Mafia 158: Titanium. Game over

[Jun]

HA

To elaborate. PMysterious responds terribly to pressure and reveals his role quickly. For example, in that game Evilpacman just described, I figured out PM was a PR based on his very first post. In other games, such as Mini 1361, I've found one of his scumpartners and him being scum based on his actions. Therefore, pressuring PM pays dividends. It is not an RVS.

RVS does help though. To point to specific results would be hard, because you could argue about exactly what constitutes RVS and how much it's impact is on the game. However, virtually anygame that uses it and then properly catch scum can be traced back to RVS at some point.

Although your pointed question-asking works, but I find it still results in the same end. Newbies trip up in either RVS or asking questions, and pressure is applied to determine if they are scum. Then, based off flips, PR results and associative links, more experienced scum are found.

Seriously, pile some votes on PM. I want him pressured; if he starts to fall apart, he's scum.

McStab, are you pressuring PMysterious to see if they are a PR role because they easily reveal their role? I can only sense scum motivations behind wanting to reveal roles so soon. Not sure if you have scumknowledge and are looking to gain towncred if PMysterious flips scum. IGMEOY.


VOTE: maenara
I'm hungry and this name sounds like marinara sauce.


Now for a clarification question:
-Do we know anything about the roles in this setup except that they are balanced by the Normal Game Review Group? Should I expect something similar to a C9++ setup in which roles are determined based on a formula and thus the role list can be guessed at due to flips?

[Jun]

FOS evilpacman18, too.

^ scum #1.

He calls me scummy but doesn't provide reasoning until pressed.

And that's not even the only thing that's terribly wrong with that post.

Again, he doesn't bother to elaborate. To me this looks like scum trying to shift blame onto others by calling people out on things without providing reasoning and trying to seem more knowledgeable than others.

McStab could very well be scum. I'm not buddying at all. I didn't read him well at all last game but that was heavily based on circumstance, rather than his posting reading like scum to me.
Don't think that I'm setting up my reads for the rest of the game already. I guarantee you they'll change as the game goes, I just tend to sound pretty sure of things early on. My reads on Maenara and Smashbard are based on differences in their RVS votes as scum and their RVS votes now. It's not much to go on, but I'll add to them and they'll probably be drastically different by the end of the day. Haven't we played together before?
You're probably right about McStab's answer to my question being made irrelevant.

Jun's post is bad because it goes like this
>FOS on someone he thinks is scummy
>makes contrived RVS vote after just saying someone is actually scummy
>lulzy ignorant setup speculation on a closed normal. (I mean he knows what a C9++ is but doesn't know how a closed normal works? That's kinda bull don't you think? I don't even know what a C9++ is.)

Can we please not have McStab vs. Hiraki?

Then finally he elaborates after being asked about it further. He might be scum postfarming to look like he is making many "good" contributions to the daychat when he should have just said this in his initial post. If evilpackman18 thinks I'm scummy for FOS'ing someone and then not voting for them then doesn't that make evilpacman18 scummy by his own definition for not even placing a vote yet?

And I don't know what a normal setup here is like. I've only played one newbie game on this site (the one with NJAC), but I have had experience on another site playing in C9++ or JK++ setups with no role lists provided OR other moderator selected setups in which a general role list detailing scum slots and evil neutral slots were provided. Even after reading the wiki on normal setups I'm still confused. Much like I was confused about the newbie setup until actually playing through one.

@McStab - So the wagon on PMy is to make him somehow claim, right? Is there any other motivation under it? Do you actually think he's scummy?

McStab... IGMEOY.

VOTE: maenara

So, you did it again, you think someone is scummy but you vote another person, why is that?

I am still in RVS, especially seeing as many players haven't even checked in yet. It's hard for me to really get a sense of who the real scum might be. I would rather FoS for now and just file away my note on McStab's behavior while I try out this RVS thing.

Closed normal - the wiki has a list of roles considered normal. Any of them can appear with any applicable normal modifier. Setups are created by the mod, and approved for normalcy and usually balance by a small group of reviewers. There's no way to predict what might be in the game and trying to outguess the mod is generally a bad idea....

Thanks for the explanation, why exactly is that a bad idea?

Yes, why is attempting to guess at the setup a bad idea? I assume scum will be at an advantage, knowing what roles they have been assigned, and thus they have a bit of an advantage, as I learned from playing in C9++ or other formula balanced setups.

Additionally, I came up with another question. In the Newbie game, the IC recommended that lying/fake claiming is highly frowned upon in Newbie setups. What is the general "Large Normal Game stance" on fake claims, or anything else pertaining to Normal Game meta that might be useful for a new player to know?

[Jun]

Hey guys, I'mma leave my vote on evilpacman18 because he has FOS'ed many times yet has refused to vote. Maybe if we get enough votes on him he'll be forced to vote someone and actually do something. EPM put your money where your mouth is. Not voting, I have learned, is scum trying to avoid making a stand.

VOTE: evilpacman18

Why haven't you decided to vote yet?

[Jun]

What happens when you over speculate on the setup
Read the first 5 pages. They're easy and pretty hilarious.

Your refusal to vote in our current game sticks out to me like a sore thumb. In the game you linked, you were town and you participated in RVS and voted your suspicions as well. Why the sudden change in play?

[Jun]

Incidentally, My opinion of meta-gaming is that all it does is gets noobs lynched. I certainly learned from my first game so I played my second differently, does that mean I had a different role?. And what about people who are experimenting with different styles of play, so pish to your "analyzing meta".

I think that regardless of how evilpacman18 played in the game he linked and his meta info, it's a legitimate request to pressure him into actually laying down a vote. Especially in a game where he has so many FOS directed at others.

[Jun]

I still think it's scummy that evilpacman18 called me scummy for not voting a FOS and then he doesn't vote me. It's just not internally consistent with his claimed style of play. Regardless of anything else in other games. Doesn't anyone besides me and theomoner see this?

Also, welcome Thurhame. This seems more like Newbie1269 by the minute.

[Jun]

Jun tell me.

Why is it so important to you that I vote immediately?

Tbh I just wanted to see how you'd react just because it did strike me as mildly scummy to call someone out for not voting a FOS and then not vote your FOS yourself. I dunno, your response strikes me as townish.

UNVOTE: evilpacman18
VOTE: theomoaner

He seems the scummiest to me so far for engaging in rather 'meh' scumhunting.

[Jun]

Jun tell me.

Why is it so important to you that I vote immediately?

Tbh I just wanted to see how you'd react just because it did strike me as mildly scummy to call someone out for not voting a FOS and then not vote your FOS yourself. I dunno, your response strikes me as townish.

UNVOTE: evilpacman18
VOTE: theomoaner

He seems the scummiest to me so far for engaging in rather 'meh' scumhunting.

I wasn't calling you out for not voting the one person you'd called scummy. I was calling you out for calling someone scummy and then voting someone randomly. Also my response strikes you as townish? I gave you one factual sentence, it would've still been true if I was scum. Not to mention, you're being stupidly opportunistic. Literally this same page you just backhandedly complimented theomoaner's scumhunting for being the only other person that can see I'm being scummy, according to you. Now you're hopping on his wagon because his scumhunting is "meh?"

NO.

unvote

the theomoaner wagon is a red herring anyway, it's already gaining traction too quickly. I'm gonna wanna lynch Jun.

Your responses strike me as townish because I learned this from Thor665:

gh, he's been lower on my scumdar simply because it's not that common for scum to totally avoid voting - usually newbie scum are willing to bend to my demands of being aggressive easier. NJAC's near inability to take any stance feels potentially just newb townish. Also, Jun/Anach's "case" on NJAC/Code_X as a scumpair reads to me more like a case of how they *aren't* a scum pair.

I thought it was anti town of you not to vote to help people get out of RVS. And while I don't know if you are new or not new, Thor's argument that newbie scum is "willing to bend to demands to be aggressive earlier" stuck with me. My intent was to pressure you to vote and to see if you would feel pressured to vote someone and bend to my demands in order to avert suspicion. You did vote, but you did so in a way that didn't seem like scum trying to throw out a frantic vote in order to appease me. It seemed like you had a real process to your reasoning by analyzing the people on PMysterious, and I liked that. That's why your vote seemed town to me.

I'll have to watch more of your reactions in order to see how things pan out.

[Jun]

Granted, I'm not Thor665 so I have way less of an intimidation factor, but I wanted to try this technique anyway.

[Jun]

UNVOTE: theomoaner
VOTE: PMysterious

Wasn't this guy supposed to show up and contribute more by page 6? I want to hear what he will say.

[Jun]

but you neglected to quote my entire post, which included my thoughts on scum.

That's not the point.

To Hikari: I don't find Theo scummy at the moment because we share a genuine suspicion of Jun's play. If my gut is right and Jun is scum, it wouldn't make a lot of sense for Theo to just straight up buss a scumbuddy so early in the game like that. As he's trying pretty hard to get him lynched.

Just because he's trying hard doesn't mean anything.

Wasn't this guy supposed to show up and contribute more by page 6? I want to hear what he will say.

I am regretting a tad bit, after seeing shit like this rather than something actually important, that I gave you a town read.

eta: I think newbs in this setting

should

be gone after but not for reasons like your gut is telling you that someone is bad or you don't like a playstyle. go after someone you find objectively scummy.

I think it's perfectly legitimate to vote a lurker to entice them to come back and um. Let's see. Participate? Isn't that the point of this game? He even said he would come back by page 6. I think it's anti town to let people like PMysterious lurk.

do you guys triangulate on here?

What does that entail?

triangulation is when 2 players who have town reads on each other start a dialogue comapring their scum/town piles and bring in another player and form a consensus and then vote as block. they do this in order to control the lynch since town usually moves in herds. it is a very effective strategy since town's main way of eliminating scum is through a lynch.

I have only a played few untimed games so not sure if it would work in this format but I would to try it.

I want to triangulate with slandaar cos he is my strongest town right now, he is cutting through the chaff and I don't think scum would go out of their way to help a newb get out of their very wrong reasoning especially a newb that no one seems to like, lol. if he were scum, I would think that he would just let me get lynched instead of encouraging me to think in a different way.

I want to see if he will work with me and then see if we could bring hikari in since he has a town read on him and I like some of hikari's responses.

triangulation is a good strategy and I have noticed that town wins more games when they do this than not.

So I guess I'm on peoples' scum lists. I need time to reread the thread to look at everyone individually, but my triangulation list so far is that Thurhame and NJAC are town since they are playing very similar to the way they played in Newbie 1269. Expect NJAC to not vote much and expect him to come under fire for being kind of a late starter. I think NJAC or myself is an easy town mislynch, so I urge you to read Newbie 1269 if you want to see that this exact same thing happened in our recently finished game.

My vote's fine on PMysterious. He needs to come back and contribute and anybody who says I'm scummy for voting him is anti town for giving lurkers a free pass to lurk.

[Jun]

I've added pirate mollie to my town list since I like the idea of triangulation.

So far my town reads are:
NJAC - play is consistent with his past town play
Thurhame - play is consistent with his past town play
pirate mollie - pushing force in daychat, seems very pro-town, triangulation

These are the only ones I am confident about so far.

[Jun]

Just did an ISO of this game. I'll reread it non-iso'ed later. For now this will have to do.

My reads (in no particular order):

Town:

Hiraki

– very aggressive, similar to Majiffy (scum) in my Newbie Game who everyone thought was town. His actions seem pro town for now, so I am fine tentatively putting him as town because I think Majiffy’s play was the exception, not the rule, as players such as Thor665 even thought Majiffy was town.

NJAC

– play is consistent with town play in Newbie 1269. I feel confident marking this slot as town for now.

Thurhame

– Like NJAC, this play is consistent with his town play in Newbie 1269. I also feel confident making this slot town. I also think Thurhame replacing out due to time commitment is a town thing for him to do because he takes this game pretty seriously.

Maenara

– I feel like this slot is weak town. Tries to be helpful, but ends up voting players I feel are likely to be town. I think that Maenara’s opinion on NJAC is justified, without previous knowledge of how he plays the game as town. The hesitation about my slot also seems town for me, as I would expect scum to place me in one category, being more confident about their scum reads.

Mcstab

– I buy his “I’m busy with school” excuse. If that explains the lurking then I can see his slot as town. Hopefully he will post more this weekend. I am interested to see how he follows up with the PMysterious situation, as PMysterious’s lurking makes me think he’s lurking scum.

Shinori

– his attack on Eleison for being “off his meta” as town seems good. I’m fine with this slot being town for now, too.

Evilpacman

– I’m fine putting this slot as town. Definitely helps contribute to the scum hunt even if it’s misdirected at me. His responses don’t read as scum to me.

Pirate mollie

– Town leader type, helping us scumhunt. Seems town. ‘Nuff said.

Scum:

Eleison

– early/mid posts are completely devoid of content. I don’t like how he also won’t post his town reads because I think that it’s important to see if we can come to a consensus on some confirmed town for the triangulation. Votes what I consider a low hanging lurker fruit (Telo) who is already going to be V/LA until after the weekend. Very defensive about getting called out about his meta by Shinori.

Pmysterious

– has been completely useless thus far. I am putting this slot as scum for lurking after McStab tried to pressure this slot into revealing if they are scum or town by attempting to start a train on PMysterious. Seems to me like PMysterious is hoping the attention will drift off of him by the time he comes back to participate. Anti town to not participate in almost a week.

Smashbard

– Gives me a weird feeling for defending Eleison (my scum read). Says vaguely that he has a good reason to believe Eleison is town that is completely unclear to me at the moment. I can buy Eleison and Smashbard as a scum team.

Theomoaner

– seems like scum b/c of posts lacking in content or blatantly attacking people for things that imo don’t seem very scummy at all.

Unsure:

Slandaar

– I tend to read players with this posting style as scum so he is leaning slightly scum read for me. I don’t really have a good place to put him based on anything other than gut feeling. If Eleison flips scum I would think Slandaar might be scum bussing scum, hopping on that wagon early to avoid detection.

Dividizzle

– posts too infrequently for me to get a good read on him. Seems like lurking scum, and I’d like him to step up and contribute a lot more so I can get a proper read.

Telo

– Like dividizzle, this fellow posts too infrequently for me to get a proper read. Could be lurking scum, could simply be busy. Let’s not forget that this slot posts that he will be able to post after this weekend.


I think Eleison is my largest suspect for now, and his flip would give town the most information, imo. I don't like how PMysterious is lurking so much, but I'll drop it for now since he is gone and my vote there obviously isn't doing anything.
UNVOTE: PMysterious
VOTE: Eleison

[Jun]

Dividizzle, I would like to see you post a little more so I can try to assess whether or not I think you are town or not.

And to everyone getting mad at me for saying NJAC and Thurhame are town after only playing 1 game with them: They are being consistent with their town style play which I have seen so they can be town for now. I'd rather get rid of the people I think are scummy or am unsure about before voting for them. Does that make sense?

[Jun]

And to everyone getting mad at me for saying NJAC and Thurhame are town after only playing 1 game with them: They are being consistent with their town style play which I have seen so they can be town for now. I'd rather get rid of the people I think are scummy or am unsure about before voting for them. Does that make sense?

You have avoided my question to you, so I'll repeat it. How do you know they are not being consistent with their scum style of play?

I do not know that they are not being consistent with their scum style of play, however since I think that since they are playing in a way that is consistent with their town style of play I would rather get rid of other people I find more scummy first because they are likely to be town. I believe I said this earlier.

I'd rather get rid of the people I think are scummy or am unsure about before voting for them. Does that make sense?

See?

[Jun]

I think it's strange how Pirate Mollie is reacting badly to the pressure of votes on her. I also think it's curious how she had me down as a scum read (i.e. attacking the low hanging fruit, herself! -> self defined scum tell), and suddenly switched me to a town read that she would consider triangulating with as soon as I expressed interest in triangulation. To me the first two examples seems very scummy, and the third seems like scum trying hard to lead the daychat via triangulation and is willing to go against her prior reads in order to find enough people on board with this proposal.

Smashbard's Post #351 seems really interesting and is making me reconsider my town read on pirate mollie. Seeing stuff like this is making me consider him leaning more town than scum in my reads because he provides good insight, imo.

These recent posts have given me a worse impression of pirate mollie and a better impression of smashbard. I suppose I should go re-iso them as my next course of action, but I'm a little short on time atm.

For now at least, I'd like to see how Pirate Mollie reacts to even more pressure.
VOTE: Pirate Mollie

[Jun]

Sorry, I forgot to unvote my previous vote. For the sake of clarity, unvoting all previous votes:
UNVOTE: Eleison
UNVOTE: Pirate Mollie

And now to revote:
VOTE: Pirate Mollie

[Jun]

I think my interest in pirate mollie stems mostly from her reaction to light pressure and seeming to have given up when there is still much time in the day.

I'd still also be down for a PMysterious lynch since they have decided to disappear, making McStab's pressure on him effectively useless.

[Jun]

I had Thurhame pegged as scum when he was in that slot, but he may have just been a bad player (or too busy like he said, stranger things have happened).

Looking at Thurhame's iso, he does focus pretty hard on two specific lynches without providing really any rationale. They both also happened to be fairly popular.

Guys, Thurhame is town. Believe me. We have bigger fish to fry at the moment. Like mollie and PMysterious.

[Jun]

McStab is losing town points to me for posting in other threads but not contributing in this one.

and @ everyone thinking my belief and trust in Thurhame means that I am scum:
Thurhame and NJAC seem very town to me. I read them as scum while they were town in our newbie game, and I think in light of that it's very likely that they're town as well in this game. I really have no reason to believe otherwise until we get to the point at which it becomes obvious I made an erroneous assumption (but I do not think that would happen). mollie is scummy for simply giving up at L-5 and PMysterious is suspicious for lurking so much.

Although I have to say everyone here is lurking a lot, too. Come on town, step it up. Even if I don't have much to say I still try to say something to help move things along.

[Jun]

McStab is losing town points to me for posting in other threads but not contributing in this one.

and @ everyone thinking my belief and trust in Thurhame means that I am scum:
Thurhame and NJAC seem very town to me. I read them as scum while they were town in our newbie game, and I think in light of that it's very likely that they're town as well in this game. I really have no reason to believe otherwise until we get to the point at which it becomes obvious I made an erroneous assumption (but I do not think that would happen). mollie is scummy for simply giving up at L-5 and PMysterious is suspicious for lurking so much.

Although I have to say everyone here is lurking a lot, too. Come on town, step it up. Even if I don't have much to say I still try to say something to help move things along.

Yes I saw this too btw.

And by my question, I mean, for what reason other than "i played with them once, they acted like this, so they must be town"? Like, what specifically citable from this thread have they done to convince you that they are town?

ok, leaving work. Should be able to respond in the morning.

Dude, like I previously said, they seem town based on consistency with their style of play from the last game we played in which they flipped town. There are people here I find more scummy such as PMysterious and piratemollie so I don't think we need to waste our time (like we did in the other game) mislynching Thurhame and NJAC. Believe me, last game I suspected them the whole entire time, but I realized that a lot of what I found scummy about them is merely a playstyle difference.

You ask me for examples from this thread... well
I think that both NJAC and Thurhame's "defense" of me from being scummy based on an understanding of our playstyle in the newbie game together is a towntell. We don't need to waste time debating the NJAC/Thurhame/Jun towniness or not since we all are contributing and have been contributing about the same as in the newbie game. I find it pro-town of them to help town avoid a mislynch. I put "defense" in quotes since it wasn't a defense as much as just pointing out that our playstyle is consistent.

Especially since there are way more scummy players in this game and ones who rarely post, I think we we should stop town v. town fighting over Thurhame and NJAC and focus on the others who are blatantly anti-town.

[Jun]

My suspicion of you is in the specific phrasing you used. "I won't use my insanity as an excuse for scumslips". Town doesn't plan on making "scumslips". If you mean what you say and stand by your reads and suspicions you shouldn't have to have back up excuses for scumslips. You shouldn't be reading them as scumslips at all. Because if your logic is sound and you believe in what you are saying you will fight accusations of scumslippage and explain why what you said is indeed, not a scumslip.

The admission that you already know ahead of time that you're going to make scumslips pretty much by definition means that you will make a slip that will implicate you as scum. Which tells me right out of the gate you are trying to blend into the town, but already know you're going to slip up and make mistakes in your logic. Which reads to me like uncomfortable scum who is trying to just smooth over any mistakes he makes beforehand by jokingly saying "I won't use the insanity defense". What kind of defense will you use? Why do you need a defense at all? Maybe because you know you're scum.

Hmm, good point. I retract my town read on Thurhame/numbers guy. He can be an unsure read for now.

[Jun]

I wouldn't say that the numbers guy's misuse of terminology is a scumtell at all. He probably just messed up. I still think we should lynch pirate mollie for being way scummier with the whole deflecting attention from self via asking others opinions on the person who calls her out.

Smashbard seems pretty town, too and is trying to help us get stuff done. I refuse to vote for numbers guy or shinori, and would much rather lynch pirate mollie.

[Jun]

I don't find anyone scummy for offering to hammer. I think that's either town v. town bickering and grasping at straws or scum calling out town for a mediocre scumtell.

I think PMysterious is the most suspicious to me for lurking.
VOTE: PMysterious

[Jun]

Sorry, I think I got confused between PMysterious and evilpacman18. They both have a circular avatar with yellow in it so I got confused. I intended to vote for the evilpacman18 slot, but instead voted for a different name.

To me, I don't think Shinori is scummy for hammering, as his reason for hammering based on pirate mollie's flailing seems perfectly valid to me.

I think something like this is way more scummy:

I'm gonna hammer the first person to reach L-1 so that I can give myself time to catch up over the night.

VOTE: evilpacman18

He posts so infrequently and when he does, it's just filler. Looks like lurking scum trying to feign activity.

[Jun]

To me, I don't think Shinori is scummy for hammering, as his reason for hammering based on pirate mollie's flailing seems perfectly valid to me.

By this of course I mean her scum list of Eleison, Shinori, and myself. That list doesn't make sense as Shinori had pointed out, and it seemed ill thought out like a hastily cobbled together read from a scum player.

Is it possible that pirate mollie might be an actress? Or some kind of reverse miller? Are those roles allowed in normal setups? I was just wondering.

[Jun]

Same goes for anyone why hadn't actually voted for him yet. Primarily, Jun and Theo. I'd really like a concise explanation as to why you are voting for others over obvscum.

Because scum distancing is evident

I'm not voting for Shinori because:
1. The case against him seems weak. Supposedly he scum hammers pirate mollie, but I think his reasoning was perfectly legit, and also I don't see a scum motivation to hammer pirate mollie since she was gonna be lynched anyway. It's not like he was bussing Mollie, and it's not like he was scum trying to get off a quick hammer before the train shifted elsewhere.
2. I think the train against him is scumled, trying to bully the town into sheeping onto Shinori. Sure he's not the best player, but I certainly don't think he's scum.

And lol, after rereading, I'd rather lynch combinatorialEnigma:
1. I think he's being opportunistic scum trying to lynch town Shinori.
2. His attitude is absolutely terrible and seems to me like overconfident scum that thinks he has this game in the bag since town keeps lurking so much.
3. I also had a scum or neutral read on PMysterious (I don't quite remember), but I think that slot is very anti town.
4. combinatorial Enigma's post #669:

And that sums up exactly how I feel about Shinori. He's either scum or useless, and based on late D1 I'm leaning scum.

Based on late Day 1, I think Shinori is town, and I think scum is trying to mislynch a townie. So I completely disagree with combinatorial Enigma's reasoning for wanting to go after Shinori. I think he's grasping at straws to magically fabricate some case against Shinori that isn't there. If you think Shinori is scum or useless there's a possibility that he's just useless. Wouldn't you then rather lynch someone like evilpacman18 who is in the same category but seems way more likely to be scum? Based on his own meta arguments he linked for me.

I think Telo is the most pro town person here, and am disappointed that he is replacing out.

VOTE: combinatorial Enigma

I'd be down to lynch combinatorial Enigma or evilpacman18. I think both of them are probably my top two scum suspects at the moment. Need to read up on others like Buldermar, Maenara, Eleison, who I think are sheeping along with the scum led train.

[Jun]

Maybe I should rephrase that - I'm not so sure if it's a scum led train, but in my mind it's defintiely scum motivated.

[Jun]

Masons, what do you think about combinatorial enigma?

[Jun]

I'd rather lynch CombinatorialEnigma, but I'd be down for a Maenara lynch if that's what people are leaning towards since the CombinatorialEnigma thing doesn't look like it's gaining any traction.

Maenara is one of those players that seems to be sheeping along with the crowd like scum trying to hide. I also don't like how Maenara knows so much about the setup including 3 mafia and 1 sk. I'd wager that maybe she's part of a 3 person mafia and they assume that there would be a sk in the game as well. That's the impression I got.

VOTE: Maenara

[Jun]

While I still continue to draw correlations between the Mollie/Shinori Wagons, Eleisons wagon and Slandaars death, I'll comment on a few things.

I don't believe there is an SK this game. Otherwise two kills would of went through last night. I'm more inclined to believe there is a big 4 person Mafia. But this is a Mykonian set up, you never know what's going to happen. I'd be kind of surprised if this was just a cookie cutter set up with mostly Vanilla Townies, a couple of Masons and flavorless Mafia.

Maenara, why vote for NJAC as opposed to someone like Hiraki, Enigma or Jun?


I'm getting really annoyed at all the mudslinging of people complaining about Sheeping. Especially since we just went through hell on Day 1 to get everyone to even come together on a lynch. So I'm officially keeping a hawk eye on the Sheep accusers for trying to disrupt town cooperation.

Vote: Jun

Being that you were the one who made the original claim that you refused to lynch Numbers and Shinori day 1, I want answers. Getting you to flip is going to give me the most information as to whether or not Numbers, Shinori or NJAC is scum. NJAC because he's the other guy next to Thurhame/Numbers you were trying so hard to confirm town due to one previous games meta.

My Day 1 reads were that numbers/thurhame, Shinori, and NJAC were town. I had suspects I was unsure about, and I would much rather lynch someone I think is scum or someone I am unsure about. Thurhame and NJAC seemed consistent with their town play, which made me want to skip over them until further evidence was uncovered or by process of elimination (if everyone else in the town looked like town). Sure, it's not the best argument, and by no means will I refuse to lynch them at a further point. But in terms of me narrowing down my Day 1 FOS, their playstyles made me think hmm, this person is probably town until they do something scummy that indicates otherwise.

I feel like I explained this already.

As an update on my reads, NJAC seems to be lurking a lot. If we pressure him, he'll start contributing more.

I think the case on Shinori is weak, and I think there were scum on his train and town refusing to hammer.

I don't think Numbers's "scumslip" that people accused him of having earlier is that big of a deal - he probably used the wrong term and overzealous town or opportunistic mafia jumped on him for it.

I think a 4 person mafia team sounds more likely than a 3 person mafia and 1 sk due to the lack of two night kills last night. So Maenara probably has some scum knowledge about the setup no matter how much she says that it's what should be expected. I wouldn't want to lynch Maenara on that alone, but since she jumped on the (in my opinion) ill founded Shinori train, I think this is enough circumstantial evidence to at least warrant putting some pressure on her.

[Jun]

There are some players like dividizzle and buildermar who are slipping through the net of my focus. I'll try to get around to some ISOs later and pick out some of my reads more concretely within a few days.

Also, for now I trust the masons. I have never seen scum claim masons because it's really risky and hard to pull off.

[Jun]

So…since that post of yours was so delightfully waffley, I’m gonna try to shed some light on your thought process.

Players on the Shinori Wagon Day 2:
Elieson, Enigma, Buldermar, Smashbard, Maenara, Hiraki, Numbers

If you believe the Mason claim, and don’t believe Numbers to be scum. This leaves Buldermar, Enigma, Hiraki & Maenara as suspects for opportunistic scum. From your analysis.

Players on Numbers Wagon Day 1:
Dividizzle, Slandaar, Maenara, Smashbard, Buldermar, Theomoaner, Elieson.

If you believe the Mason claim, and we know Slandaar is dead, this leaves Dividizzle, Maenara, Buldermar & Theomoaner as suspects for opportunistic scum. From your analysis.


Thus, by correlation, this breaks down your scumreads like thus:

Buldermar, Hiraki, Enigma, Maenara, Dividizzle and Theomoaner are more than likely scummy in your eyes.

Buldermar & Maenara are present on both wagons. Making them quite possibly your top two scumreads.

But in Post #717, you claim that Enigma & Pacman are your two biggest scumreads. Only one of which was present on the Shinori wagon, with Pacman not being on any of your wagons where you’ve called out scum leading sheep town astray.

At least four of these people should be in your scumpile, if you believe there is a team of 4.

Leaving room for only two of these players to be construed as sheeping town, rather than opportunistic scum.

So since you’ve said that Pacman & Enigma are your top two scumreads, and Enigma was on at least one of your opposed Wagons,

it’s safe to say you believe Enigma is scum.

However, you’ve moved on to Maenara, citing that Enigmas wagon hasn’t gained any traction. But you don’t want to lynch him for the reasons stated, thinking he only deserves pressure, despite pointing out he probably has insider information, as well as him being on both of your opposed wagons.

This reads to me like scum Jun distancing himself from the Maenara partner wagon, while still voting for him to look town, while at the same time discouraging people from lynching him for the same reasons you’re voting for him.

Tell me why this isn’t true.

Which leaves Buldermar, who is the only other person who was on both wagons you opposed, yet you don’t seem very set on believing he is scum. So this reads to me like you believe he is just sheeping town.

So to break it down, from the above analysis, I can use my logicbrain to concur the following things:

You believe Enigma is scum for sure. Qwints is second scum out of nowhere. While you see Buldermar as sheeping town, and only want to pressure Maenara. Leaving Hiraki, Dividizzle or Theo as the other two scum.

So if you would be so kind, please elaborate your reads on Dividizzle, Theo and Hiraki. Are they apart of the sheeping town from their respective wagons or are they scum leading false lynches?

Your answers to my questions will greatly impact my read on you for the rest of the game.

I don't know why you're analyzing the numbers wagon from Day 1 instead of the pirate mollie wagon, but yes, I would agree with "Buldermar, Hiraki, Enigma, Maenara, Dividizzle and Theomoaner are more than likely scummy in your eyes." Except for whatever reason Buldermar, Hiraki, and Dividizzle got put in my leaning town pile a while ago and I have yet to see anything from them that jumps out at me to change my leaning town read. My reads aren't solely based on train analysis but more of a larger picture - I guess I picked out people I thought were scummy and realized oh hey this person is also sheeping onto lynches and this doesn't sit right with me.

My top scum reads are the slots for pmysterious, pacman, and maenara. imo tho, quints seems pretty town to me. I think my problem with evilpacman was for lurking so much since it was counter to the town meta of himself that he presented to me at the beginning of the game. So I'd like to drop the quints/evilpacman slot as scum for now and move it to the unsure pile. Leaving the PMysterious/combinatorial enigma and maenara as my top 2 scum reads.

hiraki and dividizzle I think don't post enough for me to develop a read without going back to do an iso which I'll get around to eventually. The thing about them that sticks out the most to me is that nothing about them sticks out to me besides hiraki's obvious attitude problems. Telo I believe is town for having similar reads to me and not sheeping onto what i thought to be an ill founded train on Shinori. Theomoaner I would buy as scum.

Hope this helps.

First, sorry for the burst of posts - I'm trying to get caught up, and I don't like doing the whole omnibus post thing.

Assuming three scum and a SK (That'd be a reasonable distribution, no?) ... This would, of course, necessitate a blocked kill this night, but that too is a possibility.

Three anti-town roles in a 16-player game is too few. Whether or not one is a SK is not what matters.

Everyone can see that it's

virtually guaranteed

there'd be at least 4 anti-town players, and I'm guessing that there's a SK or similar because

I find that most

16-man games would probably have some sort of 3rd party.

This sequence is also strange to me. Maenara, who "no likey" theory discussion (post 12) and is surrounded by "more experienced" players (post 91) assumes that there is a third part involved based on her experience with 16-man games - despite her only other games being 2 newbie games and 1 large theme. Set-up speculation at this stage seems unhelpful given the fact the only info we have is 2 flipped townies and 2 claimed masons.

An amateur player who dislikes theory discussion performing premature setup speculation SCREAMS hidden information to me. The roles aware of a blocked night kill would be:
1)any mafia member if the mafia kill didn't go through;
2)a serial killer whose kill didn't go through; or
3)a town power role who somehow gained hidden information (no one should speculate on this at this point for obvious reasons)

So, a cumulative list of my outstanding questions for

Maenara:
Q: What "valuable information" did we learn from lynching mollie?
Q: Is there a reason to not connect you and Telo?
Q: What was the point of post 775?

Smashbard:
Q: Did you claim because you were worried about not finishing bread-crumbing, or just because you worried about a Elieson speed-lynch?

Telo's replacement:
Q: How do you react to me saying I think you're scum alongside Maenara?

Jun:
Q: Are you bussing Maenara?

Wow good catch about Maenara's position on discussing the setup. I missed that.

And to answer your question, I would have to actually be scum with Maenara to be bussing her. But if it gets us to lynch scum, I don't care what you think since its not really convincing imo to hear someone say no, i'm not bussing Maenara since I'm not scum. I think Maenara's lynch would give us the most information and has the highest probability of hitting scum at the moment.

[Jun]

Also, in light of the masons reveal and following posts, I think Shinori actually is looking more like a scum slot. I would probably need to reread the thread because I've been reading everything assuming Shinori was town.

So I guess I'd say my top scum reads as of this moment are: Maenara, combinatorial enigma, Shinori
I'd be fine with lynching either one of them but I need to reread on Shinori a bit before I can feel confident in my assessment of him as scum.

[Jun]

Fine. My statement was hasty and partly motivated by the attempt to get people to do

anything], as we were stagnating. The lynch, while taking place, did not happen the way I'd assumed it would, and we have too few data points at current time to do much with it other than declaring Shinori an idiot for hammering. I really can't say more at current time; I don't remember more about the exact thoughts going through my head at the time.

Also, NJAC is still totally scum for doing nothing, reappearing at the most convenient of times, and being unwilling to do anything risky at all.

Oh, and Jun, but saying that at the moment just sounds like an OMGUS.

What did I say that was an OMGUS?

Isn't OMGUS like:
Slandaar: vote jun
Jun: OMGUS vote Slandaar

Except I'm not voting Slandaar. I'm voting you. Therefore, not OMGUS?

[Jun]

Whoops. It's smashbard who's voting me, not slandaar.

Isn't OMGUS like:
Smashbard: vote jun
Jun: OMGUS vote Smashbard

Except I'm not voting Smashbard. I'm voting you. Therefore, not OMGUS?

[Jun]

I think Shinori is at least top 3. This in conjunction with him displaying extreme anti-town behavior and a flip providing a decent amount of information (e.g. we can eliminate a decent amount of scum-team permutations) makes him the optimal person to lynch in my opinion.

Which scum-team permutations could we eliminate from a Shinori lynch?

While I do see your argument for a Hiraki-Telo-Jun connection given that Hiraki has 'defended' Telo and Jun by calling them inexperienced, Hiraki has done something similar for (thurhame/(now 10506670)). Hirkai also criticized Jun in 168. So, I think that there is some good evidence about connections between players here, but I'm reluctant to draw conclusions until we flip one of the group. I could certainly be persuaded to switch my vote to 10506670 or Telo since I think both of them have been scummy.

Thanks that saved me a job, I was going to continue with this analysis today, it was too much for last night. It was a tough task with all the one liners and side comments that had to picked through.
I disagree with Shinori not being abused with the "Can you say less than nothing" remark (#213). I suppose it depends what you mean by abuse.

Anyway I thought I would finish what I started and look for reference the other way round as it were.

Jun -> Telo, Apart from the one already mentioned there are two other references
#300. Telo in his unsure pile.
#717. "I think Telo is the most pro town person here, and am disappointed that he is replacing out."

What?!?!?!

Jun -> Hiraki

Just did an ISO of this game. I'll reread it non-iso'ed later. For now this will have to do.

My reads (in no particular order):

Town:

Hiraki

– very aggressive, similar to Majiffy (scum) in my Newbie Game who everyone thought was town. His actions seem pro town for now, so I am fine tentatively putting him as town because I think Majiffy’s play was the exception, not the rule, as players such as Thor665 even thought Majiffy was town.
....

Telo

– Like dividizzle, this fellow posts too infrequently for me to get a proper read. Could be lurking scum, could simply be busy. Let’s not forget that this slot posts that he will be able to post after this weekend.

Hikari is

tentative

town and yet from the next mention no action has been taken to solidify that read?

I don't know why you're analyzing the numbers wagon from Day 1 instead of the pirate mollie wagon, but yes, I would agree with "Buldermar, Hiraki, Enigma, Maenara, Dividizzle and Theomoaner are more than likely scummy in your eyes."

Except for whatever reason Buldermar, Hiraki, and Dividizzle got put in my leaning town pile a while ago and I have yet to see anything from them that jumps out at me to change my leaning town read.

My reads aren't solely based on train analysis but more of a larger picture - I guess I picked out people I thought were scummy and realized oh hey this person is also sheeping onto lynches and this doesn't sit right with me.
....

hiraki and dividizzle I think don't post enough for me to develop a read without going back to do an iso which I'll get around to eventually. The thing about them that sticks out the most to me is that nothing about them sticks out to me besides hiraki's obvious attitude problems.

Telo I believe is town for having similar reads to me and not sheeping onto what i thought to be an ill founded train on Shinori. Theomoaner I would buy as scum.

Now this is interesting. Here he says he has put Hiraki in his town pile but two paragraphs later (I edited one out) he doesn't have enough on Hiraki to get a read.

Telo, perhaps unsurprisingly, never mentioned Hiraki

I think you're looking for connections that aren't there and you're trying to scrape together weak evidence to get me mislynched. Just my $0.02.

[Jun]

@buldermar

Q: I need to know if you are or are not okay with lynching Shinori (no middle ground).

After the mason reveal, I am ok with lynching Shinori.

[Jun]

I think Maenara is at L-1 so anyone who wants to vote her further should make sure they know what they're doing if they vote.

[Jun]

I want Dividizzle to give his reads on Jun and Enigma.

I want Enigma to give his reads on Jun and Dividizzle.

I want Jun to give his reads on Dividizzle and Enigma.

Thank ye.

Combinatorial Enigma, Maenara, Shinori, and Theomoaner are my top scum reads. Dividizzle is a null read.

[Jun]

Jun: obvscum

Div: useless lurker (yeah, yeah, I know I'm being hypocritical by calling out someone else on that), not sure but leaning lurky town.

Is lurking to a grotesque degree, yet answers an hour after I asked?

Definitely scum too. Thanks for cementing my read.

And if we all agreed with my scum read on combinatorial enigma, why not lynch him instead of me?

[Jun]

I'll claim if someone announces intent to hammer.

Haven't had time to do more iso's, but make sure to look at Maenara, Theomoaner, Combinatorial Enigma, and Hiraki when I flip town. The first 3 are pushing too hard for my mislynch, and I think Hiraki is pushing too hard for my innocence to gain town cred.

[Jun]

If Jun flips town I will eat my hat.

Get ready to start eating. I want this guy lynched tomorrow if I get hammered today. He was my biggest scum read until I switched to Maenara since his train wasn't gaining traction. Maenara and everyone agrees that he seems really scummy, yet nobody wants to vote him with me. Interesting.

Scum. Scum. Scum.

[Jun]

d Shinori). Some of his defenses of other people are so blatant though, I do think his flip would provide an interesting lens with which to view previous interactions. I understand what Hiraki is saying that some of his actions that coul

Can anyone who says that my flip provides information tell me what information my town flip or scum flip provides? I'm very curious to know.

[Jun]

PMysterious/Combinatorial Enigma's slot is scum.

PMysterious lurked so much, claimed to offer reads by page 6 yet never did. Lurked and replaced out quietly, scum who couldn't take the heat?

There was someone who yelled at me for voting PMysterious for his/her lurking and not posting reads by the time we hit page 6. I quick skimmed the thread and couldn't find that post. Considering my scum read on PMysterious/Combinatorial Enigma's slot, I think the person who scolded me for that is likely to be Combinatorial Enigma's scum partner. <-Found it. It's Post #179 from evilPacMan: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p4328435

I had pretty strong scum reads on them both, qwints the replacement has turned that around a bit, but I would suspect that if one of the two flips scum, then the other will as well.

I still think Maenara has a good shot of being a 3rd party neutral or on a 3 man mafia team due to her comments on the scum distribution of the game. This person keeps attacking me, before she was attacking Shinori, and the day before attacking Pirate Mollie. I think it's scary how this one person keeps jumping on the low hanging fruit trains. Maenara probably has a good chance of being the 3rd party neutral because....

Qwints: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p4388637 and http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4388911
I think Quints mafia was considering his options in the first post, and then by the second post decided that getting rid of the 3rd party neutral is a good move this early in the game and it will give him town points to help make this case against Maenara the 3rd party neutral.

I think Pirate Mollie, Shinori, Hiraki, NJAC, and myself are easy mislynches for the scum to push in this game. That's why I think Maenara is scum for pushing Pirate Mollie, Shinori, and myself.

---
Back to some stuff on combinatorial Enigma:

Agreed. Especially given that he was the one who hammered Pirate.

Vote Shinori.

I don't like how combinatorial Enigma presents no arguments whatsoever against players for their scumminess except for "Player X is scum." Here he jumps on the shinori train which I think is definitely scum trying to go for a mislynch. I go back and forth on Shinori, but after reading some of the interactions between players, I'm seeing more of a connection between the qwints/combinatorial enigma slots and I don't think Shinori is part of that team. Thus he's turned into a town read for me. I caution you guys because scum WILL try to mislynch him. I have no doubt in my mind about that. The same applies for NJAC and Hiraki.

Q: Why did you not go back to voting Shinori? Considering that you initially switched to Elie, the mason claim should result in you voting Shinori again. Would you be willing to lynch Shinori? If not, why? Who would you rather see lynched: Shinori or Jun?

Okay so I finally got around to this.

I'd be willing to lynch either Jun or Shinori, but I'd prefer Jun. Jun seems to be pretty likely scum to me, whereas Shinori is just generally useless and I wouldn't be entirely surprised if he flipped town.

Reading the last few pages now.

Random Jun scum read pops out of nowhere, not backed up by any claims or evidence other than what seems like a simple gut argument. Displays going along with the wagons, not thinking for himself, or scum trying to simply go with the flow.

And that sums up exactly how I feel about Shinori. He's either scum or useless, and based on late D1 I'm leaning scum.

Still not liking his votes on Shinori. Especially since they aren't well explained.

Jun, why do you think my slot is scum (back in post 828)?

So PMyst was a lurker and dropped out, and I haven't been quite as active as I'd hoped because of college. That's all well and good, but your case beyond that doesn't hold up.

If you're trying to go after people who want to "fabricate" a case against Shinori, then try Elieson. I was pretty much just following Elie on that vote - if there's anyone in the town I actually believe, it's him. And I don't have an "attitude" that you can make a reasonable statement of beyond my argument with Telo, in which she was frankly being unreasonable. I'd be very interested to see why you think her slot's town at all, let alone the MOST town.

You're my top scum suspect at the moment, followed by Telo's slot and maybe NJAC.

VOTE: Jun

Ellieson has been outed as a Mason, so the people left that I think were fabricating a case against Shinori are combinatorial enigma, buldermar, Maenara, hiraki. One of those have got to be scum. Alternatively, I notice that numbers only votes Shinori after his train is dissipating. If Shinori flips scum, I'd look closer at numbers. Numbers also jumps onto my train after Shinori dissipates completely

Vote analysis, now that I have a chance to look at it seems to me like Maenara/Shinori/Numbers have some kind of connection since Numbers doesn't vote Shinori until his train passes and he doesn't vote Maenara either. Those three also show up on the Pirate mollie train.

Gotta do some iso's on Shinori/Numbers in light of this, but I don't know if I'll have time before I get lynched/the deadline.

--

tl;dr
My best guess at the scum team is combinatorial enigma/qwints OR shinori/maenara/numbers.

[Jun]

I want to hear what elieson has to say about Shinori flipping VT. The more I think about it the less genuine the mason claim seems to me. Why did they out themselves when Elieson was only at 4 votes? That seems a little forced to me, but I'm not sure if they're just bad at being masons.

I guess both of my scum team theories have been debunked after seeing the VT flips... So I guess based on Smashbard's Post #1114 and speculating that the masons could be scum, Buldermar, Theomoaner would be my next scum team pick. I think it's too dangerous to blindly trust the "masons" and a "mason led" voting block at this point in the game. I'll also try to look at dividizzle and some other people in the coming week. But first I want to hear from Elieson.

[Jun]

I wonder what kind of wine goes well with a hat. after saying you'd eat your hat if Shin was town. The only reason you werent lynched for that was due to time and Shin being an anti town policy lynch

That was in reference to me. I forgot about that. Thanks for reminding me. I think it's a huge scumslip.

VOTE: -vote Combinatorial Enigma

[Jun]

Numbers, why vote me instead of Combinatorial Enigma, the guy who scumslipped? If Combinatorial Enigma does, indeed flip scum, that clears me of being mafia. I think CE is at L-3.

Also Numbers is likely to be scum.

[Jun]

I don't like Jun's post in #1152 about being cleared by a scum flip of enigma. It seems odd to feel the need to point that out about yourself. I also am starting to worry about basing such an important vote on this hat joke as numbers pointed out above.

Vote: Jun

So why is Maenara allowed to post a huge long paragraph about how she is unlikely to be scum due to the nightkills? But I'm not allowed to say a CE scumflip clears me? Interesting connection between the two of you. I'd posit that if dividizzle flips scum, Maenara could be scum bussing him as some WIFOM tactic. I'd be fine voting dividizzle or CE today, preferably CE. But just wanted to throw that out there.

[Jun]

So people are saying CE is town b/c PMysterious wouldn't drop a game as scum? I'm not sure I like that reasoning since he could just be overwhelemed with too many games and it would be bad for us to drop a strong lead just due to meta.

[Jun]

Maenara is pretty scummy, but bearing in mind the August 10th join date, I think we should cut her some slack at least until a CE flip. That being said, CE also has a pretty recent join date so I'm less confident that what we picked up on was a scumslip instead of just a new player being new. Maybe someone else can weigh in on this. I think for now, my vote is still fine on CE. I guess atm my town reads are: smashbard, eleison, numbers, hiraki, njac, buldermar. Maenara, CE, dividizzle are my scum picks, and I need to read more of theomoaner and thebuttonmen who I've kind of been neglecting in my reads of this thread.

Oh yeah, I meant to post this:
I think Hiraki is town, but #1182 would make me consider Hiraki as scum bussing a partner if Maenara flips scum.

[Jun]

Here, some questions to help me clarify my reads :

@Maenara: what happened with your case on Jun? why to pick dividizzle instead? and what do you think about the Masons?

@Eleison: I would really like to hear more from you, care to elaborate about your case on CE?

@numbers: you didn't answer why you think Maenara is town, care to answer?

@Hiraki: what do you think about the Masons and Jun? I'd also like to hear your read on me.

@TBM: you need to take a stance. What do you think about the Masons and Maenara? What have you found after rereading the Shinori's wagon you also supported?

@Theo: I agree with your comments about night actions. Do you think Mae is scummier than CE?

@Buldermar: you were very pro-town yesterday but you have not done enough today imo. Any comments about the Shinori wagon you led? Also I'm expecting you to elaborate about your sheeping Maenara with the Divid wagon.

@Jun: you ramble a lot, but I still see you as town. Take a stance on this: Masons claim is true or false?

@Dividizzle I see you took a stance, but why Jun instead of CE, even more when you said something like: "...that could easily be a scumslip especially considering the implicit gloating"?

@Enigma: Care to elaborate about your case on Masons fakeclaiming? and why to choose Smashbard instead of Eleison?

@Smashbard: sorry, no questions for you yet

Masons claim I hesitantly accept as true for now, but if one of them doesn't die and flip mason in the coming days, it will raise my suspicions.

[Jun]

[quote="In post 1184I think we should cut her some slack at least until a CE flip.

What bearing does CE's flip have on your Mae read? Why do you want to let her slide until then?[/quote]

Sorry, I didn't notice this question. I think that CE and Maenara are both scummy, however I believe CE is more scummy than Maenara so I want to lynch CE today (letting Maenara slide for today) with the intention of picking back up the Maenara train tomorrow. I don't know what CE's flip would have on Maenara's read, only that I find CE more scummy due to his hat comment.

[Jun]

I don't care much about the slip, but I want him dead regardless.

Also, is that video-posting even within site rules? Isn't it communication outside the game kinda... Banned?

#Do not bring outside influences into the game - this includes threats, bribes, wagers, promises, alliances, etc. Using knowledge from previous games is perfectly acceptable, but try not to carry grudges from one game to another.
# Do not talk outside the game thread about an ongoing game except where explicitly allowed to do so by your role/moderator. Likewise, do not use bbcode to hide secret messages - this equates to discussion outside the thread.

There is no threat, bribe, wager, promise, alliance, hidden message, or indeed anything serious at all in the video post.

I'm just having some fun.

Yes, there IS a bribe/promise in your video. That you'll attempt to eat your hat if I flip town. I don't think that's allowed, especially since now NJAC wants to lynch me for the lolz. NJAC either is foolishly confident that I'm a town read, or has scum knowledge that I am town.

What if I made a video and said I would eat a shoe if all the mafia just -suicided right now? I just don't like the precedent of this or the added incentive that people now have to lynch me just so they can see you attempt to eat a hat.

[Jun]

Also a bit unrelated, but I feel like I've seen that same hat (and you?) in another game. Can't remember if it was on this site or on another, but someone made a promise to eat a hat if someone flipped town and then they posted a picture of them attempting but in the end ate a candy hat. Not sure if you're the same guy, or if this is some weird deja-vu moment.

[Jun]

I don't care much about the slip, but I want him dead regardless.

Also, is that video-posting even within site rules? Isn't it communication outside the game kinda... Banned?

#Do not bring outside influences into the game - this includes threats, bribes, wagers, promises, alliances, etc. Using knowledge from previous games is perfectly acceptable, but try not to carry grudges from one game to another.
# Do not talk outside the game thread about an ongoing game except where explicitly allowed to do so by your role/moderator. Likewise, do not use bbcode to hide secret messages - this equates to discussion outside the thread.

There is no threat, bribe, wager, promise, alliance, hidden message, or indeed anything serious at all in the video post.

I'm just having some fun.

Yes, there IS a bribe/promise in your video. That you'll attempt to eat your hat if I flip town. I don't think that's allowed, especially since now NJAC wants to lynch me for the lolz. NJAC either is foolishly confident that I'm a town read, or has scum knowledge that I am town.

What if I made a video and said I would eat a shoe if all the mafia just -suicided right now? I just don't like the precedent of this or the added incentive that people now have to lynch me just so they can see you attempt to eat a hat.

If people are taking me seriously enough that a video of eating a hat influences their vote, that's pretty fucking anti-town on their part.

PEdit: okay NJAC said he was joking about that. Good.

There's no precedent being set, there's no incentive for anything unless someone doesn't have any opinions and doesn't care about the game. I'm just doing this because it amuses me.

And anyway my reading of that rule is that it only applies to deliberate attempts of "do x for me, and I'll do something gamebreaking". Whereas my video is "if this ends up happening, receive nothing of value."

I would say that you're scum trying to push for a modkill, but I don't think anyone can be dumb enough to do that after the mod said that I was well within the rules (post 1205).

Also a bit unrelated, but I feel like I've seen that same hat (and you?) in another game. Can't remember if it was on this site or on another, but someone made a promise to eat a hat if someone flipped town and then they posted a picture of them attempting but in the end ate a candy hat. Not sure if you're the same guy, or if this is some weird deja-vu moment.

I've never used that hat, or any other hat, for this purpose before. Weird deja vu moment.

Do you even think I will flip scum? Why include some random gimmick specifically if I get lynched? The huge fuss you've raised about this doesn't sit well with me at all.

[Jun]

Is it at all possible that this is a cult v. masons game with Maenara as the sk performing kills every night?

-This accounts for Maenara insisting that there's a third party killer in the game despite only 1 night kill each night.
-Assuming the masons are who they say they are, and assuming cult mechanics that I'm familiar with, cult v. mason with say, 2 cult, 1 cult leader, 1 sk, and the rest as citizens, cult leader can recruit 1 person a night, gets bludgeoned to death if he recruits a mason. Basically this is a "hidden" 2kpn game where cultists become converted and I guess we already outed the masons, our only check against the cult.

Is cult allowed in a "large normal" setup?

[Jun]

Is it at all possible that this is a cult v. masons game with Maenara as the sk performing kills every night?

-This accounts for Maenara insisting that there's a third party killer in the game despite only 1 night kill each night.
-Assuming the masons are who they say they are, and assuming cult mechanics that I'm familiar with, cult v. mason with say, 2 cult, 1 cult leader, 1 sk, and the rest as citizens, cult leader can recruit 1 person a night, gets bludgeoned to death if he recruits a mason. Basically this is a "hidden" 2kpn game where cultists become converted and I guess we already outed the masons, our only check against the cult.

Is cult allowed in a "large normal" setup?

Whoops.
Should say:
Assuming the masons are who they say they are, and assuming cult mechanics that I'm familiar with, cult v. mason with say, 2

masons

, 1 cult leader, 1 sk, and the rest as citizens

[Jun]

I don't care much about the slip, but I want him dead regardless.

Also, is that video-posting even within site rules?

Isn't it communication outside the game kinda... Banned?

#Do not bring outside influences into the game - this includes threats, bribes, wagers, promises, alliances, etc. Using knowledge from previous games is perfectly acceptable, but try not to carry grudges from one game to another.
# Do not talk outside the game thread about an ongoing game except where explicitly allowed to do so by your role/moderator. Likewise, do not use bbcode to hide secret messages - this equates to discussion outside the thread.

There is no threat, bribe, wager, promise, alliance, hidden message, or indeed anything serious at all in the video post.

I'm just having some fun.

Request that the Mod resolves the question of whether or not CombinatorialEnigma's actions fell outside site rules.

If they don't, 's all good, but I wasn't sure if you saw it while it was non-bolded.

they were well within the rules

Yes, there IS a bribe/promise in your video. That you'll attempt to eat your hat if I flip town. I don't think that's allowed

, especially since now NJAC wants to lynch me for the lolz. NJAC either is foolishly confident that I'm a town read, or has scum knowledge that I am town.

What if I made a video and said I would eat a shoe if all the mafia just -suicided right now? I just don't like the precedent of this or the added incentive that people now have to lynch me just so they can see you attempt to eat a hat.

There's no precedent being set, there's no incentive for anything unless someone doesn't have any opinions and doesn't care about the game. I'm just doing this because it amuses me.

Do you even think I will flip scum?

Why include some random gimmick specifically if I get lynched? The huge fuss you've raised about this doesn't sit well with me at all.

For the record,

my problem with Enigma posting that video is that it gives him a downright ridiculous advantage.

Body language and similar are incredibly important to communication, so

the fact that he posts a video of himself is as close to cheating as you can get without it apparently being so.

If another video is posted, I'm replacing out

, because that is just bullshit.

1) Maenara attempts to get Enigma modkilled over the video.
2) Enigma clarifies that he is just having fun.
3) Maenara ignores this clarification and makes a second attempt to get Enigma modkilled over the video.
4) mykonian clarifies that the video is

well within the rules

.
5) Jun claims that the video is not within the rules despite this clarification. Jun claims it gives an added incentive that people now lynch him despite Enigma clarifying that he is just having fun.
6) Enigma, once again, clarifies that he is just having fun, that there is no precedent being set, that there is no incentive for anything unless someone doesn't have any opinions and doesn't care about the game.
7) Jun asks why Enigma would include some random gimmick, despite Enigma having clarified two times already that he did so for the fun. Jun blames Enigma for "the huge fuss you've raised about this".
8) Maenara claims that the video gives Enigma a downright ridiculous advantage, and that it is

as close to cheating as you can get without it apperently being so

, despite the fact that a) Enigma twice clarified that he did it for the fun and b) mykonian already clarified that the video is well within the rules.
9) Maenara makes a threat that she will be replacing out should another video be posted despite the fact that a) the owner of the video clarified twice that it was made for fun and b) the mod in the game clarified that it was well within the rules. In other words, Maenara made a threat that she will be replacing out should someone do something that is

well within the rules

.

I sincerely hope that nobody here will refrain from doing something that is within the rules due to a threat of someone replacing out.

Maenara, your continuous attempt to a) get Enigma banned and b) justify your attempt of getting Enigma banned looks scummy to me, and I personally dislike your threat, although that in itself is probably a null.
Jun, please start thinking before you post.

VOTE: Maenara

I personally don't want to play in this game if there are any more videos.

[Jun]

Since cult has been ruled out, I still feel like we should lynch CE. Like someone said, he's trying to make a joke and make light of a very serious scumslip he had earlier. I would suspect that buldermar is scum with CE due to defending him in #1225 by emphasizing how CE's behavior was just a joke. So antitown to have scum knowledge about what I would flip and joke about it like CE did. Why are we not lynching him!!!!? What does a maenara lynch tell us?

A CE lynch hits the most probable scum AND tells us if buldermar is also likely to be scum or not.

[Jun]

Regardless of how much Buldermar is trying to talk us out of it.

When did I try to talk anyone out of anything or into anything today?

You tried to talk everyone out of a CE lynch because, as you claim, he is only joking. Defend him harder pls.

Since cult has been ruled out, I still feel like we should lynch CE. Like someone said, he's trying to make a joke and make light of a very serious scumslip he had earlier. I would suspect that buldermar is scum with CE due to defending him in #1225 by emphasizing how CE's behavior was just a joke. So antitown to have scum knowledge about what I would flip and joke about it like CE did. Why are we not lynching him!!!!? What does a maenara lynch tell us?

A CE lynch hits the most probable scum AND tells us if buldermar is also likely to be scum or not.

Jun, please start thinking before you post.

Also please stop belittling me. It's not sportsmanlike behavior.

[Jun]

Regardless of how much Buldermar is trying to talk us out of it.

When did I try to talk anyone out of anything or into anything today?

You tried to talk everyone out of a CE lynch because, as you claim, he is only joking. Defend him harder pls.

Since cult has been ruled out, I still feel like we should lynch CE. Like someone said, he's trying to make a joke and make light of a very serious scumslip he had earlier. I would suspect that buldermar is scum with CE due to defending him in #1225 by emphasizing how CE's behavior was just a joke. So antitown to have scum knowledge about what I would flip and joke about it like CE did. Why are we not lynching him!!!!? What does a maenara lynch tell us?

A CE lynch hits the most probable scum AND tells us if buldermar is also likely to be scum or not.

Jun, please start thinking before you post.

Also please stop belittling me. It's not sportsmanlike behavior.

Alright Jun. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Read, and read closely:

I only claimed that the hat incident was a joke.

Provide a quote in which I explicitly tried to talk everyone (or just anyone) out of a CE lynch or otherwise claimed that his alignment is town.

You state that I defended him in #1225 by emphasizing how his behavior was just a joke. I disagree - I merely claimed that the hat incident is a joke and not a scumslip, but this is not equivalent to suggesting that he is town. I've not commented on his alignment or suggested that he should not be lynched. My emphasis has been on the manner in which Maenara tried to get him banned.

A CE lynch does not "tell us" if I am scum or not, because I'm in no way tied to the alignment of CE.


I

will

ignore you or display condescending behavior should you continue with your outrageous accusations and fallacious conclusions.

I have half a mind to ask for a replacement after the rude behavior of Buldermar and CE towards me. I ask you kindly yet firmly to please check your behavior because things you have done have made this game just not fun for me.

I'm going to be v/la for the weekend. I do not want to lynch a mason, and I think Buldermar is definitely scum for trying to push us to do that. I want either CE or Buldermar lynched today, but will not be able to check back until Monday.

[Jun]

Back from v/la. I trust the masons, and I also believe CE is scum. Therefore my vote shall stay.

I don't advocate a mason lynch anyway. Let the mafia refrain from killing the masons to leave two piles of wifom for us. If scum claimed masons and win as mason claimers good for them. I wouldn't mind losing to mafia that claimed masons. However, I trust in smashbard and Elieson because at any time we could have decided to lynch them to disprove their claim and at that point they're both dead. Additionally, if we have an investigative PR, they probably checked one of the masons. If nobody has stepped forward to say they got a guilty on the masons, I think it's not unreasonable to assume that a cop got an innocent on one of the masons and is waiting to reveal his results after getting another result.

[Jun]

It's 100% the hat joke for me. And the taunting that followed.

I can go try to dig up the other hat joke I saw earlier. I forget where exactly though.....

[Jun]

Hi Majiffy. Glad to see you here, especially since I believe in the mason claim. You replacing in as a mason helps in two ways:
1. If scum kills you then we'll know for sure smashbard is a town mason.
2. If scum doesn't kill you, then we have a really good player alive and on the town's side.

imo, you're the best person who could have replaced in just now.

I think my distrust of buldermar and theomoaner derives from their interactions with CE and insistence that CE is simply joking about the hat. After seeing #1386 from numbers, add one more to that group. Oh, and Hiraki. This is making less of a solid case against buldermar/theomoaner/CE/numbers as scum than I had hoped.... I thought I was onto something for a moment.

In any case, I still believe CE is the most likely to be scum, and once he flips scum, I think we'll have some good new suspects in the aforementioned players.

Very relieved to see majiffy here, and very relieved majiffy believes me to be town.

[Jun]

NJAC, why won't you vote CE again?

[Jun]

This is ridiculous. CE is the biggest scum, anti-town player and yet everyone in this game refuses to lynch him. All he's doing is trolling, yet now Smashbard removes his vote from CE? CE, Buldermar, and Majiffy are just flaming each other with rude and inappropriate language that I was also directed at me a few pages back.

-request replacement

Sorry, I just can't play with Buldermar and CE anymore because of their continued rude behavior in this thread, to me and to the other players in this game. It's frankly unacceptable and leaves a really bad taste in my mouth about this game.