Mini 1697 - a Re-balanced Game of Mafia - GAME OVER

[ActionDan]

Official Vote Count

Thesp

(3): All Alone, Persivul, davesaz

Alchemist21

(2): Thesp, TheDominator37

Persivul

(2): pistachi0n, Ankamius

All Alone

(1): Alchemist21

davesaz

(1): RadiantCowbells

Not Voting

(2): Netherspite, duppin

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2015-08-10 18:30:00)

[davesaz]

The way Thesp :highfive: s everyone who agrees with him, and always adds me into every decision is what I find manipulative; I've since moved my vote to TheDominator since I don't think there's anyone else looking at Thesp at all.

Explanation of Thesp from eventi.

Some quick notes

going from memory

.
I can accept correct+reasonable does not imply town.

Will need to re-read Thesp in that light

. But I don't see a wagon being possible today.

Going from memory of that post, I make a note to re-read Thesp.

Taking my own advice, high activity level doesn't imply town (I have been in many games where scum was in the top 5 posters either in terms of #posts or post length).

This prompted me to take a look,

and Thesp's activity is a lot more superficial than I remembered.

VOTE: Thesp

After re-reading Thesp, I don't like his posting and vote him.

[Persivul]

mod please replace me

[TheDominator37]

V/LA over

[duppin]

TheDominator, I disagree actually. I thought Alchemist's day 1 was very good.

Anyway to be completely honest, I am currently leaning towards this game being a case of TvT. I'd like to see a bit more activity from some of you. I mean sure, we still have 5 days, but it does not look like we can agree on a lynch just yet so.

[All Alone]

I'd love for everyone voting me to give their opinions on Alchemist21 (and I note that Persivul has weakly, as has TheDominator37 to some extent).

Alchemist reads town to me, mainly because of this sequence from his fight with Cowbells:

These are non-Thesp posts from when Cowbells voted Firebringer to the post on Page 2 where Cowbell brings up suspicion on Thesp. There are numerous examples of people RVS'ing and responding to the RQS questions without addressing Cowbell's vote on Firebringer. I don't get why Cowbells is singling out Thesp here, because aside from actually starting the RQS he did nothing unusual.

The first two posts I quoted were made before Thesp's. What's their excuse?

And you should know that if people wanted to address your vote they would do it even if there was another topic being discussed. There's nothing that prevents multiple topics from being discussed at once. You're trying ridiculously hard to try linking Thesp with Firebringer when your reasoning for doing so makes no sense.

What? It's bad because he voted Thesp after you voted Firebringer? That's crappy reasoning.
Also, someone actually looked into games a while back and found scum don't often RVS each other. The site meta may have shifted a bit because of that thread, but it's certainly not common enough to automatically assume that if someone flips scum their RVS vote is their partner.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

Firebringer may still be scum, but Cowbells is trying unnaturally hard to paint Thesp as scummy no matter what, and her logic is reachy as hell.

Like, Thesp's deliberate attempt to undo progress made in the game is far scummier than Firebringer's wishy washiness or defensiveness.

Alchemist is being so nonsense right now that I'd be happy speedlynching this even if it flipped town.

I think everyone will be able to see for themselves you're the nonsensical one here.

I'd also like to remind everyone that RC is currently voting someone she thinks is Town over Thesp, who she said is scummy regardless of Firebringer's flip.

As pointed out, Alch voted first. So it obv isn't omgus. VOTE: netherspite

Oh well he voted first, but they had extended argument before that happened so I still would consider his vote more emotion-based than logic-based.

===

Anyway, latest argument between

RadiantCowbells

and

Firebringer

makes me no longer liking my vote on

Firebringer

. It feels TvT.

I'll move my vote to

eventi

as he looks like an opportunistic scum.

VOTE: eventi

Actually read my posts in that argument then still tell me it wasn't logic-based.

Alchemist's argument for RC being scum is believable from the PoV of someone who's unaware of RC's playstyle, and I think the confidence he has in these posts is most likely genuine. Therefore, Alchemist is probably town.

[TheDominator37]

so all alone the basis of your argument is that alc is to ignorant to be scum?

[Ankamius]

Dom, I have no idea how you managed to get that conclusion from what he just posted.

[Ankamius]

I'm also rapidly realizing that I've been glancing over davesaz's posts every time he's posted since I replaced in and not once have I gotten a town feeling from any of them.

[Ankamius]

Half of me really wants to vote Pistachion for that recent bit, but the other half of me can't think of why it would actually come from scum.

If she's buddying me she was still defending me regardless of when she said I looked strong vs I was doing more scumhunting. It doesn't look like she's using it as a reason to push Thesp or Dom either (well, maybe Thesp to a small extent, but in the context here, I don't really see it).

Either in 2 hours she actually forgot her specific wording or she's purposefully trying to be confrontational with Dom, and the latter reason would be the only one that would mean she's scum.

It's really difficult to see Alchemist as scum after this post.

[Alchemist21]

The way Thesp :highfive: s everyone who agrees with him, and always adds me into every decision is what I find manipulative; I've since moved my vote to TheDominator since I don't think there's anyone else looking at Thesp at all.

Explanation of Thesp from eventi.

Some quick notes

going from memory

.
I can accept correct+reasonable does not imply town.

Will need to re-read Thesp in that light

. But I don't see a wagon being possible today.

Going from memory of that post, I make a note to re-read Thesp.

Taking my own advice, high activity level doesn't imply town (I have been in many games where scum was in the top 5 posters either in terms of #posts or post length).

This prompted me to take a look,

and Thesp's activity is a lot more superficial than I remembered.

VOTE: Thesp

After re-reading Thesp, I don't like his posting and vote him.

So 410 didn't make you reconsider your vote on Eventi? From what I got out of your vote on Eventi, you were voting him because you didn't agree with his reasons for scumreading Thesp.

[Ankamius]

I'm struggling to make sense of the current voting patterns based on my reads. Thesp is more likely town just from the wagon on him and from the fact that I still can't figure out what he did to make him the biggest wagon right now. I can wrap my head around the Alchemist wagon kind of, and it looks like a misdirected town effort.

The problem is that I'm getting a big sense that the Persivul wagon is being scum-resisted, which doesn't feel right with two town wagons that are about as big as it. I could see Thesp being heavily scum-motivated and Alchemist is just being wagoned by town, but I'm really wary of assuming the scumteam would make a risk like this so early on in the game without enough info to support it being likely.

[Ankamius]

Thesp: Can you give your thoughts on the vote spread?

[davesaz]

The way Thesp :highfive: s everyone who agrees with him, and always adds me into every decision is what I find manipulative; I've since moved my vote to TheDominator since I don't think there's anyone else looking at Thesp at all.

Explanation of Thesp from eventi.

Some quick notes

going from memory

.
I can accept correct+reasonable does not imply town.

Will need to re-read Thesp in that light

. But I don't see a wagon being possible today.

Going from memory of that post, I make a note to re-read Thesp.

Taking my own advice, high activity level doesn't imply town (I have been in many games where scum was in the top 5 posters either in terms of #posts or post length).

This prompted me to take a look,

and Thesp's activity is a lot more superficial than I remembered.

VOTE: Thesp

After re-reading Thesp, I don't like his posting and vote him.

So 410 didn't make you reconsider your vote on Eventi? From what I got out of your vote on Eventi, you were voting him because you didn't agree with his reasons for scumreading Thesp.

Read the last sentence in 459. A lynch was needed, whether eventi was less scummy looking from 410 or not. If someone else who I wasn't at least weakly town reading had a decent wagon it might have been an option.

[davesaz]

I'm also rapidly realizing that I've been glancing over davesaz's posts every time he's posted since I replaced in and not once have I gotten a town feeling from any of them.

I'm one of those people who fully understands that we have two ears and one mouth for a reason. If you're looking for brash confrontation or baseless speculation, this would explain why it's missing. If what you're not seeing is something else, it would help me to read you if I knew what your criteria is.

[Thesp]

In reviewing some of my questions earlier, I see Persivul missed or didn't answer several of mine in #762. Wish I'd caught that sooner. Oh well. :/

---

All Alone

, I don't get the feeling you're trying hard in this game, do you have the same feeling about yourself? (I don't mean this as an insult, honest.)

All Alone

, I missed your answer to this question, do you mind responding?

---

I'll admit my D2 play has been shit because I haven't been focused. If you get that impression from my D1 then I don't know what to tell you. Having conflicting reads isn't a reason to scumread me, especially considering which of us was on and which was off the Eventi wagon.

Having conflicting reads can absolutely be a reason to scumread someone, especially if such "reads" turn up to be actually town. At the same time, I hypocritically acknowledge that my biggest pushes yesterday were eventi and TheDominator37, someone we now know to be town, and someone who I now think is town. If that was all it was, I'd probably write you off, but with yesterday's strong pushes on people-I-think-or-are-known-to-be-dead-town, and no strong pushes today (until recently), it absolutely gives me pause.

---

@Thesp, why exactly were you scumreading Eventi? Was it more than the early call-out?

His vote on Netherspite bothered me a lot, and I felt like he was linked to a scum-TheDominator37. I was really hoping for a two-for-one deal - if eventi was scum, TheDominator37 almost certainly was. Nothing eventi ever said later really made me think I was likely to be wrong about him.

---

Thesp: Can you give your thoughts on the vote spread?

As the vote leader, I'm not fond of it. I'd like to sit down and look at the patterns at some point, but in a pinch, here's a snapshot view. I can't get a feel for All Alone at all (and keep coming back to whether that's deliberate or not), and I don't know what to think of davesaz. I'm a bit surprised to have gotten zero traction on my push for Alchemist21, but maybe people are seeing something I'm not (or TheDominator37's presence here scares people off). I think it's time to start consolidating votes, as we're 5 days away from deadline, and I'd rather not deadline lynch again if we can help it.

UNVOTE: Alchemist21
VOTE: Persivul

I can certainly imagine a scenario where scum are resisting a Persivul wagon, and he's felt a bit off to me the whole game. The two people on the Persivul wagon are people I don't have a problem with. (I wish that Persivul wasn't requesting replacement right now, but I understand that life gets in the way sometimes.) I wouldn't mind an All Alone wagon for pressure, but we don't have time for that. I'm not prepared to vote davesaz right now but could be convinced, but I doubt that's happening today. No one else has votes or a realistic chance of a wagon right now.

If you don't have a vote on someone, I'd like to see it move now. Time to get hoppin', peeps.

Similarly, if you're the only one on a candidate, you'd better be pushing hard for your special cupcake lynch, or move somewhere that has a shot of getting a lynch.

[duppin]

Thesp, why are you not prepared to vote davesaz?

[TheDominator37]

@alchemist mind explaining your scum read on fire?

I think Cowbells is right about Fire. He's been pretty dodgy and defensive. I also don't really like the way he backed down from his Cowbells vote because it looked like he just wanted to avoid the trouble.

@RadiantCowbells

You're town and I'll be against your mislynch.
Lets please focus on scumhunting.

@Alchemist21

If

Firebringer

is scum (you classified it as 'may be') why would

RadiantCowbells

vote him and push him?

Early distancing. I'm wondering how likely it is they could be scum together though. If Firebringer is noobscum, I can easily see bantering with a buddy then backing down before things got too serious, but I don't think noobscum are more likely to dodge a buddy's questions. I'll need to see more from Firebringer to know what to make of him.

Suppose Firebringer flips Town. What do you make of Thesp's post in that case?

Still bad for trying to shove us back in RVS.

So you're going to scumread thesp regardless of Firebringer's flip.

Why is All Alone's vote bad?

Because it's a naked vote onto one of my other scumreads right after I FoSed one of the scum.

You are aware scum very frequently RVS each other, yes?

What? It's bad because he voted Thesp after you voted Firebringer? That's crappy reasoning.
Also, someone actually looked into games a while back and found scum don't often RVS each other. The site meta may have shifted a bit because of that thread, but it's certainly not common enough to automatically assume that if someone flips scum their RVS vote is their partner.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

Firebringer may still be scum, but Cowbells is trying unnaturally hard to paint Thesp as scummy no matter what, and her logic is reachy as hell.

@Dominator, care to explain your scumreads?

I may have been scumreading RC partly for playstyle. There are still parts of her early play that don't add up, and I still have a mild scumread on the slot, but I want to engage some other players for a while.

VOTE: Duppin

Where is this guy?

After re-reading ISO's, both Duppin and RC are null for me. Duppin looks like he's going to pick up his activity and lay out his thoughts more, so he should be easier to read as the game progresses. I actually understand some of RC's latest posts, and the more I look over their early play the more I think I misread them for playstyle.

VOTE: Netherspite
The way he's defending RC and pushing Eventi is scummy to me. I normally wouldn't think much of a player defending 1 slot and attacking another, but he's misrepped a couple of times so I'm suspecting scum shennanigans on his part.

I could also vote PMysterious. They voted Eventi for pressure, then later they unvoted without voting another slot, but maintained the eventi and dominator scumreads. That read as trying to softpush the slots while staying off the lynches in my opinion.

I also noticed Pistachion's only vote this whole game was his RVS vote.

@pistachion, could you explain why you haven't made a serious vote?

VOTE: Dominator

When people claim a Slayer's gambit you can see a shift in their play after they reveal they were gambiting. There's no such shift in Dom's ISO, so I'm comfortable putting a vote here.

Through his fist 30 posts this is all the scum hunting he did
Comparable to now

Here's a fun little game. Go through your own ISO and do the same thing.

And I had my reasons for that
What are yours?

[TheDominator37]

Ugh I don't know whether to vote alchemist or these :/

[TheDominator37]

Yeah alch wagon going no where
VOTE: thesp

[RadiantCowbells]

I will do Persi if it comes down to it but I'm really liking my current vote, particularly considering Persi is replacing out.

who's unaware of RC's playstyle,

Which is basically saying that scummy and/or reachy things I can do can be handwaved by "RC playstyle!"?

I wasn't aware that Thesp did that RQS crap 100% of the time and it seemed like a convenient diversion away from a push on his scumbuddy at the time.

[Netherspite]

I'm currently slowly progressing through my game re-read.

So far I strongly disliked

Quaroath

.

However, later I noticed interesting thing:
Here is the

RadiantCowbells

's wagon at its maximal size:

RadiantCowbells (4): Alchemist21, Firebringer, eventi, TheDominator37

As we know,

eventi

and

Firebringer

are town;

TheDominator37

is likely town.

I find it very unlikely that this wagon could form that easily on townie if it was consisting of townies only.
So basically I think that either

RadiantCowbells

or

Alchemist21

should be scum.
However, their interaction early game felt strongly like TvT. Not sure what to make out of it.
Accept such large wagon consisting only of townies to be formed on townie? In this case I have to agree that this game is largely TvT and we probably should start looking for scum among the lurkers.
Will read further tomorrow.

[TheDominator37]

Hint: alchemis

[Thesp]

Thesp, why are you not prepared to vote davesaz?

The last game I was in (online), lurkers won the game. I'm a bit gunshy from it. I need to sit down and see if my unease with davesaz is related (fairly or unfairly) to post quantity of post content. I also need to push on him for some answers, but haven't had the time to do so (and am unlikely to carve out that time this week, sadly). If a great case came up on him that I could analyze, that might make things interesting, but I'm skeptical that one such exists.

---

And I had my reasons for that
What are yours?

What are your reasons for suspicion of me? What do you think of Persivul?

[TheDominator37]

Your push on me and eventi's lynch. And I think ivul is town tbh