Just an fyi, I'm a bit busy this weekend with :real-life-happenings: so my posting quantity won't be as great as it normally is but expect it to return back to normal on Monday.
Mini 1489 - VisCon: Murder at Wingate Mansion [Game Over]
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Empire Mafia Scum
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Empire Mafia Scum
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I tend to be pretty self conscious about my activity, so yes.In post 14, Desperado wrote:Making excuses already?
Uh yes, I went to bed last night early and the slot was still occupied by *checks* Grimgroove. I had woken up and just posted in the thread assuming he was still in the game since I didn't really see any notice from the mod so I was surprised to see her in the game.
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Well ok, I don't give a shit if you think it's lackluster. It's the truth.In post 21, Nachomamma8 wrote:your excuses are quite lackluster.
Seriously, am I being trolled right now? Because this is kinda what it feels like.
...oh god, I really am being trolled right now. Is this the suffering I inflict onto others when I troll? If so, I'm so sorry Tammy for ever trolling you.
It took me a while to realize what you were talking about here and uh, yeah, maybe later.In post 30, Tammy wrote:Oh hey empire, you should update your sig.
Also ftr I'm not nervous at all. I'm actually pretty stoked that we've got a partial Yoloville reunion going and I'm hoping we're all town so we can end this thing quickly(or you can be scum and I can take great sadistic pleasure in lynching you).
P-edit: Wow, Llamarble I expected you to have my back here =/
P-edit x2: What newbie game are you referring to, TheGarantula?-
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Uh no, you are not allowed to discuss ongoing games.In post 35, TheGarantula wrote:I don't think I'm supposed to link to it; it's ongoing. It's still okay for me to reference it like that though, right?
Well yes and I'm pretty happy you can towninate fast without me having to troll you as a catalyst.In post 36, Tammy wrote:I'm town, but you know that already don't you?
Question for you: Is Nacho town?-
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Right, I forgot you're not a super cool master scumhunter like yours truly. Anyway, I wanted to see if your mind went to the same place as mine here and it looks like it did. There's a subtle difference in approach but I don't think it's alignment-related so...townish but still taking a wait-and-see approach.In post 41, Tammy wrote:Dude. You're asking me for my nacho read on page two? I think his demeanor is generally townish, kinda reminds me how he was in 501, but I don't ever have an actual read on nacho this early.
You don't have to just take my word for it. There's lots of people in here that have experience with her so if we're all seeing her as town, that's definitely a good sign.In post 51, Ms Marangal wrote:I'll take your word on Tammy for now, until I see reasons to believe otherwise. Still fairly unsure of my ability to accurately read her early on
Anyway, going to bed now. Reads still in the incubation stage so hopefully I'll have something more substantial once more time's passed and people really start digging into the thread.-
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Half the room has played with me so they very well know what to expect when it comes to my play.In post 63, Generic wrote:Also, when I switch to laptop I will give a filler reason, but a couple of empires posts feel forced and one or two people have come in to gang up on nacho since he pointed to empire... Something feels off, but I am hesitant to believe people on mafia scum would so obviously chainsaw or town clear a scum buddy on day 1... Distancing and bussing all day long, but blatant buddy work? Not so sure.
That's not even what I was doing. I know exactly why you're town (you've rolled scum a lot here and offsite so you're super excited and stoked to be town in this game) but the others don't. The point of that line is to make Marangal, who I had town at that point because of her paranoia of you, more secure in that read. I've kind of lost all patience at this point with people and after seeing shit like our slot's townread on DV being ignored in The Wire, I want to make sure everyone's on the same page.In post 65, Tammy wrote:This feels weird empire. Don't feel weird. I mean I'm definitely town, but I'd kinda expect you to know why I am. You making it a group read effort makes me feel all wobbly.
(Pssst. You should read the crossed out part, you know I could never give that up <_<)In post 78, Nachomamma8 wrote:Buddying Tammy isn't going to stop her from her reading you as scum; everyone knows you would never regret trolling Tammy.
Like I said above there, it's because I have no patience for shit anymore so my knee jerk reaction was to read that and get mad. I didn't see you were trolling until page 2 or whenever.In post 167, Nachomamma8 wrote:He does look town at the moment, although I will say that it's weird as fuck he didn't pick up on me trolling him sooner, considering his familiarity with my meta.
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@Desperado/Tammy:In what way do you guys feel that Generic is playing differently here than he did in The Red Wedding?
@Generic:Please answer the following:
1) Why is there a high correlation between {your suspects} and {people who suspect you}?
2) In #63, you say you find some of my early posts forced. However, in #170, you make an argument that necessarily assumes that I am town as a basis for your scumread on Nacho despite the fact that I had only posted something tantamount to a prod dodge since then. What changed?
P-edit: The Red Wedding-
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Also, can people please stop using hypocrisy as a scumtell? It's not even remotely close to being one given that people are far less likely to be objective/impartial about their own actions than they are about other people's.
Also also, Desperado's town bloc looks solid except I'd swap Generic for Shadoweh.
Also also also, I was gonna neatly lay out why you guys should move over to Gaiden but Desperado beat me to it.
P-edit: Alright, well, I have him scheduled for a meta dive when I get more time because I personally found him suspicious in how he's constructed his posts against Marangal/Nacho in that way where he doesn't seem at all curious about their alignments but just wants to make them look as bad as possible to get them strung up. But I have a feeling this might be more of a playstyle or a site meta language barrier issue given that he plays mostly off-site in places like MTGS so I want to look into his games here to compare how he plays as both alignments.-
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Mostly because I feel like she's playing somewhat similarly to this game (bonus: Llamarble, Tammy, and myself were all town here while Nacho was scum).In post 209, Desperado wrote:What are you two seeing in Shadow?-
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I think the circumstances of this game are different, but if you don't mind, I'd rather wait for Shadoweh to respond to this first before I go into more detail on what I see.In post 212, Desperado wrote:Can you be more specific? I'm not seeing it.
In particular, Shadow was much, much more proactive with their vote in that game. This quote:
"I expect you to treat a suspect like a suspect. Whether you're rude or polite about it, I should be able to tell you suspect them from reading what you say about them. I'm waiting for your big reads wall at this point to see what you really feel."
Was particularly interesting. Who does Shadow suspect in this game?-
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Just got back from hanging out with Mina (it was fun!), will do a full catch-up tomorrow and the Generic meta report. Couple of things before I go to bed:
@Llamarble:
1) About Gaiden, I'm not seeing what you're seeing at all. I found that post full of posturing and the timing of both that post and the preceding very problematic. Why can Gaiden only be scum with Generic?
2) Can you elaborate on what you liked about the Marangal post you quoted?
P-edit: Ok, Desperado, I'll answer your question tomorrow when I wake up.-
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Uh, that's not even remotely what I said. If you'd actually taken the time to read my post more closely, you'd see that the bottom half of it was a preview edit directed to the post above me from Desperado talking about Generic. I said I wanted to look into his meta because I could see a lot of the issues I'm having with his play being largely playstyle related and not alignment related. The first half of it was talking about Gaiden. I never once even implied I was waiting on a meta dive w.r.t. Gaiden.In post 273, Bert wrote:Huh? Have you done this meta-dive yet that you just pretty much promised us?
"YALL SHOULD MOVE TO GAIDEN, HE'S ON MY SCUMLIST, but you know maybe you shouldn't because I need to compare how he/she is as both alignments"
Please do better than this....
I don't think you understood what I was getting at. Of course you didn't explicitly call me town. But you did bring up an argument that presumes I am town. In #170, you said you think Nacho is trying to suck up to me so I vote the way he wants me to. The only way that makes any sense is if Nacho's scum and I'm town; otherwise, he would have no motivation to suck up to me in that way to influence my vote. I want to know why you made this argument then if you still have me as a null-read.In post 274, Generic wrote:On point 2 first, you got that wrong. My scum read on nacho incorporated a point that HE flipped from a scum read on you to a town read on you after just a prod dodge post. I never called you town during that entire event.
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@Desperado:
1) From what I've seen of Shadoweh in other games, she's usually a lot more self-assured/"meaner" as town and that's how she came across to me in her interactions with Generic. As scum, she tends to play a lot more reserved with her emotions and often plays up the "cutesiness" factor. I linked Yoloville as the was the most recent experience I had with her and I just generally see a lot more of the former here.
2) As far as the circumstances of this game being different goes, #258 is the kind of response I was expecting from her mostly because it's the same way I've been feeling about the game. Aside from Gaiden and possibly Generic, most of the people posting look pretty town to me so it's hard to find other suspects I'd feel confident in. Judging from that post, it seems like Shadoweh feels the same way (as an aside, I do think Shadoweh is perfectly capable of manufacturing reasons to vote people as scum and would have done so here if she were scum).
@Nacho:Really interested in seeing what you've got from that other site. I'll probably be registering myself soon enough but I'd much rather get through Generic's meta here as I feel that's the most relevant seeing as other site's play the game differently.
@Bert:You have a lot of suspects, but is there anyone you are reading as town? If so, who?-
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The question has less to do with you and more to do with her. Of course I have my own opinion and I'll make my own comments when I feel ready.In post 292, Bert wrote:Woah, woah. Why are you asking Tammy about me? Why don't you make some of your own comments first.-
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I lost Internet connection at my house so I can only phone post for a bit.
Why are you even asking me this question when you know the answer and you know it's not alignment indicative? I obviously voted Gaiden in RVS because I thought he'd give me an alignment indicative response if wagoned.In post 307, Tammy wrote:Why did you vote for gaiden in rvs?
What the fuck? I expect the rest of these guys to be slow in figuring out I'm town here but you? I can go and point out every single one of my towntells in this game (you can also read Nacho's post, he did a fairly good job of pointing them out). And I've been doing a pretty decent job of keeping up with the game too so I don't even know why you feel even remotely weird about me.In post 309, Tammy wrote:You feel weird this game.
I'll talk about the Bert question when I'm not stuck on a phone.-
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Empire Mafia Scum
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Empire Mafia Scum
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I got internet back! Unfortunately, I'm going over to a friend's today. I'll be back later tonight though, I absolutely want to get through the Generic meta stuff at the very least as well as provide a full accounting of all my reads with reasoning now that I think I've seen enough to that.
I asked you about Bert because he did a number of things that I think town-you would definitely like, the paranoia of you being one thing, and I wanted to see if you'd point them out so I could feel better about having read you as town. #240 is another example of something I liked about him that I expected you to see, the line about how he doesn't feel like he could ever lead a successful case against you read extremely genuine and I'm surprised you didn't mention anything of it. I'm still reading you as town but I'm not as confident as I want to be I guess. I don't know, I think part of this is just motivated by the fear that one day you'll just burn me as scum because I underestimated your game.In post 307, Tammy wrote:Don't know how to read Bert. He kinda seems similar to 501 in tone, but since he replaced out early I didn't get a chance to see what his town game really looks like. I believe he plays a lot with nacho, so he'd be a better person to ask.
I did like the paranoia he threw at me immediately upon entering. However, I did let soo slip by me in mafia.raptured partially for this because I wrote it off as town for a little while, but Bert's felt more natural. I don't know what I did to erase that paranoia though.
Also, why weren't you indignant when I responded to you yesterday? I remember in Yoloville you lashed out at me saying something like "how dare you say I can't be paranoid of you!" but there's nothing like that here.
(As an aside, I think Bert is very different from SoO in that he seems a lot more like a "heart-on-sleeve" kind of player and that mimicking that level of transparency is very hard to do as scum. SoO just kinda lurked his way through the whole game without offering solid opinions on anything.)
Ugh, ok, I really don't think this guy is scum at this point. Generic would pretty much have to be a top douchebag to have posted something so emotionally charged about how he'd never use his personal problems as leverage in an online game. And he doesn't seem the type.In post 330, Generic wrote:Then whoever those people are they have hot no fucking self respect.
Because I guarantee you one thing bert, I will never use my home life as a weapon in an online game. A fucking game.
I've endgamed twice out of the three times I've been mafia on this site. Not one of those games do I bring in cheap tricks to get there, I simply play the game.
And I noticed you never denied that you are accusing me if using me home life to avoid being lynches. Classy person you are.
I don't mind at all and if you could make the account a public one (I'm assuming it's not against the rules here?), that would be pretty fucking amazing.In post 350, Nachomamma8 wrote:I would like to talk to Mara about the other site first, if you don't mind. Although I wonder...
Mara, Gen, would it be OK if I made the account a public one so people could access its meta?-
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Forgot to respond to this. The reason I didn't out my opinion along with the question is because I did not want to influence Tammy's answer to the question. Like I said, the question was more about trying to solidify my read on her than it was about you. If you want original opinions from me, can you wait until tonight? Sometimes, it just takes me a while to get into a game especially when my last completed game was something like 3 months ago.In post 361, Bert wrote:1) I wanted Empire to give original opinions. What would be ACCEPTABLE and less pingy to my scumdar is: "I believe Bert is so-and-so (opinion). What do you think, Tammy?" I wanted Empire to bring something to the table that hasn't been brought up before.-
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Hey Tammy, I don't know if you actually bothered to read anything I've been saying but I made it very clear that I do have reads and that I told Bert I'd be posting them tonight. You'd also know that I've hinted at several of them already and have even explained my reasoning for some. And if you actually knew a damn thing about me then you'd know I'm not the most confident player in the world despite me joking about it, doubly so when my last completed game was 3 fucking months ago.
And I don't know if you realize this, but I do actually hold your scum game to a higher standard than you do for yourself. Believe it or not, I read you as town in Open 501 for most of the game (and even Regfan did too). I *think* I misread you in the Red Wedding too but I'm not sure since I focused mostly on my Reck scumread while following it. So go fuck yourself if you think this paranoia is fake because I can assure you that it is very very real.
And fucking lol at you saying that I'm not allowed to be indignant while you are. If you could stop bring self-absorbed for maybe ten fucking seconds then MAYBE you'd see that I'm also asking you these things to field your reactions because I want to be more certain of you because sorting you out early is my #1 priority.
And finally, there is literally, postively no way I'd play this way as scum or interact with you like this at all as scum. Why wouldn't I just coast on by hardtownreading you and just filing you away? Why the fuck would I even try this shit?
Literally posting this from my phone at dinner with my friends and now my night's hampered. If you don't think I'm obvious fucking town after this, then you need to hand in your badge because you're off the fucking force which is sad because I have objectively the worst scum game on this site (my last completed scum game being over a year ago now).-
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Great. I'm glad they weren't paranoid about you. But I'm not them and they're not me. And when was I fooled by Nacho? If you're talking about Yoloville, he only fooled me for one Day phase because of a lame meta read I didn't bother to double check at the time. I remember calling a CES/Nacho/Shadoweh (lol) team as early as Day 2 and I definitely remember casting the deciding vote that ultimately got him lynched over CES in Day 3. I have plenty of reasons to think he's town in this game (see my upcoming reads post for why).In post 398, Tammy wrote:I get part of that. I still don't understand why you would be paranoid of me in this game, especially when the people who were *in* those games with me, and were fooled by me, aren't exhibiting that paranoia. What strikes me as odd is that you have been fooled by Nacho before but you're not exhibiting any signs of paranoia about him.
Me getting indignant was my knee-jerk reaction, so I'm really sorry for coming off that way. I am actually town this game and wanted to just get the super strong :goodtownfeelings: from you so we can bounce ideas off each other and stuff like we did in Castle Zar or Yoloville (well, pre-Day 4 anyway) or hell any of our games as Cerulean. And yeah, I did think the new job thing was a possible factor behind your "feeling weird" about me but it's definitely not the only thing and I wouldn't have a reason to just assume that it was.In post 398, Tammy wrote:I can't stop being self-absorbed; it's who I am. I didn't say that you are not allowed to be indignant. I'm saying that you can't be indignant at me for not just reading you as town while at the same time questioning me. Because you are not understanding that maybe I have the same doubts you are. You can't go "how dare you not see me as town" and then turn around and go "I'm not confident in my town read on you." That's my point. And you also don't get to tell me that MAYBE I'm asking you things to field your reactions, and then not recognize that I also asked you questions to field your reactions to sort out my read on you. I even literally said that. I told you you were feeling weird to me. After your reaction, I said that I had hoped for that type of reaction. Instead of recognizing that, you went OH MY GOD WAIT WHY AREN'T YOU BEING INDIGNANT? when I made it clear that I liked your reaction. And instead of recognizing what I said to Bert that the problem lay with me and that I was having a weird day, which I shouldn't need to explain you know that yesterday was the first real day at my new job and that I was nervous about it so me feeling weird just in life in general and it maybe bleeding into the game, should be something that you should recognize. Not only that but i've referenced how stupid my paranoia of you was in yoloville more than once, so why would I get indignant. I have no problem recognizing maybe when I'm wrong and when a product of my paranoia is me and not someone else. This is not something new and is exhibited through several games.
And what would you have done as scum, honestly? Do you really think you would have just had no interaction with me whatsoever given that you'd know that would be exactly the kind of thing I'm expecting? I know you think your scum game is the worst ever but it's seriously not even close to this catatonic. The reason why I picked Bert for you to wax on about was precisely because he was someone you hadn't interacted much with in the past yet still exhibited a lot of behaviors that you would read as town. In a way, I guess I wanted to take you out of your element and see how you'd react.In post 398, Tammy wrote:And you're suggesting there's the possibility that I would interact with you this way if I were scum? That I would have started the game interacting with you the way I did if I were scum?
I understand this now and your recent posting especially makes me feel a lot better about you. Like, a lot a lot a lot. Hopefully, you feel the same way so we can just move on to phase 2.In post 401, Tammy wrote:He either understands that we're nervous about each other or he understands that we're both being ridiculous because if we are both town that should be obvious to each other.-
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Ok so here are the reads I've gathered up to this point. A lot of it feels like rough guesswork right now but I hope to get a better feel for the game as it goes on. I know this thing is very long, but please take the time to read it all.
Nacho'sposting in this game really feels like a far cry from games like F11 or Yoloville where he was completely cold/detached/uninterested and just went through the motions asking questions and focusing on irrelevant stuff to look busy. His entrance into the game from #16-#27 focusing on pressuring me and making me feel uncomfortable to try and get a read on me really reminds me of the approach he took with Syryana in Open 501 as town and I really like the way he moved onto Marangal right after that starting at #78 and moving onto Tammy in posts like #158, reads like he's trying to sort out players he knows well in ways that will be effective and I think he'd just generally take a far more subdued approach as scum. I need to double check the meta on this, but I think Nacho's not as inclined to make detailed town-cases such as #182 and #183, from what I know of scum-Nacho he doesn't like to limit himself by giving out an abundance of townreads like he seems to have in this game as it would limit his options for who to push. The reach out to Generic to "give him something to work with" reads extremely genuine and I just don't really imagine him saying that as scum at all. He's not pushing other Nachoscum triggers like defending weaker players for the sake of it or being lazy with his reasoning or pushing forward contrived reasoning. And finally, I really like the fact that he's actually going through the effort to look up Generic/Marangal's off-site meta -- scum usually don't like to put in huge amounts of effort into looking at other people's meta, much less off-site meta. All in all, I feel pretty good about Nacho being town and would be pretty surprised if he turned out to be scum.
I know I've written a lot aboutTammyand my paranoia of her and whatnot, but her recent posting pretty much has me feeling way better about her slot -- she's nowhere near this explosive or cocky about her own townieness as scum. Her entrance into the game w.r.t. trying to get a read on me early and playing up how excited she was to be town is genuine given that she's been scum a lot this year both here and off-site (Tammy, since I know you'll be reading this, I just want to let you know that part of me still thinks you would have tried to interact with me in some way =P ). I also liked her bringing up Red Wedding as a meta reference point by saying that she knows the value of taking a stance as scum and that she hates being a part of fights like that when she's town. I know she's been a part of in thread drama in the past and she's aware of the debilitating effects it can have on the town so choosing to try and stop the fight rather than egg it on is a stance that she's more likely to take as town.
TheGarantula's coming across like solid noobtown to me. I really liked #32, immediately spotting something weird in Nacho's play due to experience with him is something I think newer players are far more likely to do as town. I like how takes a bit of an against-the-grain stance in #129 in the Generic/Marangal back-and-forth by townreading Generic/scumreading Marangal yet still made the effort to try and see what everyone else was seeing, as I find newer scum players often try to take the path of least resistance when it comes to major in thread issues. I like him coming forward admitting that he has no solid reads yet in #315 as scum (especially newer scum) tend to try and fake more definitive stances because that's usually seen as the more stereotypically pro-town thing to do.
Bert'splay looks like it's still developing but what he's been posting so far looks really solid. Like I mentioned earlier, his comment in #240 about how he doesn't think he could lead on Tammy successfully reads super genuine, it's exactly the way I think a lot of more new players feel when they play interact with more experienced players but don't really like to admit (and hell, even I still feel that way about some players). His play surrounding Tammy and his paranoia of her rooted in Open 501 also reads genuine. A lot of his play revolves around feeling out people and trying to relate to them especially by linking their feelings with his own, which is an approach I think is far more likely to come from town as scum don't put emphasis on relate-ability/empathy as that's hard to fake.
Genericis weird. While I didn't like his early posting at all in that it felt like shallow scumhunting and it seemed like he was more interested in trying to make Marangal look bad than discern her alignment, I think a large part of my issues were mostly due to site meta differences (though I still have to check this out as a little homework assignment tomorrow morning) and his emotions just seemed to get the better of him. Like I said before, #330 reads super genuine. I know from hearing about him way back that he tends to really take pride in his scum game so him saying that he's too prideful to use cheap tactics like using his personal life as a weapon checks out. This is probably a WIFOM-heavy point, but I think for a guy who really cares about his scum game, he wouldn't play so defensively (?) as scum. Interested in seeing where he goes once he starts getting back into the game with a cooler head (#379 is a decent start).
My thoughts onShadowehare here at the bottom of the post. Not much has changed in that department (except I was very tempted to leave her out of this post because I knew it would troll her).
Not really sure what Nacho/Llamarble are seeing inDesperado, like I mentioned before, I find his posting to be pretty decent so far. I like the way he makes the meta comparison between Generic here and in the Red Wedding at a time and him reaching out to Tammy/Nacho to see if they see what he sees. Trying to get people to work together and form town blocs early is something I don't see him doing as scum, I think he'd try to facilitate the chaos/fan the flames of paranoia. #212 is another solid post, the fact that he actually took the effort to go through the link I provided to compare Shadoweh's play there to his play here makes him more likely town I think. One final WIFOM-y point: the final bit in #378 about seeing which read to talk Tammy out of first feels way too transparent for him as scum.
Nacho summed up a lot of my reasons for readingMarangalas town in his #182 so I don't want to waste even more space regurgitating it but I just want to add one thing that I don't think he mentioned in that post. Marangal's another player whose paranoia of Tammy I find genuine given their history and her reaching out to me and my ability to read her in #51 is something I liked a lot.
PeaceBringer'sprobably my weakest townread here but I think a lot of people's problems with him are playstyle-related and not really alignment-related. Dude just seems old school. In particular, I liked the bit in #142 where he asks Shadoweh why she isn't seeing what he's seeing, that question tends to come a lot more from townies with strong convictions than from scum (who are generally more apathetic about reads as they know those reads are fake). Also, Tammy, since I know you're going to be the only person who ever makes it this far, I don't think 1baldeagle1's replace-out is a scum tell at all; I think the guy was probably too overwhelmed or intimidated by this game.
Llamarble'sposting thus far has been really weak and the bits in #261 and #275 where he's self conscious about his posting being similar to his scum-game felt way out of character given that Llamarble seemed way cockier about his townieness in the other games of his I remember reading (and even in Yoloville when he was being wagoned). However, if there's anything I learned from Yoloville, it can take Llamarble a bit of time to get into the game so I'm willing to take a wait-and-see approach with him.
Purple'sISO is just...super boring. So possible PoE scum candidate but nothing even remotely interesting here.
Gaiden'spretty much the closest thing I have to a scumread here. As Desperado pointed out, #181 just feels like a softball question to ask, and the timing of it was suspicious (when the Generic wagon was gaining steam and when he was at the height of his emotional outburst) and it just reads like the question was presented to paint Generic in a negative light. I could see #188 being genuine but right now it just reads like posturing to me, especially considering he doesn't appear to have a read on Generic.
That's about everything I have right now. It took a long ass time to write all this so I'm going to bed soon and will work on the Generic meta thing as soon as I wake up (please let me know what's up with the other site meta, Nacho, I'll register and read when I have time).-
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I'm alive!
Unfortunately, I've been really really sick and I spent almost all of yesterday in bed. Sorry for sucking thus far, I'm trying to keep my head in the game.
Erm, what do you want me to say? I think your case is wrong and it focuses on things-that-look-bad-but-aren't-really rather than things that are actually scummy. For example, I don't see his stuff as IIoA noise as he's not really focusing on information dump but drawing conclusions from them (even in the post you tried to link, he's explainingIn post 414, Shadoweh wrote:Tammy, Empire, I know you're busy fighting but you both have a town read on Bert, could you please acknowledge my case and/or deny it, I don't think what he's posted is 'solid' and PB is an easy target from the way people have been beating on his style. I also note he's taken back any bad thoughts about Empire because Empire writes like a king. I'd rather try to lynch a weirdo over wallposts anyday. Nacho already gave his opinion, but I think when people hang out too much they can get caught up in meta tells instead of plain mafia reading.whyhe finds some things suspicious, not just saying that they are). And about the trajectory of Bert's read on Tammy, dude's been paranoid/suspicious of her since coming into the game so I don't think his shifting read on her has anything to do with Tammy being unsure on him.
Uh dude, I'm not really seeing anything there, I think him "lying" about it is just more likely to be a "Shoe-being-a-quirky-alt" thing rather than a "Shoe-being-scummy" thing. I mean, if he knows that you know his identity (as #355 seems to suggest), why would he deliberately lie about it?In post 465, Nachomamma8 wrote:What do you think about him lying about if he's played with me before or not?
As much as I love being called a pro, I'm far from it. The bottom line is that I hate being scum, probably more than anyone else on the site and I'm actually really bad at it. I think you're town so I'm asking you to just trust me here. I know this is probably the wrong thing to say but I don't really know what else to say, frankly. I'm starting to feel a lot better about my handle on this game and so hopefully Tammy and I can move onto phase 2 soon whenever she realizes I'm town.In post 476, Bert wrote:and they are so eloquent and detailed and rhetorical yada-yada-yada. I want them both outta here, they are making me really paranoid. They can talk us new-ish players outta anything, and it's like going against freakin pros.
Agree that #508 from Llamarble is good stuff and I'm excited to see more.
@Generic/Marangal:Really want to see you pull away from this back-and-forth with and see you work a bit more elsewhere. As far as I can tell, you guys are still arguing about the same stuff you were arguing about on like page 2 or 3. Far be it for me to pull a Tammy (this is what you've turned me into), but it's gotten to the point where this has become entirely unproductive.-
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(You forgot Desperado. What are your thoughts on him?)In post 550, Tammy wrote:As far as my actual reads:
empire, bert, nacho, mara, generic, garantula and maybe llamarble and shadoweh are town.
gaiden is mhrmhmrh and lynchable. his replace out is null.
besides that are the peacebringer, purple shoe.
I would most like to lynch peace bringer if i were to change my vote at this time or purple shoe just because i cant' remember a damn thing he did and he's not in my town list.-
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Yeah this is kind of we're I'm at too (though Desperado still looks kinda town to me) and I think I need to give this game another reread. Right now, I've been mostly focusing on {Gaiden, Shoe} as they're the only ones who don't really look town to me at all. It's irritating because they also happen to be the least contentful players in this game and part of me thinks the game can't be this easy.In post 557, Tammy wrote:I feel like I have too many town reads and somethings wrong somewhere.
Hopefully, the replacements helps shed some light on that Gaiden's alignment.
I should probably go make myself some waffles.-
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Here's the thing: Shadoweh read everyone in our QT as town based on our pre-game posting. If you're scum and you're in a Neighborhood, wouldn't you want to sow some of the paranoia about how "there must be scum in the neighborhood"? It's a great way to subtly cut off open communication in the QT.In post 665, Tammy wrote:That also explains why you read shadoweh from very little. But it makes me wonder about shadoweh, if you were active and protown then I don't get some of her behavior.-
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Wait wait wait.
I just realized there's something else about kuribo's claim I need to think about and that might make him town.
Also, Llamarble, I just skimmed the endgame of Cookie Thief and there's no mention of how alignments in the Neighborhood were distributed (for everyone, it was a 3 person neighborhood, the two townies were a collective roleblocker while the scum was just a scum neighbor).-
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We already know that the 4 person Neighborhood is comprised of members of the Wingate family while the 3 person Neighborhood is comprised of Guests so I don't think that's necessary in the thread right now. If the Neighborhoods want to do their own thing in the QT, though, then it's fine.In post 685, Generic wrote:Is a mass character claim worthwhile at this stage to see how the neighbourhoods are set up?
I just woke up and was hoping kuribo was going to have something to say about my #679 but I guess not =/-
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*sigh*In post 705, TheGarantula wrote:Why are you trying to be so secretive about the message here?
Because the message was intended for kuribo only. I figured he would get the hint and we would both talk about it in our Neighborhoods. Some things really do NOT need to be talked about openly.
Anyway, since it's now out in the open, my role PM talks about Albert extensively and I've been wondering whether this means anything re: kuribo's alignment. Thoughts?-
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People tend to not really pick up crumbs like that unless it directly pertains with them (see: Johhog softclaiming his PR hard in Yoloville and something like half the town not picking it up). And I wanted to see if kuribo would bring it up in the QT with Tammy and Llamarble and how.In post 713, TheGarantula wrote:How did you not expect other people to figure it out? Why would it be better to discuss in the quick topics than in the main thread? If there's scum in the QTs they can coordinate what they say about the information. They can't do that during the day. (I assume they don't have day talk)
I'm not saying I trust him. I'm trying to figure out if IIn post 714, TheGarantula wrote:Also, why are you so trusting of kuriboh already?shouldtrust him given the information I have.-
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I'm on my phone right now but Garantula, I had to make the crumb obvious in the thread because kuribo wasn't understanding what I was trying to hint at.
And if he didn't discuss it in his QT it of course would have made him more suspicious in my eyes considering his Neighborhood has Tammy in it and they've interacted in a Neighborhood before. Given that I have a strong townread on Tammy, I'd expect her to accurately recount the contents of their discussion.-
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I'm still catching up (on my phone, will finish later tonight) but just wanted to say one thing: Tammy, the flavor in my role PM doesn't tell me that Albert is town, it's just that there's a lot of it about how he's a friend who listens to my character's bullshit stories about travelling and about how I invited him to this Mansion. In fact, there's probably more about him than there is about my character, though I'd have to re-check my role PM when I get back home. There just seems to be a heavy implication that the role is town.-
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Ok, I'm in the middle of my catch-up (and also a little buzzed) but this post shocked me in its sheer badness that I pretty much feel obligated to respond right now.
Literally, none of these scenarios make a lick of sense:In post 864, TheGarantula wrote:I'm still trying to understand what the supposed harm in my outing of Empire's role flavor was. Not only was it obvious, but it would be inconsequential unless you were purposefully trying to insinuate that it is related to his abilities or alignment. If that's the case, why would you making a big deal out of it be any better?
If we entertain the idea that you are both scum, then perhaps the exchange could have been to allow Empire to claim a role indirectly, so as not to raise suspicions. Then, he could reference it later as evidence (a la the usual breadcrumb).
If only one of you is scum, then the exchange would have served as public buddying. In the case that either of you flipped, it might have implied the same alignment of the other, especially if this sort of behavior continued.
I guess I just can't get over the idea that the breadcrumb was meant to be picked up by someone other than kuribo. Perhaps it wasn't meant for town to notice, but was instead an attempt by Empire to communicate with his partners indirectly? This doesn't seem as likely, but I guess it's still possible.
In essence,FOS: Both of you. I see more scum motivation behind it than town motivation (which I see little of).
1) Even if you think of main motivation behind said breadcrumb was to crumb my role (which is not onlynotwhat my primary intention was but not even close to what I actually did considering breadcrumbing flavor =/= breadcrumbing role), scum are obviously not the only ones who have motivation to do so. There are plenty of reasons why town would breadcrumb, including *gasp* dropping hints to figure out the alignment of another player.
2) You are basically suggesting that I acted in concert with a replacement (e.g., a guy who would not have the benefit of pre-game talk and I'm assuming there's no daytalk here given the Neighborhoods don't have it either) to contrive a breadcrumb for the sole purpose of making us both look town. To do this, we would needed to have planned this out and have discussed it considering the idea is pretty contrived and complicated, especially when you consider that kuribo claimed his role way before I hinted at mine. Given that it's pretty much close to a certainty that scum don't have daytalk, you're seriously expecting kuribo and I to have pulled this off with absolutely no discussion/coordination whatsoever? Do you see how absurd this is yet?
3) What the hell would be the point of buddying someone like kuribo (who is pretty obviously not susceptible to it) in such a contrived manner when there's much easier/straightforward ways of doing it or I could just simply get rid of kuribo with a nightkill?
4) If I were scum, why the hell would I need to communicate something that my partners would already know (my claim + flavor)?
So you're basically faced with either I contrived something ridiculous in an attempt to make myself look town or the much simpler explanation that maybe, just maaaaaaaaybe, I crumbed my role because I wanted to gauge the alignment of another player.-
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Shadoweh doesn't really strike me as the kind who would take that path though.In post 934, Ms Marangal wrote:I understand why Empire is reading Shadoweh as town, though I don't really agree with him. I think that it's very possible for her to wanting to "work with us" so that, she could gain some inside knowledge and manipulate us for the duration of the game.
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@Bert:
1) Read the wiki section you quoted again. "Multiple Neighborhoods -> higher odds that at least one of them has a scum Neighbor" =/= "multiple Neighborhoods -> "higher odds thateachof them has a scum Neighbor.
2) Erm, by suggesting that the suspect pool should be {Shadoweh/Llamarble/Tammy/myself} you're basically saying that the entire scum team are Neighbors (assuming the standard 10:3)...that's pretty much impossible (also, Tammy and myself are both town, take that to the bank).
@Nacho:What's your updated read on the Shoe? I'm honestly getting cold feet on lynching that slot knowing that it's Muttley because I remember him being really useless in Open 501 and some other game where he was town (need to look it up). I don't really feel a Desperado wagon either. I don't know, I just feel like I have a severe case of the bads in this game where everyone looks town (I've become literally Tammy circa Day 3/4). I'm at the point where I just have a list of people I pretty much never plan on voting (you, Tammy, Marangal, PB, Garantula, and maybe Bert) but everyone else looks like town to me in some form or another.-
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Still fighting the Great Battle Against Insomnia (and still losing), but I managed enough mental capacity to be able to post stuff. Really disappointed we didn't get a deadline extension but there's nothing we can do, so whatever.
I just don't see what you or Llamarble see, I really don't. I even reread Desperado's ISO just now and the only case against him I can see is "he doesn't look as town as most of the other people in this game".In post 987, Nachomamma8 wrote:but this I don't understand so much. desperado can look town if you look at him sideways and squinty-eyed, but otherwise he's pretty much just scum. and if he's not and llamarble isn't doing amazing things by tomorrow, we can probably kill the fuck out of him without a tear lost anywhere.
(Realtalk, I'd never gossip about that stuff, what Garantula did was way out of line.)In post 1023, Tammy wrote:What did you think about kuribo's rage in this game and the replace out. In that I'm wondering if you think it's alignment indicative, not asking to gossip :p
Anyway, some thoughts I jotted down about kuribo while rereading him in ISO and considering your question:
1) The rage regarding kuribo's personal life is not alignment indicative since it has nothing to do with this game, and thus, he'd be pissed regardless (I would be too).
2) The replace out could be town as town tend to usually be the ones who feel the need to jot down their final thoughts in a last ditch attempt to help the town. However, thinking about it, I've seen this from scum enough to the point where I don't consider that tell completely reliable.
3) The self meta in #868 could actually be a thing. Kuribo's a really paranoid guy, so I can imagine him always claiming a visiting role as scum due to the fear that he'll be tracked/watched/etc. I haven't gone out and checked how he interacts with his scum partners but he vaguely seems like the guy who would turbo bus his whole team at the drop of a hat.
I like his recent posting but he hasn't broken the threshold of "wow, Llamarble really feels like town in this game." Not really interested in voting him today, though. I remember CES saying in some other game (Abarat?) that Llamarble's a suboptimal Day 1 lynch in that he can take a bit of time to get going and he can get a lot more readable with time.In post 1028, Tammy wrote:Empire/nacho what are your updated reads on marble?
Also, I really don't want to lynch the qwints slot.
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@Marangal:You said in #934 that you think there's two scum outside the Neighborhoods and one scum within them. Why do you want to lynch in the Neighborhoods when the odds of hitting scum outside of it are higher (2 in 6 vs. 1 in 7)?-
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Well, what do you think about the fact that his replace out post had him as town despite his earlier push? Do you think that read shift was more borne out of convenience/opportunism? My gut says no precisely because he replaced out (but see: "Scum Replace Outs and You").In post 1040, Tammy wrote:But, what I was trying to figure out with him was the rage at the purple shoe and before. I went back and read the comments after fortnight where oversoul said he was able to figure out the rage was fake, but I still couldn't decide. I do remember in The Wire how he did fake rage to push for reactions, so I suppose that could have been going on here, but it did seem kinda over the top with the shoe.
The main reason I have him filed away right now is because of his claim and I'm still thinking about it + what my flavor means. The "I never fakeclaim VT as scum" thing is a bonus but I wouldn't really put anything past kuribo either given the crazy shit he's done in the past.
I vaguely remember the thread you're talking about and I might go mine for it later when I'm not a borderline zombie.-
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I don't know, I could see him doing the whole rage thing as either alignment and I can't really read into his tone for some reason. The fact that he shifted his read on Shoe makes me think he was just trying to get a rise out of him to force content and that might make him more likely town though?In post 1042, Tammy wrote:What I was mostly interested in was your take on the rage. It was something I was going to ask you about anyway as it didn't feel like the rage he had with benmage upon replacing into The Wire. And my first knee jerk reaction was the he was scum trying to mimic his rage, but then I remembered him asking in the neighborhood who he should fake rage at to try to provoke some reactions when we were all waffling about who the last scum were. So, I know he's perfectly capable at faking it for funsies to shake some trees.
He was just emphasizing that he was confused by the Neighborhood and how he had only recently started playing here and was asking us what that was all about. It's probably a stretch but I think as scum he would have just not posted or not have been trying to figure stuff out.In post 1042, Tammy wrote:Why did baldeagle come off as confused newbtown and not confused newbscum?-
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That's the thing: I've been looking for a better idea and I've got nothing. The closest thing I have to an alternative is Shoe but that explosion of stand-offish posting earlier when he was being wagoned makes me think he's probably town. I might just end up plopping a vote down on Desperado due to the fact that so many people look more town than him (and you do make a point about his reaction to the wagon) but I'd feel icky about it.In post 1050, Shadoweh wrote:To be fair most of the other people in the game are pretty damn town. If you look at the reactions to the wagons too, kuribo came in and raged all over the place, Shoe got into an argument with kuribo himself, Generic and Mara have literally been fighting since page 1, and Desperado is kind of.. there? There's not alot of fighting back going on here, it's like he's already given up. He's also only addressing the two main people who want him dead in his one post since he became a wagon.
Also, do you have a better idea? If you say me I'll punch you in the throat.-
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I will try my best, shit just isn't easy in this game.In post 1094, Nachomamma8 wrote:keep the faith-
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Oh, I didn't think about the SK thing, I just assumed he was mafia due to the red flip. *shrug*
Anyway, the logic behind the fakeclaim thing was that Desperado fakeclaimed a member of the Wingate family. All the members of the family are supposed to have access to the QT, so Desperado basically confirmed himself as not-town when he claimed because he wasn't in our QT (hence why Marangal hammered). If one of us in the QT were scum, fakeclaims would have been discussed and he would have been told that his fakeclaim was impossible.