NY 170: Georgetown II (Game Over)

[Aegor]

/confirm.

Unofficial poll: should I bother reading the thread so far?

[Aegor]

VOTE: The Goodfather

I know for sure because my PM says he is scum.

[Aegor]

VOTE: The Goodfather

I know for sure because my PM says he is scum.

Sweet. You're bussing your buddy?

VOTE: Aegor

Whoah. Way to make completely unfounded accusations.

VOTE: Brian Skies

[Aegor]

@aegor, I just got a pm saying something about townies and my favorite flavor of ice cream... If you're intent on going down in flames, try not to drag the nearest idiot with you(that would happen to be me...)

Take it to our QT. No one is going down in flames.

[Aegor]

What is the point of speculation? If we care that much, NL today and see how many people die. Otherwise, let us just proceed seeking out scummy people.

VOTE: Garmr

[Aegor]

Are you serious, Garmr? Your posts 27 and 55 bothered me (purely emotional reaction).

This a scummy post as a no lynch is a bad idea and you never point out reasoning why I you think I am scummy. This is opportunistic,omgussy and a nonsensical this where people should vote.

I never advocated for a NL. It is bad. And if people agree, then there is no reason to bother speculating about the number of scum groups, which is exactly what I said. My vote was not opportunistic (what opportunity), not OMGUSy (you were not voting me), and not nonsensical (what made it nonsense?).

The main point was he was using that to sneak a opportunistic vote under with out explaining himself. What do you think of his voting so far?

We are on page 6. This is a large game. What detailed explanation were you expecting?

So everyone join the Aegor wagon or if you think I'm scum vote me let get things moving.

You are not even ON my wagon. After all that, you are not even voting me?


I am happier than ever with my vote.

[Aegor]

I am happier than ever with my vote.

Why does it matter that he didn't vote you? It's irrelevant to what his role is. Seems awfully discrediting.

Garmr told people to join the wagon on me that he himself was not even on. Enough said. And I never mentioned anything about his role at all. Given that this is a

mountainous

game, the only thing that matters is alignment anyway.

Your posts are horribad.

[Aegor]

I keep mixing the word alignment with the word role. I use both interchangeably by accident. I know he told people to join a wagon on you when he was not on your wagon. What does this have to do with his alignment?

Although I do agree that it is a null tell

.

I absolutely do not find it a null tell. It is incredibly scummy.

[Aegor]

Maybe the actual reason itself why you agreed with emo.

What the fuck are you talking about? Are my direct responses

disagreeing

with emo somehow insufficient for you?

Also noting your relationship with EMO even through she just put words in your mouth you didn't question her straight away.

Why didn't you?

See above. I do not see how anyone could interpret my responses as anything close to "relationship with EMO." If this were not mountainous, I would try everything I could to have both you and Emo annihilated utterly.

Didn't answer your other two questions because it was my stupidity for not voting you and fusing you as one person with another player and they are linked.

What other two questions?

[Aegor]

If this were not mountainous, I would try everything I could to have both you and Emo annihilated utterly.

What does it being mountainous have to do with anything?

Vigs, obvobv.

[Aegor]

You did agree with emo at...She was the only one voting me and your vote came on with no reason. Which means you were sheeping a wagon and agreeing with emo

OMG unbelievable. Voting for the same person is not the same thing as conscious agreement. Did I mention emo's reasoning at all? Was there any indication whatsoever that my vote was in any way connected with hers? I did not even know whom she was voting.

By your bogus reasoning, anyone who happens to RVS someone who has previously been voted is "sheeping a wagon."

You never mentioned this before bulba started scum reading emo why If you really wanted emo gone wouldn't of you voiced it earlier when you were disagreeing.

The tone of my posts speaks for itself. Unless you are suggesting that I engage in liberal FoSes, we are done here.

The ones revolving around not voting you in post 129 question 1 and 3 this can be answered by me fusing you and acidic together in my mind.

LINK

to them. I still have no idea what you are talking about.

[Aegor]

Nope.

[Aegor]

VOTE: ABR

[Aegor]

Not liking the emogril wagon. I agree with OMGML: it is a lazy lynch.

[Aegor]

Not liking the emogril wagon. I agree with OMGML: it is a lazy lynch.

And ABR isn't? Explain.

ABR does not have 8 votes.

[Aegor]

VOTE: kabooooooooooooom

That is one scummy vote.

[Aegor]

Ageor, can I convince you to vote Bulbazak? Your vote on kaboom isn't going to accomplish anything.

We have

ten day

until deadline and only a few players have posted after my vote. One of them also voted kabooooooooooom. Why would you think that the players are brain-dead? That is the only way to justify your claim that my vote will not accomplish anything.

[Aegor]

kaboom is a garbage lynch. If we were lynching scummy votes on my wagon, start with Chevre and ABR.

Please stop talking, otherwise I will hammer you.

[Aegor]

Please do not do that again. For a second I thought you self-hammered, but then I realized Maestro's vote was also an unvote on you.

You told us that you have nothing more to say. So please stick to your words and let others weigh in.

[Aegor]

And in case you need quantitative evidence,

120 of 378 posts are yours

.

There are 19 players in the game. You have made 1/3 of the posts. That is ridiculous. And I am not the first to say this.

[Aegor]

I would now be willing to roll with a Chevre lynch too.

[Aegor]

seriously kaboom... here is my impression of you:

"I'm voting emogirl.... for almost no reason other than everyone else is... and btw, no body else vote for her..."

seriously... wt fuck?

More or less you got that correct! The reason not to vote her is she is L-1. Means any more vote and she is out of the game. And the day overs! We wont have more clues on who the scums are! Mostly scums go for quick hammer! So those who voted her after me take back their votes!

[Aegor]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Chevre

[Aegor]

Tebow stop responding to Bulba. Give me some time to post.

omg please no more.

[Aegor]

@emeraldemon: I would be fine lynching kaboooom as well. His subsequent silence has done nothing to dispel the scummy vibes.


Can we please lynch Chevre already? I daycop investigated him. He is scum.

[Aegor]

As much as I appreciate the detailed comments, that formatting is...not ideal. Also, who are your top scumreads?

[Aegor]

Looking into Bulba. Will post tomorrow.

Does anyone other than yessiree vehemently oppose the Chevre lynch? If so, who are your top-choice candidates for death today?

[Aegor]

I would be fine with a Garmr lynch, especially because he never actually concluded his case against me once he effed up the quote tags.

[Aegor]

In direct response to your question, my vote was low-hanging fruit for a mislynch at that point in the game.

[Aegor]

The fact you describes yourself as low hanging fruit is a bit pathetic in my book. If your town step up your game. If you see yourself as low hanging fruit at least try to hang higher. I think there's only one game I didn't struggle my hardest as town to keep myself from being mislynched (Out of the games I was being scum read) don't use it as a excuse.

I never said I was low-hanging fruit. I said my vote was. That does not mean my vote was bad; it means that it is able to be easily targeted for a mislynch. Anyway, question answered.

[Aegor]

Post 580 is very good.

[Aegor]

Went through ISOs. Slandaar, Acidic_TACO, and The Goodfather are all spectacularly unhelpful. Would be fine lynching any of them, among others.

Could someone please explain (even like 1-2 sentences with links to posts) why Bulba is scum? I have not really seen a coherent case, but perhaps I missed it.

[Aegor]

Just ISOd Bulba. His argument is strong, even if incorrect. He did not misrep or lie or mislead at all.

[Aegor]

Albert B. Rampage
Nobody Special
kabooooom
The Goodfather
Brian Skies
Chevre
SCUM

Do you have any specific reasons for considering these players scummy? Except for Chevre, since you already discussed that.

[Aegor]

VOTE: Slandaar

emeraldemon is a really bad D1 lynch. Slandaar's posts consist of naked votes, fluff, setup speculation, and general badness. He is absolutely useless and this is mountainous so we are in no danger of lynching a PR. He is a great lynch for today.

I do NOT want a deadline wagon. We have 4.5 days left; I recommend that we get our lynch in at least 2 days before deadline. Last-minute swings are annoying, reveal little info, and are very easily manipulated.

[Aegor]

I was never on the emogirl wagon because I never thought she was scum. I do like that she is posting so that we can get other players' input.

I am really not getting the case on emeraldemon. In fact, I see no reason whatsoever to believe he is scum. Even if he were scummy, there is no way he could compare to Slandaar or some of the other players. And at least he is posting. Let us drop the deadweight ASAP please, especially if that deadweight is emitting funky vibes.

[Aegor]

The The Goodfather case was good. And even if I disagree with the ed lynch, your post included links to posts and actual reasoning.

[Aegor]

Why do you disagree with the ed case?

Because I simply did not find the things you mentioned scummy. I have not gotten scummy vibes, and I have done/would do all of the things ed did as town. Even in combination, I am just not feeling it.

[Aegor]

Why were you claiming scum on page 1?

For the lulz. There was little risk and it could have been interesting. But the cynical and jaded players did not bite.


Would also be willing to lynch Taco et al. that I mentioned earlier. Not getting why Maestro is a good lynch.

[Aegor]

Also,

<3 IN HIM

for my favorite post on this site.

[Aegor]

Also, Aegor is scum because of his desire for an artificial deadline that's approaching and not pushing anything hard at the moment. His desire for a lynch happening before the deadline was just him pushing what appears to be a pro-town agenda while not actually caring about it.

What are you talking about? If someone other than Slandaar, Chevre, or Brian is lynched at deadline, what I said will have come to pass exactly as I said it would. And I would say that if that occurs, there is a 90+% chance that no actual case will have been presented against the target.

I explained my Slandaar vote. No one responded. I posted about my preference for a consensus. No one responded. It is not my job to tell other players to read my posts and respond to them. My statements stand and I have explained and justified them. Just watch how this day ends.

[Aegor]

I'm not criticizing your skills at predicting the future.

Then there is nothing for you to criticize.

[Aegor]

I do care. You are really not in a position to posit connections between my intent and my play beyond speculation.

[Aegor]

1) I cut it off at ABR because that was the bottom third of the list. Bottom 6 out of 19-1(emerald) = 18.
2) Remind me please where I stated that Brian Skies an acceptable lynch.

[Aegor]

Considering the game we are playing that really strikes me as nonsense.

Not really. There is a different between saying "this is something scum would do" and "this is something that anyone who cared about X would not do." The burden of proof is much higher for the second.

[Aegor]

In a game with 3 scum asking ed have reasons for scum reads on a third of the player list seems like asking a lot.

Is this an accusation or just a useless statement? If someone manages to rank 19 players; asking why the scummy ones are scummy is hardly unreasonable.

Well, he was on your list in 735. Do you think that he is an acceptable lynch?

That list comprised the three players with the most votes at the moment. Brian is an acceptable lynch to me, although I would rather lynch Slandaar.

Something scum would do is take a position that they think that town would take. Of course town does that too. What's scummy is to take a position that you think appears pro-town, but then fail to back that up with your play.

You are asserting a hypocrisy that simply does not exist.

Have you tried to secure a lynch a couple of days before the deadline in the past?

Yes.

[Aegor]

I think you were trying to put ed in a difficult position by asking him to explain scum reads on a fairly large number of players, six, in a game with three scum, when he didn't even say that he found all those players scummy.

What is wrong with you? I asked a question. ED actually answered it. The suggestion that I would have considered an inability or refusal to respond as grounds for a vote or a scumread is not only purely hypothetical, it is completely unsubstantiated and inaccurate. Not to mention extremely scummy.

No, I am not, but I do think that scummy hypocrisy exists.

And I think with increasing confidence that you are attempting to secure a mislynch.

Can you link an example?

No. It is in an ongoing game. You are more than welcome to ISO me; I have not been in that many games recently.

[Aegor]

Wow. Anyone who was still voting Brian after his exchange with Slandaar a few pages back is now in my potential scumpile.

A few terrible votes from the past few pages:

Well time is short and it looks like it's either gonna be slandaar or brian skies. I could see either as scum honestly but I think I will

VOTE: Brian Skies

I'm pretty sure 101 was sarcasm, and the "important investigations" was probably just BSing, not trying to fake a breadcrum. So... that doesn't leave much.

This is really, really bad. Slandaar had more votes at the time. The VC was literally the post right before ED's. Given that deadline is approaching, it makes zero sense to vote the person who is less likely to be lynched if both could be seen as scum, "honestly." LOL

The following two posts are bad when paired:

And if he flips scum, you're next in my book.

VOTE: ABR, oh no! Must not let Slandaar flip scum and end this game so easily for town. Must put up a fight.

Albert are you going to respond?

Chainsaw much? Way to try to derail the two actual, substantial wagons. And way to grasp onto straws, Slandaar.

VOTE: Brian. thank god for vote counts.

=confscum if Slandaar flips scum.

[Aegor]

Slandaar needs to die. Those unwilling to vote him, please explain why.

[Aegor]

yessiree writes good posts.

[Aegor]

Care to explain?

[Aegor]

A bunch of reasons. I remember he made a bad vote on my wagon making me want to lynch either Chevre/ABR, he made a pretty bad push on Slandaar while pushing emeraldemon and then ended up going on another bad wagon. The right side of my face has swollen to the size of a golf ball and I have a hint if fever.

Post from dream land.

How many games have you ever played with ABR? I'm not sure 'illogical and bad play' is really a valid scumtell on him, and though I think this says something about his playstyle that he may wish to change I'm not sure it's a solid reason to lynch him barring something else.

Your post is basically a justification for catalyzing a change in his play style by means of a policy lynch.

VOTE: ABR

[Aegor]

why is ABR a good vote other than poor play, bad voting, etc

Unvote, vote Slandaar

regardless you still voted against town

Vote: ABR

Cannot believe that more people are not voting Zekrom25.

VOTE: Zekrom25

This has to go now before it becomes an issue later in the game. Would also be willing to lynch ABR for similar reasons.

That being said, Fonz's wall against NS and ABR is quite compelling.

[Aegor]

So, you are willing to lynch Zekrom or ABR for the same reasons?

No; similar reasons. I think zekrom is scum and would rather he be eliminated now because my limited meta on him suggests that his posts will absolutely not provide any material for solid reads in the future. Similar reasoning can be applied to ABR.

Also, Fonz's wall against ABR is compelling.
...why wouldn't you vote ABR right now? Why are you voting Zekrom first?

What the fuck kind of question is this? I find zekrom more scummy and I want him gone with more urgency than I want ABR gone. Why would I be compelled to vote someone just because I find a case on that player compelling, thereby ignoring all other cases and my own reads on all other players?

Serious

Terribad vote.

FTFY

[Aegor]

What do I need to do?

[Aegor]

Your posts seemed to express equality between them though mentioned that someone else's commentary was favorable to you,

The fact that I voted for zekrom tells those who are not brain-dead that I do not view the two players as equally deserving of imminent expulsion from the game.

and that was about ABR, so why do you believe the less supported wagon should go first, and why did you vote it over an ABR wagon?

I really do not give a shit which wagon has more votes unless deadline is looming and I want a lynch. I already told you why zekrom got my vote over ABR.

[Aegor]

It certainly suggests that you might have had a reason, even if you seem unable to express it - yes.
I'm just looking to have it expressed.

Completely bogus reasoning for voting ABR. And his posting will never provide us with a read. And check our mutual game history.

Well...you said you wanted him lynched with more urgency. But that should be part of the conclusion. you think he's more likely scum, therefore you want him lynched more.
I'm curious how you got to the 'more likely scum' part - clarify?

See above.

[Aegor]

What is his 'bogus' reason for voting ABR, a slot you think is scummy?

It is not my job to read the game for you. You are more than welcome to quote zekrom's vote and subsequent posts explaining it. If you still have not identified his bogus reason, at least I will know you have made an effort and will help you out.

Also, what about your game history should I bother looking for when I fakeclaim that I searched it?

Phoning it in much?

[Aegor]

What is OG?

[Aegor]

Still not getting how my zekrom vote was in any way problematic.

[Aegor]

@Aegor: you start off with a vote on Zekrom but finished pointing to other people, makes me hesitate in regards to you/that.

If I had pointed to other people before voting zekrom, would your reaction have been different? That seems like a very tenuous reason.

[Aegor]

Does anyone know offhand anyone who joined and then left the Slandaar wagon? Planning to look back at the wagon but that would help.

[Aegor]

This game is really, really disorganized. And these days are long without much productive discussion IMO. I honestly think we should just decide now which players we still want alive when there are, say, 8 players alive and then just systematically lynch everyone else. And I am bothered by the lack of incisive scumhunting despite the number of posts.

People should ISO Zekrom. Then vote him.

I was fighting for it until my read of Chevre changed. He's now firmly in my town pile. I agree with the Sotty read coming out of the Slandaar wagon analysis. Something felt off about her yesterday that I couldn't quite put my finger on, but looking back it does feel like she was mirroring my positions at every opportunity.

Vote: Sotty7

ABR is town and I'm against the votes on him.
Also don't much like the votes for Zdenek.
Zekrom and NS are both fine votes and I would support either wagon if necessary, but I'm more interested in Sotty

OGML, are these reads still current?

I would be happy lynching NS as well. Fine with ABR lynch, actually.

ABR twice, Sotty7, and Zekrom25, from my count. I tried to analyze the wagon in 1023.

What a coincidence! Those are the people I would love to lynch.

[Aegor]

Yes, like that.

[Aegor]

Any response to any of this?


Everyone: Top three scumreads. Go.

Zekrom
Nobody Special
kabooooom

[Aegor]

VOTE: Nobody Special

[Aegor]

Hey Tony, who's the scummiest player outside the three everyone's talking about?

I'd have to say it's that guy who said we should ISO, then vote Zekrom. That was Aegor, right? I could've sworn it was Aegor.

It was I.

I am on most of the top three lists; just lynch me today. Get rid of kabooooom and Zekrom. You will not want to let them get close to lylo. Anyone who suggests otherwise should be lynched instead.

[Aegor]

k. VOTE: Zekrom

[Aegor]

Agreed about Zekrom. If he is not replaced I want him lynched today.

[Aegor]

Zekrom lynch plz.

[Aegor]

Being a lurksack is more than enough. Meastro was not a strong read either way. I would be willing to lynch all lurksacks.

Out of active players, inHim and ED bother me the most.

[Aegor]

So...your top person that you want to lynch...you can't even tell me why you think he's scum, and he is in fact on your lynch list simply due to policy?

Yes. That is what a policy lynch is. Neither I nor anyone else barring someone with divinely bestowed omniscience will ever be able to form a read on him. We should excise him like a tumor that is potentially malignant.

Can you explain a scum read on the player you find most scummy whether or not you wish to lynch them first?

Still no strong reads; inHim's terrible reasoning for voting me was suspect.

[Aegor]

VOTE: Nobody Special

[Aegor]

Thor, what are you talking about? I was one of, if not the, most mentioned players in the top three lists. Plenty of other people hate me.

[Aegor]

Thor, what are you talking about? I was one of, if not the, most mentioned players in the top three lists. Plenty of other people hate me.

No they don't. They have you as a soft tertiary at best. There is no effort besides mine about discussing your immediate death.

Tertiary out of 17 players? That would qualify as hate.

VOTE: Aegor. Let's end this.

[Aegor]

Just lynch zekrom and kaboooooom and maybe Thor depending on future actions.

[Aegor]

When I flip you will realize that there is, q.v. post 1195. Also lynch NS.

[Aegor]

For the record, my desire to lynch someone at all and the impending deadline are the only reasons I am okay with my own lynch. Those on it should be scrutinized, especially because not a single one has bothered to actually explain why I am scum.

[Aegor]

There was very little consensus on scum suspects and despite 55 pages of game there was very little actual content and even less compelling content. I am not exempting myself from the problem.

Given those two factors, getting rid of useless players and getting to an endgame with active players on whom reads are possible is an excellent strategy. But whatever. Proceed.

[Aegor]

So, with deadline beating down the door of four days away, your lynch is better than...working on any other lynch.


I have too many people I want to see dead and too many of them clamoring to be on that list due to policy reasons alone.
I honestly sort of thought when I got into this game that, due to the setup, it would be full of semi-sane players as opposed to the twinks currently infesting the site.
I am disappoint.

Get real and do not call me insane. Do you really think that I could swing a lynch in three days? I have been clamoring for votes on Zekrom, kabooom, and NS for some time now. No traction AT ALL, except a little on NS. And now I am at four or five votes in like a page? Come on. Why do you think that is?

This game is mountainous. It is always better to lynch than to no lynch. If you have some magical case against someone, go ahead and present it. Otherwise, take the small step off your soapbox and stop complaining about how useless everyone else is when you are doing squat to actually scumhunt, which is apparently important to you.

VOTE: Thor665

[Aegor]

Well...first off, your clamoring was, literally, just that. You never actually tried to engage anyone or convince anyone, you were just going with repitition and trying to act like that was a case.

The repetition was not ill-founded. I believe in policy lynches. I also believe that they should occur as early in the game as possible. They are even better in this game because there is no chance of lynching PRs but some chance of lynching scum.

Despite this, your "little bit of traction on NS" remained the LARGEST WAGON IN THE GAME AT THAT POINT.
At that point, with only me even commenting about you - you decided to vote yourself.

You are straight-up lying. Other players had been commenting on me for pages, and out of the SEVENTEEN PLAYERS alive, I was in the top three for almost everyone who responded to my query.

The reason your wagon got so big so quickly is a mix of people being lazy right now and you AtEing like a boss - and people love to vote AtE.

In which case my flip will yield some nice lynch suspects for tomorrow.

Also, this shockingly huge wagon on you...it's not much bigger than that super difficult one "you" got on NS.
So...I dunno, what does that mean?

Compare the speeds.

I'm actually doing quite a bit to scumhunt.

No, you are not. Scumhunting results in solid leads and solid cases against specific players. That is not happening with you. You "hate" me but have no case on me. And the deadline is three days away. No one legitimately scumhunting would risk waiting until after that to present a case against a player they really want lynched.

Regardless of the basic core strategy that "a lynch is better than a no lynch" you are, nonetheless, advocating a vote on a person you (theoretically) know to be confirmed town. Hint - that is never a good play...except maybe in some weird multiball setups or in Reverse Mafia, or unless you are scum. Is this one of those situations? If so, I retract any claims I have about the lack of quality of your current play.

It is not necessarily bad play. I find it unlikely that your tunneling on me will ever end, so I may as well free you up to look at other suspects or get lynched yourself. But you are crazy if you think it is good for me as town to be fighting tooth and nail for my continued survival in a mountainous game until lylo.

[Aegor]

Tony PF, the day is not ending early. It would be ending on time. Deadline lynches are the worst possible lynch for town and anyone advocating them in any way, in theory or practice, will receive a vote from me that will not move until one of us is dead.

[Aegor]

Yes, I agree your case was shallow and based on repetition and policy as opposed to scumhunting. Heck, i thought I already made clear that this was the basis of my case on you.

Policy lynches are not scummy.

If you don't think I started the wagon on you I'd be fascinated to hear who you think did.

You said that you were the only one talking about me. Now you are saying that you started the wagon. Stop moving the goalposts.

The wagon on you built faster than the one on NS. It also built faster than the one that never happened on InHim. It also was harder to start than the one on Zekrom.
What information should I now glean from this info?

You keep saying that you have been scumhunting and I have not been. Surely you know better than to ask me.

I'd presented my case on you days ago.
It got traction when you AtEed.

You never presented a case. You kept asking me inane questions and not listening to my responses, instead asking more questions with obvious answers.

This from "policy lynch lurkers"?

The two positions are not incompatible.

I always think it is a good policy, as town, to fight your lynch.

I happen to think otherwise.

When I am town I have never had it in my wincon to mislynch town nor to hand scum easy mislynches.
Maybe I play badly, but that's how I read the role PMs.

We read role PMs differently. My role PM says that I win when all maf are lynched. Yours must be more detailed. I guess that proves I am scum.

I will happily self-hammer if we are getting close to deadline. I want a lynch lined up at least 48 hours before deadline.

[Aegor]

Like all scumtells, that's a matter of opinion.

Tells cannot be matters of opinion, otherwise they would not be tells.

I was the only one talking about you, and I was the one who started the wagon on you because of that fact.

Lies. I was mentioned in the posts of other players, which means other players were talking about me.

I thought you had some ideas about this info. Was I wrong?

I will let the players read between the lines on that one.

Perhaps not, but I do submit there is some easy to spot intrinsic hypocrisy in believing both at the same time.

It is impossible for them to be compatible and hypocritical. Either they are incompatible or it is possible to believe both without hypocrisy.

I pray that you are always town when I am scum, and never town when I am town then.

You should probably wait until we both flip to make that prayer.

[Aegor]

With Aegor, his defense looks *immensely* bad to me, he's throwing up AtE while *also* claiming he's willing to die for the town (which begs the question of why he's defending...?) and then, as a third, is not actually willing to discuss the reads and thoughts he is asking others to consider.

My reads are in my ISO. As I said, this game is 55 pages with maybe 1 page of usable content.

The possible counterpoint to it (and th eonly one I see) is he's just gut a burr up his backside as involves Thor (shocking, i know, but it is a thing ) so the question to debate is - are the above listed actions because he's scum, or because he's a weak player who has become offended at me on a personal level and stopped playing the game?

...Neither? And your false dichotomy is noted.

[Aegor]

Yep.

[Aegor]

sighs

at the beginning of day 2 town was for a ABR Lynch so what happened ?

Are you still in favor of an ABR lynch?

[Aegor]

OMG. VOTE: Zekrom

PEOPLE, THIS WILL NEVER END UNLESS WE END IT.

[Aegor]

VOTE: NS

Will join the largest wagon, no questions asked. I would not mind lynching ABR or inHim.

[Aegor]

Any lynch wagon that gains momentum in the last day or two.

[Aegor]

Deadline lynches are bad but better than a no-lynch unless the would-be lynch is a great player. This is just math, and guaranteed math given that this setup is mountainous.

My earlier admonishment was delivered so that we could collectively reach a decision before pressure created exploitable opportunities and rash decisions. It is in the interest of scum to wait until the last moment and push sub-par lynch. People generally want a lynch and are willing to go along. Deadline lynches are almost always sub-par.

[Aegor]

Reading though his ISO there are a couple of things that I kinda almost hate. An unexplained vote on Chreve, the way he abandons his good early pressure on Garmr for an easier ABR vote.

My Chevre vote has no real explanation that I can remember. I do not even remember my early pressure on Garmr, and I could lynch ABR with no regrets. Frankly, a game of this size is very difficult for me to manage, which is why I want to whittle it down, but I will try my best to keep track of everyone.

His votes on Chreve/ABR/NS could be explained away by this comment on wanting to lynch all “lurk sacks” and his desire to achieve a lynch.

Yes.

I would like him to explain the differance between this post and this one. I have a idea, but would like it in his own words.

I have advocated for self-hammers in other games when the deadline is looming. Self-hammering because of frustration is just silly.

[Aegor]

No. NS is closer to a lynch but several votes.

[Aegor]

*by

[Aegor]

It takes nine votes to lynch. Your desired lynch is voted. Vote NS and I will vote ABR tomorrow.

[Aegor]

We have less than two days to deadline. If we have a no lynch that could have been avoided my vote will be on you until one of us is dead.

[Aegor]

Then vote NS, Matias. At worst he is deadweight.

[Aegor]

Garmr, why would you think there is even time to lynch you at this point? Lynch NS.

Aegor is all over the place. In 1274 he suggests that he be lynched but also that kabooooom and Zekrom need to be rid of as well. If you're town, why not focus on forming cases for those two instead of pitching martyrdom?

My case is that they have posted so little no other case is possible. That is always scummy to me. ABR and inHim suffer the same problem.

He depicts himself as a strong suspect to most of the players yet says that there is little consensus among the players for suspects.

Little, not none.

[Aegor]

Vote NS.

[Aegor]

Because a lynch is better than no lynch and we are running out of time.

Do you honestly think he will be anything other than a lurking null read? At this point, that is definitely good enough.

[Aegor]

Except deadline wagons are the worst, as I have said many times in this game and in other games. They are risky not only because they could fail but because they tend to be based on terrible reasoning and yield less info than deliberate lynches. Anyone rousing up a deadline lynch is claiming scum.

[Aegor]

It is a wagon on a player who is a non-entity.

[Aegor]

"High chance of being town?" lol

[Aegor]

k. Well that is not good enough when there are almost ten players willing to vote a player whose contributions are practically nonexistent.

[Aegor]

ISOing Fonz.

If ABR is not even going to read the game he should be lynched.

[Aegor]

ISOing Fonz.

If ABR is not even going to read the game he should be lynched.

I'm doing the same thing as Thor.

At least Thor is posting content that can be scrutinized later.

VOTE: ABR

[Aegor]

Fonz's Bulba read fell off. His primary suspects were Chevre and zdanek. I would not mind lynching either of them today either.

[Aegor]

Fine with an inHim lynch too. My vote is staying for the moment.

[Aegor]

kabooooooom also self-voted and said he was having problems improving his game too.

Bulba also posted an awesome case.

[Aegor]

Bulba also posted an awesome case.

Do you remember what exactly you liked about that Garmr case?

The fact that it was thorough and that Bulba's analysis was solid. I was convinced. And it was the most detailed argument in this entire game, with Chevre's IIoA posts being exactly that.

[Aegor]

VOTE: kaboooooom

[Aegor]

VOTE: ABR

[Aegor]

VOTE: kaboooooom

VOTE: ABR

What are you doing?

ABR was going nowhere, so I switched. Then it went somewhere, so I switched back.

[Aegor]

Can we please just lynch ABR already? I am also happy with a flash kab wagon.

[Aegor]

I was voting kab earlier in the game. ABR is at L-1. Forgive me for thinking that he is the easiest lynch at this point. Nothing would give me greater pleasure than lynching kab tomorrow.

[Aegor]

I was voting kab earlier in the game. ABR is at L-1. Forgive me for thinking that he is the easiest lynch at this point. Nothing would give me greater pleasure than lynching kab tomorrow.

Are you looking for the easiest lynch or a lynch on scum?

Both? Either?

Exactly that. There is the issue.

Most of the ABR wagon seems to be going "oh yeah but kab wagon is fine" but have been avoiding it

. Never even mentioning him until I press the issue and the rest of the game is lurking not even talking about the wagon. The fact that I am probably fighting the wagon the most while saying "yeah its an okay lynch" it feels wrong. Good for information still yes, but wrong.

I agree completely. But all those posts are now part of this game's record, and their authors can be held accountable if they refuse to vote kab tomorrow.

[Aegor]

@Aegor
It's one thing to go for the biggest wagon when there's three days left. We have more than a week left. I refuse to believe we can't do better than a policy lynch. Yet your favorite wagons have been Zekrom, Kaboom, ABR. What are your reads? You didn't like Chevre's vote Day 1, have you changed your mind?

Chevre is basically null at this point. If you want reads, here is my lynchpool:

ABR, kab, Matias, any other lurkers, Garmr, inHim

Bulba's case on Garmr is sadly lost at the moment but basically convinced me. It would be sheeping, but I would have no problem voting Garmr. inHim's posts have been weakly-reasoned and just off all game.

[Aegor]

Aegor, why do you want to lynch ABR?

Because there is irrational resistance to his lynch without a strong defense.

[Aegor]

ABR must die gogogogo

[Aegor]

Yeah there are a couple of things very wrong with that statement.

Earlier you said you wanted ABR because that's where momentum was. Now its your vote that is putting him as the lead vote getter instead of kab. So why ABR over kab?

Because there is irrational resistance to his lynch without a strong defense.

[Aegor]

While not presenting alternatives that are not compromise lynches themselves? Yes. Lynch ABR, then lynch kab tomorrow. I think there are very good odds that at least one of them is scum.

[Aegor]

The ABR wagon has preceded the kab wagon.

I still do not know why people are not willing to lynch ABR. Everyone is saying it is a compromise but Bulba is the only player who has actually presented a strong case against another player who is presumably his first choice for scum.

[Aegor]

KILL ABR KILL ABR KILL ABR KILL ABR KILL ABR

VOTEVOTEVOTEVOTEVOTEVOTEVOTEVOTEVOTEVOTEVOTE

[Aegor]

1) It's not just that he wants to lynch lurkers. He insists that there is no better use of our days and our lynches. He has said repeatedly that there is no useful information in the game so far (1351, 1378). He doesn't try to scumhunt; he doesn't want us scumhunting.

That is such a misrepresentation. I am not opposed to scumhunting. It is just that before this case, Bulba is the only freakin' player who has actually attempted to construct a case or probe anyone in any significant way. This game suffers from massive lethargy, and I do not have the energy to resurrect it by myself. It is ridiculous to claim that I am suppressing scumhunting when in fact I am just proposing a rational procedure given a game with no scumhunting in it.

He wants to draw attention away from actual debate

and make it seem like "OMG guys lurkers everywhere" is useful content.

[/quote]
Debate was not happening. I love debate. And I love cases. And although this case is directed against me, I still very much appreciate the fact that you made it.

3)

The only wagon he hasn't hopped on was emogirl's.

That wagon was terrible.

This isn't just near the deadline, to avoid a no-lynch.

Yes it is, given that we have no one lined up for a lynch.

[Aegor]

I wouldn't say that nobody is scumhunting. In fact, we've had a lot go on in this game. Why aren't you scumhunting?

Separating wheat from chaff in this game is step one of my scumhunting. Step one is not yet complete.

Why was it terrible?

Baseless wagons can be fun and informative, either intentionally or not. The wagon on Emo was portrayed as legitimate even though it made no sense from the beginning. My problem was with the votes accompanied by statements that they were somehow reasonable or justified based on emo's play. I am happy to provide more detail, but will probably not bother doing so if I am about to be lynched. Just being realistic.

Unvote

Vote Aegor

Bring it on, people!

[Aegor]

As I said, bring it on.

[Aegor]

You are proposing a procedure where we give up on scumhunting and spend (2? 3? how many?) more days lynching lurkers. But if you were just town with a bad idea, that wouldn't bother me. I think if you were town you would actually care about where the wagons were going, and not join all of them indiscriminately. I think if you were town you would ask people questions, try to sort us, point out things that seemed funny or strange to you.

Okay.

1) Nero Cain thinks he found a scumslip from Bulbazak 1687. Do you agree?

No. Bulba's posts were not inconsistent with each other, and I see nothing that could be interpreted as a scumslip.

What's your read on Nero [Tony PF [emogirl]]?

Null. Would not attempt to stop a lynch.

2) You wanted Zekrom's blood, but he's been replaced by Rainbowdash. Do you still want that slot lynched? What do you think of Rainbowdash's vote?

Given that Rainbow also recognizes the value of policy lynches, I love the kab vote. And my desire for Zekrom's blood was on a policy basis more than anything.

3) ABR is replacing out, if he is replaced by an active player will that still be your #1 lynch priority?

His posts are bad. A decent replacement will move me to kab.

This isn't even looking back very far, this is just stuff from the last few pages. Are you still going to claim there's no content in this game?

Yes.

[Aegor]

Because his posts are so bad I do not care enough and the wagon had formed. But I will attempt to expend more energy on this black hole of a game.

VOTE: Kab

Serious vote on someone whom I find scummy. Would also (legitimately) be willing to lynch inHim, whose posts beginning with his suspicion of me are extremely flawed beyond reason for anyone experienced at all.

[Aegor]

Mod: could you pause the deadline countdown until the player slots are filled.

Mod, I implore you not to pause the countdown and only extend the deadline minimally, if at all.

[Aegor]

Why is inHim scummy? Have the ISO ready; these are in chronological order and I do not feel like linking the posts (there are only 46 anyway)

-Insists ABR is town several times for no reasons (ISO4, ISO8).
-ISO13 is all sorts of bad. He did not like my vote, but did not at that point ask me about it, instead voting Bulba. He justifies this using tortured and nonsensical reasoning in ISO16, in which he claims that he was scumreading Zekrom. But since he did not like

one vote

on Zekrom that he did not even bother to investigate, he votes Bulba? That makes no sense. The lack of push to acquire information about the situation is also bad.
-ISO20 is awful, as I noted.
-Says several players are town. No explanation. No explanation for his scumreads either.
-Votes ABR in ISO35 despite no trajectory (meh) and no explanation of what changed his mind (bad). Basically asks others to build his case on ABR for him in ISO37.

And I do not like his indifference to kab and his willingness to lynch Matias but unwillingness to lynch kab.

[Aegor]

Because this interminable day should end and while it is possible that you can swing a lynch one me, which would not be a terrible one (besides the fact that I am town), getting one on kab is more likely. And his play has been awful at best this game.

[Aegor]

ABR people: Please switch to kab, or explain why ABR is especially scummy.

[Aegor]

I have mentioned indifference between ABR and kab lynches several times. I really...I have no more energy. Please, can we just lynch someone. I will happily self-vote if a wagon on me starts. I just cannot take this hell anymore.

[Aegor]

I don't do meta ever.

[Aegor]

ABR was stalling. Kab was worth a shot. Still not getting why no one is voting me if I am so scummy.

[Aegor]

His wagon was stalling, I mean.

[Aegor]

Exactly my thoughts on this game at the moment.

[Aegor]

If it were going to lead to a lynch, it would have.

[Aegor]

^Why kab is a better lynch than ABR, although both are acceptable.

[Aegor]

Because it is incredibly scummy.

"I am scummy."
"Do not lynch me even though I am scummy."
"I have done nothing pro-town."
"Do not lynch me even though I have done nothing pro-town."
"I will make my activity an ultimatum."


Every single one of those thoughts is a reason you should be lynched.

[Aegor]

OK, so you're saying his actions are consistent with his opinions, which is null. But both his actions and his opinions are scummy.

I beg to differ.

Scum has good reason to do the things he's been doing and town doesn't.

Scum has good reason to vote. Does that make voting scummy?

Lamenting that this game is a black hole is a great excuse never to contribute.

But I am not NEVER contributing. I am not merely complaining. I am suggesting a course of action that will lead to a remaining playerlist the members of which will have provided plenty of information on which to base reads and lynches.

Policy lynches are a great way to delay and avoid actual scumhunting.

And a great way to avoid an apathetic game and an endgame full of players on whom reads are impossible.

[Aegor]

Given that ABR demolished Slandaar and Slandaar's play was scummy (as I said), I really cannot agree with you there. Votes on Slandaar were legitimate and I am unwilling to hold it against ABR.

[Aegor]

I think I may be confusing ABR and Brian Skies. Regardless, ISO'd ABR and found nothing spectacularly awful regarding Slandaar. I would still be happy to lynch ABR.

Zde, wake up. How many players were talking about how much time we had four days ago? What has happened since then? Absolutely nothing. We are now a little over two days from deadline. Are we even going to lynch someone today? How many players have been prodded this game day? How many are in a prod state right now? Do we even know whether they will post? Will ever subsequent game day be like this? Do you want five or six players replacing out every game day?

Get a grip. The people that will never produce viable reads should be annihilated before it is too late to rid ourselves of them safely. Plus, Huntress' job is easier. You may be fine dragging this game out until the end of eternity, but I am not. And at least some of the lurkers have a good chance of flipping scum.

Lynch any of them. Do not care. ABR, Matias, kabooooooooooooom. Can we please just do something instead of fabricating completely bullshit assertions of defense?

VOTE: ABR

If a No Lynch occurs today I am vote parking on myself and prod dodging until I die.

[Aegor]

VOTE: kab

[Aegor]

People not voting ABR or kab should switch to one of them.

[Aegor]

Says he finds nothing scummy about ABR. Just finished railing on Kabooom. Then talks about lurkers. Switches vote off of lurker onto person in need of replacement (who could actually be an active poster upon replacing in, i.e. we could get an actual read from them) once momentum starts shifting that way. Further down, switches vote back once momentum is deflated.

Every single word of that is true.

[Aegor]

HS, vote kab.

[Aegor]

HS, vote kab.

Oooor, you could vote ABR and we would only need two other people to reach a lynch.

I will lynch ABR tomorrow with you. Kab today.

[Aegor]

PEOPLE VOTING ABR, SWITCH TO KAB. Surely no one can argue that kab is so useful as to merit another shot at life, so join the wagon.

[Aegor]

I am going to shit myself in anger if there is a No Lynch today.

Anyone not voting kab is hardclaiming scum.

[Aegor]

You have to compromise. We have no time left.

Lynch kab today. Lynch ABR tomorrow. Everyone wins. Why is this so effing difficult to do? Clearly there is support enough for both lynches so can we please just do it already?

I will let the indomitable Madeline Kahn express my feelings:

Spoiler:

And to the people who said we had plenty of time like five days ago, maybe you now understand why I was trying to get a lynch settled then.

[Aegor]

ZDENEK VOTE FOR KAB YOU INSUFFERABLE DONUT

[Aegor]

@Mod: If a no lynch occurs today, please modkill all those in need of replacement activity-wise.

[Aegor]

DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE




AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[Aegor]

Rainbowdash,

This pony is confused about why THERE IS NO LYNCH YET. I WILL LITERALLY VOTE FOR ANYONE JUST TO GET A LYNCH. CAN WE PLEASE HAVE SOME SORT OF CONSENSUS? EVERY SUBSEQUENT POST SHOULD EXPRESS WILLINGNESS OR SCUM CLAIM -- I MEAN UNWILLINGNESS -- TO SWITCH BETWEEN ABR AND KAB.

[Aegor]

VOTE: abr

[Aegor]

YEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSS.

Spoiler:

[Aegor]

From my notes:

Code: Select all

979 -- inHim ABR defense
983 -- crap ABR vote
992 -- Sotty reluctance to vote ABR
998 -- Bulba switches focus
1575 -- HS steals attention with Bulba vote
1609 -- kab vote on policy
1638 -- Rainbowdash
1656 -- ED deflection
Chevre opposed wagon

inHim calls ABR town in post 979. Zekrom's vote for ABR in post 983 is horribad. Sotty soft-defends ABR in Post 992 and then tries to direct attention toward Zdenek. Post 994 begins Bulba's persistent soft defense/complete indifference to the ABR wagon. No me gusta. HighShroomish comes out of nowhere to vote Bulba in Post 1575, so Bulb and HighShroomish are probably not buddies because derailing a wagon on a buddy in favor of a wagon on another buddy makes little sense. Post 1609 is RB's redirection of the focus onto kab. This coupled with Zekrom's bad vote and RB's lip service to being okay with lurker lynches but never mentioning ABR is just bad, q.v. 1638 as well. Finally, ED deflects attention by voting me and has ABR firmly in the middle of the read list.

Lynch pool today: Bulb, Rainbow, Emerald. Fine with inHim as well.

Also fine with a kab lynch, although given the associations and his being the target of a counterwagon, he is no longer high-priority.

VOTE: Bulb

[Aegor]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: RainbowDash

Also kab should die if he is still useless by the end of this game day.

[Aegor]

He said he is comfortable with my or ABR lynch, but when ABR has more votes he wants me to get lynched first and ABR later..i dont see town doing that. looked to me like he wanted me lynched and then next day he would try to divert attention to some other player.

Except I voted ABR and was tired of the flip-flopping wagons. And I voted ABR. And I said many times that I would like you both lynched in succession, which means there is no way I could have randomly decided to pursue another avenue after lynching you. And there was no incentive for me to vote for ABR at the end of his wagon anyway.


I am really liking emogirl's case on Chevre. Still think we should lynch Rainbow though.

[Aegor]

VOTE: Chevre

[Aegor]

1. my case wasnt that strong enough.
2. i realized there wont be any votes in that wagon.

Why would you vote with a weak case? What is your case? Why should I not believe that you were hoping to get a wagon on me with no justification and backed off once you realized you could not secure my mislynch that easily?

This is a better vote than your last one.
So I take it you agree with me that he's pretty obv. town and that's why you unvoted?

Bulb? He is in my top 3 scumreads.

[Aegor]

But still significantly (in the statistical sense) less scummy than Rainbow, whom I want to die ASAP. And emo's case on Chevre is not half-bad, especially by this game's standards.

Kab could displace Bulb if kab's posting is as awful (like scummy awful, not incompetent town awful) as it has been lately.

[Aegor]

Since several people have brought it up, I will respond to the general claims about my wagon-hopping yesterday. I really was indifferent between ABR and kab lynches. As I said many times, I was happy to lynch them in succession. After the ABR wagon stalled several times since its first iteration on Day 2 (IIRC), I figured it would be easier to just remain on the kab one, especially since Rainbow was explicitly in favor of that. Near deadline, the ABR wagon fortunately gained traction again and I was more than happy to join it for the tenth time or whatever.

The suggestion that I was hoping to avoid it is absurd. That requires one to assume that I would directly contradict my stated intention of lynching whichever was not lynched yesterday today. Such a contradiction would be obvious and extremely suspicious, and rightly so.

That is really all there is to it. So if that explanation is unsatisfactory, lynch me right now and get it over with. But I really do not want to hear any of this again otherwise, and I do not want to be kept until endgame just to be lynched on something that happened on Day 3 and about which no new information can be acquired.

[Aegor]

Basically I could be convinced when it comes to Aegor now. His pressure on me to unvote ABR yesterday when he was the leading wagon was all out of whack.

You must have me confused with someone else. I never pressured you to unvote ABR. In fact, I maintained throughout the entire day that I would be perfectly content with an ABR lynch. Please quote my statements that led you to believe I was pressuring you to unvote ABR specifically. I just wanted a lynch and was tired of the momentum shifting between the wagons. My bad for wanting progress. Did I not express willingness and outright desire to lynch ABR today if kab had been lynched yesterday?

State intent to lynch either.
Actively work on building the one that isn't your buddy.
If buddy goes through vote him at 11th hour.
Claim town points due to, y'know, helping lynch scum.

That seems like scum 101 to me. How do you figure it's so outlandish and/or not what you did?

Normally people building a counterwagon do not set themselves up to lynch their buddy the next day and attempt to build a wagon on someone over the course of two days. The only reason I was voting kab was that the ABR wagon had stalled several times over two game days.

Yeah, that's what really made me move from town towards scum when it comes to Aegor. The fact he basically refused to vote ABR until it was painfully clear Kab wasn't being lynched even though ABR was the biggest wagon.

That is just false. Count the number of ABR votes in my ISO and get back to me.


VOTE: Rainbow

I want Rainbow dead. I also do not want to hear any more crap about my involvement on the wagons yesterday,

so either lynch me today or STFU about it henceforth

.

[Aegor]

This isn't a good enough reason to like a case. What in particular do you think is good about it?

All of it. It is logically valid and plausible, given that soundness is an impossible expectation.

[Aegor]

@Bulb: Post 1880.

Oh, and by the way, anyone even discussing my wagon hopping yesterday while ignoring Rainbow's clear attempt to make a kab lynch occur instead of an ABR lynch should either read the thread more carefully or just be honest with us and claim scum.

[Aegor]

And it was true that I would lynch either. What is the problem there? The difference between me and Rainbow is that I explicitly stated intention to lynch BOTH ABR and kab if necessary and Rainbow clearly attempted to push the kab wagon over the ABR wagon hoping to avoid an ABR lynch.

I never said that I do not want to lynch kab. I simply said I have higher priority targets today given ABR's flip. Had ABR flipped town, I would be all over kab today. And I am not going to resist a kab wagon today.

[Aegor]

Read his ISO from the beginning of Day 3 onward and then post that you have read it. We can go from there; I have no interest in discussing this with someone who has not done his research.

[Aegor]

Why I want RBD dead:

Calls ABR lynch good for providing info (1600). Agrees with my desire to cull lurkers (1600). RBD cannot be said to believe that ABR is actually contributing or doing something other than lurking as a result. Votes kab in 1609 on a policy basis, ignoring other players (e.g. Matias) that are equally lurky. Continues to claim that ABR is a good lynch, e.g. in 1781, but it never actually goes anywhere. Defends ABR in the ABR v. Slandaar discussion, and rightly so (1803). Sets up lynches in case kab is town but never actually discusses what we should do if kab flips town. Pursue ABR? Look at other lurkers? etc. In other words, RBD ostensibly wants to kill lurkers and cull weak members but then pursues only kab with a focus too narrow to be consistent with the general principles allegedly driving RBD's push.

Still have not seen a single shred of evidence or any compelling reason whatsoever to consider emo scum.

[Aegor]

@Aegor: So with the exception of defending ABR, he's doing exactly what you've been doing, only he's taking it one day at a time instead of lining them up like you did.

Absolutely not. My actions are consistent with my general principle, which is to eliminate lurkers and inactive players and abysmal players. The fact that I was mostly indifferent between different lynches is thus consistent with the method I used to narrow down the lynch pool. RBD espoused a general principle but then chose not to discuss the application of the principle to any player except kab.

[Aegor]

Did anybody ask him about any other lurker lynch besides Kab (and no, person about to be replaced does not count as a lurker)?

RBD opened the door as an ABR lynch and maintained that it was good at an informational level even after the replacement came in. And if one's policy is stated before particulars are discussed, then the audience reasonably expects all particulars which fit under the principle to be discussed. Instead, RBD went straight for kab's jugular. If RBD had merely come in and stated that kab's lynch was fine because lurkers should be culled, we would not be having this conversation. My problem is that RBD ignored everyone except kab even though her basis for voting kab would apply equally well to other players.

[Aegor]

Actually,

VOTE: Bulba

Emo push is terrible. Subtly defended ABR. Chainsawed hella when the ABR wagon was gaining traction.

[Aegor]

So I question your reasoning, and you decide the next step is attacking me?

If that is your summary of what has happened, my vote is well-placed.

Also, point out where I'm chainsaw defending ABR, because I didn't know it was possible to subtly defend and chainsaw defend at the same time.

Chainsaw defense is a subset of what I would call subtle defense. If you prefer "indirect" to "subtle," substitute that instead.

Post 1634 includes a misrep of HS' ABR vote. HS voted because she found ABR scummy, and you strawmanned by stating that ABR is lurking and that is the basis for HS' vote. Post 1672 states he will examine ABR wagon (why, exactly?). Post 1719 involves as an assumption ABR's flipping town. Otherwise, it would make no sense to vote the people who want to lynch ABR at all costs. That assumption is not acknowledged and has been demonstrated to be false. The reasoning also implies that the ABR wagon is opportunistic. This very post should clear me i.a., since there is clearly no motive for scum to push at all costs the wagon of a scumbuddy who has asked for replacement.

Your only real contribution to the ABR/kab wagons was persistent insistence that ABR should not be voted because he was being replaced, as if the only reason anyone was voting him was that he was a lurker. This both misrepresents some of the votes on his wagon and makes no sense in the first place: why should a scummy player who replaces out not be lynched?

You furthermore chastise me for looking only at his wagon while ignoring associative tells while he was alive. If those are so important to you, why do you not provide an analysis of those tells yourself? There is no reason to outright dismiss the information provided by the flip, especially when no one else (even the ones accusing me of cursory research) has increased the knowledge bank. I provided something I thought was worth considering about ABR's potential scumbuddies. What have you done in that regard?

[Aegor]

VOTE: kab

[Aegor]

My bad.

[Aegor]

You say Rainbow is scum for reasoning that is essentially the same as your own. I question you on it. You vote me. What am I missing?

The post in which I explained exactly how our reasoning differs substantially.

Chainsaw defenses are not subtle. They're pretty aggressive. Also, "indirect" and "subtle" do not mean the same thing.

I consider chainsaw defenses both subtle and indirect. Your semantic distinctions are a smokescreen, so let us move on plz. You now know exactly what I meant.

I was calling him out on his hypocrisy. I never said that was the reason for his vote. Btw, what you just did actually

was

a misrep.

Not at all, and your misrep persists because HS did not categorize ABR as a lurker; you did. HS explicitly stated that ABR was scummy and never even suggested that ABR is a lurker. It is not unreasonable for someone to believe that ABR's posting passed the threshold of lurker/active. Even if you did not in any way suggest that HS used lurking as justification for the vote, your point is still undermined by HS' earlier statements that lynching lurkers qua lurkers is bad policy. The vote on ABR was prepared and anticipated by this framework. You are categorizing ABR yourself and then claiming that HS was categorizing him in the same way.

The wagon on ABR built up extremely fast, and I found that to be odd and unnatural. My first instinct was that the wagon was scumdriven, which would imply ABR-town. Given that, of course I was going to analyze it. Wouldn't you?

Not until the flip.

Technically it should. However, your behavior around the wagon yesterday, coupled with your behavior today is making me think something is off.

I will push for my own lynch at some point if I am worried that scum are preparing my endgame mislynch by creating trajectories that defy reason and are based on unverifiable feelings.

I dislike voting or lynching slots that are looking for replacements. It seems rather cheap and an easy way for scum to score a mislynch. I'd rather wait for a replacement who, if town, could be a boon to the game. Saying the slot is scummy is one thing, but if there are still multiple scumreads in the game, I don't see why that slot should go first.

Because the slot is scummy. I have little interest in discussing theory, but the desire to lynch a slot facing replacement is in no way problematic at all. I am open to being disproved by statistical analysis of such cases.

Saying I'm not looking at possible associatives is vastly ignoring my most recent play.

I am seeing very little in that respect. Perhaps you could point out the pre-wagon associatives.

[Aegor]

You mean that your reasoning is essentially "He voted Kaboom while I voted ABR.". That reasoning? If the votes were reversed, would you be scum?

That is not at all what I said ever at any time in any way in any post at any point.

A chainsaw defense is by definition attacking someone because they attacked your scumbuddy. That doesn't sound very subtle or indirect. This isn't an argument over semantics if that's the freaking definition of the term you're misusing!

The chainsaw defense by definition does not involve an explicit defense. It involves an attack on someone voting the buddy. Thus it can in no way be direct.

At no point did I say that HS was calling ABR a lurker. I was voting him based on his hypocrisy, which is readily apparent in my very post. You saying otherwise is a blatant misrep.

He is not being a hypocrite, ergo your vote based on his hypocrisy is bad. In order for your original vote to make sense, HS would have to consider ABR merely a lurker about whom no substantial information exists. HS clearly did not feel that way, so his vote on ABR was not a vote on a lurker qua lurker, which he opposed. Consequently he is not a hypocrite.

So...Post Hoc.

Good; you know Latin. You seem to be engaging in some paralepsis with the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, but surely you know that it does not apply to my statement in any way.

Well you're not exactly looking for pre-wagon associatives either.

The difference is that I did not attack you for not looking at pre-wagon associatives. I presented an analysis I thought useful based on data I found salient. If you find other data noteworthy as well, go right ahead and post them. But if you choose to do nothing instead, you have absolutely no right to tell others that their arguments are bad or, even worse, scummy for not considering every possible factor. This is a collaborative effort; I tore a chunk off and made it digestible for everyone. Maybe you should try it, too.

The most I've done is a quick look over the VCs. Other than that, I doubt that we'll be able to find any reliable associative tells. But congrats on changing the subject.

Actually, I think that yesterday's wagons were goldmines for associative tells. And your basis for suspecting me is, according to you, partially based on my reactions to the ABR wagon yesterday, so...


VOTE: Bulba

[Aegor]

I will 1-1 Bulba, just in case anyone is wondering how many eggs I am putting in this basket.

[Aegor]

He'll squirm easier.

Save yourself the time.

[Aegor]

So, why is Chevre not dead yet?

Is anyone townreading Chevre? On what basis? Why oppose a vote on Chevre?

[Aegor]

kab,

Please contribute. Please post your top three scumreads

with justification

.

[Aegor]

Then explain it to me, because all I see is you attacking him for wanting to policy lynch Kabooom yet no one else, when no one but Kabooom and ABR were viable.

This statement justifies my attack.

It's only a chainsaw defense if the reason for attacking you is that you're attacking their buddy.

Not true, by definition. You are more than welcome to consult the wiki in order to correct your error.

It's a strong defense of their buddy, much like a WK is a strong defense of a town player. Thus, it is a direct attack, and thus, it is in no way subtle. Don't argue definitions with me when I've actually caught scum off this.

You may have caught scum, but your definition of Chainsaw Defense is whack. Attacking an attacker is a sufficient condition for a Chainsaw Defense.

HS said that voting lurkers was scummy. He then proceeds to vote a lurker slot. How is that not hypocrisy?

HS said voting lurkers because they are lurkers was scummy, and then voted someone on whom he had a scumread and whom he HAD NEVER CALLED LURKER. Thus there is no hypocrisy at all.

You're saying that my finding the quick buildup of the ABR wagon d2 unusual is scummy or of no consequence based on data that I did not have at the time. You are using information we know now and imposing it on a place and time where that information was not available to invalidate my thought process then. How is that not Post Hoc?

Because

post hoc

is a fallacy of equating temporal succession with cause-effect. That does not characterize either of our arguments in this case.

Point out where I've done this. All I've done so far is inquire into your reasoning for RBD-scum.

Which you asked after my explanation had already been provided more than once. An ISO my my posts will confirm this.

I've actually said that your vote yesterday is the only thing making me unsure on you being scum.

So back off or just vote me and push for my lynch.

So you're pitching a hissy fit, because I'm asking you to explain your logic?

After it was already explained. In detail. Clearly. In several posts.

Because he's town.

Are you admitting that you know he is town? Or would you like to rephrase that in a way that properly conveys your uncertainty?

[Aegor]

@Mod: Could we just modkill Discode please?

[Aegor]

On who? RBD or me? Because I don't think it does in either case.

RBD, obviously.

I have consulted the wiki. In fact, that's where I came across the term. Heck, during my first 6 months on the site, I practically lived on the wiki. I know what the term means and how it's used. Plus, the very image of chainsaw does not equate to a subtle and indirect attack. If you're chainsawing somebody, you're doing it on purpose.

Intentionality has no bearing on subtlety or directness.

Obviously it's not a good explanation if I have to keep asking about it.

Non sequitur. The problem lies with your inability or unwillingness to read it.

I am done with this conversation, Bulb (not angry or anything). I do not think it will yield anything interesting henceforth.

I am still down with lynching out of {Chevre, RBD, kab}, and {Bulb} as a compromise. I am also completely open to new cases on other players.

~Tags fixed.

[Aegor]

Mod, would appreciate tag fixes in prior post.

Done.

[Aegor]

VOTE: Aegor

[Aegor]

UNVOTE:

[Aegor]

Unvote

Vote Aegor

vote:aegor

town-sotty (she was lead attacker in that ABR weagon.)

*sigh* please don't let this be D1 all over again and have the wagon suddenly dissapear... Please.

VOTE: AEGOR

L-1.

These are all super-shitty votes. Kab's in particular is unimaginably awful. The fact that a wagon happened in one page on me while it took over two weeks to get one locked down on ABR is telling.

do you have anything to say?? Aegor??

Go fuck yourself.

I will be following this thread but will not be posting much for the rest of today.

[Aegor]

today = game day BTW

[Aegor]

Okay, so Aegor obviously doesn't give a shit about a wagon forming in one page if it's not on him(as told by the ABR wagon, which floated back and forth but gained a ton of steam over one page).

"Floated back and forth" being the operative words.

he just sat around doing about as much fence sitting as possible

Not true. I explicitly stated whom I would be willing to lynch. That by definition makes it impossible for me to have sat on any fence.

and then has a scum read on someone for not fence sitting.

I did no such thing.

I could say half the people here were scum for opposing the ABR wagon at any given time, and RBD wanted kab as a better lynch. I would like to lynch this please

And scum are definitely among them, and RBD is scum for being inconsistent in treatment toward ABR in a clear attempt to defend him. You speak as if you somehow know all of those players are town. Until they have flipped, how can you treat as ridiculous the suggestion that opposition to the ABR wagon was scum-motviated?

And your case on me is laughable and you are scummy.


{RBD, HS, kab, Bulb} contains scum, probably 2. inHim also likely scum.

[Aegor]

^Please explain how I am a far better lynch than this?

[Aegor]

VOTE: kaboooooom

[Aegor]

You have a scum read on

RBD for being adamant about wanting to lynch kab before ABR. Keyword is before, there

. You were jumping around, but RBD wasn't.

I do not remember RBD actually signing off or advocating an ABR lynch at all, hence my previous comments.

[Aegor]

Approving of a lynch on a theoretical level is a great way to cover unwillingness to accept it in practice. His push on kab was disproportionate if he was really ok with an ABR lynch. After saying that early on, he never reviewed the ABR lynch or mentioned it at all. Which is my point.

[Aegor]

My reads remain the same.

[Aegor]

@Aegor
Surely you know that all 6 of the people you're scumreading can't be scum, we'd have lost already.

Surely I do. But since this is not lylo and I am the humility to admit that my reads are not infallible, I have no problem presenting more candidates for scum than there are scum.

I don't understand why you moved your vote back to kaboom.

Acceptable lynch and there were votes on him.

I think it's strange that you're denying pushing kaboom's wagon yesterday against ABR, when you clearly did (1832).

I denied no such thing. I pushed both wagons.

You also haven't really said anything about why kaboom is a bigger lynch priority than Bulba or RBD or Chevre or any of your other scumreads.

Probably because I do not think he is a bigger lynch priority than those players.

For the record, I want Chevre dead the most. Emogirl's case is both authentic and well-formed. I do not understand the resistance to it. RBD dying would make me very happy indeed. Bulba, inHim, and kab are in the next tier.

[Aegor]

My preview post addition got a little lost there, so;

@Aegor - what's your take on Rainbow?

Post 1951. Why does no one ever seem to read my cases (except Thesp)? Not only in this game, for that matter.

[Aegor]

V/LA until the end of the weekend

[Aegor]

I do not think that Thor is a particularly good lynch for today. The associative info will be minimal (he has basically voted me/ABR all game).

Chevre seems to be on the scummy side of most players' lists. Lynching Chevre also has the benefit of compelling emogirl to do something other than call for Chevre's lynch. I happen to have a strong townread on emogirl, so this possibility is appealing to me.

Kab would also be a great lynch because he is both scummy and useless.