Mini 1769: Ice Cream Mafia - Game over!

[Ircher]

Hello, I'm replacin in. I'll try to catch up by the end of Tuesday.

[Ircher]

UNVOTE:

[Ircher]

Let's not lynch until everyone has caught up, pls & ty.

[Ircher]

Let's not lynch until everyone has caught up, pls & ty.

What does lynching have to do with L-1 and a claim exactly?

Also, if people want to be caught up before a lynch, they should get caught up.

Not responding to the top half..

As to the bottom -

YOU CAN'T BE CAUGHT UP WHEN YOU JUST REPLACED IN.

[Ircher]

Whoops, wrong post;

@Mod --)> Could you delete that

Deleted it.

[Ircher]

Spoiler: Mini 1769 Game Notes

1. In post 18, Kein trying to get everyone to lynch GR because he is trying to avoid a vote. -

Ugh.... this guy...... Anyway, I'm taking this as non-alignment-indicative as Kein is new here, but just wanted to point out that the game is still in RVS here, and people tend to fool around in RVS. In other words, GR hasn't done anything worth mentioning yet as he is simply fooling around, etc. -

Null-Indicative

2. In posts 12, 16, 20, 30, 33, and 37, mn expresses a strong scumread on GR. -

Not sure what to say here, but the fact he is unwilling to share about his past meta (26) makes me think this is a mafia slot. Not sure if I'd call it a bus or an attempt on a townie though...... -

Scum-Indicative

3.

As of 39, I get a general town vibe from Keyser. His interrogation of mn seems reasonable and normal from this slot. -

Town-Indicative

4. GR expresses a dislike of Keyser in 52. He states Keyser, not mn is overreacting, and Keyser's dialogue seems forced. -

I must disagree. Also, you state Keyser took mn's comment seriously in RVS. The way I see it, Keyser saw it as a regular RVS thing and was suspicious of Aqua's jump. However, mn's responses made Keyser wonder if mn was actually serious, so Keyser investigated further. (25) Mn responds with 30 to Keyser, so that actually makes me suspect of you as your jump on Keyser seems a bit opportunistic. I am willing to give leeway, as this probably a miscommunication error, so -

Null-Scum Indicative

5. Masq provides a nice summary of what I just said and some in 59. -

Accurate and not warped imo. Personally like the post. -

Null-Town Indicative

6. Personally disagree with my predecessor's Mn townread and Masq scumread in 62.

7. 79 by OceanWind is fairly nice and thought out.

8. Pops votes mn in 98 for being "the most recent post". -

Really, 4 pages in & you don't have time? Why did you join in the first place? The fact you vote mn for a completely random reason (ok, not 100% random) just reads as scum not even trying imo. This does NOT read as too busy town. -

Scum-Indicative

9.

Good points brought up in 101 by Aqua subsequently followed by a well-thought out response by Keyser in 102. -

Town-Indicative for both

10. In 107 by Phoenix, Phoenix tells Keyser that mn is looking for reactions. -

Ah, that gives me a slightly different perspective on mn; I wasn't sure what he was aiming at, but this makes sense. -

Null-Town-Indicative; Reevaluate mn read

11. Lol, I could agree with 135

12.

As of 160, BBT, Massive, and TTH automatically get a slight scumread for not actively trying to participate in the game. Though, I must admit, Massive tends to generally lurk anyway.

13. In 161, Aqua calls Masq out and points out that he hasn't said anything of substance lately -

I mostly concur with that -

Scum-Indicative for Masq

14. 181 is the first time I've seen Keyser react under pressure. He goes on to chainsaw(?) Phoenix. Instead of defending himself, he goes straight in for the knife kill. -

Not sure what to say here. All of us have stress levels/frustration levels and we all respond differently. Keyser generally posts long, analytical posts. This post is rather agitated and has a harsh tone to it on the otherhand. I kinda like his arguments though -- aka, Keyser seems to keep his logical ability even when he's frustrated. -

Null-Indicative; Null-Scum Indicative for Phoenix

15. I honestly didn't notice that GR practically shut down the Kain wagon, but Keyser points this out in 239 after a statement by TTH in 237 -

I remember the last game I played, Mini 1755. This reason was probably the biggest reason why scum got lynched D1 --> we had a nice early wagon going then Raskol comes in and literally derails by claiming we were trying to lynch it and we were at L-1. Anyway, that leads me to this conclusion -

Null-Town Indicative (Keyser, TTH); Scum-Indicative (Golden)

16.

@Kain - (241) You're not a troll. Your simply a VI/Mafiascum newbie.

17. Good analytical post by TTH in 269 -

I must vehemently disagree with the Keyser read though. I see little noise and a lot of scumhunting from the slot. Just my two-cents on the matter. -

Null-Town-Indicative

18. Pops accuses Keyser of trying too hard to contribute & avoiding an alignment indicative discussion (in his 356 referring to 291 -

THIS is the guy we should be lynching; the one who lurks all day and then tries to paint something that completely isn't alignment indicative as alignment indicative. -

Very Scum-Indicative

19. From 440 to 446, BBT finally chimes in & gives his thoughts for...... THE ENTIRE THREAD??????? He also pushes a strong anti-Keyser case. -

This slot's scum, no doubt about of it. You aren't even willing to commit to thread, over 15 pages and you are JUST NOW reading the ENTIRE thread???? Your Keyser case is awful, the first problem being that Keyser has been actively trying to solve the game and scumhunt. His questions and comments all seem to have a genuine purpose bhind them, and Idc if he's wrong --> I learned a few things last game, one of them being your consistent reads are probably what you think they are. -

Almost Confirmed-Scum-Indicative

(Haven't seen Keyser in a few pages though.....)

20.

Also scum-reading Guy Fawkes & Aqua as of 457

21.

Eh, scratch that, I like Pops more for scum as of 484

22. Kein believes there to be two scum in Keyser, Aqua, Ocean (me), and TTH as reaffirmed in 501 -

I can affirm that I am not scum. My guess as far as OceanWind is he either left the site or just couldn't keep up; if you didn't notice, the slot hadn't said asnything in 300+ pages. That should be a clue it's not scum lurking. Keyser is definitely on my town list. And Aqua was great at the beginning, meh in the middle, a bit scummy towards 457, and back to towny as of now. Aka, I'm pretty sure Aqua is town. So, I don't believe in your statement Kein, esp. when you are impossible to read and are constantly OMGUSing players. -

Null-Indicative

23.

502 - Are you referring to Mini 1755? Tbh, you were reading as scum pretty badily early on, but PoE nets you a neutral read.

24. Kein states he finds the Keyser Wagon opportunistic in 530 -

I partially agree with you; not everyone is being opportunistic with the wagon, like yourself, but some people are..... staring at BBT....... -

Null-Indicative for Kein; More Scum-Indicative for BBT

25. To 549:

Bye!

26.

@Kein in 552 - On the contrary, Mafia will tend to bus their partners @ the opportunistic moment. Aka, they get a buddy lynched for towncred. Furthermore, while somewhat uncommon, it is not impossible for town to White-Knight another town player (defend heavily). In fact, an example can be found in D1 of Mini 1755

27. Beat the mod in 564

28. While it's kinda funny with the replace-outs, it's also kinda mean to th mod. In other words, one joke about it is funny, but keep it at that --> Don't make the mod's job more stressful than it is.

29. Thor wants Keyser to claim in 579 -

Much too early for that; also, you JUST replaced in and already want Keyser to claim???????????? Idk about everyone else, but that flat out reads as SCUM-MOTIVATED to me; there is

zero

town motivation to getting a player to claim

when you haven't even caught up yet!

-

Very Scum-Indicatove

30.

In response to 593: I don't like lynches & I don't like the possibility that someone gets hammered before I get my two-cents in. Also, was skimming & didn't really read your post, all I saw was Boon putting in a vote & remembering that Keyser was the top wagon. I didn't care to lookup the vote number, just wanted to make sure people didn't lynch til everyone had a chance to catch up.

31. In 601, Thor wants to know how running up someone to claim is anti-town. -

I can tell you why -- it gives Mafia a confirmed PR to shoot at night. In other words, you 1) Nullified any info gained from possible NKA 2) Just allowed a town PR to get killed before they could even use their ability. Tell me what

isn't

anti-town about that.

Spoiler: Reads

Confirmed Town

(From my perspective) (98%-100% Confidence)
Ircher  (100%) - Role PM
KeinTapes (99%) - He soft-claimed PR and has yet to been CC'd. That means he's conformed town.

Likely Town

(85%-97% Confidence)
Keyser Soze (97%) - I have seen nothing that isn't town-motivated from this slot.

Leaning Town

(60%-84% Confidence)
Aqua (65%) - Pretty decent start, meh middle, then later when engaged with GuyFawkes, I kinda scumread the slot, and later, I started town-reading the slot again.

Null

(0% - 30% Confidence; No/Very Weak Read)
Boonskiies (0%) - Who'd he replace again?
Massive (0%) - Being inactive is unfortunately part of his meta, and the last game I played with him, he provided a bit more content as scum. He doesn't seem to be misleading anyone this game.... actually, it doesn't seem he is doing anything at all right now.....
Phoenix (+10%) - Slight townread at the start of the game, but has diminshed greatly as I don't remember what this slot has done since then.

Neutral

(31%-59% Confidence; Mixed Read)
Slandar (+55%) - Like TTH, I am having a hard time deciding here. Again, I see little manipulation from this slot and active, constructive gameplay, so I lean pretty close to a town-lean.
TellTale Heart (+55%) - Bit hard to make up my mind here, hasn't done anything extremely towny but nor has he done anything extremely scummy. I'm leaning towards a townread here as he has been active & seems to give rationale thought this game.
Golden Robster (-40%) - Mainly PoE; his start was kinda scummy but he has begun to do a bit better.

Leaning Scum

(60%-75% Confidence)
Popsctown (-60%) - I really cannot remember, but there was one part where I got mild scum vibes from this slot.
Thor (-75%) - For just suggesting to running people to L-1 and forcing claims. Mn doesn't help this slot's towniness.

Likely Scum

(76%-100% Confidence)
GuyFawkes (-80%) - Meh start and then went downhill ever since he replaced in.
BBT (-95%) - Massive lurking at the beginning then around 400, I don't remember, starts tunneling Keyser. His tunnel seems to have no genuine basis to it, and seems more like scum desparately aiming for a mislynch.

Our inevitable lynch imho ought to be BBT, but I want to do a bit poking first....
VOTE: Massive - Stop staying under the radar, prod-dodging, and contributing zero info. At least in my last game with you, you actually said stuff of substance from time to time.

Last thing: I do realize that with my strong townread of Keyser and constant and consistent town-reading of Keyser throughout this post will inevitably lead to an association case if Keyser were to flip. Please don't make assumptions until then though.

[Ircher]

Note: Above post (which the mod will hopefully delete) has nothing to do with my role pm for this game or any other game I am in.

[Ircher]

@Thor
Read the post in its entirety

[Ircher]

For association purposes, I am in a way

[Ircher]

Cuz lots of you scumread him for I'm not totally sure why reasons

[Ircher]

Plus the Kein read is based off him claiming PR, so..... I don't think an association case could be made there

[Ircher]

I'll try to catch up later, I got homework

[Ircher]

Spoiler: Mini 1769 - Day 1 Thoughts #2

1. Boon claims Massive always contributes...

10 or so contentless posts...

every game in 631.

The problem is not the lurking, it's the lack of anything substandial in his posts. I saw his scum play in that last game.... His posts actually did have some content to them, but I have to agree about the meta of barely posting.

2. In 632, Boon claims I may be town-tunneling Keyser -

That is definitely a possibility, but I really do feel pretty strong in my townread of Keyser. His wagon seems to be the results of poor reasoning, albeit that might be true of all the current wagons. I will try to keep that in mind.

3. Aqua wants to know why people townread Kein in post 642 -

I already told you why -- He soft-claimed early.

PS: I don't think this lynch will happen; sh!!!

Also, Kein is being Kein. I have learned that meta is actually pretty important when reading players... when I first came here, I was like "Meta doesn't matter....", but that's not true as everyone plays different. Also, the wa a player plays & the way people respond to them tells a lot about their meta -- I haven't read a single game of another user, but I am able to discern the meta of a player fairly quickly. Some people would be harder to read meta-wise though.

4. Keyser does an ISO of BBT in 643 -

I've already expressed that I felt BBT's push/"case" against Keyser was rather weak, opportunistic, and scum-motivated. This ISO reinforces such a read and also identifies a ton of holes in BBT's Keyser'=Scum case.

5. Addressing some points in 646 -

1) Why is the thread review a problem - While I replaced in, and therefore, yesterday was my first opportunity to review the thread, BBT has been in the game since the start, yet by the sound of 1 of his posts, it seemed like he wasn't reading the thread at all. 2) I feel the tunnel by BBT is not only pathetic, but opportunistic and scum-motivated; BBT seems to be pushing a not-well supported, holey case on a slot that a lot of people express mild annoyance/scumreads of.

6. Keyser claims Thor is running people to L-1 without providing his own thoughts in 648. Thor responds with 649 with details on why some of the things Keyser said in 648 are untrue or inaccurate. -

I actually like both for town. Keyser provides a pretty good post explaining his read of Thor, and actually supports it fairly decent. (Actually, it wasn't just the L-1 shenanigans that led to a scumread of Thor -- Masq played a role as does the fact that Thor almost immediately suggests it after replacing in. Thor then points out an inaccuracy in Keyser's post which I like cuz again, he is supporting his claim. In this case, I don't think Keyser was intentionally trying to misrep Thor by stating he didn't provide any thought, I think it has to do with tunnelling & confirmaion bias between the two.

7. To Massive in 650 -

Didn't I explain why? I wanted to know your reads and thoughts which you had yet to share.

8. Pops says something about a scummy replace out in 651 -

I have no idea who you're referring to.

9. Thor states he only encourages deadline lynches as scum in 664. -

I don't have a scum meta yet, but I'm the exact opposite! I actively encourage deadline lynches that way we get as much out of our time as possible.

10.

Good, I'm not the only one who thinks 668 about Keyser. Prove the fundamental argument that Keyser is empty posting, and I will seriously consider joining the wagon. Til then, I think I'm sticking to a BBT wagon.

11. @681 -- I'm OceanWind's replacement. This isn't italics as it's 100% objective.

12. Massive says I'm not catching up in 699 -

Can you freaking read? Show me where I haven't caught up; 5 pages I haven't read cuz of RL that sprung up in the last 24 hrs is def. not alignment-indicative. Still, I think I'd be happy with a neutral to townlean read on you.

13. Keeping 716 in mind.

Ok, my inquiry on Massive is done. I'm getting town vibes there. I think I can upgrade TTH to a townlean and pops is still neutral/scum. I am reconsidering my stance on Thor as Thor vs. Keyser may be TvT (such fights have a habit of being that)

With that said, I still scumread BBT.
VOTE: BBT

Sheep me -- I'm actually providing reasons for my views

[Ircher]

BBT is scum

[Ircher]

Cuz Titus obviously townreads Keyser

[Ircher]

Really, I've already explained it. ISO me and expand the spoilers if you cant tell.

[Ircher]

It's *at least* as good as the Keyser case.

[Ircher]

@Thor join the righteous BBT wagpn. The case is at least as good as the KS case if not much better.

[Ircher]

We can run BBT up to L-1 and force a claim if you stull wanna do that

[Ircher]

@BBT My vote stays til you give us a solid, town-motivated reason to be pushing Keyser, I have seen no town motives from you.

[Ircher]

Also, why am I a counterwagon to KS? Certainly, all the votes except Massive's were left over from OceanWind. I have yet to see anyone put together a case stating I'm scum, so it is rather strange I am still being voted.

Wait, Kein changed his vote, but @Titus -- Why is your vote still on me?

[Ircher]

Ocean was scummy.

I haven't read any of Irchers posts, but still, probably scum.

This was part of my case against you -- On purposely not reading the thread. So, apparently, I'm scum cuz of my predecessor & not only have you not, but you are also unwilling to review my posts cuz I'm scum? That's a logically fallancy actually. Quite frankly, I think we should lynch BBT for stating this, there is ZERO town motive behind this post.

[Ircher]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=ORLYScum

BBT is using this logically fallancy against me.

[Ircher]

Spoiler: Mini 1769 Thoughts - D1 #3

1. Noting that Boonskiies replaced Phoenix (740)

2. Boon expresses a townread of BBT for.... meta reasons(?) in 741. Proceeds to tht "you bumble bees will probably make up reasons to want to push him." -

Show me this "town BBT" read you have. Also, show me where the reasons presented against him have scum-motivation.

3.

I think I'm liking where 746 is headed.... Let's see... The counter against Thor's claim that BBT isn't tunneling is definitely valid.

4. My thoughts on Keyser & Thor - actively trying to scumhunt & get reads - as stated in third section of 748 -

Let's take a step back & review the 2 main cases worth noting: Keyser & BBT

The Keyser case is mainly about the fact that despite Keyser's heavy posting, his posts are empty and don't lead anywhere. A supplementary reason is the number of null reads Keyser has expressed.

The BBT case is mainly about BBT's tunnel on Keyser. Unlike other tunnels, etc. conducted on Keyser, the BBT tunnel seems scum-motivated. A supplementary element of the case is the intense skimming/lack of reading that is being done by BBT.

Now, that was as unbiased as I can I sum it up. So, tell me,

Is there a whole bunch different to the main reason of both cases? I think not. So, why then is the Keyser wagon not equally as great as the BBT wagon?

That's a question from an unbiased perspective. From a biased stance, I'd say the BBT wagon is better supported by the facts.

5. Keyser is using AtE and possibly Appeal to Majority (?) in 749 -

Not necessarily alignment indicative

6.

@Thor in 750

-

Do us all a favor and stop acting like you are omnipotent and omnifiscent -- YOU AREN'T THE GOD OF MAFIA -- And, I am not the only one who feels this way. Keyser obviously does. I'm pretty sure Aqua is getting annoyed by you. As is prob. everyone else in this game.

7. Also

@Thor in regards to 750 -

According to the wiki, tunneling = Confirmation Bias. Whether that is alignment indicative by itself is not important, what is is the underlying motives. Again, just please stop like your a know-it-all & everyone should play mafia YOUR way.

8. @GuyFawkes in 771 about the BBT case at least as good as the Keyser case -

It's all about motive. I will be honest and admit that both cases have some major flaws that no one has really addressed. That's why the comparison is made, based on the objective material, both cases are fairly equal. It's when we add in bias that makes the diff. between my thoughts on BBT versus my thoughts on Keyser. Also, I have town meta with Keyser, so that also affects my view.

9. In 776, BBT states "Prodge" (not a typo). -

That literally sounds like Prod+Dodge combined. Whether it was intention, I'm not sure. But prod-dodging is def. anti-town and possibly scum-motivated.

10.

Massive, you are making zero sense this game. Did you roll scum again, and since you know I am pretty easy to lynch early or pretty easy to lynch late, you're trying to use that to your advantage? What does a counterwagon have to do with my townread of Keyser? Also, you imply one thing in 777: I don't strongly townread Keyser like I say I do. That is false. My townread has been consistent. Start reading and stop bring up reasons that have no logic or evidence behind them to lynch me.

11. 785 - BBT admits he's not reading my spoilered stuff and is solely basing his read of me on his thoughts of my predecessor -

That alone could be a case against BBT -- I see zero town motivation in that post.

Yeah, still want the BBT lynch. Also like how Thor finally shut up -- he was acting as bad town.

[Ircher]

I could see a keyser/ircher scum team. I'm fine with lynching either one

Aside from the pre-flip association case with Keyser, what makes you think I'm scum?

[Ircher]

Keyser, I don't plan on talking you out of anything.

I can't convince scum I'm town. You already know that.

Logically Fallancy -- Lookup "ORLYScum" in wiki

[Ircher]

Keyser, I don't plan on talking you out of anything.

I can't convince scum I'm town. You already know that.

Mm...I believe Ircher's just generally inactive right now. He's a newer player who's just taking a stance.

Inactive?

No, itit's called school.

[Ircher]

I want to hear people's thoughts on Massive. I am not liking how the slot thinks that I am scum when that is 100% pre-flip assoc.

@BBT I like your catchup. It looks a lot better than the other half of your posts. But do me a favor & read those spoilers. That tells you a lot aboyt my current status.

I think I'd be more ok with Massive lynch now, I must admit I am quite impressed with his catchup. Maybe he really didn't have time for the thread, idk. Def. mot same vibe as his earlier posts
VOTE: Massive

[Ircher]

And, @All -- Thoughts on Massive?

[Ircher]

TTH, what are you doing in this game?

Sinking into sadness and apathy.

@TTH What's your Massive Read?

[Ircher]

Spoiler: Mini 1769 - D1 #4

1. I don't think we're convinced on the KS is town idea (ie, those on the wagons), so I'm gonna try to guage some of Keyser's posts to see if they are truly "empty" as the scum-Keyser case claims.

2. Let's start with 809: Keyser is asking KT how he views the other players defending Keyser in terms of his belief that scum will WK scum as losing scum makes scum more likely to lose. -

Tell me what is empty about this post -- Keyser is asking KT a question that basically amounts to a meta question. What I think KS is aiming for here is an answer that will help Keyser better guage Kain's experience, beliefs, and playstyle. The first step to determining if a player is scum is imo learning how they play.

3. Thor suggests in 811 for us to hop onto the Keyser wagon despite having 3 days left. -

Confirmation bias? Definitely. Scum? Probably not. Bad Town? High chance. @Thor -- Stop with your petty little arguments/tunnel on Keyser and start giving your thoughts on other players; in fact, I have no idea where you stand on people such as myself, Boon, pops, and GuyFawkes cuz you're so focused on Keyser.

4. 815 - Keyser once again askes Thor for his stance on BBT. -

Again, this isn't empty posting. Keyser is directly reasking a question Thor has decided to ignore in his *self-righteousness* - Keyser goal in asking this question is trying to guage Thor's reads on everyone besides Keyser. Knowing other people's reads and thoughts is a truly tremendous help in deciphering the puzzle; aka, Keyser is asking for utmost important info.

5. Pops says in 821 that only Keyser seems to be enjoying the game. -

While almost certainly a joke like your replace out joke, it feels a bit... weird to say. Also, who's to say the rest of us aren't having fun?

6. 822 and 823 have no impact on the game, so certainly they must be empty posts! -

Nah, wouldn't call that empty posting but more like having fun.

7. 833 - BBT states "can't convince scum I'm town" -

This employs two logical fallancies: ORLYScum and Confirmation Bias. First, let's discuss confirmation bias -- it's when you express a strong read on a person generally without unbiased facts to back it up. You also conduct your tunnel at the ignorance of everything else. Then, let's discuss ORLYScum which is when you disregard what a oerson simply because they're scum. This is a logical fallancy, as you are using your subjective view to try to discredit your target's thoughts regadless of the validity of any claims. Neither of these are neccessary alignment-indicative by themselves though.

10. Let's take 840 as another example. -

So this is a quote response, so my numbers correspond with the quotes in order:

1. BBT states he'll just give his thoughts. - Keyser responds "Deal" as in he's ok ith that. Unlike... let's see...

Thor

, Keyser understands that sometimes you must compromise. Anyway, I think this is what Keyser and all of us on BBT's wagon wanted in the first place -- For BBT to express his thoughts this game aside from his fairly poorly supported Keyser scumread.

2. Thor has suggested Keyser isn't reading, and Keyser responds by stating he is, and the perceived not reading is simply disagreeing -- Not empty posting, this is Keyser offering another outlook on the situation to Thor (who cannot seem to understand that Mafia is a.... TEAM GAME....). This is def. what I thought when Thor made that comment.

3. No comment

4. Keyser points out that Thor keeps saying he scumreads Keyser, yet has yet to provide a logical reason why. I'll let you be the judge on this one, but my opinion is it's a completely fair argument.

5. Keyser explains his perspective on issues and why he thinks people should express their reads. - Again, Keyser is actively trying to get input from the rest of you, so he can discern people's stances better. Keyser is also admitting that he COULD BE WRONG (*stares at Thor*) and that's why he wants to hear other people's opinions. That's town-motivated imo.

6. Another fun/joke comment. Aka, non alignment indicative.

11. Boon apparently is leaning towards scum-Ircher in 844 -

I am interested in hearing what the case against me is,

excluding any and all pre-flip associations with Keyser

12. Boon says I sheeped everywhere in Mini 1755 in 849 -

Not true! I spent a good amount of time D5 making my opinions as well as D1 and the start of D2. Doing note posts and IO reads are not sheeping. But, if you are gonna meta-dive me, check my wiki page.

13. 852 - Main argument from Thor's POV regarding my lynch is *pre-flip association with Keyser* -

My two-cents -- For one who is normally found as an easy ML by scum, I'm not feeling it this game. I just don't get why people are even toying with the possibility of scum Ircher when there is only pre-flip association case to look at.

14. 853 by Thor states Keyser isn't reading and is merely posting about game theory. -

That's one heck of a tunnel you got going there. Just like Boonskiies tunnel of me in Mini 1755. Guess what -- we were both town. Stop with your stupid Keyser tunnel!

15. In 854, Keyser is giving his opinion on our lynch possibilities & is asking when a roleclaim should occur. -

Again, I see town-Keyser trying to work things out with town & trying to get stuff done AS A TEAM. I don't see scum Keyser making an empty post about wagons.

[Ircher]

You won't leave me alive that long and we both know that.

If I catch you, it has to be D1.

I'm glad we both agree that Guy is scum though, that's certainly a direction I'm looking at going in.

I wouldn't have a problem with a GF lynch....

Perhaps we should lynch GF today -- I think you (collectively) need another day to sort out Keyser.

[Ircher]

The scum team is obviously: GuyFawkes, Titus, Massive

[Ircher]

Perhaps we should lynch GF today -- I think

you

(collectively) need another day to sort out Keyser.

I hate the use of you here.

You are not a part of the collective?

I've already sorted Keyser; originally was going to write "we" though

[Ircher]

I want to hear people's thoughts on Massive. I am not liking how the slot thinks that I am scum when that is 100% pre-flip assoc.

@BBT I like your catchup. It looks a lot better than the other half of your posts. But do me a favor & read those spoilers. That tells you a lot aboyt my current status.

I think I'd be more ok with Massive lynch now, I must admit I am quite impressed with his catchup. Maybe he really didn't have time for the thread, idk. Def. mot same vibe as his earlier posts
VOTE: Massive

Ircher, what did you like about BBT's catchup?

Early he was poorly backing up his reads. It fekt opportunisric. Now, BBT has finished reviewing the thread and is seeming to form more logical posts. Furthermore, he isn't participating in narrow tunnels, but rather, is being open to suggestions.

[Ircher]

VOTE: GuyFawkes

[Ircher]

Bbt & KS = town
Thor is badtown
You're newbtown & claimed soft pr
Aqua is town
TTH Is town
Slandar is likely town
Boon just boon
pops is town lean
That leaves GF massive & titus

[Ircher]

Nah, give Boon a day

[Ircher]

we have 1 day left, nobody will listen to me about AQUANIM,, so where should I put my vote??? I have no other strong reads so you guys help me DECIDE.... its not good to NO LYNCH so I will join

GuyFawkes

[Ircher]

I am now suspect of Boon for his posts this page

[Ircher]

@Thor
Tell me why you are being antitown to KS.

[Ircher]

GuyFawkes - Masq was meg, GF has low activity & isn't engaged in the game, and KS is town. Those are the main arguments I believe.

I actually think Aqua will be nk'd.

[Ircher]

I am now suspect of Boon for his posts this page

You're 'suspect' because I am fucking trying to push the wagon that I have been voting for A LONG TIME now? Seriously? What the fuck is scummy about that? What the fuck is scummy about me actually fucking giving my fucking input? You guys fucking beg for me to actually say something, and here I am. Saying what I think is happening.

@Keyser - I don't give a fuck if you are town reading Thor; that's not what I was saying. At all. So nice misrep of me. Thor and myself are both people pushing your wagon, so by you misrepping us there, you are pulling attention away from your wagon, which isn't a bad thing on your part. It's great scum play. Nonetheless, scum play.

Stop with the confirmation bias & ORLYScum logical fallancies, its getting obnoxious

[Ircher]

One plus one plus one equals fucking three. FFS. Had enough of your fucking errors. How difficult is it? Now have your fucking ice cream.

How old are you?

He's right though -- 1+1+1 = 3, and even if you counted KS as zero, 1+1 still equals two.

As far as the reaction to the error though, I'm thinking it was prob. a typo, so this is a bit of an overreaction from KS. Yet at the same time, when Ks deals with idiots like you, I can easily understand the frustration.

[Ircher]

Like I told you last game, stop thinking scum Keyser & think about the Town Keyser possibility.

It's conf bias when you disputevp everything they state simply because you believe that their scum, even if they were to flip town.

[Ircher]

Vig Shot: Ircher

Done with that.

I'm the last person town would want to shoot, but I doubt there is a dayvig (poor Kein)

I'm not interested in your lynch, yet, but you are sorely tempting me.

[Ircher]

Its fake. Dayvig isn't normal.

[Ircher]

That's not conf bias. Conf bias doesn't apply when referring to oneself.

[Ircher]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=ORLYScum

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... Repetition

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... ation_Bias

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... ssociation

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Red_Herring

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Straw_Man

[Ircher]

Age is somewhat private info, and asking for it in this context is the same as insulting a player

[Ircher]

@Kain - I'm willing to work with you this game. Wasn't really earlier, but I'm starting to town read you, and I expect both of us to be in this game for the long run due to easy seeming potential mislynches.
Understand that we absolutely don't want a no lynch. We have a day left. No lynch denies town information, and does nothing but help scum have more confusion. Keyser is the optimal lynch even if he isn't one of your main scum reads. Unfortunately, bar some major slip, your main scum reads aren't going to be able to pick up steam for their lynch in a day and a half. Guy getting lynched would give us near to no information besides if he's town, Keyser's definitely scum. If we lynch Keyser, and he flips scum, that gives Guy major townie points unless we think Keyser would bus this hard (he wouldn't, not in this way.) With a Keyser lynch, we get TONS OF INFORMATION, even if he ends up flipping town. Guy has a lesser chance of being scum, and will bring us near to no info. Vote Keyser with us.

I disagree with the next to last statement

[Ircher]

No lynching til I have time to analyze the last few pages

[Ircher]

well, I'm not scum. You are. I am 100% positive I won't be getting lynched this game. I don't follow the site's norm, so...i'm not basing it off that. It's that you really don't do anything or even really defend yourself besides 'mm...i think you are scum!!!! oh, think again about me being not scum...' yeah....

That's just what you and your freaking tunnel vision.

If you really reconsidered what other people thought about me, you may look at this in a different light. But you and your god-awful tunnel vision doesn't let you see anything except scum in me.

If you have a perspective that is so biased, then you will only see biased results.

[Ircher]

@Thor
Tell me why you are being antitown to KS.

Other than the last comment I made to him, which I suppose could be taken as anti-town though I question why you then wouldn't ask why he's being anti-town to me, I don't think I'm being anti-town to him at all.

The last spate of misrepping, cussing, and insanity was just so over the top I reacted with laughter and felt the need to poke him with a stick to amuse myself (I had to either be amused or annoyed, and opted for amused).
You are noticing how he's kind of randomly rage spewing at me while making up/over blowing things, right? Boon noticed it - don't you? I mean, it'd be easy to prove as he's just going nutzo on it, so you must see it. I disagree with Boon in thinking it's scummy, but it is really weird and distracting, and I am not encouraging it in 19 of my last 20 posts, so...why do you think I'm the one causing the fervor? Like, outside of the age post what non-game relevant dig have I done o him in like the past 48 hours?

Because there is a vast array of them he's done to me.
So why do you think I'm the issue here - specifically?

How old are you?

You creepy Smurf. Can we please leave race/age/gender out of discussion. Let's just play the game. Share your reads please.

My bad, I thought when you cussed me out and called me stupid multiple times I was allowed to joke back at you - if we're taking this all seriously then you owe me a lot of apologies.

Read my spoilers. KS is acting somewhat less amicable to you, but its your antitown play that has caused this. I badtown read you.

[Ircher]

No lynching til I have time to analyze the last few pages

Keyser is in the lead, and he's at L-2, methinks you have some time yet.
Did you think he was at L-1 already?

I can count, ty vm

[Ircher]

@Kain - We're the kind of players scum wants to get people to sheep them on and get lynches on. We generally won't be NK'd until we have to be. I generally am NK'd around Night 4 in all of my games.

Or maybe its cuz yall are idiots / easier to mislynch. That's normally the case for me too, but I'm actually somewhat worried about being nk'd this time.

[Ircher]

TTH, but only in a scum flip

[Ircher]

@Thor - Refusing to provide reads when asked, suggesting to run people to l-1 & force an unneccessary claim, being inhospitable to the game, and being stuck in your arrogant, thinks he is a god behavior.

[Ircher]

No lynching til I have time to analyze the last few pages

Keyser is in the lead, and he's at L-2, methinks you have some time yet.
Did you think he was at L-1 already?

I can count, ty vm

Were you expecting two people to hop on very quickly in the next few hours?

It is a possibility; again, I abs. hate lynches that don't go til deadline

[Ircher]

well, I'm not scum. You are. I am 100% positive I won't be getting lynched this game. I don't follow the site's norm, so...i'm not basing it off that. It's that you really don't do anything or even really defend yourself besides 'mm...i think you are scum!!!! oh, think again about me being not scum...' yeah....

That's just what you and your freaking tunnel vision.

If you really reconsidered what other people thought about me, you may look at this in a different light. But you and your god-awful tunnel vision doesn't let you see anything except scum in me.

If you have a perspective that is so biased, then you will only see biased results.

[Ircher]

If KS flips town, @Boon, who'd you lynch?

[Ircher]

@BBT - This is SUPER reminiscent of the Doctor Pepper game Day 1.

LOL, actually, if that were the case, that would make Ircher scum based on the standings of everyone!

(No, I am not using that as an actual thing, I just found it funny.)

I know you're joking, but care to explain?

[Ircher]

If he flips scum, I'm going for Ircher/pop.

Pop's the safer bet. Again, the main case against me is an association case. I dont think one should lynch pn that alone

[Ircher]

This is..... crazy....
The mod's the SK hiding in the backgrounf, let's lynch him!
UNVOTE: GuyFawkes
VOTE: Sir Cakez

[Ircher]

Keyword is alone.

Alright Thor, maybe I am conf. bias you on antitown play. We can at least agree that its mainly Keyser you have problems with, right?

Also, I am requesting a readlist from you, as well as everyone else

[Ircher]

Why do you like voting MOD, Ircher??

Cuz its fun.

[Ircher]

Ty, that's what I wanted -- That's why I like readlists -- They are compact and exhibit your current stance in a single post, so people don't have to go searching for it, and generally coming to wrong conclusions

[Ircher]

olol, Mod totally ignored my vote of him

Votes for the mod don't count :p

[Ircher]

I don't want to have to find your reads; aka, they save time in getting a general feel for a player's stance.

[Ircher]

Who'd you lynch if KS scum and if KS town?

[Ircher]

Ircher --> Derived from Archer, so I don't mind too much

[Ircher]

If Guy is scum, Archer is likely a partner.

Unvote of Guy near deadline, pushing nothing. Huge red flag.

So, you're saying the scum team is Keyser, Ircher, and Guy? That doesn't sound right....

[Ircher]

Spoiler: Mini 1769 - D1 #5

1. Kein gives reasons for his scumreads of Aqua and TTH in 979 -

I would like some posts supporting your reads, aka evidence. Not neccessarily saying they're wrong, just saying I don't get those vibes.

2. In 998 Keyser overreacts to Thor's error in 991 (as he later corrects in 993 -

This is the first post from Keyser that really makes me think scummy/opportunistic. I still believe in Keyser-town as Thor & Keyser are probably TvTing, but I don't like how Keyser, even after Thor explains his error, assumes Thor made the error on purpose.

3. Titus basically plans to lurk then hammer when he gets the chance as indicated by 1022 because he replaced two days before deadline & thinks he cannot catchup/get the votes on time. -

Excuses, excuses, excuses! If you tried to catch up when you replaced in, then you'd be caught up by now.

4. Let's look at 1008, the mod's VC. Here, we have two major wagons: Keyser (Thor, Guy, BBT, Boon) and Guy (Keyser, Ircher, TTH, pops). Titus, Massive, Kein, Aqua, and Slandar are voting elsewhere. -

VCA: Prob. 1 scum out of each group - Thor,

Guy

, BBT,

Boon

; Keyser, Ircher,

TTH

,

Pops

;

Titus

,

Massive

, Kein, Aqua, Slandar

5. Boon suggests that Keyser is misrepping Thor -

I think they're both misrepping each other & generally not considering each other's thoughts. I would actually take it as TvT tbh.

This was shorter than expected.

Right now:

Spoiler: Reads

Confirmed Town

(From my perspective) (98%-100% Confidence)
OceanWind/Ircher  (100%) - Role PM
Kein (99%) - Soft-claimed PR; nuff said.

Likely Town

(85%-97% Confidence)
Keyser (96%) - Not much has changed here. If anything, I am expressing a very slight paranoia of this slot.
Thor (92%) - TvT with Keyser. Seems to be actively trying to help town, even if he is aggravating while doing so. Might also be exhibiting some anti-town/bad townplay, but it is also possible that that is a biased view based off my read of Keyser.
BBT (89%) - Original read mainly based off his lack of effort in the game & opportunistic vibe. Beginning to think he may have just been busy then, as his catchup has a much more towny vibe to it.

Leaning Town

(60%-84% Confidence)
Aqua (83%) - Lately has not ben contributing much, but overall, I like the way he views things. His posts seem thought out and not opportunistic.
TTH (75%) - Haven't seen enough from here lately, but again, seeing active gameplay that is trying to help town & also scumhunting. Unlike some of us, he also seems to exhibit a more outsider view on things, so it is easier to believe that what he thinks is truly based on facts. VCA would weaken this read somewhat, but I'll stick with town for now.
Slandaar (60%) - Active and shares rationale thought.

Null

(0% - 30% Confidence; No/Very Weak Read)

Neutral

(31%-59% Confidence; Mixed Read)
Phoenix/Boon (-40%) - VCA suggests he may be scum. I would give this slot anotjer day; Phoenix was meh, and Boon hasn't done anything that really sticks out to me.
Pops (-45%) - Mainly has to do with my VCA - he seems to be the one who is most likely scum on the Guy wagon. Also, he doesn't seem to be doing a lot of scumhunting, but he's better than some people.

Leaning Scum

(60%-75% Confidence)
Massive (-65%) - Lurktastic per usual. Would like to know what this slot's thoughts are currently, aside from myself & Keyser.

Likely Scum

(76%-100% Confidence)
Masq/GuyFawkes (-83%) - Sparse ISO, hasn't contributed much of value. Masq was meh though slightly leaning towards the scum side of stuff. VCA also suggests that he is very likely scum.
Mn/Titus (-85%) - Apathetic to who to lynch, has yet to catch up, and overall, while I was starting townread the mn slot, his replace in has completely flipped my read of that slot. He's also not on either wagon; VCA suggests there's two on the major wagons & 1 off; he's very likely the one off.

Let's lynch Guy today.
VOTE: GuyFawkes

[Ircher]

Spoiler: Mini 1769 - D1 #5

1. Kein gives reasons for his scumreads of Aqua and TTH in 979 -

I would like some posts supporting your reads, aka evidence. Not neccessarily saying they're wrong, just saying I don't get those vibes.

2. In 998 Keyser overreacts to Thor's error in 991 (as he later corrects in 993 -

This is the first post from Keyser that really makes me think scummy/opportunistic. I still believe in Keyser-town as Thor & Keyser are probably TvTing, but I don't like how Keyser, even after Thor explains his error, assumes Thor made the error on purpose.

3. Titus basically plans to lurk then hammer when he gets the chance as indicated by 1022 because he replaced two days before deadline & thinks he cannot catchup/get the votes on time. -

Excuses, excuses, excuses! If you tried to catch up when you replaced in, then you'd be caught up by now.

4. Let's look at 1008, the mod's VC. Here, we have two major wagons: Keyser (Thor, Guy, BBT, Boon) and Guy (Keyser, Ircher, TTH, pops). Titus, Massive, Kein, Aqua, and Slandar are voting elsewhere. -

VCA: Prob. 1 scum out of each group - Thor,

Guy

, BBT,

Boon

; Keyser, Ircher,

TTH

,

Pops

;

Titus

,

Massive

, Kein, Aqua, Slandar

5. Boon suggests that Keyser is misrepping Thor -

I think they're both misrepping each other & generally not considering each other's thoughts. I would actually take it as TvT tbh.

This was shorter than expected.

Right now:

Spoiler: Reads

Confirmed Town

(From my perspective) (98%-100% Confidence)
OceanWind/Ircher  (100%) - Role PM
Kein (99%) - Soft-claimed PR; nuff said.

Likely Town

(85%-97% Confidence)
Keyser (96%) - Not much has changed here. If anything, I am expressing a very slight paranoia of this slot.
Mn/Thor (92%) - TvT with Keyser. Seems to be actively trying to help town, even if he is aggravating while doing so. Might also be exhibiting some anti-town/bad townplay, but it is also possible that that is a biased view based off my read of Keyser. Mn was okay, and I was starting to townread him
BBT (89%) - Original read mainly based off his lack of effort in the game & opportunistic vibe. Beginning to think he may have just been busy then, as his catchup has a much more towny vibe to it.

Leaning Town

(60%-84% Confidence)
Aqua (83%) - Lately has not ben contributing much, but overall, I like the way he views things. His posts seem thought out and not opportunistic.
TTH (75%) - Haven't seen enough from here lately, but again, seeing active gameplay that is trying to help town & also scumhunting. Unlike some of us, he also seems to exhibit a more outsider view on things, so it is easier to believe that what he thinks is truly based on facts. VCA would weaken this read somewhat, but I'll stick with town for now.
Slandaar (60%) - Active and shares rationale thought.

Null

(0% - 30% Confidence; No/Very Weak Read)

Neutral

(31%-59% Confidence; Mixed Read)
Phoenix/Boon (-40%) - VCA suggests he may be scum. I would give this slot anotjer day; Phoenix was meh, and Boon hasn't done anything that really sticks out to me.
Pops (-45%) - Mainly has to do with my VCA - he seems to be the one who is most likely scum on the Guy wagon. Also, he doesn't seem to be doing a lot of scumhunting, but he's better than some people.

Leaning Scum

(60%-75% Confidence)
Massive (-65%) - Lurktastic per usual. Would like to know what this slot's thoughts are currently, aside from myself & Keyser.

Likely Scum

(76%-100% Confidence)
Masq/GuyFawkes (-83%) - Sparse ISO, hasn't contributed much of value. Masq was meh though slightly leaning towards the scum side of stuff. VCA also suggests that he is very likely scum.
Gr/Titus (-85%) - Apathetic to who to lynch, has yet to catch up, and overall, while I was starting townread the GR (that didn't change, that was the same for both actually) slot, his replace in has completely flipped my read of that slot. He's also not on either wagon; VCA suggests there's two on the major wagons & 1 off; he's very likely the one off.

Let's lynch Guy today.
VOTE: GuyFawkes

EBWOP
@Aqua - Whoops, thanks! Didn't really change much though

[Ircher]

If Guy is scum, Archer is likely a partner.

Unvote of Guy near deadline, pushing nothing. Huge red flag.

WTF is archer?

Ircher is scum with keyser. He's just prepping for a late bus

If we had all the time in the world, would you go for an Ircher wagon?

yup

Yes, pls explain

[Ircher]

Your still avoiding the question

Why am I scum aside from the associative cases?

[Ircher]

@Aqua

- If it wouldn't be too much trouble, could I have a readlist, so I know where everyone is currently standing?

Actually, I want one from everyone who hasn't provided one in the last 2 days,p,

[Ircher]

That's an associative case. Why would you lynch me before Guy?

[Ircher]

Yeah, BBT did disappear again, but I'm willing to sort it out tommorrow.
Thanks for the meta tip on Titus.

I notice you're voting BBT right now, since deadline is approaching, would it be okay for you to join the Guy wagon? Keyser's at L-2 and Guy is currently at L-3, so I don't think adding your vote to Guy would be a problem.

[Ircher]

Eh, let's not lynch quite yet.

I want to hear Slandaar's thoughts first. Also, Titus says he's basically hammering whatever wagon, so
UNVOTE: Guy

That's my deadline vote though

[Ircher]

VOTE: GuyFawkes

[Ircher]

@Titus -- You can hammer Guy

[Ircher]

Who'd you lynch if KS scum and if KS town?

I've already answered who I'd lynch if he flips scum, in fact I have discussed it multiple times.
If he flips town I'd probably want to lynch someone who voted him, can't make a value call on that until the imaginary wagon happens.

That the Guy wagon has catapulted into the lead as a lurker compromise doesn't exactly fill me with sunshine and buttercups towards Keyser's slot though, especialy with the wagon flow of Thor -> Titus -> Guy that happened, all while Keyser is sitting there. To my mind when multiple flail alternate wagons are happening, my immediate thought is - why aren't scum hopping on/already sitting on the strong one. Okay, maybe two scum are already voting Keyser and the town is just running around like a chicken with its head cut off because it senses a bad wagon...but I don't really feel that narrative here.

@Aquanim
@Ircher

Both of you are noting Slandaar as town(ish) and at least Ircher noted him for strength of contributions. Are we reading the same slot? He's literally done nothing today. Yeah, he's "commented" but he hasn't offered stances or serious votes, and both of you have whined about me not offering stances clearly enough, and I'm offering 100% more than he is, so...what the hell, what magical crack is he feeding you to make what he's doing okay? I don't scum read the slot, but to have anything other than null for him seems insane. What am I missing here?

I think you misinterpret me when I ask things from you. Your stance is somewhat clear, but I like it all neat and concise in a single post for future reference

[Ircher]

Again, its his more outward perspective. Too many of us are caught in conf bias

[Ircher]

The other part about whining about your stance I already implicitly covered

[Ircher]

I think he has offered some reads, like his Keyser reads.

It really depends on the sit. though. Sometimes, no or weak reads is town, other times it can be scummy. In this case, I think it is town motivated

[Ircher]

Ircher vote Keysor. Thanks to Boonskiies outburst I really don't want to vote Guy.

I refuse, I'm not lynching Keyser

I think I am going to put at the top of my list for lynching tommorrow

[Ircher]

How should A random outburst from Boon based on meta reasons hard defending Guy make you not want to lynch Guy?

[Ircher]

Get

The hell

Off of Guy.

Why does this make you NOT want to lynch Guy?

[Ircher]

Either kynch Guy or I'm pressing an associative case against you, regardless of flip of Guy

[Ircher]

Alright, someone hammer massive.

[Ircher]

I mean gpGuy, lol

[Ircher]

& Titus is obvscum

If Guy flips town -- Distancing from a lynch he knows will flip town
Guy Scum -- Last attempt to save scum buddy

[Ircher]

With whom?

[Ircher]

You're just now telling us this, I don't believe you right now

[Ircher]

Ugggh....
I know exactly who Massive is voting.....

I don't like this situ

[Ircher]

Is he a mason with you?

[Ircher]

If you don't like it, you should stop voting the mason.

I don't believe you right now

[Ircher]

Cuz, that!0's the only logical explanation

[Ircher]

But you're scum here. Pretty obvious when you flailed about the associative case I suggested which had a faulty premise.

conf bias; Look at Micro 590

[Ircher]

@Thor, @Slandaar

- Do you believe Titus's claim that Guy is a mason?

[Ircher]

If I were scum, I'd shoot Aqua, tyvm

[Ircher]

Alright, if KS & Thor believe in its validity, then I shall assume it is valid for now

UNVOTE: Guy
So, its basically no lynch or Keyser now? I want no lynch in that case

[Ircher]

Like I said, not opposed to hammering Keysor but much more confident in Ircher. I am hoping to draw the town from Guy's wagon to Ircher or Keysor but preferably Ircher.

Why?

All you've given is an association case amd flailing.

The former requires a flip abpnd the latter is not neccessarily alignment indicative; look at Micro 590 if you don't believe that town can flail / react poorly too.

[Ircher]

Let's see...

Thor, Titus, Guy, Massive

You still need 3 more votes to lynch me. I would recommend making a substandial case btw

VOTE: No Lynch - Not lynching Keyser, & if Guy is a mason, then Titus is prob town. So my next choices would be Pops & Boon, possibly TTH. None of whom are gonna be lynched today.

[Ircher]

I cannot see Keysor as scum without Ircher. I think Keysor's town butvI can't rule out the possibility given Ircher and Keysor refuse to vote each other for ridiculous reasons and Ircher trying to argue I am scum for revealing Guy is a mason.

I just strongly think it's Ircher Slandaar with a strong shot of pops being the third (but I don't feel confident enough in pop scum to want to lynch there).

Also, when did the Slandaar case come up. I never saw you attack Aqua for townreading Slandaar, so why me?

[Ircher]

Then you better make your case clearer

[Ircher]

And his case against me?

[Ircher]

Your unvote of Guy was pretty bad too.

You do realize that no matter what I did at that point, you could paint it as scummy.

[Ircher]

It'll get made if 1) Keysor flips town or 2) I am alive tomorrow. Not exactly freaking out about it.

You're pretty transparently going through the obvscum playbook (refusing to vote VT at deadline), trying to lynch mason, why me fry me flail, etc etc.

This case is poor

1. Why should I vote a VT?
2. I did not say I was tryong to lynch mason. I merely said I thought you were lying. Huge difference.
3. I refer you to Micro 590. Not alignment indicative.

[Ircher]

Actually, pls explain how NOT voting a town player at deadline is obvscum play?

[Ircher]

well, I'm not scum. You are. I am 100% positive I won't be getting lynched this game. I don't follow the site's norm, so...i'm not basing it off that. It's that you really don't do anything or even really defend yourself besides 'mm...i think you are scum!!!! oh, think again about me being not scum...' yeah....

That's just what you and your freaking tunnel vision.

If you really reconsidered what other people thought about me, you may look at this in a different light. But you and your god-awful tunnel vision doesn't let you see anything except scum in me.

If you have a perspective that is so biased, then you will only see biased results.

[Ircher]

Alright, if KS & Thor believe in its validity, then I shall assume it is valid for now

UNVOTE: Guy
So, its basically no lynch or Keyser now? I want no lynch in that case

You 100% DO NOT no lynch. Lynching a VT that isn't confirmed and get INFORMATION!!!!! is 100% better than no lynching. No lynching helps nothing but scum. This is the scummiest thing you've said this game, holy crap. Lynching keyser will incriminate you and that is why you won't go there.

Exactly

Basically, I'm stuck regardless what I do.

If I vote Keyser, I get accused of backing away from my townread / trying to garner towncred
If I don't vote Keyser, then I get accused of distancing myself from the Keyser lynch.

I can't vote Guy, as the mason claim is a possibility

And there's no other wagon that is going to be big enough by deadline

So, for me, as town, the best action is to no lynch. For me, as scum, the best action is to either bus keyser if keyser is scum or to vote Keyser anyway.

Your eval of the situ holds no weight, as regardless of my action, someone (scum) is going to paint it as scummy, and I will get mislynched for it later down the road.

[Ircher]

It'll get made if 1) Keysor flips town or 2) I am alive tomorrow. Not exactly freaking out about it.

You're pretty transparently going through the obvscum playbook (refusing to vote VT at deadline), trying to lynch mason, why me fry me flail, etc etc.

This case is poor

1. Why should I vote a VT?
2. I did not say I was tryong to lynch mason. I merely said I thought you were lying. Huge difference.
3. I refer you to Micro 590. Not alignment indicative.

1. You should vote a VT claim because it's better than no lynching unless a) you're scum and know that Keysor is town or b) Keysor is your partner.
2. Bullshit. You were trying to lynch Guy and insinuated that I'd make up my feelings to do it.
3. Refer me to whatever you want. Why me? Fry me. Wins.
4. Unvote and revote on guy is pathetic.

1. What about the fact that I'm town and express a consistent 97% townread on Keyser. Should I ditch that read just cuz "welp, its deadline & the other guy got confirmed as towm"?
2. You claimed that Guy was a Mason. I questioned the validity of the claim, as you have been spewing whatever you want this game. The fact that I asked two people ON THE OPPOSITE WAGON their views of the claim should tip you that I was questioning myself & felt there could be some weight to your claim. Regardless of what I said then, it should be evident that there was some hesitation in what I said.
3. Okay, I'll describe it for you. In Micro 590, I was a Heroic Town Rolecop. One of my first posts in the game was a RVS vote about a fake dayvig shot. That guy, Fire Starter, jumps on me since we were apparently out of RVS. I apparently overreacted to him, and regardless of what I said from then til my lynch, they could not think of any possibility except I was scum who was flailing. Point being, flailing isn't always scum indicative. Esp. when it hardly counts as flailing as it did there and as it does now.
4. Metadive me. You implicitly stated an intent to hammer. I didn't want to lynch quite yet, and Guy was at L-1. I unvoted so other could respond. I revote the next day because I was pretty sure Guy was scum at that pooint and there didn't seem to be any point in waiting any longer.

Pedit - I dare you to metadive me.

[Ircher]

Ircher, the problem here is that you're more concerned with your perception than what is right for town.

You put a vote while saying it's for deadline purposes.

But you're concerned about how you're perceived more than the result.

Depends on player meta. In my case, not alignment indicative

[Ircher]

And, I'm not lynching a 97% townread of mine; that's stupid

[Ircher]

It's obvious to me. Hence, 97%. Anything higher is a conf town read for me.

[Ircher]

Also, @Hypocrite
Why are you voting me if you think I should vote KS? A wagon is unlikely to form this close to deadline. And if it did, I would FoS everyone on it.

[Ircher]

VOTE: Titus

OMGUS reasons comprise part of it

[Ircher]

98-99% is a roleclaim I believe; 100% is things directly confirmed by mod like myself & innocent childs

[Ircher]

97% is the highest confidence I can have in a townread without something to verify (ie Cop result, Mod explicit confirm, non cc roleclaim that's believable)

[Ircher]

You are a scumread. Also, you never confirmed you were a mason with Guy....

[Ircher]

Titus, what makes you think I'm a mason?

I don't think it's wise to answer that. You know why.

So,

Either:

2 Scum
Titus/Guy Masons
Boon/Guy Masons

[Ircher]

Oh, I forgot:

Titus Scum/Guy VT

[Ircher]

VOTE: Ircher
VOTE: TitusVOTE: Titus

[Ircher]

VOTE: Titus

For good measure

[Ircher]

You are a scumread. Also, you never confirmed you were a mason with Guy....

I don't answer questions from rolefishing scum darling.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=ORLYScum

[Ircher]

@Guy
If we lynch Keyser today, then would you be willing to lynch Titus tomorrow? Or at least taking a second/third look at him?

[Ircher]

How is THAT pr fishing????

[Ircher]

This isn't just a tunnel or strong read; this is manipulative scum.

[Ircher]

VOTE: Titus

Manipulative scum

[Ircher]

Ugh... I'm gonna get framed by scum when they choose their nk.

@Titus - If your town, STOP YOUR ANTITOWN TUNNEL ON ME!!
If your scum -- Well played

[Ircher]

Though, of I get lynched, that makes Titus look really bad

[Ircher]

Ok, I'm leaving my vote on Guy

Even if Guy were to flip town mason, I'm not townreading Titus for this though.

Likely, this will end no lynch.

VOTE: GuyFawkes

[Ircher]

Guy has about 10 minutes to make a direct claim; else this is where my vote is staying.

[Ircher]

@Thor I knew you'd be willing to compromise.

Guy Scum = Titus tomorrow
Guy Town = Slandaar Re-analysis tomorrow alongside Pops

[Ircher]

@Guy
You're lynched, you might as well claim now

[Ircher]

Then I feel pretty confident (-97%) this is a scum lynch.

[Ircher]

Anyone up for VCA?

[Ircher]

VOTE: Titus

[Ircher]

Massclaim already? Are you sure this is a good idea?

[Ircher]

@Kein
Just... stop....

[Ircher]

Let me elaborate -- That prob. isn't the best strat. Claiming watcher wasn't a great idea most likely,p.

[Ircher]

@BBT
Do you think massclaim is the best strat right now?

[Ircher]

Massclaim already? Are you sure this is a good idea?

LOL.

HOLY FUCK.

Ircher is god damn 100% confirmed scum.

I know for a fact you didn't get a guilty on me.

[Ircher]

Let me elaborate -- That prob. isn't the best strat. Claiming watcher wasn't a great idea most likely,p.

so what?? he already claimed, so let him reveal who the scum are, then we can win!!!

I think Boon hasn't revealed cuz that would make it too easy for scum to cause wifom. I'd wait before revealing the names

[Ircher]

I can see validity in Boon's claim. Furthermore, he soft-claimed earlier though I missed it (Doc protect me if you exist). Finally, Aqua & Slandaar were the two logical NK canidates. Considering my comment that I'd prob. NK Aqua, that could've affected their choice of Slandaar instead, so there is also validity in him targetting the person he said he did.

The only potential problem is that Watcher tends to be more of a Mafia associated role with Tracker being town. Withput more info about the setup though, its hard to decide if Boon is a mafia or a town watcher; either way, I think I'm willing to believe the claim now.

[Ircher]

Pops. The rest I townread

[Ircher]

@Boon
Are you X-Shot or unlimited watcher?

[Ircher]

Yes, it does

You've already outed your role. It makes no diff if you are x-shot or full for nk purposes, scum kill you anyway cuz you'd be a conf. townie

[Ircher]

AQUA is like scum,, i said this from the time yesterday, TTH Is probably also scum........

You soft-claimed pr yesterday -- Was that a fakeclaim. If I remember correctly, I think you soft-claimed an investigative role, which if Boon's claim is true & town, then that means we either have A) Powerful mafia or B) You were fakeclaiming. Two investigative roles is a lot for a mini.

[Ircher]

I think a massclaim may actually work today on a second thought

[Ircher]

Let's massclaim; KEIN FIRST!

[Ircher]

It'll be worth it if town has atleast 3 prs

[Ircher]

True... But if he's dead, he's dead.

[Ircher]

Yes, it does

You've already outed your role. It makes no diff if you are x-shot or full for nk purposes, scum kill you anyway cuz you'd be a conf. townie

I'm going to let you explain to me why just the modifier is what would make me a confirmed townie. Because at the moment, scum is the only one who should care too much about that, as they have to find out if I'm a threat to them with power or not. Please somebody else pick up on why Ircher is scum.

Preach to the choir.

My apologies. I thought you and SirCakez were masons. I was trying to imply I was the mason buddy but not confirm or deny so that scum would shoot me after we lynched Ircher.

Kinda sucked because my read was wrong.

You do realize that that caused me to revote Guy, right?

Guy's antitown behavior & you not sharing info made me really think you were fakeclaiming & Guy was using the momentum to keep him alive.

If Guy even dismissed the claim directly & claimed VT, I would've been 10x less likely to want to lynch him.

[Ircher]

True... But if he's dead, he's dead.

Or they block him and shoot elsewhere.

Or shoot him and block elsewhere.

What action they pick depends on that information. No reason to reveal it either.

Then there's the whole can scum kill obvtown or not if they lack a blocker.

This question is 100% anti-town.

Fair enough, I didn't think that through.

[Ircher]

What I wanted to know is why he claimed so early when he was unlikely to be lynched & imo, unlikely to be nk'd.

[Ircher]

VOTE: Pop

[Ircher]

Excuse you, but did you stop for a sec and realize that I actually thought the claim was possible? Now, show me that wasn't genuine but rather faked.

[Ircher]

And why me?? (You built a case on this yesterday, but I'm pointing out a flaw in your reasoning)

How is it I am the scum one who got GuyFawkes lynched. There were other people on the wagon too, yet you don't accuse them of trying to lynch a mason? So why is it that you are tunneling me?

[Ircher]

Excuse you, but did you stop for a sec and realize that I actually thought the claim was possible? Now, show me that wasn't genuine but rather faked.

Like I'm going to convince you to claim scum.

I'd need a cop guilty for that. :S

I've claimed scum before.

[Ircher]

You and Boon both -- **Rollseyes**

[Ircher]

well, I'm not scum. You are. I am 100% positive I won't be getting lynched this game. I don't follow the site's norm, so...i'm not basing it off that. It's that you really don't do anything or even really defend yourself besides 'mm...i think you are scum!!!! oh, think again about me being not scum...' yeah....

That's just what you and your freaking tunnel vision.

If you really reconsidered what other people thought about me, you may look at this in a different light. But you and your god-awful tunnel vision doesn't let you see anything except scum in me.

If you have a perspective that is so biased, then you will only see biased results.

[Ircher]

Now, I refer you to Micro 590 where I got lynched for that.

I have scumhunted this game, tyvm. ISO me if you're not convinced.

[Ircher]

Also, if you're so sure I'm scum, why aren't you voting me?

[Ircher]

What's townie about Pops?

[Ircher]

..... So in other words, I'm basically tomorrow's lynch? I don't like that.

[Ircher]

Let's see...


Thor, Titus, Boon, TTH & 6 to lynch today. Massive prob vote me too... That's 5, so you guys are 1 short of supporters to lynch me.....

Pedit - Why Kain

[Ircher]

You soft-claimed pr yesterday -- Was that a fakeclaim.

It probably was.

Given Kain's reactions, he obviously wasn't the one that Boon saw. Between me, Boon, and whoever the mystery town special is that targeted Slandaar the special count is already up to 3. Given the powerful and swingy nature of Boon and I's roles, I doubt there's a fourth special.

Well my thoughts are I'm being pinned for a mislynch & scum are just setting that up.

[Ircher]

@massive, do you want to say your thoughts on Ircher/Keyser? Along with who you think would be scum?

Ircher is still scum. Man that was some hardcore rolefishing he was just doing. I still don't think they NEED to be connected (mainly, Keyser doesn't NEED to be scum in order for Ircher to be) but I'd like to hear from Keyser today.

And in all honesty I like TTH and Thor at this point and could go either way on Aqua or pops.

Ok, I did some role fishing. So what?

[Ircher]

{Kein, Ircher, [Aqua | Thor | TTH | Pop]}

I don't think that looks right

[Ircher]

cOut of the choices, he's seemed to have done the least scumhunting this game. I may make a more definitive case later.

[Ircher]

That's an interesting point.....

[Ircher]

gI could use that against Keyser... But it could also be a framing attempt... I hate WIFOM

[Ircher]

Someone go prod 'em

[Ircher]

@Keyser - just hold your vote. I'm willing to end this day after Kain states his Night 1 action. I believe Ircher and then Pop are the scum team, with an outside chance of Titus/massive being in on that instead.

Your wrong.

I'm town.

Nice gambit btw (if only RC saw this potential in you....)

[Ircher]

So Thor lynch today....

{Thor, Pops, Ircher} - Eh, I could see this a possibility actually, even if it is false.

[Ircher]

I'm still convinced Pops is scum.

Along with Thor and Massive/Titus.

I'm busy this week, so I can't contribute much rn.

[Ircher]

Just for gigs, what are you claiming, Thor? Haha.

I'm claiming Gunsmith - Haha.

Your gambit is massively full of holes - the scum nuthugging you at least have excuses for not pointing that out to you. You, and the town too dim to notice, have less excuses.

After my flip - someone smack Boonskies in the face and tell him to talk to me postgame about how dumb his gambit was.
Then lynch Keyser like we should have on Day 1.
Thank you.

Yeah, I'd lynch Thor for this.

By claiming gunsmith, you imply the presence of a SK.

So, either Boon is a SK or a Vig. I don't think an SK be this brave to attempt such a tricky gambit.

I would vote you, except I think you're l-2.

[Ircher]

Just for gigs, what are you claiming, Thor? Haha.

I'm claiming Gunsmith - Haha.

Your gambit is massively full of holes - the scum nuthugging you at least have excuses for not pointing that out to you. You, and the town too dim to notice, have less excuses.

After my flip - someone smack Boonskies in the face and tell him to talk to me postgame about how dumb his gambit was.
Then lynch Keyser like we should have on Day 1.
Thank you.

You're also implying that Kein is scum for soft claiming a presumably investigative role earlier. I'm not buying that.

[Ircher]

I'm not seeing why a town-investigative-Thor would have not wanted to lynch or even pressure Kain d1 after Kain softclaimed an investigative role.

I'm not seeing why I would - you're claiming I should have automatically assumed that it was impossible to have two investigative town roles because that's so strange and rare...?

Because it's not - there are double investigative all the time.

But not two strong ones.

[Ircher]

Should I put Thor at L-1?

[Ircher]

Yes.

VOTE: Thor

L-1

[Ircher]

Backpedalling from Titus; does not read genuine to me.

The BBT wagon was yesterday; I believe you were off of it. You obviously missed whatever conclusions came to that made us switch to GuyFawkes. A better vote would've been served on me or Keyser or a lurker (aka Massive). Def. not BBT.

[Ircher]

That was weird.

[Ircher]

VOTE: KeinTepese

[Ircher]

@Boon
Well, what do you think of yesterday's lynch & nk?

[Ircher]

It was an assumption.

[Ircher]

With the way Kein claimed & considering his playstyle, I could see no reason besides Kein having a role such as Cop for him to do so. If he had a weaker role such as Voyeur, I wouldn't think he would seem quite as excited about the role.

[Ircher]

KT and Keysor need to die.

VOTE: KT

~Titus

That's L-2;

No quicklynches today

[Ircher]

Let!'s see....


{Pops, Massive, Kein} - Plausible
{Boon, Kein, Pops} - Unlikely; I still believe Boon's claim
{Keyser, Ircher, Kein} - Eh, that doesn't look right
{Boon, Kein, BBT} - This actually sounds plausible
{Titus, Keyser, BBT} - Possibly

[Ircher]

No, I think Kein is lying

[Ircher]

I was responding to Aqua, fyi, stop misrepping me.

[Ircher]

D1 Major Wagons: Keyser, BBT, Keyser, GuyFawkes, Ircher, Kein

[Ircher]

Odd Night Cop + Gunsmith = OP

And fyi, Godfather = Innocent result.

Ascetic would return no result, as would being RB'd.

PS: We are in MyLo today

(assuming Boon uses his shot tonight)

[Ircher]

Assuming Kein is telling the truth, then Mafia MUST have a roleblocker or something similar. I actually thinking Kein is telling the truth -- Mafia have no need for a cop & why fakeclaim Odd-Night Cop?

UNVOTE: Kein
VOTE: Pops

[Ircher]

Boonskiies -- Do you plan to use a shot today?

[Ircher]

Ircher you should have spent today bussing.

Vote: Kain Tepes

I can't bus as I have no partners to bus.

[Ircher]

Assuming Kein is telling the truth, then Mafia MUST have a roleblocker or something similar. I actually thinking Kein is telling the truth -- Mafia have no need for a cop & why fakeclaim Odd-Night Cop?
...

Odd Night Cop + Gunsmith = OP
...

Is that you saying I contradicted myself?
I certainly did, but I did in between those two posts reconsidered the balance. Since Gunsmith would get guilties on the Cop, Vig, Mafia, and possibly even JK. So, in other words, gunsmith isn't that strong.

Furthermore, considering that the Odd Night modifier means Kein is half a cop, AND the fact that Mafia has a RB, it actually does sound like a plausible setup. P Swingy, but plausible. I just never really thought about it before.

@Boonskiies

: You should not take a shot tonight - going to MYLO tomorrow if you miss would be very, very bad. I want another day to work with.

Correction:

As it standa, we are in (worst case scenario) MyLo. This is the case if we mislynch AND Boon mis-shoots. If we mislynch and Boon doesn't shoot then we're in LyLo tommorrow.