Mini 1782 Game Over

[Roshar]

/confirming

Also, I wouldn't policy lynch. I've played with young players (Isn't Kein 13?) and I'd usually only jump the wagon if 1)it's later in the game and we don't have any strong leads and 2) said player is bringing the game down 3) if lynching them would clear up a lot of info.

Shaddowez is hard-defending and RC's scrambling to put up a pre-counterwagon.

Looks like we've got our scum team, fellas.

But you're hard-defending.


@Plain farmer, how old are you if you don't mind me asking. Trying to put things in perspective.

[Roshar]

@Frozen

Age is because I've found that many players I've played with are really young and while their play style can be annoying, it helps me differentiate between noobish and suspicious behavior. So, if posts come from a 13 year old, I'll be less likely to jump to a conclusion than if they came from a 30 year old. The three most..."difficult" players I've played with turned out to be really young. So yes, I give

some

leeway to younger individuals based on my experiences.

so you say he is a bad player but needs to live till the end to be omitted?

^No, that's not what I said. I know you have hard feelings towards Kein, but this is pushing it.

Lynching someone purely because their annoying isn't how I do things. Now IF l was undecided about them (they remained unreadable), with no stronger leads and they were hindering the discussion, I may consider lynching them to clear up suspicion and move forward, but not before I've actually looked for mafia and failed to find a stronger candidate.

Scum may use them, yes. But usually that's not as easy to do for scum. What you usually do is keep an eye out for interactions with said player. Also, not advocating keeping them alive until later in the game, but if you have no reason for lynching the player other than them being annoying, I won't lynch them.

[Roshar]

I'm strongly against all kind of policy lynches. I was just pointing out the paradox in what you said. if your suggesting a policy lynch and you say it must w8 till end game , thats not suggesting a policy lynch. thats keeping a prepared meat for a late feast - easy win...

Except I'm not suggesting one...

It's not exactly a policy lynch if you're voting for someone because 30+ pages in, they remain unreadable, and you have no stronger suspect. That would be your strongest suspect.

And I never said keep them alive until end game. I said I won't lynch a player based on an annoying playstyle (erratic, random, can't be held accountable b/c what they say has very little rhyme or reason) early on for said reason. I'd consider it later on only if they remain unreadable which to me is suspicious. So again, not exactly a policy lynch.

To clarify, if said player behaved in a way I found suspicious to warrant a vote on Day 1, I'd have no problem going for them.


@Plain farmer I meant post 29. Was that post sarcasm by any chance?

[Roshar]

Ah, I see.

Pre-Vote: A plain farmer

Two reasons 1) it's an over-the-top rebuttal for a very weak case on mhsmith 2) I see no real conviction behind it.

[Roshar]

Thank you! It's from my favorite book series, "The Stormlight Archive" by Brandon Sanderson. I highly recommend it

It starts with Mhsmith's post 15. Lowell finds it suspicious and votes for mhsmith. Plain farmer agree's and jumps on the wagon in post 20. He later adds post 24.


All in all, no case at all. What was interesting though was that The plain farmer commented right after mhs's 'suspicious' post, so he obviously read it, but only found it suspicious after Lowell called it out.

[Roshar]

no one is voting anyone. this is pre game.

and what are you even talking about those posts are clearly RVS.

In term of Lowell post 19 yeah, now that I look back at it, it's most likely an RVS. I personally found it a little off, so I assumed Lowell did as well (since he quoted it).

But The Plain Farmer pushes it, provides another random reason. And his response to those that didn't agree with him. I thought he wasn't serious at first.

All in all, no case at all. What was interesting though was that The plain farmer commented right after mhs's 'suspicious' post, so he obviously read it, but only found it suspicious after Lowell called it out.

This reasoning is bad for the record.
It's pretty common to just not think it was bad until someone points out stuff you hadn't seen.
That said, still think APF is scum for other reasons.

Lowell didn't exactly explain if (and why) he found it suspicious. To jump on it just because someone quoted it. But fair enough.

btw Roshar, that series is great. Sanderson is one of my favorite authors.

ISN'T IT? I'm in perpetual agony waiting for book three to be released this year.

[Roshar]

Shaddowez is hard-defending and RC's scrambling to put up a pre-counterwagon.

Looks like we've got our scum team, fellas.

It's not the sheeping. It's mainly this. ^

Was that post sarcasm by any chance?

Only to the extent that shaddowez was absolutely going to the mat for his bud, smith.

[Roshar]

ISO reeks of careful scum... already, somehow.

Careful, yes. I always recheck and reword my posts for coherency and try to put things in one post. Alignment indicative, no.

Really don't like the, "I'm so sure someone is scum and it's so early" kinda posts. Speculate all you want, but the utter confidence in a choice this early is either really noobish or fake.

The confusion between FA and RC is weird. I didn't know what RC was talking about because scum know each other. It's a strange interaction anyway.

Did you read it is as genuine or fake excitement when RC thought frozen slipped?

It's not about any

pushing

, it's about the way he's talking like an idiot suggesting that people are confscum on the second page.
Most games that I've lost as town have been either due to tunnelers who can't reconsider things or to scum disguising themselves as tunnelers and getting away with it.
I'm going to policy lynch anyone who does that shit.

I didn't take his assertion that strongly. I agree with you (not sure about the policy lynching,) I just don't think that's what he's doing in this game.

What do you think he's doing in this game, then? For the record, he still stands by his 'case'. I do find it hard to believe scum would throw themselves this way, but I also cannot come up with a town thought process.

@APF: Absolutly. Also, RC is obv scum for reasons too secret for me to publicly explain.

Apf, nos, clumsy: is there a reason why you thought this post was serious?

But you were agreeing with the faking a town slip part?

[Roshar]

Which points did I regurgitate?

And wow there, there's still the option that you were noobish. Why jump to scum so quickly?

[Roshar]

In regards to post 112, yes, RC did mention this first:

I'm saying that

being way too certain about reads is a scumtell

and if they're not scum they're not people you want to have around.

In this instance I think that APF is scum.

Where he sorta implicated himself lol It was him who said:

I'm pretty sure APF is scum and it's only page 2.

But back the the point, yes, RC did mention this point first.


@A Plain farmer

I think we're both referring to different things. The part I assumed RC thought I was scumreading him out on was this

Really don't like the,

"I'm so sure someone is scum and it's so early"

kinda posts. Speculate all you want, but the utter confidence in a choice this early is either really noobish or fake.

Because I was basically quoting his post 43.

But looking back, he probably meant the same part you referred to.

And I did call him out by asking him why he jumped to scum first.

[Roshar]

Right, so, yes it does happen that during day 2 or 3 you're still not sure about who to go for and you don't have a decent lead. Being

consistently

unreadable to me is really bad. If I feel like I can't see any town motivation or thought process in any of someone's post, that does not equal scum behavior, that equals being unreadable, and if I find a player consistently, "unreadable", i.e, I can't relate to whatever they're saying after 30+ pages that would be a red flag for me. And yes, I definitely think it would be worth a lynch to clear up suspicion, provided I don't have better leads.

I've played with a player who couldn't be held accountable for his posts anymore b/c of his play style. At first our reasons for keeping said player alive was, "I doubt scum would be so unshameful in their accusations" or "he speaks with no filters, scum wouldn't do that" so we just stopped holding him accountable for anything he said. Day 2, out next major suspect had claimed a role and we couldn't lynch them, so said player was up for lynch. He ended up being town, but we couldn't go forward unless we cleared up that suspicion. And I wouldn't have done it any differently.


And the reason I keep talking about general crap, RC, is because I keep being asked/suspected for said, "general crap".

[Roshar]

@Frozen you're constant pointing out things you find weird but never commenting on them is really annoying. You've been doing that to RC for a while now too. What is your read on him?



@Jakefromstatefarm, while voting isn't counted, the suspicions and votes will likely carry on to D1.

[Roshar]

I don't like Froot Loop's commenting on 'usefulness to town' as if it's a synonym for 'towniness.'

You need to stop finding anyone who attacks you suspicious.

[Roshar]

Did you read it is as genuine or fake excitement when RC thought frozen slipped?

I read it as genuine.

I didn't take his assertion that strongly. I agree with you (not sure about the policy lynching,) I just don't think that's what he's doing in this game.

What do you think he's doing in this game, then? For the record, he still stands by his 'case'. I do find it hard to believe scum would throw themselves this way, but I also cannot come up with a town thought process.

APF hasn't been tunnelling and he has been talking about other things in the game and his later vote references other things smith has done as well.

Maverick came off pretty well from his interaction with RC - it feels like he's genuinely looking for information and not jumping on RC's behaviour which could be done as scum. I'm not saying that scum would definitely do it, but not doing it is a measured move.

RC seems sensitive but I'm not sure what this indicates, while it's definitely not useful to town. I can't really see anything useful to the town in his responses to Maverick.

Yeah, I read it as genuine too. Which gave me a town read for the most part, but then his behavior with maverick set that back to null.

[Roshar]

This is a pointless topic. scums know each other. Its obvious as the day that both of us we're just joking.

Your push on me right now is iffy

RC

wtf are you doing ?

That RC is quite upset about something and I don't know what.

Did you know I as either alignment could provide a massive damning case on anyone in this game?

Don't scum or townread people based on the cases they provide or the reasoning they provide. Scum or townread them based on their motivations and how they do things.

ok RC this is the kind of post making me paranoid about you. your not a teacher. come and sit beside other students.

These. You keep mentioning that you're the only one who can really read him, but so far you've got nothing.

[Roshar]

Biasing you? You've been quick to explain RC to others as well under the idea that you know his personality better. Either way you need to allow others to formulate their own reads on RC.

I don't like the way I'm getting pushed too.

I assure you, nobody likes the way they get pushed.

[Roshar]

Those comments do not contain content. They just point out things you don't like. They're not conclusive.

[Roshar]

Will wait for your re-reading, clumsy.

I'm willing to wait for Jake for D1. Don't see the big deal everyone is making because jake has effectively set the spot light on himself. The lurking is much more scary.

[Roshar]

Erm, you asked for those quotes Frozen. Take a little pressure, will you.

Personality, age, play style, is all part of the package. Implying you know him better and you're a better judge is okay in RL, but not in mafia.

[Roshar]

This is saying I think his push on me is not a real push and he is trying to get a reaction test.

So you think he was faking it when he thought you slipped to get a reaction out of you? I thought that was pretty genuine on his part.

I do what it takes to get correctly townread, and if that means fudging truths then so be it.

lol

Also, lowell needs to post more. Just b/c he's been mislynched in the past for his play style, doesn't get him off the hook.

[Roshar]

^ Forgot to put the quote on this one.

I have a meta of correctly reading RC. I know they are all a part of package but you can't scum read someone becuase he is aggressive or emotional or seems like an asshole.

That will just prove your an idiot.

First of all, don't call me an idiot. Under any case. I'm getting sick of the insults thrown around on this thread.

You also said that you were mistaken one game when you town read him and he turned scum.

And if someone acts emotional or aggressive to being scum read, than yes, you can.

Deleted what was in essence a duplicate post.
~Ircher

[Roshar]

third no you cant. ATE is not a scum tell. Its a personality dependent tell. being over reactionary and aggressive are Not scum tells at all.

Attacking people constantly b/c they are accusing you isn't necessarily scum tell as it could be a reactionary personality. But I've seen it being done by scum, who freak out and tear apart everything thrown at them. So yes, it can be a scum tell.

[Roshar]

It could be a scum tell so it can be from town. That behavior by its own mean nothing about alignments.

Not sure if I understood this right but here goes.
It could be either, it depends on how an individual reads it in it's context, which is my point. Like my post where you and 3 others read as scum-motivated, could also be read as coming from town. You weigh it out and see which speaks to you. This whole, my way is right, if you come to another conclusion you're an idiot needs to stop.

I'm not saying don't attack someone who's made a case on you. I'm saying attacking everyone on the thread who voices an opinion on you that you don't like can definitely be taken as scum tell.

Added quote tags.
~Ircher

[Roshar]

ah, crap, forgot the quote again

[Roshar]

I think that FA would be more inclinced to write me off as town here, especially since she's getting scumread for her indecisiveness.

Who's scum reading FA?

[Roshar]

I'm not sure what to make of Roshar or APF. I'm gonna have to re-read through things with them, but I do feel like there might be something there.

How about re-read everyone's posts and come to an independent conclusion? Not sure why reading it the first time didn't give you an adequate idea, but jumping on APF and I b/c we're the ones being discussed is really opportunistic and looks like you want to blend in.

Vote: Clumsy

@Jake, with posts like those, you're asking for it. Really surprised. You kept asking when the game would start only to post that?

[Roshar]

Posts with no content. You effectively put the spot light on yourself by refusing to participate in pre-game, giving us the idea that you'd act differently once the game started. But, no you still post nothing relevant to the game. Did you not read through the past 15 pages b/c they were pre-game?

So, how does this work? You start analyzing posts only after the game starts?

[Roshar]

Posts with no content. You effectively put the spot light on yourself by refusing to participate in pre-game, giving us the idea that you'd act differently once the game started. But, no you still post nothing relevant to the game. Did you not read through the past 15 pages b/c they were pre-game?

So, how does this work? You start analyzing posts only after the game starts?

Don't know how I put the spotlight on myself, I'm playing the game. The game just started and I did post something relevant

and I am acting differently because I posted a serious vote

. I'm not going to stop making jokes when I see something that I can joke about though and if you are thinking I'm going to start right away with content filled posts I'm sad to say you'll be disappointed.

To your other questions. No I didn't read the pages and I probably won't because they are posts made before the game started and imo irrelevant.

@Jake Adamant refusal to contribute put you under the spotlight. You said out you wouldn't because you don't see the point if you can't vote, because no real pressure can be applied. The assumption was made, that once you could vote, you'd start using your vote to apply pressure. The argument becomes pointless though, once you say you haven't read the past 15 pages. Because assuming you actually didn't, you have no content with which you can apply a serious vote.

I don't understand why you wouldn't read the past 15 pages, esp if you are looking for allegiances, but I'll give your space to play in the way you say you do. We still have 14 days left. All in all, I don't like the apathy displayed.

And finally, when you say RC is a serious vote, what do you mean?

[Roshar]

Also, Nosferatu, you're a Kat Von D lipstick shade. It's almost always sold out though, reaaally frustrating

But other than that, I gotta agree with mhs that Nos's case has no substance. And he's trying really hard to keep it up.

I also agree with this:

but also could just be a way to play the "scum wouldn't be this blatant" game

I've seen it done before by scum in the one other game I've played on mafiascum.

[Roshar]

@Nos being the fifth person to find me suspicious after posting no content wouldn't make you look good, and wouldn't help you blend in.

[Roshar]

@Nos, yeah, it would be the easiest wagon to find, but it wouldn't be the best to jump on after so many were on it. As scum, it wouldn't be the most safe decision to jump on a wagon so late, even if you came up with a different reason. So I don't think that means much. I'd consider mhs a better target for scum, because prior to D1 he didn't post that much. He was held suspicious by both lowell and APF. And he was questioned quite a bit on his sarcastic comment. He'd be a good low key target.

[Roshar]

@APF no worries. I'm glad the lip stick reference sorted things out.

[Roshar]

Its not a matter of appeasing us . Its a matter of can I relate to this person. Can I clear them. This isn't a one player game where it's like screw you all, I do my thing. People will try to read you. I don't know why this surprises you.
Allegiances. Town or scum. We look for both.
Assuming you hadn't read pregame, placing a vote on RC right after day begins would be considered a random vote.

I never said you put yourself in the spot light intentionally.

[Roshar]

What do you mean by conclusive? As in she's not explicity stating her views, or something else? I'm not sure how anything can be seen as conclusive on D1 with no flips or night actions, unless I'm misunderstanding

As in you're only pointing at things you find odd but never coming to a conclusion about how this makes you feel towards RC.

The bolded pings me bad...I'm going to do an ISO dive on Nos, but right now she's probably my strongest scum read.

Yeah, same post gave me bad vibes as well. The thought process of, "if I wanted to pick the easiest wagon, I'd have gone for x" but look, "I went for y instead" as if that exonerated you, comes from scum. And the I'd BS a reason against roshar part.

[Roshar]

Was busy today, and probably won't be able to post tomorrow as well. I'll try to catch up Thursday.

[Roshar]

Had this typed up before the thread was locked. Anywho.

I'll be commenting as I read through.

Don't like how post 476 came right after post 475, when frozen agreed with Jake that mhs' posts feel like he's trying to make himself useful. This feels like Jake got some agreement and decided it'd be okay to vote for mhs.

I'm pretty much in agreement with most of what mhs said, and he's a strong town read from me. His points may be about things that everyone discussed etc, but that shows me he's reading everything and his comments on them make sense.

Btw this makes me think you think I'm town. If I were scum, or you thought I was scum, My play couldn't be annoying you. It would be pinging your scum dar and you would be calling me scum.

So mh thinks/knows I'm town. That was productive.

There are instances when you think of someone's play as annoying b/c they're being obstinate and unreadable. Actually, it would be more beneficial to scum to outright accuse that kind of play as being scummy instead of trying to read it. Don't like this 1-dimensional view of how town would have thought.
(and then mhs says the same thing^, better even)

Also, jake's stance on having not cared about pre-game, then voting for RC on start of D1 with a policy lynch reason, that later changes to some posts he found scummy (posts he didn't bother quoting and posts that came from pre-game) is all over the place. Feels like he's making up things as he goes. And his push on mhs doesn't resonate with me.

I also don't think his push/vote on Nos is particularly troublesome, though the low content is certainly a point that's been brought up before (see 343, possibly others ). I'm actually a bit curious why the Nos ISO dive leads to a town read of Jake, though. shaddowez, could you clarify that point?

Most of Nos' posts that have any sort of content in them are attempting to discredit any sort of scum read on Jake (mainly yours, but a couple others as well). Considering I'm reading Nos as scummy because of her lack of content and lack of scum hunting, along with the one or two other points I mentioned in 464, this behavior reads as either buddying or White Knighting. At this point in time I don't see Jake and Nos as scum buddies, so that makes me read Jake as townier.

I don't agree with reading someone based on another player, but assuming you do, why what about the interaction between Nos and Jake makes you not consider they're scum buddies?


Post 499 from APF is giving me a town lean. It feels honest and direct. I can follow his read on RC. Yes, his posts first 2 pages made me think wth is he thinking and why is he still pushing a mhs case, but I'm starting to feel better about him.

If you wanted clarity from me you handeled it all wrong.

Possibly. I don't really agree, but at the least I eventually got some answers.

Had you asked me direct questions about my vote to begin with instead of voting me to "motivate me to do better" you would have saved time. You would have also stayed off my radar and wouldn't have revealed yourself as scum.

Thanks I appreciate scum making it easy for me

Kinda sounds like, 'serves you right for even accusing me'. Vindictive. Anti-town. Not necessarily scummy.

post 509 from RC. Isn't this your second or third time now? Play doesn't make him credible. Null.

Mhs's 518 *nods*

Jakes' 519 and 520 If Jake had read some posts from pre-game that made him feel RC is suspicious, you'd think he'd have posted them instead of the policy reason he copy and pasted. Call it different play style, but I do not see interest in looking for scum.

Jakes 521 -

Vote: JakefromStateFarm

I realize he's probably at L-1. In that case, I'm intending to hammer.

The, "I've provided two people now" isn't being open. It's done by both town and scum.
The, "I've done more than other players as well" when all you've done is 1) try to defend yourself 2) vote RC as a policy lynch although you state it's serious 3)vote mhs as a very weak-case in (I think) self-defense.
The, 'why are you pressuring me? Why don't you pressure your other scum reads instead" is coming off as getting sick of the pressure, leave me alone. Can go both ways though.

MHS expecting content from you isn't unrealistic though. Everyone was expecting some form of content after 15 pages. We may have expected you not to post content in pre-game, but we didn't expect you not to post ABOUT pre-game in D1.
His unvote looked like it came from hesitancy regarding your alignment. I find hesitancy towards aligment more town indicative than unshakeable confidence.

@Shaddowez, yes, I had other suspicions. I wanted clumsy to reply to me first with my vote on him b/c I really didn't like that post. And the wagon on Nos, and the questioning on Jake was putting good pressure on both of them. Depending on his reply, I was going to keep/change my vote.

Maverick's 543 Agree.
@Clumsy, first time I read it I was talking to frozen and had my attention there for the most part. Second re-read it felt like you were giving yourself time to look for reason to jump on an existent wagon.

The lipstick thing helped APF get my gender right. And I couldn't help but think of it everytime I read Nosferatu.
Decent vibes on Maverick or myself? Also, did you end up ISOing pregame APF and myself? If so, was there, "something there"?

Maverick's 566 pretty much the same points I commented on.

Jake's 574 - what. So you think mhs is scum and wanna bring out his scum buddies? With frozen as well? In that case 1) you'd have ruined your plan 2) I totally don't think you were doing that.
578 - the Nos defending isn't helping Nos imo.
The argument of Maverick and Jake about lying though seems to be semantics. Jake is saying that he didn't lie because he meant mhs INDIRECTLY got pressured to switch his vote, wheras he thinks Maverick meant directly pressured.

Nos's 607 pings me so so bad. Froot and jake as town? Froot is one of the least posters, not scummy, no, but he hasn't exactly shared much. And jake posts are mainly his self-defense and his weak case on mhs. Although I do agree that Frozen is hard to understand sometimes.


Post 615 Bah Everyone who disagrees with you is scummy. I'm starting to think the only person on your list who isn't scummy is Nos, because he votes mhs after mhs voted for you. And honestly, if either of you flip scum, I'm gonna vote for the other.

Frozen's 641 There is a point there.

650, @Nos, I think it's fair, esp when the interaction with mhs was scummy to him. He also mentioned his reasons why, which I relate to.

655, RC looks like he's trying to reach out to Nos. I like. Null leaning town.


And wow, so many people replaced out.

So, assuming nobody wants to change their vote, this is my intent to hammer Jake.

[Roshar]

Willing to wait for the earlier voters (froot and mav)

[Roshar]

It's been a while. Catching up!

[Roshar]

Bah, Kain's replacement (Jeanne) doesn't make me feel better about that slot. Not sure if it's scummy per say, but man, would have appreciated something. Looking forward to Huntress's posts.

Not sure how Jake's vindictive behavior is making him more town (and shaddowz explains it better in 950).

@Clumsy

, why does it feel like you're promising a lot but never really chipping in?

Max's 937 I didn't like. Lumping a bunch of people as town, and including himself. What is town arguing anyway? This slot remains scummy for me.

VOTE: Maxous


949 Could swing both ways, but giving me a fake vibe.

Doing an ISO of Clumsy, and at near 40 pages, there's zero attempt at scum hunting or getting into any argument.

Willing to go for clumsy at this point as well.

[Roshar]

@Clumsy, first time I read it I was talking to frozen and had my attention there for the most part. Second re-read it felt like you were giving yourself time to look for reason to jump on an existent wagon.

The lipstick thing helped APF get my gender right. And I couldn't help but think of it everytime I read Nosferatu.
Decent vibes on Maverick or myself? Also, did you end up ISOing pregame APF and myself? If so, was there, "something there"?

@Clumsy, could you reply to this please? Some of this was in response to your 561

[Roshar]

Yo huntress, can you explain your scum reads on myself, froot and clumsy?

Expecting more from this slot as RC was virtually unreadable.

[Roshar]

Woops. Seemed to have confused Huntress's slot with Titus. So many replacements /sigh

Anywho,

Kain Tepes

slot has no content either, so looking forward to that as well.

[Roshar]

VOTE: Clumsy

L-1

Let's get things moving.

[Roshar]

VOTE: Clumsy

L-1

Let's get things moving.

Do you mean to a lynch, or is this a pressure vote?

Bottom of 958

I was willing to lynch. Still am. I don't buy him being busy. Every single post of his is a, "stay afloat" post. His scum reads are Mav is, "something is bothering me about him, and I can't figure it out". His read on myself is, "I could see a Roshar scum, seems like she just wants a lynch, but I could be wrong". Stop and look at the content he's actually provided in his recent posts. He has flung out a few, "I think these people may be scummy" but has zero content with which to back it up. My take? He's got nothing. It's really hard making cases at people when you know they're all town.

He looks kind of passive while under pressure for you, which pings me as somewhat scummy from my (limited) experience.

I was gonna say that passive swings both ways. But since you find it scummy to be passive under pressure, aren't you implicating yourself?

[Roshar]

Shaddowez seems to be focused on beating people down than building up a case. It seems like a lot of discrediting is his priority.

Speaking of discrediting, I don't recall seeing you mention any town reads. In your recent posts you've thrown shade at Maverick, myself, Shaddowz, APF, Pisskop.

No wait, the

ONLY

post you liked was from Maxous that you, "like and think it's town, even though it's against me".

So the only post you end up 'liking' you use to make you appear more town?

[Roshar]

If you flip scum, you've made Maxous look worse to me.

[Roshar]

Oh, and Maxous was the first to unvote Clumsy. Hmmmm....



If Clumsy flips scum, for all those who are still unsure of Maxous, please go for him next.


Is Maxous scummy by himself? Yes.

Upon a Clumsy scum flip, does this make him way more scummy? Hell yes.

[Roshar]

@Max

What would you like to know Max?

you said you wanted time to talk.

I kinda agree regarding Shadowez, I wasn't stoked with him popping in with a wall full of questions earlier.

Oh, and Maxous was the first to unvote Clumsy. Hmmmm....

yeah, to prevent a quickhammer.
I would think you agree since you want the other replacements to catch up

besides from what i've seen you're case on me is you don't like me giving town reads on {FA,RC and yourself}
apart from the jake stuff

The other replacements promised to chip in by the weekend. They haven't kept that up.

It's not that I don't like the town read, it's that the term,'town arguing' is a sweeping statement. One that doesn't analyze individual slots for alignment.

And yeah, the Jake stuff. I was willing to lynch him prior to you entering the game. Your entrance did not change my stance.

not bothering to quote but Radiant Cowbells and Frozn Angel both having a go at each other and trying to figure each other out would point towards them being town considering they're friends.
If either was scum I would suspect the scum would try and appease and buddy the other to get an ally in the thread.
Neither did that and I would town-read the slots for it.



Frozen Angel was really really obvious town anyway and pisskop has been town too so I would be near 100% on that slot.
Maybe I could look to quote something from Roshar but she was pro-active and the arguments were solid so she came across as a town read.

Would agree that Frozen came out as really town, but the Frozen/RC argument clearing RC as well is a stretch. There's so much that went on after as well.

@Clumsy

If you're a meta person, feel free to peruse my first game on the site. I think Smith linked it above, or you could find it on my profile. I was scum in my first game, and I had no problem making cases for or against people. I'm having a hard time reading people in this game though.

Would you say the reason why there's little interaction from you is b/c you're having a hard time reading people, or being busy or little interest?
In terms of the pisskop read, I misunderstood your post with him. I thought you were addressing him, so scratch him off.

@Nos

DL is in 5 days and not all replacements are caught up and involved. No reason to hammer atm.

btw Nos, what are your current thoughts? Any current scum reads? You say you're ignoring me, but you're still voting me, so I'd like some clarification on where you stand.

I'm not completely rid of my suspicion of you, but it's an afterthought at the moment and I'm not actually reading your posts in detail. Lowell is pretty suspect right now. I didn't like his vote on me. His recent hammer request isn't as significant but is still not very good.

RC is making me double take too but I don't really think anything good will come of trying to analyze his posts.

What remains of your suspicions on Mhs? Do you find him scummy enough for a vote? Or does your vote on him sit idle b/c you find nobody else scummy? In that case would you describe yourself as

@Max: a person who cannot understand the game well enough for adequate play.

You say you're ignoring him, one would assume you're formulating town/scum reads in the meanwhile. Have you?
I didn't even notice Lowell's vote on you. Why do you not like it? (apart from the fact that we all don't like votes on us)

Alright. I'd recommend against consciously ignoring people, but there's been enough debating of playstyles in this thread.

Do you have any thoughts on Clumsy or his wagon?

Evaluating the likelihood of Clumsy being VI vs scum.

I like the fact that Clumsy's got some votes, but the wagon itself seems kind of shoddy and irregular.

On the surface it seems good, but wagon composition gives meh vibez

Can you point to reasons why you think it's shoddy and irregular? Quotes, motives, etc.

[Roshar]

Aw, man. Maverick's getting replaced too?


Titus (RC) and Huntress (Kain Tepes) are both mysteries to me. Moving on to D2 with so little is so frustrating.

Let's see,

Lowell

, can I get current reads from you on each slot? I can't help but notice that you keep jumping on every wagon created.

@Nos

, post 1034 do you think Lowell is scummy for doing so? If so, why isn't your vote on him?

Who do you think is scummy on the Clumsy wagon?

@Clumsy

, In summary, after the re-read, who would you consider town and scum?

[Roshar]

@Titus, you're leaning town based on the wagon? Not his content?

Can you elaborate?

[Roshar]

My bad, I thought you were replying to this:

I didn't even notice Lowell's vote on you. Why do you not like it? (apart from the fact that we all don't like votes on us)

[Roshar]

Bah, hit submit instead.


My bad, I thought you were replying to this:

I didn't even notice Lowell's vote on you. Why do you not like it? (apart from the fact that we all don't like votes on us)

[Roshar]

Who are your top three town reads?
Only scum read from you so far is mhs?

There's really been very little interest in scum hunting. Your vote on mhs is stagnant and there has been no interest in adding content or looking for new scum reads.

VOTE: Nosferatu.

I'm willing to wait on Clumsy.

[Roshar]

In terms of Clumsy's actual content, I don't feel better about it. It's more him feeling bad about being a liability. That parts kinda getting to me. B/c that would be the correct town response to being falsely accused as town. But shouldn't there be some anger and bitterness too? Like 'Screw you guys, I hope it hurts when I flip town?'

Now, on to the actual content. I don't like how his read on me changed. Reading something the first time and thinking it's town, then going back and thinking it's scummy, is a thing. But vice-versa, reading something and finding it scummy the first time, then upon a reread thinking it's town, is just never a thing that has occurred to me. Which makes me think his read on me the first time was empty and going with the flow of things.

He gives lukewarm reads without backing them up and easily retracts them. His read on froot has changed as well, and it's almost making me feel like he gave his original town read on Froot just to appease us.

But his tone is making me hesitate.

Input anyone? Mhs, Apf, replacements maybe?

What do you think Lowell?

[Roshar]

So went back to re-read the Nos/Mhs argument that happened back on page 16/17.

@Nos, I can't think of a better way to describe your vote on Mhs as anything other than stagnant. Your vote on him was placed on page 14 without explanation.

You later state that his, "sarcastic" comment really pinged you, but after going back and forth you say you,

but I know now that you genuinely believe you were being obviously sarcastic.

You vote for Mhs before Mhs had voted for Jake. So clearly your early vote on MHS had nothing to do with that. You said your vote remains b/c Mhs was "gunning for low-hanging fruit". Upon Mhs unvoting Jake, you said you would move it once someone pings you. So, 28 pages later, nothing pinged you?

Until I asked you that is.

[Roshar]

It's not that I'm demotivated; what I don't want to do is walk the entire playerlist through my thought process on everything. And I don't usually engage my scumreads.

1) This assumes you have an active thought process on what's going on. Very little of your posts have reflected active interest and thought.

2) This playstyle does not promote discussion and is not pro-town. How do you expect anyone to town read you if they can't actually follow what you're thinking. This is ideal scum play tbh.

As scum, you wouldn't want to engage your 'scumreads'

[Roshar]

It's not misconstrued, Nos. I read that argument like three times now (as painful as that was). Did you previously think he didn't mean sarcasm? Yes. After arguing about it for a bit, do you later see that he did indeed mean to be sarcastic? Yes.

The point of me quoting it here was to show that your original reason for finding him suspicious was cleared up in that argument. So there was no reason to keep voting him, and to have kept your vote on him almost 30 pages later made no sense.

[Roshar]

So the whole 'you didn't explain x until I asked' argument that was bound to come up sooner or later, is NAI.]So the whole 'you didn't explain x until I asked' argument that was bound to come up sooner or later, is NAI.

And where did I say this?

Deleted above post that differed only in formatting.
~Ircher

[Roshar]

I really don't see how Mhs

literally took every post and found some sort of implication that wasn't there and asked me about it.

I can't find one example of this. The part you quoted (1090)was him trying to understand what you posted. He was asking you about it b/c he wasn't sure if that's what you meant by it. And I can easily relate as I really didn't understand what you meant in that post either.

[Roshar]

There's quite a difference between 'you didn't explain until I asked', and you 'didn't change your vote until I started asking you about your current one.'

[Roshar]

The first implies a pre-formed stance that you simply didn't explain to everyone. The latter implies you were caught off guard doing nothing.

[Roshar]

My post 1111 was referring to your vote on Mhs.

I was saying I don't mean your stance on Lowell, I meant you didn't change your stagnant vote until I asked you about it.

[Roshar]

Yah, and I don't see the 'implication' issue with Mhs. Perhaps there are other implications I missed?

[Roshar]

yo clumsy, what do you think about nos?

[Roshar]

Post 1033 I explained further.

I was ready to vote for Jake in 891. Max's entrance continued my scum read.


Can you provide actual quotes and examples of where you think I'm voting people on playstyle? A gut read after 40 pages can't really be held accountable.

[Roshar]

Any town reads Huntress? And why as well

[Roshar]

Huntress, we need more content from your slot. I was expecting you'd be more active after the last post when you said you'd caught up.

yo max, can you explain your vote?

[Roshar]

In terms of 1033. Town would not analyze discussion like that. I don't read a discussion between a bunch of players and think, "this is a towny discussion". The lack of individual assortment reflects a scum state of mind. As scum you'd know everyone is town and looking for individual alignments isn't what you're doing.

What parts of 891 and why?

B/c there's virtually nothing on the Kain Tepes slot, and your posts (whenever they come) have very little in them. A gut read at this point is giving us nothing. We can't analyze your slot nor hold you accountable to things you've said.

[Roshar]

Also, no strong town reads? Not even one player? How do you view mhs or frozen? I find it really really hard to believe you don't have one decent town read.

Looking forward to your posts tomorrow.

[Roshar]

Indeed.

@

Nosferatu,

(mhs and APF too if you can) what's your read on Max and him advocating Huntress for the lynch in 1077 (her only post with game content at the time of the scum read was 971 and Jeanne's 857 and 863) and then his subsequent vote on her a couple pages later? Last I remember you were giving Jake a town read (and he gave you a town read as well). I should add Max found Jeane suspicious in 939.


Just realized his post 1077 he didn't bother voting for either lynch candidates. Much conviction.


Back to this.


VOTE: Maxous

@Max, what happened to your APF scum read in 937? (I'm calling it a scum read ofc, b/c you advocated his lynch earlier).


Guys, deadline is nearing, let's reach common ground on this.

[Roshar]

I am thinking Max is scum here based on wagon jumping. The clumsy wagon remained static while people jumped off Max. If Clumsy is scum, there are hard core bussers there.

Who do you think out of the Clumsy wagon may be hardcore bussing and why?

[Roshar]

@Huntress, while you did have multiple scum reads, you only really explained one, and barely at that.

In terms of Jake's 574, it's not that I disapprove of his play style, it's that I don't believe for a second that he's trying to lure Mhs/Frozen's scum buddies out. That is a ludicrous claim and looks like he's just trying to explain his actions which were questioned by Maverick in 572.

In terms of 615, again this is something Frozen and I disagreed on if you have read our earlier posts. Being reactionary is one thing but scum reading everyone who finds you scummy is really off and earns scum points from me.

521. His three points where he attempts to defend himself are points that can be easily refuted. 1) I've provided two people, i.e, I'm helpful town. 2)I've done more than most players,when no, he's really replying to all the fingers pointed at him for his refusal to start in pregame 3) Why are you trying to figure me out, go figure RC out.

His self-defense came out really weak and worked against him imo. I was highlighting that.

The other half of that post is an attempt to slap a scum read at Mhs. The reasons he pointed out I feel worked more for Mhs than against him, and begs the question, 'Does he truly think Mhs is scummy or is he simply trying to push Mhs away from pressuring him?'

[Roshar]

Hey Ircher, how much time do we have left?

[Roshar]

My bad, didn't notice that the VC was a count down. Thanks.

k

VOTE: Clumsy

L-2

[Roshar]

Clumsy, willing to jump on the Maxous wagon? (you know with him finding you scummy for inactivity with you being on V/LA or what not)

That's probably the only compromise that can be made. Cause I'm kinda scum-reading him more than you at this point. Yes it really really sucks that titus and huntress are barely chipping in, and this is not in their favor, but they've also provided us with nothing to work with. We're one day away from end of game and it's going to be impossible for any other wagon to form.

[Roshar]

K, let's do it.

VOTE: Maxous

[Roshar]

Maybe I want to like around and

figure out her people out

. You know

like what I've been doing with frozen

?

Figure her people out? What does this mean to you? Because to me, he's saying he's trying to figure out 'her people", aka scum buddies.

What do I think of you? Null leaning scummy. The more you lie about me the scummier you become.

You can point out what's wrong with someone's case

without

scum reading them. He scum read mhs, frozen and now Maverick for calling him out.

What I see in that post is Jake trying to sort out mhs's motive for attacking him.

Obviously we see different things in that post.

[Roshar]

@Huntress, any reason why you're taking your time voting Max? With less than a day left?

[Roshar]

aw, man Johnny.

ISO Maxous and Clumsy (both have very little posts).

All I can do is quote where I scum read both of them (if you want)

[Roshar]

Looking at the situation of this game, I'm confident the town will end up with a Clumsy caucus in the coming hours. Shaddow's a former Clumsy voter, Nos townreads Max, and Max himself I'd expect will also vote Clumsy if needed in a deadline rush. So let's make it official, shall we?

I was also pinged by Jeanne's vote on Jake. I do believe her when she said she doesn't like tunnelers, but I don't think Jake had really been tunneling at the time. So one way to make sense of that post is to see it as scum pushing through a lynch using one's established preferences as cover. So of course

I also buy Max's scumread of the slot as legitimate.

(my bold)

@APF - can you explain what you mean by 'legitimate'?

I mean that it doesn't look like a read that a scum just fudged for whatever purpose. I see where he's coming from, so if he's giving that read as scum, he's at least doing it in a way that accurately emulates what a townie might be thinking.

Shaddow found Clumsy's recent posts townish and expressed finding something off about Maxous. Nos, found the Clumsy wagon off. And Huntress also expressed more interest in Maxous.

[Roshar]

Clumsy, can you post a reads list on who you find scummy to town?

[Roshar]

@Huntress, any reason why you're taking your time voting Max? With less than a day left?

There was more than a day left when I made my last post so I was quite ok with leaving the vote till today. Call it a reluctance to vote the same way as my main scum read.

Yes, and now there's 10 hrs left.

[Roshar]

He's a town lean from me, why?

[Roshar]

{Johnny (Pisskop, FA),}
{Froot}
{FA_Q2 (Mav), Maxous (Jake), Nos, Shaddow}
{Titus (RC), Huntress (Kain, Jeanne), Roshar, Smith}
{APF, Lowell}

Can you explain why your reads on me and froot changed? Last I remember froot was coasting?

[Roshar]

B/c he plays similarly in his metas.

[Roshar]

The game I meta'd he was actually. Don't remember the votes, but his scum reads were given in a similar manner. I should probably do a bit more metas.

[Roshar]

Aw, man Nos, that's not fair. This was like a week ago and I never paid any attention to the name of the game. He was town in it, but that's all I remember. Will try finding it.

[Roshar]

Wasn't aware of wiki pages at that point, so I had looked at previous posts of his and clicked a mafia game thread.

[Roshar]

Check out Prophecy Mafia.

[Roshar]

Personally will not be willing to lynch Lowell.

[Roshar]

Oh wow, clumsy. Just wow.

For someone who gave a town read in

At first I was very meh about Roshar, looking like she was pushing too hard on something that wasn't really there, but I'm reading more as aggressive scumhunting this go around. Town.

And yes, you've stated your not sure and you keep going back and forth, but how did you jump to wanting to lynch me?

Your reads hold no water.

[Roshar]

I left the page number because that quote was in a wall of text and I don't actually know how to quote the specific quote without having to erase all the other information, so, yah, too much effort.

In terms of that being page 1-5,

is it my fault that your input only continued to page 6?

I didn't have a problem you voting for Max b/c 1) you were on the line and it's understandable you'd vote for anyone other than yourself (if you were town). And you stated you found him off for jumping on you in your inactivity while you were V/LA. He was my stronger scum lead, so yes, I wanted to get that lynch moving.

I find your read list pretty damn inconsistent, so excuse me if I don't use it as reference for your actual thoughts.


Oh, no, trust me, I'm pretty incredulous at your inconsistency.

I'm willing to hammer the moment you've claimed at L-1 so no, I'm fully willing to take the consequences whatever you flip.

[Roshar]

Thank you! It's from my favorite book series, "The Stormlight Archive" by Brandon Sanderson. I highly recommend it

It starts with Mhsmith's post 15. Lowell finds it suspicious and votes for mhsmith. Plain farmer agree's and jumps on the wagon in post 20. He later adds post 24.


All in all, no case at all. What was interesting though was that The plain farmer commented right after mhs's 'suspicious' post, so he obviously read it, but only found it suspicious after Lowell called it out.

I like this. I like this a lot. Very good point, I think it's pretty indicative sometimes.

VOTE: roshar

This guy is barely holding it together and we've just started. Come do this with me and watch this poor rube flail. His ISO reeks of careful scum... already, somehow.

Also clumsy's ham-handed "omg how many scum are there guyz" is the worst fake-townslip I've seen in a while. which is saying something.

maverick is town.

If it's the worst fake-townslip you've seen, why are you not voting for me here? If it's a fake-townslip, that would outright implly that I was scum looking like town, so why on Roshar (

who I think is actually doing well at this point, so I don't get that

) instead of me.

Also, my responses to Lowell have been like that mainly because he's just getting on my nerves.

Well, I didn't get to finish, and I'm on the road now. From what I have, I didn't like APF and RC. Titus hasn't been doing much after the replacement, and that seems sus. She did say it was work and sickness though. Hope you get to feeling better Titus.

I'm feeling better about Rosh

, and while Lowell is annoying, not sure if actually scummy. Looking into that might be good though.

I like Max for town as well. I'm starting to get a slight feeling that Froot is coasting a bit, but nothing too big. Could be playstyle?

Really need Huntress in here. And the other two replacements when they get here. Ugh.

Excuse me if those are the few times you give your reads on me.

Your read on me only started to disintegrate when Huntress chipped in and thought I was scum reading based on play style.

Now all of a sudden, you placed me on the lower side of your read list.

Then you state you're

I'm in the middle with Roshar.

Which then changes to

I'm willing on

those

, but we need Johnny, Shaddow, and the others in here.

So yes. I'm incredulous at how that quickly changed. Without so much as a reason.

[Roshar]

In that group, you're the most towards null.

I put you in the lean scum pile.

Like come on. Take a stance will you?

I don't mind at all that you'd change your opinion of me. It's the fact that you change your opinion of me 1)without prior reason. 2)After huntress expresses interest. That's inconsistent.

It's like you haven't had one solid stance on someone. Starting from Maverick, to froot, to myself, to Mhs, to Maxous.

I

really

don't trust your inconsistencies.

[Roshar]

Willing to lynch someone who isn't anywhere close to L-1 is a strong stance. That shows pretty strong conviction that someone is scum.

You were willing to lynch Max b/c it would save you (and if you were town, that's an understandable view stance to take). Big big difference.

[Roshar]

VOTE: Clumsy

[Roshar]

Going to hopefully add input later today

[Roshar]

Sorry guys. Will get to posting today.

[Roshar]

I'm really curious as to why Nos was NK'd. Did they crumb? Otherwise kinda nonstrategic. I'm not gonna bother with wifom with this (i.e nos voted lowell).

@Huntress, care to share your re-reads of other people?

I am thinking Max is scum here based on wagon jumping. The clumsy wagon remained static while people jumped off Max. If Clumsy is scum, there are hard core bussers there.

@Titus, your early day 2 vote, was this still what warranted it?

[Roshar]

Yeah, the fact that Nos may have crumbed and I missed it. I.e scum are very careful readers. Which may or may not rule out replacements. I dunno.

[Roshar]

I'm not gonna worry about the Nos voting lowell part because I think it's really stupid to think Lowell NK'd Nos b/c of their vote. Then there's wifom. That gives us nothing. So, not gonna bother.

[Roshar]

Instead of voting? I had voted Clumsy before, but unlike half the players in this game, I wanted to explore other players (back when I had more interest in playing the game).

I didn't only turn to you, I addressed the replacements and two other players. I dedicated a separate sentence to you because I felt you in particular hadn't given much feedback (no, I don't count the ,"you're scum! you're scum!" as feedback). If I wanted to move the Clumsy wagon,

I wouldn't appeal to the people already on it.

You're not the lead engineer of the Clumsy wagon. I am. I voted him first. 353. It was followed by Maverick in 358. And I was the one that hammered, so to say I don't want to take the blame for it is simply false.

And her post, damn it. Her.

[Roshar]

And excuse me if I'm not extremely confident in my scum reads. Not everyone plays the game like you do, Lowell. Excuse me if I like to get fresh input on the main wagon (esp after Clumsy had new posts). What is the point of asking players already on the wagon for their recent feedback? Their vote already is on Clumsy. The only logical reason is to see if they've changed their opinions after Clumsy's recent posting. So how the hell is this pushing the Clumsy wagon?

[Roshar]

At this point, two of my main scum reads are dead. The early sheeping of the max wagon is making me me re-think my max stance.

My town reads have shrunk to froot (this would be the first mention) and Apf.

I need to sort my ever growing null reads and see where they stand.

[Roshar]

Oh look who hasn't shown up. Max.

Is this how you usually play, Titus? Most of the players hadn't showed up at this point. So, why post this other than trying to solidify a non-existent scum read on Max?

Unless ofc, you consider this a scum read:

I am thinking Max is scum here based on wagon jumping. The clumsy wagon remained static while people jumped off Max. If Clumsy is scum, there are hard core bussers there.

[Roshar]

If I wanted to move the wagon, Lowell, my vote would have remained on Clumsy. He was my weaker D1 scum read when compared to Max. There would be no reason for me to try to push the Max wagon as much as I did. I only changed my vote to Clumsy when there were hours left in the day and it was clear nobody was going to vote for Max.

I asked all the people on the Clumsy wagon, I didn't just ask you. And I asked for input. I.e What do you

currently

think of Clumsy

now

I.e Has anything changed after his recent posting. Why would I ask the people already on the wagon to reiterate their older stance. That's just ridiculously stupid to do as scum. To prove I was asking about Clumsy's recent posts, just look at the rest of my post. Which points was I discussing?

All his recent posts.

[Roshar]

If I wanted to move the Clumsy wagon forward, I wouldn't have voted Max. I wouldn't have tried to push the Max wagon as hard as I did.


Now let me show you what trying to move a wagon forward looks like, Lowell.

This is an attempt at me pushing the Max wagon

. Notice the difference? This is me asking people who

aren't voting Max

for their view on max in a question that highlights what I thought was scummy.

Indeed.

@

Nosferatu,

(mhs and APF too if you can)

what's your read on Max and him advocating Huntress for the lynch in 1077 (her only post with game content at the time of the scum read was 971 and Jeanne's 857 and 863) and then his subsequent vote on her a couple pages later? Last I remember you were giving Jake a town read (and he gave you a town read as well). I should add Max found Jeane suspicious in 939.

If I wanted to lazily push the Clumsy wagon,

why would l have asked Clumsy to vote for Max with me?

in 1190 Why not just vote Clumsy?

I already had found Clumsy scummy for many reasons (including that post that you quoted). Nobody would have questioned why if I had voted for Clumsy. I freaking created the Clumsy wagon. Why would I be afraid to vote for Clumsy?

What does this show? That I was genuinely pushed away from voting Clumsy after their tone in their defense. It made me hesitate. And I wanted input. That is not the thought process of someone bent on pushing the Clumsy wagon.

[Roshar]

Forgive me if you are only capable of providing bombastic reads. The Clumsy wagon at that point required no extra help from you. I had tried on multiple events to try to get you to speak about anything. The Clumsy wagon was an appropriate talking point because you literally voiced no interest in anything else.

[Roshar]

I saw you respond once to the idea when I posited it here, but that was hardly a defense from the accusation.

Don't worry about it.
I was tired and being a bit snippy.
Maybe I wasn't clear before but I think it's scummy because she has struggled to come up with content to give. I don't think it's case where she's just lurking, I think suspect she

can't

come up with much which would indicate a scum struggling with the game.

i'll vote lowell though because i'm really not inclined to just ignore the nos night-kill.
People will argue WIFOM but nos was not an obvious kill nor a universal strong town-read so i'm inclined to think there was a particular reason for it.
Not like Lowell has been a shining beacon of town play regardless

vote: lowell

I actually think this is a pretty decent explanation to why he voted Lowell. There was no reason for Nos to be NK'd tbh (unless I missed a crumb) and while Max and I clearly disagree on if this implicates Lowell or not, I can see how someone can reach that conclusion.

Titus, you then posted this:

@Maxous, I don't see how.

Why are you voting Lowell out if wifom and not Huntress who you have a scumread on based on play?

For someone who was avidly trying to sort Max, how did you miss this:

I would say the nosferatu kill would implicate Lowell the most to be honest.
He was the only person nos was really against.

I'm with this thinking, and I take the blame.

VOTE: max

^
This was a pretty poor vote anyway.
sheeping titus and "taking blame" for a mislynch he didn't actually hard-push sounds off.

[Roshar]

@Froot, Lowell is saying I'm trying to get him to move the wagon instead of myself. I.e, I want the wagon to move forward, I just want him to do it instead of me.

The assumption implies that I wanted that wagon moved at all (albeit indirectly). That's what I was addressing in my later posts.

After I already pointed my reason for trying to include him and all the people on the clumsy wagon in the conversation.

I can't stop him from failing to see the multiple times I attempted addressing him on his own, and that this was another such attempt.

Also, I think I've proved that I'm not afraid of carrying the responsibility.

Oh, no, trust me, I'm pretty incredulous at your inconsistency.

I'm willing to hammer the moment you've claimed at L-1 so no, I'm fully willing to take the consequences whatever you flip.

This does not come from someone that is too afraid to push Clumsy, and is trying to get others to do it for her.


@Froot, In terms of the weak arguments from Max, let's try to remain non-biased here. His reason was him saying Huntress was struggling to come up with reads, which is a scum thing to do. And this is end of day 2. I'm starting to see some sense in that.

And in terms of his Lowell vote, did you also see 1286, where he gave another reason why he found Lowell suspicious?

[Roshar]

Does this demonstrate a person who wants someone else to push the lynch for them because they don't want to take responsibility?

993 994 995 996


At the end of the day, it depends on you and if you're going to ignore all other aspects of my posting, grab this one post, and make a big jump and assume I meant it for one specific purpose.

[Roshar]

Illogical? Please explain.

[Roshar]

Where did I try to push a lynch because of it?

My stance has always been it's stupid to try to get anything out of the NK (despite the fact that I can see how someone can reach that conclusion). Doesn't change the fact that it surprised me and made me wonder why they went for Nos.

[Roshar]

Nos was a scum read from myself and frozen (earlier) and RC. So, that is why I'm mainly surprised. If they hadn't Nk'd her, I'd have probably continued my scum read on her.

Edit: Yes. I don't agree with it, but I can see how someone can view it that way.

[Roshar]

The confbias has begun.

Tunnel away Lowell.

[Roshar]

No but seriously if I were scum I definitely would have killed Nos.

So yeah she's right about that

.

Where did I say this?

[Roshar]

@Johnny, where did I say, "there was no reason for Nos to be NK'd tbh"?

Please be more accurate next time.

[Roshar]

Maybe scum was comfortable so they just rolled some dice.

To NK someone who had multiple scum reads and who turns out to be a PR. I think this was a more intelligent kill.

Edit:Whoops, my bad.

[Roshar]

myself. I was asking where I said that particular quote

[Roshar]

You don't know (unless you're scum) so trying to make it seem like that kill tells you anything and then trying to push a lynch because of it is just stupid.

You're going to have to explain where exactly I did those two things.

Maybe Nod crumbed or slipped.

Have you even read my previous posts? That was my main suspicion.

[Roshar]

The fact that I can see why he'd jump to that reason does not equal 1) me agreeing to it (as I have clarified multiple times) 2) I'm trying to push a Lowell lynch.

[Roshar]

Because some people do try to analyze NK's. Again, the Nos kill came out of nowhere. The first knee jerk reaction may be to look at who Nos voted/scum read before they died. A lot of town votes are stupid and I don't agree with them. My concern was not with Max reaching a 'dumb' conclusion, it's with people's over-reaction to his every post. That is what's making my rethink my Max read.

[Roshar]

The possibility that her neighbour being scum is pretty high after her NK, imo. I doubt the neighbour would come out, as either alignment.

@Johnny, what do you mean 'good?

[Roshar]

No, I don't completely think my vote on Clumsy is a last minute hammer either. His quick read changes at end of day added more reason for me to hammer. But just to clarify, I would have lynched him regardless if the max wagon didn't take, as he was also a scum read.

If I didn't want to take the responsibility for the Clumsy lynch, I wouldn't have hammered. Consider my reason why I backed off the Clumsy wagon for some time and pursued other reads. All the people voting him didn't bother. I could have easily not bothered either and fit right in. To say I left the wagon so I wouldn't take the blame for the Clumsy wagon is like saying, "ahah! you felt hesitant about lynching town! You must have done it on purpose so you can use it!" Like it's damned if you, damned if you don't. You don't provide me an option if I was town and was actually hesitant.

[Roshar]

That was at froot

[Roshar]

But, merci

I'm also a she, by the by.

[Roshar]

and omg, not buddying &63&*@Q#^( before lowell jumps on that

[Roshar]

@Froot, here's my thought process on why the neighbor slot has a big possibility of being scum. Correct me if I'm wrong in my following assumptions.

So, Day 1 a town neighbor was NK'd. One who had multiple scum reads enough to make you wonder why they would have been NK'd.
If scum were their neighbor I can imagine Nos being a pretty good candidate for their NK because 1) The fact that neighbors sometimes have PR 2)The scum neighbor would be under more pressure talking to town one on one.

Either way, if Nos' neighbor is town, they shouldn't come out. They'll be getting suspicion from town and possible NK from scum.

[Roshar]

you have literally only elaborated on one read.

I'm only pushing one read at the moment. The others are sitting on the back burner because I want to reread some stuff in context first and then update my reads. I should be able to do some of that tomorrow.

Your vote preceded the back and fourth between lowell and rosh. What are your thoughts on lowell's charge?

huh.

so I read this, looked back and you're right.

Huntress votes Roshar for a quite a while.
Lowell and Roshar have a big back and forth and then Huntress...writes #1371 and pops out again.
like, didn't even address or comment on it at all.

yeah..yeah.
she likely is scum afterall

unvote, vote: Huntress

additional point: I thought jeanne was scummy and I think Huntress is. 2 people independently scummy in the same slot? (not to mention how KT was a pile of null)
This is prolly where I want to go.

Had Huntress commented on a bunch of things but specifically left me out, I'd have agreed. But her post was in essence a prod-dodge. She commented on nothing. So explain to me what made you think she avoided my interaction with Lowell, instead of reaching the conclusion that she's simply inactive.

[Roshar]

@Froot, let's see. I got my content from mafiawiki, and from what is stated there

1) In addition, Neighbors have been known to possess other power roles

2) Scum players, particularly those that do not like playing as scum, will not be able to maintain a pro-Town appearance for very long if engaged in dialogue like if they were a Mason

I find it suspicious that a neighbor would die N1. From these two points, I also think it is a logical conclusion to find the other neighbor suspicious.

I really don't understand how the fact that the neighbor would be considered suspicious isn't occurring to you.

I'm not scum-reading a player. I'm considering a very possible reason why Nos was NK'd.

-If there was suspicion that Nos was a PR, because sometimes neighbours have a PR, it might be thought useful for scum to have an avenue into the thoughts of that PR.-

That's assuming that 1) Nos will trust a random player with her thoughts and targets.
2)If scum neighbor assumes his neighbor is also a PR they'd rather keep her alive to see who she targets so they can avoid it.
Do you really think if scum neighbor caught hint that Nos actually has a PR they wouldn't simply NK her?

Yes, I helped create the suspicion that neighbor is suspicious. Because it's straight forward logic to me. I'd rather do that, and tell a potential town neighbor not to come out than pretend I didn't find the association scummy at all.

I think they'd be a possible NK target from scum for the same reason I quoted from mafia scum point 1. The possibility of another power role, like Nos had.

Solely scummy? No. Enough information? No. By all means, neighbor could be town. But the association remains, and it will throw suspicion on the neighbor slot.

In terms of you not thinking there's more suspicion one-on-one, I disagree. I've played skype mafia games and private message ones as well, and one-on-one can be pretty scary. I remember when I would be interrogated by town (when I was scum) I'd put the player up for NK because I was super paranoid I'd be caught. Because it's one-on-one

ALL

of Nosferatu's focus will be on her neighbor.

[Roshar]

I do think that's what happened. When I said pick Clumsy or Max, everyone picked Clumsy. I had no case on either of them. I hadn't read. So why would one be more popular than the other? Because Maxous is probably scum.

I'm not saying we should lynch Maxous to verify it. I'm just saying it's a very low risk lynch that has upside even if wrong.

Yes, but we had 10 days left when you voted him. 11 other players to engage with, and we should settle on pushing D1's wagon because it wouldn't take?

Have you caught up yet?

I think Maxous is flailing scum here, looking for things to attack. He sees that his initial offer on Lowell is gaining little traction, so he sheep's the first case stated by someone else on Huntress. His big deal is Huntress didn't comment. Yet, Maxous completely ignored

the allegation by Lowell that Roshar was fishing for votes on him.

Lowell was saying I was fishing for votes on Clumsy, unless I misunderstood something here.

No but seriously if I were scum I definitely would have killed Nos.

So yeah she's right about that

.

Where did I say this?

@Lowell

[Roshar]

I would consider both perspectives equally, and with no bias if Nos wasn't Nk'd.

[Roshar]

To point out that scum/town neighbor wouldn't come out. And if town, they should esp not come out.

[Roshar]

Where did I say that I thought you NK'd Nos because they had their vote on you? And who's case?

[Roshar]

I would read it and think, ' I better not come out'.

I didn't consider the value of the conversation, mainly because value to me would mean a PR result. One they wouldn't get at that point. If there's another form of value to be gained, please enlighten me.

No, this kind of conversation is a realistic view of how a neighbor would be viewed imo. I didn't follow it up with a, 'don't come out if you're a town neighbor ' but it was clear I thought that wasn't clever.

Except I did provide a reason why town neighbor wouldn't come out.

It's exactly the same reason that scum neighbor wouldn't come out.

The Nos NK.

While you don't think the neighbor would be considered suspicious, others clearly thought so. Your refusal to consider that others can have a different opinion is really frustrating. I've clearly explained to you how I came to that thought process and you said it was subjective and that we disagree. Then you return again to point A that this is done by scum. If I was scum and neighbor was town, I'd hope they'd come out to throw shade at them. Not emphasize the fact that I think they'd be considered suspicious.

Like, if this was day three, and Nos had used their ability, then I'd probably think it's okay to take the risk of coming out as town neighbor with Nos' results. But I can't see the value of taking that risk with no results.

[Roshar]

@Roshar - I'm not questioning your opinion and I'm not questioning that the neighbour could be viewed with suspicion. I'm questioning that this has been mentioned in the thread three times and it's speculation and won't lead anywhere. I don't think speculation is helpful and I'm more worried about it when it fosters suspicion because that's what I think is done by scum players.

I wouldn't call it speculation. I'd call it an association. That's where we disagree.

I didn't consider the value of the conversation, mainly because value to me would mean a PR result. One they wouldn't get at that point. If there's another form of value to be gained, please enlighten me.

Do you mean about the conversation in the neighbourhood? You want me to try and come up with possible valuable things that could have been said?

I want you to back up your idea that there is some value to be had that doesn't involve a PR result. Hypothetical situations. I'm taking into consideration that I've never played a game that involved a neighbor and that there may be value I haven't considered

If I was scum and neighbor was town, I'd hope they'd come out to throw shade at them. Not emphasize the fact that I think they'd be considered suspicious.

WIFOM

I really don't want to get bogged down with more speculation because I don't think it's helpful.

Neither do I really. But you kept asking persistently about this. So, meh.

[Roshar]

Max, what is your opinion on the allegations made by Lowell against roshar?

Yo,

Mhs

, what is your opinion on the

allegation

(singular) Lowell made against me?

You've been stating recently that you've found me off for one reason or another, and you've stated you'll embark on a re-read of my ISO. You haven't held true with that.

sidenote: If Lowell is town I think APF is scum based on APF's vote earlier. Just my feeling.

@

Maxous

, can you explain how you came to this conclusion.

Also, can you respond to my post 1417.


@

Titus

1419 was for you.


@Lowell

1423, please.

[Roshar]

well, what do you want.
I'm trying to explain to people to lynch the lurk-scum but everyone is being a backseat driver nitpicking

how

i'm trying to push the read.
Somebody explain why they think she's town then.

It's not a matter of thinking she's town. Just that there's so little from that her absence reads actual inactivity. And it can look really opportunistic to point at her.

[Roshar]

1)I've only been in one completed game in mafia scum. That's Wiki 2 Mafia. I was town.

2) Not here, no. I've played off site in pm games (maybe 15 or so). They're much shorter (5 days long) and are heavily pm based. Everything usually happens behind the scenes.

[Roshar]

I think Maxous is flailing scum here, looking for things to attack. He sees that his initial offer on Lowell is gaining little traction, so he sheep's the first case stated by someone else on Huntress. His big deal is Huntress didn't comment. Yet, Maxous completely ignored the allegation by Lowell that Roshar was fishing for votes on him.

You mean he accused Huntress of not analyzing my interaction with Lowell, yet he didn't analyze Lowell himself - who was his scum read. If that's what you meant then, I can see your point. I.e He should be analyzing a slot he finds scummy himself. Although I've learned town can find people scummy for things they've unconsciously done themselves. So, on the whole, I'd be hesitant to derive much out of this.

What I thought was scummy was that despite Huntress not commenting on anything, and was essentially prod-dodging, he made it seem like she was purposely avoiding commenting on me.

[Roshar]

V/la until mid-monday.

Would have preferred to wait until max replied to me, but he essentially ignored my post a second time.

VOTE: Maxous

[Roshar]

L-1, I believe.

[Roshar]

The best display of someone who kept actively avoiding both the max and clumsy lynch on D1 is Huntress, despite finding

both

slots scummy/not town lean at one point or another.

Huntress on Clumsy:

This is her finding Clumsy scummy after catching up:

My initial scum reads are Roshar, Froot Loop and Clumsy but there are one or two others who haven't made an impression on me and I need to look back to see why that is.

This is her realizing she was late on the Clumsy wagon:

Still not sure about Clumsy, but I'm liking the wagon on him even less than I liked his earlier posts, and his later posts seem to be better.

****************************

Huntress on Max:

This is her not only saying she'd vote for him if the time came, but saying she didn't like his posting D1.

In my case it's because I'm not very keen on either wagon. Clumsy was an initial scum read but his later posts have been better. It's the other way round with Jake/Max. Jake's early posting looked null to town

but Max not so much. Out of those two I'd prefer to vote Max.

This is Huntress' response when I asked her why she wasn't voting for Max when there was one day left in D1.

@Huntress, any reason why you're taking your time voting Max? With less than a day left?

There was more than a day left when I made my last post so I was quite ok with leaving the vote till today.

Call it a reluctance to vote the same way as my main scum read.

Refusing to vote because of someone on the wagon? Really? The reluctance is you not wanting to get your hands dirty.

Anyone up for a flashwagon on Roshar? Or even Lowell? I'd really prefer to lynch them to either of the current wagons.

This was end of D1,

there was less than a day left

. The fact that you suggested a flash lynch at that point is ludicrous. This is not something town would have considered had town been faced with two slots they knew nothing about (and had found one of them scummy at one point, and the other not a town lean). This is scum knowing both alignments and wanting to demonstrate strong adversity to lynching town.



When she finally votes for Maxous after prodding from me:

So how about Roshar or Lowell as alternatives?


I don't think there's a realistic chance of lynching Roshar now, judging by recent posts and looking back at the ISO's of those who haven't posted yet today,

so I'm moving my vote now but I'll be around for the rest of the day and I'm still very much open to a lynch on Lowell if enough people are willing

.

Vote: Maxous

"I really don't want to vote max, but I have no choice. Look how reluctant I am!"

So you literally disappeared most of D1 and never pushed any other lynch, and you come out in the final hours of the day and demonstrate strong reluctance over the vote, strong enough that you're willing to attempt to divert the lynch with less than a day left. It's so disingenuous.

Your D2 performance makes little sense too. Without providing so much as a reason, Max becomes your number 1 scum read. For someone who showed constant reluctance on voting him D1, there is absolutely no progression that led to that stance.


VOTE: Huntress




What do you think of my analysis,

Garmr

?

I'm finding your vote on APF interesting.

[Roshar]

Froot, you keep bringing up the pointless discussion on the neighbor slot like I kept yapping and yapping on my own about it for no reason. You were the one who kept asking me multiple times about as if it was the most pertinent thing in the world. And now you are saying you find it scummy for clarifying? Are you listening to yourself?

[Roshar]

Also, to continue rabbiting on about the neighbour speculation - this was discussion that wouldn't actually lead to a lynch or present another option apart from Max.

So it's totally free for scum to discuss without worrying about derailing a mislynch.

You keep referring to it as a, 'discussion'. It was one comment. You keep making it seem like I spent so much time discussing this like I wanted to avoid actual discussion that would lead to a lynch.

You didn't refer to me here specifically. But you and I were engaged primarily in this discussion for a lot of D2. So, why are you surprised that I'm considering that I'm part of who you're speaking about?

[Roshar]

Can you explain this more. I don't seem to follow.

About Lowell's Roshar push - he voted for Max, Max called him out, then Lowell pushed Roshar. Considering the pressure on Max, I think it's an unlikely scum play to move onto Roshar. There seems to be more value and it'd be legitimate to continue pushing Max.

That makes me recontextualise Lowell's push on Roshar, FA_Q2's questioning of Titus and APF's vote on FA_Q2. I'd also say that Johnny and Titus' behaviour in D2 fits this description of possible scum play from reading D2 in this context. Garmr came in and talked about APF but it was a little late in the day (because of the replacement, totally null) to be considered for this point.

^This as well. Each case, explain it individually so I can try to follow what conclusion you derived.

[Roshar]

Good point.

[Roshar]

Was that to me? I thought you were addressing Froot's referral to me as ML.

[Roshar]

@Johnny, why do you think Garmr is town?

[Roshar]

Lowell, describe your town read on Huntress.

[Roshar]

@Froot, what is your read on Huntress?

[Roshar]

That first quote relates to my initial reads, made after a first read through the thread. The second quote comes from the post where I followed up on all my reads, not just that one, after checking back on stuff, reading some ISOs, and looking at the wagons. Your jumping between the wagons was one of the things that put me off them. In fact, at the time of my post you were on neither of them.

You're saying you found Clumsy suspicious on your first read. Then after you started looking at individual players and wagons, you started backing away. That is exactly what I just described. After looking at the wagon, and realizing you were late, you backed away.

Yes. And I did. So?

Again, you say you don't like Max's posting but based on the wagon (me), you back off again.

Nope. The reluctance was me not wanting to join either of the two wagons which you were pushing when I had a strong read on you and only weak reads on them. I did not refuse to vote so don't try to pretend that I did.

You refused to vote until the last day. And how convenient to try to avoid both lynches using wagons as the reason. "I don't like Clumsy's wagon" and "My main scum read is on Max' wagon, my hands are tied".

It's not uncommon for wagons to switch late in the Day, especially when the existing wagons feel like a compromise, which was the impression I had here. I already had a slight town read on Clumsy and your attacks on Jake had made me less eager to vote that slot. There were a few people willing to consider Lowell, if not you, so I thought it worth a chance. Unfortunately, hardly anyone was willing to move.

I was only in the game for half of Day one and a lot of that time was spent catching up. It was not the final hours of the day, but a few days earlier that I expressed doubts over the Clumsy wagon, and my exchanges with you should have made you aware that I wasn't too keen on the other one either. I find it disingenuous that you are ignoring this.

Had your performance

after you caught up

in the day been any different, I would have considered it. But you barely pushed any reads. Your scum read on me for instance. It was me who pushed you to make a case. Otherwise you would have been more than happy to keep it at, "gut read" and "voting players based on playstyle". You give out reads without explanation, with promises of going back/ISOing to see what made you feel that way. And at this point I think it's a pretense. The only read you tried to explain, you didn't bother pushing, then you come out end of D1 trying to divert the lynches, something that was so obviously impossible to do. It's so obvious to me that your motive wasn't in trying to divert the lynch. Your motive was to express your reluctance to go with max.

Didn't you read the dialogue between Max and I? That and his selective scumhunting, along with my read on the page 54 tussel between Lowell and yourself, tipped the balance.

Yes, I read the dialogue between Max and yourself. Several times, actually. And I still don't see how he became your number 1 scum read. Why are you providing it as a reason that because I moved down your list, it made Max more scummy? That is not the way town reaches conclusions about players. That is scum trying to maintain a list.

I will

not

be moving my vote from Huntress today.

[Roshar]

FaQ, I'd also like your read on huntress.

[Roshar]

Also, all votes on my are opportunistic as hell. There's the scum trying to score an easy mislynch type, and there's the townie "well, I don't know wtf is happening but at least if I vote Lowell I'll be able to hem and haw afterwards about how unhelpful he was and I won't take the blame." Make sure if you're voting me you're the first type-- I'll take care of them.

Hey Lowell. Which batch would you place Huntress in when she wanted you divert the max lynch and lynch you instead (D1)?

[Roshar]

I care very little of your read on me and I am not going to divert this issue. You seem to forget that you also are being sorted.

I'm going to ask you to answer that question again.

[Roshar]

With regards to the first part, I'll explain a little later.

Huntress replaces in mid-day 1 and has a lot of catching up to do. When she does, she doesn't engage with any of her scum reads. Keeps promising she'll do better. Keeps promising she'll re-read her slots and clarify. Keeps promising she'll provide reasons. But then she disappears. She comes in every 2 days or so. Let's break it down.

-She replaces in on the 9th of April.
-Catches up by the 13th. Throws three empty scum reads
-Rechecks some stuff' on the 16th where she explains only one scum read (in one sentence) and her second scum read, Froot, she couldn't remember why (she still can't remember why until today). It's like she picks the two players she knows aren't going to get lynched. Her scum read on Clumsy is retracted. When he's at L-5.
-Pops back on the 18th, because I started questioning her.

A serious case of active lurking.

In all of her 9 content posts in D1, she mentioned Clumsy and Max scummy at some points. She withdrew her Clumsy scum read when he was at L-5 because of his wagon. She shows preference in lynching Maxous as she didn't find his posts town like his predecessor (when choosing between lynches). Yet she doesn't vote him, with less than 24 hrs left in the day. Until I start cornering her about it. In which case she reluctantly votes, reminding us time and time again that she really doesn't want to do this. She's so adverse to lynching Max, that she's willing to have a flash lynch on....Lowell. With less than 24 hrs left. When more than half the players at that time were either replacing out (shaddow and mav) or inactive. That would have been impossible. And she knew that. She knew there was no way in hell that the lynch could be diverted. She was just trying to look like she didn't want the Max lynch.


All of this active lurking and now, she's promising to stay for the entirety of the last day (D1). If she wanted to actually make a difference in the lynch pattern, she would have attempted to pursue her scum reads in the 10 days that she had in the game. Not post once every 2-3 days. And now she's trying to pretend like she gonna try her best to help with like 20 hrs left in the day.

[Roshar]

I'm so surprised, Huntress.

[Roshar]

I'm so genuinely surprised you'd vote me. About as genuine as your attempt to divert the lynch D1.

[Roshar]

minimal explanation, maximum effect and clear reads on players

Minimum explanation does not equal maximum effect. All you succeed in doing is getting people to glaze over your posts. Ideal if you're scum, anti-town if you're town. I'm not going to allow myself to ignore you this game b/c of how unpleasant it is interacting with you.


Interesting that you and Huntress have the same reason why you think I'm scummy (I'm trying too hard).


Does your description of Huntress' play style fit someone who would think:

"well, I don't know wtf is happening but at least if I vote Lowell I'll be able to hem and haw afterwards about how unhelpful he was and I won't take the blame."

Or do you believe as town that she genuinely thinks you're scummy?


D1, the only mention of even finding you possibly scummy was here:

Not liking Lowell's eagerness to end the Day but I'm not sure that he'd be so blatant about it as scum.

End of D1 she was willing to divert

two

lynches at L-2 to try to lynch you instead. And this is her

only

stated reason why ^ The fact that you didn't even bother commenting on this is ridiculous.

D2 she puts you as number two scummiest player, which is super interesting. Why weren't you number 1 scummiest? This is the post:

In the page 54 tussel between

Lowell and Roshar I actually think Roshar's version of events sounds more likely

. This moves Roshar down my list a bit.

A plain farmer's vote switch from Lowell to FA_Q2 in 1403, coming as it did after FA_Q2 voted Lowell in 1395 made me wonder if

apf had been distancing from Lowell earlier.

I have next to no problem with Froot Loop's posting in Day two so I'm dropping her from my scum list for now. I'm still curious about what gave me that initial scum read but to find it would mean rereading Day one so that is going to have to wait.

I'm going to look into mhsmith a bit more as something seems off there, although it may just be playstyle.

My lynch pool is currently Max, Lowell, Rosher, apf, in that order.

Vote: Maxous

She mentions you twice 1) Between you and I, my events are what she buys. 2) Apf is distancing from you. She didn't provide 1 reason why she thought max was scum. But guess who goes on to become her number 1 scum read? Max, not you. This is starting to become a reoccurring theme. Points at you but never actually means to lynch you.

And it's super interesting too that she reached the conclusion that APF is trying to distance from you.

There is a foregone conclusion there that you're scum

. I'm starting to believe it's a slip. I remember reading that the first time and thinking, "how the hell did she reach that conclusion, I wouldn't have read that and thought in a million years that APF was distancing himself from Lowell".

[Roshar]

FaQ, I'd also like your read on huntress.

Slight town read. I do not get the scum read on huntress. Your case centers around her avoiding the Clumsy wagon but considering huntress was on the Max wagon - its counter and just as likely to be the lynch and just as town - it really is not a valid point.

The other side of your read seems to essentially be a lurker read. I have found that lurker is essentially non-alignment indicative unless there is a reason for the lurking.

My case had two parts. Her avoiding Clumsy, then her avoiding Max. Just because she voted Max like 20 hrs before end of day when I started pressuring her about her lack of vote, doesn't mean she wanted to be on the counter-wagon.

Can you please read post 1578 and tell me. Do you buy her trying to divert the lynch?

The other side of my read is the clash between her being an active lurker, and her attempt to be helpful town! by being active in the last 20 hrs of the day by diverting the lynch on a player she never actually scum read (lowell).

And finally, if you still think she's town, can you please explain to me what part of her posting gives you that impression.

Would really appreciate this.

[Roshar]

@Froot


The suggestion is scummy because she showed very strong adversity to lynching Max on D1. Why? Why would she be willing to take the risk of a flash lynch in less that 20 hrs when she had found Maxous' posting not town? And who would she rather lynch? Lowell. Did she ever scum-read Lowell? No. But all of a sudden she feels so strong about not lynching Max. Like I'd understand if she wanted to lynch me instead b/c I was such a strong scum read, and had tried convincing the masses and pushing me through D1. But no. She comes out last day, appeals to people about not lynching the two lynch candidates by suggesting Lowell (b/c her lack of push on me D1 wasn't exactly going to get me lynched).

Town would not react this way. When faced with two players who had performed scummy at some point or another. Like Clumsy for me, for example. His recent tone felt more town, but I still felt he was damned by his previous posting. And I was more than ready to see his flip. As town, faced with two lynches end of D1, you wouldn't back away from the lynch because, "his wagon is not making me feel better". This is not the thought process of someone who doesn't know alignment. When you have doubt/suspicion about someone, that doubt never goes away. And when you understand the futility of the situation (20 hrs 'till end of day), you're willing to lynch suspicious reads, even if they're not the strongest.


Regards to your second point, do you think Huntress displayed apathy? Do you think her choosing the two most active posters as scum reads (you and I) shows apathy? Do you think her stating her willingness to stay all day next to her computer to divert the lynch shows apathy? I'd say she's quite invested.

And in terms of the last quote, it's obviously my interpretation, based on what she said, ("I'm not liking that wagon") of why Huntress decided to change her read on Clumsy. I.e, she liked his wagon much better when it was L-3 (when she first gave out the scum read), than when it was L-5. She didn't want to be the one who put him at L-1. Forgive me for not adding, "In my opinion"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GbxFLA62Bc

And I'm talking mainly about the D1 wagons. I did discuss her D2 scum choices in regards to Lowell 1581

@APF, how would you evaluate that 'slip' if Huntress flipped scum? And what would you think about Lowell's stance on Huntress? I'm mainly referring to the fact:
1)She was on his list of people he was not okay lynching D2
2) That he thinks people voting him are, "opportunistic as hell". Yet, when Huntress was apparently willing to divert two L-5 lynches on him D1, he didn't comment.

[Roshar]

Eh, with regards to the D1 lynch wagons, I meant to say, she liked it better when it was at L-4, then when it was at L-2,

in my opinion

[Roshar]

I remember reading that the first time and thinking, "how did she reach that conclusion, I wouldn't have read that and thought in a million years that APF was distancing himself from Lowell".

It wasn't from reading the posts but rather from looking at the votes. It was an isolated point, but when I looked at the votes on my spreadsheet it stuck out to me. More a note for later, than anything else.

Makes less sense from a vote perspective. And this still operated under the assumption that Lowell was scum.

[Roshar]

Nope, not apathy. If I was apathetic about it I wouldn't be playing. But I do have a problem that it takes me longer than most people to read, think and type.

It takes you ten days to make 9 content posts?

Max is right. You are struggling to make reads.

[Roshar]

Grr, @APF, I meant two L-2 lynches.

[Roshar]

You'll be around for the rest of the day.

I assume you post on your computer. I'm sorry, was it your phone?

You'll be around/next to your computer/phone monitoring the thread until the day ends.

Or did you mean something else?

[Roshar]

Semantics. You'll be 'around' your computer. Until end of day. Monitoring the thread (I.e checking from time to time). In an attempt to divert the lynch.

[Roshar]

First of all, Nos did not do, "almost the same thing". Nos asked if anyone thought Lowell was town, and was willing to discuss his play style compared to previous games and generate something useful. He didn't disappear after claiming he wasn't comfortable with a Max lynch and was up for a Lowell lynch. And it's kinda interesting to note, two players actually responded positively to Huntress' suggestion of a Lowell lynch. Yet, when she came back, she never pushed it. She just repeated herself. You'd think if someone is truly interested in changing the lynch to Lowell, they'd actually make a case against him. Like I'm not even expecting a case at this point. Just point to something mildly scummy that Lowell did. She never put any effort because,

in my opinion

, she wasn't serious about a Lowell lynch. You ask why this is scummy? Because she's appearing to extend a hand to help, when she has no intention of helping,

imo.

Difference between Nosferatu and Huntress is that Nosferatu thought of Max as town, while Huntress said she didn't find his posting town.

Difference between Clumsy and Huntress is that Clumsy was the main D1 wagon and 1) didn't want to be forced to vote for someone just to save his own skin 2) Had town read Max.

Yes, there was more discussion about Lowell. That she wasn't a part of. She never said she found him scummy herself.

[Roshar]

@Froot

Huntress was much more willing to lynch Lowell over Max D1, correct?

D2, what changed? What made her switch that stance?
She puts a scum association with Lowell and APF. She said she buys my side of the story more than Lowell. So, she's starting to articulate her scum read on Lowell. Indirectly, but better than nothing. Notice she's never directly scum reading Lowell. Anywho.

Max must have done something worse though. He was her number one scum read D2. Let's ISO her, shall we? We're left with her 1299 and 1323 where she's not liking that he's saying 'she's struggling with her reads."
But wait, Max said the same thing D1.

But D1, she was really reluctant in lynching Max.
D1 she preferred a Lowell lynch.

Why then, D2, does she reverse her stance?

In my opinion

, she never actually thought a Lowell lynch would go through D1. She continued to show interest in lynching Lowell 8 hrs before end of day but doesn't bother giving one reason why Lowell is a better lynch. That is why I think it's not a genuine attempt at trying to lynch Lowell.

D2, she conveniently tucks Lowell into number 2 scum position, and hops onto the max train. (all in my opinion ofc)

Let me be clear, in case anyone may still not be getting what I'm driving at. I think Lowell and Huntress are scum buddies.

I will only lynch Huntress today though.

[Roshar]

Yo, Huntress. You haven't made a case on me ever since D1 where you said you had a gut read and didn't like that I was scum reading people based on play style.

You've barely articulated your scum read on Lowell as well.

I think it's about time you ISO your two biggest scum reads and build a case.

[Roshar]

Lowell, where are you, old friend? You can't just scum read me and disappear like that. Tell me where I'm trying to hard. ISO me. Build your case.

[Roshar]

Can't wait.

And Lowell too. I'd really like a summary of your thoughts on his play this game. And what made him scummy to you D1 and D2. And if he's still scummy to you D3.

@APF, I'm gonna agree here in that is off that FaQ vote parked Clumsy D1 despite not knowing why Clumsy was scummy. What is your current read on Lowell?

FaQ, what is your current read on Lowell?

[Roshar]

Yo mhs, you there?

[Roshar]

I can see how my push on Huntress may look like I suffer confbias. I am working backwards. B/c I know she's scum.

I role blocked her N2. And there were no NKs for that night.

I had planned to come out a little later (three days before end of day) to get some reactions on her case and possible associations, but I think we've got enough.

At this point, I think mafia know who I am due to my heavy push on Huntress (I'm assuming mafia knows which one of them is using the NK role), so there's really no point in trying to keep this any longer.

Day 3 Begins!

No kill occurred.

I will

not

be moving my vote from Huntress today.

I will only lynch Huntress today though.

[Roshar]

I'm down for lynching Lowell tomorrow though.

[Roshar]

Town Even-Night Roleblocker. I'm assuming (unless town is super under powered) that there's an Odd-night role blocker.

[Roshar]

How does role-blocking not block kills? What would be the point of a town Roleblocker then?

This is off of mafiascum.

More simply - if the player has to submit an action to the moderator, a Roleblocker can block it.

No, I wasn't Nos' neighbor.

[Roshar]

Town

Generally, Roleblockers are intended to try to stop the Night-kill, or stop scum power roles in situations where they are known. In practice, Roleblockers are more likely to stop Town power roles from working early on, but as the game goes on Roleblockers become much more powerful. In particular, when there is one Mafioso left Roleblockers can be used to confirm players - if the Mafia's kill goes through, whoever was blocked that Night isn't the last Mafioso. Inversely, if a Roleblocker blocks someone and the Mafia's kill disappears, there is a decent chance that the Roleblocker blocked the scum who was performing the kill (though this is not necessarily the case, given that other power roles may have had a hand in it, or the scum decided to not kill anyone as a framing gambit). In summary, Town Roleblockers are almost liabilities early on but become much stronger if they survive to lategame, so they have net positive value for Town.

[Roshar]

Why didn't you watch your biggest scum read, I.e me?

[Roshar]

No wait I'm confusing watcher with tracker

[Roshar]

Doesn't explain the no NK.

[Roshar]

Was out all day, and won't be able to post something much, yet can't prod dodge either. Will post my current thoughts later, but here's what I'm feeling based on the the posts above me. Johnny and Froot town.

So scum let me live. I considered this as I wouldn't be able to use my ability last night anyway. I'm going to have to get it right tonight.

@APF, I'm not too familiar with set-ups, but assuming scum thought there may be a watcher role in the game, then I can see why avoiding me would be ideal. Your version of things is very possible though. It would explain the mhs kill.

VOTE: Lowell

Huntress keeps mentioning she finds Lowell scummy, but never provides reasons or pushes his lynch. His vote on Johnny doesn't resonate with me either and is so conveniently placed after Heuristically, that it makes me question that association. Three other dead town found him scummy as well (Nos, max, clumsy). Then there was the time when Huntress thought Apf was distancing himself from Lowell (when APF unvoted lowell), i.e, there's a foregone conclusion that Lowell is scum.
His attitude when I was questioning him was not of someone who wants to clear/explain himself, rather, it was of someone who wants to avoid getting into debate.

During the debate between myself and him, he later admits that I'm correct, yet, still wants to lynch me anyway.

Go back and look at Lowell's posts and tell me what part of it makes you think they're coming from town.


@Heuristically, welcome to the game. You say I made some good points, are any of those points in reference to Lowell?

[Roshar]

Also, throwing shade on anyone who may think you're scummy is so very convenient. Self-preservation is a scum trait to me.

[Roshar]

@Froot, I did consider something odd about my interaction with titus, and this was when she asked me to make a case on Huntress without using quotes. She had shown concern that I wasn't willing to change my vote so early in the day 1576 . My reply was that I would, "explain later" regarding not changing my vote, and then I explained my case 1578. She voted Huntress (1582), and it made me consider that she may have known what I was hinting about.

Your point (mhs as well I believe) is that scum wouldn't have defended huntress knowing she was most likely caught by a role-blocker. And I agree. Would you feel better about players who town read her on D3?

Garmr didn't have a town read on her when I asked him in 1573. I also didn't like his APF vote early D3 for reasons he had used in D2. Don't like the Johnny vote either, or the reasoning behind it (frozen was over-reacting, she was playing us good, Johnny was using the, "if I was scum" which is apparently scummy")

FoS Heuristically

.


Lowell, you aren't obvious town to me. I'm going to feel like an idiot if you flip scum, but it is a good point that you town read Huntress quite strongly, and scum read me, in the sense that I don't think you would have done that knowing who I might be.

With that said


VOTE: Titus

[Roshar]

Because froot has made a point about scum not defending huntress after she'd been Rb'd. One that makes a lot of sense. And that is making me reassess my view on Lowell. As much as I'm tempted to vote for his actions D3, his town read on huntress and scum read on me wouldn't fall in line with scum who knew huntress was role blocked and that role blocker may come out.

It'd make more sense for scum to try to jump on the huntress wagon, esp if they felt I'd be claiming later. And Titus' interaction with me and her showing concern about me not moving my vote and her subsequent huntress vote after I hinted on explaining later why I wasn't willing to change my vote (ie I was going to claim).

[Roshar]

Ugh double post, my internet was being laggy, didn't think the first sent.

Deleted duplicate post.
~Ircher

[Roshar]

VOTE: Lowell


Second, the only reason Roshar claims is if he doesn't get the votes without claiming.

The scum would hard defend Huntress or offer counters or lurk to get Roshar's claim

. The same people who quick voted Huntress are Froot/Lowell. If they hard townread Huntress, why didn't they pressure Roshar's claim? Because they knew it was true.

Or the obvious conclusion that they had town read her and weren't convinced with my case. Until I claimed and backed it with a 'No kill" on D3.

1) I don't think Froot voted Huntress.

2) I'd assume they didn't pressure my claim because 1) I had shown strong suspicion on Huntress from my first post D3, strong unwillingness to remove my vote, and backed up with the 'No kill' for the night, it came together.

The part in bold. You really think scum would counter claim? When simply lynching Huntress would out them? No, scum would recognize a sinking ship when they'd see one, cut their losses and would try to use it to their benefit.

And speaking of scum trying to get me to claim, you showing concern over me not changing my vote would demonstrate that perfectly.

Froot did the same thing, she showed concern over me not changing my vote so early. Only difference is that Froot did not switch over and vote Huntress after I hinted about claiming.

[Roshar]

Yes, players had responses to my case. Some developed their town read as the interaction went on, some hopped on. The players that developed a town read, would you feel better about them?

I don't see a Titus/Johnny scum team. I don't think titus would be that blatant with her scum buddy (if she was scum). I also don't see titus scum calling her scum buddy 'obvious town.'

Hope it's not a break : (

[Roshar]

Everyone else didn't buy my case. And I can see why as I was working backwards. I was actively looking at everything she posted from scum perspective, so I'm not surprised people thought I was tunneling or suffered confbias.

You initiated a Huntress discussion with Johnny after my case and his attitude was, "meh" for the most part. That has kinda been his attitude for most of this game and I'm thinking he's just not that into the game or it's a play style thing.

[Roshar]

Take some Ibuprofen for the pain, and place something cold on it and forget the game for now, is my advice. Promise not to lynch you in the meantime : D

[Roshar]

Fair enough.

[Roshar]

@Apf, perhaps scum weren't sure, but I think they at least had an idea of who I may be after 1) The no NK 2) After I went after Huntress 1st post D3 and was clear about not moving my vote. Yeah, some people say things like they aren't going to move their vote, but in context after what happened, I'd say this would send a message to scum.

They could have been stopped by a protection/BP correct, however that argument becomes weaker when you factor in that I started to drill a huntress case immediately D3. And assuming they knew who made the NK, it becomes a matter of connecting the dots, imo. If they weren't really sure about my role, I'd assume scum would subtly try to push me to give more info/claim. It's funny, Titus summarized this thought process much earlier than I.

[Roshar]

@froot I'm referring to FAQ's slight town read in 1567, Lowell's town read, and APF (small town lean) in 1585.

[Roshar]

I.e, do you feel better about those slots because they town-read huntress.

[Roshar]

Scum reading him,

Will explain properly tonight

[Roshar]

I do think Lowell's tactic along with others not voting Huntress does draw out the claim. Scum wouldn't want to be seen attacking Roshar, but get a claim out regardless.

I disagree here. One thing that happened is that I clearly hinted that I was going to "explain later", I.e claim. The only players that would have understood this would be scum. After knowing my intentions, I would expect scum to agree with me and vote Huntress in an attempt to distance themselves and cut their losses. Either that or maintain a neutral read on her. I would not expect scum to town read Huntress and scum read me in an attempt to get me to claim. Otherwise they'd have to consider the scrutiny they'd place themselves under when Huntress gets lynched.

[Roshar]

Max was lynched day 2. Look at who he voted and tunnelled...Huntress. Scum have been playing to try to lynch the smarter players in the room.

I think scum are lynching whoever they can get lynched and whichever town wagon takes.

[Roshar]

So, like I said previously, I didn't like the APF vote from Garmr D3. Two reasons. 1) It came first thing D3, right after the announcement of the no NK. 2) His reasons were those from D2, which he directly quoted when he was asked. Almost feels like an effort to quickly settle on a vote before a possible role blocker appeared.

@APF I would not mind lynching Heur today. I'm considering he may be partners with Titus. I haven't yet done a detailed analysis on both slots, but one thing in particular that I noticed was his Titus read. There was so little there, and it was basically discussing the technique titus was using instead of assessing the slot.

Because of the pre game business I mentioned the slight scum lean. I noticed that Titus seems to like to post most right after a vote count and not much at other times, and I think it gives that player a little power since they are pretty much commencing the next step in the game, it could be a power gaining role thing, similar to a phone call and the person getting in the last word having the most power, or two men shaking hands and the one that lets go first being in the weaker position. Not a scum or town specific tell, but kind of gives more leading power in my opinion if true. I would like to see more posts, but I'm feeling null slight scum lean.

Titus' recent responses to froot have only made my scum read stronger. I do not believe she believes her reasons for voting Lowell. I wanted to wait a bit before changing my mind on Lowell and voting Titus to see if she was going to vote Lowell as well. And she did. And I think it was a predictable move, if Titus is scum. He's (lowell) an easy vote, and his D3 actions can be way too easily presented as scum motivated. This makes me more and more confident that he's not scum. What's the most important thing that all scum need to do? Blend in. Would they scum-read a PR to fish for a claim and town read their scum buddy, and make themselves look terrible D4? No. This makes absolutely no sense. The fact that Titus is pushing this superficial read is solidifying my scum read on her.

@Johnny, The titus wagon comprises of Froot and I (excluding FaQ). When did I push you? And where did Froot push you? The reasons we're voting Titus have little to do with finding her intimidating. There has been a long back and forth between froot and titus. Did you form an opinion on any of it?

@Titus, you said you thought scum would have voted Huntress quickly after my claim and without questioning it b/c they would have known it was correct. That leaves us with Lowell and Garmr/Heur. Would you be willing to vote for Heuristically, if his wagon takes?

[Roshar]

That's not my assumption. Town could have reached the conclusion that Huntress is scummy on their own. But that wasn't exactly what happened with you. I had presented the case twice. You stated you hated my reasons, and that you'd have voted Huntress, except my reasons are making you uneasy.

*I hate Roshar's reasons for Huntress push out.

Roshar, I'm a little concerned about you not moving your vote so early. Yet, I'm struggling to find a reason that I agree with in your ISO. I think Huntress is scummy though but I am not wanting to vote something that the only person pushing it is giving reasons that make me feel uneasy. Can you rephrase or rearticulate your push on Huntress without quotes (I'll ask for verification if necessary)?

You show concern I'm not moving my vote so early, and if you ask me, I think this looks like an attempt to get me to claim (and it worked).

I don't get the thought process here btw. You're concerned about me not moving my vote, because you think that's scummy? Or because you may have an idea who I am? You follow it with a, "yet, I'm struggling...agree with" meaning that the concern isn't me being scummy. The concern is possibly who I am, i.e
"I'm concerned about who you may be (town pr), yet I'm still not agreeing with your reasons" vs "I'm concerned what you did is scummy, but I still don't agree with your reasons"

The second one doesn't make sense, as 'yet' is used to initiate the opposite perspective. For example, you wouldn't say, "I think you're suspicious, yet I don't believe you" as both these things are similar. You'd say, "I think you're innocent, yet, I don't believe you". You could have simply been using the word yet incorrectly, and that I'm reading way too much into it, but it's working for me.

I then explain to you that I'll explain later why I won't move my vote. And proceed to restate my case. And your stance changes from, "I hate Roshars reasons" " reasons that make me feel uneasy" to "I can follow that for now".
Now there are two ways to interpret this.
1) is that I restated my case really well, and you hate quotes
2) You understood what I meant by, 'explain later' and thought 'better jump on the wagon early, Huntress is getting lynched, and I'll look better if I'm here early"
I'm inclined to believe the latter.


It's not a matter of thinking you're too smart, I just feel like you're pushing reasons that don't add up. I agree with Froot when she says she thinks you're faking it.

[Roshar]

@Titus, you would be willing to lynch Heur? Are there other reasons that make you willing to lynch him? Other than Garmr quickly bought my claim?