Mini 1489 - VisCon: Murder at Wingate Mansion [Game Over]

[Empire]

Vote: SXTLHGaiden

Just an fyi, I'm a bit busy this weekend with :real-life-happenings: so my posting quantity won't be as great as it normally is but expect it to return back to normal on Monday.

[Empire]

1) I'm town.
2) No.

And I didn't even know you were in this game. <_<
I guess this shit just got a lot more baller.

[Empire]

Man, Tammy, I just went through my entire morning routine eagerly anticipating your reaction to my awesomeness but there's nothing. =(

What gives?

[Empire]

Making excuses already?

I tend to be pretty self conscious about my activity, so yes.

i mean you didn't know TAMMY was in the game?
really???

Uh yes, I went to bed last night early and the slot was still occupied by *checks* Grimgroove. I had woken up and just posted in the thread assuming he was still in the game since I didn't really see any notice from the mod so I was surprised to see her in the game.

[Empire]

your excuses are quite lackluster.

Well ok, I don't give a shit if you think it's lackluster. It's the truth.

Seriously, am I being trolled right now? Because this is kinda what it feels like.

you think i'm reaching?
i think you're chainsawing Empire.

...oh god, I really am being trolled right now. Is this the suffering I inflict onto others when I troll? If so, I'm so sorry Tammy for ever trolling you.

Oh hey empire, you should update your sig.

It took me a while to realize what you were talking about here and uh, yeah, maybe later.

Also ftr I'm not nervous at all. I'm actually pretty stoked that we've got a partial Yoloville reunion going and I'm hoping we're all town so we can end this thing quickly

(or you can be scum and I can take great sadistic pleasure in lynching you)

.

P-edit: Wow, Llamarble I expected you to have my back here =/

P-edit x2: What newbie game are you referring to, TheGarantula?

[Empire]

I don't think I'm supposed to link to it; it's ongoing. It's still okay for me to reference it like that though, right?

Uh no, you are not allowed to discuss ongoing games.

I'm town, but you know that already don't you?

Well yes and I'm pretty happy you can towninate fast without me having to troll you as a catalyst.

Question for you: Is Nacho town?

[Empire]

Dude. You're asking me for my nacho read on page two? I think his demeanor is generally townish, kinda reminds me how he was in 501, but I don't ever have an actual read on nacho this early.

Right, I forgot you're not a super cool master scumhunter like yours truly. Anyway, I wanted to see if your mind went to the same place as mine here and it looks like it did. There's a subtle difference in approach but I don't think it's alignment-related so...townish but still taking a wait-and-see approach.

I'll take your word on Tammy for now, until I see reasons to believe otherwise. Still fairly unsure of my ability to accurately read her early on

You don't have to just take my word for it. There's lots of people in here that have experience with her so if we're all seeing her as town, that's definitely a good sign.

Anyway, going to bed now. Reads still in the incubation stage so hopefully I'll have something more substantial once more time's passed and people really start digging into the thread.

[Empire]

Long day today, will catch up and post something of substance in the morning before I have to go troll Mina IRL.

[Empire]

Also, when I switch to laptop I will give a filler reason, but a couple of empires posts feel forced and one or two people have come in to gang up on nacho since he pointed to empire... Something feels off, but I am hesitant to believe people on mafia scum would so obviously chainsaw or town clear a scum buddy on day 1... Distancing and bussing all day long, but blatant buddy work? Not so sure.

Half the room has played with me so they very well know what to expect when it comes to my play.

This feels weird empire. Don't feel weird. I mean I'm definitely town, but I'd kinda expect you to know why I am. You making it a group read effort makes me feel all wobbly.

That's not even what I was doing. I know exactly why you're town (you've rolled scum a lot here and offsite so you're super excited and stoked to be town in this game) but the others don't. The point of that line is to make Marangal, who I had town at that point because of her paranoia of you, more secure in that read. I've kind of lost all patience at this point with people and after seeing shit like our slot's townread on DV being ignored in The Wire, I want to make sure everyone's on the same page.

Buddying Tammy isn't going to stop her from her reading you as scum; everyone knows you would never regret trolling Tammy.

(Pssst. You should read the crossed out part, you know I could never give that up <_<)

He does look town at the moment, although I will say that it's weird as fuck he didn't pick up on me trolling him sooner, considering his familiarity with my meta.

Like I said above there, it's because I have no patience for shit anymore so my knee jerk reaction was to read that and get mad. I didn't see you were trolling until page 2 or whenever.

---

@Desperado/Tammy:

In what way do you guys feel that Generic is playing differently here than he did in The Red Wedding?

@Generic:

Please answer the following:
1) Why is there a high correlation between {your suspects} and {people who suspect you}?
2) In #63, you say you find some of my early posts forced. However, in #170, you make an argument that necessarily assumes that I am town as a basis for your scumread on Nacho despite the fact that I had only posted something tantamount to a prod dodge since then. What changed?

P-edit: The Red Wedding

[Empire]

Also, can people please stop using hypocrisy as a scumtell? It's not even remotely close to being one given that people are far less likely to be objective/impartial about their own actions than they are about other people's.

Also also, Desperado's town bloc looks solid except I'd swap Generic for Shadoweh.

Also also also, I was gonna neatly lay out why you guys should move over to Gaiden but Desperado beat me to it.

P-edit: Alright, well, I have him scheduled for a meta dive when I get more time because I personally found him suspicious in how he's constructed his posts against Marangal/Nacho in that way where he doesn't seem at all curious about their alignments but just wants to make them look as bad as possible to get them strung up. But I have a feeling this might be more of a playstyle or a site meta language barrier issue given that he plays mostly off-site in places like MTGS so I want to look into his games here to compare how he plays as both alignments.

[Empire]

What are you two seeing in Shadow?

Mostly because I feel like she's playing somewhat similarly to this game (bonus: Llamarble, Tammy, and myself were all town here while Nacho was scum).

[Empire]

Can you be more specific? I'm not seeing it.

In particular, Shadow was much, much more proactive with their vote in that game. This quote:

"I expect you to treat a suspect like a suspect. Whether you're rude or polite about it, I should be able to tell you suspect them from reading what you say about them. I'm waiting for your big reads wall at this point to see what you really feel."

Was particularly interesting. Who does Shadow suspect in this game?

I think the circumstances of this game are different, but if you don't mind, I'd rather wait for Shadoweh to respond to this first before I go into more detail on what I see.

[Empire]

Just got back from hanging out with Mina (it was fun!), will do a full catch-up tomorrow and the Generic meta report. Couple of things before I go to bed:

@Llamarble:

1) About Gaiden, I'm not seeing what you're seeing at all. I found that post full of posturing and the timing of both that post and the preceding very problematic. Why can Gaiden only be scum with Generic?
2) Can you elaborate on what you liked about the Marangal post you quoted?

P-edit: Ok, Desperado, I'll answer your question tomorrow when I wake up.

[Empire]

Huh? Have you done this meta-dive yet that you just pretty much promised us?

"YALL SHOULD MOVE TO GAIDEN, HE'S ON MY SCUMLIST, but you know maybe you shouldn't because I need to compare how he/she is as both alignments"

Please do better than this....

Uh, that's not even remotely what I said. If you'd actually taken the time to read my post more closely, you'd see that the bottom half of it was a preview edit directed to the post above me from Desperado talking about Generic. I said I wanted to look into his meta because I could see a lot of the issues I'm having with his play being largely playstyle related and not alignment related. The first half of it was talking about Gaiden. I never once even implied I was waiting on a meta dive w.r.t. Gaiden.

On point 2 first, you got that wrong. My scum read on nacho incorporated a point that HE flipped from a scum read on you to a town read on you after just a prod dodge post. I never called you town during that entire event.

I don't think you understood what I was getting at. Of course you didn't explicitly call me town. But you did bring up an argument that presumes I am town. In #170, you said you think Nacho is trying to suck up to me so I vote the way he wants me to. The only way that makes any sense is if Nacho's scum and I'm town; otherwise, he would have no motivation to suck up to me in that way to influence my vote. I want to know why you made this argument then if you still have me as a null-read.

---

@Desperado:

1) From what I've seen of Shadoweh in other games, she's usually a lot more self-assured/"meaner" as town and that's how she came across to me in her interactions with Generic. As scum, she tends to play a lot more reserved with her emotions and often plays up the "cutesiness" factor. I linked Yoloville as the was the most recent experience I had with her and I just generally see a lot more of the former here.
2) As far as the circumstances of this game being different goes, #258 is the kind of response I was expecting from her mostly because it's the same way I've been feeling about the game. Aside from Gaiden and possibly Generic, most of the people posting look pretty town to me so it's hard to find other suspects I'd feel confident in. Judging from that post, it seems like Shadoweh feels the same way (as an aside, I do think Shadoweh is perfectly capable of manufacturing reasons to vote people as scum and would have done so here if she were scum).

@Nacho:

Really interested in seeing what you've got from that other site. I'll probably be registering myself soon enough but I'd much rather get through Generic's meta here as I feel that's the most relevant seeing as other site's play the game differently.

@Bert:

You have a lot of suspects, but is there anyone you are reading as town? If so, who?

[Empire]

Tammy, whenever you get a chance, would like to hear your thoughts on Bert specifically.

[Empire]

Woah, woah. Why are you asking Tammy about me? Why don't you make some of your own comments first.

The question has less to do with you and more to do with her. Of course I have my own opinion and I'll make my own comments when I feel ready.

[Empire]

I lost Internet connection at my house so I can only phone post for a bit.

Why did you vote for gaiden in rvs?

Why are you even asking me this question when you know the answer and you know it's not alignment indicative? I obviously voted Gaiden in RVS because I thought he'd give me an alignment indicative response if wagoned.

You feel weird this game.

What the fuck? I expect the rest of these guys to be slow in figuring out I'm town here but you? I can go and point out every single one of my towntells in this game (you can also read Nacho's post, he did a fairly good job of pointing them out). And I've been doing a pretty decent job of keeping up with the game too so I don't even know why you feel even remotely weird about me.

I'll talk about the Bert question when I'm not stuck on a phone.

[Empire]

Tammy I get other people feeling weird to you but me? Of the MS people, you probably know my play literally better than anyone else on the site. So I want to know what exactly is off with you here. I'm not interested in dealing with Yoloville type paranoia from you especially on Day 1.

[Empire]

Also, Llamarble, you need to explain that vote, Desperado actually looks pretty solid to me.

[Empire]

I got internet back! Unfortunately, I'm going over to a friend's today. I'll be back later tonight though, I absolutely want to get through the Generic meta stuff at the very least as well as provide a full accounting of all my reads with reasoning now that I think I've seen enough to that.

Don't know how to read Bert. He kinda seems similar to 501 in tone, but since he replaced out early I didn't get a chance to see what his town game really looks like. I believe he plays a lot with nacho, so he'd be a better person to ask.

I did like the paranoia he threw at me immediately upon entering. However, I did let soo slip by me in mafia.raptured partially for this because I wrote it off as town for a little while, but Bert's felt more natural. I don't know what I did to erase that paranoia though.

I asked you about Bert because he did a number of things that I think town-you would definitely like, the paranoia of you being one thing, and I wanted to see if you'd point them out so I could feel better about having read you as town. #240 is another example of something I liked about him that I expected you to see, the line about how he doesn't feel like he could ever lead a successful case against you read extremely genuine and I'm surprised you didn't mention anything of it. I'm still reading you as town but I'm not as confident as I want to be I guess. I don't know, I think part of this is just motivated by the fear that one day you'll just burn me as scum because I underestimated your game.

Also, why weren't you indignant when I responded to you yesterday? I remember in Yoloville you lashed out at me saying something like "how dare you say I can't be paranoid of you!" but there's nothing like that here.

(As an aside, I think Bert is very different from SoO in that he seems a lot more like a "heart-on-sleeve" kind of player and that mimicking that level of transparency is very hard to do as scum. SoO just kinda lurked his way through the whole game without offering solid opinions on anything.)

Then whoever those people are they have hot no fucking self respect.
Because I guarantee you one thing bert, I will never use my home life as a weapon in an online game. A fucking game.

I've endgamed twice out of the three times I've been mafia on this site. Not one of those games do I bring in cheap tricks to get there, I simply play the game.

And I noticed you never denied that you are accusing me if using me home life to avoid being lynches. Classy person you are.

Ugh, ok, I really don't think this guy is scum at this point. Generic would pretty much have to be a top douchebag to have posted something so emotionally charged about how he'd never use his personal problems as leverage in an online game. And he doesn't seem the type.

I would like to talk to Mara about the other site first, if you don't mind. Although I wonder...
Mara, Gen, would it be OK if I made the account a public one so people could access its meta?

I don't mind at all and if you could make the account a public one (I'm assuming it's not against the rules here?), that would be pretty fucking amazing.

[Empire]

1) I wanted Empire to give original opinions. What would be ACCEPTABLE and less pingy to my scumdar is: "I believe Bert is so-and-so (opinion). What do you think, Tammy?" I wanted Empire to bring something to the table that hasn't been brought up before.

Forgot to respond to this. The reason I didn't out my opinion along with the question is because I did not want to influence Tammy's answer to the question. Like I said, the question was more about trying to solidify my read on her than it was about you. If you want original opinions from me, can you wait until tonight? Sometimes, it just takes me a while to get into a game especially when my last completed game was something like 3 months ago.

[Empire]

Hey Tammy, I don't know if you actually bothered to read anything I've been saying but I made it very clear that I do have reads and that I told Bert I'd be posting them tonight. You'd also know that I've hinted at several of them already and have even explained my reasoning for some. And if you actually knew a damn thing about me then you'd know I'm not the most confident player in the world despite me joking about it, doubly so when my last completed game was 3 fucking months ago.

And I don't know if you realize this, but I do actually hold your scum game to a higher standard than you do for yourself. Believe it or not, I read you as town in Open 501 for most of the game (and even Regfan did too). I *think* I misread you in the Red Wedding too but I'm not sure since I focused mostly on my Reck scumread while following it. So go fuck yourself if you think this paranoia is fake because I can assure you that it is very very real.

And fucking lol at you saying that I'm not allowed to be indignant while you are. If you could stop bring self-absorbed for maybe ten fucking seconds then MAYBE you'd see that I'm also asking you these things to field your reactions because I want to be more certain of you because sorting you out early is my #1 priority.

And finally, there is literally, postively no way I'd play this way as scum or interact with you like this at all as scum. Why wouldn't I just coast on by hardtownreading you and just filing you away? Why the fuck would I even try this shit?

Literally posting this from my phone at dinner with my friends and now my night's hampered. If you don't think I'm obvious fucking town after this, then you need to hand in your badge because you're off the fucking force which is sad because I have objectively the worst scum game on this site (my last completed scum game being over a year ago now).

[Empire]

I get part of that. I still don't understand why you would be paranoid of me in this game, especially when the people who were *in* those games with me, and were fooled by me, aren't exhibiting that paranoia. What strikes me as odd is that you have been fooled by Nacho before but you're not exhibiting any signs of paranoia about him.

Great. I'm glad they weren't paranoid about you. But I'm not them and they're not me. And when was I fooled by Nacho? If you're talking about Yoloville, he only fooled me for one Day phase because of a lame meta read I didn't bother to double check at the time. I remember calling a CES/Nacho/Shadoweh (lol) team as early as Day 2 and I definitely remember casting the deciding vote that ultimately got him lynched over CES in Day 3. I have plenty of reasons to think he's town in this game (see my upcoming reads post for why).

I can't stop being self-absorbed; it's who I am. I didn't say that you are not allowed to be indignant. I'm saying that you can't be indignant at me for not just reading you as town while at the same time questioning me. Because you are not understanding that maybe I have the same doubts you are. You can't go "how dare you not see me as town" and then turn around and go "I'm not confident in my town read on you." That's my point. And you also don't get to tell me that MAYBE I'm asking you things to field your reactions, and then not recognize that I also asked you questions to field your reactions to sort out my read on you. I even literally said that. I told you you were feeling weird to me. After your reaction, I said that I had hoped for that type of reaction. Instead of recognizing that, you went OH MY GOD WAIT WHY AREN'T YOU BEING INDIGNANT? when I made it clear that I liked your reaction. And instead of recognizing what I said to Bert that the problem lay with me and that I was having a weird day, which I shouldn't need to explain you know that yesterday was the first real day at my new job and that I was nervous about it so me feeling weird just in life in general and it maybe bleeding into the game, should be something that you should recognize. Not only that but i've referenced how stupid my paranoia of you was in yoloville more than once, so why would I get indignant. I have no problem recognizing maybe when I'm wrong and when a product of my paranoia is me and not someone else. This is not something new and is exhibited through several games.

Me getting indignant was my knee-jerk reaction, so I'm really sorry for coming off that way. I am actually town this game and wanted to just get the super strong :goodtownfeelings: from you so we can bounce ideas off each other and stuff like we did in Castle Zar or Yoloville (well, pre-Day 4 anyway) or hell any of our games as Cerulean. And yeah, I did think the new job thing was a possible factor behind your "feeling weird" about me but it's definitely not the only thing and I wouldn't have a reason to just assume that it was.

And you're suggesting there's the possibility that I would interact with you this way if I were scum? That I would have started the game interacting with you the way I did if I were scum?

And what would you have done as scum, honestly? Do you really think you would have just had no interaction with me whatsoever given that you'd know that would be exactly the kind of thing I'm expecting? I know you think your scum game is the worst ever but it's seriously not even close to this catatonic. The reason why I picked Bert for you to wax on about was precisely because he was someone you hadn't interacted much with in the past yet still exhibited a lot of behaviors that you would read as town. In a way, I guess I wanted to take you out of your element and see how you'd react.

He either understands that we're nervous about each other or he understands that we're both being ridiculous because if we are both town that should be obvious to each other.

I understand this now and your recent posting especially makes me feel a lot better about you. Like, a lot a lot a lot. Hopefully, you feel the same way so we can just move on to phase 2.

[Empire]

Ok so here are the reads I've gathered up to this point. A lot of it feels like rough guesswork right now but I hope to get a better feel for the game as it goes on. I know this thing is very long, but please take the time to read it all.

Nacho's

posting in this game really feels like a far cry from games like F11 or Yoloville where he was completely cold/detached/uninterested and just went through the motions asking questions and focusing on irrelevant stuff to look busy. His entrance into the game from #16-#27 focusing on pressuring me and making me feel uncomfortable to try and get a read on me really reminds me of the approach he took with Syryana in Open 501 as town and I really like the way he moved onto Marangal right after that starting at #78 and moving onto Tammy in posts like #158, reads like he's trying to sort out players he knows well in ways that will be effective and I think he'd just generally take a far more subdued approach as scum. I need to double check the meta on this, but I think Nacho's not as inclined to make detailed town-cases such as #182 and #183, from what I know of scum-Nacho he doesn't like to limit himself by giving out an abundance of townreads like he seems to have in this game as it would limit his options for who to push. The reach out to Generic to "give him something to work with" reads extremely genuine and I just don't really imagine him saying that as scum at all. He's not pushing other Nachoscum triggers like defending weaker players for the sake of it or being lazy with his reasoning or pushing forward contrived reasoning. And finally, I really like the fact that he's actually going through the effort to look up Generic/Marangal's off-site meta -- scum usually don't like to put in huge amounts of effort into looking at other people's meta, much less off-site meta. All in all, I feel pretty good about Nacho being town and would be pretty surprised if he turned out to be scum.

I know I've written a lot about

Tammy

and my paranoia of her and whatnot, but her recent posting pretty much has me feeling way better about her slot -- she's nowhere near this explosive or cocky about her own townieness as scum. Her entrance into the game w.r.t. trying to get a read on me early and playing up how excited she was to be town is genuine given that she's been scum a lot this year both here and off-site (Tammy, since I know you'll be reading this, I just want to let you know that part of me still thinks you would have tried to interact with me in some way =P ). I also liked her bringing up Red Wedding as a meta reference point by saying that she knows the value of taking a stance as scum and that she hates being a part of fights like that when she's town. I know she's been a part of in thread drama in the past and she's aware of the debilitating effects it can have on the town so choosing to try and stop the fight rather than egg it on is a stance that she's more likely to take as town.

TheGarantula

's coming across like solid noobtown to me. I really liked #32, immediately spotting something weird in Nacho's play due to experience with him is something I think newer players are far more likely to do as town. I like how takes a bit of an against-the-grain stance in #129 in the Generic/Marangal back-and-forth by townreading Generic/scumreading Marangal yet still made the effort to try and see what everyone else was seeing, as I find newer scum players often try to take the path of least resistance when it comes to major in thread issues. I like him coming forward admitting that he has no solid reads yet in #315 as scum (especially newer scum) tend to try and fake more definitive stances because that's usually seen as the more stereotypically pro-town thing to do.

Bert's

play looks like it's still developing but what he's been posting so far looks really solid. Like I mentioned earlier, his comment in #240 about how he doesn't think he could lead on Tammy successfully reads super genuine, it's exactly the way I think a lot of more new players feel when they play interact with more experienced players but don't really like to admit (and hell, even I still feel that way about some players). His play surrounding Tammy and his paranoia of her rooted in Open 501 also reads genuine. A lot of his play revolves around feeling out people and trying to relate to them especially by linking their feelings with his own, which is an approach I think is far more likely to come from town as scum don't put emphasis on relate-ability/empathy as that's hard to fake.

Generic

is weird. While I didn't like his early posting at all in that it felt like shallow scumhunting and it seemed like he was more interested in trying to make Marangal look bad than discern her alignment, I think a large part of my issues were mostly due to site meta differences (though I still have to check this out as a little homework assignment tomorrow morning) and his emotions just seemed to get the better of him. Like I said before, #330 reads super genuine. I know from hearing about him way back that he tends to really take pride in his scum game so him saying that he's too prideful to use cheap tactics like using his personal life as a weapon checks out. This is probably a WIFOM-heavy point, but I think for a guy who really cares about his scum game, he wouldn't play so defensively (?) as scum. Interested in seeing where he goes once he starts getting back into the game with a cooler head (#379 is a decent start).

My thoughts on

Shadoweh

are here at the bottom of the post. Not much has changed in that department (except I was very tempted to leave her out of this post because I knew it would troll her).

Not really sure what Nacho/Llamarble are seeing in

Desperado

, like I mentioned before, I find his posting to be pretty decent so far. I like the way he makes the meta comparison between Generic here and in the Red Wedding at a time and him reaching out to Tammy/Nacho to see if they see what he sees. Trying to get people to work together and form town blocs early is something I don't see him doing as scum, I think he'd try to facilitate the chaos/fan the flames of paranoia. #212 is another solid post, the fact that he actually took the effort to go through the link I provided to compare Shadoweh's play there to his play here makes him more likely town I think. One final WIFOM-y point: the final bit in #378 about seeing which read to talk Tammy out of first feels way too transparent for him as scum.

Nacho summed up a lot of my reasons for reading

Marangal

as town in his #182 so I don't want to waste even more space regurgitating it but I just want to add one thing that I don't think he mentioned in that post. Marangal's another player whose paranoia of Tammy I find genuine given their history and her reaching out to me and my ability to read her in #51 is something I liked a lot.

PeaceBringer's

probably my weakest townread here but I think a lot of people's problems with him are playstyle-related and not really alignment-related. Dude just seems old school. In particular, I liked the bit in #142 where he asks Shadoweh why she isn't seeing what he's seeing, that question tends to come a lot more from townies with strong convictions than from scum (who are generally more apathetic about reads as they know those reads are fake). Also, Tammy, since I know you're going to be the only person who ever makes it this far, I don't think 1baldeagle1's replace-out is a scum tell at all; I think the guy was probably too overwhelmed or intimidated by this game.

Llamarble's

posting thus far has been really weak and the bits in #261 and #275 where he's self conscious about his posting being similar to his scum-game felt way out of character given that Llamarble seemed way cockier about his townieness in the other games of his I remember reading (and even in Yoloville when he was being wagoned). However, if there's anything I learned from Yoloville, it can take Llamarble a bit of time to get into the game so I'm willing to take a wait-and-see approach with him.

Purple's

ISO is just...super boring. So possible PoE scum candidate but nothing even remotely interesting here.

Gaiden's

pretty much the closest thing I have to a scumread here. As Desperado pointed out, #181 just feels like a softball question to ask, and the timing of it was suspicious (when the Generic wagon was gaining steam and when he was at the height of his emotional outburst) and it just reads like the question was presented to paint Generic in a negative light. I could see #188 being genuine but right now it just reads like posturing to me, especially considering he doesn't appear to have a read on Generic.

That's about everything I have right now. It took a long ass time to write all this so I'm going to bed soon and will work on the Generic meta thing as soon as I wake up (please let me know what's up with the other site meta, Nacho, I'll register and read when I have time).

[Empire]

I'm alive!

Unfortunately, I've been really really sick and I spent almost all of yesterday in bed. Sorry for sucking thus far, I'm trying to keep my head in the game.

Tammy, Empire, I know you're busy fighting but you both have a town read on Bert, could you please acknowledge my case and/or deny it, I don't think what he's posted is 'solid' and PB is an easy target from the way people have been beating on his style. I also note he's taken back any bad thoughts about Empire because Empire writes like a king. I'd rather try to lynch a weirdo over wallposts anyday. Nacho already gave his opinion, but I think when people hang out too much they can get caught up in meta tells instead of plain mafia reading.

Erm, what do you want me to say? I think your case is wrong and it focuses on things-that-look-bad-but-aren't-really rather than things that are actually scummy. For example, I don't see his stuff as IIoA noise as he's not really focusing on information dump but drawing conclusions from them (even in the post you tried to link, he's explaining

why

he finds some things suspicious, not just saying that they are). And about the trajectory of Bert's read on Tammy, dude's been paranoid/suspicious of her since coming into the game so I don't think his shifting read on her has anything to do with Tammy being unsure on him.

What do you think about him lying about if he's played with me before or not?

Uh dude, I'm not really seeing anything there, I think him "lying" about it is just more likely to be a "Shoe-being-a-quirky-alt" thing rather than a "Shoe-being-scummy" thing. I mean, if he knows that you know his identity (as #355 seems to suggest), why would he deliberately lie about it?

and they are so eloquent and detailed and rhetorical yada-yada-yada. I want them both outta here, they are making me really paranoid. They can talk us new-ish players outta anything, and it's like going against freakin pros.

As much as I love being called a pro, I'm far from it. The bottom line is that I hate being scum, probably more than anyone else on the site and I'm actually really bad at it. I think you're town so I'm asking you to just trust me here. I know this is probably the wrong thing to say but I don't really know what else to say, frankly. I'm starting to feel a lot better about my handle on this game and so hopefully Tammy and I can move onto phase 2 soon whenever she realizes I'm town.

Agree that #508 from Llamarble is good stuff and I'm excited to see more.

@Generic/Marangal:

Really want to see you pull away from this back-and-forth with and see you work a bit more elsewhere. As far as I can tell, you guys are still arguing about the same stuff you were arguing about on like page 2 or 3. Far be it for me to pull a Tammy (this is what you've turned me into), but it's gotten to the point where this has become entirely unproductive.

[Empire]

As far as my actual reads:

empire, bert, nacho, mara, generic, garantula and maybe llamarble and shadoweh are town.

gaiden is mhrmhmrh and lynchable. his replace out is null.

besides that are the peacebringer, purple shoe.

I would most like to lynch peace bringer if i were to change my vote at this time or purple shoe just because i cant' remember a damn thing he did and he's not in my town list.

(You forgot Desperado. What are your thoughts on him?)

[Empire]

I feel like I have too many town reads and somethings wrong somewhere.

Yeah this is kind of we're I'm at too (though Desperado still looks kinda town to me) and I think I need to give this game another reread. Right now, I've been mostly focusing on {Gaiden, Shoe} as they're the only ones who don't really look town to me at all. It's irritating because they also happen to be the least contentful players in this game and part of me thinks the game can't be this easy.

Hopefully, the replacements helps shed some light on that Gaiden's alignment.

I should probably go make myself some waffles.

[Empire]

Hmmm.

There's something I need to think about w.r.t. kuribo's claim.

Unvote

Have you caught up with the thread completely?

(Also, I'm town and I'm almost positive Tammy's town too so I'm down for having another Wire S1-type deal. I'm not as good as you think I am though.)

[Empire]

Yeah, I was wondering about whether we should out our Neighborhood.

We don't have day talk either.

[Empire]

Tammy, the reason why I knew baldeagle's replace out was null is because he posted in our neighborhood very confused about what was going on and had no idea what to do.

[Empire]

Our neighborhood was pretty active. A lot of my reasons for reading Marangal and PeaceBringer's slot as town come from there.

Actually, that could explain why you saw a lot of weirdness from me this game.

[Empire]

That also explains why you read shadoweh from very little. But it makes me wonder about shadoweh, if you were active and protown then I don't get some of her behavior.

Here's the thing: Shadoweh read everyone in our QT as town based on our pre-game posting. If you're scum and you're in a Neighborhood, wouldn't you want to sow some of the paranoia about how "there must be scum in the neighborhood"? It's a great way to subtly cut off open communication in the QT.

[Empire]

Also, I think this goes without saying but I'm going to say it anyway: if there's any other Neighborhood out there somehow, you guys need to claim it ASAP.

P-edit: Llamarble, I'll check the game out right now, give me a few minutes.

[Empire]

Wait wait wait.

I just realized there's something else about kuribo's claim I need to think about and that might make him town.

Also, Llamarble, I just skimmed the endgame of Cookie Thief and there's no mention of how alignments in the Neighborhood were distributed (for everyone, it was a 3 person neighborhood, the two townies were a collective roleblocker while the scum was just a scum neighbor).

[Empire]

I'll be more than happy to string up the Shoe as well, just want to sort out a few things before I go vote.

Man, I kinda wish it was May again when was a lot more confident in my play.

[Empire]

Is a mass character claim worthwhile at this stage to see how the neighbourhoods are set up?

We already know that the 4 person Neighborhood is comprised of members of the Wingate family while the 3 person Neighborhood is comprised of Guests so I don't think that's necessary in the thread right now. If the Neighborhoods want to do their own thing in the QT, though, then it's fine.

I just woke up and was hoping kuribo was going to have something to say about my #679 but I guess not =/

[Empire]

Actually, let's try this: kuribo, can you paraphrase your flavor please?

[Empire]

Hmmm. Ok, I'm going to head out to lunch to ponder things some more.

(In the meantime, though, you should read #679 again.)

[Empire]

Why are you trying to be so secretive about the message here?

*sigh*

Because the message was intended for kuribo only. I figured he would get the hint and we would both talk about it in our Neighborhoods. Some things really do NOT need to be talked about openly.

Anyway, since it's now out in the open, my role PM talks about Albert extensively and I've been wondering whether this means anything re: kuribo's alignment. Thoughts?

[Empire]

How did you not expect other people to figure it out? Why would it be better to discuss in the quick topics than in the main thread? If there's scum in the QTs they can coordinate what they say about the information. They can't do that during the day. (I assume they don't have day talk)

People tend to not really pick up crumbs like that unless it directly pertains with them (see: Johhog softclaiming his PR hard in Yoloville and something like half the town not picking it up). And I wanted to see if kuribo would bring it up in the QT with Tammy and Llamarble and how.

Also, why are you so trusting of kuriboh already?

I'm not saying I trust him. I'm trying to figure out if I

should

trust him given the information I have.

[Empire]

And if we're talking about coordination of information, I don't think kuribo's the type that really needs other people to tell him what to say.

[Empire]

I'm on my phone right now but Garantula, I had to make the crumb obvious in the thread because kuribo wasn't understanding what I was trying to hint at.

And if he didn't discuss it in his QT it of course would have made him more suspicious in my eyes considering his Neighborhood has Tammy in it and they've interacted in a Neighborhood before. Given that I have a strong townread on Tammy, I'd expect her to accurately recount the contents of their discussion.

[Empire]

I'm still catching up (on my phone, will finish later tonight) but just wanted to say one thing: Tammy, the flavor in my role PM doesn't tell me that Albert is town, it's just that there's a lot of it about how he's a friend who listens to my character's bullshit stories about travelling and about how I invited him to this Mansion. In fact, there's probably more about him than there is about my character, though I'd have to re-check my role PM when I get back home. There just seems to be a heavy implication that the role is town.

[Empire]

Ok, I'm in the middle of my catch-up (and also a little buzzed) but this post shocked me in its sheer badness that I pretty much feel obligated to respond right now.

I'm still trying to understand what the supposed harm in my outing of Empire's role flavor was. Not only was it obvious, but it would be inconsequential unless you were purposefully trying to insinuate that it is related to his abilities or alignment. If that's the case, why would you making a big deal out of it be any better?

If we entertain the idea that you are both scum, then perhaps the exchange could have been to allow Empire to claim a role indirectly, so as not to raise suspicions. Then, he could reference it later as evidence (a la the usual breadcrumb).

If only one of you is scum, then the exchange would have served as public buddying. In the case that either of you flipped, it might have implied the same alignment of the other, especially if this sort of behavior continued.

I guess I just can't get over the idea that the breadcrumb was meant to be picked up by someone other than kuribo. Perhaps it wasn't meant for town to notice, but was instead an attempt by Empire to communicate with his partners indirectly? This doesn't seem as likely, but I guess it's still possible.

In essence,

FOS: Both of you

. I see more scum motivation behind it than town motivation (which I see little of).

Literally, none of these scenarios make a lick of sense:
1) Even if you think of main motivation behind said breadcrumb was to crumb my role (which is not only

not

what my primary intention was but not even close to what I actually did considering breadcrumbing flavor =/= breadcrumbing role), scum are obviously not the only ones who have motivation to do so. There are plenty of reasons why town would breadcrumb, including *gasp* dropping hints to figure out the alignment of another player.
2) You are basically suggesting that I acted in concert with a replacement (e.g., a guy who would not have the benefit of pre-game talk and I'm assuming there's no daytalk here given the Neighborhoods don't have it either) to contrive a breadcrumb for the sole purpose of making us both look town. To do this, we would needed to have planned this out and have discussed it considering the idea is pretty contrived and complicated, especially when you consider that kuribo claimed his role way before I hinted at mine. Given that it's pretty much close to a certainty that scum don't have daytalk, you're seriously expecting kuribo and I to have pulled this off with absolutely no discussion/coordination whatsoever? Do you see how absurd this is yet?
3) What the hell would be the point of buddying someone like kuribo (who is pretty obviously not susceptible to it) in such a contrived manner when there's much easier/straightforward ways of doing it or I could just simply get rid of kuribo with a nightkill?
4) If I were scum, why the hell would I need to communicate something that my partners would already know (my claim + flavor)?

So you're basically faced with either I contrived something ridiculous in an attempt to make myself look town or the much simpler explanation that maybe, just maaaaaaaaybe, I crumbed my role because I wanted to gauge the alignment of another player.

[Empire]

I understand why Empire is reading Shadoweh as town, though I don't really agree with him. I think that it's very possible for her to wanting to "work with us" so that, she could gain some inside knowledge and manipulate us for the duration of the game.

Shadoweh doesn't really strike me as the kind who would take that path though.

---

@Bert:

1) Read the wiki section you quoted again. "Multiple Neighborhoods -> higher odds that at least one of them has a scum Neighbor" =/= "multiple Neighborhoods -> "higher odds that

each

of them has a scum Neighbor.
2) Erm, by suggesting that the suspect pool should be {Shadoweh/Llamarble/Tammy/myself} you're basically saying that the entire scum team are Neighbors (assuming the standard 10:3)...that's pretty much impossible (also, Tammy and myself are both town, take that to the bank).

@Nacho:

What's your updated read on the Shoe? I'm honestly getting cold feet on lynching that slot knowing that it's Muttley because I remember him being really useless in Open 501 and some other game where he was town (need to look it up). I don't really feel a Desperado wagon either. I don't know, I just feel like I have a severe case of the bads in this game where everyone looks town (I've become literally Tammy circa Day 3/4). I'm at the point where I just have a list of people I pretty much never plan on voting (you, Tammy, Marangal, PB, Garantula, and maybe Bert) but everyone else looks like town to me in some form or another.

[Empire]

Also, Llamarble, you have something like 4 RL days to get through this and actually involve yourself in the game. How is that not enough time?

[Empire]

Prod dodge, been battling insomnia (and losing), game's at a standstill for me at the moment until we get the new replacement. I should have something more substantial tomorrow.

@mod: Would it be at all possible for us to get a deadline extension due to the replacements please?

[Empire]

Still fighting the Great Battle Against Insomnia (and still losing), but I managed enough mental capacity to be able to post stuff. Really disappointed we didn't get a deadline extension but there's nothing we can do, so whatever.

but this I don't understand so much. desperado can look town if you look at him sideways and squinty-eyed, but otherwise he's pretty much just scum. and if he's not and llamarble isn't doing amazing things by tomorrow, we can probably kill the fuck out of him without a tear lost anywhere.

I just don't see what you or Llamarble see, I really don't. I even reread Desperado's ISO just now and the only case against him I can see is "he doesn't look as town as most of the other people in this game".

What did you think about kuribo's rage in this game and the replace out. In that I'm wondering if you think it's alignment indicative, not asking to gossip :p

(Realtalk, I'd never gossip about that stuff, what Garantula did was way out of line.)

Anyway, some thoughts I jotted down about kuribo while rereading him in ISO and considering your question:
1) The rage regarding kuribo's personal life is not alignment indicative since it has nothing to do with this game, and thus, he'd be pissed regardless (I would be too).
2) The replace out could be town as town tend to usually be the ones who feel the need to jot down their final thoughts in a last ditch attempt to help the town. However, thinking about it, I've seen this from scum enough to the point where I don't consider that tell completely reliable.
3) The self meta in #868 could actually be a thing. Kuribo's a really paranoid guy, so I can imagine him always claiming a visiting role as scum due to the fear that he'll be tracked/watched/etc. I haven't gone out and checked how he interacts with his scum partners but he vaguely seems like the guy who would turbo bus his whole team at the drop of a hat.

Empire/nacho what are your updated reads on marble?

I like his recent posting but he hasn't broken the threshold of "wow, Llamarble really feels like town in this game." Not really interested in voting him today, though. I remember CES saying in some other game (Abarat?) that Llamarble's a suboptimal Day 1 lynch in that he can take a bit of time to get going and he can get a lot more readable with time.

Also, I really don't want to lynch the qwints slot.

---

@Marangal:

You said in #934 that you think there's two scum outside the Neighborhoods and one scum within them. Why do you want to lynch in the Neighborhoods when the odds of hitting scum outside of it are higher (2 in 6 vs. 1 in 7)?

[Empire]

But, what I was trying to figure out with him was the rage at the purple shoe and before. I went back and read the comments after fortnight where oversoul said he was able to figure out the rage was fake, but I still couldn't decide. I do remember in The Wire how he did fake rage to push for reactions, so I suppose that could have been going on here, but it did seem kinda over the top with the shoe.

Well, what do you think about the fact that his replace out post had him as town despite his earlier push? Do you think that read shift was more borne out of convenience/opportunism? My gut says no precisely because he replaced out (but see: "Scum Replace Outs and You").

The main reason I have him filed away right now is because of his claim and I'm still thinking about it + what my flavor means. The "I never fakeclaim VT as scum" thing is a bonus but I wouldn't really put anything past kuribo either given the crazy shit he's done in the past.

I vaguely remember the thread you're talking about and I might go mine for it later when I'm not a borderline zombie.

[Empire]

What I was mostly interested in was your take on the rage. It was something I was going to ask you about anyway as it didn't feel like the rage he had with benmage upon replacing into The Wire. And my first knee jerk reaction was the he was scum trying to mimic his rage, but then I remembered him asking in the neighborhood who he should fake rage at to try to provoke some reactions when we were all waffling about who the last scum were. So, I know he's perfectly capable at faking it for funsies to shake some trees.

I don't know, I could see him doing the whole rage thing as either alignment and I can't really read into his tone for some reason. The fact that he shifted his read on Shoe makes me think he was just trying to get a rise out of him to force content and that might make him more likely town though?

Why did baldeagle come off as confused newbtown and not confused newbscum?

He was just emphasizing that he was confused by the Neighborhood and how he had only recently started playing here and was asking us what that was all about. It's probably a stretch but I think as scum he would have just not posted or not have been trying to figure stuff out.

[Empire]

To be fair most of the other people in the game are pretty damn town. If you look at the reactions to the wagons too, kuribo came in and raged all over the place, Shoe got into an argument with kuribo himself, Generic and Mara have literally been fighting since page 1, and Desperado is kind of.. there? There's not alot of fighting back going on here, it's like he's already given up. He's also only addressing the two main people who want him dead in his one post since he became a wagon.

Also, do you have a better idea? If you say me I'll punch you in the throat.

That's the thing: I've been looking for a better idea and I've got nothing. The closest thing I have to an alternative is Shoe but that explosion of stand-offish posting earlier when he was being wagoned makes me think he's probably town. I might just end up plopping a vote down on Desperado due to the fact that so many people look more town than him (and you do make a point about his reaction to the wagon) but I'd feel icky about it.

[Empire]

I'm still thinking about my vote. Whatever vote I put down will likely not move as I will not be around tomorrow, especially near deadline.

[Empire]

I don't know, man. Is Muttley really that much of an asshole to just blatantly ignore this game out of spite as town?

[Empire]

Ugh, that is actually a pretty townie line.

Whatever.

Vote: Desperado

Nacho, if you're wrong on this, I will be very sad and will also hate myself for a very long time.

[Empire]

Also, in case you're wondering, the vote feels about as icky as I expected.

[Empire]

keep the faith

I will try my best, shit just isn't easy in this game.

[Empire]

Quick post for right now because I'm occupied with something.

Tammy, what else did Llamarble and you talk about in the Neighborhood?

[Empire]

Also, it's very very likely our Neighborhood is clean due to Desperado's fake-claim.

[Empire]

I'll explain later but Desperado fake claimed something one of us would have told him was impossible in the pre-game.

[Empire]

Oh, I didn't think about the SK thing, I just assumed he was mafia due to the red flip. *shrug*

Anyway, the logic behind the fakeclaim thing was that Desperado fakeclaimed a member of the Wingate family. All the members of the family are supposed to have access to the QT, so Desperado basically confirmed himself as not-town when he claimed because he wasn't in our QT (hence why Marangal hammered). If one of us in the QT were scum, fakeclaims would have been discussed and he would have been told that his fakeclaim was impossible.

[Empire]

Also, I think the fakeclaim thing you mentioned makes him being an SK very likely. I think most people would have told him not to claim that.

Not necessarily. Assuming none of us in the QT are scum, then that means scum didn't know about our Neighborhood until it was outed in the game, and thus, would not know that the claim was very very bad for that reason.

[Empire]

Okay, but when we talked about Desperado in the neighborhood we came to the conclusion that he was an sk cuz he was death aligned with death. If that's the case, then nobody is clear from that.

Going to bed again right now (yeah yeah...), but I was thinking about this and thought two things:

1) The Llamarble N1 kill feels like it came from scum that was self-conscious about his interactions with Desperado and how it would clear him. I think if it's Desperado-SK, the scum team would have been less inclined to have killed him off because he wasn't really a strong universal townread.
2) If Desperado were SK, why would he claim self-watcher? That just seems like a really dumb thing to claim as SK considering that it's not a high utility town PR and it's not long term.

@mod - I will be V/LA until Thursday or Friday due to a bunch of personal stuff. I'll try to post whenever I can. Apologies for the inconvenience.

[Empire]

I missed you, matt.

Mara, I don't think there's an SK but I need to think about it because Desperado

technically

could still be one considering he's aligned with himself.

More later this week when I'm back.

[Empire]

Tammy, I'll talk about this more when I'm back tonight and fully catch up, but you need to read Marangal's ISO again more closely.

[Empire]

Good luck getting any of those reads to go through. All of your scum reads are in the other neighborhood and they're all insisting they're all town for mysterious reasons and we're just supposed to trust them.

Oh my fucking god.

This post exists for a fucking reason. Read it.

[Empire]

I want you to look at the choice words I use when defending Qwints, look at the strength of my defense, compared to the D1 defense of my sisters and ask yourself how one could get that strength of a read

ROLE INFORMATION

THANK YOU AT LEAST ONE FUCKING PLAYER IN THIS GAME ACTUALLY CAN READ BETWEEN THE FUCKING LINES

[Empire]

Because seriously if you're a mason neigbhorhood, I don't see the scum team being anyone but nacho/projectmatt now, with and outside chance of inte. And that doesn't make sense to me.

We are not a fucking mason neighborhood, jesus christ. Why do you think Shadoweh and I haven't unequivocably read each other as town (though we both think that way, it's clear from our posts that we don't *know* it for sure)?

[Empire]

Look, I'm going to let Marangal deal with this how she wants because it's her thing. The bottom line is that our Neighborhood is very, very weird.

[Empire]

Empire, why are you townreading Shadoweh?

It's a bunch of other stuff that I really don't want to get into at this time (though I will say that it has nothing to do with my role or hers). After Marangal says what she has to say, then I'll speak.

I already feel fucking awful for blowing up but I just wasn't in the mood to deal with this shit after the Xenologue game.

[Empire]

Tammy, it is not a matter of getting manipulated or whatever. We are talking role related information here. There's no gray area.

[Empire]

Also, Shadoweh's at L-2 right now and I'm about to head out for the night, so if we could please not run her up before this gets sorted out (well, I'd prefer her not getting run up period), that would be pretty phenomenal.

[Empire]

Fucking site kept giving me SQL errors while typing up a post.

Tammy, ugh, I really don't know (I will say though that Nacho and Generic would have to be playing very strong games if they're scum here).

P-edit: Bert, like I give a rat's ass.

[Empire]

Did I not fucking just say to wait until Marangal pops her head into the thread before I can talk about why I am reading Shadoweh as town? Is that so fucking hard for you to do?

[Empire]

Ugh, now I feel absolutely horrible.

Sorry, Bert, I didn't mean to demean what you had to say, I'm just incredibly mad because I've had to deal with a lot of horrible problems in my personal life and I just got out of what was possibly the single worst game of mafia I have ever played. Not too many people see this part of me come out in mafia games and I hate it when it does.

I'll just stop posting for a while until I'm in a better mindset.

[Empire]

Which grouping was marble in? Tammys hood, maras hood or a street rat like me, bert matt and nacho?

He was in Tammy's 'hood. I have a question about him actually but I'll ask it later.

[Empire]

No, it was Tammy, Llamarble, inte.

[Empire]

I have reservations about nacho. I want nacho to be town, and I don't know if I believe he's scum with desperado. Yes, bussing, but there's just something that makes me think that wasn't a bus. I don't really feel comfortable town reading nacho this early though.

The cockiness behind the push is what makes me think it wasn't a bus, ftr. It felt like there was genuine conviction behind it.

[Empire]

Man, watch it be something like Desperado was factional scum and the last two are Shoe and inte and we're all getting heated up over nothing.

That'd actually be hilarious in a weird, twisted, ironic way.

Anyway, my girlfriend is harassing me to go out. Bert, I promise I will go into detail with why I am reading Shadoweh as town as soon as Marangal comes in. All I ask is for just a little bit of patience. I know I haven't been the most active Today but it should be picking up and I want to give the thread another once over with a clear head because something just doesn't feel right with this game.

[Empire]

Sorry, Empire and all. I was being impatient, my bad. It happens, just ask Nacho who has seen me go from heaven to hell and go after him like my life depended on it.

Just confused as to what's going on lol

You don't have to apologize for anything. I was clearly in the wrong and I shouldn't have let all my frustrations from elsewhere into the game and treated you like I did.

I'm confused as fuck too and I'm thinking about what our options are here. I didn't even contemplate the Desperado-as-SK angle which just adds a wrench into this.

Anyway, back tonight, gotta go.

(Mara, sorry for putting you on the spot but the game's been stagnating because of this and we need to talk about at least some things out in the open before we can move forward.)

[Empire]

Phone posting because I am a pathetic mafia addict: I think we should massclaim in thread now that Mara outed. Thoughts?

(I'm trying really hard not to be mad that Shadoweh got poisoned but whatever, nothing I can do about it now.)

[Empire]

Tammy, I was weirded out by the claim too and both Shadoweh and I asked her to clarify more than once (especially because qwints' play is uh...underwhelming to say the least). But she insists she is reading it right.

[Empire]

Also thoughts on massclaim would be really appreciated, we might be able to break the game this way.

[Empire]

Alright, I'm back at my computer. Before I catch up and get into anything else, I am going to throw this out there again because I think either people missed it or it just got ignored.

I really really think we should consider an open, in-thread massclaim.

Off the top of my head, I can think of two immediate benefits to this idea:
1) It'll allow us to gain some insight into the setup, which is crucial to determining what Desperado actually was so we can move forward from that. If we come to the conclusion that he's factional scum, we can do the usual thing where we mine his ISO for interactions, etc.
2) The Desperado situation makes me think that either scum didn't have fakeclaims (probably more likely since I remember this to be the case in the other FG game I looked at) or that the mod simply fucked up. If it's the former, a massclaim would really box the scum in with what they can claim which can further our PoE.

Since Marangal's already been outed, I don't think we stand to lose a whole lot with this plan and I think we can gain a lot.

[Empire]

Everything. Name, role, flavor, the works.

Also, I think you said in the Neighborhood that inte suspected the setup to be high powered, which is actually pretty fucking bizarre given what kuribo claimed in thread. It could be that he knows more than he lets on.

What were the contents of his AtEish post that Llamarble found townish?

[Empire]

Oh and I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but did Llamarble claim in the QT or no?

[Empire]

That's fine.

Tammy, if we agree to do this, I'm fine with you deciding the order or having Bert popcorn to someone else since he already claimed.

[Empire]

I seriously doubt that there could have been a chance that three people could have died in a single day/night phase

And by the way, this is another reason I was heavily doubting that Desperado was an SK but couldn't say anything about it.

[Empire]

Uh, as the guy who suggested the massclaim in the first place and a member of the Evil Neighborhood, I'm pretty sure I never even implied having a problem with claiming my own stuff.

[Empire]

So you're going to lock up the game yourself because just one player is suggesting something different?

[Empire]

This isn't about our Neighborhood. This is about sticking to a plan that will help us win the game. You literally had no problem with this before and because Marangal says something contrary that we were all going to ignore anyways, you're going to throw a tantrum and derail the massclaim?

Yeah, whatever, I'm going to bed. Today has been painful.

[Empire]

We're not fucking agreeing with her plan. Jesus christ, Shadoweh literally just claimed. I'm going to claim. Qwints will absolutely claim his role. We're all ignoring her suggestion because the whole fucking point of this is that everyone his complete information.

What is the problem here?

[Empire]

This is absolutely ridiculous. I literally just said that we're ignoring her notion. That is, by definition, addressing the issue.

Yeah, going to bed sounds like the best idea right now, see you tomorrow.

[Empire]

You know what, fuck it, if the rest of you don't want to claim, then whatever. I brought up the idea after thinking about it for most of today hoping that it would put us a step closer to winning the game. It's not like I've been exactly stellar this game anyway so just ignore me.

Going to bed for real now.

[Empire]

Sorry for my tantrum last night. It was just really frustrating that when we finally were going to get some cooperation from the neighborhood it got shot down. Generic, I didn't refuse to claim AT ALL, I was refusing to claim in the situation where only a portion of the town was claiming. I'm not overly happy with the idea of a massclaim in the first place.

I'm not a great fan of massclaiming early either but I felt that was the best option given the game state and what we could stand to gain from it. Just please don't impute the behavior of one of us to the entire Neighborhood.
Remind me at some point to summarize the QT (it's not particularly interesting now that you know Marangal's claim but there might be something important I'm overlooking?).

As far as Nacho goes, Tammy, I honestly just don't even know any more. I need to give him another reread when I have a clear head but he looked town to me the last I checked. Maybe we're overlooking someone else?

As far as whether or not an sk would exist with a poisoner, I have no idea. I wouldn't also expect the poisoner to be a mason lover.

The problem is that you have potentially four deaths in one day/night cycle if Desperado is an SK and Marangal is town (lynch + poison + scum NK + SK NK). In a Large I could buy that, but in a Mini? I find that very very doubtful and is a big reason I'm leaning towards Desperado being factional scum.

I'm down for claiming whenever, just give me the signal.

[Empire]

that's my theory. a role in the neighborhood, a scum in the neighborhood, but then there should also be a role in the servants for true like balance or some shit.

It's possible but I also thought something like 1 scum among all 7 of us in a Neighborhood + 2 scum among the non-Neighbors. I just want to wait for this massclaim to pan out before we go on and solve this game (I just checked the deadline because I thought we were close to it but we thankfully still have over a week left so that's good).

@mod: Can you please prod inte?

[Empire]

Prod dodging, I'm about to head out for the day. Still waiting for inte's claim. Though honestly, I'm getting impatient and wouldn't mind someone else going before him (Shoe, at least he remembers this game exists every once in a while).

P-edit: Tammy, I'll look over him and Nacho again when I come back. It's been a long time since I played with matt and I don't think I've seen his scum game on the forums (he was pretty good at it off site). If I had to guess right now, I'd say he's town but not confident in it at all.

[Empire]

Waiting on Shoe and myself.

I can go ahead and claim now, doesn't really bother me. I'm just getting annoyed that we're waiting on two dudes who aren't doing anything.

[Empire]

You know, I woke up this morning thinking, "man, did inte claim??? I bet he did, and gosh I wonder what amazing and scintillating insight he brought into the game along with it. I hope he made up for all those worthless prod dodge posts he's been making since his replacement into this game." But I just checked the thread only to see nothing and that makes me oh so very sad.

I guess I'll go do the projectmatt meta scouring today since I have nothing better to do (though, ftr matt, old meta like that is probably not going to be useful but it's better than nothing).

[Empire]

This is ridiculous. Why did inte even bother replacing into this game if he's not going to play it?

Anyway, I claimed in the Neighborhood and partially in thread but I'm May Wingate. Aside from having access to the QT, I have no abilities whatsoever so I'm essentially a vanilla.

[Empire]

Ok so I'm gonna compile the claims right now, the next post will be setup spec-y stuff.

Wingate Neighborhood:

Ms Marangal - April Wingate, Poisoner/Mason Lovers with qwints
qwints - ???, Mason Lovers with Ms Marangal
Empire - May Wingate, Vanilla Neighbor
Shadoweh - June Wingate, Vanilla Neighbor

Guest Neighborhood:

Llamarble - Aetis, ???
inte - Albert, ???
Tammy - Lizen, Doctor/Watcher

Servants (pure VT claims):

Generic
Nachomamma8
projectmatt
The Purple Shoe
Bert

[Empire]

Ok so, despite Marangal's and Tammy's roles, we know the setup is incredibly low powered (e.g., nearly almost vanilla). I think we can all finally agree at this point that Desperado was factional scum as opposed to the SK for all the reasons we've talked about before + the low amount of town power. If Desperado does actually turn out to be some sort of SK or third party, I'm just going to be super pissed frankly. This also means we should be treating Tammy/Marangal/qwints as basically clear (again, if by some small chance it turns out that one of these three are actually scum I'm just going to be pissed).

As far as the distribution of scum among the Neighborhood/non-Neighborhood players go, there's pretty much three theories I can think of:

1) There's one scum in each Neighborhood and one scum among the non-Neighborhood pool (Desperado). I don't think this is the case. As far as our Neighborhood goes, Mara/qwints are basically clear, I know I'm town, and I am nowhere near confident that Shadoweh is going to flip scum. With regards to the other Neighborhood, as much as I think inte is a worthless lurky turd man, it's very possible he's still town (not too farfetched either given that kuribo looked solid when he was in the slot) and I think everyone can agree on Tammy being unambiguously town at this point just via claim alone if not her own play.

2) There's one scum among the seven Neighborhood folks and two among the non-Neighborhood (one of which was Desperado). This was the middle-of-the-road theory I remember putting forward a while back and I don't think very many people agreed. If this turns out to be the case, then it's probably inte (assuming Shadoweh is town anyway).

3) All three scum are in the non-Neighborhood pool and all seven people in the Neighborhoods are town. I've been toying with this one a lot lately mostly because of Desperado's fakeclaim. Like I said before, we know from that alone that either the scum do not have fakeclaims (meaning Desperado made his up and fucked up by creating one that was impossible - likely possibility given the last FG game didn't have fakeclaims if I remember correctly) or the mod screwed up and gave the scum team fakeclaims that were impossible/could be counterclaimed. Regardless of which, this could have led the scum team to default to the standard servant VT claim out of fear of being caught out like Desperado was.

So yeah, open to any thoughts what I just posted here. I only read through projectmatt's town games because I am a lazy procrastinating fuck but I should get through everything by the end of the day.

[Empire]

I think your assumptions of Shadoweh-town are bad.

I don't even know why I'm arguing about this since she's dying but I'll bite: what do you think of the idea that Desperado claimed something Shadoweh would have told him was impossible if they were scum together? (If you already answered this, then just ignore me.)

[Empire]

You want to know what concerns me? Desps fake claim. Where the hell did he pluck April wingate from if there is noone in the mara hood who is scum?

That's the rub though. It's either a mod-provided fakeclaim (which means the mod fucked up and gave him something that was directly cc'able) or he just made it up himself. If it's the latter, one of us in the Neighborhood would have told him that such a claim was impossible (because all Wingates are supposed to have access to the QT and he didn't).

So I just have no idea what in the world happened there.

[Empire]

im still here are we massclaiming im not caught up sitll (apologies)

Yes, claim in your next post.

[Empire]

I wouldn't call a doc-watcher underpowered, you know. But it increases my thoughts that the neighbourhoods aren't random, which I didn't want to talk about earlier. Two mason-poisoners and two regular town in one, two players and another power role in the other one. I think it's sad that an opportunity to abuse claiming role powers to your neighbours so the vanillas can fake being the pr's was wasted.

Neither of the PRs are underpowered by any means but they're still two roles among a sea of vanilla claims so I'd say that as a whole the town isn't exactly stacked here.

And yeah, it would have been fucking awesome to take some low risk gambits with PRs and stuff but that strategy requires trust among the Neighborhood members, something that...pretty clearly did not happen here.

I don't think the Neighborhoods are random either, there's definitely some meaning to it. I'm just trying to figure out what it means as far as distribution of scum is concerned.

[Empire]

Theres prob a scum in the lovers.

Why is it that there's always at least one player in every single one of my mafia games that just makes the experience completely unenjoyable for me? What did I do to deserve this?

Right now, I want reads from Empire and Generic.

I'm pretty much on the same boat as everyone else is in that I think it's down to inte/Shoe/you. Tammy/Marangal/qwints should be treated as cleared right now and I do still think the Generic/Nacho/Bert cluster is town at the moment. I'm just paranoid that I'm either grossly underestimating Bert (I haven't seen his scum game, and yes, he does play by gut) or one of the competent scum players like Nacho/Generic is playing really well which is why we've been struggling to pin down scumreads with any measure of confidence.

Basically, remember those "stacked games" we used to have back at EM with the 40 minute Day 1 and everyone looked town and the scum team always ended up being the two best scum players in the room. That's kind of what I'm worried about.

On the other hand though, it'll be fucking incredible amounts of ownage if Shadoweh is actually somehow scum and we end the game today.

Tammy, why did you have to draw the super awesome PR and not one of the people I'm getting worried about?

[Empire]

I'm actually not under any kind of impression that if Shadoweh would be partnered with Purple here if she actually is scum. Right now, that's the lynch that Shadoweh is aggressively pushing for and it seems like a foolish mistake considering it would literally be autoloss if her push got through.

Of course,

her pushing on her partner might explain her lack of aggression but that looks more like apathy than calcuated play.

I was just rereading this post and got to here. This isn't true -- according to #1570, she doesn't think Shoe is scum.

[Empire]

I've been looking through/skimming some of inte's games while waiting to head out to dinner and uh, he could very easily be scum here based on meta. Compare Arkham Horror II / Buckshot Mafia / 20th Century Philosophy with You Could Be Anyone and Mini 1382. He seems to be way more active and aggressive in his town games and just generally a lot cockier in his attitude. As scum, he's rather lurky and there's no real conviction behind any of his pushes or reads, which I think matches his play here (see: how he calls out Tammy/Bert/Generic as people he finds scummy, yet just ends up apathetically voting Shoe at the end of D1). I'll look at this in more detail when I come back as well as finish the projectmatt one.

[Empire]

One last thing before I head out to dinner:

might b 3 more scum still with heavy town power roles but lets not talk about that right now

Did anything happen in the Neighborhood that would prompt inte to make this post?

P-edit: Uhh, really Nacho? Because I don't see much of a difference at all.

[Empire]

Posting a prod dodge from my phone right now, I'll have a more complete post later tonight.

Tammy, I still lean towards lynching inte today. This is going to be another situation like last time where the last time where the vote I put down is not going to move.

Also, projectmatt reacts like this as town. I can't link it but read his ISO in that Cheery Dog Mini Normal, can't remember the number right now, should be under recently completed games.

[Empire]

I'll put a vote down after I talk things over with Tammy (if she's around later today anyway).

[Empire]

Also, was Shadoweh around in the 2 hour period where Bert had his L-1 vote down? Otherwise, you can't really say Shadoweh had the opportunity to hammer.

And as far as the nameclaim is concerned, I have no idea. I'll talk more later since I'm about to go watch a movie.

P-edit: I'm playing this Goodbar-style (only projectmatt will get this reference).

Sorry, the general crippling paranoia I inherited from Tammy has me it really hard to put down a vote in this game.

[Empire]

Hey I just got back, I'm compiling the projectmatt meta stuff right now (had to go through 6 games of stuff so hopefully this ends up being worth something).

Man, inte's recent posts have got me second guessing that read =/

[Empire]

Alright so I'm going to try and truncate this projectmatt thing as much as humanly possible but sorry if this ends up being really long-winded. A couple of the things I wanted to focus on here were: (1) reactions to being pressured/voted/suspected, and (2) aggressiveness, or lack thereof, in his pushes. I took out the two oldest games on each end because it seemed redundant, but if anyone wants me to go talk about them then let me know.

TOWN:

Mini 1407 - This is a game that really stuck out in my mind when people here were accusing him of responding "terribly" to suspicion as he was almost certainly going to be the lynch for the day until I had replaced in. One of the things I think is easily noticeable here in this ISO is that he does actually get extremely defensive/reactive when attacked, almost to the point of personally insulting someone (e.g., #97, asking a player if he has a chemical imbalance). He does tend to get caught up in logic battles with his accusers and is often incredibly dismissive in his tone, as shown by his response to havingfitz in #403. As far as his reads go, there's a lot less meat to them in that game but I'd suggest it was largely due to the difference in content the game produced (he replaced in after quite a bit of stuff happened whereas Mini 1407 was an inactive dirge).

Mini 1393 - I think you see much of the same pattern here, but a bit less so as he isn't really suspected very much here (only in the early game). He tends to get a lot more waffly/paranoid in the late game, second guessing his townreads on the more experienced/competent players like mastin and Slandaar, something that is actually missing here in this game (at least not to the extent of the other games).

Micro 92 - One thing I see a lot of in his scum game is a lot of what I've called "escape hatches" - places in reasoning where scum often like to point out plenty of bad things a townread has done that ultimately nullifies the read itself so they have something to go back to (#84) and a lot of posturing about activity (which, if you note, there's none of in his town games). He spends the entire game not really having any solid reads and only making feeble attempts to push them forward. Hard to see any places where he reacts to pressure because nobody seriously suspects him during the course of the game (aside from KK at one point and he had a rather muted reaction to the post).

Open 391 - Here, I don't really see as strong of a reaction to being suspected and he even gives up and self hammers at the very end in 4 person mylo (though I don't have time right now to go look at whether it was auto loss for him or whatever). Lots of pretty stereotypical scum moves here: leading questions designed to make the person being questioned look bad, forced emotion posts of the "please don't be scum" variety, and lazy/skeletal reads.

P-edit: Shadoweh, I didn't know you were a Rufus Wainwright fan (it's because he's Canadian, isn't he?)...I'm listening to Tyler, the Creator right now and feel disgusting in comparison.

[Empire]

Oh, I'm super lame, there's supposed to be a big header up there just before Micro 92 that says "SCUM".

[Empire]

Oh shadoweh

You murderous whench

Did you, perchance, murder our beloved lord

And hope To make others take

The fall for youeh?

See this is why I don't sing or write poetry. I hope you're happy!

It hurts.

[Empire]

Wait shadoweh has never sen the never ending story?

That's. just. Sad.

To be fair, she's not really missing a whole lot.

Anyway, realtalk, I'm still leaning against lynching projectmatt based on that. What are your thoughts?

[Empire]

I don't really like the inte lynch either but considering this whole game has been trying to pick off the people on the lower end of the Sliding Scale of Townieness, I probably won't feel good about any lynch.

Before you go into that goodnight, Shadoweh, what anime should I keep watching? Steins;Gate or WataMote?

I will miss you lots, though I will never forgive you for killing our father =(

(I may or may not have been drinking tonight.)

[Empire]

God, if Nacho's town like I think he is, he's never going to let me live this game down, is he?

(Let's just say we're even for Xenologue, eh?)

[Empire]

Well, Tammy, uh as much as I'd like to say we're winning this game today, I'm not confident we will. So what are your final reads and stuff before we just move on with this ceremony?

[Empire]

I'm going to sleep too. I should be around tomorrow before 2 PM EST to lay down my vote but it won't move after it's placed.

[Empire]

Hey I'm here right now but not for much longer, let me know if you guys want me to drop the vote right now. Otherwise, it'll have to wait 'til the end of the day (but it will happen before deadline).

P-edit: bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt, laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame.

[Empire]

That was @projectmatt, not Bert.

[Empire]

I'm about to head out again and there's no guarantee I'll be here at deadline, so...

Vote: inte

That's L-1 for anyone who cares. Hopefully, this ends the game.

[Empire]

Just checking in, don't have time to post right now.

I was crunching the numbers during the Night and with no death it might be legitimately autowin, but I'll report back in tomorrow with that.

[Empire]

HEY EMPIRE HOW ARE YOU FEELING TODAY

Yeah yeah, ok, I'm bad, you don't have to rub it in.

[Empire]

I definitely would have killed Tammy last Night (well, I would have N1'd her for sure and then gone after one of {Llamarble, Nacho} on N2, but that's besides the point).

Since no one died last Night and we have 9 alive, it might legitimately be autowin even if we somehow fuck up today (doubtful since the missing NK points strongly to Shoe being scum). I crunched the numbers and here's how a hypothetical worst-case-for-town situation would go:

9 alive (poison/lynch) -> 7 alive (Tammy dies) -> 6 alive (lynch) -> 5 alive (Marangal/qwints die) -> 3 alive (poison/lynch) -> 1 alive

This plan would require Mara to not poison on one of the Nights and for one town player to be alive at endgame. I'd say we all just pick one player who's universally townread to be that 1 dude. I know I'm town (and you're out of your goddamn mind if you think I would no-kill into autoloss) but if you guys are uncomfortable with having me endgame, I'd be fine with passing the torch to someone else that we all agree on.

Thoughts on this?

[Empire]

You see this, and still I ask you why you aren't quicklynching matt.

Uh, did you actually read the post? I said we need to decide on who should endgame in this autowin scenario and I'd rather do it while everyone here is alive.

I'll vote when I feel like it.

[Empire]

This is a DEMOCRACY motherfucker!

See, what's going to happen is we're going to have primaries and then we're going to take the two candidates with the most votes and have a runoff election, like good democratic citizens.

(Or maybe I'll just wait for everyone else to say what they want, I guess, but that sounds mad boring, wouldn't you agree?)

[Empire]

Empire. Were the character names in your hood shared?

This is vital.

Not in the pregame, no.

This is mostly to show that I still exist. I'm a little bit hungover, so I'll catch up tonight after dinner.

[Empire]

Ok so I just want to say that I'm really really sorry for not having been around the past few days (I didn't post anything in the Neighborhood aside from a bit of stuff past the Shoe flip) and couldn't have stopped the Generic kill due to IRL stuff. I was debating big time between him and Nacho for which townie to endgame in my autowin scenario but fucked up by not having the time to post.

Second, can someone who actually knows about balance tell me which is more likely to be the case between the last scum not having a NK vs. Marangal/qwints being third party lovers?

It'd be kind of funny (and perverse) if I was the only townie in my Neighborhood.

[Empire]

Just letting you guys know that I PASSED THE FLORIDA BAR EXAM WOOOO and the swearing in ceremony is tomorrow afternoon/evening, so my posting will be almost nil until that's done.

[Empire]

Just got back from the ceremonies and stuff, this is mostly just to avoid the prod. Will post tomorrow.

[Empire]

I'm catching up right now but need to respond to these two things first before I ponder the setup.

She announced the Generic kill in the neighborhood beforehand?

Yeah but I wasn't around to stop it from happening and I'm honestly just hating myself for it.

Like, the gravity of how shitty that poisoning was only hit me just recently.

I've been kind of tuned out since it looks like an autowin.

Let's be honest here, you were never tuned in.

[Empire]

For anyone who cares, I just looked up the setup in FG's last game and it had a Mafia Ninja, just food for thought.

(Almost done catching up.)

[Empire]

My last scum game, Desperado explicitly said in the QT during N1 that he was the one that would likely not be able to go far, and that it was important that Penguin and I stay alive. He literally suicided on D3 via gambit, and also took one for the team on D2 by quickhammering a bodyguard who had not claimed because he would likely have been next to go. In addition, he remarked he had been playing poorly throughout. That's not much confidence right there.

Ok this is something that actually really needs to get looked at. Maybe I'm just tired but if discussion in the scum QT pregame centered around Desperado getting bussed, it could explain why he fakeclaimed something impossible and why he just generally seemed distant.

[Empire]

Ok so the way I understand it is that we basically have two scenarios here:

1) Desperado/Shadoweh was one entire scum team and the missing NKs are due to the fact that they're gone now. Marangal/qwints are basically a weird second scum team with a poison shot as their NK. While this theory does explain why we've been having trouble finding the scum in this game (as both scum teams could have been genuinely hunting the other team), it basically requires Llamarble to have been a town PR and even then I find this theory kind of stretchy (two town PRs vs. two scum teams, both with factional NKs? How is that balanced at all?).

2) We only have one scum team (Desperado/Shadoweh/???) and the final member of the team is either a Ninja who whiffed twice due to Tammy's protect or has been intentionally no-killing for god knows what reason.

Honestly, I'm not sure Llamarble was a town PR. The way I had the setup pictured in my head w.r.t. the Neighborhood distribution was:
Guests -> Town PR, Town Vanilla, Town Vanilla
Wingates -> Town PR, Town Lover there to balance the Town PR's power, Scum Vanilla, Town Vanilla (I do think Shadoweh was Vanilla, as that seems to make sense given what we know + there was a Mafia Neighbor in the last FG game with no additional power)

Someone (Bert?) asked me how sure I am about Tammy's alignment and all I have to say about that I'll be pretty surprised to say the least if she turns out to be scum here somehow (she won't).

I'm leaning towards #2 right now but this has been basically a long, useless waffly post because I have no idea what's going on in this game anymore.

[Empire]

Marangal and qwints, the next time you get in here, can you guys paraphrase your flavor?

Also, Bert, are you allowed to link the scum QT to the Castle game here?

Thanks in advance.

I need to think about this some more, this game's been really bizarre.

[Empire]

WHAT THE FUCK WAS THAT A HAMMER

[Empire]

By my count that's a hammer.

...

That guy better be fucking scum or I will just have no words.

[Empire]

(inb4 scum flip and I look like a retard.)

[Empire]

projectmatt [5] - Ms Marangal, Nachomamma8, qwints, Bert, Tammy (LYNCH)

^ this is what it should look like unless I missed an unvote somewhere from someone.

[Empire]

I think this game might have surpassed The Game That Shall Not Be Mentioned as the single worst game of mafia I have ever played.

[Empire]

YEAH TAMMY IM SURE HE'S GONNA FLIP TOWN

Are you fucking high?

[Empire]

Sorry but I have like 0 motivation to post right now. I'm going to go play video games or something and pray that I somehow die tonight (fat chance but whatever).

[Empire]

Let's not lie - the lynch is going to be between Empire/Bert/Nacho tomorrow and you guys will start having to take stances on each other. I'd start doing that now.

I don't know. I have a hard time seeing them as scum (both of them would have to be playing excellent games as scum frankly) and right now I'm not really in the right frame of mind for this.

I'll think about it over the Night phase.

[Empire]

are you finally believing me that qwints and mara are 3rd party aka scum?

No. But if we lynch qwints today, it will confirm mara and won't end the game.
I'm currently suspicious of Empire and I'm waiting for Tammy to look back over him.

Go fuck yourself it you think I would intentionally NK as scum repeatedly while keeping the one player who could read me better than literally anyone else on the site alive for several day phases.

Never have I been more angry and have felt more demotivated over a game of mafia as town. Part of me just wants to proxy my vote to Tammy and just prod dodge for the rest of it but I'm trying to retain whatever dignity I have as a town player. It took all if my restraint to not blow up at Marangal for poisoning the one non PR I felt comfortable having as town.

I've been drinking and I'm at a party so ill post more tonight or tomorrow when I'm sober. Can you please actually not wuicklynch this time for the love of god? Thanks.

[Empire]

Actually it might be auto win if we lynch qwints.

I'm kind of drunk right now but if we lynch him and he is town, we'll have 5 alive (4 alive if the scum decide to kill Tammy). We can have Mara poison one of Nacho/Bert and lynch the other.

Well it is auto win only if you have me endgame but I'm obvious town anyway and I will strong arm the fuck out of this plan so deal with it.

[Empire]

Really Nacho? You unironically think I, who has only been scum twice on the forums and whose last completed scum games were a year ago, did the following things:

a) no killed repeatedly
b) kept the one player who can read me better than anyone else on the forums alive for 5 Day phases
c) all the while suggesting autowin gameplans that, if followed, would put me in autoloss if I were scum

...all in a high risk, complicated gambit to make myself appear more town.

[Empire]

Like, do you realize how unbelievably retarded you'd have to be to think there is any chance of me being scum in this game?

[Empire]

Trying to crunch through some worst case scenario numbers here:

Scenario #1 (qwints is town, the mafia suddenly decide to NK Tammy):
Marangal, Bert, Empire, Nacho (poison/lynch Nacho/Bert)
Marangal, Empire endgame

Scenario #2 (qwints is town, the mafia no kill again):
Marangal, Tammy, Empire, Bert, Nacho (poison/lynch Nacho/Bert)
Marangal, Tammy, Empire endgame

So from the way it looks here, it's basically town autowin fmpov unless:
1) Tammy is mafia (lmfao)
2) Something interferes with Marangal's poison that makes us unable to go through 2 people in the next Day phase (possible but unlikely given a lot of reasons - let me know if you want me to share them)

P-edit: Tammy definitely wouldn't. I don't know anything about Bert's scum game so *shrug*

And if you

really

think I'm capable of doing anything other than being a lurky/prod dodgy turd monger as scum, go ahead and read the two scum games I have and cringe at them.

[Empire]

By the way, the next time I play a similar setup like this (partial no reveal with at least one Neighborhood), I'm going to just push a N1 massclaim in the Neighborhood. Not knowing what Llamarble was is making things way harder than it should be for me.

[Empire]

If Llamarble was vanilla and Marangal/qwints are both third party or whatever, then the town here is incredibly underpowered, even considering Tammy's role.

[Empire]

I get the being paranoid and stuff but let's be honest here: unless you think I've gone from the worst scum game on the site to a future Don Corleone winner overnight, there's just no way I'm scum and you + everyone should be able to see that.

I haven't even dived into my own posts to showcase all the things I'd never ever in a million years post as scum either.

Man, this game blows.

[Empire]

Maybe it is actually the lovers? It'd explain why we all struggled to get solid reads here (even Llamarble did and I don't think I've ever seen him openly struggle like that).

Doesn't explain the weirdness of the setup though.

[Empire]

Also, I just realized that if they are actually third party/scum/whatever, then my entire family is full of murderous fucks and I'm the only cool one.

That's pretty fucked up.

[Empire]

!!!

An idea!

Marangal and qwints, while we wait for stuff, would you guys mind paraphrasing your flavor for us?

[Empire]

I would love flove love for it to be the lovers, because then my melt down on day two concerning the other neighborhood would have been warranted AND not just because

I'm a total crazy person

.

(Bolded is still true regardless, just fyi.)

*ducks*

[Empire]

TWO WOMEN BETRAYED THE FATHER
ONLY THE SON STAYS FAITHFUL

Uh my character's a chick + Marangal/qwints would be the same alignment but I see where you're going with this.

[Empire]

Just posting to say I'm here.

Really? I never noticed.

Free lynch as in being driven by scum? No considering you are the one pushing for his lynch and tammy is thinking about it while bert is still talking to keep like i am town while still reading me and qwints as asleep scum AND he is just sheeping like a mofo

Wait, how is the wagon on qwints "scum driven" when there should be one scum left from your point of view and you think said scumbag is just sheeping everything?

[Empire]

Random question I just thought of while in the shower: Do you guys think Desperado was telling the truth about him being a self-watcher? If yes, how does that fit into the whole setup balance thing? (I'm assuming Shadoweh was just a standard Vanilla Neighbor which I think is a pretty safe one to make)

[Empire]

It's quite possible. Also I was working on a thought about marble but I need to get some work done before I try yo make sense of my thoughts.

Did anything come out of this, Tammy?

[Empire]

GODS THIS GAME HAS BEEN INFURIATING.

[Empire]

VOTE: Nacho

This lynch confirmed town nonsense has to be part of a grander plan. I can't quite figure it out, but I'm not willing to let Nacho live and pull an unpleasant surprise.

Do you even think he's scum? I remember you saying a while back that you felt confident he was town and that's why you were on autopilot.

[Empire]

@mod - I will be V/LA until Sunday the 6th as I've got a lot of stuff going on IRL to deal with until then. I'll try to post in the meantime when I can. Apologies for the inconvenience.

If you guys need me to vote or whatever, I'll try to do it on phone but I can't promise I'll be keeping up with things while I'm gone.

[Empire]

Alright, fine. And I agree this Day's sucked.

Vote: qwints

[Empire]

Sorry I don't have the heart or the energy to troll Tammy right now.

I'm town, Nacho is town, this game's a wrap.

About fucking time, too.

Whatever.

Back to dinner with the girlfriend.

[Empire]

Oh and Tammy I did mention Mara claiming because she thought it was the scum QT. I figured she misread her role PM.

P-edit: Wow way to suck =(

Still town.

[Empire]

Eh Nacho you'll see what I mean when the QT gets posted.

[Empire]

Oh and before I go I just have to say that Llamarble is unironically the best scumhunter on the site. Like holy shit his play in this game.

[Empire]

I can't believe I was the only townie in my QT.

I thought for setup reasons Mara had to be town too given the low amount of claimed power we had.

Man, fuck surprise multiball.

(Also, I probably need to go on hiatus again or something, this game was pathetic on my end.)

[Empire]

OH MAN LEMME SEE IF I CAN GET SOME SONG LYRICS IN BEFORE LOCK