Mini 1717 Alfred Hitchcock UPick [GAME OVER]

[Thor665]

Vote: Davsto

Also, slight town read and slight silly read on Cataphant.

[Thor665]

Vote: Davsto

Also, slight town read and slight silly read on Cataphant.

slight town read on cataphant?

Yes, I have a slight town read on him.

Why, do you have a scumread on him and are annoyed that someone is getting the opposite read?
I don't get your issue, and you're not really asking a question here, so...?

[Thor665]

Your wording wasn't very clear. I wasn't sure if you missed a word or if you were saying two things about one person.

I was saying two things about one person - I also am unsure how saying "I have a slight town read on - X" is unclear. I'll be doing a lot of reads in that basic format in the future; as a warning.

I was actually more curious about the speed of the read itself. Do you normally post reads like that right away at the beginning of a game?

Sure, it's pretty normal for me.

Furthermore... I sense a strange aggression in this post. Why?

Because I was attacking you for questioning a townread - I find that to be potentially scummy and was trying to get a read off of you as regards that immediate reaction.

Why - do you have an issue with aggression? Does it upset you or make you feel uneasy?

Curious as to the number of votes on me being 4.

I would be more curious if the number of votes on you was 3 or 5 - 4 people and 4 votes seems pretty normal.
Why is it curious? I'm curious

[Thor665]

everyone plz take a moment to familiarize yourselves with , Post 1, and Post 2. they have some important stuff.

Sure - if you tell me who was missing any of that stuff

[Thor665]

I'd expect a more varied spread of votes in RVS.

I would too, but only if we're bad players.

Especially interesting is that two of said votes are re-votes, and one of them is sheeping. Is sheeping an RVS vote a thing?

It must be a thing because it just happened.

So you find the re-votes and the sheep vote on you potentially scummy, and me the towniest vote on you?

@Thor: I found the aggression odd considering my post was pretty obviously a clarification and not a questioning of the read itself.

I disagree with your value call on what your comment looked like.
And what is "odd" in having aggression? Lots of Mafia players have high levels of real or faked aggression - I would thinkt hat would be very normal to see and, indeed, expected - no?

It seemed over the top. I wanted to know if there was a personal reason for it or something else.

Nope, thread related.
It's a hydra of Bella and hiplop that didn't even claim which head had posted (though my guess would be hiplop) - I am not claiming deep meta insight into either of them and it would be weird of me to be able to extract a meta tell from that.
For the record I will never claim deep meta insight into anyone.

[Thor665]

But you still find Cataphant scummier than her?

[Thor665]

Eh, I'm fine with this speed wagon as currently exists.

[Thor665]

You have a townread on someone who has made only 7 posts? Elaborate.

Don't you have a scumlean on someone who also has 7 posts (and had less when you stated scum lean)?
Also, I've stated a town lean on a player with one post.

[Thor665]

Explain your townread then, Thor, thanks.

I will if people start scum reading him - otherwise I don't get the point. It's not a conventional tell that people will likely buy into, so it's not like I would move him to town reads for many, so barring defense of him I don't see any reason to bother.

[Thor665]

Of course aggression is to be expected. Yours was out of place in my opinion.

Why?

I actually like his responses to Sakura at the moment.

In contrast, I don't like Sakura.

Said while...voting Davsto and not voting Hecatia.

I'm okay with lynching Concrete now too.

[Thor665]

Because it seemed out of place. You can only go so basic in an explanation, Thor. It was inappropriate for the situation. It wasn't what I expected.

You asked me to clarify if I town read someone after I stated I town read them.
Then you get miffed that I'm asking you to explain something that can't be made any simplier.
But if *I* got miffed at you it was scummy.

Hypocrisy?
This feels like hypocrisy.
How is it not?

I didn't even realize we were voting him. MS made that vote and I just got to the thread in the last couple hours.

Okay.

I mean, are you trying to sort me or find a reason to lynch me?

Same difference, really.

[Thor665]

You asked me to clarify if I town read someone after I stated I town read them.
Then you get miffed that I'm asking you to explain something that can't be made any simplier.
But if *I* got miffed at you it was scummy.

Hypocrisy?
This feels like hypocrisy.
How is it not?

Leaning town with dav.
Thor what is your issue about dav?

Lack of scumhunting and voting someone I thought was town - though not in that order.

Why do you lean town on him?

[Thor665]

Considering he asked you why you think they are town, have you considered that maybe he doesn't think they're town?

That has no bearing in any way, shape, or form to my read.
Of course he either does, or will claim, to not town read them - it doesn't matter.

I see someone trying to understand your point and I see his frustrations about your town read. I can see why he thought it was quick and questionable.

You do?
The only reason he tried to understand me was I pointed out that he was unevenly applying an issue to Sakura and not to me or himself. It was only then that he seemed to give a hang for understanding me, and I don't really get frustration from him either.

I can agree it could be read a squick and questionable - would have felt better if that had been his first read though...also, not really buying into caring about a quick and questionable town read on Day 1.

Can you back up this thought of yours?
It feels very weak.

What do you think of haca following you?

That it is in line with my general expectations of her - does it seem out of line for her play in your opinion?

I am townreading Thor.

Why?
Your only reason to seems to be based off a scum read of Sakura.

[Thor665]

Why?
Your only reason to seems to be based off a scum read of Sakura.

Nope. I like your questioning of me.

[Thor665]

The semantics don't even make sense, the sentence works fine as constructed and has no hints of unfinished thoughts.

[Thor665]

Like, if you took out the 'although' it would be saying the opposite of what Sakura is saying, and also be weirdly put together.

[Thor665]

Actually, maybe I'm wrong - the double double negative is actually kind of confusing.

@Sakura - what the hell were you saying int hat sentence?

[Thor665]

Unvote: Davsto
Vote: Hecatia Lapislazuli

[Thor665]

Meh, actually I think the timeline makes sense. Still not fond of how she distances Davsto's question afterwards considering she does say she changed her mind and that's what he was swinging at her for, but, meh.

Unvote: Hecatia Lapislazuli
Vote: Davsto

[Thor665]

Hi Thor.

[Thor665]

I will if people start scum reading him - otherwise I don't get the point. It's not a conventional tell that people will likely buy into, so it's not like I would move him to town reads for many, so barring defense of him I don't see any reason to bother.

[Thor665]

Have you ever played with hiplop?
If yes - how do you define this as different from his norm.
If no - go do a light meta skim and get back to me with your stated issue with him.

[Thor665]

I played with him in Disney. He dicked around but that was after farside called him conftown when he really wasn't and even then this feels much more over the top than there.

How so?

[Thor665]

What do you mean, "distances Davsto's questions"?

Functionally she just admitted that she changed her opinion partway through the answer.
Davsto accused her of changing her read partway through the answer.
She called that a stretch.

But...it sounds like her reply should have been, 'yes, I did - but...'
Instead she just batted it down and walked away quickly.
Reads funny.

[Thor665]

I know you said you don't see the point in explaining your town read on Cat. I also get that it may be unconventional. However, I do feel that enough people have asked and enough people are interested - myself included - that you should just tell us. It would help me understand you better, give me insight into what you are thinking, and that would help me to read you better. Is that not a good enough reason to share your thoughts?

People say stuff like this, and then do nothing with the info.
Tell you what though - get two additional people to say they'll "get a read off Thor" if i reveal the info and then I'll do so immediately.
I expect to then be massively underwhelmed and mostly get to listen to people noting that it is a shallow/thin read.

Aaaand...... you've been consistently posting elsewhere.

So... yeah. I'm very happy with my vote now.

This is true.

Unvote: Davsto
Vote: Vedith

[Thor665]

[Thor665]

I don't agree that davsto is scum

[Thor665]

Thor, I'd like you to explain the Cataphant townread. That was my one hangup about you and I'd like it cleared up.

How is not explaining a soft townred (with reasons given why I'm not) from RVS a "hangup" about me?

For the rest who say that this is a valid argument, explain how and explain your scum read further.

Ooooh, he calls me out, not by name, but in a general call out.
That's good, I have a collection of gauntlets.

Let's talk;

First off your Saturday/Friday thing is silly - people's date/times are set by them, not other posters. So, probably for however he had the board configured you had posted on Friday. For me, you posted Saturday - but at 4:30am Saturday. I bet that's not what your post indicates - and it doesn't matter.

Second off, his lurking call on you is perfectly valid - when he called you out on it I went and pulled up your post iso and scrolled back through *4 pages* of posts found in other threads than this one. If you were only doing 1-3 in friend's threads, then you have a lot of friends' threads to post in and probably need to replace out of this game to fulfill that massive time obligation elsewhere.

Also, by my accounting, you *did* show aggressive activity elsewhere and not here, so a call that you are lurking in this thread is provable, and, consequently, vote worthy if I find that suspect.
And I do.

If you would like to use your next post or two here inbetween dozens and dozens of posts elsewhere to offer a few reads and look generically towny maybe I'll unvote you.
If you would like to justify why you're ducking this thread compared to others maybe I'll unvote you.
If you would like to explain why this case is unfounded, maybe I'll unvote you.

But as currently stands I want to speed lynch you, and think more people should vote you now, as all you're doing is slappy defense and not scumhunting.

Spoiler: reference for the really unclear responses

I see someone trying to understand your point and I see his frustrations about your town read. I can see why he thought it was quick and questionable.

You do?
The only reason he tried to understand me was I pointed out that he was unevenly applying an issue to Sakura and not to me or himself. It was only then that he seemed to give a hang for understanding me, and I don't really get frustration from him either.

I can agree it could be read a squick and questionable - would have felt better if that had been his first read though...also, not really buying into caring about a quick and questionable town read on Day 1.

Can you back up this thought of yours?
It feels very weak.

What do you think of haca following you?

That it is in line with my general expectations of her - does it seem out of line for her play in your opinion?

Most people find my reason's weak. You won't be the first and sure as Smurf won't be the last.

I will take that as a "no - I cannot back up a read of seeing logic in someone applying reads hypocritically or blindly".

Why were you town reading a spot on page one?

Why not?

Can you say they were strong?

No.
But I apply my tells equally to all players with only adjustments being made based off playstyle rather than going "oh, wait, *you* did that too, and so did I? Well...um...huzzah!".
So, no, I see no connection.

I just do what I feel when I read things, maybe I should stop that but I see scum stubble more when pushed then town.

I presume "stubble" means, not facial hair but is in reference to Hepasoihroaij's sheeping?
I really don't follow this answer even with that concept in my head.
If it's about Concrete Angel - then...is it "stumble" Eh, this makes a bit more sense, are you suggesting sloppy play is more common from...town, even though you look to be saying the opposite, though I happily admit to being lost as to this sentence - clarify?

Also - could you address my question to you about Hepasljdaso's playstyle? You seem to have dropped that, unless the last line is about it.

[Thor665]

I am not often in love with vote count fluff and pics.
This game is one of the few exceptions.

[Thor665]

The quotes below is what I was referring to.
He is trying to explain and ask and thor doesn't respond other then to perry a point against Dav elaborates the reason.
Do I find the reason weak.
Yes.
Is it scummy
No

I'm feeling lost here - allow me to phrase the situation as I understand it, then if you could do the same that would be swell;

Dav attacked hecatia for reading a slot that only had 7 posts in the thread.
At the point Dav did this (reading Sakura) she had 7 posts.
Thor had presented a read on a slot with 1 posts and Dav had not called me out on that.
Probably other people had presented early reads as well.
Thor considers this an unfair/scummy method because it suggests he is using a fake point to attack Hecatia over - Thor calls him out on it.
Dav responds with "I thought I understood your reason, now I see I don't, so, oh, can you explain that read too" suggesting that now him understanding is part of what justifies a legit read in x posts and not what x equals - which means, what the heck was the point of mentioning 7 posts in regards to Hecatia's read as opposed to simply saying "I don't understand your read, that's scummy" or words to that effect.
Whether or not I explained my read to him is immeterial to the discussion about what he did and whether it can be read as scummy or not.
I read it as scummy.

What are you saying?

---

How is not explaining a soft townred (with reasons given why I'm not) from RVS a "hangup" about me?

That's not a response to my question. Deflecting my questions with one of yours is a pretty great way to ensure you don't get a response. You can ask one of your own after answering mine. To be clear, I'll rephrase: what about Cataphant's first post read town to you? If you answered and I missed it, link it for me.

I've actually alreaady answered this question about 3 times in the thread already - sure, my answer is "I'm not going to answer that" but to then complain that I'm "dodging" sounds kind of silly - you know what my answer is going to be. Even if we go with my "get three people who say they can get a read off me for it" challenge and count you amongst them - that's still only 2 people, and, thus, still not a high enough number for me to bother answering, so, again, no dodge.

Now that we have established that I did answer the question, whether or not you like the answer, I would like you to answer my question and not...wait for it...dodge it like you just did Thanks.

While I'm thinking I somewhat wonder if we should claim characters. I have a theory and I wonder if I'm out guessing the mod or not.

Dare I ask why you have a rolename theory based off Day 1 prior to any flips? Or would that possible reveal too much again?
Honestly I suspect rolenames are relatively meaningless - I'd almost be more amused to get people to reveal them, but only if they revealed their submitted lists also.
But, really, it's just because I'm a fanboy and want to judge people on their choices.

[Thor665]

Yes.

So?

[Thor665]

Well, Thor's post to me doesn't make sense.

Which part is confusing to you - it seems fairly straightforward,
I called you a lurker and offered support of that opinion, and noted that I found it scummy.

[Thor665]

So you understood it - you just disagree with it?

[Thor665]

In seeking to grok if reasons make sense you need to understand what the other person means and thinks - which does bounce it back into semantics.

That said, this does seem like a conversation topic ripe to sidewind into game theory as opposed to scumhunting.

@Massive - why do you think the semantic defense angle is hogwash and suggests scum dodging? And, if you don't, why the swipe at Hecatia?

@Hecatia - why do you think the raised issue against you qualifies as simply semantics as opposed to a legit issue with your play on a scum/town scale?

[Thor665]

can we acknowledge how massive is nitpicking words like thats supposedly a scumtell? ya have to be smoking something to think thats in any way town.

I am not really on board with reading what he's doing as nitpicking - I see some validity in that as a concept that he could legit believe suggests scum.

Because their issue is about the way i worded things (i.e. the "increased suspicion"

Agreed, his case *is* about a word choice.
The question is - is the case empty *because* it is about word choice? If the answer is 'no' then it is not semantics.
I think his expressed logic makes sense, I am not sure I agree with him - but I am also not thinking it's a clear scum minded push.
Why are you?
And if you're not - why not just address the case and not try to hand wave it?

and notty has been mostly absent and he's much easier to read so im here facing off alone against people.

Welcome to why I rarely hydra.

[Thor665]

@Massive - why do you think the semantic defense angle is hogwash and suggests scum dodging? And, if you don't, why the swipe at Hecatia?

Well, for one, I don't think this is semantics, and I've already said so, or at least inferred it in 212. So if what you're asking is "is her defense hogwash", then yes, it's hogwash. I think it's easy for people to slip by and say "Oh, that's clearly not what I meant" but be unable to explain WHY something is being misunderstood or, especially in this case, deflect off to either their other hydra head or to the excuse of being a non-native English speaker.

Sakura said Davsto was a scumread. She said you are a townread. She cannot explain how her actions show this without resorting to examples from AFTER she started acting on these beliefs. That's not word selection. When pressed, the game became hard and she needed a break so her hydra partner could back her up.

This would have been easy to walk past. Sakura says "I like joining RVS wagons. I had no read on either Davsto or Thor." Done. Instead, she laid out all this BS about having scumreads and townreads based on one or two posts and backtracked when called on it. It's not semantics. It's scumantics (tm).

I think massive was going for a case on subtleties, but this looks like scum nitpicking to look like he's making a case.

I get the opposite reaction - it made me townread him.

[Thor665]

we also reread your iso a few times

What insights were gained?

[Thor665]

I'd like to see Bulge lob out a vote, and for LC and Wings to get on a larger wagon or start hard pushing their vanities.

[Thor665]

we also reread your iso a few times

What insights were gained?

I am still waiting for an actual reply to this question.
Is there ever going to be one - or should I stop asking?

[Thor665]

we also reread your iso a few times

What insights were gained?

I am still waiting for an actual reply to this question.
Is there ever going to be one - or should I stop asking?

I missed it, but was that directed to both of us or were you interested in MS's thoughts specifically?

The only thing I personally gained from rereading was that I'm going back and forth on you. I currently have you in "prob town" category. I think your probing is good, and you have appropriate follow-up questions. You've littered a few conclusions here and there as well, which is satisfactory for the time being. There are little things that bother me, some things paranoia-based, and just a general lack of confidence in my ability to read you correctly. The other thing is also more peripheral than something you've done yourself, which is the fact that I feel like I had too many townreads in the beginning, which leads me to think that at least one or maybe two of the scum team members are quite skilled at looking town. So, combined you land in the "likely town but I don't feel good enough about it to put him to the side just yet" area.

That's very sexy and flattering and all.

But Vedith was the one you guys had said you re-read.
Wasn't even aware that you were re-reading me.

[Thor665]

MS came to the conclusion that he was lynchbait.

I presume by this answer that he didn't deign to explain why he thought this?

[Thor665]

I am moving Pistach to a town read.

Dav remains a scum read.
So does Vedith.
Concrete is trying to become one, trying very hard.

[Thor665]

Thor, I'm not getting off my vanity wagon on you. It's too nice and shiny. And I'm too hip to follow all the other kids around. If all of your friends were lynching people, would you just follow along blindly?

If I was voting a wagon that was going nowhere and wasn't pushing it - I'd hope so.
Then again, I try to play pro-town, so there may be a difference in playstyle there.

I have a couple of games with him, mostly ongoing because he replaces in like a Constantine (without the trolling), and from his play in those games I made a value judgement. I conclude that he has a high propensity to be a mislynch target. Thus, I'm setting the sensitivity meter on vedith to low.

What does that have to do with lurking?
Did he lurk a lot in those games you read?
Was he mislynched for being a lurker?

[Thor665]

What does that have to do with lurking?
Did he lurk a lot in those games you read?
Was he mislynched for being a lurker?

Considering the fact that these questions are regarding ongoing games, I'm suggesting that MS not explain those particular reasons any further, and stick to ideas based on this game.

If you have a point or conclusion you are trying to reach with questions about MS' read on Vedith, get to it. Otherwise, it just looks like questions for the sake of questions.

You are well aware of how I scumhunt so this feels pretty pathetic as a raised issue.

Allow me to rephrase the question to a yes/no one with no discussion of ongoing games included;

In MS's opinion - is specific game lurking part of Vedith's town meta?

There, that is a legit question that *can* be answered.

[Thor665]

I'm lost reading thor's post 199

That is an utter Bullsmurf rejoinder - 199 is pretty damn clear and is asking you for your take on the situation.

If it *does* confuse you then ruddy point out where and how and I'll clarify.
And even if it does - it shouldn't prevent you from responding with your own take on what was going down.

This is scummy as HELL so back up, and talk to me, dodge again with a weak wimp reason like the above and I will happily death tunnel you till I secure your lynch.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p7256418

Here's a link to my "confusing" post for everyone else to note.



Yeah...real confusing and crazy worded, psycho babble language in that post...

I have no issue with your questioning; just the path it was going. the rephrasing is fine I think.

whoops. mine.

Nah - you called me out on questioning for the sake of questioning. That's a call on the method, not the path of talking about ongoing games.
You lying to my face?

No [specific game lurking is not part of Vedith's town meta]

Then I am left dumbfounded on your issue with the wagon as it stands, and find your defense of him weak and meaningless to my scum case on him.

Ignoring the fact that I've got a nice shiny wagon for one here and I'm looking forward to keeping the seat warm, who do you want me to vote?

Someone you find scummy, preferably with at least one other person agreeing with you.

I'm already scumhunting elsewhere.

You are?

And besides, there's more than one way to skin a horse.

Yes, the right way and the wrong way.
You and I both know your vote on me is a piddle pile of useless and you're not even backing it up - I'm asking you to defend that chosen course, don't hand me pablum in exchange.

[Thor665]

Thor can you walk me through why you're townreading massive and elaborate on your concrete stance for me?

I find his presented logic on you to follow a mental process that I find cohesive and sensible for what he's done.
Therefore I don't feel like he's faking and is less likely to be scum.

My concrete stance yesterday was town.
Now it leans scum.
Please read this next quote to follow along as to why and toss in a dash of MS' weak answers as regards the Vedith read - feels WKish to me, and I think ETl reaalized it and tried to head it off at the pass.

Nah - you called me out on questioning for the sake of questioning. That's a call on the method, not the path of talking about ongoing games.
You lying to my face?

The wording could maybe have been better, but that was the only thing I had an issue with.

The wording is not at all what you now claim it to mean, so, yes, it probably could have been better.

[Thor665]

I think you should back that up with a vote, Thor. I'm sure there would be plenty of support.

There is plenty of support in a lot of places I am poking, what makes you so special as to deserve a vote?

[Thor665]

Meh.

Read through. Kinda finding it hard to get reads at the moment, sorry. Still liking the Hecatia vote but barely.

I mean, I'm usually pretty mediocre at this but I've usually caught

something

half-decent at this point. Considering a full from-start read through tomorrow because it's Saturday then~

Allow me to tl:dr this post;

~

[Thor665]

And besides, there's more than one way to skin a horse.

Yes, the right way and the wrong way.
You and I both know your vote on me is a piddle pile of useless and you're not even backing it up - I'm asking you to defend that chosen course, don't hand me pablum in exchange.

Useless? That hurts my feeling. I feel it's serving a purpose quite adequately. It strikes me as quite odd that you disagree with my stated plan of action yet seem unwilling to try to sway me to another course.

You could, perhaps, explain why your wagon is better than mine instead of trying to convince me to abandon my ship without another boat in sight. But really, voting you is like a hobby at this point. Its relaxing.

@ca- nah, not the point of what I saw at all. The reason you aren't scum with far is the same reason she might be scum. As far as reads, you're slightly town, but you need to be more town. Far and cat are both possible scum for different, possibly mutually exclusive (although I'll think more on that) reasons.

I haven't bothered reading anyone else yet.

No, that's silly and weak - there are multiple wagon options. I want you to choose the one you like best, or to push the one you are on. As I originally said. I am not trying to browbeat mine at this second, I am trying to get the useless votes to take a stand.

I am amazed that this confuses you and strikes you as odd or weak from me - you have never seen this or done this before? I would call bullhooey on that claim, so where are you coming from?

[Thor665]

Frankly I'm willing to start survivalism voting but there isn't a solid counterwagon and somehow people think thats okay?

Besides Lying Cat who has expressed that idea?

[Thor665]

Far side is still ducking me.

LC's laser post was an ode to crappy play while trying to sound clever about it - and no one seems to have even bothered to read it.

[Thor665]

Okay.

Unvote: Vedith
Vote: Ankamius

[Thor665]

Is he opposing the Hecatia wagon?

[Thor665]

That's a popular wagon?
Or are you saying he opposed it last week or whenever it actually had its initial surge?

[Thor665]

@Lying Cat - good plan, double down on the useless and try to pass it off as strategy.

@Pistach - how has a edits wagon been a thing in the last 72 hours? I don't think it has been a thing since about 24 after it first appeared, and why is this reaction about it only showing up now?

I am fascinated that people thing the least openly explained vote on Ank - and one that existed prior to a wagon rush - is the scum midst somehow. I look forward to this case being explored deeper. You all, clearly, have me dead to rights.

[Thor665]

Hecatia - you are calling a five player voting collection all town with a straight face?

Lying Cat - so, to sum up, I am scummy for dismissing what you're doing while pushing me. This is shown by me not being amused by your attempted dismissal of my raised issue with how you are voting and not offering to push you to vote where I want even though I never indicated that was my goal.

Whut?

[Thor665]

Your case on me is that my Ank vote is the scummiest on the wagon - yes?

[Thor665]

The only other thing I'm aware of is ETL's statement about re-reading me and having paranoia about me.
Is that the rest of the case?

[Thor665]

The only thing I personally gained from rereading was that I'm going back and forth on you. I currently have you in "prob town" category. I think your probing is good, and you have appropriate follow-up questions. You've littered a few conclusions here and there as well, which is satisfactory for the time being. There are little things that bother me, some things paranoia-based, and just a general lack of confidence in my ability to read you correctly. The other thing is also more peripheral than something you've done yourself, which is the fact that I feel like I had too many townreads in the beginning, which leads me to think that at least one or maybe two of the scum team members are quite skilled at looking town. So, combined you land in the "likely town but I don't feel good enough about it to put him to the side just yet" area.

[Thor665]

Okay.

[Thor665]

Your pushes being lackluster and for Smurfy reasons is about as alignment indicative as it gets from you. But what really takes the cake is the hypocrisy. You were yelling at me for voting you and asking other people questions while not actually doing anything about my vote while YOU were voting Ved and asking other people questions while not actually doing anything about your vote.

There is zero hypocrisy from me - I made it very explicitly clear that my issue was single vote wagons - which I was never part of.

So you are either lying and intentionally misleading, or are too dense to understand the difference between a single and multiple vote wagon and why I would have an issue with one moreso than another.

Which is it?

[Thor665]

I'd like to see Bulge lob out a vote, and for LC and Wings to get on a larger wagon or start hard pushing their vanities.

Here is the initial call.
Shock - Thor calls out the two single vote wagons and the non-voter.
Hypocrisy ahoy!

[Thor665]

I'm all for making fun of reads, but, Concrete, methinks you're in a glass house on that one.

[Thor665]

Actually, as long as the two of you are here;

@Ank
@Concrete

React to Lying Cat's hypocrisy issue with me.

because he seems awfully convinced, and I find it utterly laughable, so at least one of us is probably being sketchy in how we're approaching it. Which one is it in your opinion and why?

[Thor665]

@Ank - Well, he accused me of hypocrisy in attacking him for not pushing his wagon while pointing out that I was not pushing my wagon.
He ignored that the only wagons I suggested people needed to be pushing were 1 vote wagons - which was never a situation my vote was in.
So, at that point, where is the hypocrisy he is attacking me over?

You disagree with my defense and find me hypocritical in attacking him like I did?

@Concrete Angels;

1. No, I am not kidding - your current vote is hyper weak and you're well aware of it, so why dog on someone else? ust, generically, wanting to dog on her? If so you're rude, and I miss the point, and if it's about this game who are you to do so?

2. Why not? That is a reasonable request for input into the game. Why avoid it?

[Thor665]

You missed the point of my post buddy. Sakura is notorious for having consistently bad reads, always. For ank to ask her to get better reads is practically asking the impossible. Your response of, "you're in a glass house" means you think the same of me.

And I don't care if it's rude. The truth is not always nice. My point was to tell ank that his efforts would be better spent elsewhere.

Well, if you don't care that it's rude then you don't care.

Not avoiding it, just don't feel like doing it at the moment because I ate a ton of chicken at lunch and I'm feeling lethargic. Also you irritated me with your first post. So you can wait until I feel like it.

So, the answer isn't 'no' but rather 'not just this moment'.
Okay.

Also no, I don't think my current vote is "hyper weak". I feel good about it.

It is presented as paranoia and issue with a vote due to theory of counterwagon push while not voting the primary person that is required to be scum *for* it to be a counterwagon push.
If that's not weak to you, okay, but then I really don't get how Hecatia's positioning qualifies as weak.

The problem is that if you're not going to be pushing your wagons, you don't exactly get leeway in telling other people to start doing it.

I can get behind that - but hypocrisy is a different thing, do you disagree?

you made a big post on Vedith way back when that wagon was a thing

Only because he asked me to support my vote. When people ask me stuff I provide.

You haven't even pushed me at all after you voted me.

Don't need to, you're the biggest wagon.

the fact that you're going to criticize people for just not pushing a wagon they're solo voting on while you're just passively supporting essentially the same thing sans the wagon length is ridiculous.

I disagree both that it is ridiculous and that it is remotely the same thing - can you clarify that belief?

[Thor665]

The interactions with me - she defended me when I would very much have been an easy target for scum to jump on (see: Hecatia) or at least ignore, and in 191 particularly she implored me to actually expand on other things. I find this unlikely to be scum-motivated, in my head.

You don't think farside would run a WK gambit as scum?

[Thor665]

It is presented as paranoia and issue with a vote due to theory of counterwagon push while not voting the primary person that is required to be scum *for* it to be a counterwagon push.

Incorrect.

I suppose that might be true, you weren't the one calling it a counter, you just generically called it hinky.
But even at that point, it's not like it's a well supported case, so I think my initial point holds fine.

[Thor665]

It read as genuine rather than forced townreading, to me. Maybe I'm just soft. I'll have to see what the replacement does to be more sure.

Why did it read as genuine to you?

[Thor665]

I mean, I can assume from context that it has to do with Ank's interactions just prior to 495 but Thor hasn't explicitly given any specific reasons.

And, actually, going back and looking at your stated issue - it's kind of silly that you basically think you know why I did it, but don't ask, *and* declare that it makes me the weakest vote even while not bothering to double check your presupposition or explaining why your presupposition equates to weakness of vote.
So, yeah, my initial point holds - if this is a "fine" case what makes Hecatia's "Weak"?

[Thor665]

Because she gives reasons for the townreads with potential reasons for the things you were scumreading me for, basically summing up how I was thinking despite me not clearly stating it.

Careful - I might make you try to defend his illogical defense of you, if you keep on that line.
But, okay, I understand, and disagree with, your stance.

I care less about the reasons, and more about the action itself. Also I'm not really listening to anything Hecatia is saying anymore, so I don't really know what you're talking about.

So when you were making fun of her case it wasn't because you were aware of the case, but more just a general desire to downplay her position and make her look weak/scummy?

[Thor665]

Thor I think this more of a matter of ETL being a Smurfhole than alignment indicative, convince me?

Since I'm voting Ank and didn't call Concrete scummy for being rude - convince you of what?

Hmmm. Your issue with single vote wagons is that they are useless and unlikely to go anywhere, correct?

That is correct - but your issue holds the belief that a 2 vote (second largest wagon at the time) wagon is the same as a one vote silent for many pages wagon (since RVS, basically) are equal in my mind for it to be hypocrisy.
They are not equal in my mind, and nothing I said indicated as such.
What I'm asking you to defend is the hypocrisy issue.
If your simple issue is "Thor, I also find your vote useless" I suppose we can debate that (I will note, since then, I angled my vote somewhere quite different in line with my apparent mental concept of optimal voting as expressed, while you are still diddling about and, as far as I can tell, derp lying to my face)

I don't see a purpose in saying "Yeah, other people were voting on the wagon with me" when my issue is hypocrisy in intentions, not hypocrisy in words. Unless you'd like to argue that your vote was useful and likely to actually lead to something?

My vote was more useful than yours.
At the time it had been placed had more use than yours.
And has since been moved to a wagon with more use than yours.
Yes - I would argue that.

What I'm asking you to defend is the claim of hypocrisy - you seem to be shifting to "similar to hypocrisy in a general theme, but not quite hypocrisy" am I correct in that?
Insomuch as your raised issue is now being reworked to "Your vote was useless, so whether or not mine was useless for different reasons you're not allowed to call it out" <-- is that about right?
I disagree with that premise, but is that your raised issue?

Only because he asked me to support my vote. When people ask me stuff I provide.

News to me. Let me go find all of the places I asked you to convince me to vote someone. Or any of the games where people asked you to read the thread after you replaced in. Hell, AFAIK, let me go find any of your games at all.

Wow.
Are you having an argument with me about things that are not about alignment but about a personal issue with how I play?
Let's run these down.

1. Asking me to talk you into who to vote when I want to understand who and why you want to vote someone is "slightly" different than being asked "why are you voting someone" especially when I'd already explained why I was voting Vedith quite clearly - unless you weren't reading gak. I don't even get the issue here - you claimed to be aware of my presented case, so why were you asking for it to be repeated?

2. Demanding that I read the game and being told why I won't is a request and a provided answer - whether or not it is the answer you want is another matter. Being asked to advance your case or move to what you consider a better case and being told "why don't you tell me who to vote" is a reply - but it is a dodge and abdication of responsibility - therefore it is not valid to what is, in effect, push a top functional scumread of yours instead of sitting silent on a dead wahgon.

3. Feel free to search my games to find me refusing to state my top scumread, reasons for voting them, a desire to advance the L-1 lynch condition of Day 1, and an annoyance at people sitting on no votes or 1 vote wagons while doing nothing. I am suuuuure you'll find a lot of evidence to back your hypocrisy claim.[/sarcasm and attitude of ownership towards weak attack]

Whassup?

[Thor665]

I am stating that your stated issue with my behavior is bullsmurf, and that "yeah, but there was someone else voting with me" is disingenuous. If you'd like to argue that yours is a prettier shade of grey than mine, then have at it, but I dislike being forced to define terms.

No it wasn't. Your vote was on a dying wagon. A bad dying wagon. And no. Hypocrisy is hypocrisy. You were criticizing me for a behavior that you yourself were engaged in, calling it useless and scummy. More to the point, both of us had roughly the same presence in thread without our votes, and yet what I was doing still ranks as useless.

I got off the wagon after death - as opposed to still sitting there with my thumb up my butt - as you appeared contented to do with your vote on me.
No, you are stretching for the hypocrisy call.
And even if you think it's hypocritical and that I consider them identical situations - it hardly raises an actual valid issue with me not being willing to justify where you should move to when I asked you to move or start pushing. Nor why you were asking me to explain a case you were aware I'd already explained (an issue you didn't deem worthy of addressing even though I asked you about it).

On the other note, let's talk about where your vote is now. Do you disagree with my perceived reason for you Ank vote?

Dunno - to the best of my awareness all you have offered is "it sucks".
Are you seriously asking me to address that? Don't be a dick.
If not - hat was your assessment?

If so, what was your reason for your Ank vote?

The way he responded to Vedith offering up a case on him was to point out how townish Vedith was.
I basically never see that reaction from anyone - no one agrees with a case made on them, because either they're scum and defending or town and know it's wrong.
I see it as more likely to be scum trying to act town than town suddenly deciding the case on them is good.

What are your thoughts on Ank?

1. Is it your assertion that your presented case on Vedith was the reason you were voting him until your vote changed, and that you had no additional case or reasons? Because I think your case on Vedith was gak.

Yes, I am taking the shocking stance that the case I offered on Vedith is, indeed, my case.
That is actually, even if it's a "Gak case" a more logical presumption then that I was just making up stuff as a joke and had a hidden real case that you needed to ask me about to hear.
Seriously?

2. I made no secret of the fact that I didn't particularly have someone I wanted to vote at the time. That'd be part of the reason for asking people who they think is scummy and why, to weigh those responses and decide who is or is not vote worthy. If you can't understand that, you may be playing the wrong game.

If you have no scum reads Day 1, you should sheep a town read.
If you have no reads at all Day 1 you should vote a wagon with activity just to add pressure while asking questions to develop reads.
Which of those statements do you disagree with via your understanding of the game?

3. Nah, I know enough about your modus operandi to not need to search your games.

So we agree that, whether you like my play or not, it's not alignment indicative what you're digging at me over?
because otherwise - what are you on about?

I do have a question for you. What about the Vedith wagon was: stating your top scumread, reasons for voting them, or meaningfully working to advance the L-1 lynch condition of Day 1? Cause that'd be my problem here.

Um - I don't follow.
By voting him, I called him my top scumread.
I gave reasons for voting him.
I added to a sudden snap wagon that had an assured chance to advance to L-1 moreso than any other current wagon at that point.

Even if you disagree and think I'm wrong - it's clear that I was voting someone while calling them scummy and adding to a wagon, so even if you think i did it sloppily, gakkily, and in a weak-arse manner; I do appear to be trying to be aggressive with my vote and push a wagon. So...?

I don't believe Vedith was your top scumread at the time.

So?

I can't believe town you held the vote there for so long on such shaky ground when you obviously had other suspisions

Nothing about my play in any other game should lead to this conclusion.

and you were sitting on a wagon that was obviously going no where.

And moved off it shortly after it dismantled.

[Thor665]

@Lying Cat

What are you even complaining about?

What I'm getting from that back and forth is "I knwo Thor plays bad, but I don't think he plays *this* bad, and I needed him to explain something he'd already explained because I think he was lying about his reason as town/scum because it was a weaker reason then I'd expect from him as town/scum"

Like - I really don't even understand where you're going.
You seem to just be needling me awkwardly while not actually showing why anything you're bringing up is different from a playstyle issue.

Am I wrong?

[Thor665]

Yes, I basically just said that.
Unless you're agreeing with me?

[Thor665]

So your first instinct on seeing a case from him was to go, he's wrong, but, man, how obvious he's scumhunting what with those wrong conclusions I can see and understand the town and not scum thought process?

I don't really buy that, I have to say.

[Thor665]

This is true - can you link to examples of you reacting this way as town before?

[Thor665]

Clearly you don't know me - I'm incredibly lazy

If you are refusing to pull it up yourself, let me know. Otherwise I am content to vote you and wait.

[Thor665]

Ok. 418 you mention there are many places you are poking that have support. ETL asked you to vote her. Your wagon was dead. Why did you not move your vote?

Because I was not particularly of the belief that anyone would sheep my stated issues with ETL (note that, to my awareness, no one besides ETL even noted them as worthwhile issues)
Also, I liked how Vedith was feeling pressure to contribute, and was curious to see where the wagon noise about me being scummy for my vote would go.
Why do you think town Thor would have accepted the invitation?
Because if you don't - this is a pointless question.
I am suspecting it is pointless, because you admit that I present as stubborn and convinced I am right - which means I was convinced that my vote was better served elsewhere or else I would have already been voting Concrete. So, you already understand that town Thor either would have already been doing it, or would have a reason for not doing it - so...seriously, where is this going?

I've had that reaction before as both alignments. The logical opposite to your assertion is that everyone who thinks you are scum must certainly be scum. Which is laughable.

If you think that I didn't explain the issue clearly. Allow me to re-parse.

Vedith makes a case on Ank.
Ank holds it up as an example of how town Vedith is.
To have this belief, theoretically, Ank would need to look at the scumhunting and see logic and town intent.
But, at the same point, being town, Ank should be well aware that Vedith is wrong or using poor logic.
Sure, maybe he thinks Vedith is town for days - but he shouldn't think that a case suggesting he is scum equates to good work for people to see good work and town intent.
It doesn't follow.

But do you dispute that at [p]418[/p] in the thread you had stronger scumreads with more viable wagons?

Yes, I fully dispute that, don't be daft.

Why did you cling to the Vedith case so long?

Which of my "stronger" and "more viable" scumspects and wagons should I have moved to?

Both, actually, but mostly the second. If you don't have any reads, you do what you need to do to develop them or you replace out because you're obviously not playing the game. Voting blindly is counterproductive. Even if you have scumreads, it's sometimes worth more to engage them without a vote.

There is a strong difference between what I'm saying and "vting blindly".
Are you unable to tell that difference?

Because I've never seen you cling to a nonindicative case to the exclusion of actual scumreads before, and it's making me think you're scum.

As I recall I was voting Vedith over voting elsewhere and not in this thread - I know for a fact I have always considered that a scumtell.
So whether or not *YOU* think it's nonindicative - why the hell should that matter for deciding whether I do?
Because I know you can't find me ever claiming it as non-indicative - so...?

It doesn't matter how you read it, it matters how I read it.
And I think you should be aware of that rather important distinction in reading people.
Because your issue, as stated, is utter BS.

I'm intentionally skipping the rest till your final question because I want this point to stand loud and clear.

I suppose the meat and potatoes of this post is:

Thor, how has your read of farside changed throughout the thread? Specifically, what was it at post 418 and what is it now?

Throughout the thread?
I dunno. Started at null and ended up scummy, maybe with some dips in there.
At post 418 judging by post 405 he was on the scum side.
Since then he has flaked out and nothing has changed.

[Thor665]

Yes, you are. I don't think Thor plays bad. I think Thor plays a hard and fast aggressive game that leaves little for him to be read on. I also think that Thor is misrepresenting his reads, which makes the most sense from scum-Thor either attempting to forge or hide connections between him and other players.

I have openly stated in multiple newbie games that you should misrepresent your reads as town when voting for pressure.

So...whut?

[Thor665]

I'm splitting this into two posts, because there's really two different concerns here. First your initial behavior and defense thereof. But you weren't putting pressure on Ved at that point. The wagon had already derailed, and you hadn't mentioned him in pages. On the other hand, you were pushing hard at both ETL and farside, but voting neither of them. I'll admit that getting a wagon on ETL would have been difficult, but there was more than enough tacit support for a farside wagon at the time. Your actions support a farside scumread over a Vedith one, but your vote doesn't.

So we agree ETL would be a hard wagon.
You point out a Farside lynch option - I counter with "Farside is lurking out, so pressure wagon on the slot is kinda pointless"
You also, otherwise, at best are complaining that I'm scumhunting multiple people at once and acting like it's an issue for some reason.

For reference, what is your thought process on why someone posting elsewhere but not here makes them scum?

It's conscious avoidance of thread.
The only reason to do that is because you don't care about scumhunting in this game or are trying to lay low - both are worthy of lynching.

Also, are you admitting to overstating your read on Vedith and were voting for pressure? Or at least to misrepresenting your reads?

I am not admitting to anything - I am pointing out how badly you misunderstand how I play when pressing this rather odd meta based case. Are you claiming that I *don't* do the thing I said I do in other games?

[Thor665]

Is the supposition here that it is impossible to follow a logical progression and be wrong?

No - the supposition is that you don't look at an incorrect logical progression and see town intent.

Or that you cannot see town intent in something that is wrong?

Yes, and that you would not then hold it up as an example of towniness.

In that vein, I notice you have not yet called me scum. What is your read on me?

I'm not sure yet.

[Thor665]

Unvote: Ank
Vote: Davsto

[Thor665]

Oh joys, I'm guessing you're just gonna parrot Wingback's reasons if I ask you?

inb4 Hecatia jumps onto me to because "Sakura changed her mind"

I'm kinda tempted to just claim now before the wagon slowly builds on me and then we run out of time and thus can't get a wagon actually on scum.

Thoughts on this idea?

[Thor665]

Oh joys, I'm guessing you're just gonna parrot Wingback's reasons if I ask you?

Yes, I would do exactly that.
Are you claiming those thoughts are so unsheepable as to be laughable?

I'm kinda tempted to just claim now before the wagon slowly builds on me and then we run out of time and thus can't get a wagon actually on scum.

Thoughts on this idea?

I support this, of course I support multiple Day 1 claims and am voting you, so maybe I'm biased.

[Thor665]

Inb4 hiplop counterclaim.

[Thor665]

Why didn't you vote him?

[Thor665]

Actually, I guess you did.

Unvote: Davsto
Vote: Ank

Okay, I'll buy the name at least.

[Thor665]

Wait - why did you ever unvote him?

[Thor665]

Eh, that sounds weak, but the roleclaim is pretty dumb if you're scum.

Vote Ank with me?

[Thor665]

Why did you pick a villain character as your role choice?
Also, what is the fluff for the jailing?

[Thor665]

You are allowed to paraphrase, but you are not allowed to plagiarize. If in doubt as to your paraphrase's legality, PM me with the wording you want to use.

[Thor665]

I'm not really feeling Pistach as a wagon - do you have even a null feel towards Ank?

[Thor665]

Why and/or why scum on Pistach?

[Thor665]

Above @Wingback

[Thor665]

He did use meta for Ank.

[Thor665]

Oooh, excitement.

@Farside - still waiting to get my question to you answered.

[Thor665]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p7267211

In case you forgot about it.

[Thor665]

[Thor665]

Why is your vote still on Dav? Do you think that he is lying then?

I'll second this - it's a good question.

[Thor665]

Mini 1697 1 and 2 (note: thesp was conftown and this was lylo)

In link 1 you end up voting the person who voted you - I don't see how this doesn't support my theory.
In link 2 you basically didn't react to the vote on you.

Will look at the others in the next few.

[Thor665]

Smite Mafia (note: the SK chose me to get another shot if I ever get lynched)

I gave up after skimming through 10 pages and only seeing one post from you, did you link this correctly to the right spot? What am I looking for here?

[Thor665]

I got lynched day 3 in Smite Mafia.

Okay, so if I iso you, somewhere in there you react with a pro town read off someone pressing a case on you?
I can do that.

[Thor665]

I'm not seeing it, I admit I'm hard skimming here (especially after the self vote) but though I see town reads, I don't see any growing off a case on you or being presented via a case on you.
Should I even bother looking at the fourth link?
I thought I said I was lazy.
I said that, I'm sure.

[Thor665]

=15892&user_select[]=0&user_select[]=0&user_sort=Go]NY 184 (ISO: 17, 25/26, 35/36, just look around the last 20-30 posts before each)

I don't see much with the Kinetic stuff - you basically disagree with him, and then he dies. No real read clarification in there to be seen.
Then with the 35/36 I see you forming scum read out of people who pushed you - which makes sense to me, and also plays into my working theory for you being scum.

I feel like you're not linking me to what I thought we had discussed.
I was talking about getting someone to push a case on you and from that seeing their towniness.
Do any of these show that? I am leaning towards "no".
Is it out there? If you say 'yes' I can go search myself, but I will be even more annoying if I can't find any sight of it.

[Thor665]

@Thor:
Could you talk to me about your Ank read? The only part of your case I understand (because there are a lot of words and words are bad!) is the following:

So your first instinct on seeing a case from him was to go, he's wrong, but, man, how obvious he's scumhunting what with those wrong conclusions I can see and understand the town and not scum thought process?

I don't really buy that, I have to say.

And I disagree that you can't very strongly townread someone for making an incredibly wrong case. And that wouldn't be a statement I don't think you'd disagree with me on? So I'm misreading something somewhere and I'd like to know where.

I am clearly presenting this really badly because I just had to repeat this to LC also.
The point is - you don't hold up a case you know is bad (a case that you are scum) as an example for others to see the glory of the scumhunting of a slot.
Sure, maybe (maybe) he looks at that case and gets town vibes, i could almost go along for that one, though I find it less likely than a 50/50, but to go the step further and declare it brilliant to behold? And also to then *not* address your "town read" and talk them down from suspecting you, but instead duck and deploy?

Bull-hooey, not buying it.

You are?

Thor this was the post again that I felt was a weak attack against dav it was also now that I caught up there where I found dav confused by your response.

Okay...we are not debating whether he did or did not act confused, at least I'm not. I'm aware that he did. It's part of my issue with him.

Part of the discussion also is what drives me a little skeptical of Thor when he won't explain his town read when asked but complains about others town reads.
I also know that is part of my hate of hypocrites though.

I hate it when people don't understand what the word 'hypocrisy' means, but that's just me, apparently.

thor: Why didn't you ask Heca about her town read on you?

Because it was an RVS town read from Sakura - so who cares?

Why is Pist a town read?

Look at the few posts prior - is attacking, but isn't mindless dogged attacking. Looks legit and town scumhunting to me even though he could have sunk teeth in and derped on one of those wagons.

Why, what did you see there?

Oh you're looking for this specific situation?

What did you think I was looking for?

It'll likely take me a couple of days to properly catch up; want to try to catchup in a more pro town way than my usual "read nothing, start doing things later".

Why are you opting for the change?

[Thor665]

It turns out that I'm better at reading people when I actually read their posts

Sure, but why this game for the change?

Also - congrats to us both on that perfect mini
Be town in this one too, that worked well even if I kept being paranoid about you.

PEdit - oooh, you'll love the case CA has on me.[/sarcasm]

[Thor665]

Nacho has never scumread me when im town. Ever.

Serious?

[Thor665]

dont be a butthead. just because i got lazy doesn't mean my observations are invalid. i dont appreciate this Smurfy attempt at discrediting me. he can find it himself and call it Smurfy if he wants.

What?
Oh c'mon, you are pressing a joke on me, I've called it a joke in thread already, me still thinking it is a joke isn't going to color Nacho. You being so sensitive about it does more to affect the value of the read than anything I can actually say about it, as the actual "logic" can't really be assaulted, now can it?
Also - why does every post from you make me feel like we've never played together before or discussed theories about how I play the game?
Because that's what I keep getting, and it's not making me happy-happy about you.

He's able to see always when im town, and always defends me because ppl scumread my style easily.
It's kinda weird that for the first time in my entire life nacho's scumreading me, and is doing it by harping on notty, yet not trying to read me, and forcing me to defend notty.
@CA: Pistachio's fine for me, Thor isn't, i still think he's town right now.

Has he ever scumread you when he was scum?

I'd argue he's holding it up as the example of Vedith's scum hunting because it's all the scum hunting that he's done.

I won't disagree with that, it did make me townish on Vedith myself.

And, while I find the read itself dumb, I don't really see why it's a read Ank holds as scum.

That comes from my belief that players tend to scumread people who scumread them - it's my new working theory for why I get scumread so much as town and not scum, it's because I attack more generically and widely as town because I'm, y'know, actually scumhunting.
You *don't* often see people develop town reads off of people attacking them. So, when looking at something that's unusual I have two options.

1. Ank is a unique and beautiful snowflake of town.
2. Ank is trying to do something he thinks town would do.

I Ockham'ed it and voted.

The places I'm currently willing to vote are massive/Cataphant/Vedith

Currently I would oppose both Vedith and Massive as pushes, and you have expressed nothing to sell me as scum on either of them.
You also haven't done so with Cat, who I'm not really scumreading either but might at least entertain.

Why do you townread Ank?
Or null read him to the point of avoiding the option of lynching him?

[Thor665]

@Nacho - in support of my Ank stance, i will also note that he linked a variety of town games to show me...something. In them he was town, and on more than one occasion (twice in the four by my count) voted someone off of an attack on him. Ank was town - so...that is assuredly something he does at least do a fair amount as town. So...Ockham.

[Thor665]

Which one do you think he's going for here?

If anything - both.
I'm not following the logic of a scumread on you equating to a scum Nacho though. Carry me over that gap?

[Thor665]

i'm keeping in mind the discussions we've had and what i've observed of your town game. i'm not finding it easy to determine if you're one way or the other right now.

So basically I'm a null read.
That you vote parked on.
Because I had a vote which you didn't fully see as non-opportunistic.
Without asking me why I did it.
And aware of the idea that I favor aggressive wagoning.

Tell me why this shouldn't look weird? Because it looks weird.

The part where Nacho brought up that he's always townread me when im scum and so he's trying to read notscience.

Why wouldn't he try to read notscience if he was town though?

[Thor665]

He is NOT trying to read notscience, he's using notscience as an excuse to push my slot (or was, until i claimed).

This does have some teeth to it, but as a counterthought - you claimed pretty toot-fast so it's not like we have a lot of time to analyze. Functionally you have him loosely suspecting you for a few real life hours immediately upon replace in.

You think this case has legs? I don't.

[Thor665]

And thank you

[Thor665]

It seems like most people in this thread are townreading Vedith based on his attack on Ank

Besides me who has expressed this thought?
I can't think of anyone.

Lying Cat

,

Massive

and

Thor

, can you post a list of your reads please?

Scum - Ankamius, Lying Cat

Town - Vedith, Wingback, Hecatia Lapislazuli, massive, pistachi0n

Null - Nachomamma8, Davsto, farside22, Cataphant, Concrete Angels

I'd also like both (Lying Cat, Thor) of your thoughts on Farside's catch up posts.

It looked nice.

I view this as weak, juvenile play. If a player is unable to see town motivation in attacks on them, they have a long way to go to improve as a player.

Sure - but that doesn't change the point, nor change how often this happens, so I'm not sure what issue you're challenging.
I also think any lurking at all is juvenile and insulting and shows massive rudeness and should be one of the first things any player fixes int heir game - doesn't mean people don't do it, nor that it's something you cannot get alignment reads off of.

Alternatively, I could see Lying Cat and Thor as scum together fabricating this argument. Both seem the type to be capable of orchestrating a natural-looking interaction as scum.

People always say stuff like this about me.
I literally don't think there is even a single example of me ever doing anything of the sort - so I have no idea where the base concept comes from.

[Thor665]

How in the heck are we Null Thor... what a cop out. We've interacted well enough for you to give some judgement. You've never had a problem doing so in our other games.

You're null because you're spewing scummy stuff while also just skating the line fine enough that I can almost buy it as bad play with me, as the rest of your play doesn't scream at me.

Why, what have you done that I should be getting a clear read off of?

[Thor665]

So basically I'm a null read.
That you vote parked on.
Because I had a vote which you didn't fully see as non-opportunistic.
Without asking me why I did it.
And aware of the idea that I favor aggressive wagoning.

Tell me why this shouldn't look weird? Because it looks weird.

@CA

[Thor665]

Why Pistach town? The only mention I saw in your ISO was in Post 369. His posts before that didn't strike me as alignment indicative. They were mostly discussion about what he considers lynchbait.

I already answered this, like, yesterday or something, here;

Look at the few posts prior - is attacking, but isn't mindless dogged attacking. Looks legit and town scumhunting to me even though he could have sunk teeth in and derped on one of those wagons.

Why Massive town? Your first mention of this was in Post 287 where you quoted a post by massive. But most of his argument against Hecatia was based off of Concrete's push so it wasn't original. If Massive was town for it, why not Concrete? Shouldn't they be more town since they originally presented the argument you are townreading him for?

That would only make sense if they had otherwise kept doing all of the same things - they haven't, so, yeah, it makes sense that I have different reads there and, no, it would make no sense to be townreading CA off that and ignoring other issues with that slot. I am pretty sure I never called CA scummy for pushing Hecatia, so...?

My point is that he may be a better player than you're giving him credit for.

That might be, but my research into his linked games doesn't suggest that - did you look at them or read my responses to them?

Your argument only works IF he as town is juvenile enough to be unable to see pushes on him as town.

Most town are, so...Ockhams?

[Thor665]

Thor, I feel like you have seen my scum game enough to know the difference.

I never really claim that type of meta awareness on anyone - you can ask Nacho, I always act like meta reading is a deep and fascinating mystery.

I feel like you pulling a null on me rather than just calling me scum is icky and fence-sitty and inappropriate.

So you're saying I do that as scum?

I've been transparent enough that you should be able to form an opinion of my motivations one way or the other. It's not like I've been cryptic or absent.

I will agree you have been present.

AND if you are town and you just think I'm Smurfy, tell me why.

I have - remember that whole case thing?
Remember how I'm "demeaning it" and attacking you subtly and trying to downplay you to Nacho?
You blew up at me over that, now you're acting like I haven't been clear with a stated issue about why I find your play Smurfy?
Serious?

Also, I answered this.

If the quotes from before the question are the answer - is your answer best described as "paranoia"?
Because you don't seem to be saying anything.
You also seem to be hedging me into a null read while complaining that I'm putting you in a null read - what are your thoughts on that?

Eh, that sounds weak, but the roleclaim is pretty dumb if you're scum.

Vote Ank with me?

And I'm null?

Oh, darn, gosh, I'm sorry, i meant to list you as town, what with all the strong town vibes I've expressed about you in this thread, and not calling you scum but then unvoting you due to a claim.

Yes - you are null.

[Thor665]

I feel like you pulling a null on me rather than just calling me scum is icky and fence-sitty and inappropriate.

i'm keeping in mind the discussions we've had and what i've observed of your town game. i'm not finding it easy to determine if you're one way or the other right now.

Putting these next to each other to see if they make more sense that way.

[Thor665]

@Dav - not to distract you from your deep and well reasoned response in 953 which makes your question well worth it.
But could you address your thoughts on 954?
I'd like to see you comment on some more stuff in game, after all, you're so townish and open in all your opinions and not sitting on the sidelines riding a claim, so this is just part and parcel for you.
But, seriously, address it - am I crazy, or does that look derpy?

[Thor665]

Yeah that's great and all but this isn't some puzzling piece of insight. It's not like "ETL always uses contractions as town but never as scum" kind of nonsense. This is the fact that you've played with me only when I was scum. So any major, glaring differences in play should be noticed. Is that an unfair expectation?

I guess not - what sort of glaring difference in play should I have noticed?

Then why are you having such a hard time coming up with a solid read on me?

What about your play being scummy as regards the push on me and not scummy elsewhere is confusing to you as a stated read?

No, look. The thing I got irritated about was the interjection. Not the fact that you called it "smurfy" already.

I don't care - but, you *are* then aware that I *have* stated my issues with your play already, multiple times - correct?
So why are you asking me about it like I haven't?

I don't have you at a null read. I think you are scummy. You apparently have no clue whatsoever about me at all.

If you think I'm scummy why are you expressing that you are having difficulty in sorting me? How does that advance your scum case on me or advance sorting of me?

It looks a bit odd, yes. You're both town, obviously.

Why is CA obvious town despite saying things that are a bit odd?

[Thor665]

Yeah that's great and all but this isn't some puzzling piece of insight. It's not like "ETL always uses contractions as town but never as scum" kind of nonsense. This is the fact that you've played with me only when I was scum. So any major, glaring differences in play should be noticed. Is that an unfair expectation?

I guess not - what sort of glaring difference in play should I have noticed?

Especially since, as I recollect, you flaked out on me - so I'm not even sure why you'd expect me to have a deeper understanding of your scum play than the average Joe.

[Thor665]

I suppose, what I should have said then, is that I've been trying to see you as town, and having trouble doing that.

That would change the meaning of the sentence, yes.

I know for a fact that my town game vastly differs from my scum game. In what ways, I don't know, but most people who have played with me a few times find it easy to tell when I'm town. I know that when I'm scum, I have to try

really friggin hard

to emulate that. If the difference was less glaring, it wouldn't be that hard to do. Based on that, I do expect you to see something.

Weren't you noting how little experience I have with your town game?
I do recall catching you in our scum game based off a badly made case that I didn't like, however. Maybe I'm crazy, but that seems valid to have issue with you over considering our history, especially if you can't describe what you're certain I should be able to spot - I apparently can't describe it either, so of course it's not affecting me, so...yeah, empty issue.

I am not asking you about what you don't like about my case on you. Is that the only thing you think is scummy/smurfy?

Yes, the scummy issue that I brought up and called scummy is my expressed issue with your slot, you have accurately divined my hidden and obfuscating nature of posting, sorry that took so long - I have a bad habit of presenting reads that way and can't seem to fix it.

[Thor665]

Concrete Angels isn't the lynch today, face it. I'm too tired to analyse him but he's seeming town over other alignments now.

So, basically a gut read and then you're dismissing them?
Meh.

[Thor665]

Concrete Angels isn't the lynch today, face it. I'm too tired to analyse him but he's seeming town over other alignments now.

So, basically a gut read and then you're dismissing them?
Meh.

pistach = decent post-based scumread
CA = gut townread

are you honestly berating me for advocating the first over the second?

No, and nothing in my post suggests that I am - what I am doing is assessing how much quality there is in your read of a player you're apparently choosing to not even try to sort today and dismiss as pro-town even when I raise an issue about that that you agree at least exists.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to say to this. You have already noted that there are differences in my play here, which you then decided was scummy, despite the fact that it should indicate otherwise to you.

When did I indicate that your play was "different" in any raised issue I had with you?
I indicated play I found scummy and said as much - I am unaware what, if anything, should indicate it as not scummy to me; feel free to fill in the blank here.

[Thor665]

Thor, I feel like you have seen my scum game enough to know the difference.

I never really claim that type of meta awareness on anyone - you can ask Nacho, I always act like meta reading is a deep and fascinating mystery.

Oh, hey, look, here I am explicitly stating that I am *not* hunting for differences in playstyle.

[Thor665]

Going back to hecatia.

So you're not okay with her claim?

[Thor665]

Unvote: Ank
Vote: Lying Cat

[Thor665]

Choo-choo?

[Thor665]

Because it's "Fast".
Also, I'm scum due to paranoia and wagoning earlier, so this is a continuation of both trends.

[Thor665]

It always makes me paranoid when I see a case that doesn't impress me very much get sheeped that hard that fast.

Didn't it impress you of his townishness though?
Why wouldn't that get sheep?

[Thor665]

Clearly I'm too dumb to see what you're getting at - can you clarify that and how it answers my question?

[Thor665]

That would make sense.

[Thor665]

I did not - I thought you were talking about the case Vedith made on you.

[Thor665]

I did not - I thought you were talking about the case Vedith made on you.

So I was right the first time.

How is your original question relevant then?

It wouldn't be - that's why I dropped it like a bad habit.

Quick rin down for the time being - Why is LC on 5 votes?

Because 5 town/scum think he's scummy/lynchable.

What is your value call on the slot and the wagon?

[Thor665]

I, uh... Let's see here. There are two known quantities here. Scum have a ninja and a backup ninja. Whenever the third member of their team flips, I will be confirmed town by virtue of the fact that my role is confirmable. Also worth noting, the only purpose my claim would have is to help scum determine whether I'm a higher priority kill than either of the other claimed PRs.

If you believe this - shouldn't you be advocating a mass claim?

[Thor665]

The Mafia will have a player with the Ninja modifier and one with a Back-up Ninja modifier. These only apply to the factional kill.

This is a claim of *modifier* not of *role*.

So...I'm not getting where you're coming from, Cat.
Talk me through it?

[Thor665]

Hello?

[Thor665]

Who would you lynch besides LC?

That is a broad question, for the actual specific of who I'd *like* to lynch besides him, Ank.
For the 'who would you be willing to lynch; anyone I haven't listed as a town read recently.

How do you feel about Catapants

Pretty 'meh' at the moment, but a lynch there mostly just feels like 'lynch the twerpy player' which, while I'm not exactly against, I'm not exactly salivating over either. I'd vote him for the lark, I guess, but I'd rather vote the slot trying to buy their way into a second day off a half claim, a half read rule, and an apparent total lack of fear of scum having any interference roles or of you being scum or both.

[Thor665]

Ankamius - 1 (Vedith)
Cataphant - 1 (Ankamius)
Hecatia Lapislazuli - 2 (massive, pistachi0n)
Lying Cat - 5 (Thor665, Wingback, Davsto, Nachomamma8, Hecatia Lapislazuli,

Cataphant

)
Nachomamma8 - 1
pistachi0n - 2 (Cataphant, Concrete Angels)
Thor665 - 1 (Lying Cat)

Not Voting: farside22[/quote]
About two days left.

Ank is doing spit all with his wagon on Cat.
Lying Cat is doing spit all with his wagon on me (in a shock to...no one)
Vedith is doing spit all with the ank vote, though did go with a hammer intent, so not really bothered there as much.
CA is at least vaguely thrashing the Pistach wagon.
Massive and Pistach are sitting quietly on Hecatia, as though that fething matters.

Hecatia wagoners need to talk up or move.
Single wagon derp heads should have been off those wagons yesterday.

[Thor665]

But I'm preferring Lying Cat. Last-minute wagon changes worry me.

The Lying Cat wagon happened yesterday - what qualifies that one as not last minute and a wagon today as last minute?
Your breaking point is 3+ days till deadline 'good' and >3 days 'bad'?

[Thor665]

Oh, and to whoever was wondering about the LC wagon (which I think is Vedith, who offered hammer intent...?)
Here's the short and sweet.

Gut.

Here's the long and drawn out.

He has been sitting with a vote on me, poking me, and trying to enrage me emotionally to 'read' me and has literally I don't think voted anyone else or even really engaged anyone else (not even to exhort them to vote me) so, basically he's doing nothing, hunting nothing, and voting nothing, while claiming that he's deeply scumhunting me. I'm pretty sure that's either a lie, or a useless player, and I don't think Jingle is a useless player.

[Thor665]

I don't like how quickly it grew.

What the hell about its speed was *remotely* suspect?

it started up from three players who had all expressed issue with LC for days and days all realizing their current pushes weren't going anywhere and changing to LC, then was supported by Nacho (who doesn't seem like a shocker to sheep me, and also listed issues with Cat), Hecatia (who may be suvivalism wagonig, maybe...?) and Cataphant (who hopped off almost immediately again)

And you want to wagon Pistach - who had nothing to do with it.

Whut?

[Thor665]

LC may well actually be scum. But I feel nothing about the slot other than I know Jingle, I know RL happens, and I am curious to see what he is talking about. It's not like he's the only mafia if he is; there are two others, AND there's no way I would allow him to live another day if he didn't deliver.

Meaning one scum roleblocker or role delayer or killing you, or you're scum and we mislynch him?

Like, it's not like I completely disagree with the fact that his claim and manner of claiming is scummy as Smurf and is survivalist as all get out. You'd have to be an idiot not to see that and I'm not an idiot.

But, I've given my reasons for why I want what I want.

Barks like a dog and smells like a dog...

[Thor665]

Deadline: (expired on 2015-10-18 00:40:36)

We have more than ten hours.

[Thor665]

UNVOTE: Ank
VOTE: pistachi0n

Yup, I can get behind this. The opinion over Dav and how easy he unvoted said it all to me.

Dav is voting in support of the Pistach wagon -so I feel like I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.
Can you clarify what you mean by this?

[Thor665]

This page reads like insanity to me.

[Thor665]

Look - I actually already disproved LC's claim that he could be "confirmed".
I literally disproved it.

The only question now is whether you think he would make that mistake as town or be trying to pass through a load of hogwash as scum.
To my mind, that's the only debate point about the clearing (since apparently everyone is buying into the no roleblock/delay/CA is scum issues with the plan) as I'm apparently the only one seeing the otherwise massive holes in the plan even if everything worked the way LC implied, which it pretty clearly doesn't.

CA's defense towards Wingback is reading really nitpicky while not picking nits that are actually disproving some of her issues, which is weird and not happy making.
That said, i am actually okay with the Pistach push, even though I don't understand the case there, but I'm supportive of the LC push.

@Ank - why do you think LC is worth letting live for 2-3 day phases to see if they have an ability? Seriously, like, what's even the point of that? That doesn't seem like a reason to not lynch them today - could you explain why you don't want to lynch them today but would be okay with potentially lynching them later? Because it *sounds* like you're saying that you don't really suspect them, but kinda suspect them - except your phrasing it within the claim buisness, which theoretically should have nothing to do with it as they haven't claimed gak all.

[Thor665]

I guess you could also be debating that, by definition, a ninja and backup ninja modifier for NKs precludes any other role option...but I'd be fine if someone wanted to argue that also. But that's the only other valid issue I can see.

I don't get the point of giving them an extra phase though - why should we? Whoop-de-doo, maybe they have a power. That will show nothing unless the power is innocent child or a straight cop. Even another killing role wouldn't really 'clear' them, so...?

[Thor665]

Vote: Cataphant

[Thor665]

If I were to make an assumption on who scum was if they chose a Wingback kill for suspect reasons, I'd lean Cataphant or Concrete Angels.

You're voting Pistach though - so...?

please don't quicklynch. I'd like to hear from everyone. thoughts on yesterday's lynch would be grand too. any ideas on the LC wagon specifically is what I'd like to hear.

I think at least one scum was probably on the LC wagon, what of it?

[Thor665]

I think at least one scum was probably on the LC wagon, what of it?

who do you think it is most likely to be?

If I knew that I'd be voting and screaming about it.
I am content on a chaff lynch today.

[Thor665]

Nope, I have not offered a vote nor suggested yesterday a top scumread other than LC.
I am like a hidden wall of no opinion.

[Thor665]

Nope, I have not offered a vote nor suggested yesterday a top scumread other than LC.
I am like a hidden wall of no opinion.

Sarcasm?



Please. I am looking for help to sort this out.

When did you decide I was town?

[Thor665]

in any case, thor, i'm asking you to discuss work with me, talk me through things, and you're denying me, and i dont like it.

I attempted communication yesterday when you pressed a hoo-hah case on me.
Today I'm voting for someone in your scum list and you're wanting to talk to me about top theory suspects.
::shrug::

[Thor665]

No, but it does seem to already answer the question of who I suspect.

[Thor665]

He's been a strong voice so had enough power to remain mostly unscathed, but upon reflection (especially with wingback flipping town) shows that a lot of what he was saying was BS.

How does Wingback flipping town make what I say look more like BS than it already did or didn't?
That doesn't appear to make any sense at all.

[Thor665]

^ posts like this? Using fear tactics to get them lynched. Other folks had reasonable stances like "we'll get them if they can't confirm themselves", and you went gung ho the whole time. Saying you "confirmed" they can't prove it.

I did confirm that - and even if you think i didn't how is that a fear tactic?

A town player would see this and react to give them a chance. A scum player who's buddy is the alternative would go gung ho for the original one. Good play in the moment, but it got you caught.

I would suggest that Wingback was, by a solid margin, the most "gung-ho" player on the wagon, and he flipped town, proving your point wrong.
So why are you acting like it's valid when applied to me?

[Thor665]

I don't understand why Cataphant is such a popular target today when they were ignored for most of yesterday while I was trying to get that going; anyone care to explain a change of heart?

What's not to understand?
He was the most popular of the choices you offered - so clearly there was support there.
You sat around reading up.
A push started on LC, who probably had more support than Cat.
You leaped onto the LC wagon without ever really pushing the Cat one.

Why does that confuse you to the gamestate today?

@nacho, its because the wagon on me is opportunistic scum

I WAS THE ORIGINAL ONE ON PISTACHIO. Get out of here with your idiotic "no reasoning" bullshit, dav.

Are you intentionally dodging my question?
If so, let me know so I don't waste time bringing it up to you over and over.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p7321052

[Thor665]

Besides not really scum hunting. Asking pointless questions and just actively lurking.

I can see with a squint not thinking he's scumhunting well and that his questions are pointless. I disagree and consider it more of a playstyle thing, but I can see where you're coming from there.
How are you justifying active lurk on him though?
Like, even just glancing at what he's posted this phase I do not even see that remotely supported as a concept. Clarify?

[Thor665]

So you do agree that, at least starting today Pistach has leveled a case against someone, pressured them (these two points regardless of the elative quality you apply to said case and pressure), and isn't actively lurking?
So, is it last Day Phase they were active lurking?

[Thor665]

I disagree with the application of 'active lurk' to the entirety of Day 2 from Pistach.

You are claiming active lurk on Day 1?

[Thor665]

Why does getting ahold of your feelings here feel like wrestling with wet cookie dough?

[Thor665]

Is Pist engaging others day 2?
Not really

I see Pist both stating a scumread and engaging people about her scumread.
So, I would actually say - yes.
Even by you saying "not really" you are accepting that *something* is happening, just apparently not to a standard you are happy with...but, easily a vast swathe of the game is being more active lurk than that this phase, so what the hell?

Is she really pushing her points any more day 2 then she did day 1?
No

Does she push her points more when town than when scum?
Because if not - this is a meaningless point, and also, if she's pushing her points as much now as on Day 1 then i still don't get the active lurk claim.

Are you town reading her?

Yes.

[Thor665]

You act like this is new.
Serious question but what is your experience when you see players that flip scum?

That I am happy, unless I'm allied, then I'm sad.

This isn't a meta thing. This is what I see over and over and over again and it just makes me look at players like really? You don't see this in every game?
A play that just pushes mild points and lurkers most of the game while others are trying to figure the game out.
A player that makes a few weak points and then disappears when a real conversation is going on.
I see it so much and so often I go well there is scum.
And I get this same thing of well this person here reads town so I'm sticking with it.
All the while I just glare at the computer screen and ask myself 10 times over are people dumb or scum.

I will agree, you have identified potentially poor play from Pistach.
You are not addressing it in Cataphant.
And you have apparently decided Pistach's equates to scum play.

What I'm sking you is why.
Is the answer actually "gut" rather than that bullhooey "active lurk" claim you just handed the thread?

Why does getting ahold of your feelings here feel like wrestling with wet cookie dough?

The irony.

It is thick.

There is a bit of a difference between asking someone to justify a case they have offered and receiving mush; and asking someone for their reads when they'd already been presented and receiving snark.

[Thor665]

So you're making value calls on her play with zero Pistach experience?

[Thor665]

And, at the same time, expressing belief that I might be dumb for not seeing what you're seeing...

[Thor665]

Why are you cool with Cataphant?

[Thor665]

I'm making a call on what I see from playing these games.

Wherein you are just making an empty value call on how Pistach plays and calling it scummy because it's active lurk and poor scumhunting as opposed to a weak player?
I mean, if I was playing like that, yeah, call me on it, it would make sense.
And if Hecatia suddenly went all cold logic and calmness, call her on that.
But that doesn't mean that sloppy scumhunting or cold logic are scummy - they are playstyle. I presume you understand this, so why not have just openly said to me that you had no clue about how Pistach plays as opposed to the twenty questions for it? Also, Pistach *is* doing stuff, yeah, maybe not enough to make you happy, but I wouldn't even remotely call her in the bottom five for this day phase, so why are you acting like she is? Are the other players who are derping around less bothersome to you? Why?

Because at least I see something from cata this game.

Like what?

Where the Smurf is Nacho? Do you care?

Nacho is not posting much on the entire site, and though I might be able to squint and see an avoidance of this game, it is not particularly telling at this stage - unless you think I'm missing something?
I do care - but stating that I care has no meaning, and me going 'where the eff is Nacho!?!' also has no meaning, also, neither action will do much at this point and I'm not emotionally connected to this game enough at this stage to be pissed at people, I went through a phase of that last phase, but currently life is too busy for me to much care.

Where is Pist?

Posting as often here as in any other game she is in.

Where is massive?

Posting about with the same Nacho habits where it *might* be a dodge, but you'd need to squint to call it that.

Where is verdith's?

He is the only player you named that could basically cleanly be argued as ducking this thread - you are voting Pistach.
You are also ignoring Cataphant, who has had both heads be consistantly active on site, though maybe they're ignoring it due to 'lulz, hydra' but if absence is an issue to you, this guy is a glaring oversight to your rant that I do not grok.

You going to say everyone one of those players is town except cata then you can go fly a kite.

I would suggest that with a list of 4 you probably do have a scum listed in there.
That said, I could also list off a random 4 and manage about the same odds - bearing in mind the idea we're both town.
That doesn't actually provide a valid reason to lynch Pista over Cata though, does it? As it is equally applicable to both, with the added note that Cata actually appears to be lurking out the game while there is some disagreement at least between you and I about how useless and active lurk Pista actually is being, with only one of us claiming any awareness at all to what normal Pistach play should even be expected to look like.

[Thor665]

holy crap where did that come from.

So basically Pistach posts up a few half finished and vague thoughts and suddenly is towny enough not only to unvote, but to half sheep?

He's been a strong voice so had enough power to remain mostly unscathed, but upon reflection (especially with wingback flipping town) shows that a lot of what he was saying was BS.

How does Wingback flipping town make what I say look more like BS than it already did or didn't?
That doesn't appear to make any sense at all.

Why did you object to that instead of him thinking what you're saying is BS in general?

This is an incredibly empty question that appears to be for the sake of asking questions.

I asked about the one, because him thinking my opinions are BS is a debate of opinion, and serves no purpose.
Him thinking that somehow Wingback flipping town says something about my alignment is a conclusion which (theoretically) he ought to be able to back up to prove he is scumhunting as opposed to just spouting gak.
I asked about the point that would actually allow me to scumhunt him, as opposed to debating the merits of my towniness and trying to make him look stupid.
Felt this was pretty obvious really.

I am curious to see where this goes, as my expectation is 'nowhere at all'.
Prove me wrong, please.

[Thor665]

So basically Pistach posts up a few half finished and vague thoughts and suddenly is towny enough not only to unvote, but to half sheep?

I mean, if I thought Pisyach was active lurking and not providing valid scumhunting - there is nothing in those few posts to even come close to changing my mind.
And if it did - why the hell can I not get you to discuss Cataphant as a valid vote?

[Thor665]

Dunno, with all the Smurf i took Day 1 when i was actually putting effort, why should i even bother, my role being outed is borderline useless and i've been bored ever since then.

~Sakura

Replace out or play the game - those are your two options.

He wouldn't know, unless he was investigative in which case he'd get no result. Please keep this in mind when he claims.

Also I don't get the scum read on them

You could basically take your case on Pistach and replace Ctaphant's name into it and have a perfectly legit case on Cataphant, or at least as perfectly legit as the one you have on Pistach.

What's not to grok about the issue with the slot?
You find him to be a scumhunting pro-town dynaball right now?
I mean, obviously you don't - but if you have issues with sloppy play, lurking, and not being proactive...well, here's a slot doing that.
He also voted on a town lynch wagon, so that's a plus with me.

But it reads like Cataphant is completely ignoring the possibility that Thor could just be white-knighting a town Pistachi0n. Basically -- when I read Cataphant's posts, I expect them to be voting for Thor based on their posts, but they continue to push Pistachi0n, which makes no sense to me.

He also has ducked explaining shoddy reasoning when directly asked about it.
Twice.

i know. he's been sticking his neck out super far to save pistachio and it's weird AF.

I am not even remotely sticking my neck out for Pistach - and if I am then Farside is doing twice as much for Cataphant, so even if that does bug you why aren't you also poking at Farside for his defense?

How am I sticking my neck out for Pistach in a way that is beyond what other people are doing?
Like, as far as I can tell I'm just claiming that I see him scumhunting, pushing things, and don't particularly scumread him, and also apply a town lean to him.
Apparently Farside has reversed on Pista enough to switch to Nacho (something he apparently forgets while bemoaning to you that we're not lynching Pistach) and that's not weird to either of you.
So, seriously, what the hell are you even talking about here?

[Thor665]

I'm actually down with the idea of lynching Hecatia now.

[Thor665]

Farside is also probably back to a scum lean - reading that last comment is just skeevy.

[Thor665]

Everytime someone starts a case on pistachio, you chime in and try to diffuse the suspicion. it's something I've noticed and it's weird, and obviously you've done it more than farside because I haven't noticed farside re: cataphant, but i HAVE noticed you.

To the best of my awareness I have done it once - when Farside presented his case on Pistach, which is, to my awareness, the only case on Pistach that has been offered.
Farside also chimed in at the same time in defense of Cataphant.
What elements am I forgetting in the history of my Pistach defense?

it is weird.

I am glad you acknowledge it.

how is it that you can discuss exactly what i'm talking about and then ask what i'm talking about...

The line you quoted there was a restatement of my position that your stance and commentary make zero sense and an offer for you to back it up with supporting evidence to your beliefs.

what... the heck... are you even thinking? if you are town, i seriously cannot follow you.

Her last post was *literally* scum 101 for claim coasting and Hecatiascum 101 for avoiding dealing with continued effort for providing town emotional tells.
What are you talking about?

[Thor665]

Okay.

Since I'm not currently voting her - I don't really care about your value call there unless you wish to explain why her play falls in line with being town.
So you can make this a useful conversation or we can drop it - you appear to be taking it nowhere.

Vote Cataphant?

[Thor665]

To the best of my awareness I have done it once - when Farside presented his case on Pistach, which is, to my awareness, the only case on Pistach that has been offered.
Farside also chimed in at the same time in defense of Cataphant.
What elements am I forgetting in the history of my Pistach defense?

Also, I note you dropped this.
Shall I interpret that as taict agreement with my understanding of reality?

[Thor665]

eh. i'd really rather pistachio go first.

if cataphant goes though, and flips town? you are most certainly scum and i will not stop until you are dead.[/quotte]
By that logic you're scum if Pistach is town.
Don't spew derp at me, really now.

No. You can interpret it as "ETL had to leave work to go to class and didn't have time to comb through Thor's ISO to find all the tidbits that came in defense of pistachio."

"Because there isn't really all that much there, so why in the world are you acting like my level of defense is beyond what it actually is?"

[Thor665]

eh. i'd really rather pistachio go first.

if cataphant goes though, and flips town? you are most certainly scum and i will not stop until you are dead.

By that logic you're scum if Pistach is town.
Don't spew derp at me, really now.

No. You can interpret it as "ETL had to leave work to go to class and didn't have time to comb through Thor's ISO to find all the tidbits that came in defense of pistachio."

[/quote]
"Because there isn't really all that much there, so why in the world are you acting like my level of defense is beyond what it actually is?"

[Thor665]

scum
{pistachi0n, cataphant

[Thor665]

Maybe you're also scum if Cat flips town.
Did I not get the scum QT link or something?

[Thor665]

Why?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p7338420
Don't skim.

[Thor665]

I got fascinated by this "sticking my neck out concept.

I am going to call both Farside and ETL out for basicallly lying or derping.
To help them out I present my vast array of hardcore Pistach defense - they can feel free to let me know when I crossed the line and stuck out my neck.

Spoiler: Thor's Pistach Defense Walls

I'm not really feeling Pistach as a wagon - do you have even a null feel towards Ank?

Why is Pist a town read?

Look at the few posts prior - is attacking, but isn't mindless dogged attacking. Looks legit and town scumhunting to me even though he could have sunk teeth in and derped on one of those wagons.

Why, what did you see there?

I don't like how quickly it grew.

What the hell about its speed was *remotely* suspect?

it started up from three players who had all expressed issue with LC for days and days all realizing their current pushes weren't going anywhere and changing to LC, then was supported by Nacho (who doesn't seem like a shocker to sheep me, and also listed issues with Cat), Hecatia (who may be suvivalism wagonig, maybe...?) and Cataphant (who hopped off almost immediately again)

And you want to wagon Pistach - who had nothing to do with it.

Whut?

That said, i am actually okay with the Pistach push, even though I don't understand the case there, but I'm supportive of the LC push.

If I were to make an assumption on who scum was if they chose a Wingback kill for suspect reasons, I'd lean Cataphant or Concrete Angels.

You're voting Pistach though - so...?

Besides not really scum hunting. Asking pointless questions and just actively lurking.

I can see with a squint not thinking he's scumhunting well and that his questions are pointless. I disagree and consider it more of a playstyle thing, but I can see where you're coming from there.
How are you justifying active lurk on him though?
Like, even just glancing at what he's posted this phase I do not even see that remotely supported as a concept. Clarify?

It is basically 80% of every time I mentioned Pistach outside of my early noting them as a town read and an additional two or three posts trying to debate whether or not she was active lurking and why with Farside (a debate he is basically side hopping - and then dropped the case on).

So, yeah.

[Thor665]

I will even fully agree with this statement;

"Thor is defending Pistach more than anyone else in the thread...albeit mostly by just not scumreading the slot and asking people why they do"

But I don't think that should actually make people suspect of me if they also suspect Pistach. It would make sense to call that WK action, but...no one is.

[Thor665]

don't be angry with me, i was hoping you could go more in-depth :[

Then ask for that - not what you did.

more specifically, why is Hecatia's post scum 101 for coasting (and is farside & davesto scum for doing the exact same things?)

Scum try to coast on claims.
She is amping up the uselessness of her claim while not scumhunting.
That is coasting.
Both Dav and Farside are at least in here making a read's trail that we can look back on - she isn't. Ergo; she is scum coasting on her claim.

and where have you seen Sakura provide a bunch of town emotional tell as scum and then play "I don't care about this game anymore"?

I am openly on record as not understanding nor trying to read her emotions.
That said - I do understand that she has said faking them, as scum, is exhausting.
She is clearly trying to avoid having to give active purpose to the thread - that precludes scumhunting of her and precludes emotion tells on her, and would make sense from a Sakura scum.

I will reverse challenge you with this - how often does Sakura drop a lot of town tells and then lurk out the game for a phase or more?
I don't have that in my meta understanding of her.
Do you?

[Thor665]

I agree that scum try to coast on claims, but I'm also of the opinion that scum try to disguise coasting when it's happening in that they are far more likely to pop in with surface-level garbage every few days as opposed to just announcing that they aren't doing anything and they don't understand anything; the latter is far more likely to draw immediate attention than the former. I do think that the claim is far more likely to be coming from town than not. Do you disagree with either of these points?

I do - since I was and am the only person raising an issue about Sakura's post - I don't think that is something scum would avoid half as much as you imply.
Also, it plays in perfectly with the concept of Sakura faking being emotive.

Lurking is unusual from her as either alignment.
I see your point re: Sakura having more motivation to lurk out and disappear as scum than she does as town and I agree that the reasons she's lurking out don't really make sense. Would be interested in hearing from notscience at this point, and would be interested in hearing why Sakura needs a useful role in order to post in the game.

Okay then.
Back to the scumhunting in progress.

where have you seen Sakura provide a bunch of town emotional tell as scum and then play "I don't care about this game anymore"?

To be fair AtE is basically Sakura's shtick.

True?

I'm also confused by this.

@Dav - what's your point, literally both Nacho and I were claiming that emotions are part of Sakura's game, all we were doing was debating how to read them.
You either weren't reading what we were saying or really misunderstood it.
Whassup?

You can't possibly think you aren't white knighting, can you?

If you think I am in a scummy way then why in the world are you voting for Pistach - I'm the only assured scum in that situation. In fact, if I'm scum it makes Pistach more likely to be town than random.

I was going to bat at Cat's ridiculous attacks a bit, but Nacho is leaping to my defense so handily I don't need to.

Can you talk about this more?
What are Cataphant's good points against Thor?

"Somewhat-decent" may be a bad choice of words, since what is interesting to me about it is not its quality, but its proximity to the Pistachi0n read which he is willing to act on, but seems less well-formed than his Thor read.

I agree about this.
So, wanna help me vote/bus Cataphant then?

[Thor665]

1-2 minimum scum in Cataphant + Davsto + Thor665

Cataphant has a wagon.
There is at least support for a wagon on me from Cataphant.
No one except you is voting Davsto.
...why aren't you moving your vote?

I really don't understand how Nacho has the same amount of votes as Pist or Cata?
Seriously... I must be missing something for this... Someone give me the run down?

I men, Pist's reason for voting Nacho was 1237 - When countered it's because LC was more of a threat?

UNVOTE: Cata
VOTE: Pist

How does Pistach claiming that Nachoscum would want to destroy him make Pistach look scummy as opposed to paranoid town.
Even if you think the comment is stupid - I don't see why scum would be more likely to make it.
Please get back on Cat.

[Thor665]

Okay - if you think they're both potential scum I'd like to note something for you.

Cataphant hopped on Pistach.
Pistach started a Nacho counterwagon while a wagon on him and Cata already existed.

If, for some reason, both are scum - Cataphant is the useful scum who shouldn't be bussed.
Vote appropriately.

[Thor665]

I was addressing the issue with you as presented through Vedith's concept of the game.
Don't tilt at windmills.

If you want to address the actual reasons I have pressed you then, functionally, you can go and pick up my conversation that you dodged - or you can answer Nacho's thoughts from a few pages back when he pointed out a lot of the same while defending me or you can address how there really isn't a Pistach case, or you can wait around and get lynched. i am fine with any of that.

[Thor665]

And you did hop on Pistach - doing it first just means you hopped first, but in either case it makes the point that if someone thinks you're both scum they should be voting for you over Pistach.

[Thor665]

I will agree there is more traction on Pistach - I will also agree that you appear to be, from my perspective, hunting the easy lynch and avoiding your prime scumspect.
I don't get town vibes from you for that choice nor the sideline sniping and dodging towards your prime scumspect.
I don't use that metaphor - but will happily rephrase "hopping" to "voting" if it pleases you - it doesn't affect my point nor stance.

[Thor665]

reason: More traction, I'm more certain on pistachio and you're more useful either way.

1. Why are you more certain on Pistach than me - you actually appear to have a case on me even though you refuse to defend or discuss its lack of logic.
2. How am I "more useful" if I'm scum? You're saying I'm a better scum player for town to face than the fearsome Pistach? Or that I'm known for leaving good info to mine after a flip - even though I think my flip has only ever led town to do mislynches in any game I've been scum? You are just saying things that have no logic to them - it is not a good feeling.

I'm dodging so much as not seeing it necessary to talk. Nacho/me would just be an uncessary back and forth.

Yeah, I often refuse to explain my case on my top scumread whom I feel there is no traction on.[/sarcasm]

The Pistach wagon is definitely picking up votes though, you are assuredly right about that.

[Thor665]

He aria actually looks town this page. Nacho wagon can move to Pistachio or Cata now, yes?

@Vedith - do you have awareness of either of their bussing habits that suggests I am wrong?

[Thor665]

Hecatia looks town*

[Thor665]

I can't tell if that wagon was beautiful or terrible.
I lean terrible, I suppose.

[Thor665]

Cat and Farside are who I'd want to lynch off it.

[Thor665]

Cat and Farside are who I'd want to lynch off it.

Until pistachio flips scum.

That is true - think he will after that wagon?
If he does I'd probably want to flip Nacho.

why cat but not me?

Because I get occasional town vibes off you - him, not so much.

[Thor665]

Wow, I get "suck its" for "I don't really see the cse on Pistach".
Oh people.

Cat and Farside are who I'd want to lynch off it.

Reason for either?

Because they looked the most like scum sliding on without giving real reasons (Farside) or were bawling for a wagon without giving reasons while stating another wagon with more reasons and ignoring it because they said it would have been harder to push even though they were mindless pushing a wagon (Cat).

Why were you against the Pist lynch?

Because I had a town read there early and didn't like the empty wagon.

Didn't you say town there?

Yes, I said I had a town read on Pistach multiple times on Day 1.

If someone who is voting for Nacho would tell me why they're voting, then I would know.

Because he looked lackluster and buddy-buddy Day 1, and because the person who most wanted to lynch him and could clear/damn him died Night 2.

I do not dislike the Nacho push, but will note the Hecatia kill actually makes sense regardless of his alignment as scum wanted to prevent either a damning or a clear equally.
That said he has had a noted lack of paranoia about me.
I'm also odded out by his confirmed town list that is actually a probably town list though I think he did do that in our last game and was town, but he had a lot more paranoia then also as I recall.

@Nacho - give me your value call on the last sentence I wrote up there ^^^ because I am at the end of my work week and am sleep deprived and physically and mentally stressed, but I am pretty sure I'm remembering that correctly on both counts. To do a Star Wars paraphrase; I find your lack of paranoia disturbing.

[Thor665]

Considering Pist tried to push on Dav and then when no one was agreeing he switched his vote/focus straight off.
I think that was a good enough case alone.

Sure - Cat did basically the same thing though.

I'd been scum reading pist since day 1 so I don't get how I lack reason I just don't feel like repeating things that no one reads.

Methinks you doth protest too much - especially for such a late vote on him.

Do you see it now?

No.

buddy-buddy Day 1

Have you ever caught me as scum using this tell?
I remember you using it to suspect me in the Crosstown where you neighborized me, and I remember you using it to suspect me in zakk's mini normal, but I don't remember you calling me "buddy-buddy" as scum.

Okay, if we want to analyze this meta quicksand, let's start at the actual basics - what games have I played with you where I was town and you were scum?

One reads list is not a reflection of how much paranoia I have of you as a player.

Sure - but you clearly have not extroverted any paranoia towards me at all this game.

If it makes you feel better, I didn't like how you jumped to my lynch as easily as you have and you certainly aren't far off the list if either farside or Vedith happen to be town!

I "jumped" to you yesterday - the only surprise is how much support there is for you today from people making fun of my reads.
I don't follow this point at all.