Micro 474: Over the Garden Wall Mafia (GAME OVER)

[Lia]

Vote: Pie

By the way, I think we should be reluctant to put anyone to L-1 until we're ready to lynch as I suspect there may be more voting shenanigans going on in the game.

[Lia]

hmmm, with this recruit mechanic, doesn't this mean i'm totes conftown since no one in their right mind would recruit me?

Nope. It means you're confscum for just that reason, but then ...

[Lia]

Unvote

I'm seeing the case on MS but it's not enough to push for a lynch there yet. I'm getting a couple of twinges about others but nothing worth mentioning yet as I don't know them well enough to know whether it's significant.

[Lia]

All I've really got so far is a scum read on MS and possibly on Honey bee. I'm going to give Nacho and Alchemist a tentative town read for now for the point that Nacho raised on that, and that Alch queried. They both feel town for that. Everything else seems to be just sparring based on meta. Still getting a slight twinge about Pie from her early posts but can't quite put my finger on it.

Preview edit:

I'm going to let go of whatevers bothering me about pie. Rest of her play doesn't really support it. VOTE: lia because I don't my vote idle and most of the active players aren't troubling me. Did you not have anyone better you wanted to vote?

My vote would be on MS but I don't want to put him at L-1 yet which is why I'm not voting. Do you have any scum reads yet? Your read on Pie seems similar to mine. Is that from a meta read or just from this thread?

[Lia]

I was looking back over the thread while writing my post so didn't see that post till I previewed before submitting.

[Lia]

nah, I don't know pie's meta, so from the thread. My reads are varying from townie feeling to slightly scumish.

Which players are you finding slightly scummish?

elaborate on both of these? (in MS' case, I don't disagree, but I want to know your specific reasoning)

I wish I could but they're both gut reads really. With MS he just doesn't seem as comfortable as I've seen him elsewhere, and post 21 felt a bit odd as I'd assumed his vote in 14 was just rvs. It's not strong but it's the best I've got so far. With Honey bee it's even weaker but it started with 48; I don't see how anyone could get a townread on MS at that point and the explanation in 50 wasn't really very convincing.

@ Doduo:

Can you tell me which posts are by Marquis please?

[Lia]

I'm feeling a bit better about MS now compared to Doduo.

@ Doduo:

Can you tell me which posts are by Marquis please?

Vote: Doduo

[Lia]

Please, do share with the class what you find townie about MS's latest posts.

I'm not townreading him. I'm still ok with lynching him but I just think you've got a higher chance of flipping scum than he has.

I have some markers for what I look for in Marquis' scum game and I haven't been seeing them here, although I haven't thought anything specific they did was extremely town. notsci's posting so far is not telling either way (I have no intention of town reading him solely bc "engagement = town"). I still haven't minded their posts nor do I think "their read on me" is a good reason for scum reading them.

Is there a way of telling which posts come from one and which from the other? I'm guessing the majority are ns but it's not clear.

[Lia]

this seemed to imply you were open to the possibility of Gaiden being scum. I'm asking how this makes sense when you had just said he was "conftown" - it felt more like you were just agreeing for the sake of it as opposed to actually believing it

I don't think it implied that. It looked like he was agreeing with Alchemist that Gaiden was posting more but not that it meant he was scum.

marquis uses all lowercase (except for ALLCAPS)
there are some exceptions to this but you can usually tell based on the timestamps

Marquis was using some capitalization in the last game we were both in. But I think I've worked it out now.

Is this a fact? Because I disagree, I've seen him use uppercase more often, and when he goes supreme modding mode, his grammar is perfect. I have the belief that notty is the one using nocaps. They'd normally sign with squawk and quack, but I don't know why they aren't doing that here.

Tinfoil theory says that they are trying to obfuscate their posts from whichever heads.

This is the impression I was getting too.

[Lia]

MS is looking more town from 348. I'm still not sure about Pie. No read on Gaiden or AD and my other reads haven't changed.

[Lia]

I'm awake now and I'll be around for just over one and a half hours before I have to go out to a meeting. I'm just going to check votes to see if I need to switch.

[Lia]

Vote: Metal Sonic

[Lia]

I only see 3 votes on me. It takes 6 to lynch me today.

[Lia]

Why, Nacho?

[Lia]

I'd be up for a Honey bee lynch but I don't think there are enough of us around to manage it.

[Lia]

I'm going out now and won't be back before the deadline.

[Lia]

@ Honey bee:

Why did you think the kill was weird?

Vote: Doduo

[Lia]

@Lia, why do you think Doduo is scum?

It started off as a pressure vote in 308 because I couldn't get a clear read on them and they were ignoring requests from me and others to help by identifying their posts. They continued to be unhelpful with that. I agreed with MS about them in 355 because he put into words what I was already thinking. They only started attacking me after this. It looks like they, or one of them, were catching up on page 16 then in 400 they started pushing for my lynch seemingly for the sole reason that I thought that they were making it difficult to read them.

[Lia]

in general, I don't like the way Lia handled the MS wagon.

she kept saying she was OK with lynching him and that she was seeing the case on him, but then kept searching for reasons to stay off the wagon. when she *did* have a concrete reason for MS being town (356), she did nothing to convince other people of it or actually explain why she thought it was town. I don't think she really cared about sorting MS here - it looked more like was just preparing to look better after MS flipped town.

Only

once

did I say I was still ok with lynching MS after my scumread on him weakened and that was in 334, which was before I got a townread on him from 348, so to claim that I kept saying that is wrong. The claim that I kept searching for reasons to stay off the wagon is also wrong. My reason, that I didn't want to put him at L-1, remained the same while I was still scumreading him. If you'd wanted to know why I thought 348 was town you could have asked me but you didn't.

her agreeing with the angle that Doduo is deliberately obfuscating heads is one thing that specifically makes me think this - I don't really think someone would actually find smth like that convincing.

I wasn't "convinced" by that because I was already thinking that due to their refusal to clarify who was posting what.

Doduo is town bc of Marquis' play. I alluded to this earlier, but when Marquis is scum he usually relies on mass amounts of ATE and playing up how "emotional/genuine" he is in order to make ppl not realize he's not actually game solving. this isn't what he's doing here. his posting at DL is another thing that made me think he was likely town - his thoughts on Lia matched mine as I was reading through it, and his push on Nacho made sense even though I disagree with it.

Can you summarise their thoughts on me then please because I'm not seeing any more than I mentioned in my previous post. I'll come back to the bit about Nacho later.

[Lia]

More voting shenanigans going on with this game? What made you think this?

(the reason I'm asking is because I think your answer could possibly be decently town, if you don't remember your theory from this long ago that works too)

It was the use of the words "by default" in the voting rules. We've seen one example of a change in requirements but there may be others. Kagami put a role that affected voting in Micro 415 so I could see that there might be something similar here.

I don't understand this/see the point behind whatever this was.

There wasn't a point. I was just jokingly accusing him of WIFOM.

I don't like this approach to the MS wagon in general because 1) it was her approach to the Metal Sonic wagon for pretty much the entire game IIRC and 2) it's an approach with a good amount of scum intent behind it in that you are encouraging the lynch of a townie but also not voting on the wagon and risking getting criticized for jumping on the lynch.

I never had a strong enough reason to put him at L-1 and he remained on three votes most of the Day so I never had occasion to vote him before my attention turned elsewhere.

Hmmmm.
The explanation for her read on Metal Sonic (namely, "doesn't seem comfortable" and "i thought his vote was rvs but it wasn't") are weak as hell and she's aware of them being weak as hell, so Honey Bee having a townread on Metal Sonic being so unacceptable that she's automatically a scumread because of it is strange.

I wouldn't have had a problem with a null read, but the town read seemed off so I wondered if there was either a connection there or an early attempt to buddy.

[Lia]

Lia, who would you have recruited?

I think I might have gone for Alchemist as being a good player but not one of the obvious ones. Although an imp in me says Gaiden would be so unlikely a choice as to be worth the risk of having someone who would probably be lynched or investigated.

[Lia]

except this is quite obviously not why they were pushing for your lynch. first off, both Marquis and notsci had said (416/426) that it was not about you pushing this but specifically the *way* in which you did it - that it felt more like you were just attempting to follow along with what MS was saying as opposed to pushing it yourself. second, Marquis cited (430) 356 as a reason for pushing you as scum - likely for the same reason I am (that it didn't feel like you *actually* wanted to do anything to shut down the pressure on MS here).

In 232 I asked Doduo for information. They ignored me completely. I repeated that in 308 when I moved my vote to them from MS. At this point it was as much a pressure vote as anything else. They again ignored my request. And I wasn't the only one that was asking. Why would they not want to be readable if they were town? That's why I agreed with MS's comment in 349, because it said what I was already thinking. They did refer to the subject in 384 and 386 but what they said didn't help at all. And then in 400 they started pushing for my lynch.

As far as I can see they want to lynch me purely because I wanted to get a read on them and thought they were being obstructive. My agreement with MS's comment was just an excuse for them. They haven't given any other reason. As for 430, they just quoted two of my posts and said I was scum. That added nothing to their case at all.

[Lia]

the entire point is that over the course of the game you did a lot to further the MS lynch, but didn't do anything to stop it once you supposedly had a town read on him

it doesn't matter why, specifically, you were reading 348 as town (although I can't say I'd mind if you justified it). what I'm saying is that, sans saying 348 was town, there was no further elaboration beyond that re: *why*, specifically, it was town.

fully explaining why you're town reading someone is a natural first step in attempting to push a town read/derail a lynch, but you didn't do this - it felt more like you were just giving a bullshit throwaway reason for MS being town in order to look better after he flipped

Part of the reason for not elaborating on it was because it was a gut read. The post felt town. The rest was due to lack of time. But there is good stuff in that post. What do you think about what MS said about Doduo there?

what I was saying is that I would not expect anyone to actually think this is a good argument

I could break down specifically why but there's not much of a point. I'm more interested in specifically what strategic benefit you think there is for scum hydras obfuscating posts and how it applies to Doduo in this game (especially when you had outright said you had figured out how to tell who was posting what anyway).

I didn't mean I had completely figured out how to tell who was posting, only that I thought I had worked out who posted what up till then. And as for benefit, anything that distracts or gets in the way is useful for scum.

[Lia]

@ Alchemist:

It's not the not signing that bothers me, but their attitude over it all and the way they and others are attacking me for wanting to get a better understanding of them. It's throwing up a lot of fog and making it difficult to read others as well, particularly Pie. I'm having trouble trying to decide whether Pie genuinely believes what she is saying about me or whether she is just trying to take the pressure off of Doduo.


I still have no idea about Gaiden but as Honey bee has joined Nacho and Alchemist as a town read then scum must be between Doduo, Gaiden and Pie.

I want to see Pieguyn's response to my question in 571 before going any further.

[Lia]

Part of the reason for not elaborating on it was because it was a gut read. The post felt town. The rest was due to lack of time. But there is good stuff in that post. What do you think about what MS said about Doduo there?

them "not having reads on other players" is still a bad reason for scum reading them

it happened in this case bc they felt strongly MS was scum (similarly to me) and didn't see a need to form strong reads on other players or further engage him over it

How do you know whether they actually felt that way rather than just giving that appearance?

What bothers me about this is that you usually reply to everything addressed to you, but when MS wrote 348, 349, 350, 353 and 354 you completely ignored him; and when he called you on it you just gave him the brush off (462).

[Lia]

So it's down to Doduo and Pieguyn for scum.

Vote: Doduo

[Lia]

Unvote

How is Pie town?

[Lia]

So is Alchemist scum then?

[Lia]

massclaim

I'm fine with a massclaim. I need to do some rereading too, but that won't be till tomorrow evening.

[Lia]

also I'm not gonna lie, I thought Nacho could be scum based on the no lynch yesterday. -.-

This is one of the reasons lia, and also she's just been very genuine comparitively this game. How are you scum reading her?

It was partly the way she was defending Doduo, partly the slant she was putting on some of my posts - for example, see my response in 560 to her 549 - and partly poe. Although the poe bit depends on my town reads being right and I didn't get the time I hoped for yesterday to go back over these.

So unless anyone has something good we can ascertain from their claim then I might consider it but otherwise I won't.

I don't have anything useful to report but my claim may help to determine the set up, although in view of the way roles were assigned I'm not sure how much help that will be.

[Lia]

I think you're jumping the gun a bit there.

Pie called for a massclaim
Doduo said they'd be in later tonight (that was on Sunday)
I agreed to a massclaim
Gaiden agreed to it but said no character claim
You agreed but questioned Gaiden's point re: character claims
Honey bee objected saying she didn't think claiming was going to be helpful right now
Gaiden claimed in order to explain her point and said she had an idea that could work without ability claiming, but wanted to hear our (or just Honey bee's?) thoughts first.
Honey bee explained why she didn't want a massclaim
You then claimed
I said I didn't have anything useful to report
Pie said her claim could potentially be useful if we have flavor claims (which Gaiden didn't want)
Pie then said that we shouldn't bother flavor claiming if we're not going to do a full massclaim

So that's two against (HB and Pie), and Doduo has given no indication either way. So why are you trying to force the issue by saying that everyone has agreed to it and going ahead anyway?

I'd like to hear Gaiden's idea (623) and Doduo's views before going any further.

[Lia]

Actually, I think I misread what Pie said. She's not against claiming, but she did imply her role wasn't so useful without the flavour claims.

[Lia]

It doesn't all make sense to me.

What I don't know is who it is or why, and that's the part I think could be telling. Given how roleblocking worked in Micro 415, I'd wager that the roleblocker knows their target gets informed of being roleblocked, and if that player is someone who's been claiming a Townread on me, I'll know they're probably scum.

You say this, then when you realise it was Pie that did the blocking you change your tune. Why? Also, is your neighbourising permanent or temporary?

@ Pie: Why would you want to prevent Alch using his neighbourise on day 3?

[Lia]

skimming, saw something about massclaim approval - 2 scum would mean mylo so massclaim and no lynch is the best way to go through this

So it's only Honey bee that prefers not to claim now. Shall we go ahead? Or rather, shall we finsh claiming as three have already partially claimed. If so, I'd like Doduo to claim next. Full claim apart from flavour please.

[Lia]

Did the roleblock notice say that it only affected night actions?

[Lia]

I'm seeing inconsistencies there with part of my role but it may be they weren't intended to be consistent in the first place. I will claim after Doduo but not before them. Honey bee's 624 feels town so I'm happy to let her decide whether to claim after we've done so.

I think the only one I'd be prepared to lynch at the moment would be Doduo. Marquis has posted more than 20 times elsewhere since Doduo's last post here, including several long posts, so I'm suspicious of why they're choosing not to give priority to a game so close to deadline.

[Lia]

Who would Doduo's partner be?

I don't know. I thought it was Pie, as I said earlier, but now I'm thinking it's more likely to be you. And I'm not ruling out HB but that feels less likely.

what feels town about it? (I think I know why you're calling it town, I'm just asking to be sure first.)

Because it looked like it made sense as town? I don't want to say any more than that as it's only speculation and won't help.

[Lia]

Marquis has said their role is useless but I still want to see their claim. I would have preferred for them to go first but as it's only 3 hours to deadline I'm not going to wait any longer to claim, for what it's worth.

I'm a tracker that hasn't been able to track anyone yet due to certain conditions.

[Lia]

I think I'd like to wait until Doduo and HB have claimed before replying to that one.

[Lia]

Well, there's not much we can do until the others turn up. Did you get any insights from your neighbourhood discussions?

[Lia]

what prompted this change, and do you still feel this way?

Honey bee's confidence in you swayed me a bit, but it was Alchemist pushing ahead with the massclaim before everyone had agreed that gave me a bad vibe.

where were you going with this (as in, what did you think this was indicative of when asking it)? were you thinking it made Alch scum, or Alch/me partners, or something else entirely?

Because his 633, 638 and 639 looked like he was trying to find a reason to call me scum, but when he realised it was you who blocked him he back-peddled. It made me think he might be scum who was trying to keep a town-you thinking he was town.

Doduo/Lia need to claim ASAP.

I claimed in 665. We're just waiting for Doduo and HB now.

[Lia]

@ Kagami: Can you prod Doduo and Honey bee please?

Honey bee hasn't posted for more than nine days.

[Lia]

Hi Fferyllt!

This is a good point, and fits with my end of day 1 feelings from the initial read.

Which part of 549 did you think was a good point?

Lia you say you haven't been able to track anyone. Did you target anyone?

No, because I haven't been able to yet.

[Lia]

Can anyone throw any light on how Doduo's role fits with what we've seen so far? Because it doesn't make sense to me as they've described it. It also doesn't make sense that MS would have motivated Doduo when he was scumreading them. I'm thinking maybe they are able to take a dead player's role?

so we're some sort of gravedigger like role that gets to see what role someone was
which is pretty useless considering if there was a janitor kill scum would have used it already
dont remember targets off the top of my head but last night was another one of those times when we completely forgot this existed again just to say the least
also one of them was the motivator which let us double target but then the next day it was a no lynch iirc

Are you saying you were able to apply MS's role to yourself?

[Lia]

The part about your approach to the MS wagon. I also liked his comment about your assertions that doduo-heads was trying to obfuscate by not answering who posted what, but I can somewhat sympathize because I sometimes have trouble telling them apart.

I replied to Pie's comment in my post 560 pointing out where she was wrong in what we was saying there about my approach to the MS wagon.

After I read through your defense (and alchemist's defense) of your relative newness and unfamiliarity with hydras, that part made more sense.

Pardon? I never said anything about newness or unfamiliarity with hydras, neither of which are true.

Your scumreads are doduo (still) and honeybee/me?

What is it about their play that gives you a scum-pair feeling?

I still think Doduo is scum but I'm not sure of their partner. I still don't like the way Pie was defending Doduo but at the moment I'm looking at Alchemist. I don't know why you thought I was still scumreading your slot?

[Lia]

Not usually when you have a mod confirmed town. In that circumstance, the night kill is obvios and it's thde exact same pool of potential scum players.

The main reason for the Day 3 no-lynch was the absence of Doduo. Honey bee was reasonably active until flaking but Doduo were just keeping us hanging around, as they are now.

[Lia]

Probably, but nobody was getting lynched. There were no votes because we were still waiting for them to claim. It may or may not have been intentional but the result was the same either way.

[Lia]

It's very difficult to refine reads when the slot I need to hear from isn't posting, and then when they do they ignore my post.

also one of them was the motivator which let us double target but then the next day it was a no lynch iirc

AD's role was like a clairvoyant thing? So like he gives them tea then after each day he gets to see if they were player/flavor targetted

I think that's the only one we got due to general inactivity from both of us forgetting this game was actually a hting

These two statements are inconsistent with each other.

@ Doduo:

Can you explain the above please, and also reply to my question in 705.

[Lia]

What I'm seeing about, and from, Alchemist over the last couple of pages is firming up my scum read on him. I particularly didn't like 735. He hasn't really tried to sort Doduo all game and from that post it seems he is content to let them slip by in lylo when we should be reconsidering all reads.

I want to hear what players think. If there's massive concern about my slot, I'll claim. I might claim anyway just because it's lylo and realistically our backs are up against the wall today. Aside from possibly helping with setup spec (which I'm somewhat skeptical will be gamebreaking) the only thing that claiming does is maybe clear up concerns about my slot.

Please do make at least a partial claim. At this stage the more information we have out in the open the better.

[Lia]

Congrats on the win!

Thanks for the game, Kagami.

[Lia]

The setup was well made and had it lasted a few more rounds, more of the elements may have come into play. Maybe make it a mini next time.

Pie was definitely MVP of the game. I must learn to stick with my earlier reads.

What I really didn't understand is why almost everyone was townreading Doduo. I think the most frustrating bit for me was seeing that they needed an extra vote to lynch in lylo, and their lurking of course.

[Lia]

Has the mafia PT been released? I can see the others but not that one.