Mini 1717 Alfred Hitchcock UPick [GAME OVER]

[farside22]

Vote: hecatia

I'm saying myself from your awful play early.

[farside22]

Leaning town with dav.
Thor what is your issue about dav?

[farside22]

You asked me to clarify if I town read someone after I stated I town read them.
Then you get miffed that I'm asking you to explain something that can't be made any simplier.
But if *I* got miffed at you it was scummy.

Hypocrisy?
This feels like hypocrisy.
How is it not?

Leaning town with dav.
Thor what is your issue about dav?

Lack of scumhunting and voting someone I thought was town - though not in that order.

Why do you lean town on him?

I see someone trying to understand your point and I see his frustrations about your town read. I can see why he thought it was quick and questionable.
What do you think of haca following you?

[farside22]

v/la for 3 to 5 days

[farside22]

hey, trying to catch up today.
So far I'm doing pretty good.

[farside22]

Thor didn't even explain his read on davsto before she tried to turn everything he said into something scummy. In the end, he came out looking way more town than she did.

In my mind, if you really trust another player's skill to read a person better than yourself enough to sheep them, wouldn't you want to find out what they are seeing? She hasn't interacted with him at all. Instead, she's commented peripherally about how he's town and that's why she's sheeping him.

There's zero concern from her about Thor's stance or alignment at all. That's pretty incongruent.

This was how I was feeling when I read it.

There's zero concern from her about Thor's stance or alignment at all. That's pretty incongruent.

Do you usually have concerns on people you're townreading?

On page 1 or 2.... uh... yes. First of all, at the time you "sheeped", there was no reason to be townreading Thor. It was clearly an arbitrary selection. Secondly, are you so sure about your townread on him that you would not question it at all and follow him blindly?

This ^

Considering he asked you why you think they are town, have you considered that maybe he doesn't think they're town?

That has no bearing in any way, shape, or form to my read.
Of course he either does, or will claim, to not town read them - it doesn't matter.

I see someone trying to understand your point and I see his frustrations about your town read. I can see why he thought it was quick and questionable.

You do?
The only reason he tried to understand me was I pointed out that he was unevenly applying an issue to Sakura and not to me or himself. It was only then that he seemed to give a hang for understanding me, and I don't really get frustration from him either.

I can agree it could be read a squick and questionable - would have felt better if that had been his first read though...also, not really buying into caring about a quick and questionable town read on Day 1.

Can you back up this thought of yours?
It feels very weak.

What do you think of haca following you?

That it is in line with my general expectations of her - does it seem out of line for her play in your opinion?

I am townreading Thor.

Why?
Your only reason to seems to be based off a scum read of Sakura.

Most people find my reason's weak. You won't be the first and sure as shit won't be the last.
Why were you town reading a spot on page one?
Can you say they were strong?
I just do what I feel when I read things, maybe I should stop that but I see scum stubble more when pushed then town.

[farside22]

Concrete Angels, Thor665, Davsto, and Farside22 are townreads.

Null on Concrete currently but I agree with Thor and Dav

Hey farside, what's up?

Hey not sakura
I'm looking for some unfiltered thoughts from both of you too.
Not just defending but your stands so far.

I am townreading Thor.

p-edit: re: cat's post - "weirdly aggressive". Exactly.

Also please don't do the sqwauk thing. It gives me horrible flashbacks of Dark Age.

SQUAWK

This was a bad post. I know it's technically not game related but it's like you're trying to convey an "i don't give a fuck" attitude.

I don't even see how you come to that conclusion

[farside22]

concrete is a town read

I played with him in Disney. He dicked around but that was after farside called him conftown when he really wasn't and even then this feels much more over the top than there.

VOTE: Hecatia

Most of her posts at first are filler that makes them seem like they're trying to do something, like 78.

Like there are a lot of posts but nothing good until 2/3 into the iso.

Sheeps votes on Vedith.

Not liking this.

Hopping on an easier bandwagon with little reasoning.

meh

..... you've been consistently posting elsewhere.

So... yeah. I'm very happy with my vote now.

I'm not sure I have posted properly on here any Friday evening and hardly ever on a Saturday.
You obviously looked into my games, and yet you haven't even read what I've posted in them.

You claim I posted here Thursday, when the time I posted here first was on Friday morning while at work, where I then had small amount of activity in the day on a select amount of threads threads (Average of about 2/3 posts a thread).

So I suggest if you are going to use this as an excuse, 1 - You learn my time zone and 2 - you actually learn my activity patterns.

For the rest who say that this is a valid argument, explain how and explain your scum read further.

I'm noting this so I can check this later

[farside22]

@thor; I meant sutle not stubble.
Don't ask
I'm not sure what your looking for, I'm betting you will disagree but I'll quote what I saw from Dave in my next post.

I'm betting the cat post was bella.
Lying cat was probably jingle.

I laughed at over justification comment.
You can't be serious

[farside22]

The quotes below is what I was referring to.
He is trying to explain and ask and thor doesn't respond other then to perry a point against Dav elaborates the reason.
Do I find the reason weak.
Yes.
Is it scummy
No

You have a townread on someone who has made only 7 posts? Elaborate.

You have a townread on someone who has made only 7 posts? Elaborate.

Don't you have a scumlean on someone who also has 7 posts (and had less when you stated scum lean)?
Also, I've stated a town lean on a player with one post.

Not a scum lean, they've just done one thing I'm not a fan of.
Also, you explained that, didn't you? At the end of 37

Oh, apparently it was some really clever townread I don't understand.

[farside22]

I apparently missed some quotes but hopefully that was more clear

[farside22]

far whats wrong with overjustification thing about pistachio? :\

Ohhhh sorry I misunderstood your post.

Dav: there is more then just people attacking you to discuss.
Who are your scum reads. What do you think of the wagons?

[farside22]

oh. Farside? This just looks like town farside to me!

Why?

Why have you only asked only cat about their read on me?

This was a bad post. I know it's technically not game related but it's like you're trying to convey an "i don't give a fuck" attitude.

Explain to me why scum are more likely than town to post "squawk" in response to being asked not to do it.

I'm not voting Hecatia because they said squawk, that was just something I noticed. The general tone of the interaction made it seem like Hecatia was trying to project overconfidence.

And???


While I'm thinking I somewhat wonder if we should claim characters. I have a theory and I wonder if I'm out guessing the mod or not.

[farside22]

While I'm thinking I somewhat wonder if we should claim characters. I have a theory and I wonder if I'm out guessing the mod or not.

I'm against this idea.

It doesn't help clear anyone to town because rolenames are insignificant to alignments, but it gives scum a decent guess at what people's roles are. I fail to see this benefiting town.

I have a reason, but I don't know if I said too much.
Sorry just thinking aloud

[farside22]

Sorry I've been busy.
I will be around tomorrow.

[farside22]

Hey.
Going to try and catch up today. Don't kick me out please.

[farside22]

I'm lost reading thor's post 199

Feeling meh about verideth

Concrete I don't get why you are confused.
This is what thor and I were talking about.

Most people find my reason's weak. You won't be the first and sure as shit won't be the last.
Why were you town reading a spot on page one?
Can you say they were strong?
I just do what I feel when I read things, maybe I should stop that but I see scum stubble more when pushed then town.

How does stumble make sense at all?

I like verideth thought process for 210

Noting massive just talking about heca in the game.


Anka: why do you think there is scum on verideth wagin?

No, the wagon was town driven. It was scum-sheeped.

Farside you are making me suspicious.

Asking for name claims and justifying it with vague "I have a reason"

That's nice

Im leaning town on heca currently.

unvote

Stopped at page 12

[farside22]

I assume you meant subtle because "sutle" is not a word.

Bingo.

[farside22]

I'm in a bad mood right now between home and game. If anyone wants to give the the short end of what I'm missing that would be really nice right about now.

[farside22]

Farside-

We have a sticky wagon that is on town but the people who aren't on it seem to have no issue with it other htan LC (which I admittedly didn't really notice if he had an issue or not).

There are a ton of lurkers and non-entities which probably means there will be a deadline scramble for a lynch.

Who's the wagon on?

[farside22]

I'm sorry but I'm so behind I don't think I'm going to catch up today.
Mon - Wednesday is awful for me if I can't get some help I'm going to have to replace out and I'd rather not.

[farside22]

@lying cat: I have agreed with people before and still feel null about them. 1 or 2 good post mean nothing to me.

@heca: I recall a pretty strong town read with dav, can you quote where he voted you or link what it is that bothers you?
In regards to meta, I have changed what I look at when someone changes there game play is it from a town mind set or scum mind set and question it.

[farside22]

I'm going to look at those voting heca today after work (if I have time) mostly interest in pist and massive reasons

[farside22]

Antihero: I'm so sorry but with what happened last week and how this week has been I have fallen behind in too many game. You are going to have to replace me.

[farside22]

Yeah!!! I've caught up elsewhere and I'm happy to stay.
I still need to catch up here. I told anti I'll be around Sunday to do so.

Ebwop: thor what question?

[farside22]

I don't remember.
I'll be blunt I'm going to have to reread from the start but when i get to this it should ring a bell where my thought were.

I'm lost reading thor's post 199

That is an utter Bullsmurf rejoinder - 199 is pretty damn clear and is asking you for your take on the situation.

If it *does* confuse you then ruddy point out where and how and I'll clarify.
And even if it does - it shouldn't prevent you from responding with your own take on what was going down.

This is scummy as HELL so back up, and talk to me, dodge again with a weak wimp reason like the above and I will happily death tunnel you till I secure your lynch.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p7256418

Here's a link to my "confusing" post for everyone else to note.



Yeah...real confusing and crazy worded, psycho babble language in that post...

I have no issue with your questioning; just the path it was going. the rephrasing is fine I think.

whoops. mine.

Nah - you called me out on questioning for the sake of questioning. That's a call on the method, not the path of talking about ongoing games.
You lying to my face?

No [specific game lurking is not part of Vedith's town meta]

Then I am left dumbfounded on your issue with the wagon as it stands, and find your defense of him weak and meaningless to my scum case on him.

Ignoring the fact that I've got a nice shiny wagon for one here and I'm looking forward to keeping the seat warm, who do you want me to vote?

Someone you find scummy, preferably with at least one other person agreeing with you.

I'm already scumhunting elsewhere.

You are?

And besides, there's more than one way to skin a horse.

Yes, the right way and the wrong way.
You and I both know your vote on me is a piddle pile of useless and you're not even backing it up - I'm asking you to defend that chosen course, don't hand me pablum in exchange.

[farside22]

Welcome Nachomamma8! Please catch up quickly and offer your thoughts on people other than the mod.

Farside22, welcome back! Please address my case(s) against you. For a quick lookup, just ISO me and Ctrl+F Farside and address whatever I've written there.

I'm going to be reading the game from the beginning. I only have vague recollections in regards to some reads.
I recall heca, verdith and dav all being town reads. I recall pist and massive as scum reads.
That's about the some of my memory so far.

[farside22]

Rereading and I have to say I like Concrete Angel from the start.

I have a wild guess as to why, but i'll let him answer, I do have a slight townlean on Thor however i'll sheep

Vote: Davsto

~Sakura

why?

Thor post 30 is just attacking back for the sake of attacking in my view.
I also think the semantics about 3 or 4 or 5 votes against dav was pretty weak comment.

this!!! You can stay in my town pile.

Thor this was the post again that I felt was a weak attack against dav it was also now that I caught up there where I found dav confused by your response.

Part of the discussion also is what drives me a little skeptical of Thor when he won't explain his town read when asked but complains about others town reads.
I also know that is part of my hate of hypocrites though.

not a fan of this the vote is from a hydra for one and for another some players forget there votes.

That is not even in the same fucking realm

I just felts in reread Dav was confused more then anything. I also realize the long post I was trying to explain a town read was about Concrete and not dav.
That's embarrassing.

Note: keep and eye on anka to see if he follows up with his questions. Also I need to try to find time to research Anak's meta.

I'm honestly just waiting to get with MS because he has more experience with her and notscience.

Although i'd like to think you're town for this, i don't see why scum you wouldn't want to just aggro on me, and instead decided to consult with your other head who has more experience with the more recent me.

~Sakura

This post seems off. It starts off with an "although", implying that there is going to be a negative counter to the good point, but there isn't one.

It comes across that Sakura originally wanted to make a negative point but then realised she couldn't, so she just made it a positive point and forgot to edit out the remnants.

Bahwahahahahahaha
You crazy.

I am townreading Thor.

p-edit: re: cat's post - "weirdly aggressive". Exactly.

Also please don't do the sqwauk thing. It gives me horrible flashbacks of Dark Age.

Was this because of your scum read on Heca? Or something more? Ah, never mind you liked his questions towards you.
Just ignore this.

thor: Why didn't you ask Heca about her town read on you?

Pist Why did you not say anything about Thor's post towards dav if this is true?

mmmm I like Thor's back and forth with Heca to take Thor off my scum list and move to null.

Lying cat why did you vote for Thor?

As I read though I realize Dav post less when the pressure is off, something to keep an eye on.

not really

My hydra partner blows at bookmarking things. Everyone point at him and call him names.

Also, Thor has not done anything alignment indicative yet, so I'm more than happy to let sthar8 ply the vote there for now.

Sakura is definitely worth the suspicion, which makes me like cat. The shift onto ved does not.

ETL has shown the minor towntells I'd expect from town her this early, but not enough to make that read solid.

Davsto can be put to fire. I'd pay to see that.

This is all pretty vague.

Also - could you address my question to you about Hepasljdaso's playstyle? You seem to have dropped that, unless the last line is about it.

The last game I played with Sakura was the disney game. He was in a hydra and he had diarrhea of the mouth and people were scum reading him and I stepped in and said it was normal. Turned out he was scum that game. So meta and hydra with sakura is pretty null in my book.

What does scum Farside look like? If you haven't seen her as scum, what would you imagine she looks like?

That is what I imagine.

not a fan of massive's vote or first post here
Very little info about players in the game.

Dav Why did you wait to vote for Heca?

Stopped on page 10.

Taking a break but will be back today.

[farside22]

UNVOTE: Davsto
VOTE: Cataphant

Most likely the scum on the Vedith wagon. It's Thor if not him.

How did you reach this conclusion?

No, the wagon was town driven. It was scum-sheeped.

What is your read on vedith?

I agree with this

Farside you are making me suspicious.

Asking for name claims and justifying it with vague "I have a reason"

Why?

yeah I may actually lean town on anka. Not married to it but feeling it.



Leaning town with verdith so far.

I like this attack from wing

Don't like Bulge entrance.

meh

I feel a slight vomit in my mouth at the vote from Heca to CA.

I feel like pist is just posting comment for the sake of posting (gut), plus added I'm not seeing her talk about her scum reads.

And any town feeling I had on Dav is pretty much gone with his useless post popping up with nothing new to add.

I am moving Pistach to a town read.

Dav remains a scum read.
So does Vedith.
Concrete is trying to become one, trying very hard.

Why is Pist a town read?

What do you think about Vedith and Concrete Angels?

Quoting this so that I remember to come around to it when I give the game a proper read through. Kinda been neglecting this one a tad sorry.

Yeah I totally believe the catch up and nothing to add post.

What, was me saying "farside town (gut)" not good enough for you?

Because kissing my ass does nothing for me.

this is accurate about me.
Tell me why massive is a town read.

Farside what are your thoughts about massive?

Leaning scum.
Last time he was cute with me I bought into it and he was scum that game.

Im leaning town on heca currently.

Why?

Mostly because I can see more thought process coming from the pair about their reads then most others.....like you for example.

I really don't see LC pushing a case or a wagon on the player they are scum reading

Farside, would you agree with Cat's meta there? Anyone else who knows Farside well?

yeah I tend to be more aggressive as scum because I am aggressive as town to a certain extent. There is a difference but I'm not sharing how to tell.

meh

I'm starting to scum-read farside, I think she's being dodgier and less strong than usual.

That's nice. It was called RL issues and lack on concentration.

Meh.

Read through. Kinda finding it hard to get reads at the moment, sorry. Still liking the Hecatia vote but barely.

I mean, I'm usually pretty mediocre at this but I've usually caught

something

half-decent at this point. Considering a full from-start read through tomorrow because it's Saturday then~

Hi I'm going to keep calling Heca scum while doing nothing else in the game.
DIE.

Sorry I feel my mind drifting but Im currently at page 18 right now.

So far scum reads are:

Dav
Pist

Leaning scum:
massive
LC

[farside22]

Probably because before that I didn't feel the need to vote before. The post I voted in would have been just after I got home from school so my mindset was probably different.

Last I checked you were scum reading the pair soooooooooo it seems you were just not voting and then saw others vote and joined it.
Reads pretty weak.

farside: Why are you time warping?

~Sakura

If you are asking about my reads from the start it was explained I needed to read from the start. I think it is helping me. I have only 12 pages left.

[farside22]

Farside

, why were you reading Thor as town in your Post 168? You list a bunch of problems you have with his early posts in your Post 771 but all of these incidents happened before you originally called him town.

Lying Cat

,

Massive

and

Thor

, can you post a list of your reads please? I'd also like both (Lying Cat, Thor) of your thoughts on Farside's catch up posts.

Pistachi0n

, please address my Post 751.

---

You know what, fuck it, come
lynch me i don't care anymore,

it'll be fun to see your face

for mislynching Town Sakura, when you've never done that mistake before.

This reads like you are townreading Nacho. But you aren't based on your other posts. Explain.

@Lying Cat: Your argument that farside agreed with ETL twice and thus should be town reading ETL is a weak one.

I've made this same argument. Why didn't you ask me about it?

PEdit: How about Concrete's case on Pistach which I literally mentioned in that goddamn post?

As far as I know, I'm the only one who's made a "case" on Pistachi0n. What is this "case" you are talking about? Quote it.

That comes from my belief that players tend to scumread people who scumread them.

I view this as weak, juvenile play. If a player is unable to see town motivation in attacks on them, they have a long way to go to improve as a player.

It seems like most people in this thread are townreading Vedith based on his attack on Ank.

Not me. There's something else besides his attack on Ank that is a ridiculously strong towntell.

---

Despite wanting elaboration on his thought processes, I'm reading Nacho as town. The pool of non-townreads I want more content from are: Pistachi0n, Massive, Lying Cat, Thor, and Cataphant. I'm going to go with Massive just because how absurdly underwhelmed I'm getting based on the lack of content. Pistachi0n is at least being batshit crazy by continuing to insist that Davsto is scum.

VOTE: Massive

I just recall his post towards others were trying to figure things out. His initial agression rubbed me wrong but he seemed to be more probing and oppionated as the game went on.

I noticed when I was reading the most current post dav claimed??

I won't have time to catch up today but tomorrow looks better.

[farside22]

Ahhhhh.
I had a few things come up.
I'm going to smash through what I can right now.

[farside22]

3 days till deadline.
Thank god.
I can't get in here to catch up tonight but tomorrow I'm free with no kid and no work to do it.

[farside22]

sigh
cries
sigh again

Pumps self up to read.

anak is probably town. He reads pretty much what I know of him (no I'm not sharing meta tells this game)

one vote is one vote this is really a nonsense argument to have.

this is only just weak points

We have a winner! Wasn't ducking you Thor I just tried reading from where I was on that page because of time issues.
I agree with you about LC.

FYI he plays this way all the time now That is not the way to figure out Anka's alignment.

I swear you avoided the wagon too Someone remind me didn't Pist not vote Verdith? If not what's the fucking point of calling anka out for it?

I'm totally not voting heca this game.

Sure you can. It still raised an eyebrow, and was still worth noting. Would you mind telling me why you thought Thor and Dav were town?

@farside: Is Cataphants assertion that they can meta read you true or false?

My catch up clearly put my thoughts in play. Both Bella and Hippy have played with me in a scum team and when we are both town. I think Bella would know me better then Hippy to be fair.
Hippy still gets it wrong.

something hinky with that ank flashwagon.

I endorse this product and/or service.

Im totally not voting CA this game.

@Lying Cat - good plan, double down on the useless and try to pass it off as strategy.

@Pistach - how has a edits wagon been a thing in the last 72 hours? I don't think it has been a thing since about 24 after it first appeared, and why is this reaction about it only showing up now?

I am fascinated that people thing the least openly explained vote on Ank - and one that existed prior to a wagon rush - is the scum midst somehow. I look forward to this case being explored deeper. You all, clearly, have me dead to rights.

Why are you not pressure LC with a vote?

meh, sounds butt hurt

wingpost 556



I'll taking making up theories for 100 Alex

That's just dumb.
I'm sorry but not just no, fuck no.

In my opinion when Heca was getting attacked all I reads was defensiveness from the post. That doesn't help me figure out them as players so I asked mostly because it seemed like the same discussion going on over and over at the time.

I sometime tunnel. I'm working on that. I tend to be stubborn but in response to your links I admitted already my head hasn't been in the game. I'm fixing that.

in regards to this
I make bad cases. Most people ignore my post so when someone says something about how I feel I pretty much just say this these days. Mostly when I'm behind.
Also im not sure how long you have played mafia. So this is in no way meaning to be snarky.
Is your experience in scum hunting typically associative?

I don't see how your response debunks what he said at all.

Wins!

Break time.

Computer is acting weird





[

[farside22]

Ca and heca town

LC and pist scummy.

Doing nothing and on my scumdar.
Massive

[farside22]

Are you null on the others?

Leaning town

Anka
Thor
Wing


I read dav was a pr but I haven't got there.
He's a scum lean.

[farside22]

VOTE: Pistachio

[farside22]

I think we should consider massive for town.

VOTE: pistachio

Why?

[farside22]

logical reasoning from sakura?

From what I understood it's not confirmed town.
We know he was targetted.
But Sakura said if he shot night 1 he maybe still guilty.

Maybe I misunderstood the role??

I'm also looking at Nacho as scum

[farside22]

So out of my scum reads of Cataphant, Pistachio and Ank two are voting for the others.

Yeah I can see a bussing technique going on here.

Why anka?

[farside22]

If I were to make an assumption on who scum was if they chose a Wingback kill for suspect reasons, I'd lean Cataphant or Concrete Angels.

No way do I see CA as scum. I was pretty null with cats. I like bella when she isn't in a hydra and I can't read hippy he gets so lazy sometimes.

[farside22]

Because of his day 1. I still don't like the way he just tried to buddy around and agree any where. Most people seem to have ignored that part though.

I don't remember seeing that. I see him agreeing with others which is null.
Where did he buddy?

[farside22]

Reason I'd assume those two going by the nightkill target is this...

Absolutely not. You need a lesson in reading comprehension. I asked you questions aimed at getting you to support your arguments. No where did I say they did or didn't do anything, nor did I say that I thought they did.

The way you phrased your questions looked like you were asking me to prove a negative.

This is also an error on your part - why are you unable to understand what I said there?

You said that whether or not I agree with their read on me was irrelevant. That wasn't my point. I said that their read of me looked fake.

Let me rephrase - You said they had no reads, then said they had a read. You saying they are right or wrong - that is irrelevant to the fact that the read exists, which was what I was getting at. You made a statement, I asked you to support it, and when you didn't do so satisfactorily, I asked you to explain further.

What I said was that they had no strong reads elsewhere besides Thor and they spent 90% of their time tunneling Thor instead of developing reads elsewhere. When asked for a readslist, they listed out a bunch of reads of which I felt that their read on me looked fake.

Not logging across, anti can deal with it. Go over wing and Thor with a fine toothed comb. Sakura's result tonight is trustworthy. JK, aim for scum. If you hit the ninja you're golden.

Not super disappointed about being the lynch, tbh. It was gonna be a struggle to keep my head in the game and I'm probably taking a break from mafia for a while, so...

And there's a clear reason I didnt full claim. I didn't want the scum to know who was the most valuable no target. Confirmable in less than 1 phase should be enough

Okay, so I was wrong on Lying Cat.

Cataphant is almost certainly scum. After that, I'd look at ETL.

I got where you were coming from. I'm a type that doesn't always look at what people say when they are killed.
There is so much WIFOM and I have been framed by it in the past.


However, I've just realised it could have been for his claim. I'm just gonna come out of my pitiful attempt at NKA with a null result. Worth a try.

I don't remember seeing that. I see him agreeing with others which is null.
Where did he buddy?

In the early game. When he started to defend me with nothing to go on.
I mean, I've made a few posts over him in day 1.

What's your views on his votes, and his follow up on those votes?

That isn't buddying. If you looked he was talking about the case on you. He thought it was crap (basically) because all it was based on was you not posting in the game.

I find his votes were pretty fluid. I don't know if Anka recalls us playing scum together but I recall he tends to hold his votes more on one player as scum and tunnel.
Plus Anka buddies way more as scum.

[farside22]

My comment to Dav is in his post.

I state:

I got where you were coming from. I'm a type that doesn't always look at what people say when they are killed.
There is so much WIFOM and I have been framed by it in the past.

[farside22]

I don't know if Anka recalls us playing scum together

Wait, what? Were you on an alt?

No

[farside22]

I like cata's recent post. Don't agree with the Nacho read but that was hippy then I would say leaning town and happy with my vote on Pist

[farside22]

Nacho is very good and has snowed me in the past. I didn't like his initial posting when he first started responding and my previous analysis led me to think that his slot was scum. His later posting looked much better, but again, he's good at that, so I don't want to "clear" him on that alone. He's definitely in the suspect pool.

The thing with Thor is that he looks like he's doing his town things, but I'm not really satisfied with a lot of it. I feel like he keeps pushing me off and avoiding answering questions or discussing things, which isn't something I've experienced with him when he was town. It really bothers me. My gut says he's town but my brain is going whoa hey now.

Have you played with Thor as scum? I just get the impression that he's not caring over the game so much...
And up to this post, I really think that Nacho is strong town. I like his approach to people and I actually really liked his initial posting, he was focused and thorough.

You need to explain that Nacho town read to me. I don't see it.
Troll or not, play or not it is all null with him

[farside22]

You need to explain that Nacho town read to me. I don't see it.
Troll or not, play or not it is all null with him

Have you never played a game with Nacho where you felt comfortable with his alignment one way or the other? Aside from knowing it as scum, of course.

Rarely.
That says a lot.

I think I been duped more times then I can count.

[farside22]

it's already obvious there is bussing going on here somewhere. if pist is scum so is cat.

Nacho is being really quiet about this and that is where I'm still leaning on as far as bussing goes.

[farside22]

Have you? Is it easy to tell?

That's an interesting defense of farside there, which means we're getting somewhere. The question wasn't about whether Nacho is an able scum player (he is) but to try and get a bead on how earnest farside's non-read was.

I think I been duped more times then I can count.

This is a different answer than "rarely." "Rarely" says "I never have an idea what Nacho is, town or scum." This says "I usually have an idea what Nacho is, but then I turn out to be wrong." This doesn't say "it's all null with him," which is what your earlier post said.

I'm saying that he plays whatever way he wants is null.
It isn't alignment inductive.

Being duped was because I believed his different plays meant something before.

[farside22]

Okay, step one: can someone quote for me their points on Pistachi0n?

Besides not really scum hunting. Asking pointless questions and just actively lurking.

No I'm thinking that's all I got.

[farside22]

Besides not really scum hunting. Asking pointless questions and just actively lurking.

I can see with a squint not thinking he's scumhunting well and that his questions are pointless. I disagree and consider it more of a playstyle thing, but I can see where you're coming from there.
How are you justifying active lurk on him though?
Like, even just glancing at what he's posted this phase I do not even see that remotely supported as a concept. Clarify?

Actively lurking.
Basically posting stuff but nothing really relevant.
In my view the post about Nacho is the only thing I've seen from her that wasn't socially akward or just noise

[farside22]

So you do agree that, at least starting today Pistach has leveled a case against someone, pressured them (these two points regardless of the elative quality you apply to said case and pressure), and isn't actively lurking?
So, is it last Day Phase they were active lurking?

One post does not wipe that all away.
And that is exactly what it was, one post

[farside22]

I disagree with the application of 'active lurk' to the entirety of Day 2 from Pistach.

You are claiming active lurk on Day 1?

Why does getting ahold of your feelings here feel like wrestling with wet cookie dough?

Maybe because I feel like it's obvious and I don't see your pov.
Is Pist engaging others day 2?
Not really
Is she really pushing her points any more day 2 then she did day 1?
No

Are you town reading her?

[farside22]

Is Pist engaging others day 2?
Not really

I see Pist both stating a scumread and engaging people about her scumread.
So, I would actually say - yes.
Even by you saying "not really" you are accepting that *something* is happening, just apparently not to a standard you are happy with...but, easily a vast swathe of the game is being more active lurk than that this phase, so what the hell?

Is she really pushing her points any more day 2 then she did day 1?
No

Does she push her points more when town than when scum?
Because if not - this is a meaningless point, and also, if she's pushing her points as much now as on Day 1 then i still don't get the active lurk claim.

Are you town reading her?

Yes.

You act like this is new.
Serious question but what is your experience when you see players that flip scum?

This isn't a meta thing. This is what I see over and over and over again and it just makes me look at players like really? You don't see this in every game?
A play that just pushes mild points and lurkers most of the game while others are trying to figure the game out.
A player that makes a few weak points and then disappears when a real conversation is going on.
I see it so much and so often I go well there is scum.
And I get this same thing of well this person here reads town so I'm sticking with it.
All the while I just glare at the computer screen and ask myself 10 times over are people dumb or scum.

[farside22]

I feel like I just got side stepped by thor.
I'm not amused.

[farside22]

Also I've probably miss lynch hippy for playing like shit before.
You want to give me Pist play style I'll look it over.

[farside22]

So you're making value calls on her play with zero Pistach experience?

And, at the same time, expressing belief that I might be dumb for not seeing what you're seeing...

Why are you cool with Cataphant?

I'm making a call on what I see from playing these games.
Didn't call you dumb at all.
Because at least I see something from cata this game.
Where the fuck is Nacho? Do you care?
Where is Pist?
Where is massive?
Where is verdith's?

You going to say everyone one of those players is town except cata then you can go fly a kite.

[farside22]

Just saying that what I see as far as those figuring the game out and those who aren't

[farside22]

You've played plenty with me before. This is nothing different than my normal amount of play. Why are you feigning frustration at it now?

Not feigned in the least.
More just disappointed with the game state as a whole

[farside22]

Don't mind me much. I'm coming off some bad games lately that make me really just ready to take time away.

[farside22]

holy crap where did that come from.

vote: Nacho

[farside22]

I literally have no idea what to do, i've been kinda disinterested lately and have been skimming most posts this game.

~Sakura

This is me in a nutshell.

[farside22]

I literally have no idea what to do, i've been kinda disinterested lately and have been skimming most posts this game.

~Sakura

This is me in a nutshell.

The answer to all of your problems is to vote Cataphant or explain why you don't want to.

Because I'm stubborn.

Also I don't get the scum read on them

[farside22]

can we please lynch pistachio now

Talk to Thor he thinks Pist is town for some reason.

[farside22]

does it not bother you that thor essentially ignores pistachio until he's called on it, nacho?

It seems like Thor initially townread Pistach for reasons I don't remember. Then he was lukewarm on the lot. Then he pushed a scumread over a lukewarm read. And then Pistach wagon rose up because it was the LC wagon was Pistach's fault and because Pistach wasn't scumhunting and then Thor argued against both of these points.

I don't view this as an unreasonable partner interaction but I also don't think it looks particularly bad regardless of Pistach's alignment.

I'm just noting this because it reminded I saw something in Pist recent post that bothered me and I need to recheck if I was going crazy

[farside22]

I need to work on skimming better or reading when things happen.
I thought pist was calling cata scummy in one of her post and it turns out it was just a review of the player.

That said pist comments really didn't sway me away from scum reading her. I voted Nacho most because he is a scum read. I'm more happy with my pist scum read over nacho.

vote: pistachi0n

[farside22]

Vedith, why were you scumreading Cataphant in the first place?

I thought verdith was the first to make a case on Cataphant.

Nacho: What are you expecting from hippy? I have seen him do nothing before and be disappointed when he flips town. I also have seen him work hard as town.
I would like this to be more then meta issues.

[farside22]

I'm getting nervous about ETL.
Ever since he's been on his own I see none of the push and drive I saw from day 1.
I wonder if his hydra buddy was posting more from his hydra partner

[farside22]

Did pist ever claim?

[farside22]

VOTE: Thor

[farside22]

I thought Nacho was checked by heca night 1

[farside22]

I lol'ed.
I think the mod is bored.

Okay so massive should post too in here since he was checked.

[farside22]

I lol'ed.
I think the mod is bored.

Okay so massive should post too in here since he was checked.

What are you looking for them to add?

Just where his thought are after the flip.

Your posting today just reminded me of this

[farside22]

{Massive, hiplop, Davesto} - confirmed town

{Concrete Angels} - probably town

{Vedith, Thor, farside, Ankamius} - Remaining

Of the last group, I think Vedith/farside are the most likely. The N1 kill doesn't really make sense coming from Thor and Ankamius has the strongest play individually of the group. Vedith had decent interactions with Pistach yesterday while farside really doesn't have a whole lot going for her right now, so that's where I want to start.

Vote: Farside22

How is hippy confirmed town.

[farside22]

B.c I'm flawless duh

Your cute and all but confirmed town seems odd statement to make especially since Nacho was on your wagon.

Final Vote Count of Day 2

Cataphant - 3 (Thor665, Nachomamma8, pistachi0n)
Davsto - 1 (Ankamius)

pistachi0n - 6 (Cataphant, EspeciallyTheLies, Davsto, Vedith, farside22, Hecatia Lapislazuli)

Not Voting: massive

6 to lynch

Nacho's comments about lack of interaction with pist is pretty hypocritical considering he didn't interact either.

[farside22]

I'd been scum reading pist since day 1 so I don't get how I lack reason I just don't feel like repeating things that no one reads.

[farside22]

I'd been scum reading pist since day 1 so I don't get how I lack reason I just don't feel like repeating things that no one reads.

There's a difference between repeating and actually pushing your views on someone/questioning them.

Saying that you was reading Pist day 1 as scum doesn't mean too much since you were not in the game properly that day.

Yeah, it wasn't really my best.
I'll work better today on my scum reads.

Nacho's comments about lack of interaction with pist is pretty hypocritical considering he didn't interact either.

My comments about the lack of interaction with pist didn't exist. When I said you haven't done much of anything, I mean exactly that.

because nacho didn't want to vote for his partner.

This point isn't great!

Part of the reason I'm suspicious of Nacho is that I've just generally found him scummy.

This point is worse!

Wow, I get "suck its" for "I don't really see the cse on Pistach".
Oh people.

Do you see it now?

You haven't exactly been doing anything either.
Also I don't believe your light claim there.

[farside22]

Did you... seriously... just steal that.... from like 20 seconds ago..

Technically no.

[farside22]

It's sad, when a mother has to speak the words that condemn her own son. But I couldn't allow them to believe that I would commit murder. They'll put him away now, as I should have years ago. He was always bad, and in the end he intended to tell them I killed those girls and that man... as if I could do anything but just sit and stare, like one of his stuffed birds. They know I can't move a finger, and I won't. I'll just sit here and be quiet, just in case they do... suspect me. They're probably watching me. Well, let them. Let them see what kind of a person I am. I'm not even going to swat that fly. I hope they are watching... they'll see. They'll see and they'll know, and they'll say, "Why, she wouldn't even harm a fly..."

Psycho

By far my favorite pic of Norman Bates.
So creepy and perfect. Great, great actor.

[farside22]

Considering Pist tried to push on Dav and then when no one was agreeing he switched his vote/focus straight off.
I think that was a good enough case alone.

Sure - Cat did basically the same thing though.

I'd been scum reading pist since day 1 so I don't get how I lack reason I just don't feel like repeating things that no one reads.

Methinks you doth protest too much - especially for such a late vote on him.

Do you see it now?

No.

buddy-buddy Day 1

Have you ever caught me as scum using this tell?
I remember you using it to suspect me in the Crosstown where you neighborized me, and I remember you using it to suspect me in zakk's mini normal, but I don't remember you calling me "buddy-buddy" as scum.

Okay, if we want to analyze this meta quicksand, let's start at the actual basics - what games have I played with you where I was town and you were scum?

One reads list is not a reflection of how much paranoia I have of you as a player.

Sure - but you clearly have not extroverted any paranoia towards me at all this game.

If it makes you feel better, I didn't like how you jumped to my lynch as easily as you have and you certainly aren't far off the list if either farside or Vedith happen to be town!

I "jumped" to you yesterday - the only surprise is how much support there is for you today from people making fun of my reads.
I don't follow this point at all.

VOTE: Pistachio

I need to work on skimming better or reading when things happen.
I thought pist was calling cata scummy in one of her post and it turns out it was just a review of the player.

That said pist comments really didn't sway me away from scum reading her. I voted Nacho most because he is a scum read. I'm more happy with my pist scum read over nacho.

vote: pistachi0n

No need to lie about my vote there thor.
There is wonderful search function. I voted for pist at the start and then moved to nacho and back to pist at the end.
Saying my vote was late is a stretch just to make yourself look better there.

[farside22]

There is wonderful search function. I voted for pist at the start and then moved to nacho and back to pist at the end.
Saying my vote was late is a stretch just to make yourself look better there.

So your slide onto Nacho and then back onto Pist gives you both reason and clear scum read there?
No, it does neither.
Hiplop also lacked reason, but he had clear intent - you did not, and do not.

What do you think is the "lie" there?

I didn't lack reason.
Your whole argument back was meta in regards to pist, which means Jack.
I also had points on Nacho during the game.

Saying I lacked reason is false.
Saying I switched back with no reason is false.

[farside22]

My argument was that your case was based on a playstyle without being aware of Pist's playstyle or caring about it.
That is a valid issue - and does show the emptiness of your case.

Saying you lacked reason is neither true or false, it is an opinion, but it is one I have held for a while and defended with enough validity to support my statement.
And, yes, I think you did just switch back with no reason (functionally your reason was, at best "yay, more votes on this scumspect as opposed to other one" except you're not claiming that now and trying to play up some deeper design, which looks skeevy to me) when I think your initial push was weak and the Nacho leap potentially opportunistic.

You were making points on hippy with the same thought process's so....?

My scum read didn't magically change, I even explained myself on why I switched off of pist.
I also made points on Nacho, switching between 2 scum reads is normal.
Your making this about a vote on 2 players I was scum reading at the time.
If a wagon is going on one I'll vote there, if players aren't going to listen or argue about my reads and I see a wagon on my other scum read I'll vote there.

[farside22]

Also I didn't really think it was necessary to say all that as in my view it was pretty clear day 2 what I did and why.

[farside22]

I'm about to put Nacho on L-1 out of boredom.

Why?
I saw him saying his role confirmed hippy but no one else seems to say anything and most are voting him.

[farside22]

I can understand that being reasons that don't point to Nacho being scum, but they don't really clear him. Do you think there are any associations with pistachio to players currently alive? If so, who? Why? What do you make of the wagons yesterday?

Yeah, I think it's Thor. I've already said this.
I feel that Farside was resisting slightly too.
Given that Cata pushed hard, I've seen scum do this, and I haven't seen town attitude so far apart from lynching scum.

With the wagons, I would have gone with either as both were my top reads.

Okay - if you think they're both potential scum I'd like to note something for you.

Cataphant hopped on Pistach.
Pistach started a Nacho counterwagon while a wagon on him and Cata already existed.

If, for some reason, both are scum - Cataphant is the useful scum who shouldn't be bussed.
Vote appropriately.

This is the post that pinged me from Thor. I really didn't like this one.
Considering that he is now off the Cata idea after giving this theory.

Something she said at the start of today. It's not strong enough to convince anyone else but it's strong enough to convince me without a doubt.

Can you point this out or no?

I'm voting Thor.
You think we are scum together is hysterical bad.
Senseless, and I can't even began to imagine where that read even comes from.

[farside22]

And before it's questioned, expected to be mislynched by now, so wanted to get confirmed town reads out there before I died. Explaining the exact nature of my knowledge doesn't make me any more town but gives scum information they shouldn't have, stating my role name gives you absolutely no explanation, but staying silent means that the knowledge is lost.

This makes no sense.
You should know by now that once a flip occurs your role is known.
Why would you think with-holding info and probably lynched helps town?

This is really simple your lying about your claim and trying to earn points by not being part of the pist wagon
Or you got info.

I'm obviously seeing more of the first here.

[farside22]

Nacho: I want you to explain why the wing kill is odd to you when wing stat d the following day 1?

I was considering whether or not to claim but I suspect the LC votes might trail off and I don't have time to check in tonight.

I will partially claim.

I am not a VT.

With my role, Hecatia's, and Davsto's, it is very unlikely LC has some sort of "confirmable" role. Their behavior points heavily to scum. I don't buy their soft-claim. They better get lynched today.

Also my brain finally woke up and noted wing was a flavor cop and was able to check if someone fired a weapon.
There is no way there is anything Nacho can claim I would believe as confirming anyone.

Vote: Nacho

[farside22]

can you hang on a damn minute farside.

Fine.

Unvote

This better be worth it

[farside22]

WHAT IS THE FUCKING HOLD UP NACHO YOU SCUMMY STALLIN ASS

He needs to figure out how to explain the flavor cop that is dead and heca's flip to explain his confirmed town via my ability crap.

Just saying

[farside22]

no you like punishment too much.

/takes off ball gag

...

whatever would make you think that? i have no idea what you're talking about...

I feel better

[farside22]

Nacho: I want you to explain why the wing kill is odd to you when wing stat d the following day 1?

Davesto and Hecatia outed as specific PRs yesterday; both seem like scarier targets than "unspecified PR".

ETL, I didn't do anything last night.

Vote: Nacho

[farside22]

How is hippy confirmed town.

My role.

Nacho: I want you to explain why the wing kill is odd to you when wing stat d the following day 1?

Davesto and Hecatia outed as specific PRs yesterday; both seem like scarier targets than "unspecified PR".

ETL, I didn't do anything last night.

Should I put in here that cata was a scum read for Nacho day 1?

Yeah, there you go.

[farside22]

I'm not changing my Nacho vote. I see no reason to do so.
Nothing he said even explains his claim.
No I'm not going to believe a fake fucking gambit either.

[farside22]

I'm not changing my Nacho vote. I see no reason to do so.
Nothing he said even explains his claim.
No I'm not going to believe a fake fucking gambit either.

That's fine. What are your other reads?

Thor

[farside22]

That's a player.

What are your other readS

Null:
Massive
Verdith

Scum:
Nacho
Thor

any thoughts about farside or vedith, hippy?

i believe i have this game all but solved, but it really hinges on getting the last bit of PoE correct.

Im just now looking back, but I could definitely see farside scum. I know I was feeling the opposite yesterday but you're right, PoE is starting to set in

I'm not scum.

Let me start where I was on day 1.
I was thinking of character claiming because as I said my role said there was a character in the game that could commute and I wondered if the player was scum because I couldn't do it if that player did it.
When that went down like a lead balloon I just moved on trying to get a different prospective of the game.
Day 2 I voted pist because she was my strongest scum read and I didn't see her pushing anything.
This game day I feel like I finally woke up seeing nacho's "claim" and seeing 2 investigative roles flip.
Things are just finally coming together.

[farside22]

i dont fucking know and i would like my fucking fellow players to please get in here and help me. this is frustrating.

What do you want to talk about.
You want to explain your verdith read?

[farside22]

vedith read is PoE, but his ISO is townier than yours, farside.

I have a reason but you won't like why it's subpar

[farside22]

Okay

[farside22]

I was thinking of character claiming because as I said my role said there was a character in the game that could commute and I wondered if the player was scum because I couldn't do it if that player did it.

You're going to have to give us details because now that we know that the "other commuter" is Norman, it lines up that you're Mother and that's not a good thing.

I townread Massive and even so I'm surprised with the strength of support he's getting now.

As normally I'm a prime candidate for a mislynch around D2-3, I'm just as surprised as you are. For whatever reason, scum have been afraid of pushing me ... or possibly happy to leave me be? But that's not something to really dig into today.

Why, it's you pick?
Characters mean nothing.

Nacho: I'm confused by your claim. Your modified backup but didn't do anything to get the info on hoot?
Is that right?

[farside22]

@Massive - I was kind of with you on the idea of Mother = bad, but then I went and reread Pistach's flip.
How is Mother necessarily bad exactly?

The two commutes are complementary and therefore have to be the same team -- otherwise if Mother / Norma was town, why wouldn't she just commute herself every night? No, the wording of the ability makes it sound much more like the two can coordinate the ability.

I have something more then commute.
I didn't use it hopping I'd be targetted.
Alas no one has done that so far.

[farside22]

Also FTR I wondered if Norman was scum but claiming characters made sense to me because if I was town reading the player I was going to try and subtly let them know who I was.

[farside22]

I'm just reminding myself I need to go back and see if Nacho awnser my questions.

[farside22]

I was thinking of character claiming because as I said my role said there was a character in the game that could commute and I wondered if the player was scum because I couldn't do it if that player did it.

You're going to have to give us details because now that we know that the "other commuter" is Norman, it lines up that you're Mother and that's not a good thing.

I townread Massive and even so I'm surprised with the strength of support he's getting now.

As normally I'm a prime candidate for a mislynch around D2-3, I'm just as surprised as you are. For whatever reason, scum have been afraid of pushing me ... or possibly happy to leave me be? But that's not something to really dig into today.

Why, it's you pick?
Characters mean nothing.

Nacho: I'm confused by your claim. Your modified backup but didn't do anything to get the info on hoot?
Is that right?

Yep.

Okay can someone explain why this makes sense and isn't dead?

[farside22]

N2 I neighborized Thor for the same reason I did massive - think he's scum and would be a difficult lynch to achieve. I told him in the PT exactly what my role/ability was and that I plan to shoot him tonight.

Okay, so if Thor isn't killed tonight then we lynch you tomorrow.
I'm going to read up now but I assume both Massive and Thor have confirmed that they are neighbors with you.

UNVOTE: Thor
VOTE: Farside

Why are you ignoring nacho's claim and why isn't fishy to you?

The before a flip association is awful too.
Is that common for you?

[farside22]

Can you point me to his claim?

I'm a modified backup; I can use it before a lynch and I will backup the lynched player before they die. My information on hip-hop is not related to this; I said that it was mine in order to absorb a nightkill, but hiplop and massive are still town regardless.

Add that he didn't go anywhere and he knows that hippy is town because of his role.

[farside22]

I feel like my I had to smack my head on the desk to feel better after reading this back and forth between verdith and etl

[farside22]

Can you point me to his claim?

I'm a modified backup; I can use it before a lynch and I will backup the lynched player before they die. My information on hip-hop is not related to this; I said that it was mine in order to absorb a nightkill, but hiplop and massive are still town regardless.

Add that he didn't go anywhere and he knows that hippy is town because of his role.

Farside, are you scum?

No.

Is there really a point to the question or are you going to explain why I'm wrong or what I"m missing with what you quote.

[farside22]

3 kills into tomorrow is dangerous unless we're sure.

I think a no lynch might actually make sense

[farside22]

etl's kill + lynch + factional night kill?

Oh I thought you meant during the night.

[farside22]

yea. thats why I think no lynch here actually makes sense.

usually rigourously oppose them but this is exception

me too.

Can you tell me one thing because I'm really confused.
Why does nacho's claim make sense to you?
Or does it make sense?

[farside22]

Can you point me to his claim?

I'm a modified backup; I can use it before a lynch and I will backup the lynched player before they die. My information on hip-hop is not related to this; I said that it was mine in order to absorb a nightkill, but hiplop and massive are still town regardless.

Add that he didn't go anywhere and he knows that hippy is town because of his role.

Farside, are you scum?

No.

Is there really a point to the question or are you going to explain why I'm wrong or what I"m missing with what you quote.

Your response to Nacho doesn't make sense and I'm getting scum-push vibes from the way you're going about it.

I think he is lying scum.
I don't see how what he said makes any sense at all.

[farside22]

I don't understand your case. Nacho said his Hiplop read had nothing to do with his role.

He was scum reading hippy day 2.

He said he knew hippy was town due to his role.
He said he went nowhere.

Dear lord do I need to draw a map here?

[farside22]

yea. thats why I think no lynch here actually makes sense.

usually rigourously oppose them but this is exception

me too.

Can you tell me one thing because I'm really confused.
Why does nacho's claim make sense to you?
Or does it make sense?

im scared im wrong about nacho.

still inkling that hes scum, but ya

Okay so some math notes while people ponder all this.

there are 9 players left
no lynch and ETL kills thor, scum kill
that leave 7 players left.
Thor scum means 1/6 in favor of town.
Thor town means 2/5 in favor of town.
Lynch nacho
scum nacho means with thor scum
Town win
Thor town 1/5
Both town 2/4

I'm thinking odds do favor a no lynch looking at the break down.
Let me know if something is wrong with my numbers.

[farside22]

I don't understand your case. Nacho said his Hiplop read had nothing to do with his role.

He was scum reading hippy day 2.

He said he knew hippy was town due to his role.
He said he went nowhere.

Dear lord do I need to draw a map here?

Did you forget the post where he said he said that it was his role to absorb a nightkill?

uhhhh let me rephrase this so that it makes any sense whatsoever.

Did you forget the post where he said that the information was because of his role so that he could absorb a nightkill?

How does that make sense?

[farside22]

My information on hip-hop is not related to this

I said that it was mine in order to absorb a nightkill

Ummmmmm someone died n2 so does that mean the absorbing is night 3?

Or your telling me you believe that Nacho gets info and becomes a lightning rod in one night.
Because if that's what you tell me makes a ton of sense I'm going to look at you like your nuts.

[farside22]

Alright so if Nacho doesn't die and Thor and some else dies Nacho is confirmed lying scum.

I'm good with those odds.

Vote: no lynch

[farside22]

Alright so if Nacho doesn't die and Thor and some else dies Nacho is confirmed lying scum.

this is faulty logic, considering that nacho's town flip would confirm hiplop, who is just as likely a target if actually conftown. understand what i'm saying? i am also a likely target. i don't like your sudden conclusions that seem to come out of nowhere with logic holes. just so you know.

I thought nacho was saying he absorbed a night kill.
I assumed lightening rod that takes the shot.
Am I wrong?

[farside22]

My information on hip-hop is not related to this

I said that it was mine in order to absorb a nightkill

Ummmmmm someone died n2 so does that mean the absorbing is night 3?

Or your telling me you believe that Nacho gets info and becomes a lightning rod in one night.
Because if that's what you tell me makes a ton of sense I'm going to look at you like your nuts.

here.

[farside22]

So Nacho lied about a confirmed town result.
Then gets indigent when I point out his read on hiplop and the cop flip and heca role makes his claim impossible and now it's down to welp I claimed so scum would shot me.
People wonder why I'm scum reading Nacho

[farside22]

I wouldn't object to a farside lynch anymore.

You have fun there.
Because so far as I saw the change with the claim is scummy

[farside22]

Just an FYI.
I have 2 abilities. I did say I didn't use my commute yet for a reason.

[farside22]

I'm surprised Thor never used that ability......wait vengeful mass rb.
I wonder if that means night 5 everyone will be rb.
That would make sense as vengeful right?

[farside22]

Sorry night 4, this coming night phase will be mass rb.

[farside22]

Okay I'm in my thinking mode so bare with me.

7 players left 2 scum should be left.

Davsto who have you jailed each night?

Anka: I want you to explain why you think Nacho lying about hippy confirmed town reads town to you?

[farside22]

I thought vengeful was only when lynched?

Some versions of Vengeful are allowed to kill a player upon death regardless of whether they are lynched or killed by another means.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... %28role%29

I'm just thinking with how Thor was playing it could be either way.

[farside22]

I've already claimed, The Birds, Ascetic Jailkeeper, jailed Nachomamma8 every single night.

You stole my birds!

Mass claim is fine.
I half claimed already so I'm going to just finish.

Norma Bates - town - Reflexive Neighborizer, Modified Commuter

[farside22]

I'd like anka to go next

[farside22]

I'm saying that my role is either Tracker or Watcher.

As for whether I was roleblocked night three or not, I don't know.

I want to know your so called results first.

also I think we should finish claiming, who's left?

[farside22]

Massive and verdith are the last to claim.
We should finish this and if anyone targetted hippy please claim

[farside22]

I think I noticed something but I'm not home to check.
I think I read 2 watcher claims too from massive and anka?

[farside22]

That's correct, yes.

why is hippy up in arms over dav and verideth as role claims go?

I think one of the watchers is scum.
Mostly because I can't imagine 4 investigation roles with a backup being in this game and all town.

Anka did you ever finish your claim?

[farside22]

I've already claimed, The Birds, Ascetic Jailkeeper, jailed Nachomamma8 every single night.

You stole my birds!

Mass claim is fine.
I half claimed already so I'm going to just finish.

Norma Bates - town - Reflexive Neighborizer, Modified Commuter

You can't commute if you neighborize someone, I'm guessing?

Reflective.
I need to be targeted in order to have a neighbor.
It's a pretty crappy role when no one targets you.

I don't understand your case. Nacho said his Hiplop read had nothing to do with his role.

He was scum reading hippy day 2.

He said he knew hippy was town due to his role.
He said he went nowhere.

Dear lord do I need to draw a map here?

So you thought that me as scum forgot I was scumreading hiplop Day 2?

Or that I didn't realize I needed to claim to be going somewhere in order to fake having an investigative role?

I don't think you dumb.
What I see is since you were scum reading hippy and pist being your scum buddy was lynched instead you invented a reason to call hippy town.

Ascetic Jailkeeper makes sense because it has a fine interaction with scumblocker.

Duplicate roles are to be expected with my specific backup role, which is likely designed to make lynching counterclaims less scary for town.

How is that possible?

[farside22]

I'm seeing anka/Nacho scum team.

[farside22]

If your reasoning for linking us together is mostly the engagement we had yesterday, then you can do a lot better than that.

nope
You asked him a question about his read and just moved on and I notice he isn't really pushing you to explain anything.

Reflective.
I need to be targeted in order to have a neighbor.
It's a pretty crappy role when no one targets you.

So there's no reason for you not to commute every night?

No. I haven't done it. I thought even day 3 when I said I'm not commuting because I'm hoping someone will target me would get someone to target me.

I don't think you dumb.
What I see is since you were scum reading hippy and pist being your scum buddy was lynched instead you invented a reason to call hippy town.

Why would I need to invent a reason to call hiplop town when he lynched my buddy?
Why would I want to call hippy town as scum?

Why would hippy be a scum read after pist was lynched? I don't recall you saying anything about them being scum together.
See my first question to your question.
I mean if you had said, hmmm maybe I need to think about the flip and who I was scum reading vs who flipped I would think that came from a town mindset.
But players where voting you and suddenly you fake claim a town result on hippy.
I say BS.

How is that possible?

How is what possible?

this

Duplicate roles are to be expected with my specific backup role, which is likely designed to make lynching counterclaims less scary for town.

I was confused by the wording but I read it as though you were saying lynching a CC is less scary when there are duplicate roles.

[farside22]

Speaking of full claiming, where is anka with his results?

[farside22]

I'm just going to wait till everyone finishes claiming before I respond to nacho's question about my ability.
As for the rest it just hey lets attack farside because she is on to us games again.
Nacho's first question serve no purpose other then to dodge my question and apparently as long as anka sits there not explaining shit, it's okay.

[farside22]

My head hurts.
Also I feel dumb because I don't remeber what ascetic does at all.

Anka my vote is hovering in your direction.
I have one simple question.
Who did you target night 3?

[farside22]

There's no way Ank is scum unless you're saying he's a Mafia Watcher. He went to Nacho N2 and Nacho didn't die, and he has the other visitors to Nacho N2 correct, which he could guess at but not be 100% confident like he is if he were say a Rolecop or something. No, Ank is practically the ONLY confirmed townie in my book.

Tell me how watching dav makes any sense at all with ETL's claim and actions.

Vote: anka

[farside22]

Or hell even watching heca for fuck sake.
Of course I'm talking to the player that targeted Nacho night 1 for some reason.

[farside22]

Who the hell are you even talking about?

HECA FUCKING CLAIMED DAY 1

*growls*

Why the fuck would you watch a player like nacho from the fucking start?
This isn't fucking rocket science.

[farside22]

Who the hell are you even talking about?

HECA FUCKING CLAIMED DAY 1

*growls*

Why the fuck would you watch a player like nacho from the fucking start?
This isn't fucking rocket science.

Pay attention.

Massive claimed to start watching on night two.

How does that change anything from what I just said?

[farside22]

Because I was suspicious Of Davsto and him setting up N2 with Hecatia. I actually expected to catch him lying. I wasn't going to see any NKs in theory, so it was about trying to use my power on someone I expected to live a while and catch scum some other way.

I don't remember you suspecting heca and dav but I know my brain is a bit preoccupied.

Here is my silly question, what did that tell you about both there alignments by doing that?

[farside22]

Massive tracking Nacho N2 makes perfect sense. He knows there are two people who should be targeting Nacho that night, and finding out if there actually are two people targeting Nacho that night is a very sensible use of a Watch.

I'm going to disagree because all it does is tell you that the player targetted Nacho.
He isn't going to see a Nk on Nacho doing it with the claims, so how does that help us find scum?
It reads as useless info to me.

[farside22]

VOTE: farside22

You keep protecting your scum buddy there.
I'll ask the hard questions he'll dodge.

[farside22]

Unless you seriously think he was town reading Nacho for some crazy reason over heca.
I mean seriously.
Do you know if the player he targets die, does he targets another player after?
Do you fucking care?
If he's town why is Nacho alive if Nacho is a town read.
You let me know at what point aronis isn't scum just pretending reads

[farside22]

Answer me this farside.

In

what

universe
In a setup where kills can't reliably be tracked
In a situation where the only night actions we know of are targeting the same person

Why would it be scummy to watch the target of both players when any other option would almost certainly result in nothing?

How do you know it would be nothing?
Why do you think kills can't be tracked?

Did o miss a memo somewhere?

[farside22]

Massive tracking Nacho N2 makes perfect sense. He knows there are two people who should be targeting Nacho that night, and finding out if there actually are two people targeting Nacho that night is a very sensible use of a Watch.

I'm going to disagree because all it does is tell you that the player targetted Nacho.
He isn't going to see a Nk on Nacho doing it with the claims, so how does that help us find scum?
It reads as useless info to me.

You're not serious, right?

There are two people who are supposed to target Nacho. If one of them doesn't, they're probably scum. Simple as.
Tracking/Watching nightkills is borderline useless with a Ninja in the scum, unless I am lucky enough to jail said ninja.

Just an FYI I will sometimes say I'm targeting X and don't do it.
That is not because I'm scum it's because I thought about what was said in the game.

[farside22]

I thought massive said he was a ninja?

[farside22]

Answer me this farside.

In

what

universe
In a setup where kills can't reliably be tracked
In a situation where the only night actions we know of are targeting the same person

Why would it be scummy to watch the target of both players when any other option would almost certainly result in nothing?

How do you know it would be nothing?
Why do you think kills can't be tracked?

Did o miss a memo somewhere?

...

There's no way you're actually thinking this. You're scum.

Show me what the fuck I'm missing then because I don't get it.

[farside22]

I'm seriously getting frustrated here and talking around me doesn't really help.

[farside22]

Okay I feel dumb now.

[farside22]

I'm glad I read wiki.
Okay so dav is saying he is jk ascetic and verdith is claim just plain ascetic which seems pretty unrealistic based on all the claims and flips this far.
There seems to be a role that has something more to it so far and not just a simple role by itself.
I am curious why massive waited to use his ability until night 2.

I'm also concerned by Anka's acceptance of nacho's claim day 2.

Hippy: am I overthinking all this?

[farside22]

I am curious why massive waited to use his ability until night 2.

He has explained this; once he tracks someone, he is forced to track them for the rest of the game. Thus, he wished to make a more informed decision.

yeah but players claimed. I would think to watch someone who claimed just in case scum targeted them. Plus as I asked before if the player died doesn't he get to just pick another player to watch?

I'm glad I read wiki.
Okay so dav is saying he is jk ascetic and verdith is claim just plain ascetic which seems pretty unrealistic based on all the claims and flips this far.
There seems to be a role that has something more to it so far and not just a simple role by itself.
I am curious why massive waited to use his ability until night 2.

I'm also concerned by Anka's acceptance of nacho's claim day 2.

Hippy: am I overthinking all this?

I have no idea. I'm just as lost as you!

We have to solve this game farry !

At least it isn't just me.

[farside22]

I just remember I was asked about my ability.
I could commute only if noman wasn't commuting.

I asked the mod how would i know if my commuting did work and he said i wouldn't know.
I was told now that Norman is dead I can't commute anymore.

[farside22]

Let's vote Vedith together farside!

fine

vote: Vedith

I'm still grumbing about the watchers claims over there.
But I have no real read on Vedith and the claim is pretty weak in comparison.
If I'm right we have one more lynch where I can push those 2. And yes I think something is fishy as fuck with those claims.

[farside22]

im not so sure I want to do that...

I'd still do anka in a heart beat.
It's hard to imagine that a wagon didn't get on him at all.
I'm reconsidering my Nacho read to be fair though, he's day 4 is much better and more thoughtful then most of the other days and I'm getting the impression he is trying to figure the players out in the game.
With that in mind the only other player that makes sense as scum with anka is either massive (which seems crazy for scum to confirm each other) or Vedith.
I don't read Davesto as scum at all.

[farside22]

Why?

Because omgus is all he has.

mild thoughts about a nacho/farside team here...

Don't be silly.

[farside22]

too many of y'all are just too shifty!

So you disagree with my analysis of Nacho this game day?
Do you think the way he's playing looks scummy currently?
If so why?

[farside22]

Anak makes sense.

[farside22]

Her intent as scum would be to get townread for playing stupid, which I don't think is the case.

Why is this the only thing you can think of for why she would do this?

Why else would she do that as scum?

Just glancing at context, day three she thinks the scumteam is suddenly in a lot of trouble, then day four she realizes there's a lot of outs and town isn't unified anymore and just wants to keep town from getting organized again.

That's a load of crap.

[farside22]

This long post serves two things.
1) is Anka's comments about verdith, which you'll see very little.
2) where anka magically believes nacho's' reason for claiming hippy as confirmed town.

So the first one anka has vedith as town and then scum with me in the next post but if you look through Anka's ISO there is never a push on vedith in the game.

The reasini bring the second point is because anka is acting like he never believed Nacho before and has this sudden scum read while vedith is aowl.

alright well

Vedith + Hecatia are town. I'm okay with throwing massive into the pile for the moment. I want to throw ETL in there but I don't have enough experience with her to overthrow her reputation that I'm aware of to be comfortable with that.

1-2 minimum scum in Cataphant + Davsto + Thor665

The rest are in who the fuck knows land.

I'll get to this. Vedith and Farside are my two focuses when I do.

I don't understand your case. Nacho said his Hiplop read had nothing to do with his role.

I don't understand your case. Nacho said his Hiplop read had nothing to do with his role.

He was scum reading hippy day 2.

He said he knew hippy was town due to his role.
He said he went nowhere.

Dear lord do I need to draw a map here?

Did you forget the post where he said he said that it was his role to absorb a nightkill?

I don't understand your case. Nacho said his Hiplop read had nothing to do with his role.

He was scum reading hippy day 2.

He said he knew hippy was town due to his role.
He said he went nowhere.

Dear lord do I need to draw a map here?

Did you forget the post where he said he said that it was his role to absorb a nightkill?

uhhhh let me rephrase this so that it makes any sense whatsoever.

Did you forget the post where he said that the information was because of his role so that he could absorb a nightkill?

I wouldn't object to a farside lynch anymore.

[farside22]

Anyways that is the main reason for my POE of vedith and anka

[farside22]

Anyways that is the main reason for my POE of vedith and anka

So after I flip town you can call Ank town too?

I'm not playing the wifom game.

Farside, if you attempted to use your commute while Norman also used his commute, would you be informed it failed?

No.
I gathered the only way I would know it failed if someone targetted me.

[farside22]

Unvote

I think the part where I'm happiest working from is farside/Ank/hiplop town.
I didn't realize how unsure I felt about massive.

Who, if scum, had to submit the kill N1, which is sort of a concern thanks to the following:

Mafia members may not perform the factional kill and an active ability on the same night.

Night 2 would clear 2 players being scum together, unless there scum together....
But that would be ballys as hell

[farside22]

Davsto is confirmed not scum with massive or me, since both of us saw him target you.

Basically this.

[farside22]

There's no way farside should expect us to believe that she's read well enough today to change her opinion on Nacho, after blatantly and obviously failing at reading comprehension around the watcher claims.

The watcher claim is crap.
Also I'd fucking know there was a ninja if I was scum.
I only noticed part of pist ability and forgot about it.
The harping on this is rediculous

[farside22]

Yeah those points I made about aronis came from thin air.

[farside22]

i have removed my farside-scum possibbility

sorry i ever doubted you hun

i am mega hitler

I'm not playing a very good town game so I can't blame you.

[farside22]

Yeah those points I made about aronis came from thin air.

There's not even an "aronis" IN THIS GAME

I meant anka.
I had aronis name in my head but my longer post was clearly about anka.

[farside22]

Here but busy

[farside22]

Didn't you read Nacho my questions and thought process on massive was scummy because ......
Yeah that.

[farside22]

I did think that him claiming no action on N1 when Hecatia investigated him (and thus he had to submit the kill as scum) is a pretty big black mark against the slot, though. Did you comment on that before?

I forgot about that but I still have that interaction between vedith and anka that is unaccounted for, plus have you noticed the weak push from vedith.
I've seen more passion from my cat when he's getting his ear rubbed then from vedith scum read for no reason.

[farside22]

Farside: I already addressed 2160.

You assumed that when I said that I would focus on you and him when I started catching up again, that meant I was scumreading you. That assumption is false.

I must have imagined the vote in me then.

[farside22]

The vote that I put on you several pages after the posts you were referencing in 2160 and specifically stated it was for the post directly preceding it?

It's pretty clear by your ISO that your scum read on vedith never exsisted and all your doing is pushing me.

farry, what should we do?

Massive or vedith?

Vedith or anka in my oppinion

[farside22]

Yeah, my scumread on Vedith never existed. That's what I'm saying.

Hey thanks for proving my point about how fake your reads are.

[farside22]

Keep tunnel visioning garbage, please.

I'm sorry I can't hear your hypocritical comment.

I did think that him claiming no action on N1 when Hecatia investigated him (and thus he had to submit the kill as scum) is a pretty big black mark against the slot, though. Did you comment on that before?

I forgot about that but I still have that interaction between vedith and anka that is unaccounted for, plus have you noticed the weak push from vedith.
I've seen more passion from my cat when he's getting his ear rubbed then from vedith scum read for no reason.

The Ank end of the interaction where he has Vedith in his town reads and then later says he's going to look at him makes sense: Vedith had been doing the equivalent of jack shit at that point and I think that's when I or someone else first started to look at him. Vedith's pushes are weak because he's basically just not doing anything at all except go "I'm town! When you mislynch me, don't fuck up tomorrow!" which is weirdly enough something that I am reading as town so yeah I totally buy that read.

For what it's worth, Ank's assertion that "I'm looking into Farside and Vedith tomorrow" somehow wasn't equivalent to a scumread (why would you want to look into them if you didn't think they were good possibilities of being scum?" doesn't really make sense.

That's null at best.

Sure!

I expected farside to say massive or vedith. Didn't expect her to not include massive.

I've narrowed it down to not you, farside or DAV. I just am not sure which to vote today. I'm fine with all 3 of them, I just want to know which you and farside would prefer

Are you even reading today?

[farside22]

yes! why?

I wonder why I make big post sometimes.

Also while my brain is awake at 2:30am I asked myself why didn't anka target heca night 1?
He said he targetted ETL and this was before the ninja info was out and 2 other players claimed a PR that day, along with a soft PR.

[farside22]

yes! why?

I wonder why I make big post sometimes.

Also while my brain is awake at 2:30am I asked myself why didn't anka target heca night 1?
He said he targetted ETL and this was before the ninja info was out and 2 other players claimed a PR that day, along with a soft PR.

ftr my half of the engagement with Nacho about the watcher was how I viewed the game at the beginning. After Lying Cat claimed, my engagement with Wingback gave me the idea that I should be searching for scum supporting roles (role cop, roleblocker, etc.) instead. That's what I was searching for both nights.

Keep tunnel visioning garbage, please.

I'm sorry I can't hear your hypocritical comment.

You're scumreading my read on Vedith even though I was heavily townreading him day one and he steadily moved to null. I stated something like 3-4 times now that me wanting to look into him doesn't equal a scumread. You have yet to acknowledge this.

You're scumreading me for basically arguing with you about Nacho's claim about hiplop. I never gave any indication whatsoever that I townread him for that gambit. My claim should make it blindingly clear why I didn't support a lynch on him day three. It should be pretty clear that I was trying to get you to see why your logic made no sense (because lo and behold... it made no sense), but you death tunneled it and are now trying to use it as ammo against me.

So yes, I'm going to tell you that you're tunneling garbage because you're straight up tunneling garbage. In both instances, I immediately noticed where your logic went wrong and tried to get you to see them, but you're blindly insisting that you're right even though you're clearly not.

Excuse me?!

You sure as shit never pushed anything on Nacho. Your question was simple and then you sit back like eh whatever the fuck like you don't see anything remotely odd, so the question itself meant fuck all to you. You never remotely did anything about Nacho's gambit. Why?
Can you say why?

yes! why?

I wonder why I make big post sometimes.

Also while my brain is awake at 2:30am I asked myself why didn't anka target heca night 1?
He said he targetted ETL and this was before the ninja info was out and 2 other players claimed a PR that day, along with a soft PR.

ftr my half of the engagement with Nacho about the watcher was how I viewed the game at the beginning. After Lying Cat claimed, my engagement with Wingback gave me the idea that I should be searching for scum supporting roles (role cop, roleblocker, etc.) instead. That's what I was searching for both nights.

And this is ridiculous.
Role cop you wouldn't fucking know. A RB if dav is town would just target him.

[farside22]

Davesto?

[farside22]

I'm thinking this can't be right.
My brain still see's anka scum

[farside22]

Nacho: who is your scum read on currently?
Why did you think vedith actions were town and why did you vote massive with deadline approaching

[farside22]

Massive is conftown and I know for a fact that either Davsto or I are conftown as well because I watched Nacho last night.

Why did you say you watched Nacho?

[farside22]

Mod: v/la till Thursday

[farside22]

Here is my dumb question to Anka, why not just watch massive?

[farside22]

Assuming Ank as a possibility means assuming you and Davsto as a possibility. It means he has a secondary ability that he can only use instead of killing. But Ank is even less likely to be scum, because rather than target Nacho last night, he could have killed me and gotten the same result.

I also now think farside would have taken a shot at Ank, knowing you roughly trusted her and Davsto and I were essentially locked on Nacho.

Nacho logically makes the most sense.

I'm assuming anka because he's a scum read and his choice makes no sense, delayed or otherwise

[farside22]

The cycle could continue if Nacho is scum and everyone is follow the leader.

vote: Nacho

Still betting money on Anka scum

[farside22]

Not surprised.
I think scum targetted you, but no one listens to me

[farside22]

I'm planning on targeting Anka tonight. If scum did try to kill Nacho last night - unlikely, but possible - he, in theory, has an incriminating result, and is worth keeping alive.

hiplop should probably track farside.

please!!!

[farside22]

I'm not holding out hope of any anka lynch

[farside22]

Yeah because I can't target anyone apparently I'm scum.
Total sense there

[farside22]

Well played everyone! Well done town! Sorry for my crappy play super earlier on but I hope I helped make it up later~

Scum played well during the day, but I feel their biggest weakness was the night actions. Not killing me/Hecatia N1 caused a lot of problems, and them not killing me early on (me being JK and all) was ultimately what led to their demise. Scum blackmailing me despite my Ascetic claim already being out there was also a bad move. While Ploti sadly failed due to the kill target on that last night, blaming them would be silly because they had only just replaced in, probably didn't know all the claims, and didn't realise that killing anyone other than me/massive would result in an instant loss.

Anyway, gg!

There was no kill that would help scum.
Honestly I'm furious this game had so many investigative roles.
There was no way in hell scum could win this no matter what was done

[farside22]

I told anti I surrender the day I was replaced and told him there was no good reason to keep the game going.
He for some reason didn't want to listen and asked if he could replace me instead.

[farside22]

didn't kill jailkeeper

yeah this was all kinds of wtf lol...

@farside

- surrendering as last scum is not just dishonorable, it's kind of against site rules regarding playing to your wincon, and the fact that you forced the mod to find a replacement for you -

because you didn't know how to win

- in

LYLO

is beyond gross. it's just plain rude. please don't join future games with me.

i think everyone played pretty well and i really liked the setup. it was different than what anti normally does and kept people guessing up until nearly the very end. well done. and anti was an amazing mod as usual. ♥

1) players have surrender as scum before.
2) you have no right to complain self hammering as town in a previous game, to discuss what is best to do.

Let's look at this differently.

Town
Cop
Constant watcher
Tracker
Delayed watcher
Jk
Backup pr
A player that knew when someone shot a gun

Scum:
Blackmailer/ ninja
Back up ninja
A meighborizor who can only neighboring when targeted.

Only one scum role takes everything into account for all those pr.
Everyone targeting one play is confirmed town of someone else dies.

Your dumb if you think that is by any means balanced

[farside22]

Probably because the ninja was Vedith, who was widely scumread, and there was a known Jailkeeper in play.

Still don't get why they didn't kill me though. That was just slight scum stupidity which, simply, contributed hugely towards their loss.

People distructed you and I was banking on the paronia

[farside22]

Yeh, setup wasn't as scumsided as you're making it out to be.

Main investigative could only get 1 definite innocent result and it requires both them and the Jailkeeper to have claimed and it either be D1 or the Jailkeeper had jailed the same person all nights so far. It would also be rendered null at finding any scum in 3 days, and the Neighbouriser-Killer basically acted as a false positive which, due to the way the role worked, would remain a false positive.

Then, the Trackers and Watchers. Firstly, you had two Ninjas (normal and backup), so you really didn't need to worry about much at all as long as they were kept alive. Secondly, while the Tracker was just normal, the two Watchers (which I'd argue are always more likely to catch a NK being made) were largely nerfed. Massive was stuck watching a single target until they died, and Ankamius was delayed. These are obviously problems on their own, but they're worse post-massclaim; all scum need to do to counter the former is not to kill the target or do so with a ninja, and the latter can be ignored and then killed if they targeted someone and you know that would give them an incriminating result the next night.

Did you even realize everyone targetted Nacho and massive saw it all.
If I killed the tracker that night or killed massive that night and the tracker targetted me I was dead.


The was only one good power role for scum.
Too much ability interacting with each other, which massive caught onto and town able to confirm each other.