Veiled Committee Mafia: List Mods Edition [game over]

[Aureal]

[Aureal]

OMG GUYS I DID IT!!!! FINALLY

I GOT A RED PM

I GOT A RED PM

I..

uh...

...

......

nevermind

[Aureal]

I want to remind everyone the last time I played forum mafia (I want to say 2004? early 2005?) I think only Dragon was on the site and one or more of you might not even have been born so please cut me some slack when I eventually lose the game for the town. I am effectively a newbie and since I just shuttered the newbie queue and fired the newbie mod, I really am rudderless right now.

Anyway, I kind of want to vote Save the Dragons, I really want to be able to say "I haven't played since before any living player joined". Can we make that happen?

... I feel like there cannot possibly be any negative consequences to me from this plan. I approve.

[Aureal]

Ranger and Aureal are dying by fire this game

VOTE: Alisae

[Aureal]

Maybe I need to practice being evil too. Hmmm...

[Aureal]

Alisae can I get a tl;dr about your red PM?

[Aureal]

because anix is obvious scum lol

it's the red name isn't it

well what if one of the designers made their town PM's red and their mafia PM's blue

what then

Is your PM blue?

[Aureal]

cook is town

Is she really though?

[Aureal]

yeah probably

What about Alisae then?

[Aureal]

i think alisae is town

Why?

[Aureal]

Show of hands: who

doesn't

have a red PM, besides Ranger and Cook?

[Aureal]

Show of hands: who

doesn't

have a red PM, besides Ranger and Cook?

Well, I give up.

Either I've found like, the most easily outted scum team ever, or something weird is going on with role PMs.

Back to plotting evil, I guess.

[Aureal]

4. I don't eat enough spicy food to know because I only eat one meal a day so I only get 1/3 less chances to eat than most people

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[Aureal]

good morning town

Good morning to you also!

I responded to your prompt because I am town!

[Aureal]

how is anix obvtown either

First, we ignore literally every mechpost, because mechposts have nothing to do with alignment, but rather mechanical intelligence, and mechanical intelligence is not AI. Second, we realize that AniX comes from a time when the Earth had yet to cool and the atmosphere was still mostly sulfur, and so their posting also needs to be viewed through that lens where post restrictions and mechsolves are common place and that's just how town is supposed to approach the game. Third, we ask ourselves "Does scum really fake a readslist with two players who haven't posted surrounding a player who has if they're tryharding". Fourth we realize that if we look tryhard up in the dictionary there's a picture of AniX staring at a picture of Taylor Swift.

Ani is crazy performative here, but that's more because it's Ani than any actually alignment indicative thing and Koba pushing the slot as surface level is actually skeevy as fuck.

This is true, post restrictions were more commonplace in 2005. There was some crazy ones in games I played back then (and faked ones) but I've only seen one in my games this year and it was optional to activate a night ability.

[Aureal]

Hey if we're considering mass claiming, how about mass claiming the color of our role PM?

[Aureal]

Hey if we're considering mass claiming, how about mass claiming the color of our role PM?

I do not think it's ethical to openly talk about mod communication.

Ethical?

Ethical??

How in blazes do ethics apply to talking about a color?

i might have misread but in the last game it seemed like the NRG was encouraged to submit role PMs with various formatting to throw off metagaming?

That may well be the case here from what I've seen. That doesn't mean there can't be any insight to be gained from the subject nonetheless.

[Aureal]

I feel like one of them should be me, like the upper one, given his previous post.

[Aureal]

off the top of my head, here’s people i think have been making an impact and in what order

Koba
AniX
Alisae
Fenrir
DragonEater
Bingle
Ranger
Theta
CamelCasedSnivy
Ircher
KKFC

if i am missing your name you haven’t posted recently or i straight up forgot you existed

I see how it is....

you bring up a point

where IS everyone else

Busy wearing a cool hat.

Right?!?!

[Aureal]

Holy fuck I finally get CCS’s username

There's something to get about it?

[Aureal]

yes but repeated broken promises bad

also its wednesday ,not thursday

i mean their first post said "i'll try to" and their second post was an hour and a half ago which can easily be filled w work tasks even on a light day

i think ur being a lil unreasonable. ive done the same thing RN is doing as town before and for longer stretches than 24 hours

I agree with this in principle. But I'm more wary of Nurse specifically, because he was in that Strange Dreams game too for a while, and a lot of his posts were basically like this. It turned out to be a scum slot.

[Aureal]

can someone explain pretty please

i dunno i feel like drew should be more present

Why do you think that?

[Aureal]

also small little detail: i feel that the scum team received PMs that had different colors, as the fact that they are guaranteed to be formed of a team with a different designer for each role, which is what may have prompted the cook discussion about role PM colors. this is just theory crafting but how I explain that whole thing in a scum!cook world.

What happened to it being unethical to talk about PM colors?

Also what cook discussion?

[Aureal]

if anix mafia we got a towncore of StD, you, me, cook, and dragoneater ez game

you should be adding aureal, katy, and probably skygazer to that townbloc

I agree about Katy and Sky, but what townie contribution has Aureal done this game?

I guess Alisae isn't going to answer you so I'll go ahead and ask why you don't think what I've done has been townie. I think for once it actually has been pretty townie.

[Aureal]

You guys really don't understand why I voted Alisae?

[Aureal]

Really Cook, you too? You're the one who gave Alisae the prompt she needed in order to get what I was saying about the red PMs. You got the joke, you don't find it at all weird that Alisae didn't? Despite supposedly also having a red PM?

Like, how tf does a TOWNIE with a red PM not remember that fact because it should've triggered some confusion. A Mafia, on the other hand, wouldn't see anything strange and probably wouldn't even register that town can get red PMs until someone points it out.

Maybe Alisae just gets a lot of weird PMs and it didn't register. But it's pretty suspicious.

[Aureal]

Exactly

[Aureal]

I had the mindset that everyone had a red PM. Alisae clearly didn't have that mindset until Cook's post.

[Aureal]

Like, how tf does a TOWNIE with a red PM not remember that fact because it should've triggered some confusion. A Mafia, on the other hand, wouldn't see anything strange and probably wouldn't even register that town can get red PMs until someone points it out.

The way I read it, she might have mixed up the red ooc modtext in this thread and the red PMs. At least, that's what I did because at first I thought I had red PMs too.

What the heck does this mean?

wait what about alisae's response makes you think they are scum and not that they didn't understand you were talking about PM color (which is something we definitely shouldn't be concerned about because the sample PM is red so scum know that PMs are red)

Did you even read what Alisae posted in response to me, it clearly comes from a mindset of red PM=Mafia.

[Aureal]

im gonna avoid talking about role pms just in case of rules

I'm finding it really sus how a bunch of people are just refusing to talk about the color of their PM on principle like this. This talk been happening since like page two, people! Neither the mod nor our SITE ADMINISTRATOR have said a peep to indicate any issue with describing a color that the mod may or may not have used. Describing the color of a PM is common talk, do you want me to go link someone using 'red PM' as slang for Mafia or something?!

[Aureal]

I like aureal but I think she can’t read me and idrc about her arguments for the push if anything it works in my favor

I haven't even expressed a read of you. I've pointed out a potential scum slip. That's not a read of your play.

I feel much better about my ability to read you than you do, which is why I haven't actually pressed the slip that much. I'm willing to watch what you do and read you from that. You're just starting in a hole. Whether you dig yourself in more or climb out, we'll see.

[Aureal]

I haven't even expressed a read of you. I've pointed out a potential scum slip. That's not a read of your play.

:thorface: A read is an alignment likelihood. If you think Ali scumslipped, e is more likely to be scum and that's a scumread. Your post here is pedantic in like the least helpful of ways, sidestepping around anything useful.

It's a direct response to Alisae discrediting my ability to read her play. Seeing a scumslip is not a read on her play. Whereas saying that Alisae responding by discrediting my ability to read her makes her more likely scum is a read on her play.

[Aureal]

I'm fine with mass claiming. Why the heck not. It'll be less funny, but it ought to let us organize the best way to use my role.

[Aureal]

Wow, it's sure looking like I've got the most awesome role in the game by far.

Is JasonWazza really still a player in this game. It'd be really weird if they somehow got a role that lets them just not ever post or do anything right at the time they apparently quit the site.

[Aureal]

idk about bingles claim ngl

You don't know what about it? You think it's fake?

[Aureal]

Dragoneater, is there something in particular you're holding out for before claiming?

[Aureal]

I don't understand how Koba flipping as a random scum role is an investigative unless the person with the role trueclaimed it. We aren't even going to know if the role is really his or not unless someone else flips as the same role are we?

[Aureal]

Well I guess it could tell us 'ok looks like we're dealing with a Godfather Janitor' or whatever, but without your role which can apparently confirm Koba was actually town it doesn't even do that.

BTW your power doesn't count as a night action even if you use it at night, right? It wouldn't be blocked if you were unable to use a night action?

[Aureal]

Hey Drew

What happens with your role if more than one townie dies at the same time?

[Aureal]

HI YOU TWO WE'RE MASSCLAIMING

PLEASE GIVE US YOUR CLAIMS, EVERYONE IS WAITING

[Aureal]

Yeah, I'm waiting for the rest of you guys because my role is ridiculously broken and confirmable and is going to have all sorts of interactions with your silly role things and we're going to have so much fun with it.

Okay, xyzzy might not have so much fun.

[Aureal]

Is this question for Ranger related to your yet-unknown roleclaim?

[Aureal]

I just saw that I’m voting dragoneater and don’t at all remember why.

UNVOTE:

PC, claim?
Aureal, claim?

You're not concerned with Dragoneater totally blowing off claiming while also trying to say he's not waiting for anything? Because I darn well have been waiting for it, so if he's actually just outright refusing to participate in the mass claim he bloody well needs to say so.

[Aureal]

I'm not concerned with de claiming bc he's newer and also transparently towny
The deflection is scummy af

I quite disagree with that assessment of Dragoneater. His overall manner is rather mixed and I've taken note of a couple things that stuck out as rather scummy in addition to this whole dragging out claiming to hound Ranger instead thing.

I don't really give a crap what you think about my 'deflection'. I've already claimed like half of it to AniX in the neighborhood I opened earlier through that interaction in the thread. Guess nobody noticed that they slipped and said my role was related to MLM even though I just gave them a generic sales pitch about food.

It's hilarious(ly infuriating) how DE complained about wanting a neighborhood with Ranger because of whatever he's going on about. Guess what, we can give it to him with my role! I sell Amway, so everyone who accepts my offer to join Amway once I open a neighborhood with them gets a copy of all my abilities, which are obviously based on the amount of people in the chain of my recruits.

I haven't bothered doing a lot of spec on exactly what to do since I know the mechheads are gonna twink, but it clearly seems Bingle's lack of ability to modify his role is confirmable through use of this. Someone just needs to get him to join Amway then he uses a recruitment phrase on another nonAmway person, and if no neighborhood forms that should confirm it to the would be recruit. And the person who 'recruited' Bingle probably doesn't get credit for him either, though that's maybe kinda grey.

Anyone who accepts the Amway abilities gets the whole set, so everyone except Bingle can a have a neighborhood with whomever they want if they take it (and he should still be neighborizeable so he isn't totally left out), now that this is in the open so people darn well know what's up when someone gives them a sales pitch they need to react to for it. They'll get the Amway night actions instead of whatever their actions were, but it seems we have little in the way of useful night actions anyway. (Hence my asking Theta whether that would be a night action)

So, if you all got to pick, who would you want or not want to become a vig?

(There's a roleblock and more neighborhood action too but that's not as exciting)

[Aureal]

What are you at risk of forgetting? I'm eagerly awaiting your ideas on how to use this. If you have questions feel free to ask.

[Aureal]

Yeah, I'm waiting for the rest of you guys because my role is ridiculously broken and confirmable and is going to have all sorts of interactions with your silly role things and we're going to have so much fun with it.

Okay, xyzzy might not have so much fun.

watch aureal be an ability stealing role or some random shit

Yeah there's always the possibility you can think that I send around a role that's not my own. But if you're seriously concerned about something like this, if we're going to pass my role around like candy like would be the most hilarious use, then there will be plenty of people who can stop me with the roleblocks and vigs that I give out. Although I guess I could also be immune to those as the founder.

[Aureal]

days have no deadlines
but we have committed to everyone claiming before we move on

move on to where? If we are committed to claiming then we should lim in between claims. where would we possibly move on to?

What

Do you even understand what a mass claim is

[Aureal]

I find it really disappointing that our mechheads' response to my ridiculously powerful role is just "wow, scummy". No attempts to think through how to use it. I thought the ability to give a bunch of people neighborhoods and vigilante powers seemed pretty obviously something that would come from town, unless you think it's some sort of cult. We could know exactly what abilities basically everyone in the game has available at night, reducing the possibilities of who's resposible if there's say, a suspicious roleblock. Or, y'know, we could literally

end this game on Day 2

with proper use of the role and good reads.

[Aureal]

if koba was scum and their ability was to flip as a random townie's role that would be hilarious

i mean if anything the claim is to obscure my own flip and pretend i am a town when flipped

but like in future games for sure u cant trust this kind of roleclaim now that its an idea for setups like these lmao

What in blazes are you even trying to say here? Pretend you're town? This sounds like a scumclaim.

[Aureal]

this is unreviewed role madness u dont get cleared for role esp since this isnt even like grand idea mafia where theres a list of roles

YEAH NO SHIT IT'S UNREVIEWED

THIS ROLE IS OBVIOUSLY COMPLETELY UNBALANCED ESPECIALLY IN A DAY ONE MASSCLAIM

[Aureal]

I still dont understand the role lmao

I give INCREDIBLE COSMIC POWERS to anyone who wants them and can get other people who don't already have them to accept the INCREDIBLE COSMIC POWERS.

[Aureal]

it is a partial vanillaizer+neighborizer but it gives you abilities based on how many times you use the ability
plus also it gives people hit with the ability a copy of the ability
at least if i understand correctly

I don't think it really is vanillaizer, you should still have your role and any passive attributes or day actions. You just can't use its night actions, unless you get out of Amway, which is a night action that'll cost you your vote the next day (so it'll be pretty obvious if someone does it).

Like, do you guys not understand what multi-level marketing is? If I recruit Theta right now, Theta can go recruit Koba, who can recruit DE, who can recruit Ranger, etc. etc. etc. all the way through the playerlist. All of you will be in my chain of recruits which will unlock new abilities for me at the appropriate numbers. Everyone after Theta will be in her chain, and she'll get those abilities as well after just one more recruit than me, since she's my recruit so I have one more. Koba will get those abilities with two more recruits in the chain than I have. And so on.

It can do two neighborhoods a day, so we have basically infinite options here- we can have people split their chains if we want to dilute the access to power rather than one long unbroken one.

[Aureal]

aureal trying to push they are town for role is like one of those classic role madness scumclaims lol. not that im ever gonna use that as a sole reason but the more they push it the more i just wanna tunnel harder

So you try to push that I'm scum for my role and then call it a scumclaim when I think otherwise. Wow. Okay. I was starting to think maybe you weren't actually scum, but you're really trying to make the case that your scumflip will be a real scumflip and not this 'death miller' thing, aren't you?

[Aureal]

i mean you did not mention a way to regain the abilities so i assumed vanillaizer

It just says people get a copy of all my abilities, so I assume everything in the original role still exists, you're just blocked from using other night actions while in Amway. I assume people would still flip as their original role, maybe with the Amway abilities added on? I guess I could ask the mod, if people want to know.

[Aureal]

i would run into the same issue of uh

needing to get hit with rangers ability in order to recruit anyone other then scum though

however
that just turns me into a cop

Ooooh, you think the Desperate would apply to powers given to you, not just the ability you already have?

This is hurting my head to think about, lol. The neighborhood is automatically created on anyone when you do the appropriate interactions with them so long as they're not already an Amway consultant (though xyzzy did say it'd be a good idea to send a PM to point out the interaction so they don't miss it) so a failure of the neighborhood to form after you're sure the mod knows would indicate that it's been blocked somehow. And so far as I can tell that wouldn't even be blocked on Bingle, he just wouldn't be able to accept the actual abilities. So I guess it could be an investigation if it works like that, though it feels like it shouldn't.

[Aureal]

i would run into the same issue of uh

needing to get hit with rangers ability in order to recruit anyone other then scum though

however
that just turns me into a cop

Ooooh, you think the Desperate would apply to powers given to you, not just the ability you already have?

This is hurting my head to think about, lol. The neighborhood is automatically created on anyone when you do the appropriate interactions with them so long as they're not already an Amway consultant (though xyzzy did say it'd be a good idea to send a PM to point out the interaction so they don't miss it) so a failure of the neighborhood to form after you're sure the mod knows would indicate that it's been blocked somehow. And so far as I can tell that wouldn't even be blocked on Bingle, he just wouldn't be able to accept the actual abilities. So I guess it could be an investigation if it works like that, though it feels like it shouldn't.

yeah
desperate is not tied specifically to my original ability so it would apply to any inventions or new abilities given to me as well
we would probably want ranger to hit me with their ability so i can start getting a town recruit chain of my own
then future usages would have desperate so i can use it as a cop
then once enough power for vig
well

desperate vig is a little bit powerful

I'd be most concerned that you're going to get killed before being able to do this, with this spread across multiple days. Ranger's thing would remove your modifier for one day or something? I guess you'd need to make sure it's surpressing the Desperate during the day tomorrow and not just at night (I haven't gone back to read exactly what she said about it). So you'd only be able to open a neighborhood to recruit scum today, and they probably wouldn't comply and take the abilities to pass it along to town after being caught out by a failed neighborhood, lol. (I thought of something else of possible concern but shouldn't say it here, remind me about it privately if we end up going this route). So you'd need to hit town with it tomorrow to get a proper chain, yeah. The vig is available at a chain of 10 recruits fyi (dead people still count) so you'd definitely need town to cooperate with you then.

Although I guess if you get killed, Drew gets your role if his claim is true (and I'm not sure it is). So there would still be one day's worth of potential Desperate neighborizing attempts from him, but that wouldn't even be able to prove his backup claim.

I think I need to eat dinner and get my head out of the weeds now. x_x

[Aureal]

oddly enough i think aureal might actually fit into that grouping given the interaction with bingle

Yeah, that's what I've been thinking, that Bingle is probably same grouping of roles as mine. How many people are going to make a "can't receive new abilities" role without including any roles that can give new abilities?

[Aureal]

For now, aureal has NOT full claimed.

Well excuse me for having a complicated long-ass role and not immediately talking about every tiny detail regardless of interest! I said to ask if you had any questions and instead I get shit. I don't even remember all the details and there's things I forget until I look back at the PM again.

We still need number of followers to trigger every individual role,

1 to send a message
3 to neighborhood
6 to roleblock and open a neighborhood and autorecruit (same target)
10 to vig and recruit

Is it really so hard to ASK about what you wanna know instead of getting accusatory?

whether role chains are recursive,

What?

whether aureal gets to know who has access to each individual’s list of powers.

IT'S A FUCKING PUBLIC ACTION

Do you think I and anyone else who's seen the text needed to open a neighborhood is going to just NOT NOTICE when someone starts spouting off about securing their family's future in the game thread?!? And now that it's all out it's going to be mostly obvious to everyone else too! We'll know the number of recruits we have (I assume xyzzy will say something at night about it, they said they're keeping track). It's not entirely a sure thing that someone accepts the offer once a neighborhood is formed but it's easy to tell when they do the neighborhood, and anyone in the chain above will have their recruit total increase in case of a successful recruit so it shouldn't be that freaking hard to figure!

The role itself has the very distinct characteristic of not benefiting at all from being last claimed, yet aureal was very concerned with going early because claiming after everyone would break the game. In the strongest case, aureal has a role that functionally turns this game into everyone is a vig.

Not EVERYONE, they can't all have 10 recruits. It'd be up to 7 including me because there's 17 people. Gosh, that math was hard.

And are you trying to say this role cannot break the game and also that there can be a whole bunch of vigs in the same breath??! You don't think having a bunch of vigs breaks the game??

Aureal slipped on part of her role that’s being withheld when talking about me. She mentioned that her role could confirm my role, but prima fasci it does not do that. If I were lying about my role and aureal’s was as claimed, the only thing I’d have to do to not be caught would be not use any visible powers. That tells me there is a significant portion of aureal’s claim that isn’t being said. Based on my role that could be an alignment change mechanic (recruit five people, join scumteam) or a compulsive modifier.

I ALREADY FREAKING EXPLAINED HOW TO CONFIRM YOU WITH IT

IF YOU DON'T THINK THAT WORKS THEN EXPLAIN WHY

SAYING "OH I CAN JUST REFUSE TO CONFIRM MY ROLE" IS NOT AN ACCEPTABLE EXPLANATION BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY IF WE WANT YOU TO CONFIRM IT AND YOU REFUSE YOU GET HELD ACCOUNTABLE

Even then, Aureal doesn’t show any paranoia about scum getting access to vig shots. Vig shots, which I very well believe have utility only in situations where they are known or reasonably certain to be coming from town.

You're really intent on coming up with any sort of way to discredit me and get rid of this power rather than evaluate its potential use, aren't you?? Criticizing perceived attitude rather than the role is a bad look. It's like you didn't even read my attitude, either, since you're wrong.

Tl;dr, this is probably a Sakura Hana from RC’s UPick type deal where the role is all about scum convincing town to trust them and then profiting.

AniX should accept the power up and claim the information they get, but no one else should accept a power up from either player aorn.

Insert handwaved paranoia because of some other game with no explanation of it or how that could even be relevant in this situation here

Bud, you can fucking flip me after getting these abilities out there, with my own powers that I could give people no less, to make sure I don't have some secret role. But instead you're suggesting that AniX should be barred from using their own abilities without gaining anything from mine and then undoubtedly gets killed before being able to start making use of the Amway powers. Obviously someone without night actions is going to be the ideal place to start up with this, not someone who's going to miss out on stuff.

I expected a lot more from you guys. There's no attempt to evaluate the risks and benefits of these abilities. There is only the desire to squelch them. It's hard to see that not coming from scum.

[Aureal]

We could try to ping Dragoneater70 some more to get him to claim.

[Aureal]

Not so sure he's town anymore, are we?

VOTE: DragonEater70

[Aureal]

Okay, I am trying to not be tilted by what still seems to be pretty bad faith responses. I wrote my claim post up on my phone, while having my lunch break. Obviously it's not going to be the most organized and well-constructed explanation in those circumstances. I was focusing on getting it out there with what I felt was the most important stuff, so that people could start workshopping what to do with it. I expected people to listen to me when I suggested thinking about who would be good to give this power to- this is what I expected people to do, not launch a major discrediting campaign against me. So here I am now, having waited all day to respond to anything else so that I could sit down and do it in a more structured manner.

If Player A recruits Player B, can Player B recruit Player A. If Player A recruits Player B and Player C, can Player C recruit Player B. If Player A recruits Player B who recruits Player C, can Player C recruit Player A? If a loop of recruits A > B > C > A is possible, does that result in infinite recruits tracking for all of those players or 3 for each of those players?

Why are you confused about this? On what planet does a multi-level marketing scheme work like this? I asked before if you even knew that that was, and from you referencing ponzi schemes in 1869 I have to think that you do. So why are you trying to confuse the issue by acting like you could possibly think this makes sense?

You can't recruit people who have already been recruited

, it wouldn't be a freaking pyramid if you could, now would it? Here is stuff from that wiki page for those who don't want to bother following the link:


"In the organizational hierarchy of MLM companies, recruited participants (as well as those whom the recruit recruits) are referred to as one's downline distributors"

Do you get notified when a player is recruited or when a player accepts recruitment?

I'm not sure seeing as none has happened yet but probably not? Seeing as there are no other Amway people in the game though, it's all coming from me and not going to be hard for me to spot recruited people setting up recruitment neighborhoods. As I have repeatedly said.

If you do, are you told who recruited that player?

Again, really hard to hide who's recruiting who when you're doing it publicly. There could be some room to muddy the visibility of exact chains seeing as multiple people could set up neighborhoods with the same person, but the people involved at the least should be able to figure who gets the recruit since they will know how many they have (at some point anyway, I've PMed xyzzy asking for more specifics on that).

How is recruitment performed (via PM to xyzzy, via specific text in thread, via specific text in neighborhood?)

I already pretty much explained this right from the get-go while explaining how to confirm you: "Someone just needs to get him to join Amway then he uses a recruitment phrase on another nonAmway person, and if no neighborhood forms that should confirm it to the would be recruit." It didn't

completely

describe the process since that's not what I was focused on or expected anyone to else to be focused on at the moment, but I think it's enough that you shouldn't be acting like a chicken with its head cut off having no idea what I'm talking about. You can see for yourself, post 138 is

very obviously

where I activated on AniX.

Specifically, the process is:
1) quote someone to target them
2) write a recruitment phrase in the post
3) if they acknowledge you, BOOM: neighborhood'd

Do you have access to further neighborhoods created by your recruits, either publicly or privately?

Why would I?

Can the recruit via Vig be refused? Can the recruit via RB be refused?

...can you refuse to be roleblocked or vigged? Like, what????? Is this supposed to be a serious question?!?

[Aureal]

Is it hard to put the relevant information from the claim in the claim instead of, you know, not massclaiming?

Yes it bloody well is.

I have not ever said the role isn't strong, and that's a fucking glorious misrep that entirely evades why everything you're doing is scummy as shit. But lets look at this. I agree that 17-10 is seven, but you had not even hinted at those numbers prior to this post, calling me out, for not doing that math.

You're a liar, I clearly stated it was 10 recruits in 1638.

Additionally, you've not at all confirmed that a recruit can only be a recruit for one person (you do imply it for the first time here, in the post where you're criticizing me for not doing math with an equation I don't have and variables you haven't offered).

This is just you pulling nonsensical crap out of your ass trying to find something to make me sound bad with. "But the jailkeeper didn't explain whether or not the person they jailed could also jail them in return, OMG they didn't fullclaim SO SCUMMY!!!"

More importantly, your justification for claiming last was that you had a role that was stronger if people didn't know what it was to play around it. How the fuck would anyone change their claim to play around what you claimed.

Well for starters, if you're not actually the role you claimed you are,

you

wouldn't have claimed to be that when mine can confirm or refute that you are unmodifiable?!? You sound awfully mad, did my claim screw yours like that??

You could have claimed first, and your role would have exactly the same implications. Fuck, you claiming in the first post D1 would change literally nothing about your role. But you specifically delayed your claim so people couldn't play around having the ability to maybe mulligan their role into a stronger one if they trust you and can convince other people to trust them.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here. Are you suggesting that I should've started the game off by explaining my role to everyone??

Hey, everyone, I just sent a PM to xyzzy dayvigging Aureal, so I'm obviously not a dayvig. It's confirmed that I can't do that, because I tried and xyzzy hasn't flipped Aureal. Also, I can't make the nightkill because I sent a PM trying to NK Koba. And I can't read the scum PT, so obviously I can't be scum. Isn't mafia easy?

Yes, private PMs are exactly the same thing as a game thread, definitely.

Even then, Aureal doesn’t show any paranoia about scum getting access to vig shots. Vig shots, which I very well believe have utility only in situations where they are known or reasonably certain to be coming from town.

You're really intent on coming up with any sort of way to discredit me and get rid of this power rather than evaluate its potential use, aren't you??

Criticizing perceived attitude rather than the role is a bad look.

It's like you didn't even read my attitude, either, since you're wrong.

Are you fucking kidding me? Are you seriously arguing that I shouldn't attempt to read you on how you play instead of what role you randed? Have you ever played a game of mafia?

If you're reading 'how I play' instead of my role then why are you not reading how I'm playing? And why are you trying to insist that I'm scum because of my role???

I literally asked people for input on who they thought would be trustworthy enough to be a vig, or not, in my first post about this. What better way do you have of determining who best to empower other than by

asking people and trying to get a reasonable consensus

?!

Yeah, in hindsight, AniX's abilities are actually worth something and we should keep those. We should just lim the shit out of your ass as is.

So you admit that you didn't even bother thinking about what to do. You just want all this to go away.

As far as RC's Anything UPick is concerned, I wasn't the first one to bring it up, Koba was and Irch responded to that. And it was a pretty prevalent game a while back, so it's not a stretch to think literally any of the listmods read it. (In fact, it's likely they all did since it was up for a scummy and I think they were all active at the time). Both of us provided enough information for anyone to be able to find the game fairly easily, and if they couldn't, it would have been a simple thing to ask for this link: viewtopic.php?t=88188

Just like it would've been a simple thing to ask me, or read what I've said, rather than just go "LOL SCUMCLAIM"?? You still aren't bothering to explain why you think I could possibly be any threat after I'm dead, you're making us have to go read some other game and try to figure out what the hell you're talking about. I just spent like five minutes reading that trying to figure it out and still can't. As far as I can tell, this Sakura player was STILL ALIVE at the end of the game to use some auto-win power?? And you're trying to compare it to this, where I absolutely am not going to survive to endgame?

[Aureal]

You're a liar, I clearly stated it was 10 recruits in 1653.

Fixed wrong post number in previous post, sorry. Always gotta double-check those post number links :/

[Aureal]

tbh aureal's role sounds like the type of power loaded role with townie looking aspects that an average theme mod would design

power loaded scum role***
i am bad

I think the misdirection is in the flavor. It's a frigging pyramid scheme. If there's a rolecop who targets me and sees "Amway consultant" they're probably gonna go "ooooooo that sounds bad" aren't they? That's why I made those posts early on about working on being evil, I was playing into the flavor because MLM is evil.

[Aureal]

what does recruiting past 10 get you? If recruiting past 10 doesn't get you anything, why would the vig shot force recruit? The question wasn't really to ask whether someone could refuse to be recruited in those circumstances, but to give Aureal a chance to correct herself on the vig shot recruiting the target to the cult when there is nominally no reason for it to do that without her outright lying about what the last tier of powers are.

VOTE: Aureal

Why the hell should it have to get me something other than a larger chain? Having more than needed for your powers is redundancy that may well be needed if someone leaves and breaks your chain. Which is incidentally another reason why setting up the order matters so much- having a single long chain makes it much more vulnerable to someone quitting and disrupting it all.

[Aureal]

I think all the aspects of Aureal's role that are claimed are true, so it would be slight townpoints to you for being the first target. Scum doesn't frequently publicly target buddies with beneficial abilities.

It's not a locktown case on you, and is significantly weaker than "Willingly isn't a vig tonight" but yeah, I don't think Aurealscum implies you scum at all.

Ya my thought is they are saying 1 thing, doing the opposite.
Claim they wanna use their role without disruption by targeting roles that dont have NAs but trying to use it as a vanillizer in practice by targeting Anix over claimed millers.

What the hell would be the benefit of targeting the miller claim? I don't see that a miller is any more or less likely to have night actions than any other random player. And FWIW, I hadn't yet even absorbed the fact that being recruited to Amway would block other night actions when I targeted AniX, seeing as that meant nothing to me who has nothing BUT Amway night actions. I quickly realized it when I looked back at the role in describing it to AniX, and cautioned them that if they had cool night actions they might not want to take the offer.

[Aureal]

Honestly.
She didn't full claim. Like I wasn't able to gather from her claim whether she can recruit multiple people, or if she can only recruit one person who recruits another etc.

It's both!

I also wasn't able to gather how many recruits she can do in a day.

Explained it's two neighborhoods per day in 1623. Some actions can also automatically recruit.

She claims it's broken and we can get 7 vigs, then why is she not explaining it in an accessible way for everyone so that as a town we can decide on a sequence that will ensure 5-6 town-sided vigs today, but just complains about other people ignoring her claim? Ugh.

We aren't deciding on a sequence because I tried to get people to do that, but Bingle and Koba decided to just be sitting here ranting about how I'm scummy and this needs to die rather than trying to help organize such a thing! I don't see you answering who

you

think would possibly be good to trust with vig power, either! I'm thinking Ranger might be a good place for me to start, she seems likely town. Probably Theta afterwards, she's likely town and gets some really interesting potential with her role plus my abilities, but can't be my other neighborhood for the day because she can't generate town recruits until Ranger hits her with the de-modifier ability, so it risks dying out if we don't establish it more firmly.

But all this is NAI.
The thing I really do not like about the slot is that there's like 0 attempt to solve except for the red PM thing. Like the slot is focused on mech only which doesn't feel like Town!Aureal at all (even though I don't know scum!Aureal so I wouldn't be able to tell if it's because she's scum, or just a weird shift in playstyle).

Hey, YOU try getting a ridiculously mech-heavy role like this and see how mech-focused YOU become. I'm a moderately mech-focused person to begin with, I don't even think this is really a shift. Or even that I have much of a 'playstyle'.

Aaaand I think I'm just rambling at this stage. I would really really like to be able to meaningfully contribute but I really don't hate when people go "eh I guess DE70 is town so I'll unvote and not engage with their opinions at all and also I'll go off the wagon I'm on before even 50% of the players had a chance to react to it and decide if they want in, so now there's no wagon and everyone is asking themselves if the game is going to go anywhere". So please if you hate seeing me rambling (I definitely hate seeing myself rambling), don't do that.

Oh, you wanna contribute? How about explaining why you decided to pester me for reads when it was like 12 hours into the game? What made you think this was productive? Why me specifically, do you think I'm normally giving lots of reads constantly?

Or how about explaining why you started to buy into my theory about Alisae, then brushed it off with a "oh no let's not repeat Aureal v. Alisae like that newbie game" which seems to imply that you promptly decided my theory was wrong and we were both town?

[Aureal]

Why the hell should it have to get me something other than a larger chain? Having more than needed for your powers is redundancy that may well be needed if someone leaves and breaks your chain. Which is incidentally another reason why setting up the order matters so much- having a single long chain makes it much more vulnerable to someone quitting and disrupting it all.

It's really fun how the answer to "Aureal is very clearly lying about having claimed the entirety of her role" is "I was definitely lying about claiming the entirety of my role, here's another part of the role that I've kept hidden so far."

Also, the internal consistency of someone being able to leave the ponzi scheme (notably, not something that happened in real ponzi schemes, which really undercuts the "you should have just assumed it matched entirely with the way actual ponzi schemes worked duh" argument from all of 5 posts ago) does not quite align with:

What the hell would be the benefit of targeting the miller claim? I don't see that a miller is any more or less likely to have night actions than any other random player. And FWIW, I hadn't yet even absorbed the fact that being recruited to Amway would block other night actions when I targeted AniX, seeing as that meant nothing to me who has nothing BUT Amway night actions. I quickly realized it when I looked back at the role in describing it to AniX, and cautioned them that if they had cool night actions they might not want to take the offer.

Why the fuck would someone need to be cautioned about joining when they could then choose to leave at any time?

I don't think it really is vanillaizer, you should still have your role and any passive attributes or day actions. You just can't use its night actions,

unless you get out of Amway, which is a night action that'll cost you your vote the next day

(so it'll be pretty obvious if someone does it).

Buddy. Look. I know you've gotta try to find something to get me with. But this is just sad. It it inconvenient to get out of Amway, so I cautioned against it, for AniX's sake and for my own, because I don't exactly want someone deciding they want out after racking up recruits and stranding those people off on their own chain.

This is all totally confirmable by someone getting the damn powers and seeing it all for themself, so I'm going to just stop responding to your flailing attempts to take me down and move on forward with deciding who would be best.

[Aureal]

Okay Aureal I get why you frustrated but a lot of this was explained over multiple posts and was quite confusing to read.

I get that it's not all laid out nicely in a bullet-pointed list because I explained in a way that was hitting on what seemed to be the important stuff, expecting that to be enough for workshopping of ideas to begin and that other people would be able to see all the nitty-gritty details for themselves soon enough. But that doesn't excuse not even bothering to try figuring out anything the role could potentially be used for in favor of skipping straight to 'scumclaim!' Wariness or confusion I could understand; just moving to outright shut everything down without a thought is scum motivation.

If you recruit someone, do they kbow the exact cobditions before they accept? If so I think it would be a good idea to recruit Ranger and she can confirm your role like you said.

I doubt they get any additional information on what they're getting beyond what I say. Why do you bring that up? Do you think I'm lying about what accepting the Amway offer means? What sort of negative effects do you think could happen if I were?

[Aureal]

Also Aureal who are you scumreading besides me? And more importantly, why are you voting me?

Why should I not be voting a scumread? You, Alisae, Bingle seems like a pretty good fit for the scumteam. Quite possibly Koba to go along with it. Didn't someone say something early on about Alisae's energy and how they could see it coming from scum if Koba and Bingle were her teammates? Hmmm. And maybe Cook/Drew?

Were you going to respond to the things I asked you about?

[Aureal]

But who exactly tried to shut you down??? What you talking about?

I really think this is feigned ignorance and I'm trying to not be frustrated by it, so here, have a sample of Bingle's quotes which make it quite clear what he wants to happen and are not exactly hard to find seeing as they're from the last couple of pages:

Ooh, nice, a scumclaim.

Tl;dr, this is probably a Sakura Hana from RC’s UPick type deal where the role is all about scum convincing town to trust them and then profiting.

AniX should accept the power up and claim the information they get, but no one else should accept a power up from either player aorn.

Yeah, in hindsight, AniX's abilities are actually worth something and we should keep those. We should just lim the shit out of your ass as is.

[Aureal]

I doubt they get any additional information on what they're getting beyond what I say. Why do you bring that up? Do you think I'm lying about what accepting the Amway offer means? What sort of negative effects do you think could happen if I were?

I got no clue but you can never be too careful. I was just asking.
I really don't understand your defensiveness though. Wouldn't you ask the same question in my position?

Well maybe you should go re-read the crap Bingle has been pulling out because you just seem like you're trying to reinforce his "this is SOOOOO BAD no I can't explain HOW" narrative designed to instill doubt in town so they won't care about losing out on the potential from my role.

[Aureal]

Also it just occured to me that if you are scum your role might provide fake info to your target. So even if you do target Ranger it might not fully confirm your role. I really am NOT implying that you ARE scum though.

But I would really, really appreciate a bullet point list. And I gave already said that I'm potentially in favor of you targeting Ranger, so actually me asking for bullet points is NOT "not even bothering to try figuring out how to use the role". I currently think we need more info and that targeting Ranger would be the best use if it works like you say it does.

Yeah, I already acknowledged that you guys can't be sure that my role is actually entirely the same as the abilities I give to others. I understand that and fully expect that I'm not going to be surviving deep into the game, it's just a matter of whether scum or town kill me off first. What is not acceptable is just waving it all away so I can get killed tonight and leave none of it behind for town when they see in the morning that it all came from town in the first place so they didn't need to be paranoid but OOOOOPS TOO LATE NOW. I

will

be using my other neighborhood on someone today so it'd be really cool to get some feedback from others on this stuff but that's not happening because Bingle's been yelling about it being scum.

I just looked back at the claim list and realized Ranger is not the place to start under my current plan, unfortunately, because we need her to use her ability on Theta tonight so Theta can be not Desperate and thus use the Amway on town tomorrow. I'll have to ponder that a little more and maybe go out on a limb with someone who's a less confident read like STD or Ircher.

[Aureal]

In looking at the claims again though, I've noticed that Nurse's claim is semi-confirmable by my abilities as well though, as a neighborhood is something both parties will know exists. So if I get 3 recruits to get the neighborhood ability, Nurse and I can target the same player, but the neighborhood should fail. If we get a neighborhood anyway, something has gone wrong with Nurse's power- either he got blocked or didn't have it. I don't know that this is very useful, but it's something.

[Aureal]

That should be "either he or I got blocked or he didn't have it."

[Aureal]

Great, Ranger's here now too. Can you and Theta like, talk to Bingle for me because you all seem to have some disagreements about how your roles interact with mine.

[Aureal]

And Bingle continues to be an unabashed liar, trying to get people to forget the multiple ways my role can affect others that have already been identified. But hey, he's scum, that's what he's gotta do. Guess he's just pissy that he claimed a role that mine can disprove.

[Aureal]

Yeah, I already acknowledged that you guys can't be sure that my role is actually entirely the same as the abilities I give to others. I understand that and fully expect that I'm not going to be surviving deep into the game, it's just a matter of whether scum or town kill me off first. What is not acceptable is just waving it all away so I can get killed tonight and leave none of it behind for town when they see in the morning that it all came from town in the first place so they didn't need to be paranoid but OOOOOPS TOO LATE NOW. I will
be using my other neighborhood on someone today so it'd be really cool to get some feedback from others on this stuff but that's not happening because Bingle's been yelling about it being scum.

I told you already: I think you should neighborize Ranger.

OMFG GUYS

DE is such obvious scum here

He literally just cut out the last paragraph WHERE I EXPLAIN WHY WE SHOULDN'T GIVE IT TO RANGER YET

so he can just say again that I should give it to Ranger

WTF

[Aureal]

Ranger it'd be lovely if you'd actually give any sort of explanation of your reads. You've had some noticeable shifts, but then again you weren't explaining your reads in the first place so I don't know why you thought DE was towny in the first place when he's been rather scummy all game and has just decided to start scraping the bottom of the scum-barrel with nonsense.

[Aureal]

Ranger it'd be lovely if you'd actually give any sort of explanation of your reads. You've had some noticeable shifts, but then again you weren't explaining your reads in the first place so I don't know why you thought DE was towny in the first place when he's been rather scummy all game and has just decided to start scraping the bottom of the scum-barrel with nonsense.

Simply put, I instalocked DragonEater70 as scum last game when he actually was. Trusting that wasn't a fluke, he's town here. His play feels radically different as well. He's more active, his tone's better, and his content more varied.

He's not more active, he's actively dodging answering questions and acting oblivious rather than trying to figure things out. Like, he literally complained that nobody would engage with him so I asked him questions about scummy things he did, he didn't answer, I reminded him, and he just acted like he never saw them. That's not someone who cares about engagement, that's someone trying to not have to do things. This is not the inquisitive and thoughtful town DE70 I played with in N2114, this's his scum meta. He does realize that lurking can make pressure just go away, you know.

And that's not even getting into all the other ridiculous stuff he's done. His behavior around claiming is just atrocious. First, he wasn't really waiting on anything to claim. Yet did wait. And wait. And wait. Accusing you of fakeclaiming in the process for no discernable reason that doesn't seem to have been followed up on in any way. Then he moves on to trying to say he didn't want to claim because he didn't want to be roleblocked/killed. When his ability is so damn useless. Oh, and that he didn't want to vote Koba out because of his role, but... for some reason didn't want to just say this at the time when Koba claimed. With massclaim well underway by this point. It took him FIVE WHOLE DAYS after Koba's claim to bring his own claim out, when bringing it up immediately would be the most natural thing to do.

Or, let's see the scummy things that he's done today to try to push me. He's totally ignored me when I explained why you can't get the Amway powers day one to just keep trying to tell me to neighborize you for it then nonsensically blamed the quote feature for his insistence that

I'm

the one who's ignoring him. He's just randomly called a post of mine where I muse about a potential action that could be taken with my powers "not townie" and voted me with zero explanation. He's made a totally false assertion that I have 'complete disregard for scumhunting' when I was like the first person in the game to be scumhunting and have assembled a group of strong scumreads.

And I'm not even gonna get into the no-elimination discussion nonsense...

Delta got a scum role PM upon replacing in and is lost on what to do. Doctor Drew was in his scum meta, tried to diverge from it with a disingenuous attack on me, yet failed.

Delta is VLA.

[Aureal]

1. I just checked our combined ISO and I have NOT, in fact, pestered you for reads within 12 hours of the game starting. I have not checked farther than post 250 (about 16 hours into the game), but if I pestered you later than that I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask for reads after page 10.

btw just wanna say I don't scumread AniX, just in disagreement with their way of thinking. However I don't think arguing with them is gonna get me anywhere.

Aureal: can I get your reads please? You literally haven't voiced a single one since game started.

Right here. 16 hours into the game. Yes, that's a

ridiculous

thing to expect. Especially since I ACTUALLY WAS SCUMHUNTING FROM MY SECOND POST ON in this case, unlike many games where things may be slow to develop. Why would you choose ME of all people to randomly ask for reads? I don't do readlists and I bring up reads when it seems appropriate. This random callout is taking a page from patchwork's newbscum playbook, trying to look like you're hunting by wanting someone else to do stuff.

4. Because I was not interested in that 1v1 and I did feel it was silly to sr Alisae based off that? And also, because, ya'know, I didn't enjoy what happened back then and I felt like I don't want to re-live it? Like sure maybe Alisae is scum here, but I'm playing this game to have fun and I won't be having any fun from that kind of intense 1v1. So I rather drop ot even if it's suboptimal.

Except you did seem to agree with it. Then came back an hour later and tried to make the issue go away because you 'didn't want a repeat of that TvT'. In other words, you tried to distance from Alisae but also wanted me and others to not continue to scumread her for it.

Yeah I openly admitted that I didn't want to claim, and I've also explained why. And it's not like it's made up. I literally asked Ranger in thread if she thinks I should fake claim because I was really not happy with claiming cop and eating a bullet.

You didn't claim cop, you claimed ALMOST ALWAYS USELESS cop.

First of all, I'm hurt. Second of all, cop is the most broken Normal role there probably is, and a prime target for kills and roleblocks. Third of all, I'm still confident we can lim scum today. Just in Newbies the amount of D1 scum lims is like 30-40% I think (but don't quote me on that), and I'm pretty sure this playerlist is better than Newbies. So yeah I'd rather not lose a 50-60% chance for a cop ability, thank you very much. And if we lim scum today then we are almost guaranteed to get another one tomorrow by way of associative tells, investigation of PoE, etc.

The lead wagon is on town, your "better" playerlist is just sitting there shrugging as scum control the narrative, and you're saying this BS.

Because I didn't want to claim???

And I literally said this. IN RELATION TO VOTING KOBA:

I know what you said, it's what you DIDN'T say. There was a massclaim underway, people were talking like they wanted to do something that you supposedly were confident would make your ability useless, but you still didn't want to come out and say it. Even though at that point you had to because we're over halfway though a massclaim.

nonsensically blamed the quote feature for his insistence that I'm
the one who's ignoring him

You told me I'd cut out text as a scummy thing, I said it was cut by accident. I never said it had anything to do with you ignoring me. wtf?[/quote]

DE: You should give Ranger the Amway
Aureal: Can't because her ability is needed tonight
Aureal: It'd be nice if people would give input in who gets the Amway
DE: I already said you should give Ranger the Amway

You didn't address my point at all, just acted like I didn't say anything of the sort. That's acting like I'M the one ignoring YOU, trying to make me look bad.

I really don't get this logic at all, but whatever. If it's so incredibly important that THETA specifically will use Amway on town (when she could just use it on scum or on a miller and confirm them as scum or miller. Like have you actually not thought of that???), then you could pick some other towncore member instead of saying "well your suggestion to neighborize Ranger sucks so therefore it doesn't count and you haven't been engaging with me"

Like geez, if it's so important to you, you don't HAVE to freaking BLAME everyone regarding this.

I'm specifically concerned with Theta being able to amass recruits so she can have some useful powers because she's been one of my strongest townreads, yes! I don't want these powers to go to scum, I want them to go to town! Scum can get recruited but they need to be down at the bottom of the chains so they can't do anything useful with it. Why would I want her to JUST use it today as a cop check when she can do that AND get recruits tomorrow with use of Ranger's ability?!

Sorry for this huge wall, please read it though because it refutes most of Aureal's points and actually the fact that she wants Theta to be not Desperate when she uses Amway is like anti-town as fuck.

How the fuck is wanting a TOWNREAD to be someone best positioned to gain power from Amway anti-town?! You're the one who's trying to stop it from happening by wanting Ranger to get Amway here. Which would also put the brakes on Theta's ability to treestump town tomorrow if needed- this is something that directly affects YOU TOO, if your role were really what you claimed it is. Which just makes it more suspicious that you kept pushing Ranger forward as a candidate for Amway- why her specifically? If you really think you're getting a cop check but getting shot tonight, you should be like "oh cool, Ranger can make it so Theta can treestump me so I can give the check results", not keep insisting on a course that would stop Ranger from doing that.

I'm going to stop with this nonsense now, you're all raising my blood pressure too much, and just focus on figuring out who to neighborize so then they pass it to Theta; and she can try it out and hopefully that'll give us some further insight on how much more we want to do with it at this point.

[Aureal]

can we just kill aureal and move on? like I kinda don't care to read more bad faith shade from them tbh LOL

Like read thru the points, they're all trying to frame things that look "weird" or "undesirable" (like stuff that appears anti-town on the surface) to push DE and it just gives "scum desperate to get an easy looking miskill through"

Since this is apparently the standard for this game, I won't bother pointing out that Koba's stance on DE has apparently gone from "obvtown" to "easy looking miskill" and just adopt the standard.

Can we just kill Koba and move on? Like I kinda don't care to read more bad faith shade from them tbh LOL.

[Aureal]

can we just kill aureal and move on? like I kinda don't care to read more bad faith shade from them tbh LOL

Like read thru the points, they're all trying to frame things that look "weird" or "undesirable" (like stuff that appears anti-town on the surface) to push DE and it just gives "scum desperate to get an easy looking miskill through"

Is Scum!Aureal known for this, though?

I'm not sure, and I can't think very clearly now but this is a good point so I'll look into it when I feel better probably.
Please don't hammer Aureal yet.
UNVOTE: Aureal

It's not really a good point.

In a vacuum, "is X known for doing Y as <alignment>" can be a fine question.

In this case, Y is a highly subjective narrative being pushed out by certain players, not a factual thing that can readily be agreed upon.

Therefore, the person asking this question is implicitly supporting the idea that Y is true. While also trying to make the argument that it doesn't necessarily come from scum. It both undermines the credibility of my arguments by agreeing that I'm trying to frame things, while also trying to position himself as correct upon my townflip.

This is quite likely a scum pop-in, especially given Nurse's status has been at "wow I can't believe he's still in this game" so choosing this one thing to say rather than addressing anything else is pretty noteworthy.

[Aureal]

Alright, I've sat down and analyzed roles (stealing Ranger's descriptions) so here's my recommendations.

Alisae: 1x ignite arsonist - can mark one person per night up to two, can ignite once in game killing marked targets.
ABILITY: Potentially useful Night ability with limited shots
ALIGNMENT: Scum

Ircher: Day-Neighborizer, loses vote on following day.
ABILITY: Unaffected
ALIGNMENT: Null

Bingle: Immune townie - can't be altered in any way/shape/form, can choose between bp or ascetic.
ABILITY: Unaffected
ALIGNMENT: Scum

Theta Alpine: Desperate Treevivor Doomer - Temporary treestump of those investigating as a different alignment to her, must be used within 24 hours of the player's death.
ABILITY: Unaffected
ALIGNMENT: Town

Skygazer: Compulsive Loan Shark - Gives people control of vote on even days. Takes control of actions of the player on the following night.
ABILITY: Basically useless unless someone wants to explain how controlling a player's target could be useful? Unclear how roles would fully interact, could end up with Sky giving away vote but being unable to control night action, be unaffected at all, or just have the whole role become unavailable since breaking it in half could be considered breaking the role?
ALIGNMENT: Townlean

Random Nurse: Non-Consecutive Enforcer - rolestopper for everything except nightkills.
ABILITY: Antitown
ALIGNMENT: Scumlean

Save The Dragons: Hotelier - Neighborizes two players, but only for that night. (This is PenguinPower's, presumably. The listmod needed awareness of Community Redux.)
ABILITY: Minor use
ALIGNMENT: Null

AniX: Restricted Joat of some kind. Three 1x abilities triggered upon performing certain actions or lack thereof during the day. Delayer (not voting restriction), tracker (vote crazy), vig (tunnel vote).
ABILITY: Useful Night ability with limited shots
ALIGNMENT: Null

Doctor Drew/Deltabreedy: Eternal Universal Backup - inherits the role of the last town player to die, continuously.
ABILITY: Chance at potentially useful temporary Night ability
ALIGNMENT: Scumlean

DKKoba: Temporary Death Miller - flips as random scum role in the game until that role dies.
ABILITY: Unaffected
ALIGNMENT: Scum

Political Clout: Sensitive Tracker - is aware of any results which could cause result to be inaccurate, but not if result actually is.
ABILITY: Potentially useful Night ability
ALIGNMENT: Null

DragonEater70: Cop who loses role when town is eliminated.
ABILITY: Potentially useful Night ability with limited shots
ALIGNMENT: Scumlean

Ranger: Passifizer - Disables passives/modifiers for that night and following day, becomes miller during night when using.
ABILITY: Potentially useful Night ability while Theta is alive to use it on
ALIGNMENT: Town

Cook: Modifier - gives random negative utility to target.
ABILITY: Useless
ALIGNMENT: Scumlean

camelCasedSnivy: Baker - gives out goods which can self-roleblock when eaten, baked goods can be passed on, can only be used three times.
ABILITY: Potentially useful Night ability with limited shots
ALIGNMENT: Null

KatyKimFanClub: Revealer - reveals a random player's role if killed.
ABILITY: Unaffected
ALIGNMENT: Null

Recommend High Chain Powers and Immediately Available: KKFC, Ircher, Skygazer (really hard to categorize given the uncertainty of her role's interaction), Theta, Save the Dragons
Recommend High Chain Powers and Available After Abilities Expended: AniX, Ranger, Snivy
No Chain: Political Clout
Recommend Minimize Chain Powers: Alisae, Cook, Bingle, DE70, DkKoba, Deltabreedy, Random Nurse


Ergo, I think I will start with KKFC, who should at the least chain it to Theta today so she can make use of the Desperate modifier to attempt to use it on people today as an investigation. KKFC, you down with that?

[Aureal]

blah blah something something role madness can't call a role a particular alignment except when you want to justify a scumread on someone you want to push blah

[Aureal]

That's not scummy of you, no. You may note I just put you at only a scumlean rather than full scumread, because you've tried to engage with some arguments, however frustrating your manner of doing so; as opposed to Bingle and Koba who are operating on the "just yell scum over and over" level.

[Aureal]

Sure Aureal seems good to me

Very well then! Have you ever thought about owning your own business? Just reply to this message! The secret to increasing your wealth can be yours too!

[Aureal]

Lol nice try

Pretend this UNVOTE: DragonEater70 is a vote for Cook

[Aureal]

You're an actual wagon and adding to it now risks day ending too soon. There's much to do yet once Theta acquires Amway.

[Aureal]

Yeah, that's what I just asked the mod about. If the neighborhood fails you get to keep going until you have two neighborhoods.
So if:
1) Theta is town
2) Theta's Desperate modifier applies to Amway abilities
Then Theta gets to fail a bunch of neighborhood attempts on town until she hits two scum with successful neighborhoods

If 1 is false it should become apparent pretty quickly because scum can't let this continue into future days by letting her live
If 2 is false probably the first two neighborhoods succeed

[Aureal]

That's correct

[Aureal]

Honestly DE, it's frustrating to deal with you because you don't seem to be paying enough attention to have as many opinions as you have. You seem to be massively skipping around in what you're paying attention to. If you're town and believe Bingle and I are reasonably likely to be town, you need to actually pay attention to the situation and try to meditate it because we're hellbent on the other being scum. Bingle saw my claim and immediately set his sights on me and turned his tone to 'aggravate'. His attempts to explain why he is acting this way towards me have been cases of singling me out for things that others have also done or just made zero sense. He changes his tune about what he thinks is going on with my role based on how he thinks he can best discredit me. And you don't seem to care about any of this. It's why I've had such a hard time dealing with you: you just seemed to be coming in to help add to the shade without caring to look at it. I'm scarcely even looking at what Bingle and Koba are saying anymore because they're clearly just out to piss me off with insults and inanity.

This really should not be hard to see even from just looking at Bingle's latest comments. It obviously makes ZERO sense to target him for Amway so that he can see whether it's theater or not, because HE CLAIMED A ROLE THAT CANNOT RECEIVE ADDITIONAL POWER. At most he would see that a neighborhood has been created between him and the person who targeted him. If that's actually his role he's just gonna have to rely on others saying that it exists.

It also makes zero sense in the context of Theta specifically being the one using it as an alignment detector with her Desperate modifier, because if those two points I noted are true then absolutely nothing will happen from a townie's perspective after they engage in the initial Amway back and forth. It'll be up to Theta to check with the mod to confirm that nothing is happening rather than that the mod didn't see the interaction. After Theta has tried as many players as she can, KKFC can use his other neighborhood on someone who's been cleared by Theta, to show that it does indeed exist. If the simple existence of a neighborhood is good enough evidence for now, it could even be you; otherwise there's a few other decent candidates to accept Amway power. It doesn't have to go any farther than that today, I understand having a REASONABLE amount of suspicion that there's something more to it all.

But absolutely no way should Cook be an early target. You didn't even read the explanation of how it can keep clearing people until hitting scum, did you?

[Aureal]

See, Bingle is still at it. Being the first conftown or the fifth makes no difference, but here he is still trying to mess with things. Theta, this is what I asked the mod:

It says two neighborhoods per day can be created. Does this mean that, if an attempt to create one is made but fails due to some game effect such as a role which disallows the action or the target already being an Amway consultant, the consultant may continue making attempts until two successful neighborhoods are created? Or does a failed attempt count towards the limit of two?

So when you get all set up with it, go ahead and confirm that answer for yourself.

[Aureal]

Like seriously, look at what Bingle is saying here. My role is supposedly obviously scum because it has some forcible recruiting at the upper end? That comes along with the ROLEBLOCK and VIG actions- these are not actions you take on people you think are town. But more importantly, this cannot be the basis for his instant certainty that my role is scum because I hadn't even been pinged that these were of note and so didn't mention them at first.

And his claim that I'm trying to be townread based on my role is just flat out laughable. I'm never trying to be townread- I'm an erratic null player overall. And in this game specifically I've repeatedly said that I expect to die early because of this role, whether to paranoid town or fearful scum. I've only talked about my perspective on the alignment it'd likely go to in RESPONSE to the claim that it's obviously a scum role. A claim coming from people who were trying to say that it's role madness so you can't call any roles as belonging to an alignment, oh except for mine. I'm certainly not the only one who thinks that the primary and most readily available power being increasing communication makes it rather towny, so go argue with DE or someone about it if you disagree.

[Aureal]

See, Bingle is still at it. Being the first conftown or the fifth makes no difference, but here he is still trying to mess with things. Theta, this is what I asked the mod:

It says two neighborhoods per day can be created. Does this mean that, if an attempt to create one is made but fails due to some game effect such as a role which disallows the action or the target already being an Amway consultant, the consultant may continue making attempts until two successful neighborhoods are created? Or does a failed attempt count towards the limit of two?

So when you get all set up with it, go ahead and confirm that answer for yourself.

If the order of conftowns doesn't matter, why do you care that I want to go next? Either I'm scum, offering myself to be caught, or I'm town and it doesn't matter. If you're not lying, there's no reason for you to die on this hill. But you're pushing back against conftowning me because... No reason?

Yes, exactly! Scum has every incentive to try to be first because that's fewer conftown! And here you and Cook are, demanding to be first! Five conftown and two confscum is much worse for scum than just two confscum! Not to mention they could then possibly play two neighborhoods on the first two attempts off as 'oops looks like Desperate doesn't affect it after all' unless Theta gets a clear answer otherwise from the mod.

[Aureal]

his instant certainty that my role is scum

No, you're right. The reason your claim was a scumclaim is because you delayed claiming it obliquely because it would affect massclaim, clearly expected it to be a "Oh everyone backs down off of me" moment when you claimed, and literally no part of it makes you obviously town.

Nobody was "on me" but Koba until AFTER I claimed and you started screaming bloody murder. People were busy wagoning PC for outright refusing to claim at the time, not paying attention to me. You're a lying scum and I am through talking to you.

[Aureal]

Should just be a matter of waiting for the mod to handle it, assuming KKFC actually made the offer in neighborhood and Theta isn't just saying "hey I want Amway" to crickets.

[Aureal]

Sad but not entirely unexpected. KKFC should definitely hit someone else with a neighborhood before we end the day. At some point people can try to confirm that Bingle can't receive the Amway abilities, doesn't necessarily have to be today.

[Aureal]

Oh, your Desperate still applies to the night actions you would get from Amway, just not the recruitment pitch? You're still useful as a Desperate vig, then, yeah, and you probably still get shot tonight. Might not be a bad idea to target me with the vig tonight then, though that likely leads to you getting killed tonight and Bingle claiming you were roleblocked so he can keep up the vendetta, and then I get killed n2 anyway because I've got a vig. So eh, maybe it's not that useful after all, unless we manage to roleblock the scum who'd be making the kill. I guess we would have a lot of roleblockers at that point, we could arrange a list of who's blocking who and thus have a list of people who are fairly confirmed to not have made a kill that night, contingent on the word of the person who blocked them.

I kinda doubt this game has the appetite to be that patient and organized though.

Also, I did have a reason for saying KKFC should use his other neighborhood. Doesn't have to go though with a full recruitment, but he definitely should open it. Maybe with DE or Snivy?

[Aureal]

So maybe best play for now is for Theta to get 3 recruits and use the neighborhood night action as a cop check, probably without calling a target. We can be much more confident in a clear that way since there shouldn't be Amway roleblocks in place, and scum only maybe shoot her.

[Aureal]

Also, I did have a reason for saying KKFC should use his other neighborhood. Doesn't have to go though with a full recruitment, but he definitely should open it. Maybe with DE or Snivy?

Do you wanna SAY what is the reason? Aside from locking us away from being recruited by Theta?

It doesn't lock anything of the sort, and if he uses it on you or Snivy like I suggested then you aren't people who want the full recruitment at this point anyway because that bars you from using your own night actions. I just want him to open the neighborhood, and I'll explain after.

Sad but not entirely unexpected. KKFC should definitely hit someone else with a neighborhood before we end the day. At some point people can try to confirm that Bingle can't receive the Amway abilities, doesn't necessarily have to be today.

Fun how Aureal, despite crusading hard for her role to be a large chain to maximize the amount of powers people who are not Aureal get, seems to be entirely fine with just going wide here.

Yeah.

This reminds me of something but I will make a separate post for it.

Really, please just stop fucking agreeing with every obvious lie Bingle comes up with. I've given multiple suggestions for what to do at this point and the only thing I'm adamant needs to happen is KKFC opening a second neighborhood, and suggested it be with PEOPLE WHO SHOULD NOT BE RECRUITED TO AMWAY RIGHT NOW which would leave KKFC with no power yet today. Nor have I ever "crusaded hard" for any particular configuration- what I have done is ASK PEOPLE FOR INPUT ON IT only to get nothing but vile slander.

[Aureal]

@Aureal

do other recruits retain the abilities and can they continue to recruit if you are dead?

Do people who are dead still count as recruits?

I also want to know what is happening in the hood, if you discussed reads with Anix (especially your reads on each other)

Yes, yes, and very little. AniX and I exchanged a couple points on our suspicion of DE and a bit about our abilities before the massclaim, not much else of note. I asked him to vig me tomorrow, he hasn't reacted.

[Aureal]

Really, please just stop fucking agreeing with every obvious lie Bingle comes up with. I've given multiple suggestions for what to do at this point and the only thing I'm adamant needs to happen is KKFC opening a second neighborhood, and suggested it be with PEOPLE WHO SHOULD NOT BE RECRUITED TO AMWAY RIGHT NOW which would leave KKFC with no power yet today. Nor have I ever "crusaded hard" for any particular configuration- what I have done is ASK PEOPLE FOR INPUT ON IT only to get nothing but vile slander.

IDK, I do remember you saying something about how we should listen to you because you want to have SEVEN FUCKING VIGS. Or something of this manner.

Please go cite whatever gave you that impression, because all I've done is explain the POTENTIAL that can be had with it. I never really expected people would want to do that because it's obviously introducing huge swing into the game and really should only be done if we want to play the game for lulz. I'm open to playing the game for lulz because this is exactly the kind of game that lends itself to that, but I certainly haven't crusaded for it.

Also, do you realize that it sounds weird that "you just want him to open the neighborhood and you will explain after"?
Like I don't think you are necessarily scum but you keep saying weird things like that and it is weird. I'd expect you to at least say something like "There's actually another hidden part of my role which I feel it is imperative is not known to scum, but it involves KKFC neighborizing you" or something.
But you haven't said that so yeah it does feel weird (about the same level of weird as my "Ranger should I fake claim" probably, because that was actually fucking weird of me)

Is it really that hard to figure that I'd rather not say just yet because then Mafia knowing what I'm thinking about gives them an advantage? It's probably irrelevant at this point but I'm trying to cover our bases. Why do you think that's so suspicious? Do you really think just having opened a neighborhood because someone responded to a quote is going to give any sort of advantage to me if I were scum?

@Aureal

do other recruits retain the abilities and can they continue to recruit if you are dead?

Do people who are dead still count as recruits?

I also want to know what is happening in the hood, if you discussed reads with Anix (especially your reads on each other)

Yes, yes, and very little. AniX and I exchanged a couple points on our suspicion of DE and a bit about our abilities before the massclaim, not much else of note. I asked him to vig me tomorrow, he hasn't reacted.

Why would you want AniX to vig you?

...........

Things like this really make me want to stop talking to you because I just don't have the patience to deal with being asked things that have such OBVIOUS ANSWERS.

Look. At. The. Gamestate.

Bingle and Koba are NEVER going to let up on this "ohgodobvscumrole" thing until my townflip shows that they are in fact just piling on malicious lies and fearmongering. Probably nobody is going to care still at that point, but at least I won't have to deal with it anymore.

[Aureal]

In latest page's obvious madness, Koba reads two whole games in two minutes and decides that we are now playing a uPick?!

[Aureal]

If I get to create my own role PM, can I please have the "give the letters I and C to DkKoba so he can properly finish his username" power, please?

[Aureal]

Are we all ready to end the day or are there some day actions we're still waiting on?

I'm waiting on KKFC's neighborhood at the least. Nobody has argued against getting Theta to 3 recruits so she can use a neighborhood so I think that's a thing to wait for as well.

[Aureal]

IDC about him recruiting anyone else, I just want him to open the neighborhood. DE, you still there?

[Aureal]

Sorry for the misgendering, not sorry for retaliating against personal insults with the same.

[Aureal]

VOTE: aureal

well the slot irks me on a social level so im down anyways

however if their dayplay is at this level as town i also would not miss the slot being gone to tinfoil obvious town for no reason in a state where we can PoE scum more easily.

all aureal cares about is a) survival b) getting people to use her ability

yall fucking blind

thats such a logically fallacious take i have nothing to argue with you about it other than that is not real mafia theory

[Aureal]

I already said I'm not responding to Bingle further. I don't condone use of "deliberately try to make people see red through constant lies and insults and then call them terrible for being tilted by my play" strategy.

[Aureal]

To be clear, I want the neighborhood to be DE or Snivy. If one of those two will agree to it, I'll explain why before they do the neighborhood.

[Aureal]

Like I don't want to come off as condescending or something, but your tone feels unpleasantly aggressive to me to a degree where I just don't want to read your posts.
So if you are town and want people to read and agree with you, I suggest you try to change your tone a bit.

Again, sorry if I sound condescending.

Well you obviously aren't reading them anyway since I explained what I wanted later and all you did was ask what I want. Honestly that is probably the root of why I am so so so very tilted and antagonistic here. I am being persecuted with obvious lies and malice by Bingle and Koba, and nobody else cares to say anything. You just noted for yourself that Koba lied about what happened in 2114- the fact that their post came two minutes after the game links being posted is itself enough evidence to show that they didn't actually look at it (and quite possibly that the posts were set up in the scum PT and they don't even care enough to let a reasonable amount of time elapse because nobody but me is going to care). But you don't actually care that they're lying - you just keep on going after me instead.

So anyway, YO SNIVY

pagetop tho i should probably read everything and make my own judgement sometime later today

To be clear, I want the neighborhood to be DE or Snivy. If one of those two will agree to it, I'll explain why before they do the neighborhood.

You're up, Snivy!

Actually, AniX would be acceptable here as well, it would also mitigate the "womg getting another neighborhood is bad" paranoia since AniX already has a neighborhood.

[Aureal]

I find it really disappointing that our mechheads' response to my ridiculously powerful role is just "wow, scummy". No attempts to think through how to use it. I thought the ability to give a bunch of people neighborhoods and vigilante powers seemed pretty obviously something that would come from town, unless you think it's some sort of cult. We could know exactly what abilities basically everyone in the game has available at night, reducing the possibilities of who's resposible if there's say, a suspicious roleblock. Or, y'know, we could literally

end this game on Day 2

with proper use of the role and good reads.

also if you can only vig once how would this even be possible

Because the theoretical maximum is seven people with vig power on night one. Vs four scum. It's the wildly swingy lulz option that we're definitely not doing at this point.

So the answer is maybe yes.

OK

I just want to make sure KKFC still has the other neighborhood available

Because I promptly told him to pass a message to Theta, warning her against offering Amway when she got a neighborhood with Desperate in effect, because that would be scum, and scum could go to the scum PT to hand out Amway to their buddies and mess up the Desperate checks.

So if KKFC were Mafia here, it would have been a good move to go do exactly that; they had a whole day to potentially Amway it up before Theta got her answer that Desperate doesn't apply to the day neighborhood action.

So if KKFC can still create a neighborhood it proves he didn't do that, and it's probably some town points for him.

And if I explained it beforehand then scum know exactly what is going on so if KKFC did do that, they try to jump in and be the one to get the neighborhood except really it's just theater that they have a neighborhood. So I didn't want to fight that battle of making it be someone I chose rather than whoever volunteered. I could just be unlucky enough to have chosen people who happen to be scum with him but at least I know it's not a scum motivated choice.

[Aureal]

I am also flattered that you don't think I am scum

Well, gotta pick someone, you know? I don't have a lot of confidence in

anyone

being town at this point.

So if KKFC can still create a neighborhood it proves he didn't do that, and it's probably some town points for him.

It really wouldn’t be. Any semi competent scumteam would be more reactions with their spreading of the amway unless you were scum. This is largely because mysterious additions to amway would necessarily mean scum has been recruited and thus drastically narrow the lim pool. The only way this isn’t true is if you, the original gatekeeper for amway, is scum.

I'll go ahead and respond to this one since in my hopes I probably did give the impression that recruits are more trackable than they are. I did follow up with xyzzy to find out details, and there is wiggle room. They'll answer whether there's enough recruits to perform an action but that's determined at the start of night, so I'm not sure they'd even answer at any random moment. In looking back at the response, those points are more separate than I recalled so I suppose I could

try

asking if I'll be able to neighborize tonight as I'd just assumed I'd have to ask at night, but I have the feeling it's just going to be "wait until night to ask" because having to pop off spot counts on something with as many moving parts as this is asking for problems.

Would you like to join the amway?

Not really but I am going to start typing up my plan now. It's a bit long so bear with me.

He's not actually using a recruitment phrase, fyi. You'd think if he actually wanted to confirm it he would have thought to go copy what KKFC said rather than make up something nobody else has ever said. Also it doesn't matter what you answer, just that you answered.

[Aureal]

It's not, but unless we're waiting to contemplate DE's plan first, KKFC using neighborhood on DE was the intent. We can talk about things more first though. I'll respond more in depth on it after work.

[Aureal]

They can't be rerecruited, all Amway actions fail on someone who leaves

And listing all phrases would be quoting my PM so no go there

[Aureal]

First, let me preface that after my chat with Aureal today I have her as 60-70% certainty as being town, so I'm not exactly happy to vote her. However this plan should satisfy both her and her biggest opponents, from a mechanical viewpoint.

Basically, the idea is this:

1. We DON'T go offering people Amway randomly like Bingle is doing right now. Instead, we choose the two towniest/solviest players and give one of them Amway, who then gives the other Amway. These two players will be the new heads of Amway.
   
2. Then, we flip Aureal and Bingle and Koba are very happy because we finally publicly eveal her role info.
   
3. Then, ALL PLAYERS WHO HAVE Amway, EXCEPT the 2 chosen ones, RESIGN their Amway powers during the night. This can be verified and I'll explain later how, but if they don't comply they will be policy limmed.
   
4. Then, even if mafia night kills one of the chosen townleaders, at least one of them will remain. This town leader can then recruit the player who they consider towniest, who will recruit the player they consider towniest etc. until all players are recruited. If someone isn't recruited then they didn't comply with instructions and get policy limmed.
   
5. Then, the top 5 towniest/solviest players become vigs and can coordinate shots and just shred the PoE list that will be put together.

Okay, sooo...

I specifically asked AniX to use the vig so there's still a chance for you to use your cop action, but if you've made your peace with getting no use out of it then sure you can go ahead and flip me BUT:
1) Absolutely do NOT take direction from Koba and Bingle, they are woefully misleading you whether because of scum motivation or a complete inability to wrap their heads around the idea that not everyone thinks like them therefore they need to shit-tunnel in the shittiest ways. I don't know who constitutes "towny/solvy" at this point as nobody is acting like that anymore, but it is not these two. Promise me you will hold them accountable for the BS they've been up to and not just let them continue to bluster and rant and lie.
2) Theta absolutely should keep the Amway because she is actually quite useful with her Desperate modifier on it when you allow her a few recruits so she can neighborize, she's probably going to get killed right away because of it so you really don't need to worry about it. If she's still alive tomorrow when you can see that it's perfectly safe to let Amway loose, she can probably get up to being a Desperate vig. Nor do I really see a reason for KKFC to leave- if you think he's scum then just shoot him to remove his status at the top of the chain.
3) It should be possible to organize Amway chains in a variety of configurations in order to set desired people up with specific powers. This is exactly what I was expecting Bingle and Koba to work on when I claimed- instead they decided to scream and stick their heads in the sand to make it go away. These chains will only be reliable for the following night due to the ability to leave Amway. However, I doubt the mod is going to put in placeholder votes for these people who have lost their vote the next day, so it should be easy enough to identify who left and consider that a scumclaim.
4) I do not think leaving Amway with only two members overnight is a good idea unless we want to risk losing it, because I wouldn't take it for granted that scum don't have a way to make a second kill like with a vig shot; also Theta being able to Desperate neighborize is too valuable especially in the world where you aren't getting your cop action.

[Aureal]

Oh no, Klick is likely scum. Sad.

[Aureal]

Yeah they can't vig you rn.

Which would be why I said tomorrow, yes.

@Aureal

do other recruits retain the abilities and can they continue to recruit if you are dead?

Do people who are dead still count as recruits?

I also want to know what is happening in the hood, if you discussed reads with Anix (especially your reads on each other)

Yes, yes, and very little. AniX and I exchanged a couple points on our suspicion of DE and a bit about our abilities before the massclaim, not much else of note. I asked him to vig me tomorrow, he hasn't reacted.

[Aureal]

i actually dont scumread ppl for disagreeing with me

Cool, did anyone ever actually claim that? If you're trying to get this from my comment about you two being unable to understand that other people are going to think differently, try looking at Bingle's scumread supposedly being based off the fact that I didn't treat people like they're playing Baby's First Mafia Game and go "by the way, vigs are RISKY because they could shoot TOWNIES, oh my! Betcha didn't know that!"

Also on that note, Bingle must have a very hard scumread on DE now since he actually suggested creating a bunch of vigs! And didn't explain to us the risks, oh no!

[Aureal]

First person to quote this gets

culted

amway'd

Do you want to learn about a secret to financial freedom?

Sure

DON'T TAKE THE AMWAY TODAY, IRCHER

It's the only way to show that you aren't scum theatering with KKFC ._.

[Aureal]

Seriously, I left you guys time to make the point that nobody else was going to call Bingle out when he's obviously wrong about basic facts. He wants me gone today because he thinks the current 2 recruits (KKFC &Theta)+3 recruits for Theta so she can neighborize equals the SIX needed for me to roleblock.

I'd almost think this was a setup to actually put me at six and therefore support Bingle's desire to get rid of me right now. Except that would require people having paid any attention to the fact that Bingle was wrong in the first place.

[Aureal]

I feel like there's a lot of scum motivation in trying to end the day before even deciding what to do with Theta. Though she's not moved on to even try recruiting anyone else since Skygazer clearly isn't taking it, so maybe she doesn't intend to?

Oh, also I noticed that the roleblock/recruit also opens a neighborhood if not on an Amway consultant, so if I do end up with that ability it's confirmable that I didn't target Theta to block her Desperate neighborize.

And before you yell at me about not mentioning that before, remember two other people now have the exact same ability list in their possession and haven't felt any need to try to do a detailed paraphrase to make sure all details have been made public either. ._.

[Aureal]

So that would also serve as a check on whether someone has Amway or not, on the off chance that it has been distributed privately.

[Aureal]

Wait, I would have been able to confirm that I didn't roleblock anyway by just using a regular neighborhood on a non Amway person, who could confirm they were targeted but not recruited.

Ugh, Bingle is really getting to me. ._.

[Aureal]

So yeah, Theta's neighborize is confirmably safe from me even if I do end up at roleblock tier. (Not that I give any real merit to the idea that Bingle counts as a recruit.)

Or else I hit Secret Amway which has to be scum, and we 1v1.

[Aureal]

The autorecruit and neighborhood should both occur when targeting a non-Amway. So like, it wouldn't neighborize Theta because she's already Amway. But unless you think I can target multiple people at night, just using a regular non-autorecruiting neighborhood shows that I targeted elsewhere.

[Aureal]

Theta claims she has a Desperate modifier, which means her actions will fail on targets who would investigate the same alignment as her. Therefore, her having an action that she gets feedback on success/failure of, such as creating a neighborhood, essentially makes her a cop as long as her action isn't interfered with. If she uses a neighborhood on someone who'd show as same alignment, she gets no neighborhood. If she uses a neighborhood on someone who'd show as another alignment, she gets a neighborhood.

[Aureal]

Ok you need 3 recruits to do a neighborhood. I'm going to assume this is 1shot unless you tell me otherwise

I remember aureal said there was a downside to recruiting scum yes? They can just go off and recruit their own without us knowing. So we need to find 3 townies to recruit with abilities that are equal to or weaker than amway to do a single cop check

One action per night, so she can keep trying to open a neighborhood every night.

And yes, scum could still spread Amway within their own to stop a neighborhood from being created... I think. Actually the wording is not great, I better check with the mod because it might just mean trying to recruit them to Amway fails if they already are in it, not the neighborhood.

Anyway, assuming the neighborhood does fail on Amway, it's still not nearly as desirable for scum to give it to their buddies in secret as it would have been if the day action was affected by Desperate. They'd be losing their own abilities and wouldn't gain any power of value without a large recruit chain that they'd have to bamboozle townies to get. One cop check per night isn't nearly as OP as being able to check a large amount of the playerlist today would have been.

[Aureal]

The Theta branch goes from KKFC, not me. AniX is my other hood. DE should not be a part of anything- the point of Bingle reciting a phrase at him was evidence that the recruitment attempt from Theta did not affect him because that's what he claimed his role did. (Technically it could just be a timing/mod not seeing it thing, it'd be ideal if Theta can confirm that there was mod activity between Bingle accepting Amway in their hood and him attempting the recruitment on DE; and a PM to the mod to make sure they noticed it)

I bet xyzzy is going to have some WORDS for whichever listmod created this role.

[Aureal]

And yes, scum could still spread Amway within their own to stop a neighborhood from being created... I think. Actually the wording is not great, I better check with the mod because it might just mean trying to recruit them to Amway fails if they already are in it, not the neighborhood.

Followup: yes, the neighborhood fails when used on someone who's already joined Amway.

Okay gg ez I just got recruited into Aureal's cult and it's really nice here.

Who recruited you?

I am quite sure this was a joke.

[Aureal]

okay the mod checked in so if no hood is created between KKFC and Ircher, something's up

That's why xyzzy recommended PMing to point out recruitment phrases being used, it's most likely it was overlooked. I

really

doubt Ircher would jump at the open Amway offer just to show that he couldn't get it.

[Aureal]

and i have accepted. whats the plan now?

Pm the mod. Presumably he’ll send you information on how to make a neighborhood. When you get that, make a neighborhood with irch.

xyzzy is not a he

Are we having Skygazer do two recruits herself or does Ircher nab one for a one-strand chain? Kinda want Klick or Cook recruited so they can't use their night action to potentially mess with things, but the slots are scummy so I dunno if it's worth it at this point.

[Aureal]

Ugh Bingle, I've already explained it to you. You have my actions totally backwards. I need to target NON Amway with a regular neighborhood so that person can confirm that they were my target, not an investigative I'm roleblocking. Do you think I can target more than one person? If you do, we're back in "anything is possible" land. If I target Amway with a neighborhood, nothing will happen and nobody will know who I targeted but me.

I'm thinking it'd be a good idea to have Skygazer get Klick as her other recruit, then we have him expend his neighborhoods so we know he didn't give away Amway secretly. I see absolutely no value in his claimed role and it definitely has potential to mess with things.

[Aureal]

The autorecruit and neighborhood should both occur when targeting a non-Amway. So like, it wouldn't neighborize Theta because she's already Amway. But unless you think I can target multiple people at night, just using a regular non-autorecruiting neighborhood shows that I targeted elsewhere.

And yes, scum could still spread Amway within their own to stop a neighborhood from being created... I think. Actually the wording is not great, I better check with the mod because it might just mean trying to recruit them to Amway fails if they already are in it, not the neighborhood.

Followup: yes, the neighborhood fails when used on someone who's already joined Amway.

[Aureal]

I feel like I'm talking to a wall here. -_-

I am not going to use a roleblock even if I somehow have it available, I am going to use a regular neighborhood- on a non-Amway person so they can actually receive it- because I don't want to recruit any more people at this point since that limits Theta's investigation pool.

A message is even stupider- there's obviously no way of telling whether that came from me or from any of the other people with a recruit.

It's like Bingle doesn't even WANT my action to be confirmable.

[Aureal]

Messages are less accountable in the case of Amway having been spread secretly. And I have little hope that we're going to have things all wrapped up nicely enough to consider that possibility minimized.

Imagine I am scum with Ircher, who will likely end day with neighborhoods available still and no ability to message if we have Sky nab a second recruit rather than him doing it. What's to stop him from hitting a scum partner with Amway secretly then I get a roleblock and he sends a message supposedly from me?

Using messages instead of neighborhoods is pointless and flawed because as long as we're all agreed for now not to spread Amway past the point of Theta getting a neighborhood action, it would take bad faith on both parties' ends for it to be spread through a night action neighborhood. And if there's bad faith on both sides, they can just be lying and saying it was just a message.

A neighborhood is a superior choice because it gives easy feedback to both parties and it can't possibly have originated from somewhere else. It has potential fringe benefits of possibly helping detect that Amway has been spread to an unexpected slot that a message doesn't.

[Aureal]

Maybe if Bingle would stop putting out bad takes, I wouldn't feel like my most important task is correcting them!

Who do you see actually "playing Mafia" at this point as opposed to just going "ugh let's kill someone!"?

[Aureal]

Maybe if Bingle would stop putting out bad takes, I wouldn't feel like my most important task is correcting them!

Who do you see actually "playing Mafia" at this point as opposed to just going "ugh let's kill someone!"?

Sorry , post contains 0 mafia solving and all excuses , disregarded.
Sort the damn game or die

Your refusal to answer the question is noted.

[Aureal]

Maybe if Bingle would stop putting out bad takes, I wouldn't feel like my most important task is correcting them!

Who do you see actually "playing Mafia" at this point as opposed to just going "ugh let's kill someone!"?

Sorry , post contains 0 mafia solving and all excuses , disregarded.
Sort the damn game or die

Your refusal to answer the question is noted.

ok LackReads whatever u say

Yeah, that's a really sensible take from someone who posted this just a few days ago:

Why do you think Aureal is just badtown now, DK? Cause I still see a complete lack of anything that would make that slot town.

went back and reread their progression and it looks good enough for now, they arent like much higher than my current PoE

"reads make enough sense"
few days later
"no reads!"

Are you sad that I didn't respond to your softened stance by going "okay Koba is town after all"? Because that's how you're coming off now.

[Aureal]

Mafia wont push things bc they dont wanna piss p ppl off into pushing them back.

There are 4 mafia and all aureal has is 2 scumreads the whole game.
Yes the progression looked ok on the surface level but again, list 5 reads aureal has this entire game.
3k posts, aureal has posted many of them, and still not a single fucking poe, or reads list, or towncore, or anything resemble resembling attempting to make reads

This post is so wrong it's

First, "Mafia won't push things" is a pile of crap opinion, but really...

Trying to not piss people off is supposed to be describing how I've played this game?!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh and I already gave reads on every slot in the game, but oh, I guess little things like facts don't matter

Guess you didn't do a great job evaluating my 'progression' if you didn't even bother paying attention to that, genius

[Aureal]

Yay, more of DE making me want to throw either him or myself off a cliff and more Koba lies. This game so fun.

It's so 'hilarious' that Koba is now trying to use the flavor against me too, when I earlier pointed out that the flavor is something that obviously sounds bad when they were screaming about how the mechanics make it an obviously scum role.

If we're scumreading flavor now, maybe we should deal with the arsonist first though? Y'know, the slot I've been scumreading since page two (and which has been townreading me- oh oops sorry, that doesn't match Koba's narrative ).

[Aureal]

I have less than zero desire to play this game at this point. Koba is incredibly antitown or scum, doing nothing but hypocritically yelling at people to make their will to even look at this thread go negative. I play mafia to give me something to get my mind away from awful negative experiences, not to give me MORE awful negative experiences to think about. Having someone sit there and do nothing but trash me all game for trash reasons just makes me go into "FU" mode, not make me want to play nicely and do what they supposedly want. That really shouldn't be a hard concept, and Koba's a terrible player if they can't figure out that people are gonna have that reaction to them with the way they play. I'm a long-term strategic player- having someone sitting there screaming at me constantly is incredibly self-defeating if they're actually on my side.

[Aureal]

ill probably put aureal at e1 soon

OMFG

Since you and Ircher are the ones in control of getting one more recruit for Theta and aren't doing it, and town is not pressing the matter, it seems that we have decided through COLLECTIVE APATHY that we do not want another investigative tonight.

So WTF are you waiting for?!

If you're saying "that's right, we don't want to have a cop action tonight" then just fucking VOTE: Aureal and end this fucking day already so I can unbookmark all this BS and stop having an apoplectic meltdown every time Koba, Bingle, or DE spout their lies and insanity!

If you're not saying that, then FUCKING DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT INSTEAD OF DRAGGING THE DAY OUT

[Aureal]

You should unvote.

UNVOTE:
Fine, I'll let people take responsibility for their own miselimination vote. But it should not have ever come to this point.

I cannot herd 12 other townies to victory when they are determined to not pay attention.

Like, right now we've got Koba sitting here acting like Meuh will get great power by inheriting my role. This is an obviously untrue position to take as Meuh will have zero recruits and thus zero power, but everyone just sits here in THIS IS FINE mode. Like they have been the entire game while Bingle and Koba constantly spin everything I do as scum, ignoring every rebuttal I make, and just pivoting back to make whichever argument works best for them at the moment as if none of the previous arguments ever happened. And you guys, especially DE, just eat it all up.

Seriously, the guy went "Aureal's question makes a good point and OH MY GOD SHE ACTUALLY THINKS KOBA SHOULD ANSWER THE QUESTION INSTEAD OF JUST ATTACKING HER?!? SCUM!!!!!" It's fucking insane. If DE is actually town here, Koba has him deeply pocketed- saying that DE is "one of the few people who are game state aware" is so ridiculous I'm not sure whether it's scum trying to boost a partner's credibility or scum giving a headpat to the townie who's so deep in their pocket that he's become an attack dog for them.

But sure, let's just go on NOT THINKING about why Koba suddenly decided, appropos of nothing, to start shitpushing me again, when there are so many others doing so much less. Was it the deadline imposition forcing them to take a miselimination back up now rather than risk the wagon on a buddy going through? Was it Bingle telling DE that I would be a good investigation target, risking my slot getting cleared when they want it dead and thought town would do it for them? Who knows? Not this town, because we're not gonna think about it! Not even after you flip me town and know that Koba arbitrarily decided to come up with something to get pissy about to start pushing a townie's wagon while Cook was the lead wagon, are you gonna think about it.

I don't have to look at this game again this phase so I'm just gonnaVOTE: Cook like I promised so long ago, and leave the rest of you to fuck things up however much you feel like. Maybe I'll actually be able to just stop looking at this trainwreck, hoping against hope that this time when I see new posts, it will be from people who actually seem to reside in the same reality as me, instead of people screaming at me for trying to say anything useful.

But probably I won't.