Star Trek Deep Space Nine Season 1 Mafia(game over!)

[Riabi]

Hey all. Just saying hi for now. I will catch up ASAP.

[Riabi]

I just started this game, and I feel like Thor and Sen are both trying to bully everyone around in this game. I'm not sure it's alignment indicative, just an observation.

Ok, I just finished going through the game. I skimmed a lot, because holy crap 80 pages, but I feel like I have a grip on what's gone on. A few notes, in no particular order.

* 1727Arc asking for a TL:DR before leaving? Really? Why not replace out?

* PB is really suspicious to me. He seems to spend a lot of time hedging his bets and not really sticking his neck out. This is scummy.

* The CDB situation is weird... there's bad play there either way, and I'm not sure what to think of that. We don't have any way of knowing who goofed up, and I'm not sure we should be basing a wagon on bad play when we don't know who made the bad play.

* Sinsun's 1767 Feels very OMGUS to me. I don't like it.

* Dave is a town read for me

* Titus feels town too. She replaced into my last game, didn't read anything that came before (just like this game) and she feels similar here.

* There are a lot of scum leaning reads for me in this game, but that's largely because there ahve been a lot of slots/players that just aren't doing much (and yes, I realize that applies to my slot as well, I'll change that).

* RIP... I get that he's ESL, but posts like 1770 1771 and 1772 are just...???? What is the point of even making those posts? That said, I'm not 100% convinced his play is scummy and not just weird.

There was a lot to go through here, and it's entirely possible I've missed something. I'm open to others pointing out things I might have missed that they feel is important for me to know. Especially those on the RIP wagon.

Also Monkey, can we please get a VC?

[Riabi]

The second CDB flips town, I'm going to just vote only on the CDB wagon, because there's at least 3-4 scum on it.

It's time to wake up and see that mafia (such as Kling and Nero) ...

Um...

Kling and Nero aren't on CDB's wagon. These two sentences are not consistent. Having one's thoughts/reads not be internally consistent from post to post is often a scum tell. It's a pretty serious scum tell when the inconsistency is right there in one post

This, combined with the OMGUS vote I mentioned earlier leads me to this...
VOTE: Sinsun

[Riabi]

TBF he's talking about my intent to hammer post, which was really just to move the game along. I kinda like CBD and am more worried that Sin knows he's town so he can just go on a lynch spree.

You like CBD as a lynch? Or you like him as a person/player?

[Riabi]

* The CDB situation is weird... there's bad play there either way, and I'm not sure what to think of that. We don't have any way of knowing who goofed up, and I'm not sure we should be basing a wagon on bad play when we don't know who made the bad play.

Isn't that an exact description of why he should be lynched? Especially ASAP? Especially with a VT claim?

Not necessarily if the goof up was scum killing a miller and CDB really is a VT. If that's what indeed happened, then all we really gain by lynching him is another green flip. And yes, I recognize that there is some info we get from that, but, I'd rather use the time we have to lynch people that have actually behaved like scum, and I just don't see that in this case.

[Riabi]

This, combined with the OMGUS vote I mentioned earlier leads me to this...
VOTE: Sinsun

This isnt going to happen. CDB/RIP are your choices. (Or no lynch if you prefer that...)

I think it's pretty evident that they aren't my only choices, as I chose something else. It might not be a likely lynch, but, that doesn't mean I shouldn't vote my strongest read.

[Riabi]

The three days till deadline does suggest you need to work it in hyperdrive if you wish to work it though.

I just got into this game, and I've hardly played with anyone here. I don't think I have the charisma to pull off something like that right now. That said, I still believe my vote is in the best place right now, since I don't really like either of the wagons. I'll keep watching/reading, and if someone can convince me that lynching one of the two wagon targets is the best play, I will re-consider.

[Riabi]

This post is a cop out.

No, it's a statement of fact. I know my abilities, and I know how strong my case is right now (ie, not super strong). I think it's the strongest out there right now, but, clearly the momentum of this game is headed in a different direction.

Second off, if you dislike the other wagons, why in the world are you asking to be sold on them?

I'm not asking to be sold on them, I'm acknowledging the fact that I might be wrong. I'm trying to figure this game out, and while I'd like to think that my powers of deduction rise to the level of superhero, a quick read of my last game will show that's clearly not the case. I'm coming off of a shit game where I tunneled fellow townies more than once, and I'm doing my damndest to not do that this game.

Thirdly - I literally just went into an opinion on your wagon, and my wagon,a nd even the RIP wagon - why not respond to that at the very least?

I didn't directly respond because I didn't really see any new info. You were basically spouting off the same things you've been spouting off for like 4 or 5 pages. But, if you want a response...

I will agree that there is a chance that CDB is town (though this makes me scum, just ask Titus) but I fail to see or grok how that chance is any worse than the chance anyone has to be town at this stage.

Because CDB hasn't done anything actively scummy. The ONLY case against him is some weird post that may or may not be a crumb. That's literally the only case against him. I don't like strictly associative cases.

Your case on Simsun. for instance, is based off derp play and OMGUS. I don't even accept either as particularly clear scumtells...

But at least it's based off of something Simsun has done. No, it's not the strongest case in the world, but your case on CDB is, IMO, not just weak, it's practically non-existant.


P-edit

UNVOTE: RIP
VOTE: Kling

Alrighty then Titus, lets see if we can kill some obv scum then this game before town gets destroyed by inactivity.

Do you mind helping me out here? Why is she obvscum? If you have oulined the case before, I'd be ok with a link to that.

[Riabi]

I have no idea why people want to force another claim after unvoting a push to a VT claim

I have no idea why you can't seem to see that there are a number of us town reading him, and are reluctant to vote what we feel is likely another mis-lynch.

[Riabi]

The wagon has already admitted that RIP's being lynched not because he is scummy but because they're all too lazy.

It has? Do you mind sourcing that?

[Riabi]

Titus has admitted she's lynching RIP because she townreads CDB suddenly

How is that being lazy? I'm townreading him too....

Back to the question you jumped over though.

show us the scumz that RIP is, or face your own wagon tomorrow.

Stop with the threats, seriously. I never said RIP was scummy and I'm not on his wagon, so, why would you expect me to answer that question?

How about you show us something that CDB has done that is scummy?

[Riabi]

How about we get Riabi's version on why RIP is a better lynch than CDB. Because Im not making threats.

Riabi is willing to push a lynch he apparently doesnt even think is scum. and avoiding discussion of it like the palgue.

Holy Misrep batman!!! I never said RIP was a better lynch, I'm not a fan of either wagon, and you can tell this by virtue of the fact that I'm not on either wagon, and by virtue of the fact that I've specifically said I don't like either wagon. Where am I pushing a lynch on someone I don't think is scum? I realize you are a politician, but, it would be better for us all if you'd stop making shit up like one.

I gave you 2 things.

I saw one in your post 2129 but my question was directed at Senator Pisskop.

[Riabi]

misrep is such an annoyingly overused word on this site. Its really sad, to see one resort to such talk.

In this case it's true. You are just straight up mis-representing me and what I've said. What would you like me to call it?

Riabi, by not taking a side and not viocing his opinions wrt the current situation we have, is acting in a manner that does not progress the game, provide content we can use to townread him in the future, or is in any way helping to solve the game.

He's so anti-town right now :v

Here you go again, I've voice my opinion wrt the current situation.

[Riabi]

misrep is such an annoyingly overused word on this site. Its really sad, to see one resort to such talk.

Tbf, Riabi isnt pushing RIP as scum. He is being derp on his vanity wagon, but that's another story

Derp? How is coming into a game in D3 and having a different perspective derp? Is it really so strange that I wouldn't like either wagon? One is based on an assumption that there is no direct evidence for, and the other is based, as far as I can tell, on someone being weird. By D3 there should be more to go on, things like inconsistent thought processes and strange interactions. But before I got here, you all thought that giving scum an extra night free was a good plan, and now you don't have much to go on, and that's causing these awful wagons.

Speaking of inconsistent thought processes, I've thought a bit more about Senator Piss...

How about we get Riabi's version on why RIP is a better lynch than CDB. Because Im not making threats.

Riabi is willing to push a lynch he apparently doesnt even think is scum. and avoiding discussion of it like the palgue.

Riabi, by not taking a side and not viocing his opinions wrt the current situation we have, is acting in a manner that does not progress the game, provide content we can use to townread him in the future, or is in any way helping to solve the game.

He's so anti-town right now :v

So, first he says that I'm willing to push a lynch I don't actually get behind, then he says I'm not willing to voice an opinion. I don't know what's up with this guy, but I really don't like it at all.

VOTE: Senator

[Riabi]

It's derp because deaadline. Time is of the essence. I dont have a problem with the vote per se, (some of Sinsun's post have been p terrible) but you arent injecting any vigour when it's needed most.

So, I should hammer someone I'm not sure is scum because it's deadline? Especially considering that you've already said you intended to hammer?

[Riabi]

The hammer intent is because of the aforementioned deadline, we need a claim, and rapido if we are even going to have a chance to assess it.

Im not saying you should be hammering, just that if you want your pet wagon to grow you need to get busy with the electioneering, or you are wasting your vote.

If my intent isn't to hammer and I don't have enough time/credibility to get a new wagon going... why is my vote wasted? I'm voting for who I think is the scummiest, it's better to vote that person than say "well, both wagons suck, so I'm not gonna vote at all" isn't it?

Im not sure RIP is scum or I would have hammered him. Anyway, how many times have you dropped the hammer on a sure thing? There's always some modicum of doubt there isnt there?

Well, yeah, there's normally SOME doubt. But, not as much as I have about either of the two current wagons. I mean, I get that we need to lynch SOMEONE, but, clearly my help isn't needed to get that done, so, I'm going to put pressure in other places.

[Riabi]

Wow.

Just so u guys know I have a power to use tonight.
I can use it to get a result to help us.
My lynch is fucking lazy. Just look at my wagon. It's a bunch of maybes and policy lynch

Dude, you're about to get hammered, if you've got a power, tell us what it is. It's time to claim...

[Riabi]

can we finally fall off our stuupid horses and lynch something worth lynching?

Like you?

[Riabi]

You like have no backing for this thing you say.

2149. You lie more blatantly than most politicians. That's plenty of reason for me to want to see your neck in a noose.

[Riabi]

VOTE: Klingoncelt

Better than a Senator vote.

At work at the moment but will be back on in a few hours to talk more about things

Forgive me, as coming into this game with so much history has been difficult, but, will you walk me through a TL;DR version of this case when you get home?

[Riabi]

Why did you ask about the KC case and not the Senator case?

Because I have my own case against Sen, I don't need a recap for that one.

[Riabi]

I suppose I must reiterate you don't have the support required to lynch me...

Clearly I'm gaining support. I have enough to start a small wagon now. With some fresh blood coming into the game, maybe we can reveal you for the scum that you are.

Otherwise it'll be CDB for the day.

He was at the point where he was forced to claim, and yet you couldn't get him lynched. Now who doesn't have support for the lynch they are pushing?

As for KC, I might be willing to push her tomorrow. But, I don't like people making stuff up, I'm aiming in your direction.

[Riabi]

He was at the point where he was forced to claim, and yet you couldn't get him lynched.

What is your take on how that wagon fell apart and why?

My guess is that people bought his claim and didn't want to lynch a PR absent a counter-claim. Honestly, I believe his claim too, it's kind of a weird claim to make if untrue, and it does appear that he crumbed it like he said.

[Riabi]

... That said - could you answer the question again based on CDB as who I'm asking about?

Sorry, I got confused... yeah, as for why CDB's wagon fell apart. I dunno there. I never liked the wagon, so I have no personal knowledge as to why it fell apart. I wonder why some people were pushing the wagon so hard when the case was, IMO, so lousy against him.

[Riabi]

Did you read the wagon breakup?
Having an issue with why the wagon existed should not affect your ability to assess how it broke up nor how you feel about the reasoning stated - at least I don't think it should.

I scanned it previously, as it had pretty much broken up by the time I subbed in. I'll go through and read it fully now...

Going through and re-reading it, I still can't tell you much about why it broke up, no one seems to spend a lot of time talking about it. It's almost as if the goal was never to lynch him, but only to get a claim out of him, and once that happened, no one cared anymore. It's weird.

[Riabi]

RIP, Thor help us flip Sen and prove he's scum. The guy is clearly making shit up and now he's trying to take over the conversation by posting over and over and over. He's at best anti-town, and at worst obvscum.

[Riabi]

RIP, Thor help us flip Sen and prove he's scum. The guy is clearly making Smurf up and now he's trying to take over the conversation by posting over and over and over. He's at best anti-town, and at worst obvscum.

Is he making up stuff worse than Titus - a player you're apparently fine with and are voting in agreement with at the moment?
What's he making up?

I don't care for the 'at best anti-town' jargon. That easily applies to a large swathe of this game. I could apply it to my wagon of choice also. So what? Doesn't make them scum.

2134 2137 2149 largely outline my case against him.

Also, I never said I was OK with KC. In fact, I said I'd think more about her, and asked for a TL;DR version of the case against her, and was never give that. So, right now, I don't know how I feel about KC, but to categorize it as "apparently fine" is inaccurate.

[Riabi]

*EBWOP... Crap. you asked about Titus and not KC. I"ve played with Titus before she has a unique style, this looks like her town game to me.

[Riabi]

I will note that Titus is also making stuff up and has *not* claimed it was a mistake. Why aren't you having issues with her?

As to the vanity wagon - hell, I also think you are sidelining. I said as much to you outright when you started pushing it. Is having that belief really evidence of scum? I don't think so.

I am unsure how Klingon got into this conversation, maybe you didn't quote part of my reply?

Maybe you can walk me through where you claim Titus made stuff up?

And as for the Klingon/Titus thing. I apologize, I've never played in a large game before, and tbh, I'm a tad overwhelmed and sometimes having a hard time keeping people straight in my head. I know it's not an excuse, and I'm going to tough it out and not sub out. But I can't promise I won't make that kind of mistake again, only that I'll do my best not to.

[Riabi]

You dunderheads can kill me now and lose the final shot of townkill as well as a conftown if you want.

Conftown???!? HAHAHA. no.

Whatever my play may have your, each and almost every one of your play has been recipricol.

No, I don't see people making up shit like you are, nor do I see anyone since D1 trying to bully the conversation like you.

[Riabi]

holy shit riabi's still trying to pretend he's butthurt over my mistaking him being on RIP.

Thats scummy folks.

I'm not butthurt, butthurt implies I'm upset or annoyed by what you did. I'm not, you lied and I'm calling you out on it, that's all.

[Riabi]

How bad is it that RIP just town slipped...

I don't see any townslips, please explain?

ISO'd Zabing slot aka Riabi and I think that Riabi would also be a decent lynch. Mostly for tunneling Senator ...

Yeah, sorry about that... This is probably my biggest weakness in this game (mafia in general, not just this specific game). Tunneling is what I do, from me, it's alignment neutral. For an example off the top of my head, see this game... http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61563

Kling please prove how what I'm doing here is similar to that other gane

Agreed Kling, do you mind showing a few examples maybe?

No. AA does not need to be replaced. She has been back for 6 days and not a word. Mod has not auto-replaced her already and there's a reason for that. She probably is active in a baddie chat just not here.

I know sinsun changed his vote after this, but I don't like this post at all. Not only is this an association only case, which I've already explained that I don't like, it's based on mod interactions which is just silly. This is a bad case, and it might be scummy.

Trying to lunch the tracker is beyond dumb and scummy

Yes, but, frankly, I don't believe your claim.

So CBd claim to be the guy who mod mentions in my role.
Is that guy bad in the show?
I think scum want to kill a conf town in CBd, call me crazy but idk

Ok, you're crazy. I don't think we should lynch CBD either, there is STILL no case on what he himself has done that is scummy. (If anyone has one, I'd love to hear it.) But there's there's NO WAY he's conf town. Where in the WORLD did you get that idea?

Post 2597 looks pretty damning to me. It does look like RIP lied. He's definitely my strongest scum read so far.

VOTE: RIP

[Riabi]

EBWOP: Also, sorry for the delay. RL has been crazy lately.

[Riabi]

I don't think we should lynch RIP no matter how wrong he is with reads.
Tracking is useful.

*IF* he's the tracker.

[Riabi]

I don't see any townslips, please explain?

Thor already talked about it and disagreed with me. What do you think?

So Thor was right? It was the pisskop thing you were talking about? If that's the case then I agree with Thor. Sen alt-slipped so many times it was really annoying, and confusing. I totally get people making mistakes like that and it just being a mistake.

[Riabi]

Yes I won't. I made it clear.
I don't have any extra info for my reads, they are just that.

No information... 112 pages, and you have NOTHING????!!!

Yes but once I'm conf town ...

That phrase, I don't think it means what you think it means...

Can someone please tell me what sense it makes to be lynching CBD when he's not done anything scummy? Why do we want to kill someone who is/was an easy frame job if they've not done anything to be worried about? That whole wagon worries the hell out of me. Especially considering how little opposition there is to it. Scum is clearly running this game, it seems like they might want this lynch as well. We no longer have the luxury of lyncyhing "for information" now we need to actually lynch scum, or we're going to find ourselves in a world of hurt really fast.

[Riabi]

@ Thor, that vote count is obviously wrong, as it has me on it twice. I'm voting for RIP, I've been voting for RIP, and I'll continue voting for RIP. He's scum, and now that it appears he just admitted it, you should vote him too.

[Riabi]

conf town ...

There you are using that phrase again... Let me make this clear... YOU ARE NOT CONF TOWN.

Someone hang this guy, please.

[Riabi]

I track Nero cain

WTF is this? So you claim you tracked him... WHAT DID HE DO?????

First off thanks for making me a Conf town now.

Stop using that phrase, you clearly don't know what it means. You aren't conf town.

Why are we waiting for me? Go ahead and claim

Who are you asking to claim? You do realize that just general claiming without good info is a bad idea right?

We will have Nero explain where he went and then I decide if we lunch him.

That's how it's gonna go. If he lies then we kill him, if he says truth then we can maybe not kill him today

And how do we know we can trust YOU? I've been, IMO, the scummiest player to date, and now that you aren't giving out info you claim to have, it only looks worse for you.

[Riabi]

CDB flipping town was just a slap in the face.

I don't think that's really true - it was always a 50/50.

Says the guy who pushed on the wagon incessantly until it went over the edge...

[Riabi]

My point is that you're high on my suspect list for pushing what was, in my view, a terrible wagon. It's one thing if you had good reasoning, but, I never felt like there was any good reason to vote CDB.

[Riabi]

Actually - I'd like to hear your value call on CDB's play yesterday and my lurk case on him.
Y'know - since you thought there was "never" a reason to vote him.

Sure, he was lurking, but I don't find lurking to be alignment indicative. I've been burned on that assumption too many times. So, the way I see it, your case amounted to a crappy association with a ham-fisted hider theory, and the (often fallacious) assumption that lurking is indicative of scummy play. How is that in any way a good wagon?

Frankly - the blind defense of that play is kind of weird.

I'm not actually defending his play, it wasn't great. I was (and have been) questioning (what is primarily) your case against him, and questioning the motivation behind it.

[Riabi]

suzunne's story checks out (The lightning rod)

Why does it check out?

Mafia's have scouts not trackers. Tracker is a town role. Plus, in case it was not obvious his reaction proved my claim and his alliance to the town.

Mafia have trackers here, and none of this proves anything.

Town based on Rip not being modkilled.

I'm not sure I follow... How does him not being modkilled make him more likely to be town?

Now, can we finally lynch scum? We were ready to hang RIP yesterday, his play today is weird, and until suzune can explain how her being a lightning rod (assuming she's telling the truth, which for now I can accept) proves anything about anyone's alignment, his slot is still where I'm aiming. Even if we could prove RIP "tracked" her, all that proves is that he's a PR, it is not in anyway alignment indicative. Psyche, I'm sorry you got put into such an obv-scum slot, but, you gotta hang.

Where's the rope? VOTE: psyche

P-edit:

So Suzunes case on my is still awful and I am p disappoint that she didn't respond. I am also p upset that RIP has gotten me to claim and nothing has come out of that. Her "he's a tracker so he's confirmed town" is p horrible and she's using another sites knowledge to prove this?

vote:pv

I am surprised that I am the only one with a scum read here.

I'm a bit surprised that you feel your read is strong enough for a vote, at any rate... Mind explaining that a bit?

[Riabi]

Last post before I'm off to work....

Let's take this step by step.

I believed rip was town.

Positing your initial theory, not all that important, but it's ok.

I knew I could manipulate the results to prove if he was indeed the tracker.
By changing them his result would get messed up.

How does your manipulation of the results prove he's a TOWN tracker?

Judging his reaction would prove his alliance

How? You don't make any objective observations about his.

His massive freakout was very town.

Again... How? What about it was town?

This he was town.

Only if you make some assumptions that have not been (and probably can't be, right now) proven.

This is your theory, it's not proof. It hinges on 1.) You telling the truth about your role and 2.) Your assumption about RIP's reaction. I'm not sure what about his reaction screams "TOWN!!!" to you, but, that's not what I heard. To me, his reaction was one of confusion/frustration, and I don't see how that's says anything about alignment one way or another.

[Riabi]

Again, I have to run to work, but, if you look through my early ISO, I made a case against him days ago. But basically it amounts to him lying, making shit up, and not having a consistent story/claims throughout the game.

[Riabi]

I am town and I think it should be evident from the way RIP claimed, even ignoring that he was force-replaced. It sounds like you're just dealing with some sort of tunneling syndrome.

Then explain why it should be evident? I'll cop to tunneling sometimes, but, I don't see anything that's clearly town in his claim.

Vote: Riabi

Let's lynch some scum today.

And your reasoning behind your naked vote is?????

[Riabi]

Frankly - the blind defense of that play is kind of weird.

I'm not actually defending his play, it wasn't great. I was (and have been) questioning (what is primarily) your case against him, and questioning the motivation behind it.

You're not?
You said there was nothing to find him scummy over...so now you're saying that his play was "bad" but "not scummy at all"? I feel like you're splitting hairs here, no? You're the one saying the attack was bad - shouldn't you be able to defend that stance?

A player can be playing poorly and still be townie, I'm not sure how that's splitting hairs.

I just find having to claim when RIP had nothing on me p ridiculous. Its not pro-town on his part.

but also http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Rumpelstiltskin

Your claiming Rumpelstilskin?

Have you read the game?

I don't think you quite realized that RIP/Psyche is all but confirmed as town. Multiple people can confirm Suzune's role (not saying alignment is confirmed but the role is), and RIP's response to having his action drawn to the lightning rod would make no sense as scum.

???? How does it make no sense as scum? Please explain to me how his reaction is anything but a null-tell?

[Riabi]

I don't think you quite realized that RIP/Psyche is all but confirmed as town. Multiple people can confirm Suzune's role (not saying alignment is confirmed but the role is), and RIP's response to having his action drawn to the lightning rod would make no sense as scum.

???? How does it make no sense as scum? Please explain to me how his reaction is anything but a null-tell?

Presumably, only roles which get results that include a player name in the result would even know the result was redirected. Other roles that don't return a player name as part of the result might know there was something wrong with the result but would not know why. The result RIP got was a tracker type result

and that's a town role

. Now sure, if he were scum fake claiming tracker and also had a role that expects player names, he might have the sense to make the result look like tracker. But we can see the emotional content which says he was clearly shocked by the result and just went off upon taking a closer look. This feels like the reaction is genuine, not fake. If it were fake he would have had to think about making up the answer in which case the emotional content would have to be faked too. I don't think the post timing and content matches up with faking it.

The problem with your post is bolded above. Your entire argument rests on that assumption, which just isn't necessarily true.

[Riabi]

Really, your best case against me is that I'm scum because I'm tunelling (or have tunneled) town? I know I've mentioned that before, but, the fact that I tunnel players is a weak point to my game. It's a bad habit I have. Sometimes, my tunnels are wrong, but, my doing so is NOT alignment indicative. For reference, see this game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=61563

[Riabi]

<snipping the spolier tag for the sake of readability...>

don't feel like organizing. i'll be talking about these in order (I think c: ).

1 cut out the rest of my accusation and didn't even respond to it

Sorry, I actually meant to... My response is that I've given lots of opinions, I think the problem is that I'm not as active as you'd like me to be, but, I'm just not capable of being more active in this thread right now. Sorry. Hardly a scum tell.

2 final post before the end of the day. it's post number 2813 and twilight was announced 3 days later in post number 3015. Where was he during that entire discussion between RIP and everyone else?

Once again, I'm not as active as you'd like me to be... Not much I can do about that.

3 this post is a little bit weird. not necessarily alignment-indicative but it's just kind of weird imo.

If it's not alignment-indicative then why bother to mention it in a post where you are trying to convince others of a player's alignment?

and then there's a bunch of arguments between him and sen where he goes completely off his "scumread" of Sinsun and votes for Sen literally the entire rest of the day because they were arguing. Incidentally, it looks suspiciously a lot like an OMGUS, which is part of the reason why he voted for Sinsun.

I'm pretty sure I voted him because of his lies and making things up. Less of an OMG U Suck and more of a OMG UR Scummy.

4 asks for a recap of Kling case. Doesn't bother to read back, doesn't bother to ISO her. If I'm forced to read over 50 pages of an entire day you should too.
Also, he says a few posts later (post 2228) that he's willing to push her... but he didn't even get a response on why people thought she was scummy. Why was he willing to push someone that he has no idea where the case is coming from? (unless he's wanting to distance himself from his scumbud )

Once again, I'm sorry I'm not as active as you'd like, but please don't misrep me based on my low activity level. No where did I say I didn't read back, no where did I say I didn't ISO her. I did, I just didn't see anything directly scummy. If someone wants to convince me that another player is scum, the onus is on them to make their case. It's not on my to go digging through 100+ pages HOPING I find what they meant. This is especially true considering the fact that I have a limited amount of time to play mafia, and looking for a needle in a haystack doesn't seem like a good use of that time.
Also, I never said I was willing to push Kling, I said I might be. Meaning, I wasn't necessarily town reading her, so it was possible to convince me. But, since, as you pointed out, no one responded to that question, I wasn't convinced.

5 literally doesn't even answer the question AND takes the time to criticize the people who were on the wagon. the next post doesn't really answer much either. ((UGH so I totally thought I quoted the post above this but I was wrong, sozzles friends. Just pretend I quoted his previous post, this quote is still relevant though c: ))

Yeah, I don't know why the wagon broke up. How is that not an answer? I still don't know. I read through it twice, I can't say why it happened, I was confused by its existance in the first place, so maybe it broke up because people came to their senses? I have no flipping clue.

6 talks about Kling instead of Titus, I don't know what that means but I just feel like mentioning his thoughts on her. Again, willing to push her, but he has no opinion on her.

I'm pretty sure I explained this elsewhere, but I've never played a game of this size, and that plus the fact that I came in with so much history already in place means that I got a few people mixed up in my head. I've worked to correct this, and by and large, I'm better at it now (having fewer people in the game helps too).

7 is a GREAT post from Thor which... Riabi never responded to...

What was there to respond to? Who is he to tell me what my theories are or should be? I thought that the questions in that post weren't really worth answering.

[Riabi]

The thing here isn't that you're inactive. You weren't online for 3 days during a crucial point in time, you put a vote on RIP and then left. What is that?

This doesn't make any sense you say "The problem isn't that you're inactive, the problem is that you weren't here..." What the hell is the difference? I wasn't here, no, I wasn't on the site, I was busy with RL.

4 asks for a recap of Kling case. Doesn't bother to read back, doesn't bother to ISO her. If I'm forced to read over 50 pages of an entire day you should too.
Also, he says a few posts later (post 2228) that he's willing to push her... but he didn't even get a response on why people thought she was scummy. Why was he willing to push someone that he has no idea where the case is coming from? (unless he's wanting to distance himself from his scumbud )

Once again, I'm sorry I'm not as active as you'd like, but please don't misrep me based on my low activity level. No where did I say I didn't read back, no where did I say I didn't ISO her. I did, I just didn't see anything directly scummy. If someone wants to convince me that another player is scum, the onus is on them to make their case. It's not on my to go digging through 100+ pages HOPING I find what they meant. This is especially true considering the fact that I have a limited amount of time to play mafia, and looking for a needle in a haystack doesn't seem like a good use of that time.
Also, I never said I was willing to push Kling, I said I might be. Meaning, I wasn't necessarily town reading her, so it was possible to convince me. But, since, as you pointed out, no one responded to that question, I wasn't convinced.

Where did activity come in? Stop bringing that up. I said absolutely nothing about activity here, so I really don't understand why you're so bent on trying to give me that excuse. Seriously have no idea why you brought that up. As for the "needle in a haystack," obviously everyone has a limited time to play mafia, no one is online at all hours of the day Doesn't excuse the fact that you're talking about pushing someone that you don't even know the case on them.

I wanted someone to outline the case for me because I couldn't find why she's scummy, and thought it possible that I'd missed something. Is that really so hard to understand? Have you never asked someone to recap a case for you? I never said I was willing to push her, I said I was willing to consider it, provided someone had a case. But, as no one has yet presented one to me, nothing has changed.

5 literally doesn't even answer the question AND takes the time to criticize the people who were on the wagon. the next post doesn't really answer much either. ((UGH so I totally thought I quoted the post above this but I was wrong, sozzles friends. Just pretend I quoted his previous post, this quote is still relevant though c: ))

Yeah, I don't know why the wagon broke up. How is that not an answer? I still don't know. I read through it twice, I can't say why it happened, I was confused by its existance in the first place, so maybe it broke up because people came to their senses? I have no flipping clue.

This is about your excuse as to why you don't know. "I never liked the wagon, so I have no personal knowledge as to why it fell apart." So because you don't like it, you don't know what to think about it? You don't have any opinions on who got off in a scummy way? No one that looks like they're acting with their mafia buds to get someone else lynched? Nothing?

Why must I have an opinion of every thing that happens in a game? Why should I be expected to explain the disappearance of something I didn't understand the existence of in the first place? I really don't understand your questions here.

6 talks about Kling instead of Titus, I don't know what that means but I just feel like mentioning his thoughts on her. Again, willing to push her, but he has no opinion on her.

I'm pretty sure I explained this elsewhere, but I've never played a game of this size, and that plus the fact that I came in with so much history already in place means that I got a few people mixed up in my head. I've worked to correct this, and by and large, I'm better at it now (having fewer people in the game helps too).

Okay but you didn't even address my issue with you. My issue wasn't the Kling/Titus mixup, my issue is still you willing to push Kling when you didn't know anything about her, and now you still don't know anything about her. Are you sure you ISO'd her? Because if you have you should have an opinion by now.

Once again I never said I was willing to push her, only that I was willing to consider it. I've ISO'd her, I find her null right now. If you want me to see her as scummy, tell me why you think she's scummy. Why is that hard?

7 is a GREAT post from Thor which... Riabi never responded to...

What was there to respond to? Who is he to tell me what my theories are or should be? I thought that the questions in that post weren't really worth answering.

This is just... no. Like I said before, if you have a problem with Thor telling you what you should think, don't tell me what I should think because I don't care about your "i'm inactive XDDDD" crap. My problem is not your inactivity. I'm addressing that in a post. You should have made a post addressing that to Thor. In the very least you should have at least acknowledged that the post existed. But nope, you disappeared for 100 posts and pushed for your Senator lynch. That's all you did. Boy I sure hope that alleviated Thor's feelings about you!
This last quote here makes me even more comfortable with my vote. There's absolutely no reason to avoid responding to someone that says "Convince me you're town."

Except that I see no reason to bother with a statement like that. I mean, what do you expect from someone at that point? Jump up and down and scream "HEY THOR!!!! I"M TOWN!!! SEEE????"? How exactly does someone convince someone else of their town alignment in your mind? No, there's no reason to respond to that statement, and this is, IMO especially true if the accused is, in fact, town.

[Riabi]

VOTE: ika

Ika's dodging which is 100% his scum meta.

Yeah, agreed. Anyone who has played with him knows his meta, I'd suspect.

VOTE: ika

[Riabi]

Vote: St Augustine the Hermit

Could also still do Pere, frankly.

While I don't necessarily disagree, why?

VOTE: Riabi

There are 5 people I don't want to lynch because I believe them to be town.
Riabi's top suspects (psyche, and questioning Suzanne) are both on that list.

This was the best I could find within the most recent two days. He also voted Kling and then unvoted her shortly after. (I'm assuming these 5 people are still psyche, suzune, me, him, and thor)

I might be a little biased because of my previous suspicion but I sure do think this vote is a coincidence I can go off of.

Vote: Riabi

So... you're sheeping the dead guy because he's dead? Is that a good summation of your case? If that's not it, please explain because I don't understand it.

[Riabi]

Ewww...anyone who is scum with ika or extensively seen scum ika would know he'd self-hammer at L-1. The fact Suisin wanted hammer to "clear" herself is a null tell as scum, she'd know it to be totally illusory. I also think but do not know that ika's tendency to hammer at L minus 1 is established.

Second, a mass claim just helps scum know what they can and cannot claim. If we do a massclaim over my objections, we need to go PR and VT, then claim roles.

I've not been in that many games on this site, and I'm aware of ika's tendency to hammer at L-1. It really doesn't take much of a meta read on him to see that.

Also, agreed on the massclaim, that's just hanging up the NK targets for scum.

[Riabi]

Vote: St Augustine the Hermit

Could also still do Pere, frankly.

While I don't necessarily disagree, why?

Pere for reasons stated yesterday.
St. Augustine because, looking at the wagon, it's the first vote that feels buss-y to me besides Psyche's and I am mildly buying into the idea Narn checked him so rule him out. Sinsum's vote is also a bit iffy, but I consider the St. Augustine slot to be overall more ecchy.

Sorry I wasn't clear, I was asking more about the St. A vote than Pere. That said, your case is, IMO, pretty awful. When the primary part of a case on Day 6 involves the word "feels", it kinda puts me on edge. I like hard evidence, not got reads, especially almost a week into the game.

[Riabi]

Personally I believe you're coming off as scum just trying to screw with everyone's faith in a confirmed cop.

This is now the second person you've started to scumread the moment that they question suzune's alignment (first was me). You don't seem to accept the possibility that if she is lightning rod, she might also be scum. Why is this? Do you have some hard evidence that you aren't sharing?

[Riabi]

this is such a pointless discussion
is suzune anywhere close to being lynched?
so why is it sooo important that we all believe she's confirmed town right now?

A couple reasons... 1.) If she's actually CONFIRMED town, then that helps a lot when trying to do POE pools and such to find scum. This should be obvious, why wouldn't you, as town, want to know who the other CONFIRMED town players were?
2.) If she's not conf-town, then maybe she's scum with a PR, wouldn't we want to make her a lynch target right now in that case?

For the record, I'm not, nor have I ever been, arguing that she's scum. I'm not sure of her alignment, and that worries me a bit. But what worries me more is people talking like she's conf-town when she's absolutely not.

[Riabi]

PV, I have a huge problem with your four "confirmed town" theory and your wanting a massclaim. If you have four confirmed town and four scum in a pool, town should be at or near autowin, thus mass claim is not necessary. Yet, you're pushing mass claim hard.

I'd like to see your math how 8 town and 4 scum is a "near autowin".

We need 4 days of straight scumlynches. One slipup extends the game that much longer, 2 and we lose?

First, how are you confident this is 4 scum alive?

It's a fact.

A fact? How do you know this? What evidence to you have to bring about such a level of certainty?

1. There is nothing stopping you or others from doing this if other people still suspect, or claim to suspect, her.

No, there's nothing stopping someone from assuming she's town in a POE list, but, having actual confirmation makes said list a LOT more meaningful, don't you think?

2. Yes - and that nobody is pushing that should tell you something.

No one is pushing what? Titus has raised similar questions to me about it.

And, yeah, there's a lot of opinion here, I was just mostly answering psyche's question.

[Riabi]

A fact? How do you know this? What evidence to you have to bring about such a level of certainty?

A massclaim, are you for or against it?

So, not only do you blatantly avoid answering my question, you instead ask me a question, the answer to which I've already given clearly.

[Riabi]

Maybe you could go more in-depth on you townread on Klingon, Dave, and Riabi.

Maybe you could go more in-depth about why you are being so damned cagey? If you have info that makes you certain of things like how many scum there are in this game, how does it not behoove us for you to share it?

[Riabi]

because massclaim

Yeah, so we get it, you support a massclaim, so what? How about you explain why you do, since you've literally given zero reasons for it since you've joined the game.

[Riabi]

You mean, if I am certain there are 4 scum left, why have I not shared that fact?

I think I have.

Quite a few times.

No, I mean, what makes you so certain?

[Riabi]

I built a mafia-playing AI whose sole job is to scumhunt using all of the information I gave it. Key indicators fed to it resulted in it telling me there are, with 99.9999% accuracy, 4 non-town roles in the game.

Or maybe secret information.

Go with the robot.

Yeah yeah, you've said it was secret information... and I'm trying to figure out why you won't share this info but instead you'd rather rolefish. To be frank, you're on my suspect list, and, I don't trust you. You keep making all of these readslists that assume this secret info, but for all we know it could be (intentionally?) misleading bullshit.

[Riabi]

Riabli, my concern is how PerV has this secret info. How could he mechanically?

This is a valid concern as well.

Who are your top 4 scummiest players?

Nope, not happening... I'm not answering your questions till you answer mine.

[Riabi]

Why won't you answer our questions?

Because he won't - read him from that refusal and move on. It will make for a shorter thread.

You seem upset that Titus asked... why? Do you really care about thread length at this point?

[Riabi]

This desperate push for massclaim

yeah i am literally pulling my hair out of my head about it as we speak

---

...
let's massclaim

massclaim! massclaim! massclaim!

i also have secret information
but i'll only share it if we massclaim

just relax for a moment
and consent to massclaim

because massclaim

[Riabi]

The questions "Who are your top 4 scumreads?" is not something you can answer?

I never said that. I said I'm not willing to until you answer mine.

[Riabi]

is that really what desperation means to you

It's pretty much all you've talked about today, and you brought it up unprompted in 5 posts in a row. How else are we supposed to read it?

if we massclaimed, then you'd know for sure whether it's intentionally misleading bullshit

it's really that simple, dude

Yep, because no one has ever lied in the history of massclaiming. What kind of shit is that you're smoking over there?

Upon further reflection, I do agree with Thor on one thing -

...read him from that refusal and move on...

So with that...

VOTE: PeregrineV

[Riabi]

Pere, here is perhaps a better explanation of my issue with you today. I'm desperately trying to figure out this game, and I feel like we as town need all the information we can get that doesn't benefit scum. OTOH, here you are, presumably holding some secret piece of info (how you know the exact number of scum in this game) but, then you want us all to massclaim. Scum already know exactly how many of them there are (unless they can't count, which is unlikely), but they probably don't know everyone's roles. I don't see how your behavior/plan benefits anyone other than scum, and they're already winning this game, so why should we help them?

[Riabi]

the reason you're against massclaiming is because you're afraid someone will lie?
don't you find that a little silly

Man, what is it with people putting words in my mouth this game. In addition to the post I just dropped, I'll point you to 3443.

It's pretty much all you've talked about today, and you brought it up unprompted in 5 posts in a row. How else are we supposed to read it?

tell me what you think desperate means

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/desperate

Now, tell me why you think that question has anything to do with this game.

[Riabi]

They did, eventually, after a day+ and with no clear connection to your vote.
Except maybe Riabli. I'd hand you that one.

Bingo. Only person who has a connection is also scummy. We are killing 2 birds with 1 stone here.

Wait... since when does voting someone who is playing into their strong and firmly established scum meta make someone scummy?

[Riabi]

Pere, here is perhaps a better explanation of my issue with you today. I'm desperately trying to figure out this game, and I feel like we as town need all the information we can get that doesn't benefit scum. OTOH, here you are, presumably holding some secret piece of info (how you know the exact number of scum in this game) but, then you want us all to massclaim. Scum already know exactly how many of them there are (unless they can't count, which is unlikely), but they probably don't know everyone's roles. I don't see how your behavior/plan benefits anyone other than scum, and they're already winning this game, so why should we help them?

A massclaim will likely lockdown liars to whatever role they claimed. And maybe they will even be caught out.

Maybe, but, will that be enough to win the game? We can't say. What we CAN say though, is that scum will have their pick of the litter when it comes time to choose an NK. So how does that help town again?

[Riabi]

We can say.

There are 6 town targets as we speak. There are 4 scum targets, who wont shoot themselves. There are 2 unknown, which I am thinking we can clear 1-2. Meaning all the scum will be caught.

So, walk me through

YOUR

math about how massclaim will give scum so many more options.

I don't have any "math" because "math" requires dealing with known numbers, and that's the issue, we don't have any known numbers. Sure, I acknowledge that you claim to have known numbers, but that doesn't really help any of the rest of us.

[Riabi]

Then argue there are 3 scum, and thus 3 unknown.

Or argue there are 5 scum, and thus only one unknown.

Having no opinion on the number of scum remaining does not really point towards you "trying to figure out the game".

I didn't say I have no opinion, you are likely right about 4, what I'm questioning is your level of confidence. And I'm questioning why you're using circular logic to defend your confidence. (We should massclaim because we have exactly 4 scum, I know we have 4 scum based on information that will come out if we massclaim). And I'm questioning why you're holding back on information that would appear to help town.

I don't have any "math" because "math" requires dealing with known numbers, and that's the issue, we don't have any known numbers. Sure, I acknowledge that you claim to have known numbers, but that doesn't really help any of the rest of us.

Caught in a lie. That or stupidity. Math is about solving unknown numbers, hence this entire section of math called Algebra that deals with variables and branches off to much more complicated math to solve for unknown numbers.

Ask yourself a question... Why would Riabi put the word math in quotes like that if he was then going to use it in a slightly different manner than the word might be traditionally used?

[Riabi]

Yeah, now you're really pulling shit out of your ass, now we have 6 conftown??!??!?

[Riabi]

Proof? Evidence? Oh wait... let me guess, that's secret info?

[Riabi]

Your level of confidence in your case is COMPLETELY unjustified based on the evidence you've presented. As far as I'm concerned, there is nothing more for us to discuss until you explain WHY you are so confident.

[Riabi]

Claims =/= confirmed. I'll accept gumball being cleared by the cop. Suzune isn't confirmed as town by any means, and I'm accepting her claim as LB. Maybe sinsun CAN confirm himself, but he hasn't yet. Thor's claim is weird, and in no way confirmed as town.

You have a bunch of "maybe"s. You even have a few "probably"s, but, in that list, you have at best one CONFIRMED town.

[Riabi]

Yet, to me they are confirmed. You can argue they are scummy, but you also need to argue they are scummier than the remaining 5.

I'm not arguing that they are scummy, I'm arguing against the word "confirmed" which means that there is some evidence in the game that shows that they are absolutely without question town. With most of the people on your list, there is at least some chance that you are wrong about them, which means they aren't confirmed. I agree with you that if 1.) the 6 people you listed are conf-town and 2.) there are indeed, exactly 4 scum left, then we should massclaim. But since we don't have certainty on either of those, a massclaim seems like a devastating NK waiting to happen.

[Riabi]

Yet, to me they are confirmed. You can argue they are scummy, but you also need to argue they are scummier than the remaining 5.

I'm not arguing that they are scummy, I'm arguing against the word "confirmed" which means that there is some evidence in the game that shows that they are absolutely without question town. With most of the people on your list, there is at least some chance that you are wrong about them, which means they aren't confirmed. I agree with you that if 1.) the 6 people you listed are conf-town and 2.) there are indeed, exactly 4 scum left, then we should massclaim. But since we don't have certainty on either of those, a massclaim seems like a devastating NK waiting to happen.

Of the remaining players, (besides yourself, of course), which NK would be the most devastating?

I don't know. My point was that if we all massclaim, we'd be letting scum know the remaining PRs were, and we can't really afford to lose what few PRs we (probably) have left.

[Riabi]

He's talking shit.

This is a 21-player game. With a 3:1 Town/Scum ratio, that makes for 5, maybe 6 Scum total.

The lack of extra NKs tells us that the possible 6th Scum isn't 3rd Party.

The fairly weak flipped and crumbed Town roles suggest that the possible 6th Scum is more likely a 16th Town.

1 Scum is dead.

There are only 4 Scum possible.

(I bet Sinsun's one of 'em.)

This is all well and good (and probably correct) but even you leave room for error, you say that the 6th scum is

likely

actually a townie. It is likely that there are 4 scum left, but it's not "fact."

[Riabi]

You have a bunch of "maybe"s. You even have a few "probably"s, but, in that list, you have at best one CONFIRMED town.

you really need to learn how to live in a world of mild ambiguity

Ummm... what? It's the fact that things are really more ambiguous than Pere is claiming that I'm arguing. So what are you saying?

[Riabi]

pere knows that things are that ambiguous
you're the one who seems to be paralyzed by that ambiguity
yes, we can't be 100% that players like me are town, but is that really a big deal??

It it when you're making assumptions based on that yeah. For example, if you claim that there are exactly 4 scum in this game, and you know this for a fact, and do all your planning around said "fact", and then, it turns out there are 5 scum because of that one scenario you didn't think was very likely... then we're fucked as town. Nuance is important, and any planning we do as town should reflect the fact that we don't actually KNOW very much right now.

[Riabi]

Of the remaining players, (besides yourself, of course), which NK would be the most devastating?

Thinking about this further, and touching on what Titus said...

It appears likely that we have a doctor, or some role that protects people in some way. If we don't, then Suzune is lying about being a Lightning Bolt. Otherwise, the kill that was almost certainly targetted for someone that night would have killed her. So, the most devastating NK in my mind would be the doctor. Obviously, I don't know who that player is, but, do you really think that having that role outed and putting a big red bulls-eye on their forhead is a good thing for town?

[Riabi]

Proof? Evidence? Oh wait... let me guess, that's secret info?

there is very little secret info in this game. In fact the town would kill for a little secret information. In my question for you is why, you cannot see the information based on what has already been played. Many roles have done things and those roles would be as good as confirmed, plus losing the doctor gave us anothe pool. Why are you so desperate to shed discord?

I'm not trying to shed discord, I'm trying to not let Pere spread false assumptions. Many roles have done things that add to levels of likelyhood, but not certainty. Why is this so hard to understand.

Also, what the hell are you talking about with losing the doctor? While I agree that there is likely a doctor or some other similar role in this game, we've not lost him or her. In a game where things are this close, don't we want to do everything we can to protect said role?

[Riabi]

you are never going to know the exact number of anything in this game until it is over. Therefore, we need to play with a safe assumption. Having four or five scum in a game this size is balanced, and the traditional build. One has to assume some things otherwise, we will go around and around in circles all day. If we suspect everyone all the time then the mafia win.

I have zero issue with assuming there are almost certainly 4 or 5 scum left alive in this game. What I object to is Pere stating that he knows for a FACT that there are EXACTLY 4. Why do so many people in this game seem to have such a difficult time seeing the difference between those two things?

Consider for a minute that we are six days in. There are twelve people playing this game. Assuming that this game started with 5 mafiam then we are currently sitting on a 8-4 split. And again assuming there are no third party of any kind. If we lynch a townie today 7-4 and the mafia will kill on tonight 6-4. At that point we can no longer afford to make a mistake. So we are one day from lylo assuming that we fail here. It is not the worst position for the town to be when thinking of calling a mass claim.

While I myself are usually against them. I cannot deny that, we are always going around in circles in this game. The mafia is winning in that regard because the townies have to rehash and rehash the game day in and day out.

Consider for a minute that if your claim of LB is correct (which I'm willing to grant), then we can assume that there is likely a protective role in this game (or you'd be dead). If we point out that role today, they may not be around to protect someone who needs it if we really do end up in LYLO or MYLO.

[Riabi]

i think i will just really subtly breadcrumb my info over the course of today

Yep, that's a great idea. That way, if you die, we won't be able to say for sure what your info was, instead we'll be able to argue and fight about what you really meant...

[Riabi]

i will be explicit about my info if we massclaim

Despite the fact that I asked you, you never did tell me why you think a massclaim is a good idea. Aren't you worried about it outing a protective role?

[Riabi]

sinsun IS town.

Take that as a fact.

How do we accept this as fact? "Because Pere told us so" seems to be the only reason, and that's not enough. Stop with the bullshit dude, if you have info, share it, otherwise stop trying to lead town down your misguided path.

[Riabi]

if we don't massclaim, that is also cool

Why are you ignoring my direct question? Is there something in your role PM that states that anyone playing your role must be incorrigible?

[Riabi]

if we don't massclaim, that is also cool

... Is there something in your role PM that states that anyone playing your role must be incorrigible?

Wait I think I figured it out... you're Quark, aren't you?

[Riabi]

if we don't massclaim, that is also cool

Why are you ignoring my direct question? Is there something in your role PM that states that anyone playing your role must be incorrigible?

your questions are wrong

Oh, explain what is wrong about... Why do you think we should massclaim?

Are you suggesting that you DON'T support one?

[Riabi]

Claim: Lwaxana Troi

Gene Rodenberry's wife who played a character on DS9.

When I'm not neighborizing, I'm also an Oracle. I can ask game setup related questions, but cannot ask who is mafia and who is town. I could, for example, ask "Is there a town lightning rod in the game?", or "Is there a town conditional tracker in the game?"

Popcorn to Titus.

Do you have a limit in the number of questions you can ask?

[Riabi]

Just like it was real in HU2 right? You fake claimed question asker as gunsmith. Your claim was fake there. I don't believe you.

Oh I have popcorn. *eats it*

Link please?

[Riabi]

Anyway, I wont fully claim, just name claim and see if people can figure out my role. I am

Vedek Winn

. Waiting on others to follow suit at least with the name claim if nothing else!

I think it's been shown pretty clearly that a role's name is pretty much useless for telling roles. First off, because in order for that to work, players would have to have knowledge of the series, and Monkeyman stated pretty clearly that such knowledge isn't necessary. Also, when we have a CONFRIMED Bashir who is not the doctor, I think we can safely assume that we can glean no game-relevant info from one's name.

[Riabi]

I did not find that my abilities did not fit the character, I was playing though.

Sure, and the same can be said about some of the other dead characters (Jake Sisko, Odo and Kira come to mind). BUT, my point is that clearly it's not a reliable tell. If it were, then Bashir would clearly be a doctor.

[Riabi]

That's a great question that can be answered after the massclaim. You can go next instead of Titus you you'd like.
...

@Riabi

- since you are here....

Yeah, I figured my slience on this would have given you your answer, but I'm still not convinced that a massclaim isn't a COLOSSALLY stupid idea. I'll wait to claim.

[Riabi]

Your problem is the doctor being outed, right? So unless you're the doctor, which I highly doubt, you should have no problem claiming.

My issue with a massclaim is the doctor being outed. My reason for not claiming yet is that I'm not willing to be the second one to jump over the cliff. I'm not going to lead the town down what I think is a dangerous path. I won't be the only person to not claim, if it comes to that, but right now, this isn't a massclaim, right now this is just a crazy guy acting rashly.

[Riabi]

I have already sorta claimed. I could claim again if it makes you feel better?

Well, I think a massclaim would require you claiming your "second power". But you doing it isn't going to change my mind, it's going to take a lot more players than that.

Also, I've got work tonight, so I probably wont be on much more today.

[Riabi]

Psyche. Imagine for a moment that our theory of 4 remaining scum is wrong and there is in fact 5. Now look at the number of players left, 12. If we mislynch today and they kill tonight and there is 5 left instead of 4, they win.
...
Not only that, but isntead of at least trying to think that the cop might have done something useful for us, she and Riabi are trying to place doubt in all of the cop's actions. Not even for a second thinking the cop got the right reads.

I love this quote... in the first part, you do a wonderful job of summarizing the argument I've been trying to make all day. Then, in the second part, you try to call me scummy for making that argument.

[Riabi]

Now then. Let's lynch Titus-scum who has been trying to cause doubt in the cop reads constantly (along with Riabi) when there is no possible way that this game can be balanced and have reads messed with, because the messed reads would have been the miller who is now dead.

I won't speak for Titus, but I'm not actually trying to cast doubt on the cop reads. I'm just trying to suggest that we can't be 100% certain of them right now. I pointed out that you made a good case for why in your last post, and you seem to have ignored that. I agree that most of the players that people are calling "conftown" are PROBABLY town. I just want people to start using the words for what they mean.

I know we'd all like to have a few actual conf-town players in this game, it would make it easier to figure it out, but right now, we just don't.

[Riabi]

ive explained my titus reads tons of times

You've explained that you think she's scum because you think I'm scum and we agree that people in the game should be careful about the words they use... Has she actually done anything scummy?

[Riabi]

Then the mod of that game does not know how roles work. Treestump = still alive in game without ability to affect of be affected by anyone. To have a mafia treestump technically makes the game unwinnable by town because the mafia treestump can NEVER die. Which means town would NEVER be able to eliminate the full mafia team. Which means the mod has to make an exception to the rules or it'd be a stand-still game.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Tree_Stump

The wiki is pretty clear on this issue. You claim Titus and I are trying to sow discord, but you're the one spouting off verifiably false arguments as factual.