NY 170: Georgetown II (Game Over)

[Thor665]

Sounds like a plan.

Vote: ABR

Why are we lynching him?

[Thor665]

A bunch of reasons. I remember he made a bad vote on my wagon making me want to lynch either Chevre/ABR, he made a pretty bad push on Slandaar while pushing emeraldemon and then ended up going on another bad wagon. The right side of my face has swollen to the size of a golf ball and I have a hint if fever.

Post from dream land.

How many games have you ever played with ABR? I'm not sure 'illogical and bad play' is really a valid scumtell on him, and though I think this says something about his playstyle that he may wish to change I'm not sure it's a solid reason to lynch him barring something else.

[Thor665]

Unvote: ABR

My bluff has been called.

[Thor665]

I have no frame of reference for that comment. Clarify?

[Thor665]

I'd still love for you to break the answer down for me regardless.
I haven't read anything but what's on this page really, so I could use the assist.

[Thor665]

There is still Chevre. Lyching him could be a good idea. That I didn't unvote until I had a defensible excuse post is still rope worthy.

Are you not happy with your ABR vote?

[Thor665]

to go back to emerald in case I was wrong about Slandaar*

Hey, Albert, what's up with all this scummy play I hear you did Day 1?

[Thor665]

It wouldn't be the first time Slandaar has screwed town over, Thor.

Oh cry me a river, Al, you practically try to hand scum a mislynch every time you're town and then whine that it is other town player's faults for lynching you ignoring that multiple town across multiple games find you scummy (hint: they're not *all* bad players )

What's your read on inHimshallibe?

Also, do you think your wagon is scum driven or annoyed town driven?

[Thor665]

@The Fonz - yours is the first post that feels clearly townish. Talk to me here, what are your thoughts on the gamestate now and/or yesterday. I'd like some context but will admit I'm far too lazy to actually read the whole game to get it.

[Thor665]

Also I don't get why people are replacing into games if they aren't going to read the game? That meta needs to stop; you aren't really being helpful if you replace in and don't read, you're just looking the part.

Well...first off, I'm pretty sure I started that meta.
Second off, I'll admit, besides me, I've never seen anyone else do it.

Third off - what part of the game that's important do you feel I'm missing by not reading Day 1?

[Thor665]

Hey Thor I didn't like Brian skies that much yesterday can you show me what yah got.

Why was Brian scummy in your mind?

Also, why, if Brian/ABR did the same thing, would you rather vote me than ABR?

[Thor665]

I can side with that.

Vote: Nobody Special

Was he on the Emo wagon? I'd kind of like to vote someone who was on the Emo wagon.

[Thor665]

By the description the Emo wagon smells like it was filled with scum.
Why, do you think it was a pro-town wagon?

[Thor665]

I think Emo is scum. The wagon dissipated very quickly once an alternate target was found, that being the Chevre wagon.

What's the scum case on her besides wagon dissipation? Or is that the case?

There is still Chevre. Lyching him could be a good idea. That I didn't unvote until I had a defensible excuse post is still rope worthy.

Are you not happy with your ABR vote?

I'm happy with it.

Then why the Chevre soft sell when the ABR wagon is unopposed?

[Thor665]

Sadly, it is well within ABR's meta to...well, flat out lie to make a case when he is town.

I will agree this means I always want a Vig in games with him in it, but it is an awkward 'scumtell' to apply to him because his town play is exactly that brutally anti-town.

[Thor665]

Don't really care, I'm voting on the 'not ABR' wagon to see what happens. I thought I was pretty clear about that.

[Thor665]

I am, I didn't think I was being subtle about that.

[Thor665]

I'm just curious why you would defend ABR using the argument that he's playing within his meta, but do the same for NS.

Because the ABR wagon felt bad - the NS one doesn't.
Again, I don't feel like I've been subtle in my thoughts here, I came around pretty quick to not liking the ABR wagon, and I felt my transition was rather super obvious when it happened.
Conversely, why are you so worried about the NS wagon, but are totally fine with the ABR one?

Thor665: Basically, I feel like if you don't read Day 1 before starting Day 2, aren't you essentially starting on Day 1 again? Day 1 in all its Fortune gives town a sense of how everyone is playing and posting, plus a plethora of votes and reasons. That feels condescending to say because I find it so simple.

So...what you think I might miss is "a sense of how everyone is playing and posting" which is something I can get from, y'know, asking people their takes on Day 1 (which, amusingly, already has people disagreeing about how Day 1 went down - which is pro town to have discussion about) and also I miss "votes and reasons" which, if I need to, I can iso those specific bits out later if wanted.

So...yes, I think my method has validity in how I'm doing it.

Were there any big events that you think I missed? I mean, not like generic "Sense" events but "these three posts" type events? Anything you think might really affect my read of one or more players? I'd read that stuff, if you can dial it in. What do you think, of import, happened Day 1?

My initial reasoning for my emogirl vote is that I found her suspicious plus her lynch would be rife with information.

Is she still a good lynch now?

In that catchup post, Fonz mentions how emogirl wagon supporters have forgotten about her, and I think there are multiple reasons:
a) most of the suspicion stemmed from her playstyle rather than actual scummy things, but also
b) I reiterate that after her wagon's death she did sort of disappear, and then through the Slandaar/emeraldemon/Brian debate her posts were kind of fluffy (she referenced, out of the blue, an essay on synergy?). I think this is scummy.

a) That seems a bad reason to suspect someone.
b) So you're saying she avoided discussing the main wagons?

@Emogirl - I note that you disagree with Chevre - can you quote me a moment or two of you discussing the main wagons once you were no longer the focus?

I do not understand how a discussion of my meta vs. ABR's meta is in any way useful.

That's not really what the discussion is about.

What is your read on Chevre?

Thor scum game is top notch but when you jump on him like that it must frustrate him a little inside.

Why must that frustrate me to have my scumbuddy jump on me? I'm pretty sure part of my usual commentary to scumbuddies is 'feel free to bus me' so I'm curious why you think this.

[Zekrom] has to go now before it becomes an issue later in the game. Would also be willing to lynch ABR for similar reasons.

That being said, Fonz's wall against NS and ABR is quite compelling.

So, you are willing to lynch Zekrom or ABR for the same reasons?
Also, Fonz's wall against ABR is compelling.
...why wouldn't you vote ABR right now? Why are you voting Zekrom first?

Unvote: Nobody Special
Vote: Aegor

Serious vote.

[Thor665]

Ineffectual town.

Why town?

Also, Fonz's wall against ABR is compelling.

What?

Albert was on every major wagon except Brian's. He jumped the first two, but started the Slandaar and Emerald wagons and is now imho being scapegoated for them.

or are you reading something else?

Why are you skimming the game?

When I refer to jump I mean his smothering you with buddy tells (passive chainsawing of your wagon,coaching ). It's pretty obvious he isn't bussing.

Why would that bother me?

[Thor665]

I find zekrom more scummy and I want him gone with more urgency than I want ABR gone.

Why?
Your posts seemed to express equality between them though mentioned that someone else's commentary was favorable to you, and that was about ABR, so why do you believe the less supported wagon should go first, and why did you vote it over an ABR wagon?

Why are you skimming the game?

I ISO'd The Fonz. I seriously have no idea what post you are referring to.

How about you read the post you're quoting me from again, and then answer why you're skimming the game.
Especially if you want me to believe you're town.

[Thor665]

The fact that I voted for zekrom tells those who are not brain-dead that I do not view the two players as equally deserving of imminent expulsion from the game.

It certainly suggests that you might have had a reason, even if you seem unable to express it - yes.
I'm just looking to have it expressed.

I already told you why zekrom got my vote over ABR.

Well...you said you wanted him lynched with more urgency. But that should be part of the conclusion. you think he's more likely scum, therefore you want him lynched more.
I'm curious how you got to the 'more likely scum' part - clarify?

[Thor665]

How about you read the post you're quoting me from again, and then answer why you're skimming the game.

Already done.
I'm not skimming, but I asked you about the post, since you asked Aegor about voting ABR.

I don't think your question to me suggests you read my post that you're complaining about.
It suggests you skimmed it. If you read it fully - why did you ask me what you asked me?

[Thor665]

I read it twice. After making 1036, I read up again and saw the comment about Fonz's wall, and asked about it.

If you read it twice, why in the world are you asking me about it as though it's something *I* believe?

Well it would bother me If someone was giving off a lot of association tells. Then again when I was panicking our scum game together you keeped cool and helped push me to end game with the wifom you set up.

So...basically your only evidence is that I don't act that way.
Why are you voting me again?

Wait, when did I write a 'Wall against ABR?'

Do people even read what's inside quotes anymore?

Completely bogus reasoning for voting ABR. And his posting will never provide us with a read. And check our mutual game history.

What is his 'bogus' reason for voting ABR, a slot you think is scummy?
Also, what about your game history should I bother looking for when I fakeclaim that I searched it?

[Thor665]

Bulbazak and Zekrom currently gut level scums.

vote: Bulbazak

What's your read on Aegor?
Would you vote him?

[Thor665]

...wait, what?

[Thor665]

Mod - v/la 2/11-2/14

I may manage some posting in there, but with the way my work schedule is...

Also, as a reminder to mysel - I skipped 44-45.
$5 says I call all those pages boring anyway.

[Thor665]

Unvote: Aegor
Vote: Inhimshallibe

[Thor665]

I will agree he is pretty terrible.

[Thor665]

@Fonz - what's your take on Inhim?

@Sotty - how would you feel about a shift to Inhim?

I'm asking because I'll admit to a gut town on Zdenek right now. I could possibly even swing over to a Nobody at this stage because...meh, I don't really have a take there one way or the other and I like that better than ABR or Zdenek as a lynch choice.

[Thor665]

OK, on inHim, I'm leaning town. Has gut reads and strong town reads, which aren't that common among scum.

I'm really hoping I'm misunderstanding this. Are you saying having gut reads and strong town reads...makes him town?
Could you at least, if this is what you're saying, back it up with meta specific to him?

I am on most of the top three lists; just lynch me today./quote]
I have to say, for me, this is a screaming scumtell.
Dear gawd.

@Mod - would you be amenable to a Wisdom of the Masses (or crowd, or whatever it is called) towards Zekrom?

I personally think about five minutes looking at his current games, and his play in them, should showcase that he had no business replacing in here, and is going to hurt whichever faction his slot belongs to.

[Thor665]

OK, on inHim, I'm leaning town. Has gut reads and strong town reads, which aren't that common among scum.

I'm really hoping I'm misunderstanding this. Are you saying having gut reads and strong town reads...makes him town?
Could you at least, if this is what you're saying, back it up with meta specific to him?

I am on most of the top three lists; just lynch me today.

I have to say, for me, this is a screaming scumtell.
Dear gawd.

@Mod - would you be amenable to a Wisdom of the Masses (or crowd, or whatever it is called) towards Zekrom?

I personally think about five minutes looking at his current games, and his play in them, should showcase that he had no business replacing in here, and is going to hurt whichever faction his slot belongs to.

[Thor665]

it seems most people are voting him for a playstyle rather than actual suspicions

Bingo, bango, boingo.

[Thor665]

I mean, it's Day 2. We ought to be able to call the person we're lynching scummy.

[Thor665]

Town want to lynch the person they are voting and should be happy when people get on the wagon with them.

Meh, I actually take that as a towntell, honestly. He didn't have an end agenda in his lynch preferences, he was looking for behavior he read as scummy. Yeah?

[Thor665]

Conversely, what you're describing, *is* what I would expect from scum.

[Thor665]

Thor, do you actually think that people being happy when the wagon they are on gets more votes are scummy?

It depends on the type of happiness.
But dropping suspicion or town reading people simply for the act of supporting a wagon they are on? Yeah, I find that to trend scummy.

I acknowledged my prod. Also I feel bad for zekrom but his taken on to many games for his experience level.

You shouldn't feel bad for him. Theoretically he is a man full grown and should be able to either commit or not to commit to things.
He has failed in his commitment, and did so because of only actions under his own control - that makes him a bad player who frankly I'd love to see black listed from replacing and put on a sharp game limit because...seriously.

[Thor665]

According to the ban/restrictions thread he already has been.

Thank gawd.

@Aegor - other than him being a lurksack...why?

Also - you are scummy. Shock.

[Thor665]

Being a lurksack is more than enough. Meastro was not a strong read either way. I would be willing to lynch all lurksacks.

So...your top person that you want to lynch...you can't even tell me why you think he's scum, and he is in fact on your lynch list simply due to policy?

Can you explain a scum read on the player you find most scummy whether or not you wish to lynch them first?

[Thor665]

I don't know about you, but I think I'm going to wait until we know whether Zekrom is going to be replaced.

Why? Do you find the slot scummy or not scummy? Because if scummy - you should vote it regardless of replacement, and if not scummy then you shouldn't be voting it, and if somewhere inbetween...vote, y'know, whoever you think *is* scummiest.

What is going on with this game?

[Thor665]

[Thor665]

Please don't tell me you're another person using smilies as a tell on me.
I keep hearing that one in all sorts of iterations and I think it gets worse every time.

[Thor665]

I acknowledged my prod. Also I feel bad for zekrom but his taken on to many games for his experience level.

as me being an IE how am inot experienced enough ?

Because you haven't figured out how many games you can be in without adversely affecting the quality of your play.
This does work on the presumption that your play can be better, naturally, but I don't think that's much of a stretch.

@Zdenek - again, thank gawd.

[Thor665]

I'd love to be able to share that read - what have you got?

[Thor665]

I think that if he was scum with people wanting to lynch him just for being in the game he would have either responded with a post that would helped him with not getting lynched or that he'd have replaced out.

So, basically as scum you would expect him to "give any damn at all" and as town you wouldn't? Because it would *also* be good town play to respond in a way that is helpful or to replace out, yeah?

[Thor665]

I'm thinking of the scum survival instinct more than him giving any damn at all.

Meh. Survival is as survival does. Town who decides their death are okay due to their lurking are just as bad as scum who decide the same in my opinion - and the base mindset is the same as well.

Do you have a take on Aegor? I am hating Aegor, no one else seems to even have him on the radar particularly. What's your read on him?

[Thor665]

@Mod - also, v/la 2/18-2/21

Again, I may or may not manage a post, but it's probably safer to get on the record books that my access and time will be limited. This general lurka-derp from me will assuredly end by March if not sooner. Weekends should remain fine also.

[Thor665]

Thor, what are you talking about? I was one of, if not the, most mentioned players in the top three lists. Plenty of other people hate me.

No they don't. They have you as a soft tertiary at best. There is no effort besides mine about discussing your immediate death.

[Thor665]

Still quite content with dead Aegor.

[Thor665]

For the record, my desire to lynch someone at all and the impending deadline are the only reasons I am okay with my own lynch.

So, with deadline beating down the door of four days away, your lynch is better than...working on any other lynch.


I have too many people I want to see dead and too many of them clamoring to be on that list due to policy reasons alone.
I honestly sort of thought when I got into this game that, due to the setup, it would be full of semi-sane players as opposed to the twinks currently infesting the site.
I am disappoint.

[Thor665]

Meh.

Unvote: InhimshallIbe
Vote: Aegor

Let's ride this one, I'm starting not to even care.

[Thor665]

Get real and do not call me insane. Do you really think that I could swing a lynch in three days? I have been clamoring for votes on Zekrom, kabooom, and NS for some time now. No traction AT ALL, except a little on NS. And now I am at four or five votes in like a page? Come on. Why do you think that is?

Well...first off, your clamoring was, literally, just that. You never actually tried to engage anyone or convince anyone, you were just going with repitition and trying to act like that was a case.
Despite this, your "little bit of traction on NS" remained the LARGEST WAGON IN THE GAME AT THAT POINT.
At that point, with only me even commenting about you - you decided to vote yourself.

The reason your wagon got so big so quickly is a mix of people being lazy right now and you AtEing like a boss - and people love to vote AtE.
Also, this shockingly huge wagon on you...it's not much bigger than that super difficult one "you" got on NS.
So...I dunno, what does that mean?

This game is mountainous. It is always better to lynch than to no lynch. If you have some magical case against someone, go ahead and present it. Otherwise, take the small step off your soapbox and stop complaining about how useless everyone else is when you are doing squat to actually scumhunt, which is apparently important to you.

I'm actually doing quite a bit to scumhunt. Heck, if what you're doing qualifies, then I am doing that *and* also actually discussing stuff with people, meaning if I am not doing much, you are somehow doing less.
So, whether my soapbox is large or small, it must still exist.

Regardless of the basic core strategy that "a lynch is better than a no lynch" you are, nonetheless, advocating a vote on a person you (theoretically) know to be confirmed town.
Hint - that is never a good play...except maybe in some weird multiball setups or in Reverse Mafia, or unless you are scum. Is this one of those situations? If so, I retract any claims I have about the lack of quality of your current play.

[Thor665]

I keep telling you guys this slots opportunistic scum I feel like I'm dealing with a bunch scrubs.

Yes, though I submit your definition of opportunistic doesn't jive with mine.
For instance, the wagon on Aegor? I created it - that's not opportunism.
You can probably suggest I'm scum trying to push for a mislynch, but at least accuse me of things I am actually doing and would actually do as scum.

[Thor665]

The repetition was not ill-founded. I believe in policy lynches. I also believe that they should occur as early in the game as possible. They are even better in this game because there is no chance of lynching PRs but some chance of lynching scum.

Yes, I agree your case was shallow and based on repetition and policy as opposed to scumhunting. Heck, i thought I already made clear that this was the basis of my case on you.

You are straight-up lying. Other players had been commenting on me for pages, and out of the SEVENTEEN PLAYERS alive, I was in the top three for almost everyone who responded to my query.

If you don't think I started the wagon on you I'd be fascinated to hear who you think did.

Compare the speeds.

The wagon on you built faster than the one on NS. It also built faster than the one that never happened on InHim. It also was harder to start than the one on Zekrom.
What information should I now glean from this info?
Does this mean you *and* NS are town since you were so easy to start wagons on compared to InHim, and that InHim is scum?
Or does it mean something else?

You "hate" me but have no case on me. And the deadline is three days away. No one legitimately scumhunting would risk waiting until after that to present a case against a player they really want lynched.

I'd presented my case on you days ago.
It got traction when you AtEed.

It is not necessarily bad play.

This from "policy lynch lurkers"?

I find it unlikely that your tunneling on me will ever end, so I may as well free you up to look at other suspects or get lynched yourself. But you are crazy if you think it is good for me as town to be fighting tooth and nail for my continued survival in a mountainous game until lylo.

I always think it is a good policy, as town, to fight your lynch.
When I am town I have never had it in my wincon to mislynch town nor to hand scum easy mislynches.
Maybe I play badly, but that's how I read the role PMs.

[Thor665]

Policy lynches are not scummy.

Like all scumtells, that's a matter of opinion.

You said that you were the only one talking about me. Now you are saying that you started the wagon. Stop moving the goalposts.

I was the only one talking about you, and I was the one who started the wagon on you because of that fact.

The wagon on you built faster than the one on NS. It also built faster than the one that never happened on InHim. It also was harder to start than the one on Zekrom.
What information should I now glean from this info?

You keep saying that you have been scumhunting and I have not been. Surely you know better than to ask me.

I thought you had some ideas about this info. Was I wrong?

This from "policy lynch lurkers"?

The two positions are not incompatible.

Perhaps not, but I do submit there is some easy to spot intrinsic hypocrisy in believing both at the same time.

I happen to think otherwise.

I pray that you are always town when I am scum, and never town when I am town then.

We read role PMs differently. My role PM says that I win when all maf are lynched. Yours must be more detailed. I guess that proves I am scum.

Probably so.

[Thor665]

Let's see, my current people to want to bounce stuff off;

@Sotty7
@Fonz
@Zdenek

Well, for starters, I think Fonz still owes me some feedback on InHim (and, really, where were you on that one, Zdenek?) also, Sotty needs to stop being a lurk sack.
Now, I'm about to become presence non exitant in this thread till...well, deadline. Possibly a bit beyond. So what I'd love to have you guys chat about is ol' Aegor here. I'm conflicted on him and NS but I'm just not going to be around to press on either of them.

With Aegor, his defense looks *immensely* bad to me, he's throwing up AtE while *also* claiming he's willing to die for the town (which begs the question of why he's defending...?) and then, as a third, is not actually willing to discuss the reads and thoughts he is asking others to consider.
Now, that reads pretty bad to me.
The possible counterpoint to it (and th eonly one I see) is he's just gut a burr up his backside as involves Thor (shocking, i know, but it is a thing ) so the question to debate is - are the above listed actions because he's scum, or because he's a weak player who has become offended at me on a personal level and stopped playing the game?

The other consideration is NS. Now, I'll admit, I'd feel better about this if we had gotten a wagon worth "anything at all" on him first. But, he was still the biggest wagon, and as soon as a counter wagon starts up his immediate reaction is to light defend Aegor. Now, I'm faaar too lazy right now to check, but could someone go back into his ISO and see if he had already expressed pro-town thoughts about Aegor? If the answer is "no" then I would very much like to turn the Aegor wagon around and just speed lynch NS for lulz. If the answer is "yes" ...eh...at that point it becomes muddier for me, and I probably advocate lynching Aegor because then NS' reaction looks a bit more townish.

Also, quite frankly, if you guys spin it around on InHim I'd be there in preference to either of the above.
I'd probably accept Al as a 4th option, but only out of personal distaste for his town game, which is a terrible reason to lynch someone but...hey, someone has to be my fourth option.
I'll promise to log on at least once prior to deadline to try to connect on all of this again.
Please don't half-arse replies.

[Thor665]

I think NS is a good lynch, but I don't really follow why NS defending Aegor makes NS scummier? Are you implying NS and Aegor are scum buddies?

The logic I was suggesting in that discussion was NS = scum Aegor = town, and that NS was going for the town points of defending an imminent wagon on town in a weak manner but wanted to get his comment in and on the record.

Would like to say why didn't anyone bite when I voted bulb out the blue?

Your push was too weak and ineffectual to count that as part of a case.

So, Aegor is still probably town.

Your openening comment here is phrased far stronger than any of the evidence you provide afterwards - indeed, without this line, my read of your post would be 'null to nullish town' and yet your conclusion is 'town'. Whassup?

Also- Thor, you didn't "start" the Aegor wagon. You voted him and so did Bulba, then poof, no votes on Aegor. Then, once the Aegor wagon seems like it could actually have potential- "HEY GUYZ REMEMBER I STARTED THIS!!! YEAH!! MAKE SURE YOU REMEMBER THIS WAS BECAUSE OF ME!!!"

Okay, well, first off - if I didn't start it, who did?
Second off - the only way that play makes sense if you're right is if Aegor is scum, would you like to vote Aegor?

Thor thinks I 'owe' him something on InHim. Since I don't have a ton of time for this post and he's V/LA, I'll go into it tomorrow.

You do.

I'm glad other people are noticing that Zdenek is town.
Emeralddaemon is also town.
I have Nero as town, partly for prior slot holders and his own play is fine in my opinion.

Vote: Albert B. Rampage

[Thor665]

How many people have declared 'bad player' by self voting now?
I've lost count.

[Thor665]

Vote: Albert B. Rampage

[Thor665]

I feel people aren't talking with each other, they're talking at each other.

ABR is playing akin to his soft and namby scum game as opposed to his vitriolically anti-town town game.

@Zdenek
@Matias
@Nero
@Emeralddaemon

Please discuss my above bolded comment with me.

[Thor665]

@Nero
@Zdenek

I just had a pair of games back to back with ABR where I was scum and he was town both times.
He is not AtEing, he is not pulling shoddy gambits, and he is not yelling at anyone about how bad they play.
Let's vote him now.

You're also allowed to do your own research to see if you think my case holds merit.

[Thor665]

I haven't read this game. I won't. There's too many players and too many pages.

Yeah, I felt the same way.
So, y'know, I just read the page I was on and played from there.
Of course I'm town, so...

[Thor665]

Im through the first day but this is just such a painful game. Probably will finish it up tomorrow.

When you get here, comment on ABR.

[Thor665]

He kinda did this with Slandaar, unless you mean to imply he'd just keep on keeping on.

If he "kinda" did it Day 1 and failed to do anything Day 2-3 I'm not sure what you think I'm missing.

[Thor665]

I'm still okay with an Al or InHim lynch at this stage.

More people should sack up and vote regardless.

[Thor665]

How caught up are you?

[Thor665]

I also have to admit I feel like the pony is misrepresenting their read since they're acting like Albert is still in the game.

[Thor665]

I also have to admit I feel like the pony is misrepresenting their read since they're acting like Albert is still in the game.

If he is a good information lynch it doesn't matter if he has been replaced or not, the slot is still a good information lynch.

Any slot is good info lynch.
Doesn't make it a scum slot.

[Thor665]

vote: Albert B Rampage

I also have to admit I feel like the pony is misrepresenting their read since they're acting like Albert is still in the game.

This referencing the "culling the useless/lurker pool" bit?

This referencing how they're acting like Albert is still in the game. Like I literally said, and they responded to and acted like I wasn't crazy. Just go read all of their posts whenever they reference Albert and ask yourself if it sounds like they read his replace out request post. I don't think it sounds that way.

[Thor665]

Oh, I forgot to mention it before. Shroomish towntold big in that post. Scum will have to NK him.

I didn't see a towntell. I saw a contradictory stance and opportunistic behavior.

Getting the number of scum oh so very wrong.

I actually agree with this.

More neutral on Zed's vote though. I wanted InHim yesterday, and he's bad, yes, but I don't think he's a good option today.
Kaboom vote move is interesting.
Would still like ABR lynched first though.

[Thor665]

HighShroomish (1) - Bulbazak
Aegor (1) - emeraldemon
inHimshallibe (1) - Zdenek
Bulbazak (1) - Nero Cain

Not voting (3) - kabooooom, Garmr, Matias

A listing of people whose votes are currently doing jack and spit.
It's a depressingly large list of people.
Let's work on this and make it a less shameful list.

@Bulb - your vote is super weak because there is literally no support there. Just move, move now.
@Emeralddemon - meh, Sotty is at work on you, carry on with that as you will.
@Zdenek - I actually agree with that read and like the vote, heck if you can get one other vote there I promise to move to support i - but you should get noisy sooner rather than later.
@Nero - replace out you useless sack.
@Kabooom - replace out you useless sack. Or , in your case, self vote.
@Whoever just replaced Garmr, I forget already - get reads and vote in play pl0x.
@Matias - are you even still in this game?

[Thor665]

@Thor: anything I can do to alleviate suspicion, or are you going to keep calling my name without voting me.

Did you pay attention to the first...y'know, half of the game I was in?
Silly stuff like this is not likely to change my read, because it looks like you aren't paying attention to anything and have no past memory of actions, which is a mindset that's workable for scum but not for town who wants to be "any help at all".
Hope that helps.

[Thor665]

We have six days left. It isn't necessary for everyone to be on the biggest two wagons. But more importantly, you should sheep me and vote Aegor.

Six days is hardly as long a stretch of time as you would have me believe, especially with hammer intents, claims, and further discussion and possible alternate wagon.

I like your Aegor case, you do remind me how terrible he has been. If you get some other sheep/promises there I'll move to join as well.
What's your ABR read?

[Thor665]

Does him replacing out tell anything to you either way? Do you think he'd be more likely to replace out as scum (or town)?

I personally wouldn't expect ABR to tuck and run as either alignment. I think it was an honest replace out because he recognized he was hurting his team - but that can easily go either way.

I find the meta difference to be the issue with the slot.

Unvote: ABR
Vote: Aegor

Meh, townish wagon is townish. Baaaa.

[Thor665]

It's a bad case, it doesn't feel slimy to me particularly.

[Thor665]

I mean, a lot of the tells are bad, but a lot are unique and his own thing. I'd tend to expect scum to have ridden on my coattails more since I'd already done a case. The mentality feels okay to me to be a town one. I'm not town reading him for the case, but it's not a clear scum case in my opinion.

[Thor665]

ABR people: Please switch to kab, or explain why ABR is especially scummy.

I presented a meta case on ABR.

The case on Kaboom is "he's useless"

Either show me that he's not useless as town, or vote ABR.

Whassup?

[Thor665]

So...do you think ABR is not useless or something? Why vote Kaboom over him? You functionally got off the bigger wagon to support the smaller one.

Also, why did you ask for cases if the immediate reaction intended was :shrug: ?

[Thor665]

Meh.

[Thor665]

So...vote the bigger wagon then?

[Thor665]

If it were going to lead to a lynch, it would have.

Okay, well here's a hint, our goal is to pick on the useless lurksacks who aren't voting *either* wagon. They're actually the ones clogging the day.

The amount of general acceptance of

ABR

wagon but the inability to get more than four votes on him coupled with him still doing absolutely nothing and now making a not so subtle brush off of "not posting since D1 isn't scummy" makes him the lynch.

He is easily above average scum shot and he is a great utility lynch.

Fixed that for you.
Goose gander, really. I agree with you, but I don't see how it shows Kaboom more than ABR.
Clarify?

[Thor665]

and which fact am i trying to ignore with my recent posts?

Well, let's look at your recent posts...

This one is defense of yourself.
Before that was a defense of yourself and mild poke on Aegor about the countdown (a town tell on Aegor from my perspective, frankly) Also a promise to read and post...that was posted over 24 hours ago...hows that read going?
Before that was defense of yourself
Before that was agreeing you were a good policy lynch.
Before that was a self vote.
Before that was a prod dodge.
Before that was a v/la announcement
Before that was a promise of reading...that was posted over four weeks ago...hows that read going?
Before that was a prod dodge.
Before that was a prod dodge
Before that was complaining about ending the day prior to getting info from people (not that you're doing anything with said info)
Before that was asking for an L-1 wagon to halt.
Before that you voted EmoGirl with no case presented.
Before that was asking for abbreviation definitions.
Before that the game hadn't started.


So...by my count you've told us about how you're reading, and that you're reading, and that you shouldn't be lynched but are a good policy lynch and you'll self vote yourself. Also, i guess you found Emo scummy for something.

So...how about talking about "any reads on anyone at all?"
That would be pretty shocking and unusual for you.

[Thor665]

I guess I could also ask Rainbow what info she expects to get from that flip outside of wagon info.
Good info flip? Looks like 'normal' info flip to me, unless we're going with a theory that a lot of people have weighed in on him.

Though, whatever, his flippancy bugs me - get one more vote on him and I'll move.

[Thor665]

@Bulba - I would agree with him. Logic is involved, but so are a lot of other things.
Wanna move to a Kaboom wagon? I don't dislike the Aegor wagon, but I don't think it's happening today.

[Thor665]

though I obviously don't agree with your ABR vote.

Are you voting Kaboom?

If not - why not?

[Thor665]

Oh go fake your AtE elsewhere.

[Thor665]

Same questions to you.

I'm trying to hold out to be the Mjolnir because I've only ever hammered about...like five times in my career outside of lylo. Also, I know I'll be present for a quick hammer intent and reaction after claim unlike if one of the lurksacks ends up being the needed final vote.

Lynch kab today. Lynch ABR tomorrow. Everyone wins. Why is this so effing difficult to do? Clearly there is support enough for both lynches so can we please just do it already?

I thought you were like me and were pretty happy with either of them getting lynched just to end the day. Why are you negotiating on order? I know I don't give a durn and would happily go one way or the other.

[Thor665]

Also, if Aegor now moves to ABR I'll offer hammer intent...and, without a replacement, I think I'll just lulz hammer it.
So win-win, really. He gets his lynch and I'll be the one pulling the trigger on a slot that can't claim.

[Thor665]

STOP!










Mjolinir time.

Vote: ABR

[Thor665]

@Mod

@Bulba - can you walk me through your Emogirl thoughts? As far as that slot's relation to ABR goes...I pretty strongly read town right now, so I'm curious what you see that I'm missing.
Also, if INHim's appeal to me (which was pretty blatant) makes you uncomfortable, I'd love to also hear why Emo is scummier than him.

[Thor665]

I did? I don't even remember discussing the issue with you. Your non-presence is one of my issues with your slot.

[Thor665]

Lynch pool today: Bulb, Rainbow, Emerald. Fine with inHim as well.

Emerald is pretty obv. town. How do you see it otherwise?

In other news, I'll also toss High Shroomish into the town pool.

[Thor665]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: RainbowDash

Also kab should die if he is still useless by the end of this game day.

This is a better vote than your last one.
So I take it you agree with me that he's pretty obv. town and that's why you unvoted?


@Sotty - I'm with you there. My other one is Aegor, though, not Bulba. What are your thoughts about that?

@Kaboom - I lean town. Gut read reasoning. What's your take on her?

[Thor665]

seems pretty town to me.

...so why did you ask me my read on her? I didn't discuss her, I had expressed nothing much about her in a negative way, and you also don't have a negative view...so why ask? Were you expecting a hidden scumread there or something?

Basically I could be convinced when it comes to Aegor now. His pressure on me to unvote ABR yesterday when he was the leading wagon was all out of whack. I have a much higher scum read on bulb mostly because of his push on the emo slot, I pretty much hate it. There is also some gut thrown in there RE: my bulb read.

Also, pay attention to, at a point when ABR was the bigger wagon and Kaboom was coming up, Aegor did that odd move to Kaboom all while constantly re-stating that he was good with either wagon, but only really selling the Kaboom one. Feels like a bus he got spooked on. I'll admit I say this without really paying attention to ho whe got on the wagon (and I probably should look at that) but his actions there do read as nervy buddy to me rather than frustrated town looking for any lynch at all.

Can you give me the quick bullet points for the Bulba wagon? I get the feel a lot of it is centered in the earlier game days that I didn't read.
I don't feel I have a good grasp of it.

[Thor665]

The suggestion that I was hoping to avoid it is absurd. That requires one to assume that I would directly contradict my stated intention of lynching whichever was not lynched yesterday today. Such a contradiction would be obvious and extremely suspicious, and rightly so.

Um...how does that remotely show anything.

State intent to lynch either.
Actively work on building the one that isn't your buddy.
If buddy goes through vote him at 11th hour.
Claim town points due to, y'know, helping lynch scum.

That seems like scum 101 to me. How do you figure it's so outlandish and/or not what you did?

[Thor665]

Lynch was still stupid even if it was lucky enough to be right. Nothing has changed. Also would lynch Thor. I don't think both are scum but I cant see both being town.

Clarify your case on me please, because though I am often full of myself I'm pretty sure I look obv. town right now, so I'm OMGUSing all over you for this.

Especially what with the "stupid" lynch that had a pretty darn decent meta case attached to it.

@Emo - I'd like to hear the Chevre case in a sexy short version. Just peg me with 1-3 sentences that nail it. I don't feel like I understand your issue.

@Bulba - Can you explain to me why you think ABR's push on Tony(/Nero/Emo) was a bus? Because I don't really follow that logic either. His push there and the Nero/ABR interactions as well don't really look buddy/buddy to me.

I still think either an Aegor or Rainbow lynch is the smart money for the day.

Vote: Aegor

He'll squirm easier.

[Thor665]

Chevre and ABR interaction. Chevre bends logic to support ABR. Proof of this when he asked Zekrom to replace out when ABR v. NS was being played out, yet when ABR v kab was playing out, scum read out of thin air.

I don't think I have a good frame of reference for this. I'm guessing this is a bit of a hypocrisy tell. Can you clarify it any? Why was him asking Zekrom to replace out suspect?

Says yessiree dying incriminates ABR so much that he uses this as a reason for why ABR was not to be lynched. Not many people even mentioned yessiree's case for ABR. The case was ABR's push for emogirl. Chevre says this case holds so much validity that ABR is town and should not be lynched. Makes no reference to this while voting emogirl.

Well...I think the last sentence is mostly null. If he was fake setting up cases when scum in the first part, there's no particular scum benefit to forget to mention them again - which means scum or town he clearly just forgot about it. I don't think town is less likely to forget things.

Do you think scum would kill someone who suspected their scumbuddy and then open up a conversation about how it cleared them? I have to admit that strikes me as really unusual scum play. I would expect them to kill the town and then just stay quiet about the issue. Did he start the conversation, or did someone else? If he started it - I'd like to call him town.

Cherry picking quotes to build a case for emogirl and coasting with these points occasionally "compromising" with a lynch just to continue to coast defaulting to day 1 "emogirl" case.

Meh. I don't see you as blazingly so town that it's scummy to attack you, though I understand that mindset.
What's your take on Aegor and Rainbow?

ABR didn't really start doing anything in relation to Slandaar until Slandaar attacked BS (who was really scummy).

Oh yeah? Example please.

You didn't take much of a stance on the whole ABR/kab exchange from yesterday early on, then tried to get Bulb to vote kab (note him not taking that chance means Bulb is town), then when it was getting to a point where ABR was looking like the deadline lynch jumped on him.

Yeah...so...the start of the ABR wagon...no info from that, huh?

but it seemed like you were trying to figure out if you could actually save ABR, and eventually decided to bus when you figured that you could not.

Have you ever seen me do that after starting a bus on a scumbuddy at any point ever?
I'm just curious why you think I would.

and that BS was very scummy

How?

Again you are immediately trying to loop into making yourself look good with the ABR wagon too saying it was "good meta" when you ignored it again until late. If it was as good of meta as you are claiming, why didnt you vote him early instead of stalling, seeming to make passive pokes towards kab, and then caving about 24 hours to deadline? Most of your interactions with the wagons and comments about it today sound more like you knew he was scum but were not sure about how to play it.

Well...I would think it was fairly obvious that I didn't vote ABR right out of the gate because I was still getting a feel for the game and scumreading people. Once I got a scumread on him I voted it and presented the case pretty strongly and even discussed it with multiple people and even moved a fair shake of votes to ABR.

I will agree it didn't appear as though I 100% knew he was scum...that's because I'm town and I got to my conclusion via scumhunting.

Whether or not I had psychotic aggression in my push is immeterial to the value of my evidence. It was good evidence, it was one of the best made cases of the entire phase, and you're the one calling the case stupid. Whether or not I was 80% sold or 100% sold on my own case does not actually affect it to make it stupid. If that's what you're arguing then...wow. Just wow.

Is that what you're arguing here? That is was stupid because I had doubts and kept scumhunting other people even though I never stopped calling him scum?
Because if that's not what you're saying here...what are you saying here as far as the case not being good and, indeed, being stupid? Because that's a pretty bold statement.

[Thor665]

@Rainbow - also, glancing over my commentary about ABR, I just want to run over this thought to see if I understand you properly.

When I entered the game I "RVS" voted ABR.
A wagon appeared on him.
I unvoted and began actively defending him.
The wagon dissipated.
Later I make a meta case on ABR and vote him again.
I argue with people to get them to vote ABR.
The wagon stalls out and I move off it.
The wagon moves to L-2 and I promise hammer and encourage anyone to vote it.
I hammer the wagon.

And I do this because I am scum who was nervous about bussing ABR.


The sell.
I need more of it.

[Thor665]

@Bulba.

You're wasting a lot of ai debating Aegor.
You're voting Emogirl who, not only do I think she's town, but it's not like anyone else is backing you there.
Time to bus your scumbuddy, yeah? C'mon over and make it less of a soft bus pl0x.

[Thor665]

{Chevre, RBD, kab}, and {Bulb} as a compromise.

It is near day start.
You're voting your compromise.
Die scum die.

[Thor665]

I don't know Thor's meta, but that would be a really aggressive bus. At some point I need to spend time rechecking the ABR wagon(s) for clues.

Depending on who you ask I either bus really hard, or am desperate to defend scumbuddies, or (as in this game) I've been tagged as an aggressive busser who apparently decides partway through that I don't want to bus them.

I am on record as never lying about my meta, and personally think I'm a pretty aggressive busser.
That said, I'm also on record as wanting to shift that meta up, because I think the current site meta would actually reward a scumteam that refused to bus.
Nobody has been willing to take me up on it.
Yet.

[Thor665]

You on the other hand attempted this whole "lol who cares lynch me if that helps town" attitude, which is easy for scum Thor to completely wreck you causing the lolwagon and scum (Bulba/Chevre) to join in.

Did I call him out as scum for self voting? I don't remember doing that - I thought my case was about his activity on the ABR wagon.

Also, you say you don't find me too impressive. I've been in the game one day - I caught ABR scum. How much more impressive do I need to be to meet up with your play expectations for you? I'm actually serious about this one as a question - your standards seem unreasonably high paired with unclear as to what they even are.

I almost forgot:

VOTE: kabooooom

I'm happy voting for inHimshallibe as well, and would seriously ponder a RainbowDash vote. Other wagons will get consideration as the day goes on. I will not be a lone Cassandra, insisting I'm right with my single vote in the middle of nowhere near a deadline.

I don't really disagree with any of your scumspects (though I'm wavering on InHim I'll admit, his shift to Albert felt really organic.

That said, you're voting a counterwagon to scum yesterday.
You're voting..the counterwagon...to scum.
Talk to me Thesp, what's going on here?

[Thor665]

Weren't your reads for Bulbascum?

[Thor665]

You on the other hand attempted this whole "lol who cares lynch me if that helps town" attitude, which is easy for scum Thor to completely wreck you causing the lolwagon and scum (Bulba/Chevre) to join in.

Did I call him out as scum for self voting? I don't remember doing that - I thought my case was about his activity on the ABR wagon.

Also, you say you don't find me too impressive. I've been in the game one day - I caught ABR scum. How much more impressive do I need to be to meet up with your play expectations for you? I'm actually serious about this one as a question - your standards seem unreasonably high paired with unclear as to what they even are.

Someone is writing checks they won't even bother trying to cash.

Look, I think you're town, but the above post basically shows you're flailing around and making stuff up on the fly. I have to admit that does exceedingly little to make me wish to sheep you t this stage. Would you like to kindly sheep a strong townread of yours who you perceive as a good player? It will be more helpful in a number of ways at this point.

Yes, this sounds harsh.
But you literally made up a response from me that never happened.
That deserves harshness.

[Thor665]

That said, you're voting a counterwagon to scum yesterday.

I forgot about this. It's a excellent point and another reason why I'm not keen on voting for Kab.

When you say stuff like this it takes away my easy ability to auto-suspect Thesp because "town Thesp wouldn't play this terribly"

[Thor665]

Thor the only reason any town would ever vote Aegor is because of his attitude. No one even read your case. I also doubt anyone read Rainbow's case for you.

Some people read my case because I talked with them about it, and I read Rainbow's case on me (and then made fun of it) and none of this actually matters to anything about what we're currently discussing.

Yes you presented a case for Aegor. Yes he has been awfully flaily during the kabooooom v ABR wagon. What does that accomplish? Subtly shoving down our throats the fact that he doesn't care about either wagon. Even if he subtly shoved this down people's throat, they still sense it, because shoving down Smurf down people's throats is uncomfortable.

Well, first off, i don't think he was trying to be subtle, and if he was he doesn't understand what subtle means. He was extremely unsubtle, and went out of his way to try to point out that he didn't care.

That said, who voting his wagon do you find suspect. Because I actually agree that my case is pretty thin if anyone bothers to look at what Aegor has posted and said through the day, so at that point, do you think there is scum on him, and if so - whom?

Unvote: Aegor

Also for the people saying that town should play as if they have nothing to hide, we can take Aegor's play here as a counterexample. It is always important for town to stop for a moment and think about what they do.

Town should practice 'good play' but that is different from playing as if they have nothing to hide.
I often am aggressive and speak my mind quite bluntly and will choose to try gambits - that doesn't prevent me from doing all of that within a concept of 'playing any good at all'.
Hint: I don't think Aegor is playing that good, but he's probably playing townishly due to speaking his mind even amidst the horror that are his actions.

Finally, if anyone is voting ABR over kabooooom simply because it is lurker slot, note this: ABR has asked for replacement (though with the increasing length of the game replace-ins aren't occurring as frequently). Meanwhile, kabooooom has not despite strings of V/LA with no contribution and even acknowledging his own inability to keep up.

Here is Chevre asking us to wait for ABR's replacement before lynching him.

I understand that you may have true suspicion on ABR behind your vote, but if it's simply a vote to thin the lurker population in this game, there are better options than someone who is in the queue of replacement.

Here is Chevre admitting that there are people willing to lynch ABR for reasons irrelevant to what his replacement will say.

Both of these together with Chevre saying that Zekrom and kabooooom are playing the same lazy anti-town game, asking Zekrom to be replaced and saying that we should lynch kabooooom for no reason when ABR was in the process of being replaced makes Chevre scum.

I think you're rather twisting Chevre's words here to your own preconceived conclusions.
Whether or not Chevre thought there were people voting ABR for non-lurk reasons doesn't preclude him thinking that there were people voting him for lurk reasons.

I also still fail to understand the flow of that last sentence, which is one you've tossed out multiple times - so I know it's important to your case. It just doesn't seem to make sense to me. I'm going to walk you through what I'm thinking, see if you can help;

1. Chevre said that both Zekrom and Kaboom were anti town (you are presuming Chevere scum, Zekrom scum, and Kaboom town in this comment as far as I'm aware)
2. Chevre asked for Zekrom to be replaced and urged for a Kaboom lynch (logic being a scumbuddy protecting his mate and pushing on another guy who is town)
3. He does this while ABR is in the process of being replaced (this seems...like a totally random thought tossed up there that has no connection to thought #1, and not really to thought #2 either)

I mean, if the concept was - pushed for kaboom over ABR. Well, okay, that's a decent stand alone, and there are a number of people who did similar, and I agree they're worth looking at. But I'm not sure how that ties back to Zekrom. Functionally, if he discovered he was "wrong" about Zekrom, why wouldn't he then suspect Kabooom - a player he said was doing the same thing? That seems to make sense as a thought process.

Can you clarify this comment for me?

[Thor665]

OK, so what makes him town?

I would say go look at his commentary about both Kaboom and ABR in *more* than the microcosm I first presented. He had a long running issue with both, and the core point is that though he did hop off ABR to make kabooom a bigger wagon...he did the same thing earlier in the day except he hopped off kabooom to push ABR.

That seems a pretty decent argument for Aegor=teh townz to me.

[Thor665]

I'm kind of leaning Bulbazak and High Shroomish right now.

I refuse to believe I'm wrong about emeralddemon at this stage. I also think being the counter cuts kabooom from slack (even if he is playing super hard to help scum regardless of his role PM).

@Bulba - battle me with words, I want your thoughts on the gamestate.

Does anyone have thoughts on High Shroomish? I had him as a town lean earlier, I think I liked that town lean, is there a scum case on him from anyone?

[Thor665]

I could also crawl back to Rainbow. She's probably too canny to fall for the obv. wagon shenanigans I pulled, and her ABR interactions are fairly skeevy from yesterday too.
Plus OMGUS. (not from her, from me)

[Thor665]

Also his general anti-town attitude, he acts as if he can spout out anything without consequence. Too ballsy.

Please don't try to tell him that terrible play gets him town reads.
It doesn't.
It shouldn't.
And if he adopts that it hurts many towns in the future.

[Thor665]

I'm kind of leaning Bulbazak and High Shroomish right now.

I refuse to believe I'm wrong about emeralddemon at this stage. I also think being the counter cuts kabooom from slack (even if he is playing super hard to help scum regardless of his role PM).

@Bulba - battle me with words, I want your thoughts on the gamestate.

Does anyone have thoughts on High Shroomish? I had him as a town lean earlier, I think I liked that town lean, is there a scum case on him from anyone?

I take HS as town by way of validating Zdenek's read on his townslip.

Maybe. Though I've been scum who shot town who thought I or one of my partners was town to help "verify" them.

What was the townslip though? I forgot about that, and if it's good then I can just lob Shroom back into my town pile and lynch Bulba or Rainbow, which would be sexy.

[Thor665]

I also still fail to understand the flow of that last sentence, which is one you've tossed out multiple times - so I know it's important to your case. It just doesn't seem to make sense to me. I'm going to walk you through what I'm thinking, see if you can help;

Can you clarify this comment for me?

Read this.

Chevre says he is reluctant to vote Zekrom because she thinks this is just his playstyle. Chevre even mentions that kabooooom falls into this category. I did not presume Zekrom as scum or town anywhere in my case for Chevre.

Chevre says that Zekrom deserved a replacement when ABR was nowhere in danger of being lynched.

When ABR / kabooooom was being lynched, he "strongly suspected" kabooooom while completely ignoring what he had said previously for Zekrom while asking him to go get himself replaced.



@Aegor - what's your take on Rainbow?
Nothing has changed since then regarding kabooooom's play so he is not being consistent with his reads.

So, really, it's not about who he is asking to be replaced or not replaced, it's about whether or not he desired to lynch lurksacks.

I don't think you've shown his stance to be unusual on one as opposed to the other though.
Three lurksacks;

Zekrom (called him a top scumread, admitted trouble reading him due to playstyle, was happy to get him replaced)
ABR (seemed eager to get him replaced - we can presume not liking a lynch over being a lurksack I suppose)
Kabooom (called him scummy mostly for self vote, indicated the self vote pushed him into acceptable lynch territory - kabooom was never at risk for replacement)

Either I'm missing something still, or your case isn't really logically solid.

[Thor665]

My preview post addition got a little lost there, so;

@Aegor - what's your take on Rainbow?

[Thor665]

That's not the only thing. There is a reason why Chevre was placed at L-1 on Day 1 which was lost.

What was that reason, I haven't read Day 1.

[Thor665]

I haven't read Day 1.

You should.

I won't.

So tell me the case that I won't read otherwise.

[Thor665]

Heck, I'll accept a link too. I'm adaptable.

I may even be willing to do the legwork if you tell me which player made a good presentation of the case - though I may get snarky(er) over it.

[Thor665]

@Thesp - I see a great case there for how useless Kaboom is as a player.

He was still the counterwagon to scum though.

Vote: Rainbowdash

Want to sheep me here?

[Thor665]

It is now past the hour, meaning that somewhere the date has become tomorrow.
Sheep?

[Thor665]

I feel good about my vote.

[Thor665]

RBD's post makes very little sense - she's accusing me of bussing and then hard defending ABR all day 2, then bussing him for part of Day 3, then partway through the bus soft defending him. The obviously more logical interpretation is "Thor was scumhunting, and grew into a suspicion of ABR"

As far as Aegor goes, your case on me relies on Aegor being scum and you want to lynch him first. This case also makes very little sense and further ignores the evidence shown about how Aegor doesn't make sense with ABR scum (and, while we're at it, is another case of Thor random bussing and then random hard defending...which, doesn't even begin to make sense if I'm scum with either Aegor or ABR.



What about her and your case makes sense to you?
Please walk me through what I, as scum, was thinking in the things I did, and how I thought it would help me win?
If you answer is "dramatically distance from buddies and act super strange so you don't look scummy" I have a hint for you - that's called a town tell.

[Thor665]

You never mentioned a meta of ABR D2 except that it was hard to meta him. After a mislynch that seems to have had no real connection to ABR, you lay into him out of nowhere as him playing to his scum meta. Where did this change of pace come from, and why was it not mentioned before that point?

You are aware that my meta tell on him was based off the lack of him doing things. I'll go ahead and go out on a crazy limb that "in order to assess lack of things Thor needed to see enough play to realize things were lacking" as just a crazy off the top of my head wild and insane theory that explains every issue you just presented.

So, I bussed ABR when I showed up, decided to defend him for the rest of the day, then went into night and entered into the next day and was like, nah, that bussing thing was the way to go, i gotta stop defending him, so I started to bus him again, and then decided, hey, looks like people don't want my bus, I better dismantle it. I challenge you to ever find me, as scum, doing anything remotely of the sort, anywhere, ever. If you can I'll call you town and self vote. But you can't. because it's not how I play scum - therefore I'm obviously town right now.

Oh, and you noticed that Kaboom is more likely useless town than scum after being the counter wagon to ABR.
Good work.

[Thor665]

You never mentioned a meta of ABR D2 except that it was hard to meta him.

Also, i rather doubt I said this.
I am pretty sure I said a lot of the things people were calling scummy were things he did as town, but that doesn't mean his meta is hard - just that I thought people didn't know his meta. That's actually you showing me admitting an awareness and understanding of his meta.

Compare and contrast with me in any game with, say, DGB, where I openly claim that I have no idea how to read her and advocate lynching her whenever. If I think someone is impossible to read, then I usually just try to make them dead to spare me the headache.

[Thor665]

A bunch of reasons. I remember he made a bad vote on my wagon making me want to lynch either Chevre/ABR, he made a pretty bad push on Slandaar while pushing emeraldemon and then ended up going on another bad wagon. The right side of my face has swollen to the size of a golf ball and I have a hint if fever.

Post from dream land.

How many games have you ever played with ABR? I'm not sure 'illogical and bad play' is really a valid scumtell on him, and though I think this says something about his playstyle that he may wish to change I'm not sure it's a solid reason to lynch him barring something else.

Hey, look, this is totes Thor saying he doesn't understand ABR's meta!

...oh, no, wait, it's Thor claimign understanding of it.

[Thor665]

Oh cry me a river, Al, you practically try to hand scum a mislynch every time you're town and then whine that it is other town player's faults for lynching you ignoring that multiple town across multiple games find you scummy (hint: they're not *all* bad players )

Thor tells ABR his awarness of ABR's meta.

Sadly, it is well within ABR's meta to...well, flat out lie to make a case when he is town.

I will agree this means I always want a Vig in games with him in it, but it is an awkward 'scumtell' to apply to him because his town play is exactly that brutally anti-town.

Thor again describes awareness of ABR's meta.

I feel people aren't talking with each other, they're talking at each other.

ABR is playing akin to his soft and namby scum game as opposed to his vitriolically anti-town town game.

@Zdenek
@Matias
@Nero
@Emeralddaemon

Please discuss my above bolded comment with me.

Thor makes a meta case on ABR - it is super shocking since Thor doesn't claim to understand ABR's meta.

[Thor665]

Also, Thor was voting ABR at the end of Day 2, almost as though he was figuring out ABR was scum.
This is such a weird and obvious buss/distance action from Thor. It's textbook really, and he had to lie about meta to make his case too.

[Thor665]

Oooh, and Thor's meta case is *backwards relevant* with all his claims about ABR's scum and town meta.
Also, at the point Thor replaced in and defended ABR people were TRYING TO TELL THOR HOW ANTI-TOWN ABR WAS and during that period Thor had a stron ABR town defense...then, as Thor experience ABR himself he realized people were dumb and ABR wasn't being anti-town at all, and then Thor started to call him scum.

It's such a non-logical and scummy setup with no seeming sense to it at all, it must be a lulz bus!

[Thor665]

You were voting Aegor at the end of D2. The day you jokey voted ABR to start then soft defended him the rest of the day. Not the day you called him scum for meta, when the wagon stalled went elsewhere and avoided rebooting the wagon until the last moment.

Only according to the Mod's incorrect vote count.
Here's my actual last post of that Day;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p5701664
The very next page has a vote count reflecting me as voting Aegor, I will agree - but if you want to actually read what I'm saying and doing you should iso me, not the Mod.

Again. How come at the start of D3 you call him scum on meta but were not at the end of D2.

Because you're isoing the Mod and not me.

What changed there? You keep saying what the meta was but you continue to dodge the question of why you didn't attack him for it until after the D2 lynch. You are avoiding answering something really important. Or you are claiming you just made up the meta attack? I cant really follow all of your post. It seems like a scattershot of borderline claiming trust tells, self meta and frustration with ABR.

Y'know, this is funny, because even if you think my attitude suddenly shifted on a player between end of Day 2 and start of Day 3 - it's shockingly anti-town what you're doing and there are shockingly more obvious answers to your question than "Thor is derp scum with derp bus"
And I think you know this.
And that's why you're scum.



@Bulba - talk me through these waves of scum whom you must lynch. Just names with maybe a one liner for why they're scum would be a great starting point for me.

Also, though this toes the line of ongoing, it's not like I'm trying to lynch you everywhere. I've done anything but. I actually just got a nice chance to read you across multiple games, which I think helps my ability to read people (is it helping you with me? I always hope someone will someday prove capable of doing so because I'd just love to have the conversation - but I apparently remain pretty opaque for the most part...albeit, I'll admit I strive quite diligently to be so, but that's really a lot of the fun for the game when scum...the only fun, really.)

[Thor665]

And, actually, I suppose the vote count is correct, but only because InHim was the actual hammer.

[Thor665]

Ha! Thinking about it, I'm less interested at the moment. I would consider it if the wagon were bigger, but I have no interest in further splitting wagons when the kabooooom wagon is tied for the largest (albeit at 3), and you're the only one on RainbowDash right now.

Besides maybe Chevre, no one who is not voting Aegor has expressed particular desire to lynch Aegor. Many of them have expressed town reads on Aegor. That wagon is dead and is too silly to notice it yet.

The Kabooom wagon currently has at least one person on it (Rainbow the scum) who is calling Kabooom possible town, and is toying around with voting me because I'm spotting how scummy she is.

Highshroomish is probably town so when he actually tries to explain the case he's agreeing with and realizes how it doesn't make sense I think his vote will be back in play, and probably even back in play and available for Rainbow.

A two vote wagon at this stage is pretty potent.
You have indicated possible belief in Kabooom town.
You are still voting a counterwagon to scum.
It is still near the start of the phase.

What the hell are you doing and thinking right now?

[Thor665]

That is to say, for it actually to be a

counterwagon

rather than the town running up two scum players, I'd have to have some realistic belief that scum are concertedly pushing kabooooom in place of ABR. The strongest possibility does indeed come in the form of RainbowDash, yet quixotically I think the robust strength which RainbowDash pushed makes it less likely it's scum-motivated.

Yes, I think both kabooooom and RainbowDash are decent possibilities for scum, and simultaneously I doubt they are scum together. I don't know what else I can say about that.

Code: Select all

[b]Unvote: Kabooom
Vote: Rainbowdash

?

(As an aside, what do you mean "It is still near the start of the phase"?)

We have like seven days - give me a couple of them if you "need the wagon to be bigger"
Hint: your vote move will help make it bigger in more ways than one.

Someone remind me why emerald is town. Or was it emogirl that everyone thought was town, in which case carry on.

I think they're both town.

My case on Emerald is one of those vague "look at his iso" type deals. I would state that he is clearly scumhunting, seems to ask pointed and reasonable questions, and draws conclusions that make logical sense off the answers he gets. He has expressed pro-town consideration, issued pro-town warnings, and encouraged pro-town activities.

Can you remind me why he's not town?
Because I am not only missing it, I've been missing it for multiple phases.
I don't see any case there at all.

[Thor665]

I haven't read Day 1.

You should.

I won't.

So tell me the case that I won't read otherwise.

Heck, I'll accept a link too. I'm adaptable.

I may even be willing to do the legwork if you tell me which player made a good presentation of the case - though I may get snarky(er) over it.

Rectify this you talker in non-sequiturs you.

[Thor665]

Thor, I don't like it when players undermine my reads. Especially when they are aware that my reads are correct. Rectify this please.

Emogirl, I don't like it when players don't pay attention to the flow of a conversation. Especially when they should be aware that, in th econversation, I'm ruddy attempting to work with them. Rectify this please.

[Thor665]

Here is my interpretation of what happened: I call you scum because you lead the most anti-town wagon of the day, you say that I'm flailing about and you don't wish to sheep me because of it, then you admit that you lead the most anti-town wagon of the day and state that there are scum voting for Aegor.

Am I missing anything?

Well...yes. Or, rather maybe to be more explicit, you're adding a lot of things that have no justification to be added. Allow me to offer my tale of the tape;

Emo calls me scum because she doesn't like the Aegor wagon.
She then says that part of the reason it is bad is because I'm calling him scummy for self voting.
I never said that.
I call *that* flailing, because making up stuff is derpy and bad.
I note that people who make up things for their cases are not people I like to sheep.
I never denied leading a wagon on Aegor, I also disagree it was anti-town to do so.
Emo proves she doesn't understand what baiting is.
Emo continues to avoid discussing much, and also doesn't bother taking accountability onto herself for making up things I said, and actually indicates it's *my problem* for suggesting she is not the best case maker because of this.



So...yeah.

Would you kindly vote Rainbow now?

emogirl never answered this, but I will because Chevre is still on my scum list and I'm curious what people think.

Chevre's Day 1 vote on emogirl 311 made some people uncofortable. When Chevre started getting pressure he unvoted 387 in a way that made even more people (myself included) think scum. The biggest pusher on that wagon was probably Fonz[=Tebow], see 334 and 491.

The unvote was awkwardly justified and went nowhere. That's not a bad root for a case.
I had no issue with his initial vote, but that's basically meaningless to this point.

TOWN
Thor655
Sotty7
HighShroomish
Discode
inHimshallibe
emogirl
Bulbazak
Rainbowdash
kabooom
Chevre
Aegor
SCUM

Your Aegor read is probably bad, and certainly unwise for today.
The Emo read is okay as long as she is in a 'town' section of the list. I don't see justification for having her and Rainbow too close together though.

Why do you suspect both Kaboom (the counter) and Aegor (the flail beast) over Rainbow?
Can you talk me through the Aegor suspicion, specifically? I can sorta grok a Kaboom case at this juncture, I disagree with it, but I can grok it. But to be tearing after Aegor? What's the case? I don't recall anyone making one except for me, and I openly admitted mine was done with a limited perception to it, and wasn't good. So...where's the fire with him?

Also, could you look at what Rainbow did yesterday. I don't think that reads very clean considering what we know about ABR's alignment now.

[Thor665]

I said people are voting for Aegor because of his attitude, and I am saying that you are scum because you are taking advantage of his attitude by throwing a case for him when I assumed you are better than that.

What aspect of his attitude did I take advantage of in my case, since his self vote came after my vote, and I never commented on it, and that's what you cited as me using against him - so clearly you just mistyped what you meant.

Wait you are claiming my play as scum is to defend a slot that is doomed to at very late a midgame lynch in a manner that actually isn't calling them town? Really?

There isn't much of a point in defending a partner if they don't have a chance of living long enough for it to be helpful.

Oh...is taht crazy talk? I thought that was the basis of your case on me...is it not? Wasn't I scum defending my buddy?
I've got you, don't I?

Thor is being really dodgy over his reasoning to vote ABR. Still. He wont explain how the meta seemed to magically click during N2 (or I guess immediately after the D2 lynch)

I thought I've been very clear on this. What part is still confusing you? I described why it took me time, and I even showed in quotes why the delay happened.

So your instinct is to call the first person opposing and preventing your bait flailing and unworthy of sheeping? Someone is being very dishonest here.

No. My first instinct was to call you town - which I did.
My second instinct was to point out how your case lacked logic, and that made me question your other case because I feared equal lack of logic there.

Why am I not being rewarded for being the person who stopped your bait wagon to go through and immediately calling the person who started the wagon scum? Why am I unworthy of sheeping when you knew Aegor was a bait and I was the only one who strongly opposed it?

You have a town read from me - what other reward do you expect? Whether or not I think you're town is a far cry different from me wanting to sheep you.
If I got cop confirmed results on Aegor and Kaboom I'm not going to vote the way they suggest either, because I think I'm a better player than either of them.
I don't think this is remotely an unusual stance on my part - I actually think you're just annoyed that I suggested you weren't a good enough player to sheep. I'm sorry that bugs you, but when i feel people aren't playing with logic that I like - I'm not going to hand them a sheep.

Emo is scum for reasons I've repeatedly mentioned. I'm thinking you're beginning to see it too, but you keep disregarding your instincts and keep calling her town for some reason.

Hah, talk to her about what my read is!

Thesp (aka the Garmr-slot) has a residual scumread from his predecessor. I have not been too impressed by his posts so far. I want to give him time, though. I'd rather not lynch him today.
Aegor I don't know anymore. Part of me wants to say town due to his association with the ABR wagon, but nothing he's done today makes sense from a town perspective, and now I just want him dead so that he'll stop clogging up the thread.
Kabooom is a policy lynch, plain and simple. He's not contributing, and I'd rather he not make it to endgame.
Inhimishallbe I keep flipflopping on. He's not as strong of a read as Emo/Thesp, but everything he posts just feels so slimy, and nothing he says seems to make sense. Null/scum instead of full on scum.

InHim is a pretty solid town read for me now - go look at how he reacted to my case on ABR. He questions it, responds to it, and moves his vote. It seems a very town progression.

I'm bugged that a number of your reads appear policy minded over scum-motive minded.
Could you re-read Rainbowdash and me? I really think she comes across as scum in those interactions, I'd like your thoughts on it whether you agree or disagree (especially since you apparently town vibe both of us.

In exchange I'll look at Thesp again - I'll admit to not a strong read on the slot in any direction.
Deal?

[Thor665]

Why didn't you call it meta D2 then? If it was meta it seems like when you vote on it then it would be brought up, especially if you really thought the day was not over and you could move the wagon.

So...what do you think the case is here, then? That I needed the night phase to come up with a fake justification to bus my buddy?

Its called parody/mocking of your insistence that you are not scum because of the exact same reason. You are saying you would not have acted like that as scum, which I said is not a real defense, and then showed that by the same logic I cant be scum if you are going to say that your own interactions clear you.

My defense of myself is based around the buss, defense, buss story that you're having to sell.
You story doesn't have that - it's just a mild push, then deflection defense for the remainder.

Cant have it both ways. Either your case on me needs to actually be explained or your defense of yourself doesn't exist.

I have explained my case on you.

[Thor665]

Heck, you were just mocking my case on you.
If it wasn't explained you'd have nothing to mock. It would just be a vote.

[Thor665]

Okay, so I'm thinking Aegor is scum with either Thor or emo. RBD, Bulba, what do you guys think?

Well, at least one of you or Emo is totally narf then, since she's convinced I was trying to mislynch him, and now you're going with that I was trying to buss him.

Can you explain to me, in as much detail as you can muster, why you like Rainbow's case on me?

I am on record as stating that her case literally makes no sense t all, and have said why. So I'm curious why you like it and would like th echance to point out to you how daffy it is.

[Thor665]

Because it is the case that I'm to lazy to make. That should be clear enough for you.

So you agree with her that it's scummy how my read on Albert shifted from defense of him to voting him, and that I didn't mention meta the first time I voted him after deciding it was for meta reasons?

If you think her case is something other than that, let me know what I'm missing - and if you agree with it, let me know that.

[Thor665]

Watch my push on ABR for my obvious bussing.
Also, I'd like your take on Rainbow.

[Thor665]

For the record, I disagree with scumreading Emo. I don't really buy into her Chevre case, but I think her interactions with ABR don't look scum/scum, and some of her other interactions look wonky, but it's more playstyle than scum in my opinion.

[Thor665]

I'm not really sure why you are focusing so much on your town read of emo instead of your scum reads. You should probably change that.

It's a scumread of Emo.
Other than that, I agree with this point.

@Sotty - here's my dismissal of Rainbow for you. Notice that you quote her complaining that my meta shift happened oveernight (as insane as that is already to call a scumtell, at least it's a stance) I have since shown her that the suspicion started at the end of the previous Day phase, and not overnight.

Her reaction?

To complain that I didn't mention meta at that point (even though I did instantly on Day Start) and to, otherwise, have her case totally unaffected.

You think this is a good case still because...somehow my Aegor interactions look weird to you? I'd love to hear your thoughts.
And get your sheep.

[Thor665]

It is? We're talking about PJ here right?

I currently have a Townread on emogirl123, but one thing is actively confusing me:

Point.
Okay, it's even a sillier side conversation than I thought.

Right now I'm getting some town flickers just because whenever she posts she sounds so genuine with it even if I think it is crazy. I'm wondering if scum would make it a one v one against you considering how many people are town reading you.

I'm pretty sure I went after her first. Let's see...

No, looks like you're right, she called Thor/Kab and voted Kab at the start of day, and it's the first real push there.
She didn't move off Kab though till after I made more of a noise about it and scumread her.
Eh...I dunno, for me it's the case, I just don't think a town Rainbow would push this sort of case on me,a nd I do think a scumRainbow would be willing to toss me into a scumspect pool regardless of the amount of support that was there, and functionally I was the one who pushed the scumread into 1 v 1 territory.
Any thoughts on that?

Also, is emo right about your Aegor vote being a bait vote true or is this fulling things up to make you look worse? I got a little lost in your back and forth, I'm not afraid to admit that.

She calls it baiting, I would call it 'parking my vote and seeing what happens there because I'm going to take some time to get back into the game' but it functionally equates to the same thing. Basically I admitted that my vote was placed there off a very microcosm view of his play yesterday, and when I looked at more of his play I decided the vote had no real merit. I don't have an issue with it being called baiting, and I do think there is bait energy there, but it was not my sole nor principal goal in placing my vote as I did.

[Thor665]

@thsp - Just lynch Thor tomorrow. That's all I ask of anypony who is voting me. Lynch Thor tomorrow. He is pushing me in a minimalist (being generous to him) case that only popped up once he got concerned that I was going after him. This is scum who sees a mislynch figuring things out and is trying to diffuse the situation.

Is your case on her basically the ABR miss + the bad case on you? I take it you also have experience with scumRainbow as well.

Yes, I would say that sums up my case.
I've played with her as both alignments, and probably with me as both alignments. It's been a while since our last game together, but considering the function of my case I don't see that being an issue.

Okay, looking back you do basically park your vote there and then basically do other things which ties up with your reasoning. For some reason I thought there was more fire there, maybe I am remembering yesterday.

I dunno, maybe, I did vote him yesterday also. I'm not even sure what you are or aren't vaguely asking me here.

Frankly, I don't really see how this is relevant in any particular way to anything either though. All of my actions line up with everything I've said about them - but it's more relevant with the Rainbow push. My ABR logic flows ungawdly smoothly, and I didn't even realize it till I went back and looked at it - and then you have Rainbow, theoretically fresh off a read of it, acting like it's somehow me coming out of left field and that my actions don't make sense and it's some weird double bus reverse double defense play. It's nonsensical - I'd rather you discuss that with me, or at least discuss both it and whatever you're doing with this line of questioning...that may have just ended anyway, in which case you have time in your day to discuss the Rainbow thing anyway.

[Thor665]

Actually, i don't think Rainbow and I have ever scum/scumed in a game. If she corrects me take her word for it - but I don't really remember it if it did happen.

[Thor665]

I really hate Emo's self-consciousness, and I don't see why more people aren't scumreading her.

Have you read her interactions with ABR? I mean, seriously, you see that as scum/scum?

So you say that you more open to Thor-scum, but then you say that you're not buying a bus? I don't see how those two thoughts work together at all.

If she doesn't "buy" the bus it means she doesn't think I bussed convincingly enough to look town.
Her comment is still nonsensical - but it makes internal sense.

So you think RBD is scum, because she's reading you as scum? That logic seems a little backwards to me.

Emo is reading me as scum and I'm calling her town.
Pay attention to my reasoning and don't engage me on silly debates that have no bearing on what I'm actually doing. I have specifically noted that it's the *reasoning offered* from Rainbow that makes her push on me look scummy to me. What part of that crept by you? I've said it multiple times.

I even said it in the post you quoted.

"I just don't think a town Rainbow would push

this sort of case

on me"

I mean...c'mon man, read pl0x.

[Thor665]

So it's essentially because RBD is experienced/has played with you and is reading you as scum?

....for the reasons she is reading me as scum. Yes. Which I have said a few times.

Also, oddly, just had a game get closed out from 2012 with me and Rainbow as Scum/Scum - Chosen Mafia. Had forgotten it.
Humerously - I was an aggressive busser, almost to the detriment of our team (and by 'almost' I mean....'well, basically 'assuredly' derp on me, really. Though in that game I advocated hard risks for scum teams and no fear of bussing).
In other news, her case remains that I bussed, defended, bussed, redirected/defended, and bussed in this game.


Sheep now?

[Thor665]

I feel like your description and my description match up really well, honestly. I'm fine with people using your description to assess the case on me.

[Thor665]

Here, I'll even official it up since PJ had to try to make my response distant.

You came in and had some jokey interaction over ABR, then defended him, then apparently voted him twilight D2 without mentioning it was meta based, then said it was meta based D3, then you voted Aegor, then you tried to make the Aegor wagon vote kab, then you voted ABR at deadline.

^^^
I fully endorse and agree that this is what I did, and also that this is what Rainbow is saying that I did that is scummy.
Also, I am calling her scum for saying this and acting like it looks scummy at all.

[Thor665]

My lynch pool remains kab,

RBD

, PJ.

Hint.

The only thing I find as a dig against Thor is that he pandered to others in regard to ABR's meta before actually voting that way.

Of course I did, it was clear no one else understood his meta and were calling things scummy that weren't scummy coming from him. All that shows is that I was being town, because I wasn't putting up with false gak in thread..

Is there anyone who thinks kabooooom is town? Someone give me any reason, any reason at all to think he's town.

Counterwagon.
Scum.
Whassup?

Stick on RBD pl0x.

[Thor665]

Can I get your thoughts on my earlier post regarding this, that extend past "Counterwagon to scum", which you keep repeating as if it's meaningful in this instance? Can you also remind me of your top 3 candidates for scum?

I addressed that post - my point was 'whether or not it's theoretically possible that we ran up two scum - he's not a good lynch today regardless'.

My top 3 for scum? I actually don't have that because I have too many town reads at the moment, it's why I'm so focused on Rainbow, either I'm right there, or I'm wrong twice over elsewhere. If all you're hoping to hear is that Kaboom is closer to the scum side than the town side - sure, you can hear that. But, frankly, so are you. Probably if I had to go with a top 3 it would be RBD, PJ, and you. Maybe float Kaboom in there, but with the caveat that i don't really want to lynch him. Also, I'd frankly like to give PJ a bit of time to work through stuff, and don't particularly like any of the cases on him, he's really there just out of PoE for me. To a degree the same for you, except I'm bugged by a feeling of you being a non-entity and lazy in your desired pushes. (like, I barely felt any help from you as regards the RBD push, and now presto you're back to the lazy lynch - whoop-dee-doo)

So, where does this go now?

[Thor665]

Very low chance kabooooom is scum imo. However, I prefer kabooooom to not be a topic of discussion during a lylo. Especially with the amount of flak in the air right now for him, no sane scum would night kill him. There also sure ain't any town reads coming for kabooooom in the immediately future where lylo happens.

[Thor665]

Now is the best time to enforce a policy lynch. Chevre's replacement just subbed in and in the process of catching up and there are 2 days left before we need to lynch and everyone's votes are scattered. Yes, I know you want us to blindly lynch RBD, but no. Enforce policy.

It's Day 4.
We're past the policy point - vote for people you think are scum.

Again, I think "counterwagon to scum" in this particular game is not as meaningful as you seem to think it is. I don't understand your overreliance on it.

I guess my reply was simply the face, but I thinkt hat sums up my thoughts.
I don't understand your unreliance on any reads at all with your current (And past) activity and your lack of pushing on anything while also complaining about deadline.
Vote ruddy RBD.

[Thor665]

i dont get this. i remember thor did this too, but why are you waiting for someone else to vote. i m asking in general irrespective of my wagon.

Because he only wants to be voting the biggest wagon.

[Thor665]

And it all collapses into derp.

[Thor665]

If it makes you feel better I was casting my bet very very wide with that comment, it wasn't directed at you alone.

[Thor665]

VOTE: AEGOR

Ch-ch-ch-ch-chainsaw!!!

You've still missed this; http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p5763087

I don't care that you've now moved on to voting Aegor - I still want you to back up your comments about RBD's case since apparently you still think she's "town as Smurf".

[Thor665]

VOTE: AEGOR

Ch-ch-ch-ch-chainsaw!!!

You've still missed this; http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p5763087

I don't care that you've now moved on to voting Aegor - I still want you to back up your comments about RBD's case since apparently you still think she's "town as Smurf".

Go read her ISO. Oh, wait, you're not going to agree with any of that because RBD has already said it and you didn't like it...

I'm asking you a specific question that cannot be answered by me reading her ISO. I'm asking you for your opinions - I cannot glean your opinions from Rainbow's ISO.
If you can explain how I'm supposed to, maybe that would help, but as far as I can tell it wouldn't.

[Thor665]

Here's the question again, I'm going to quote it out;

"If you think her case is something other than that, let me know what I'm missing - and if you agree with it, let me know that."

How does "read her ISO" answer that? It doesn't even come close to trying. It's not even a valid response, that's like if someone asked me what the weather was like and I answered 'my favorite food is cookies' it's an answer, sure, but it's not an answer to the question i was asked.

[Thor665]

And it all collapses into derp.

[Thor665]

(This is not to say I agree with HighShroomish or think his answer is appropriate - I still think he's way off base.)

Your ding on me doesn't make sense. at least clearly conveys that i do not agree with your reasoning, it was later clarified that...I did not agree with your reasoning, and the only slip was that I thought I had expressed my thoughts (and, when expressed, they work pretty well with as a response)

His response shows...that...he doesn't understand my question?

I'd love to see you move your votes to a wagon that can get a lynch, or

do something

to make your very special cupcake lynch happen.

Are you seriously saying you don't think I've been campaigning over here?

[Thor665]

Let's just do tradesies, Thor.

Tradsies on what?

[Thor665]

I ask because, as far as I can tell, that would mean Tradsies, like, lynch Bulba and then we can lynch Rainbow. I'll note that with this attitude from you 3 people voting Bulba have expressed willingness to lynch Rainbow.
That makes my wagon shockingly strong for having no ruddy votes on it.

[Thor665]

I gave a pointless answer to a pointless question.
Of course I agree with it, although you make it sound like what you did was a good thing compared to what RBD was saying about it. You asked a question that had already been answered before you even asked. And I even said "It's the case I'm too lazy to make."

It's not pointless because I think her case doesn't hold water.

Why do you agree with her that it's somehow scummy that I didn't mention my case was meta at the end of Day 2? She has an issue with this, and I don't understand it, since you like her case can you tell me why this is a point against me?

[Thor665]

For the record, I'm willing to move to Rainbowdash today if it's shown to be a viable wagon. I strongly encourage other people who share this conviction to clearly state so.

You, Aegor, and maybe InHim (he's vaccilating now - which means maybe he was bartering in bad faith) have stated this. I think Bulba was also voting RBD at one stage, and has not reversed his read though his vote has moved, so he's a fair shake to come back on.
Emerald has just voted with this wagon.

So that's 2 votes on, and a potential 3-4 in available play. That's a 5-6 vote wagon at this stage. Maybe you should hop on and see who will join it?

[Thor665]

Or to put it another way, there are two people on the Rainbow wagon and five of us on the bulb wagon. What is stopping you from swinging over and putting him at lynch -1 at this point?

Because I'm pretty indifferent on the Bulb wagon, whereas these other people are listing RBD as an acceptable lynch for them?
That would seem to be the prime motivator for why I think they should move and not me.

[Thor665]

"People need to be willing to compromise"

"Stop trying to convince people to compromise your way - compromise my way instead"

Meh.

[Thor665]

That is so Smurfing dumb. Bulba is at 5 votes. Who else is? NO ONE. So if you wanted your way, you should have gotten votes earlier than 14 hours before deadline.

Spoken like someone who can't read wagon motion.

This could be applied to you too

Yeah, except I'm not daft enough to use it as an argument for why those who disagree with me should compromise.

Rainbow and Bulba still look to be in play at this point.
Except that over a third of the player list are being utterly useless with their votes.

[Thor665]

Then why the pause when you thought she had more votes than Bulba?

[Thor665]

I'm here.
Sell me on the hammer, because I am not convinced a no lynch is a bad thing at this stage.

I don't care about strategy.
Sell me on Bulba scum.

Well derp on you all then.

[Thor665]

Wow.

[Thor665]

Vote: Aegor

Him or Thesp for me at this stage.

@Emerald - I can see why, but it's weak reasoning. Examin it and notice that for yourself - also, pay attention to how Bulba interacted with me as opposed to how I interacted with him and you'll see that he was buddying me. Hint: scum don't buddy their buddies like that, they buddy town who are defending them.

[Thor665]

Unvote: Aegor
Vote: Thesp

I like this.

[Thor665]

Let's toss PJ in as my alternate preference.
Aegor is off the table for me.

[Thor665]

@Thor
I had a townread on garmr day 1, and the bulba flip makes garmr's fights with bulba feel more town. Check out 1409. This kinda makes me think Thesp [Discode [garmr]] is town.

Hurm...I could get behind this.
Wanna help me lynch PJ then?

Unvote: Thesp
Vote: Petroleumjelly

[Thor665]

Question: why did nobody bring this up at all yesterday?

I know I didn't because I am not particularly sold on no lynching as a strategy. I consider it weak wristed and kinda namby, and only to really make sense in 4 person lylo where you lack town reads or in situations involving PR interactions.

[Thor665]

Fear his mighty skillz!

[Thor665]

Though what votes made you like PJ as a lynch?

[Thor665]

(he said awkwardly transitioning from sarcasm to actual question.)

[Thor665]

Are you planning to look at votes today?

[Thor665]

Who do you consider the obv. town players?

[Thor665]

Why not Highshroomish?

[Thor665]

Who, basically, did the same thing to Bulba that Sotty did to ABR - is why I ask.

[Thor665]

Where did you get your list of acceptable lynches from?

[Thor665]

What do you think about the logic Emerald used to clear Garmr/Thesp? I happen to agree with it, and he's your top suspect so I would love to hear why it doesn't look reasonable to you as a town case.

[Thor665]

Garmr also hunted fairly aggressively on ABR.

[Thor665]

Replace out?

[Thor665]

btw..how did this conversation started from, "Though what votes made you like PJ as a lynch?" to "replace out?" ??!!

When someone admits to not reading then my presumption is they're admitting to not giving a whit as to the outcome of the game.
If someone gives not a whit then I presume they are a lead weight around the neck of their team.
I presume you are also claiming to be town.
At that stage you are telling me "hey, team mate - I don't care whether you win or not, so I'mma do what I'mma do!"

I do care a whit if we win or lose.
Therefore, I could do without you in the game.

Make sense?

[Thor665]

I haven't re-read quite yet, and hopefully will get something substantively posted by tomorrow. My apologies for not hopping on this earlier. I am admittedly having a hard time wrapping my head around this game.

I'm not sure why - it's not even that wally or spammy.

[Thor665]

i never said i dont care whether you win or not. and i tried reading this game but its just too much. so i found an quick alternative(watching vote patterns) which i will try after 2 days or so. tell me, what do u think of my answers? u think they r just fluff or did those made any sense(even a bit) at all?

Your answers make sense as a lazy and unhelpful team mate who I would like to replace out.
Do my answers make sense to you?

Replace out?

[Thor665]

You've spent enough time on here debating with me to look at some vote counts.
You're not helping my win con.

[Thor665]

I actually thought his appearance looked fine, and the progression sensible. It's only in light of flips that it looks a bit skeevier.
I'll agree with you that still having Rainbow as a top suspect...eh, not such a fan.

[Thor665]

@kabooooom we have 10 people. If we lynch and scum NK's, we have a 4 person MYLO. I would prefer a No-Lynch now to a No-Lynch with what is probably going to be a very WIFOMy group of 4. Unless scum just decides to be an asshole.
But I don't want a No-Lynch today. Maybe tomorrow. Probably the day after though.

Allow me to explain why this is silly.

Your fear is that we will get to a bad 4 person MYLO.

Hint: we will get to a bad MYLO because scum will shoot town seeming players.
Additional Hint: No lynching does not mean scum will suddenly go "hey, guys, let's shoot a scummy looking player!"
Third Hint: A no Lynch at 4p MYLO is *just* as effective for narrowing the pool as a No Lynch today, or yesterday. Whoop-dee-doo.
Fourth Hint: Town who wants scum kills to help them out...are kinda derpy.

That said, you appear to want to lynch someone today - this pleases me.
But stop pretending like it's somehow good strategy to no lynch 'just because of numbers'.
Even if I didn't think PJ was scum I'd still think that was poor advice.

[Thor665]

I'll agree a no lynch *is* helpful if all of town's lynch choices are totally random.

I'll even support a no lynch if everyone wants to tell me they have no town reads.

If people have any town reads at all though - then the plan is dumb.

[Thor665]

1. Psssh.

2. I don't expect her to, after receiving heat for defending a scumbuddy yesterday, to pull the exact same gambit twice in a row, and then to do so in a weaker way. Either she should have felt he was worth defending or not, but to namby it - I don't think so. A real scum would have had an opinion on their partner, they wouldn't have just walked away from it for the sake of looking nullish. I will agree that Bulba took some actions to connect himself to Rainbow. He also buddied me as well. I consider it an obvious town tell on me, and I consider his lesser buddying on her in the same vein. I'll agree it's not as home run clear, but I'm content not to lynch her today.

[Thor665]

Oh, and;

1) You know what else increases town's chances numerically of lynching scum? No lynching until LYLO - then there is a very high percentage chance of lynching scum.

Whoop-dee-doo.

[Thor665]

I'll agree a no lynch *is* helpful if all of town's lynch choices are totally random.

I'll even support a no lynch if everyone wants to tell me they have no town reads.

If people have any town reads at all though - then the plan is dumb.

how no lynch helps if no one has any town reads?! How can no lynch give any idea of who scum is like lynching does?

I'm an IC in Newbie games quite a bit. I answer questions like this all the time there. I don't feel like writing you a thesis on basic mafia theory and math here though.
Go search MD.

Would love some HS votes though. Or at least thoughts on him -- what do y'all think of HS?

I think he's town.

[Thor665]

(This coming from someone who won't read Day 1? ) I meant further back, to at least skim Bulbazak's interactions with everyone. Not just yesterday.

It is also coming from someone who is active in the game and isn't suggesting the game is being difficult to follow.
I'm not reading because I'm lazy - not because the game is so dense.

If you aren't willing to vote PJ is he still your strongest scumspect? This appears to be true but you're not making many declaratives other than 'uncertainty'.

[Thor665]

Let's just drop the conversation. PJ has presented his thesis and if people like it they can start voting 'no lynch'.

Currently people are voting PJ, so...

[Thor665]

@Sotty - stop being useless Sotty. I've played with dynamic Sotty before, I'd like to play with dynamic Sotty now. Please bring dynamic Sotty out.

[Thor665]

I will see if I can put up more content related to players tonight as I get back to reading.

This is pretty much the tl:dr of the above.

[Thor665]

Thanks PJ, if you are trying to discourage me from playing, you are doing a good job of it.



I actually read that wall, y'know. I don't think it needed to be a wall. I said as much. Keep reading the game, don't waste time verbally sparring with me.