on a train. Hopefully people will show up soon.

[duppin]

There is a difference.

Nether has a meta read on you and I do not mind him bringing it up. I do not find that suspicious at all. I do not necessarily agree with it though, andd considering I am new at this site I don't really care that much about meta reads at the moment since I do not know any of you.
You bring it up to defend yourself. That is WIFOM and means absolutely nothing.

[duppin]

Nether is basically telling us you played the same way as scum in a game he modded. This is a fair point, it does not mean you are scum though.
You could've simply said: I do the same thing as town.
Instead you got very defensive, linked previous game where you were town trying to convince everyone you play the exact same way as town.
This reaction is very questionable and that defense means nothing, because it is WIFOM and everyone can change their game.

[duppin]

Eh I meant you linked a game where you were scum, claiming it means you are town now.

[duppin]

Okay I need to do this properly.

Nether claims you played the same way as scum in a previous game. This is worth noting.

You claim you are not scum now, because in that game you voted on your teammates (I mean, come on).

So you are basically saying that you are playing the same way as you did in that game. You claim you play the same way as town.
The only difference between that game and this, is you voted on your teammates in that game, while
(If Nether believes eventi is scum) you defended your teammate here. Do you not see how flawed your logic is?

I do not mind you defending yourself against meta reads, but this is terrible logic.
You bringing it up does not help you, because it is WIFOM.

I think you stating you play the same way as town would've been fine and then you could even link the town games.
I don't really mind that, not a huge fan of it either though.

[duppin]

I can't be bothered to read the games to be honest. I will read him based on his play here.

As I stated previously I think a lot of his reads are weird. Well at least I do not agree with most of them.
I did not like his reaction to Netherspite's push and his defense of eventi feels forced. Persivul is an interesting target, but I do not see any reason to look at him now though.
Perhaps day 2.

[duppin]

Speaking of the other scum...
I am actually tentative about the

Persivul

now. Yes he is behaving similarly to the other scumgame where he replaced in. However, outright defending the partner is weird scum move. Only if he thought he can turn it. Idk, need to think more.

Actually consdiering he came in as a replacement, I could actually see him do this, but it would be very risky. Not entirely sure what to make of him just yet, but his play has bothered me several times.

[duppin]

Anyway this leaves us with a pretty decent town circle to work with tomorrow.

[duppin]

Persivul is definitely suspicious, but I'd also like to take a look at Alchemist now. With eventi flipping scum, I'd say there is a decent chance Alchemist is scum as well.

[duppin]

Um, we are not going to lynch TheDominator (at least not right now). That train is most likely scum driven.
I thought TheDominator was town, but I revaluated him after eventi flipped town. His reaction to eventi during the end phase of the day also felt very genuine. I actually do think he is town, but his play yesterday was very questionable.
Anyway, let us be honest guys. What train did you expect scum to push on today? TheDominator's (if he wasn't scum obviously).

I do not like this train, and if you are town you need to figure out who the scum (could be more) is between:
RC, Alchemist and Nether.

[duppin]

I don't think either of

RadiantCowbells

or

Alchemist

are scum.

Speaking of the train, if

TheDominator37

is town then I believe scum has equal incentive to push it as town has. Because his play yesterday was really weird and his gambit looked worse and worse the more time passed since (because he didn't change his play after the 'gambit' and because the results of his 'gambit' were weak). Considering the flips, I highly doubt he's town. So I think he can be genuinely scumread by town (and I do scumread him as town so this adds to the point for me).

This statement rings a little hollow, considering you were the first one to push the train on RC. I agree that this might be the case though, and perhaps TheDominator is scum. At the moment though, I am inclined to believe he is not. So you are saying three town instantly pushed a train on a (suspicious) player? Possible, but unlikely.
If you do not think RC and Alchemist are scum, then you are probably scum yourself.

[duppin]

I mean the first one to push the train on TheDominator.

[duppin]

Okay, let us assume TheDominator is town.

How often does 3 townies d2 instantly vote on another town?

[duppin]

I do believe there is at least one scum between the three of you. You trying to buddy up to them "I don't think either of RadiantCowbells or Alchemist are scum." is worth noting.

Given those 2 flips, I can no longer see

TheDominator37

as town.

This post is very suspicious as well, because your read is based on the flip of eventi and the NK. So if you are a mafia and wanted to force a lynch on TheDominator, this is exactly how you would do not.

Anyway your d1 was very towny, I am not saying you are the scum, but it is possible. I'd like you to revaluate Alchemist and RC when you have the time.

[duppin]

Sorry on my phone.

I obviously meant how you would do it*

[duppin]

3 townies can easily vote on another town at the beginning of the day. I can look for examples but you can find them yourself

Yes it is possible, but unlikely, especially considering the circumstances.

I'm not buddying anyone, I'm considering them town based on their behavior D1 & in twilight + on the flips.

To be honest I don't really care what you say. Perhaps it is nothing, maybe it is you buddying, doesn't matter. It is worth noting.

Speaking of NK, if I were scum I wouldn't kill

Firebringer

. What's the point? He was suspected enough to mislynch him later.

Because it makes it easier for scum to push a lynch on TheDominator.

[duppin]

Okay, I'm resetting my reads. The Firebringer kill disturbs me a lot and I can't think of any reason why he would be the kill over half of the players still alive.

That'll happen sometime tomorrow.

This is the same for me - I have a lot of catching up to do after being out of town and my anniversary yesterday (13 years!). I'll try to read up, but the Firebringer kill is one I wouldn't have predicted. (Maybe avoiding a doc protect? I'm happy not to have the distraction in any case.)

I have seen several people saying that some others were confirmed in twilight by reactions to things - I'd love to hear why, as I didn't have any reactions or feelings as to anyone being confirmed.

And I'd love to see you respond to All Alone's push on you.

[duppin]

There was some debate over whether or not Persivul was acting like he did in his scum-game. Nether said he was because of his entrance, Pers said he wasn't because in the previous game he voted to lynch both of his buddies.

Two things:

1. I was playing that game too, and he only voted his buddies after they turned up mafia after cop investigation.
2. Eventi flipped town. Since we don't know who the scum are, we don't know if Persivul is defending them or bussing them, so at this point, it's a moot argument.
3. I thought it was weird that Pers went from "hammering eventi is scum" to "now that we don't have much time left, I take that back, hammering is good but I'm not going to hammer yet" to finally hammering eventi, the town player.

I will probably vote Persivul today.

This is what you said d1:

If Eventi flips scum, my reads tomorrow will be similar to today. If Eventi flips town, I'll be more suspicious of Thesp tomorrow.

You chose not to mention him today though. What is your read on him?

[duppin]

Because it makes it easier for scum to push a lynch on TheDominator.

It would be pretty easy to push a lynch on him regardless of the NK because of his pretty scummy play D1.

Perhaps, but who would TheDominator be aligned with? Please tell me. Who are his teammates?

[duppin]

Duppin you think that scum see Dominator ad an easy lynch. People are easy lunches because they look scummy. So you're admitting that he looks scummy. Why do you then town read him?

His playstyle screams desperate townie to me. I don't see him being aligned with anyone. I liked his interaction with eventi yesterday during the end.
He was not my top scum yesterday. His playstyle was very questionable and made him an obvious target. It was very interesting to see who would join the train. But now that eventi flipped town, it means mafia had an easy time d1.
I thought eventi was fairly scummy to be honest.

Your reaction to eventi was weird though. (You were doubting his mafia claim, I don't understand why a town would have any reason to do that. But if you were mafia, it would be really dumb of you to do it, so meh.)

[duppin]

Okay, I'm resetting my reads. The Firebringer kill disturbs me a lot and I can't think of any reason why he would be the kill over half of the players still alive.

That'll happen sometime tomorrow.

This is the same for me - I have a lot of catching up to do after being out of town and my anniversary yesterday (13 years!). I'll try to read up, but the Firebringer kill is one I wouldn't have predicted. (Maybe avoiding a doc protect? I'm happy not to have the distraction in any case.)

I have seen several people saying that some others were confirmed in twilight by reactions to things - I'd love to hear why, as I didn't have any reactions or feelings as to anyone being confirmed.

When Eventi claimed scum in Twilight, Nether and RC caeeied on trying to form reads based on associatives that he was scum. Tbh Nether hammed it up a bit, but considering his overall play it wasn't surprising, and RC just completely fell for it and had the most genuine reaction.

Nether's reaction was good, but it is very easy for scum to fake it.
I want to point out that Nether was very vocal during twilight, called people out to comment on the flip. This could've been an attempt to bring attention to himself. ("hay look at me, I believe eventi's scum claim").

[duppin]

Pistcahi0n please answer my question.

[duppin]

Netherspite I asked you who TheDominator's teammates would be. You've obviously seen my question since you quoted TheDominator's answer to it, so please answer it.

[duppin]

Nope, I am not. I asked him a question, please let him answer it.

[duppin]

Okay so you are dodging the question. Interesting, but oh well.

[duppin]

No you did not give me an answer. Basically you are just saying "he could be aligned with anyone". While that is true, that was not my question. I wish to know who you think he could be with. To me the answer seems fairly obvious. Please note that does not mean it is the case.

In any case, the most obvious teammates for him would be Pistachi0n and davesaz. Read their ISO's and you'll understand.
The next on the list would probably be Persivul and All Alone. Persivul did try to push a lynch on him at the end of d1 so it seems unlikely.
All Alone pushed on him d1. He did however believe TheDominator's gambit, but he explained why and it did make sense, so I do not think that is the case either.

That means (based on your town list), his teammates would be Persivul and Pistachi0n (in your world). I do realise mafia is never that simple, but please just follow along.
Do you think that is the case?

[duppin]

No I am not ignoring other players. But these are the most likely players to be aligned with him based on d1.

[duppin]

No I am not ignoring other players. But these are the most likely players to be aligned with him based on d1.

Why?

I suggest you go read d1 again.

I agree that he could be misdirecting people. But if that is the case, who do you think his teammates could be? Anyone? Sure, but who do you scumread? Is TheDominator really your only scum read?

[duppin]

Why not me for example?
I refused to switch to him from

eventi

.

All the others on his wagon also refused to switch.
Why not them?

Why not you? Yeah I wonder why. Perhaps it has something to do with you trying to get him lynched now.

I see no reason to go over everyone right now. I'd prefer if you gave me something to work with instead.

[duppin]

No, read d1. This is based on logic.

Now answer my question please. Who do you scum read?

[duppin]

No I am not.

Anyway, here is the thing.
I believe a mafia voted on TheDominator. I believe RC is town. It is possible he is mafia, but my read hasn't changed on him. I still think he is town.
I think the mafia is between Nether and Alchemist. Alchemist was my top scum between the three of you, but I am not entirely sure right now.
I need to determine whether Nether is a confused townie or scum.

You need to convince me you are town. You refusing to put scum on anyone but TheDominator is not a great start.
You not wanting to give me a possible world (I don't care how stupid it is) to work with is interesting as well, because it seems to imply to me you aren't really evaluating the game and just tunneling on one person. This is not necessarily alignment indicative though.
Eventi is a great example. You were tunneling on him very hard, and he was town. In no way will I let you lead a lynch today. I want you to stop tunneling on people, and revaluate all of your reads.

There is most likely a mafia between you, Alchemist and RC. I need you to understand this. It is fine if you don't agree, but just live in the world for a moment.

I want to lynch the mafia between you and if you are town you need to help me find the scum and stop refusing to work with me.
You stating that all of you are most likely town does sound like a mafia being pinned up trying to align himself with the other townies getting 'pressured'. To me it sounds like you simply refuse to believe in a world where one of you is mafia, and that is a red flag to me. Just consider the world a possibility. I don't expect you to do this now, as you may have to read through the thread once more.

[duppin]

I didn't use manipulation. What are you even talking about.

I tried to ask you who his teammates could be. You answered "anyone". While that is a true statement, some people are more likely to be aligned with him simply based on logic.
Davesaz defended him d1, so was obviously one of the candidates.
Pistachi0n never voted on TheDominator and only mentioned him once d1. ("I don't yet buy TheDominator's "gambit," but if he posts some convincing analysis on the reactions he got, I'll keep an open mind.")
All Alone pushed on TheDominator pretty hard, but as soon as TheDominator claimed he was just pretending to be dumb, All Alone unvoted and said he believed him.
Persivul came in at a time where Eventi was pretty much the confirmed lynch and tried to push a lynch on TheDominator. It was still a bit risky, so I think it is unlikely they are aligned.

These are the four top candidates, and it is very unlikey that Persivul would be with him.
You were town reading Davesaz and All Alone, so that would mean Persivul and Pistachi0n would be aligned with TheDominator. I then asked you if that was the case, which it was not apparently.
So I then asked you who you think could be his teammates then? You can easily make a case for multiple players, but these four are the most obvious ones and if you don't think they are, I wish to who you think it could be. You didn't give me an answer, so I simply asked who else you were scum reading. Apparently no one? You don't want to answer my question at least.

[duppin]

Oh and please do note, I think TheDominator is town so I am not scumreading these people.

Pistcahi0n please answer my question.

Thesp started off by asking the three questions, which I was originally townreading him for, until it was pointed out to me that he does that in all his games. So, that's null for him. He voted Sword Master in 133 because of the stupid post that was something like "oh so this is where the game is," and no posts afterwards. I didn't take that as intention that he wanted to lynch Sword Master, just that he wanted to encourage activity. That's good. I don't think lurkers are necessarily scum, but I do think scum either want to easily lynch lurkers or ignore them, not put pressure on them just to talk the way Thesp was doing. So I liked that vote.

Someone said the hifiving people who agree with him was scummy. I've only seen one other person do similar things and they were town.

After Sword Master's replacement talks, he votes eventi, having previously said he was scum-reading eventi. Looking back he never made much of a case on Eventi, but he did respond to eventi's comments by questioning the town motivation. Said he was happy lynching either eventi or dom but eventi had the wagon.

Then he changed his vote to Dominator because that was where the wagon was now. That seems a little opportunistic, but he had previously said he was okay with lynching both of them.

Changes to eventi again, moving with the wagon.

Today he said he still has some catching up to do, so I'll wait on that.

Weak scumread right now.

Thank you.

[duppin]

I already answered this.

[duppin]

@duppin

As I said, my problem with your posts was that you combined

your

conclusion +

my

conclusion and put the result in my mouth.
You can't just do that. It's

your

conclusion and it's stupid to expect everyone to think like you.

False. I asked you if it was the case. You implied it was not, so I asked you to bring up another possible world.

Speaking of your questions I 'ignored'. I didn't ignore them.

Call it what you want to. Fact is I asked you in #688 if you had any scum reads. You did not answer, instead you kept talking about me putting words in your mouth, which I have already proven was not the case.

Then I asked you again in #691, and you said "Please stop telling me what to do, kkthx.", and talked about me putting words in your mouth once again.

[duppin]

Duppin can you reconcile your current town read on dom with your numerous scum reads pin him d1? You were saying one of eventi or dom is scum...eventi flipped green...d2 you suddenly say we won't be lynching dom.

You already asked me once and I answered you. (#663)

[duppin]

You already asked me once and I answered you. (#663)

You said: "His playstyle screams desperate townie to me. I don't see him being aligned with anyone. I liked his interaction with eventi yesterday during the end."

Again, what specific posts of interaction with eventi led to your complete reversal on him?

It is not a specific post per se. When Eventi flipped town, I feared the world of it being TvT (which I also brought up yesterday) with mafia just laughing at them.
This means I had to revaluate TheDominator, because he would be the most obvious lynch. Check his ISO with a different and fresh mindset. He is not some mastermind who planned all of this.

By genuine, I felt he believed eventi's scum claim. I also do not see a scum post this:

Well 1 hour SOMEONE HAMMER EVENTI OT YOU ARE SCUM

Sure it is WIFOM and whatever, but I doubt he would be that obvious. The thing, is we believe that is the case, then it would be so his scum team could lynch him today for town credit. That still means there is a scum on his train. By going after his train, there pretty much has to be scum, regardless of TheDominator's alignment.

I choose to believe he is town, because I revaluated him. The only possible scenario for him to be scum (and play that silly) would be to distance himself from his mafia. That also means they would bus him for town credit, unless it is super duper WIFOM, but who exactly wants to pursue that world.

[duppin]

You didn't answer to me, now you for some reason do not answer to

Persivul

...

Yeah, wrong. I answered this when answering Persivul. . You not being satisfied with the answer is a different thing.

And yes, you did put words in my mouth:

Next time read the whole thing. I asked you if this was the case. When you indirectly denied it, I asked you what you believed in then.
I never put words in your mouth, you are just being sensitive.

And no, "don't tell me what to do" wasn't an answer to whether I have any other reads or not. It was an answer to you keeping saying that I have to re-read the game (like I don't know without you saying it)

I see, my bad.

[duppin]

Sure it is WIFOM and whatever, but I doubt he would be that obvious.

How probably it is that someone who spent the whole game day playing 'too scummy to be scum' would just do another 'too scummy to be scum' thing?
What? Zero? Please...

I am sorry, but please read the whole thing next time. I state even if he is scum, he would only do it for town credit. Your point is fairly irrelevant, because unlike you, I cover both possibilities. In either scenario, there is a 99% there is a scum on his train.

[duppin]

Erh, I mean he would do it so his teammates could gain town credit.

[duppin]

Sure it is WIFOM and whatever, but I doubt he would be that obvious.

How probably it is that someone who spent the whole game day playing 'too scummy to be scum' would just do another 'too scummy to be scum' thing?
What? Zero? Please...

I am sorry, but please read the whole thing next time. I state even if he is scum, he would only do it for town credit. Your point is fairly irrelevant, because unlike you, I cover both possibilities. In either scenario, there is a 99% there is a scum on his train.

So now you changed your point from him being town to scum being on his train regardless of his alignment. Did you change the focus because you decided that you can't convince us in your first claim? This looks bad.

Oh god, I can understand why Eventi got frustrated.

I can't be bothered continuing this with you. I think TheDominator is town, but I still cover the possibility of him being scum. I do not tunnel, unlike you. I read the whole game.
I take it you might be a fairly new player, and I apologise if I am being annoying then but this is just..

Anyway, I sincerely hope you are scum, because if you are a townie you need to revaluate all of your reads. That is all I have to say.

I will be back later. Hopefully some of the other players will show up.

[duppin]

@duppin

Let's go through what just happened step-by-step.

1. You insisted that

TheDominator37

is town and said that the reason for this read was his interaction with

eventi

late D1.
2. I asked you to elaborate on that.
3. After refusing to do so for some time you finally said that it's when he asked out loud for the hammer appealing to the wrong deadline and it would be too obvious for the scum to do. You also noted that even if he's scum there would be scum on his wagon.
4. I said that he was acting 'too scummy to be scum' the whole day and there is no reason he would change it at this post you're referencing.
5. You repeat that even if he's scum there's scum on his wagon.

I believe I've understood everything listed above correctly.
If not please point at the wrong part.
If everything above is correct then you definitely switched focus from him being town to scum being on his train regardless of his alignment when you decided you can't prove that your first claim was the case.

Where am I wrong?

1. I believe he is town. I thought he was fairly scummy yesterday, but after eventi flipped I had to revaluate, because it could've been a TvT, which means mafia would most likely get an easy victory.
After doing that I sincerely believe he is town. This is based on his overall play.
2. And I answered to you by answering Persivul.
3. I still never refused to answer it, nor did I ever state that the reason for town reading him was based on his post about hammering eventi.
I simply brought up one of the things that made me reconsider his alignment.
His play was so questionable, so if he was scum it could lead to his teammates bussing him for town credit.
4. This is irrelevant. This changes nothing, you have no reason to even bring it up. I told you that if he was scum (which I do not believe),
I would still believe there was a scum on his train because it would've been a play for town credit. So the safest option in either case in my world would to look at the train.
5. Yes because you apparently failed to understand the logic.

You can respond if you wish, however I will most likely not respond to it because I can't be arsed. If you are town, you are wrong, if you are scum, well yeah.

Let's take a look at this logic instead of the reads themselves for a moment.

You're still drawing an arbitrary line of sand in the ground whereby there's scum in the 3 of us, when in reality there is no reason to think that. If he's scum, who is to say that his partners would jump on the wagon faster than town who scumread him? If he's town, he's been so scummy that town could be realistically jumping on it 3 at a time.

Whether the guy's town or scum, there's no call to assume there's scum on the wagon, besides finding scum independently who just happen to BE on the wagon.

That said, I don't like this vote anymore, so

VOTE: Persivul

You're not this dense.

How about no.

You are claiming that 3 townies voted on 1 townie right after each other while scum were just chilling.
Yeah, I am not going to buy that.

Duppin, I have a question--why are you searching out TheDominator's partners if you're townreading him? What's the point? If he's town, he doesn't have any partners to search. If he's scum, I understand it more, but today you said you're town-reading him.

I am not looking for his partners. I don't think he is scum, so I do not believe he has any partners.
Nether believes he is scum, so I wanted to see who he thought he could be aligned with.

Anyway we are not lynching TheDominator today, simple as that. The sooner you people realise that the better. I will be going to sleep now.

[duppin]

Sorry guys, I have been busy with work. Will catch up later.

[duppin]

Alright, I need to clarify something.

I believe TheDominator is town.

The train on him today was very interesting. I find it difficult to believe there is not a scum on that train, but it is possible.
Some of you seem to believe that I am only interested in the people on the train, but that is not the case.

This is why I asked Nether who he was scumreading. Unfortunately TheDominator, whom I believe to be town, was his only scum. I find this very interesting.

Okay, let us assume TheDominator is town.

How often does 3 townies d2 instantly vote on another town?

Let's take this forward another step.

What exactly are scum doing while this is going on?

I apologise for missing this.

This is relevant though.

If there is not a scum on TheDominator train, it means that the scum are most likely lurking.
In that case, I'd probably lynch someone like davesz or Thesp.

I gave Nether a chance to push this world, but he did not. Nether is either a confused townie or scum, and I am having a hard time finding out.

So at the moment I think the people pushing on TheDominator are more scummy, simply because they are pushing on my town read.
It is possible all of them are town, and that means that mafia can choose whatever side they want to. I wish at least one of the people on TheDominator train
would actually consider a world where TheDominator was town, but they simply refuse to and it makes it very hard for me to town read them.
It does however mean that if they are town, scum are most likely buddying with me.

So, right now I am more inclined to believe in a world where scum (or some of them) are pushing on TheDominator, because they seem more suspicious to me at the moment.
That does not mean it is the only possible world, but you are not doing a very good job of convincing me of another one.

Sorry but I don't think this makes any sense. I believe it is very likely that a scum was on TheDominator train. I do not know who it is,
so that is why I pushed and questioned to learn something. If you expect me to go "X is scum", you will be disappointed.

---

How often does 3 townies d2 instantly vote on another town?

duppin

, this is a bad line of argument. I want to hear who you suspect and why, rather than "Odds are good that 1 in 3 is scum!".

Sorry, but I disagree. I believe it is ver likely that a scum was on TheDominator train, so I have been trying to figure out who it is.
If you expect me to go "X is scum", you will be disappointed. I've been questioning them because I am want to find out.

[duppin]

Okay doing this on my phone turned out to be terrible. I apparently did not realise I already answered Thesp's, so I chose to reply to it once more. Oh well. (The text above the quote was obviously an answer to it)

[duppin]

I did consider the world, and we've already spoken about that. I'd still look at the same people, because I believe it would've been a busplay. I gave you a chance you convince me of it not being, asking you about scumreads, but you failed to prove it.
At this point I am convinced he is town though. I just need to figure out whether you are one confused townie or you are actually scum.

Anyway, I will be back later, I have a lot to do at the moment. I sincerely hope people will start to be a bit more active. If you are town, please start contributing.

[duppin]

You failed to provide* it. Thanks autocorrect.

[duppin]

First of all I want to apologise for not being here, I've been very busy

Anyway this is fairly interesting. Will be back later today and post some more.

So you outed the cop, and you want to lynch town. I think I'll let you do it so you're revealed as the fucking idiot that you are.

Nether and alchemist are likely town. RC is likely town VI, as usual.

People should be looking for scum in the rest of the eventi wagon (excluding duppin as he's presumably a dead cop tomorrow):

pistachi0n
TheDominator37
davesaz
Thesp

null - all alone, ankamius

If that is the case, people should at all of them, including Nether and Alchemist. If you believe me and TheDominator are town now, you should realise you probably have to revaluate your reads. You keeping a hard town read on people who has only voted on town so far (if you actually do believe in this world) is a bit questionable. What makes you believe Alchemist is more likely to be town than, let's say, Pistachi0n?

I am also very interested in Netherspite's reads. He claimed he would revaluate everything, but I still do not see a single scum read from him. Something I noticed several people calling Thesp out on (afraid to step on someone's toes)

[duppin]

It was not your scum pool. You gave town a list and told people to look at them, yet you excluded your town reads. I think that is a mistake.

Are you only town reading Alchemist for having the same twilight reads as you?
Please note that the reads are rather useless, as it is easy for a scum to fake it. Your reaction was terrible, but that does not mean anything. I do not think you should town read someone simply based on their reaction, and I got the feeling this is the only reason you are townreading Nether?

[duppin]

Nope, I just dislike the way you did it.

Anyway,

I'd like you to explain your townread on Alchemist. Is it only because he had the same twilight reads?

Id also like you to explain your town read on Nether, thanks.

[duppin]

Okay so I agree with Persivul, we should definitely look at the eventi train.
While it is definitely possible mafia did not vote on him, I sincerely doubt that is the case. So I'd expect at least one mafia to be on that train.

This was the train:

Netherspite, Pistachi0n, TheDominator, davesaz, duppin, Thesp, Persivul.

I am obviously not going to talk about myself.

I see no reason to spam you guys with a wall of text, so I will just start with Nether. I have some questions for him as well that I'd like him to answer (will post them at the end of this post)

Netherspite:

Terrible voting record.

Day 1:
-#16: RVS vote on Firebringer (confirmed town.)
-#29: Vote on TheDominator (leaning town)
-#111: Puts his vote back on Firebringer.
-#172: Changes his vote to eventi (confirmed town).

Day 2:

-#636: Vote on TheDominator.

So he has been voting on three people, two are confirmed townies and the last one is probably town as well.
Apparently he does not have a single scum read on anyone today (except TheDominator).

He did scumread two other players though.

-#134: Calls RC's wagon scumdriven. RC's wagon was: Alchemist21, Firebringer (confirmed town), Quaroath/Ankamius, eventi(confirmed town)
-#136: Later clarifies that he believes that Firebringer is scum, and says that he finds Quaraoth/Ankamius and eventi scummy.


-#572: Scumreading Persivul?
I never quote understood this, but it sounded to me like he was scumreading Persivul based on a meta read.
Surprised to see you not mentioning this today at all.

He also aligned himself with several players.

-#83: Called it a TvT between RC and Alchemist. (He aligned himself with RC throughout the whole day).

Alright this is basically what he did day 1. But there are several posts I find questionable.
-#507:
If Eventi flips town, he will look for scum among All Alone, Thesp, TheDominator and RC.
Eventi flipped town, yet he is townreading All Alone and RC today.
I guess that means he want to look at Thesp and TheDominator. (He voted on day 2, so it is consistent)

However:

-#253: Says TheDominator is obvious scum since the beginning, so he'd rather look for more obscure scum.

Why would you not rather push Thesp than TheDominator? I think we can all agree Thesp is a bigger threat at this point.
When I tried to ask you for your scumreads earlier you never mentioned Thesp (you gave a townread on All Alone and RC which I can accept), but you ignored the fourth person you said you would.
That was very interesting.

-#366: Can see a scumteam of TheDominator, Firebringer and eventi.

To be honest I don't mind this post that much, just thought it was an interesting team.

-#457: Calls Firebringer and eventi scum.
Why would he NK his scum read? I mean it could be to casue confusion, or perhaps because the mafia thought he was a tpr. (Or to avoid a doctor save I guess, but meh)

-#524: "Also, caring much about your own survival as town is stupid. You can lose even if you survive. You can win even if you don't survive. Your goal is make town catching the scum. If your flip will help that - you should be fine with your lynch.
I am always fine with my lynch if it contributes important information to the town."
-#527: Would prefer his own lynch over TheDominator because it will provide more information to the town.

I don't think this is a particularly scummy statement, but it is very interesting.

Questions.

1: You claimed the train on RC day 1 was scumdriven. (Alchemist, FireBringer, Quaroath/Ankamius and eventi).
Two of them are confirmed town and you townread Alchemist. What do you think about the train now?

2: You stated that if eventi flips town, you'll look for scum among All Alone, Thesp, TheDominator and RC.
When I questioned you earlier about your scum reads you only wanted to go for TheDominator though. You are town reading All Alone and RC.
Why are you not going for Thesp then? What is your read on him?

3: I'd also like to know your read on All Alone. You town reading him all of a sudden was a bit of a surprise to me (based on your previous statement.

4: You were scumreading Persivul day 1, correct? The impression I got from you is that you are afraid of him just sliding by as mafia.
How and why exactly did you town read him today then? If you fear him so much it seems a bit weird.

Sorry for the wall of text.

[duppin]

Um so yeah, I just realised Nether is V/LA. Oh well, might as well just go for pistachi0n then.
Voting record:

Day 1:
-#31: RVS on duppin
-#399: Vote on eventi

Day 2:
-#697: Vote on Persivul

Not very interesting. Can't really blame her for her voting record. Several townies voted on eventi obviously. It is possible Persivul is scum, so can't really comment on that vote.

So this is what troubles me a little. She has not been very active this game, so there is not much to go on. This means I am having a hard time getting a read on her (at least with the flips we've seen so far).
If this game is nothing but TvT, I'd say she is very scummy, but seeing as we do not know that I don't think that is the case. I do like some of what she has done so far.

She did do one thing that bothered me, but I have already asked her about that. I asked her d2 about her read on Thesp today, simply because of this:

-#103: Town reads Thesp. Not a big fan of the reason for the townread though. Thinks RC and Alchemist is TvT.
-#140: Responds to All Alone's question (questioning her townread on Thesp). Says she is still townreading Thesp.
She didn't not explain why though.
-#397: Says she is townreading Thesp. I found this very interesting because she did not mention him in #338.

Overall it was obvious that she had a pretty strong town read on Thesp.

-#427: If eventi flips town, she will be more suspicious of Thesp.

This was honestly the only thing I had written next to her name after d1. (Stating that she would find her town read scummy if eventi flipped town).
However she chose not to mention Thesp at all (instead she focused on Persivul, which is okay, but she did not vote on him at first so if she didn't intend to tunnel I don't see why she wouldn't mention him but oh well.)
So I asked her about her read on Thesp and she answered.

-#697: This is the answer. Basically she says she has a weak scum read on Thesp. If she is scumreading her, I really do not like the fact that she chose not to bring that up earlier. She did however state that she would wait for him to catch up with the thread, so that could explain why.

She townread several people day 1 though (I am not including Thesp this time):

-#263: Townreads Nether. Says that if Dom flips town Nether will be looking more towny. Not entirely sure I agree though.
-#338: Alchemist is her strongest town read. She is still townreading Nether at this point and has RC pegged as town as well.

Day 1 she was only pushing on TheDominator (leaning town) and eventi (confirmed town). Can't really blame her though, but it is interesting for multiple reasons.

-#264: Explains that she was town reading eventi early but is scum reading him now. Very interesting considering the pressure was going this way.
-#338: Scumreading eventi and TheDominator.

The timing of the eventi scumread was a bit weird, considering multiple people (well, me and Thesp) called him scummy just before this. I can't help but wonder what would've happened if we hadn't anything.

-#631: Calls Persivul scummy. First time she mentions him all game though.
Would've prefered if she had brought this up d1 (the stuff about the meta read), but meh. I like the push, although I am not entirely sure I agree with the read. (I don't think securing a lynch is scummy).

So as previously mentioned, pistachi0n could be scum. I could see her being aligned with Thesp, but she would not have to be. She is definitely a question mark.
She has not really done anything super scummy so far, but she could definitely be a lurking mafia. (Especially if this game is a TvT party).
I did not like #264. I am actually curious if I am the only one who finds the timing a bit strange (now that we know eventi was town).
I do like the fact that she is pushing on Persivul today though.

I only have two questions, and depending on your answer I probably have a follow up to both of them.

Questions.

1: What is your read on Thesp now? In #697 (your reply to me) you implied you would revaluate him when he caught up with the thread, which he has now.

2: What do you think about davesaz?

[duppin]

So this is what troubles me a little. She has not been very active this game, so there is not much to go on.

Low activity isn't indicative of alignment for her. In one game she was scum and used it to her advantage. In another I was scum and used it to my advantage.

I am not saying it is. I am saying it makes it difficult for me to get a read on her.

[duppin]

I meant, most of the high activity players (ie all but you) are town.

I voted you for fishing Duppin's role, as I said at the end, but I corrected Duppin's logic in the same post.

You did not correct anything. I hope you do realise it was a play.
While I do think there is a high possibility that scum was on the train, I clearly stated that I would not mind lynching anyone not on it later.
However I did push on the train at first to get reactions, and I thought it was rather interesting.

Nether looked very bad after n1 (ignore twilight), considering that not only did he only push on town, both of the confirmed dead town scumread Nether. This makes Firebringer a very risky kill for him, so I thought it was a possibility that perhaps scum set it up to push on Nether. When I questioned Nether though, no one found him questionable.
I was met with a lot of resistance when pushing on the train, which was fairly interesting as well. Might be worth to look at once we get more information, but not right now.

Most people town read you as well.
Some people did find Alchemist suspicious though.

I am not entirely sure who I want to lynch at this point. I would not mind if Alchemist tried to find scum on the eventi train instead though. I don't really want to lynch anyone not on it today, and I would be very surprised if Alchemist actually believes he can get a All Alone train going.

[duppin]

TheDominator, I disagree actually. I thought Alchemist's day 1 was very good.

Anyway to be completely honest, I am currently leaning towards this game being a case of TvT. I'd like to see a bit more activity from some of you. I mean sure, we still have 5 days, but it does not look like we can agree on a lynch just yet so.

[duppin]

Thesp, why are you not prepared to vote davesaz?

[duppin]

Thesp, why are you not prepared to vote davesaz?

Same comment I made to Ank. It would really help me to read you if your criteria for scum reads made sense.

I am sorry, but did you quote the wrong post? I did not talk about anyone being scum.

[duppin]

Thesp, why are you not prepared to vote davesaz?

Same comment I made to Ank. It would really help me to read you if your criteria for scum reads made sense.

I am sorry, but did you quote the wrong post? I did not talk about anyone being scum.

Well, that's an interesting response. It doesn't really answer the question I asked.
I'm torn between calling this outright evasive, vs. being cognizant of the possibility that you think you've been misrepresented.

Perhaps I should expand this into multiple questions. I understand #3 may be redundant but it would be helpful to have that in conjunction with #2.

1. What was the intent of asking Thesp that question. I could make this multiple choice but I think it would be more revealing to get a freeform answer.

2. What criteria are you using for scum reads?

3. Who are your scum reads. Do they meet your criteria from #2?

1. Curiosity.

2. I have no idea what you are talking about to be honest.

3. I haven't decided who I want to vote on yet, you will just have to wait and see.

[duppin]

I think your reaction is very interesting though. I never stated I wanted to vote you or that I was scumreading you. I simply asked Thesp why he was not ready to vote on you, because I thought it was a weird statement.

[duppin]

@duppin, fair enough on 1 and 3.

Am I falling into my bad habit of assuming too much of my readers? Generically speaking, what do you look for when scum reading someone? I don't think it's possible to make it any clearer than that.

Pedit: It's no secret that I tend to respond more to things where I'm mentioned than things which don't mention me. I try not to make it an exclusive thing, but I know my alignment (town) and therefore can make direct use of how people read me as information on how to read them. Differences in how you evaluate similar things posted by me vs. someone else is also valuable, but it will work better if I know what you're using as a basis for the evaluation.

The thing is I do not think the question is relevant. When I give a scum read, I explain why I scum read them.

[duppin]

I scum read people for all kinds of reasons. I do not look for a specific thing. I have no idea what you were trying to accomplish with that question. If you wish to get a read on me, you should check my ISO.

[duppin]

So you think RC is scum?

[duppin]

Ankamius does not like us guys.

[duppin]

Considering Persivul might get modkilled, please don't vote for him. Anyway I will be back later.

[duppin]

I'd really like to see Persivul flip before voting (if he gets modkilled that is).

[duppin]

VOTE: Davesaz
So Thesp, do you still not want to vote on him? (3 trains hype, best way to secure a lynch!11)

Hopefully the mod will answer Thesp's question though.

[duppin]

Oh and do not worry, I will obviously switch if I need to. I do however think davesaz is a rather interesting target (his reaction to me asking you a queston was very questionable).

[duppin]

Alright sounds fair.

[duppin]

Thanks for the game, well played.