Micro 514: Dealing With Dragons Mafia (Game Over)

[Wisdom]

hai

VOTE: the betting pool

[Wisdom]

lucky + penguin

[Wisdom]

that was an unannounced L-1.

VOTE: kyndy

[Wisdom]

You announce when your vote puts a player at L-1 so that nobody accidentally hammers.

[Wisdom]

You've apparently played in enough games to know both that and how many votes it takes to lynch in a 9p, so I am not bying your ignorance.

[Wisdom]

Why are you claiming?

[Wisdom]

VOTE: vedith

[Wisdom]

For future reference, claim only at L-1 when under hammer threat please

[Wisdom]

it isnt, she's town

[Wisdom]

the way she claimed screams newbtown

[Wisdom]

If she has so much experience why does she panic from just L-2?

neh.

[Wisdom]

scum don't claim at L-2
scum don't claim VT

it was just a kneejerk town reaction

[Wisdom]

A steal

[Wisdom]

I did, she has played some scum games.

She has also got lynched a few times as town, which would explain the preemptive claim somewhat

[Wisdom]

I didn't like Vedith's hop on kyndy at all

[Wisdom]

how about you just follow me

[Wisdom]

kyndy, who is scum?

[Wisdom]

kyndy, who is scum?

It's a little early for reads, but I think Shadowzz, Vedith, or Grayfoxxxx. Sheeping and not many posts are my main reasons at this point in the game. Of course, that's kind hypocritical of me to say that since that's exactly what I did.

Your vote is not on any of them.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom - Give me reasons for your vote on Vedith.

And I'd like more than just 57

what i said on 57. The vote felt sheepy, he repeated everything I said.

[Wisdom]

Elbirn you look different than last game. You had reasonable reads there, and you sticked to them despite what others said (for example you insisted I am town). I like neither your shallow tunnel on kyndy nor the way you stopped pushing her just because I didn't agree with you.

[Wisdom]

your question was pointless.

[Wisdom]

You asked if I could see her 6 votes thing as scum panic. I obviously don't and I have talked about it already, so it was pointless

[Wisdom]

I don't understand what you're saying, what vote count slip?

[Wisdom]

That can't be a town slip. It's either an honest mistake or a terrible excuse.

[Wisdom]

And if you go by my read on her afterwards, which one will it be?

Are you going somewhere with this posturing?

[Wisdom]

I feel like you're implying you're scumreading me without stating it

Are you scared of stating a clear scumread on me?

[Wisdom]

What's wrong with shaddowez's reason?

[Wisdom]

I don't know where you saw all that

The overconfidence and tunneling of kyndy based on nothing but her RVS vote actually has me scum reading Elbirn.

This was his reason and I completely agree with him. Elbirn's tunnel on kyndy was ridiculously shallow, he even questioned the reason she gave for RVSing.

[Wisdom]

He then says about Elbirn being pushy, but only mention of FireBringer is that he hasn't played with him. Surely if you don't know how someone plays you would question this play if you have it as suspicious on another player?

When you don't know someone and they do something that feels off to you, you can't tell if it's because they are scum or because they are just a weird person with a weird playstyle. As a result you can speak about people you already know much more easily.

[Wisdom]

His comment about fire was in response to the discussion that started with this:

Is firebringer always this trolly?

and is irrelevant, so I don't get why you're mentioning it?

[Wisdom]

As for the first line, shaddoweh essentially proves how bad his push on kyndy was. He presented kyndy's RVS as wagoning yet had nothing to say about Gray doing the same thing.

[Wisdom]

He then says about Elbirn being pushy, but only mention of FireBringer is that he hasn't played with him. Surely if you don't know how someone plays you would question this play if you have it as suspicious on another player?

When you don't know someone and they do something that feels off to you, you can't tell if it's because they are scum or because they are just a weird person with a weird playstyle. As a result you can speak about people you already know much more easily.

Well, this is where we differ concerning this. I see you point, and yeah maybe this is the case with most people on here but I don't think that that voting for a specific reason should go to 1 person if others are doing the same.

It's basically the same as lurkers, but then this would probably side with your argument more, I would personally just address the lot with it.

uh except that comment had nothing to do with his vote

[Wisdom]

no. His comment on Fire had nothing to do with voting Elbirn. He was just giving his own thoughts on Fire because it was the discussion at that point. He was not comparing them, neither favoring one instead of the other.

[Wisdom]

Okay, so here kyndy puts the second vote on axxle. She doesn't appear to acknowledge beginning a wagon

These imply he had a problem with kyndy wagoning. So it's not different to Grey's wagoning.

[Wisdom]

Lurk

yeah no

Start playing

[Wisdom]

VOTE: gray

[Wisdom]

127: Wisdom is scum because of his playstyle

try harder

[Wisdom]

Like, my reads have been quite clear - just because I don't go "x is town, y is scum" (which I do anyway sometimes) it doesn't mean I don't give reads

[Wisdom]

Where did I post a "recap"?

[Wisdom]

Kind of a hands off feel that's resorting a lot to theory over specificities to fill posts.

Where did he do that?

[Wisdom]

Gray has no idea what my scum play looks like, considering the game he's referring to was a greater idea variant (therefore multiball)

[Wisdom]

Let's see.

133 is asking you to prove your baseless accusation. Not a recap.
129 is ponting out how your accusation sucks. Not a recap.
119, 116, 114 is me trying to show Vedith how he has completely misinterpreted what Shadoweh posted. Not recaps.
99 is explaining why Vedith's question was pointless. Not a recap.
70 is pointing out that kyndy is not voting any of her scumreads. Not a recap.
21 is quite obviously not a recap, it's an accusation.

buh bye

[Wisdom]

The rest of your ISO is pretty much one liners, and votes with empty reasons.

which is how I usually post, too bad

I think post 93 was kind of substantial, yu should post like that more often.

This shows you don't actually think I'm scum

die

[Wisdom]

This is what pinged for me. Citing other people in this way sounds vague and less relevant that one might think at first glance. Combined with an RVS that felt nervous and I'd like to see what's going on here.

I don't see anything wrong with that. He explained what felt off to him about Elbirn's confidence.

His RVS wasn't nervous either.

[Wisdom]

Gray has no idea what my scum play looks like, considering the game he's referring to was a greater idea variant (therefore multiball)

ANOTHER post where wisdom just states a fact, but this time he tried to correlate it to his defense.

"I was scum in that game, but you have no idea what I'm like as scum" Tf?



We were in a game, and you were scum. Don't know what else to add. "No idea" sounds kinda desperate.

you still don't know how I look like as scum, sorry

[Wisdom]

Nope, with "recap and no scumhunting" you are essentially accusing me of IIOA. None of these posts were IIOA, so try again

[Wisdom]

ok so grey is obvscum

im done here

[Wisdom]

ill give you one last chance.

There are people who have over 20 games with me and still can't meta me. You can't meta me off a single game, especially given that game was multiball and I was genuinely scumhunting for other factions. If anything, if my play this game reminds you of that game, you should be taking it as a sign I am town.

But even without any meta, it's quite evident I am town. All these posts you listed, in all of them I am scumhunting, trying to make people see their mistakes and either fix them or respond in ways that could be telling. You are just disliking the way I am doing it.

[Wisdom]

meanwhile I don't like PA so far

[Wisdom]

i dont care whether you see me as town

[Wisdom]

VOTE: the betting pool

[Wisdom]

If you thought my push was such crap then why did you vote her with me and say nothing of my push at the time?

I voted her for a single thing she did that I didn't like. You pushed her for things that weren't scummy and kept tunneling even after she claimed.

[Wisdom]

Of course my reads after 100+ pages of a large game were stronger than my reads in 3-4 pages of a micro.

That's irrelevant. The point is that other people didn't affect your reads there. While here, I say she is town, you immediately accept it and unvote.

[Wisdom]

ok so grey is obvscum

im done here

VOTE: the betting pool

I don't get how your back and forth with gray concludes with you switching your vote off of him, particularly considering post 151.

i thought some more and decided gray is town

[Wisdom]

I also don't like all of wisdom's empty threats (ie "die", "last chance") and then not even voting Grey.

..what? I was voting Gray.

[Wisdom]

im back to not liking kyndy but i dont fucking know because newb

this fucking game

[Wisdom]

You continued, then stopped after I insisted she's town

[Wisdom]

no idea how you can get me-scum from a discussion where verdith was making no sense

[Wisdom]

But I think that's a fake claim anyway soo

yes i call this tunneling

[Wisdom]

whichever you want, it wont matter anyway

[Wisdom]

nope

[Wisdom]

you've had something from betting, a bullshit accusation on shadoweh

[Wisdom]

you, axxle and shadoweh are my only solid townreads

everyone else is ugh

[Wisdom]

among the ugh reads:

kyndy could be town because claim
gray could be town because i think he wouldnt push me like that as scum
vedith could maybe be town because of his moonlogic that i mostly associate with town

that leaves Elbirn and The Betting Pool

[Wisdom]

His research in kyndy's games felt town. Same about his question about firebringer

[Wisdom]

dunno it looked like he didnt just vote people, he wanted to make sure the behavior that feels off isn't normal for them

[Wisdom]

you see alignment indicative in rvs votes so it doesnt matter

[Wisdom]

I was making a jab at how you're trying to understand why I'm reading people when you yourself scumread people off null things, but okay

You're right we're most likely not in the same team however

[Wisdom]

betting is a cool lynch more people should embrace

[Wisdom]

Liking Elbirn now

which means I am wrong about someone else :/ maybe axxle.

[Wisdom]

wisdom comes off as scum for trying to write gray off as obvscum or a VI, giving him a "last chance" to back off

bullcrap. You've played with me enough to know such behaviors are not alignment indicative for me.

[Wisdom]

didnt like any of his posts

[Wisdom]

It wasn't drunkiness. Elbirn was saying that Betting's thought process should lead him to thinking you are scum, yet it doesn't. He wasn't arguing you are scum, or that you should think BP should think you are scum.

[Wisdom]

dude he's not asking you anything

[Wisdom]

What? Fox?

Unless im misunderstanding, Elbirn is subtly calling my actions scummy. His few posts before that had me thinking we would end up here. Seems I was right.

You said this. He explained to you that he was not calling you scummy, he was saying that according to Betting's thought process Betting should be thinking you are scum, yet he isn't.

[Wisdom]

its not a question you just fail at comprehension

[Wisdom]

I explained to you exactly what he was saying which was obvious anyway, but no you're insisting it was a question because there was a question mark

[Wisdom]

no he nowhere asked you if you agree

but you fail at reading

[Wisdom]

dw you cant look any worse

worst part is you are town

[Wisdom]

ill try for one last time even though I know it's for naught

235 - Elbirn asks Betting for his reads on me and you.
239 - Betting gives the reads, including townreading you for X,Y,Z reasons.
240 - Elbirn argues that X,Y,Z reasons should normally lead Betting to believe you are scum, not town.
242/244 - You misunderstand that as Elbirn arguing/implying you are scum.
246/248 - Elbirn tries to clear up the misunderstanding, explaining that he was questioning Betting about the read on you and the oddities around it, not giving his own read on you. He asks if that makes sense, namely if you now understand, if the misunderstanding was cleared
249 up to now - You misunderstand that as Elbirn asking you if you believe Betting should scumread you.

[Wisdom]

ok

please dont join any games im in in the future. Thanks.

[Wisdom]

sigh

i never said you misunderstood a question

why, why the fuck am i replying to this shit

[Wisdom]

242/244 - You misunderstand that as Elbirn arguing/implying you are scum.
246/248 - Elbirn tries to clear up the misunderstanding, explaining that he was questioning Betting about the read on you and the oddities around it, not giving his own read on you. He asks if that makes sense, namely if you now understand, if the misunderstanding was cleared

open your goddamn eyes and read. Read one word at a time, until you can grasp the meaning of every word and what it means.

[Wisdom]

it cant be said any more clearly than 283

[Wisdom]

it was not a question, so it was not odd

[Wisdom]

Liking Elbirn now

What changed?

I liked your posts to betting

What do you think about axxle? Right now poe gives me betting and axxle but axxle's vote is complicating that

[Wisdom]

nah gray is town

Thoughts on betting and axxle?

[Wisdom]

VOTE: axxle

[Wisdom]

Anybody that reads Gray as town - could you please point me in a direction as to why?

There's no real scum motivation behind anything he's done. He's just a VI who really believes he's doing nothing wrong and he's making sense.

[Wisdom]

The only way I could see him being scum is if he was faking this dumb persona on purpose, but given he only has had a single game with me I don't think that's the first strategy that popped into his mind. Because he'd have to rely on me townreading him if that was the case, which evidently didn't happen at the beginning.

[Wisdom]

nah

[Wisdom]

daytalk in a micro? wat

[Wisdom]

anyway, even if you're town, you're probably the best townlynch we could have, so whatevs

[Wisdom]

Elbirn, Axxle was a Traitor. He didn't know the other mafia.

[Wisdom]

or nvm, his role PM suggests that he could know

[Wisdom]

penguin why are you treating firebringer like flipped scum? You are literally trying to read people as if he has flipped scum already.

[Wisdom]

VOTE: shaddowez

[Wisdom]

also I have a day power that I can only use today and should conftown me, so you can all consider me confirmed town

[Wisdom]

my reads were evidently not great

shadow is just poe because i townread everyone more than him

[Wisdom]

I don't think betting is scum

[Wisdom]

He was a traitor, so no bus

[Wisdom]

I don't like firebringer today

it's prolly shadow and him

[Wisdom]

And yes we're prolly looking for 3 scum total

[Wisdom]

As for Gray, I'm not sure. I don't generally label people as useless town - definitely not right all the time, but I'm much more likely to read people as useless scum.

This is terrible

[Wisdom]

I can only use it today so I will

What is decided?

[Wisdom]

I prefer shadow

[Wisdom]

i cant use it on myself or i would

[Wisdom]

i make someone unlynchable on day2

[Wisdom]

I don't think any of us are townreading gray, actually. If shaddowez is town I'd say gray is most likely the other scum

nah gray is town

[Wisdom]

fire what do you mean "some wizard"? don't you have a name?

[Wisdom]

The wizards are the villains of the story, as betting pool explained earlier (one of the heads, PA I think, has read the books), and from what I've looked up that checks out.

wouldnt gm give him a fakeclaim if flavor was alignment indicative?

[Wisdom]

then read your role pm?

[Wisdom]

/still prefer lynching shadow

[Wisdom]

and?

why are you assuming one scum?

[Wisdom]

Axxle was a traitor. It's not OP to have 2 scum and a traitor.

[Wisdom]

On the other hand, it would make zero sense to have a single scum and a traitor.

Plus Axxle's role PM said "co-conspirator

s

"

[Wisdom]

VOTE: firebringer

shadow is his partner then

[Wisdom]

VOTE: shadow

less blahblah moar scumlynch

[Wisdom]

I shot wisdom because I analyzed everything and he's scum.

Teach me how to analyze

[Wisdom]

Honestly I'm a little sad Wisdom is likely town.

Why? I've been pretty obviously town

[Wisdom]

It's shadow and it was pretty obvious without any claims

[Wisdom]

My flavor Is Kazul btw

[Wisdom]

vedith claim please

[Wisdom]

or basically just hammer

bp makes sense for scum to have given the vig

[Wisdom]

uh

so then who saved me?

[Wisdom]

the only explanation i can think of is elbirn actually shot shadow and he was lying to make shadow claim non-bp

[Wisdom]

day 2 governor, to be exact

[Wisdom]

that sounds too fucking op.

[Wisdom]

Does it explicitly state that if your target isn't scum, they won't die? Or are you just assuming it?

[Wisdom]

well your kill wouldnt work on axxle

but still

[Wisdom]

BP doesn't really make sense if Elbirn's vig is like he's describing it. It can only kill Wizards therefore only Firebringer and the last scum (Axxle was a traitorous dragon, not a wizard). Making the last scum BP is ridiculous because it would mean Elbirn's vig would only be able to kill a single person (Firebringer). Making a townie BP is also useless since the vig wouldn't be able to kill them anyway.

Therefore, simply put, Elbirn's vig and a BP don't both exist.

[Wisdom]

1. I didn't read the books so I don't know who that is.

cimorene is the main character

[Wisdom]

gray wouldn't really need convincing

[Wisdom]

#still cool with a shadow hammer

[Wisdom]

you, axxle and shadoweh are my only solid townreads

everyone else is ugh

also im awesome at this game (you was fire)

[Wisdom]

#still cool with a shadow hammer

Same here. It's the necessary lynch for today.

then you could hammer

[Wisdom]

if shaddowez is town BP it's pretty clear Elbirn is scum anyway

[Wisdom]

Vedith you're left all alone with a dragon and her princess

Rdy to die?

[Wisdom]

what tracker thing?

[Wisdom]

(also yeah, if i was not conftown yet due to the other one zillion reasons, I just didn't hammer)

[Wisdom]

what do you mean "changed her mind"? It wasn't a flavor vig before?

[Wisdom]

what's wrong about that setup?

[Wisdom]

Even if the last scum has no powers, 3 scum in a micro still warrants town having power

[Wisdom]

The push you have done on people makes it obvious. I mean, you "shot" Wisdom and then automatically tried to get him lynched Day 3.

what's wrong with that? How would you react if you were a vig, shot someone, and they didn't die?

[Wisdom]

well i don't see myself doing anything other than this, so let's get it over with

VOTE: vedith

[Wisdom]

gg

[Wisdom]

hey gray im still scum, the mod is prolly trolling

[Wisdom]

i know, ive seen daytalk in micros before

[Wisdom]

i dont mean everything i say, goodmorning