Micro 1059: Micro & Normal Stuff | GAME OVER

[scamper]

if its not meg i will be snapvoting dats in elo

bfore someone asks: "haven't you been saying you think it's coral?" yes. i do. but the two plausible scenarios in case we get there are either that 1. i am wrong in my read and have been all game or 2. dats and ausuka roadblocked me all game from killing the last scum at which point victory was never an option to begin with

how did 2. translate into "dats is literally never going to vote coral in yeetlo" (or rather, what about me gave you that impression), and what made you change your mind from the snap-voting-at-yeetlo plan?

that was never really a thought

that was me being petty cuz i said it was coral 2 days straight and got ignored by everyone in the game

ausuka seemed upset by it so i immediately backed down because really i shouldnt decide the game out of spite

[scamper]

like, correct me if i've missed anything, but the closest thing to an explenation of meg's towniness is "they're more aloof as scum" in 1144. and i usually hate going "please explain every single thought you've ever had", but i really don't understand how you came to the conclusion of meg's play being so strongly towny?

i thought i got into it but basically when meg and i got into that heated 1v1 on Day 1 basically while i felt they were incredibly frustrating, they ultimately really believed all the stuff that they were saying and scum basically rarely gets into a tiff like that. they went from aggressively provoking ari to aggressively provoking me and scum just doesnt play that way. i dont know how to explain it futher its just that sometimes when you get into a big argument with someone you just get the sense you *know* theyre town

i also thought the claim was believable and made sense as a town role in the setup not that it matters

[scamper]

i went to read phoenix's iso in 1976

first of all, flashbacks

second of all:

Spoiler:

Subject: Newbie 1976 - Game Over

Readslist, as promised:

Datisi, Salad

I have to speak about these two in the same paragraph. As far as D1 goes I was fine with Datisi apart from some minor stuff. I disagree with Norway that Datisi's been townreading Salad from the start, it doesn't seem so. When she starts townreading him, though, her main argument is him often acting in a similar way as Town. I'll ignore the whole thing about if the Mason should have claimed or not because as I already said I think there are good points to both sides of the argument. The townread on Salad is the point that has to be addressed here - speaking from my point of view, if I ignore the fact that Salad's Town playstyle is similar to the one he's showing us in this game, I still have some things that bugged my about him from D1 that I have already addressed as well as the fact that he hasn't posted much on D2. Also, him ignoring some of the questions asked is pissing me off, honestly. The fact that he gave up defending himself is not alignment-indicative whatsoever. I could see Datisi giving him a null read, as there are some things about Salad on D1 that I liked, but also some things I didn't. But a townread, I'm not so sure.

Datisi -

null

Salad -

Leaning scum

Norway, Naerys

Also have to address these two together. No problem with him whatsoever on D1. On D2, him starting to suspect Datisi based on the sole fact that Datisi didn't want the Mason to claim I don't understand. The vote-unvote on Datisi I also didn't like. Let's proceed to the Naerys townread then, that's the key point here. Naerys had a bad start, imo. 174 I particularly do not like. Overall, not impressed by her D1. D2: quick to suspect Datisi for no good reason, quick to vote Salad as well, based solely on the evidence from D1 instead of questioning him first. Proceeds to reconsider because... reasons, I guess? So, in general, does the Norway TR on Naerys make sense? No. Why did Norway proceed to vote Naerys after townreading her for so long? I don't know.

Norway -

null

Naerys -

Leaning Scum

Map Wolf

D1 was okay, except some stuff, such as his lingering vote on my slot or him voting my slot along with Non in the first place. D2, though, he's basically non-existent. Overall, not a lot to go off of but from what I have as information currently:

Map Wolf -

Leaning Scum

Non Imh

Town, solely because if she was not the Mason the real Mason should've claimed by now, I find. Her overall play I don't like.

Non Imh -

Town

To all three of my scumreads: What are your thoughts about the game right now? Reads, anything else you want to share? And given that we're 28 pages in I would like a more thorough answer, not shotgun reads or something. I think it's not much to ask.

The same goes for Non, now that I think about it. Look alive.

writes a lot about the townies, writes barely anything about his scumbuddy (and about the mason claim)

i need to check the other game too because one game does not meta make, and scum does sometimes switch up their play, but
it's intriguing at the very least

ok, i skimmed the first half of the iso in the other scumgame, looked like some token distancing but nothing too serious

and no colourful readslist for me to compare smfh

this is what ive been trying to talk about for days........

[scamper]

this is the closest thing he gives to a readslist in 1991:

Spoiler:

Subject: Newbie 1991 | Battletoads | Endgame

Caught up with the posts I had missed.

I'm liking FF more and more, I think he's one of the players that is more actively trying to solve while also bringing some new ideas to the table, for example 315 and 376.

Emperor I don't mind as much as well now that he's more active, too.

I didn't like Teacher's push on Hunter as pointed out in 328, and I don't think 363 helps, either, although I will admit that B and C from that post are valid points, imo. Would like to see how Hunter will respond.

Hunter I still TR.

Also, I'm not making a decision until Dragon gets replaced, so:

@Penguin: I would also like an extension

i bolded the part about his scumbuddy

[scamper]

like, correct me if i've missed anything, but the closest thing to an explenation of meg's towniness is "they're more aloof as scum" in 1144. and i usually hate going "please explain every single thought you've ever had", but i really don't understand how you came to the conclusion of meg's play being so strongly towny?

i thought i got into it but basically when meg and i got into that heated 1v1 on Day 1 basically while i felt they were incredibly frustrating, they ultimately really believed all the stuff that they were saying and scum basically rarely gets into a tiff like that. they went from aggressively provoking ari to aggressively provoking me and scum just doesnt play that way. i dont know how to explain it futher its just that sometimes when you get into a big argument with someone you just get the sense you *know* theyre town

i also thought the claim was believable and made sense as a town role in the setup not that it matters

how does this compare / coexist with 739?

i think if you look at the context at the time i was obviously really upset at meg still

once i got some distance from the argument i was able to clear my head

[scamper]

i have to go for a bit, hopefully you are around when i get back

[scamper]

do you think there's a difference between meg's play in this game and meg's play in that game still then?

i wish you had asked me this when meg was still unflipped...............

im not, like, super solid it is necessarily clear cut in terms of its differences in a way that can be explained but while meg in that game was underhanded and made typical sort of pushes that attacked people for cheap reasoning here they had reads that while absurd, they seemed to really want to stick to their guns on in spite of overwhelming thread pressure disagreeing with them on those reads

i think maybe its easier to explain my progression thought-wise, which is that when someone really irritates you in a game, you start to *want* them to be scum beyond all reason cuz you dont wanna believe that sort of thing cn come from town, and at the moment i was feeling very spiteful and wavered in my thoughts. but when you take a step back from the game and cool off and think

rationally

it starts to become clearer and from that point in time i realized its just very unlikely for meg to play scum that way since they get *so* much negative attention from pushing unpopular reads and very few players have the will or audacity to do such a thing

i hope that makes some semblance of sense

[scamper]

also, so i don't forget: scamper, do you have any opinion on my ~self-towncase~ post in the hood?

ill be honest, i looked at the first page of posts from coral when it was just her in the hood and decided it wouldnt be that useful so i hadnt read the whole thing

ill take a look now

[scamper]

im assuming 213 is the post u are referring to?

[scamper]

its decent enough i suppose but it doesnt solidly sway me into being convinced you are town because of your progression on phoe/galron (i think its ~decent enough~ but am wary)


i'm reading open 857 now to compare and you had distancing/bussig votes on vulture and pp that were sort of underexplained. can you explain how that game is different to that one?

[scamper]

i still kinda want an answer to "why didn't you better out your reasons for townreading meg yesterday like you did now", but i have a feeling i know what the answer is gonna be

seemingly no one was interested and i didnt get asked specifically about it. no i didnt directly towncase meg but i came out saying "i think coral is scum because wxyz" and that i think your role and corals cannot exist in the same setup with don and have it pass review. i said i thought both of you were pocketed. none of this is a direct defense of meg but it should be sufficient to show that with 1 scum left i did not believe it was meg. i didnt really get feedback on that stuff except saying "no you're wrong" basically

if those arguments fall on deaf ears im not sure what else i can do. in theory i could pitch a fit and hijack the game and demand people follow me but thats not the ~vibe~ i am trying to go for on this account. at some point its just...if people are stuck on an idea it is very hard to convince them otherwise without making the game really unpleasant and it's not like i'm perfect at this game anyway.

idk, if i am scum this game i probably just say "maybe i'm wrong" and let it go through and don't try to crow about it too much. i think i did that a lot in the mini normal, i would sort of slyly shade someone and then let the town's imagination go wild and have them vote that person out without pushing them too much. i made a post going "my read on freedom is stale" and the town sort of went off to the races there.. but i basically never pulled an "i told you so!!" because people just reflexively dislike those sort of posts

[scamper]

another thing that struck me as a possibility of phoenix's scumplay is not that he perma-scumleans his partners, it's that he mimics the thread's read on them (i'm assuming teacher was scumread in that game since he flipped day 1)

unfortunately, scamper was townread and coral was scumread at the time of his readslist, so this is not helpful >.>

its hard to say with a data set of 2 but i think most newb-scum players (and even more moderately experienced players) tend to be very patternistic in their approach toward their partners, at least until they start getting punished for it

i did check teh game for context and while no one was voting teacher at that moment in time there was a general anti-teacher sentiment in the preceding pages so you are right on that point

idk, i'll check his posts in his scum pts to see if he says anything useful there

[scamper]

from 1976 it looks like hes *very* hands on and critical of his partner and is constantly pressing him to do things and picking at things he thins he finds suspicious which is kind of a typical scum pov thing where the mistakes of your partner are most apparent to you due to being informed. he posts a lot about how he believes he *has* to push on his partner. i pulled a few quotes but you can check the rest for yourself its a short read

Spoiler:

Subject: Newbie 1976 Mafia PT

Dude, you aren't trying to engage in the conversation. I don't know if that has to do with not wanting to make a bad move or something else but it's making you look suspicious. I would recommend rereading from the end of D1, seeing as that's when you stopped being so active, but more specifically the whole D2 as of now. The whole argument that is still taking place is the key point here. I'll not tell you what to say, you have to figure out that one by yourself, just ignore the fact that you're scum and play to find the best possible lynch for today from a Town perspective. I need the Map Wolf from early D1, actively trying to figure out what's going on in the game, asking questions, etc.

Subject: Newbie 1976 Mafia PT

You do realise that after your vote on Datisi I have to vote you, right?

Subject: Newbie 1976 Mafia PT

It would seem questionable otherwise, to say the least.

[scamper]

the 1991 pt isnt as interesting, but i think this bit was kinda interesting cuz phoenix shows a tendency to 'perspective lock' himself into scumreading his partner but doesn't really want to bus on day 1:

Spoiler:

Subject: Newbie 1991 | Battletoads | Mafia PT

Should I follow my own logic in the game, you are my only SR left except Dragon's slot.

I don't like this.

Subject: Newbie 1991 | Battletoads | Mafia PT

What are the chances I start a wagon by voting you...

Subject: Newbie 1991 | Battletoads | Mafia PT

I believe there was no other option at this point, sorry. :/

They are not sure of their votes. I believe you can convince them they're on the wrong person (even though they aren't ).

*sigh* I may've just lost us the game.

[scamper]

all of this is maybe reading a bit too deep into the tea leaves for someone who posted 15 times this game but i have been fixated on this read for multiple phases now

[scamper]

This is probably a minor point but before I get into more detailed responses, I noticed a few times people mentioning the NRG when considering the setup. Reminder that we're in the Micro queue, and although the setup is Normal, it was reviewed by Schadd, and not necessarily the whole NRG. I don't know if that affects any assumptions being made, but just in case.

coral i just want to ask: are you aware of whether your info will be revealed on your flip or not? traditionally informed info is redacted but im not sure how it would be handled


if i wanted to i could probably dig through hours of mod meta on schadds thoughts on investigative roles since he hosts so many games but im also not, like, sure it matters all tat much. it also doesnt help me decide who is scum and that is kind of the biggest problem in my face right now

[scamper]

I would probably assume that it would be redacted, but I was not made explicitly aware of what would happen. Why?

i ask because were you at any point afraid you that info would be lost if you died without claiming?

[scamper]

At the end of day yesterday, did you miss 1385 from Datisi, or did you choose not to respond to it?

The non-response to that was what made me feel that you didn't really care about convincing anyone Meg was town even when they reached out to you about it, but you seem to be implying today that you felt you weren't ever even asked.

i think at that point i was so exasperated/convinced it was hopeless that i was only skimming, yes. i like to think i pay more attention to detail as scum but ymmv

[scamper]

like, i think it is fundamentally correct i didn't care at that point but it was that i felt my arguments were falling on deaf ears and didnt care to repeat myself and deadline was approaching. town can have lapses in motivation too.

[scamper]

I would probably assume that it would be redacted, but I was not made explicitly aware of what would happen. Why?

i ask because were you at any point afraid you that info would be lost if you died without claiming?

not really, I guess? maybe I should have been?

I didn't think that i was at all likely to die night 1, and even if I did, my neighborize shot on Ausuka would have gone off, so she could have claimed the info for me. I suppose that does leave some possibility that she is making up the info but I didn't really think that far in advance because, again, I thought overnight that I was likely to be a main candidate for elimination on day 2 and there was no real reason for me to get nightkilled.

I did also try to make it my earliest stated opinion on the game, and would hope that would help people deduce what the information was if they saw that I flipped informed.

okay, fair enuf, just trying to see if ur posts track in terms of perspective


i wanna ask since youre here: how do you believe you have played this game differently in contrast to Open 854?

[scamper]

like, i think it is fundamentally correct i didn't care at that point but it was that i felt my arguments were falling on deaf ears and didnt care to repeat myself and deadline was approaching. town can have lapses in motivation too.

I can understand that, I think the progression is a bit more believable as town if you didn't notice the question, and I guess you might be unlikely as scum to just flat out ignore it if you did see it. The counterpoint would be that if you were still considering Datisi to be scum, I would have expected you to be reading his posts to try to sort him, while as scum you might not feel much of a need to do that.

I just feel that the way that Datisi went out of his way yesterday to towncase you and me is a townier approach. He wants to get all of his thoughts out there, he wants to fully explain all facets of his reasoning, and that includes both why Meg was scum and also why everyone else was town. That's also dangerous to do as scum knowing that he will end up in a 3p elo with the two people he just towncased -- he has to reverse his position on both of us, and he has to hope that his cases weren't convincing enough for us to townread each other.

And on the other hand, when I asked you to expand on why you were confident calling Datisi town, you went and found a bunch of reasons why he could be scum, and you never went into detail on why Meg's play was towny. It's believable that you could do that as town (i don't at all mean to say you're scummy for not being confident on Datisi town, since that is a very reasonable position, to be clear), but I think that the play does benefit you if you're scum, moreso than Datisi's play yesterday benefits him.

i don't really particularly agree

i think it's easier to find arguments for why people are town when you are coming from a place of perfect knowledge and know that your reasons are accurate and you can aways position yourself as being correct. i think i did this a lot in my scumgame

it also really doesnt matter cuz of course you have to go back on it the next day but no one will really care at all, ive never seen anyone get voted for pushing someone they were formerly townreadign at aelo. its easy to frame as re-evaluation


whereas as town you always have a layer of doubt and uncertainty. i didnt *know* meg was town. i didnt *know* datisi was town, and in fact when you asked me about the read and i went back i found my reasons werent as strong as i thought.

i think that in and of itself is very likely my strongest towntell this game, actually - you asked me about a townread i had, i went back and tried to find reasons for it, and i realized those reasons were not as strong as i previously thought. that is because my analysis of the game is *real evaluation* and i have to shape my thoughts based on the information presented in the thread. as scum when you have information on peoples alignments you are ultimately working backwards - you start off knowing someone is town and then have to find reasons for it. i think if that were the case id be able to find a lot more confident reasons for a townread than what i did

[scamper]

like, put yourself in these shoes for a minut: imagine i am town, and you are town


is scumtisi actually feeling threatened right now? at all? b/c objectively speaking, if he is scum, i dont think townreading both of us was actually dangerous at all

[scamper]

ishould also say: i was strongly scumreading you dy 2 based on phoenix associations and the fact that you had seemingly receded into the background the longer the day went on. i ultimately relented on xayah but i thought if it wasnt xayah it was you. that carried over into day 3 and i think my immediate reaction at the reveal was a kneejerk dislike - i disliked that there was this hidden info being kept out of sight from me, i dislike hoods in general, my immediate reaction to your claim was that it was outlandish.

i think when i have a ml i tend to be more cavalier with how i treat my readscuz if i have a target i wanna see them flip. and i was fixated on the idea of scum!coral to the extent that i wasnt able to take in and process new information properly. but i have to come in here and *consider* the possibility of town!coral and whether the claim is one mafia would actually make b/c i reread ausukas reasoning from yesterday about how your claim is a strange one to plan asmafia and i am letting it sink in

[scamper]

well you did say yesterday that you were snapvoting datisi in elo

I know none of us really thought that would happen but he probably still would feel a little threatened by that

i mean, i thought i made it pretty clear i relented on that and i feel like thats still kind of beside the point...

[scamper]

The differences (and ones that I think are town-indicative) are that here I didn't really make any efforts to Be Towny and create a strong presence, or push strongly for any town eliminations. And although you can't exactly trust me when I say that I would avoid repeating the same pattern of weak partner interactions and weak positioning surrounding their wagon... I most certainly would.

Day 2 and onward I cared more about trying to solve things with Ausuka than about performing for the main thread, which I don't think would really benefit me as scum beyond the fact that I get to say this now.

okay, thanks for explaining. i'm not sure how convincing it is necessarily because "i wasn't trying to be towny" is wifom-y and you can often say youd like to do things better but executing on them is hard. however i respect where you're coming from with this and it at least makes some sense to me. its not easy without a baseline town game to compare to but nothing that can be done about that

(its also kind of hard to have better partner interactions when for the most part that slot wasn't really playing the game. but again thats not really a point against anyone in particular)


i guess i should say one of my issues with you this game in particular you have asked me why i townread someone and went "sorry, tats not convincing" and it times to me it felt like scum false curiosity, where you ask a question about someones townread knowing you are always going to shoot it down, because you need to ml townies to win and so you arent *really* interested. that is kind of how i have felt about you this game. again this isnt really anything you can respond to fairly, and im not expecting or asking you to. im laying out the thought i had, to try to be more transparent.

[scamper]

well you did say yesterday that you were snapvoting datisi in elo

I know none of us really thought that would happen but he probably still would feel a little threatened by that

i mean, i thought i made it pretty clear i relented on that and i feel like thats still kind of beside the point...

you did now, but we're talking about his towncases from yesterday, right? I don't know, i just think that it's pretty believable to me in general that he would as scum be worried about one of us finding the other as town and turning on him

okay, i did this yesterday

i am actually surprised this has become a point of contention so let me try to make myself clear. i made that post because i didnt like that my reads were getting shut don. that clearly upset ausuka and i felt bad about it, so i stepped away from making the emotion based play (voting dats immediately because no one would follow me on voting you all game) and agreed to be rational. i thought that progression was clear in these two posts:

UNVOTE:

Whatever

I feel like people are mad at my play right now but idk what to do

I'll come back when I'm in a better place and have time to think

i'm not mad, ftr

i just disagree with your reads

it happens in mafia games

maybe you are right and i am wrong, i hardly claim to be perfect

@ausuka - sorry if i came off as pissy, it wasnt my intention


i think a vote on meg today is basically a foregone conclusion. in the event that meg flips town, you are almost certainly going to die overnight. i feel as though the last scum is already planning to pivot against me in 3-way. my future sight has gifted me this vision. if you feel incredibly strongly about one of dats/coral being town, please talk to me about it. i promise to take it into consideration.

the fact that i basically told ausuka i was willing to listen to her logic for either of you being town is me leaving the door open to be persuaded. the threat of snapvoting was never real. it was just me being selfish for a moment in time. i thought that was pretty clear but both of you are treating it like it wasnt

[scamper]

i guess i should say one of my issues with you this game in particular you have asked me why i townread someone and went "sorry, tats not convincing" and it times to me it felt like scum false curiosity, where you ask a question about someones townread knowing you are always going to shoot it down, because you need to ml townies to win and so you arent *really* interested. that is kind of how i have felt about you this game. again this isnt really anything you can respond to fairly, and im not expecting or asking you to. im laying out the thought i had, to try to be more transparent.

If I'm remembering those interactions correctly (I think it happened twice), from my perspective you gave a little one or two sentence summary of reasons that you had already stated, when the point of me asking was that I had already read your previous reasoning and I wanted to hear more. So me responding with "that's not convincing" wasn't intended to shoot you down, it was intended to prod you to go more in depth.

yeah again this answer doesnt really move the needle alignment wise at all, because you can either have really not believed what i was saying or you can be making that up and both are equally likely and make sense

but like i said i dont need you to answer for this

i am just explaining my thinking

[scamper]

yes i gathered that already, I was hoping for more, because that isn't really very convincing to me. is there anything specific you can point to in her posts that you think feels that way, or is it more of a general vibe?

Can you go into that a little more? I think if we can be confident on Datisi being town then this game becomes much easier.

these are the posts I'm thinking of

I feel like that shows my mindset clearly of wanting to push you to expand on your reasoning, not disregard it. if I were scum who wanted to shut down your answer then I wouldn't be trying to get you to talk more about why you find people towny

i think that's a pretty basic move tbh

[scamper]

he has also read the hood and seen that since night 1 even, I was considering who was more likely to be scum between you two, and that for the majority of the game i was leaning towards that being datisi

okay, i guess i should ask: were you worried coming into the start of today that i was town who would continue tunneling you?

[scamper]

it was less that i was open to considering both options and more that if i couldn't get the rest of the game to see you as scum even tho it seemed so clear to me i was content to hand the game to you

[scamper]

yes i gathered that already, I was hoping for more, because that isn't really very convincing to me. is there anything specific you can point to in her posts that you think feels that way, or is it more of a general vibe?

Can you go into that a little more? I think if we can be confident on Datisi being town then this game becomes much easier.

these are the posts I'm thinking of

I feel like that shows my mindset clearly of wanting to push you to expand on your reasoning, not disregard it. if I were scum who wanted to shut down your answer then I wouldn't be trying to get you to talk more about why you find people towny

i think that's a pretty basic move tbh

I agree, I don't think it would be hard to do what I did if I were scum. I was trying to refute your characterization you had of it in 1471. I don't think that my posts match with the motivations/perspective that you laid out in that post

i mean it's really not easy for me to tell either way...but i at least accept your explanation

[scamper]

idk, i have a bad habit of getting tunneled

but my actual mindset at the start of the day was: i was right, i'm annoyed cuz no one listened to me, i expect both of you to turn against me cuz whoever was scum was very much setting up for that pivot yesterday, i just want someone to vote me b/c i hate being the one to decide in this situation


but i will say regardless of whatever my words might seem like they're implying i'm rereading and re-evaluating with an open mind

[scamper]

like i don't think you know how it feels to just have an entire game collectively shut down every read you have and ignore you and treat you like you're not worth anything and then when it's down to elo the last townie turns against you and calls you scum for not doing enoufgh when no one ever cared about a single thing you said the entire game


like the entire game was just working on a project to ignore me

[scamper]

in other news i reread datisi's self-towncase in the hood and i kind of dislike it now but that may be because you asked him specifically how he'd have approached day 1 as scum o he had to answer in hypothetical terms, which isnt really helpful

[scamper]

if you want to talk about your issues with my day 1 though, feel free to go ahead

i will say that as i was rereading datisis iso i saw a post that in my (biased) opinion is town!indicative for me

[scamper]

in other news i reread datisi's self-towncase in the hood and i kind of dislike it now but that may be because you asked him specifically how he'd have approached day 1 as scum o

he had to answer in hypothetical terms, which isnt really helpful

i don't see how the bolded follows from the first part or why you dislike it?

(i will get to other stuff soon as i just got home)

the point is it is mostly you just say you wouldn't do this or that as scum and i don't think such arguments are really any good

however: there was no real other way you could respond to that post because coral was asking you what you wouldn't do as scum, so of course that is what you are going to be talking about

[scamper]

did you find any posts that were town!indicative for me, tho

@scsmper

don't open if you don't want to be hurt

Spoiler:

no

[scamper]

you consistently seemed reticent about expanding on them when asked. I felt like there is possible scum motivation for you to not give details on why meg's play was town.

I don't think that anyone is calling you scum for not doing enough. If you're scum it's because of what you did choose to do and what your priorities were.

okay. i think thats because in general i have a really hard time getting my thoughts across to people and when i offer explanations they usually say they dont care so i get frustrated and give up. i think i have an ?easier? time explaining things as scum because again i know the answers and can just tell people something that makes sense to them. i am not reticent to expand and i dont have a problem with being able to make things up as scum, i just have really simple explanations for why i think most things

peronally, thinking i let meg go over there as scum by weakly defending them is not giving credit to my play as scum. i think in that instance i fight tooth and nail to keep meg alive as scum because at that moment, meg is my victory condition. i would want meg in elo knowing 1. meg is unlikely to vote for me 2. if meg does vote me i can probably win that 1v1 given that everyone else was scumreading meg more than me. this is similar to how i played the mini normal as scum: i was sort of pushing marci, but i realized that keeping her alive meant that she was very likely to be the one voted out in ELO (my partner actually mentioned this) so i pivoted to defending her that day. i would have done that here as scum given that you/me/dats is obviously a lot moe unfavorable to me than me/dats/meg would be (or me/you/meg in some world where i pivoted to pushing datisi)

[scamper]

you can argue of course that scum don't always play optimally anf i think that's fair. i would just say my play is obviously not ideal as either alignment but attributing scum motives to play you deem non-ideal is a logical fallacy

[scamper]

the point is it is mostly you just say you wouldn't do this or that as scum and i don't think such arguments are really any good

why do you think that argument from me isn't good, but you keep making such arguments yourself?

(this isn't meant to be a shitty gotcha, i'm genuinely curious)

i dunno. i recognize that but i still kind of place myself in that mindset because i'm arguing off the top of my head and it's almost, like, reflexive to me to think that way and say "i wouldn't have done that as scum" even if it is unlikely to be persuasive. i'm writing what comes to mind rather than thinking it through all the way. i'm not sure that's actually AI except to say that in last scum game i was basically ducking real time interaction except when i had to and letting town screw up. that was a different gamestate though since i was universally townread because the traitor raged out at me and i was in the background, so i dont think it would really be applicable here

[scamper]

i feel like i should be asking datisi something but i'm not sure what i wanna ask actually

[scamper]

i mean
how likely do you think it is i'm town here? if less than 100%, then what is making you doubt it?

i'm 50/50 right now, or close enough to that i am not willing to state a lean

[scamper]

yesrerday i was "grr it's coral lim coral". today i am trying to come into the game with an open mind. there are narrative points i can see toward either of you being scum here

[scamper]

interesting, that's not what i was expecting you to say

is the reason behind that "switch" (ik it's not exactly a switch but you kno what i mean) in reads explained in the last few pages that i haven't read yet? if not, can you explain how you got there? (if yes, then wait for me to finish dinner)

pedit: no, that's fair
i'm just surprised those narrative points are of same weight to you, if that makes sense?

okay well i am trying to be open minded here

let me try to run it down:

points for town!coral:
- the claim is a very unusual/out of the box one to set up as scum and i'm not sure why scum would play it that way
- i'm not sure scum responds to my pressure the way she has

points for scum!coral:
- bad read on her from phoenix
- awkward progression on phoe/galron
- has come acros very artificial at times
- setup sort of feels like it makes sense if there's a scum neighborizer and a town backup (this is a pure guess on my part it just feels like something that 'fits')

points for town!datisi:
- pushed on phoenix early
- you had a similar read to me on ari/ausuka

points for scum!datisi:
- your progression on galron wasn't as strong as i remembered it being
- a lot of your takes on day 1 i just didn't agree with or didn't see where the reasoning was coming from
- it felt like you were nitpicking me to start today and i think that's +scum for you
- ~secret tell~ i dont want to explain if its right

[scamper]

I did lightly townread you for essentially this in the early game, that you didn't feel any need to make things up further. But... I'm not exactly sure how best to put this, but I do think that you could easily get frustrated as scum at feeling like your effort is being dismissed. I guess I can accept though that as scum you would be more likely to want to put in work to look town through your explanations, especially without any completed town games on this account.

i really don't get frustrated as scum that way i know this is unverifiable self-meta but i basically walk into every game with a red role pm confident i can win it and say what i need to to sway people. i think the best argument would again be that i was doing it strategically

This is a bit more convincing to me. I thought that you would want me in ELO since you can just continue your push on me that you've had all game, but after the hood reveal I expect that you would probably be worried that Datisi isn't going to vote me, and might then fight harder to keep Meg alive.

i think thatsa fair and believable mindset if you are town because i can see, from your end, getting exasperated with the person tunneling you and believing you are so obviously town that only scum would be unable to see it. and i think to some extent that was what you meant with the idea that i would not re-evaluate you? idk if i got that right, let me know.

to me a lot of your responses have been very

reasonable

to me in that you have basically said "fair enough but i disagree with so and so" but have not really gone about proving to me why i am wrong in my read. and thats fine. maybe its your playstyle, maybe you just thought it was a waste of time. but at the time i thought it was potentially scum!indicative and certainly didn't give me cause to reconsider.

but the thing about that is, at any rate, you have to take your ego out of it and not be upset at me misreading you if you're town. because i think if you follow my logic it makes sense for me even if you know its wrong, and also i just dont think its good play as scum to be hard tunneling you when seemingly the entire game wont bite on the push. and i am, right now, considering all possibilities and contemplating a town!you world and giving you every opportunity to show me why you are town


i will readily admit at the moment of the hood reveal i *was* worried that one of you/datisi would vote me, but from a town pov, in that the town in you would be too pocketed to evaluate me fairly. i dont think thats an unreasonable concern but its probably what i would be playing into as scum here.

[scamper]

- ~secret tell~ i dont want to explain if its right

I hate that my immediate reaction to this is to believe it

why must my brain do this to me

lol

i mean the thing is singular posts like that are the easiest to fake and you should absolutely not be betting the game on something like that. but i am town and i feel like i should be able to get you there if you are town

[scamper]

i mean i wouldnt mind if you did because it would at least make life easier for me but its not good process

[scamper]

pointless no but as scum you are going to want to feel like you are justifying pushing me. if you are town of course you are trying to get a read on me etc etc.

but i thought you going back specifically to say "here are all the posts scamper made about meg, scamper didn't explain his read on meg enough!!" was a nitpicky type of analysis that i can see coming from scum!you

[scamper]

I don't think that your push on me is that relevant to my evaluation of your alignment because I could see it coming from either direction.

At the start of the day I was feeling pretty convinced you were scum, actually. I expected that if you're town then you would give things a fair evaluation and wouldn't hard tunnel, although I would still guess that you'd likely in the end still come back to voting me.

?

(not trying to pull a gotcha, just trying to understand how these two statements connect)

[scamper]

and i don't think i see how you can argue that the fact you went back to look for reasons to townread me, then realized there are some reasons to scumread me is a *towntell* for you here, considering it was possible i was one of the people you were gonna have to push in yeetlo (idr if this was before or after ausuka was revealed conftown, but it doesn't really matter i think as you were basically locktown on them anyway)

i dont think the action itself is inherently a towntell but i think the way i went about it is evidence that i am *really thinking* about the game and actually trying to scumhunt rather than having the answers laid out before me

[scamper]

there are quite a few comments that i want to make about my own play and my idea of scumplay, at the comments about my towncases, but that's self meta that i don't think is going to be helpful

idk, i have a bad habit of getting tunneled

but my actual mindset at the start of the day was: i was right, i'm annoyed cuz no one listened to me, i expect both of you to turn against me cuz

whoever was scum was very much setting up for that pivot yesterday

, i just want someone to vote me b/c i hate being the one to decide in this situation


but i will say regardless of whatever my words might seem like they're implying i'm rereading and re-evaluating with an open mind

how is the bolded something you came to the conclusion of? specifically in the context of my play.

because it felt like to a significant extent i was the odd one out of the group yesterday, i wasnt really trusted or being responded to much as the 3 of you consolidated on meg and usually those dynamics inevitably end up playing out as the person in the out-group getting voted out in 3p

and i dont really think i was wrong in that assessment

[scamper]

My expectation at the start of the day was:
- scamper is probably scum. scum scamper has multiple possible approaches to the day. they could continue tunneling me at the start and just push that hard, or they could try to feel things out in order to predict who of me and datisi is more likely to vote the other and position themselves towards that angle (this is what I think you are currently doing, if you're scum)
- if scamper is town, scamper will probably not vote anyone right away, and will try to fairly evaluate both options (this would be where you're at right now if you're town). town scamper will probably, in the end, be more inclined to stick with their prior read, which would be me. that is by no means a guaranteed thing, but it's what I would predict

I don't think you are hard tunneling me today, and didn't originally either. I think that's the part that was unclear.

okay, that makes more sense. my reading of the second quote was was that it aws saying "i was pretty convinced you were scum BECAUSE if you were town you would give things a fair evaluation and wouldn't tunnel"

[scamper]

I thought you were scum due to my day 1 reread and am no longer as convinced on that point, but I will still go into the things that I saw... maybe later once Datisi is asleep and there's less real time interaction happening.

you're just waiting til he's not around so he can't interject i'm on to u


no but seriously, would like to hear it any time, i have to leave to eat dinner soon anyway

[scamper]

sure thing, no problem, just want to understand you thought process

[scamper]

Spoiler:

VOTE: meg

i think i wanna start here. i disliked some of their posts, and also the jump on galron in retrospect looks kinda weird. idk it's midnight, i'm trusting my past self right now.

ari(gamma)/ausuka/probscamper still town on play. and i think xayah is Town, Actually. i don't think scum!her, upon seeing galron be about to go down, starts putting me and ausuka oin her most bottom tier, because, uh. i really don't think that we're viable executions here.

coral i need to take a second look at too, i guess. coming tomorrow before my shift. most likely.

Xayah is my thought for partner atm. I feel like the 180 last minute feels like scum trying to catch the bus last minute.
The done kill is interesting, haven't considered the ramifications yet.

Is it overthinking to call this towny? I mean I'm not sure scum meg plays exactly this way. Like, definitely I can see them townreading scamper, but it feels like they're placing more of an emphasis on towncasing scamper vs scumcasimg xayah, whereas I feel like it's more intuitive for scum to do it in reverse. Does that make sense?

ehh... i lowkey got tmi vibes from their towncase post on scamper. because scum rn has to have reads anyway, and i think (1) it's easier to make correct townreads than scumreads, (2) it's easier to stay consistent with them, especially if you're towncasing someone who obviously isn't among the first people on the chopping block

i feel like it's meg because their play kind of just *fits* with what i'd assume buddy-with-galron would be doing. his slot started getting negative attention pretty early on in the game. your partner going down d1 is bad, in a micro normal it's Bad because you could just get fucked over with tprs. but i don't think there was anything to actually townread galron *on*, so what do you do? you hope for distractions. you stir up shit and hope people go to other slots. and i'm reminded now that meg did that both with ari in ausuka/ari, and with scamper.

this usually wouldn't be an issue by itself, but the fact that the arguments they've made about those two were not very good and were consistently getting called out as not very good and just kinda feel inflammatory is hm.

like, i guESS it's possible the partner was just not here and/or not doing anything to stop the wagon but i feel like it's somewhat unlikely both scum just decided to flop because. idk because the universe doesn't like me that much.

i'm not mad??? i'm not even 100% on meg being scum bc if i were i would be pushing much more strongly there. i'm just trying to Solve The Game, sorry if i came off condescending or something, wasn't my intention

@meg, can you give me some examples of coral posts that you found analytically/nuancedly townie?

i just half-read through her iso, and while her posts aren't

bad

, i don't think i've seen anything that struck me as "this is analytical in a way that i really struggle seeing scum fake this". i don't think she's scum for it obviously, but it does make me wanna see more elaboration on the claim she's town for it.

i do think 476 and 482 (calling ari/ausuka/meg townie when they were shitfighting) are +town, considering that galron was already getting suspicion on him, and ausuka had just called out more of his posts. like, coral was at the time voting xayah, and i don't think that wagon was very likely to go though. and she also said she's still suspicious of don, which had a bit more chance to go though, but galron was already voting there and i don't think(?) scum is eager to double up like that in that gamestate. and the next person she'd logically push would be galron, based on 279.

this also strikes me as a counterintuitive progression to have as scum with galron. it doesn't help galron, it doesn't look good as a bus.

i wish i was confident enough on xayah!town to try to hijack the thread, but i'm not. maybe i'm wrong. even if i'm not wrong, this flip is probably needed anyway.

i am interested in hearing xayah's thoughts on scamper, though. and if she has meta on gamma, i'm likely to just locktown that slot even further (and then blame xayah if we lose because of it).

mmm
gut is telling me it is Probably Just Meg Still, but

i really wanna see what meg and scamper put out first
and i wanna properly revisit a few events on day one to make sure i'm not retconning them in my mind

maybe massclaim today too, i'll decide tomorrow

ok off to bed, see ya in the morning

dats, for having a non-vt result on meg, it feels like you never really pressured them strongly or asked them to claim or tried to persuade other people on the read, and i have to ask why you didnt push that harder? i realize a non-vt from a nea is not a true guilty but on a reread i couldnt help but feel your approach was oddly lackadaisical

[scamper]

yeah i'll try to get to this stuff but it is a lot to address and i have real life obligations to take care of first


i will say that my thinking is if none of us want to vote first (and it seems like none of us want to vote first) than we can at least have people say who they want to vote first, and if two of us agree then the 3rd person has to be the one to place a vote

[scamper]

Spoiler:

VOTE: meg

i think i wanna start here. i disliked some of their posts, and also the jump on galron in retrospect looks kinda weird. idk it's midnight, i'm trusting my past self right now.

ari(gamma)/ausuka/probscamper still town on play. and i think xayah is Town, Actually. i don't think scum!her, upon seeing galron be about to go down, starts putting me and ausuka oin her most bottom tier, because, uh. i really don't think that we're viable executions here.

coral i need to take a second look at too, i guess. coming tomorrow before my shift. most likely.

Xayah is my thought for partner atm. I feel like the 180 last minute feels like scum trying to catch the bus last minute.
The done kill is interesting, haven't considered the ramifications yet.

Is it overthinking to call this towny? I mean I'm not sure scum meg plays exactly this way. Like, definitely I can see them townreading scamper, but it feels like they're placing more of an emphasis on towncasing scamper vs scumcasimg xayah, whereas I feel like it's more intuitive for scum to do it in reverse. Does that make sense?

ehh... i lowkey got tmi vibes from their towncase post on scamper. because scum rn has to have reads anyway, and i think (1) it's easier to make correct townreads than scumreads, (2) it's easier to stay consistent with them, especially if you're towncasing someone who obviously isn't among the first people on the chopping block

i feel like it's meg because their play kind of just *fits* with what i'd assume buddy-with-galron would be doing. his slot started getting negative attention pretty early on in the game. your partner going down d1 is bad, in a micro normal it's Bad because you could just get fucked over with tprs. but i don't think there was anything to actually townread galron *on*, so what do you do? you hope for distractions. you stir up shit and hope people go to other slots. and i'm reminded now that meg did that both with ari in ausuka/ari, and with scamper.

this usually wouldn't be an issue by itself, but the fact that the arguments they've made about those two were not very good and were consistently getting called out as not very good and just kinda feel inflammatory is hm.

like, i guESS it's possible the partner was just not here and/or not doing anything to stop the wagon but i feel like it's somewhat unlikely both scum just decided to flop because. idk because the universe doesn't like me that much.

i'm not mad??? i'm not even 100% on meg being scum bc if i were i would be pushing much more strongly there. i'm just trying to Solve The Game, sorry if i came off condescending or something, wasn't my intention

@meg, can you give me some examples of coral posts that you found analytically/nuancedly townie?

i just half-read through her iso, and while her posts aren't

bad

, i don't think i've seen anything that struck me as "this is analytical in a way that i really struggle seeing scum fake this". i don't think she's scum for it obviously, but it does make me wanna see more elaboration on the claim she's town for it.

i do think 476 and 482 (calling ari/ausuka/meg townie when they were shitfighting) are +town, considering that galron was already getting suspicion on him, and ausuka had just called out more of his posts. like, coral was at the time voting xayah, and i don't think that wagon was very likely to go though. and she also said she's still suspicious of don, which had a bit more chance to go though, but galron was already voting there and i don't think(?) scum is eager to double up like that in that gamestate. and the next person she'd logically push would be galron, based on 279.

this also strikes me as a counterintuitive progression to have as scum with galron. it doesn't help galron, it doesn't look good as a bus.

i wish i was confident enough on xayah!town to try to hijack the thread, but i'm not. maybe i'm wrong. even if i'm not wrong, this flip is probably needed anyway.

i am interested in hearing xayah's thoughts on scamper, though. and if she has meta on gamma, i'm likely to just locktown that slot even further (and then blame xayah if we lose because of it).

mmm
gut is telling me it is Probably Just Meg Still, but

i really wanna see what meg and scamper put out first
and i wanna properly revisit a few events on day one to make sure i'm not retconning them in my mind

maybe massclaim today too, i'll decide tomorrow

ok off to bed, see ya in the morning

dats, for having a non-vt result on meg, it feels like you never really pressured them strongly or asked them to claim or tried to persuade other people on the read, and i have to ask why you didnt push that harder? i realize a non-vt from a nea is not a true guilty but on a reread i couldnt help but feel your approach was oddly lackadaisical

i did not want to make it obvious that my read on meg is informed with a result, because if they are scum and realized that, they would probably be trying to guess what kind of guilty i have and claim a role that explains it

like, if i out of the blue asked them to claim, that probably doesn't end well, whether they're town or scum

i was still trying to sort them with my result because i really did not want to shitpush a power role into claiming and i was trying to guess how hard i wanna go after them

also, those two quotes happened after meg softed/claimed non-vt so idk why you're including them

this is all from iso so i couldn't check for context necessarily but wanted to check your thought process here because i wasn't sure if the actions necessarily fit the claim

[scamper]

This is where both scamper and Datisi's positioning towards Galron kinda flip. Galron has some entrance posts, Xayah and Datisi think they are at least decent, and Datisi moves his vote off, onto me. scamper then votes Galron in 259, criticizing the entrance.

scamper's switch onto Galron here is something that actually drew my attention when I was first looking back at things either night 1 or night 2. Phoenix could be written off as newbie and he efforts enough to probably dodge being eliminated day 1, although he would likely still be a candidate. Galron, though... in this playerlist, with Datisi and Ausuka as relatively charismatic players already suspicious of the slot, and Ari sheeping Datisi... Galron isn't going to post enough to get townread here, and in all likelihood will just die. scamper knows all this, and seeing two people call the entrance good for bad reasons, could have seen an opportunity here to jump in and pressure and get ahead of things, looking like they are going against the grain of town consensus onto scum. Of course, it's also possible that Datisi scum would want to back off for the same reason but opposite conclusion, realizing that if he wants a town elim day 1, he should find somewhere else to push quickly. Both possibilities are believable at this point.

i awsnt to point out this bit because the logic here is really strange to me

because when i was rereading, i felt like that was the sequence that was *most* +town for me. with a fresh replacement in the slot, and a bunch of people townreading him for bad reasons, that is the perfect opportunity to get eyes off the slot, and i do the opposite of that. i go in on the attack, i directly criticize galrons reasoning, i dispute people saying his posts were good. i dont do that as scum if i dont have to. in the mini normal, while i pushed on johnny for lurking excessively, i found excuses to unvote him if i could, when people were wrongly townreading him i mostly let it happen - i think i said i was unsure on him a few times but i didnt *directly attack him**. i won bus if i dont have to and that is especially true in a micro cuz you can lose the game thru night actions after a day 1 scumflip. so in this position i think attacking galron is clearly +town or should be seen as such.

(theres also a little thing about how galron pushing don was technically in defense of me and how i dont really think he has the guts to defend a partner like that,and how i was suspicious of don there (i think) but immediately chose to attack galron instead because his reasoning was bad. but those are smaller points that may not be as convincing).


so what i find puzzling is you examine tha same sequence and your first interpretation of it is to assign *scum* motivation to it, by suggesting i am trying to "get ahead of things" by opposing town consensus and pushing on galron. and to me that is a really weird and counter-intuitive conclusion to reach? like anything of course can be a bus. and from your pov one of us has to have bussed. but to go "this person was pushing scum against thread consensus so they were probably trying to get ahead of things" just doesn't make much sense to me. why can't i just be town who correctly scumread galron's entrance? and if i'm "going against thread consensus" what am i trying to get "ahead" of, exactly? you act like the slot was destined to die because datisi was scumreading it, but datisi was one of the people who backed off because of galron's entrance. so this really doesnt make sense to me...

[scamper]

Next there's a lot of back and forth with Ari thinking that Ausuka and Datisi are scum, Ausuka voting Ari (putting her at 3 votes), Don kind of existing in the conversation and seeming to agree with Ari. Datisi and scamper then both townread Ari, so no real difference there. scamper then starts suspecting and pushing on Don starting around 418, and continuing with 423, 431, 435, and 450. In 458, they add a suspicion of Datisi, and then unvote Galron since he doesn't fit in teams that they see.

Ignoring Ari vs Meg since it isn't really relevant here. scamper gets into it with Meg a bit as well, sometimes kinda suspects, mostly is just annoyed. Right after this is where thread sentiment starts to shift towards Galron again, with Ausuka re-voting in 564, Datisi reaffirming his suspicion in 583, and me mentioning my growing suspicion there in 595.

The mistake I made earlier was thinking that scamper didn't ever attempt to find a town elim as an alternative to Galron, because I only looked at where they voted, on Datisi and Meg. But they laid far more groundwork on Don, continuing here with 612 and 615, trying to convince Ausuka of the case. I think that there was enough latent suspicion of Don that scum could see him as the most likely miselim here, and it's something that I missed until I looked back overnight. scamper was the one who did most of the heavy lifting for the case, pushing people on that direction from the sidelines, pushing down on townreads, and generally trying to prod things in that direction.

i definitely did turn around to suspecting don at that point because i disagreed so heavily with his reasoning about ne of the most active players having to be scum and i was *so* invested in ari-town that him pushing on her felt really slimy, because scum need elims to in he game and are going to want to discredit a tilt-clear like that. i was maybe a bit myopic but i didnt see how a townie could look at how ari played that sequence and see her as scum. i also felt like the fact that he kept making gestures at writing cases, but never actully getting around to finishing them was +scum. if he had actually gone for the throat on me and presented a scumcase i probably would have townread him for it for the overconfidence, but the fact he said he was going to do it and backed off made me think he might have seen me as an easy push at first and then realized i wasnt going to go down so easily, so he backed off. when he did similar later i sniped at him for it

ti that point, i was definitely finding don scummy but i wasn't prepared to push him, and i dont really remember why. i think my main priority was on sorting datisi and there was either something i wanted to hear from don on or some reason i had doubts but i never felt like i should be going after don directly. i think if i wanted to i probably could have built a case on him and might have made him a serious push as scum.

actually on reflection what i *might* have been thinking was that don and galron were very unlikely to be s/s, so the bset thing i could possibly do is solve outside that and find the other scum because baed on my reads there was a decent chance of a scum between them. but this is theoretical, i dont remember exactly what i was thinking however many weeks ago b/c i dont take notes

i mean, you can say i was "laying groundwork" or whatever and that is probably a little close to how i played scum in my last game, i would suggest someone as a suspect and let town do the work, but i think in this game i would have realized i needed to make actual pushes to get a wagon thru. maybe i wouldnt have. idk. but i think if i *wanted* to flip don i wuld have gone for it rather than doing what i did. a lot of my day 1 was wrapped up in trying to play like skitter and that included me voting dats but not raelly pushing him, just wantig to talk to him. i think i was playing in a way that was pretty un-tactical as scum

[scamper]

which is... very not doing anything to move things towards Don. It's even giving a convincing reason to just elim Galron. Datisi as scum would easily have room here to take advantage of scamper's Don case to push Don harder himself. He had plenty of ammunition. But despite exploring that direction a little bit, he didn't go for it. And his vote on Galron here is pretty much the nail in the coffin. Datisi was kind of the swing vote here, if he and/or Ausuka had ended up landing on Don, the end of day 1 looks very different.

this is also...really odd because it presupposed don was the viable scum driven counterwagon here when...the ones pushing it were only galron and me, sort of? and the idea that scum!tisi would push that vote and not doing so and taking any other route is towny is just weird to me

and i did think at the time that datisi moving momentum back toward galron was +town, but he didnt really agitate for other people to vote galron. i guess you could say from the tenor of his catchup posts he could have easily made a push on don instead and so the decision and timing is good but if you look at the wagon state it wasnt necessarily a guarantee people would join there. i guess what im saying is while i think its a good look for datisi but you are treating the vote as far more influential than i feel it actually was

[scamper]

i feel kind of the opposite way tbh, it feels like a lot of what he says is so underhanded like he's just trying to keep options open

I mean, maybe? Idk he just feels like he's really feeling that he's connecting the dots and solving the mystery even when I don't think he's making any sense. If that makes sense. Idk it's late.

Pedit: ok I guess I could see that?

i haven't had that feeling but idk how much i want to get into it right now

yeah i cannot remember *why* i said this, at all. but while i greatly disliked dons posting, in part because he was pushing ari and ausuka who i very strongly townread, i held back from going all-in on scumcasing him. there was a part of me that did not want to go all out going after him no matter how much i disliked him and i think had i really wanted to i could have scumcased him

[scamper]

scamper then has their argument with Meg. At the end of it, they say they want to vote Galron but doesn't want to E-1, so Meg does it. Which... probably was unexpected, actually, since they were previously voting scamper, just had a huge argument with them, and then scamper said that they wanted to vote Galron. It seems pretty possible to me that the argument could have been intentional from scum scamper, trying to draw Meg's attention and keep their vote from compromising on Galron (which they said they were willing to do in 626) due to the hope that they wouldn't want to work together with scamper.

again this is just really weird thinking because it seems to be only looking from my actions thru the lens of why i could be doing it as scum and not assessing the possibility of whether i could do it as town and which is more likely to have happened

the idea that i get into a heated thread bloating argument with someone where i accuse them of being disingenuous as a scum tactic to keep them from voting my teammate is just...rather far fetched? personally when i get into arguments as scum its because i want to discredit my attacker and maybe make things so tedious that people will tune out because hey dont awnt to hear anymore of us, so the arguments against me will fall on deaf ears. i think u could very plausibly think that was what i was doing here and i wouldn't have a problem with it. i think if i was scum i would have actually tried to push meg strongly rather than just staking potshots at them and implying they are bad. i did bbriefly make a vote on them but it was an emotionalone and i retracted it later, i would have no problem going full bore calling meg lockscum if i was scum. but since i am town my job is to acually try to figure out peoples alignment and not just blindly try to kill them because they displease me


so again, the thought that i got into an argument with meg *to keep their vote off galron* is just bizarre to me

[scamper]

2) Datisi switching off Galron when he replaces in, and scamper switching onto Galron. Both could be scum-motivated. The most important thing here to me is that Datisi's switch off mostly only makes sense if he is then afterwards trying to case people and move things towards a town elimination.

the thing is, hypothetically, does scum!tisi need to actually push townies that much after moving off galron? if no one is pushing him and people are giving his partner some grace he can stay in the background and not have to push anyone. he called ari/ausuka/meg townie but called everyone else muddy so its not like he was cutting off his options.

3) scamper laying the groundwork for a Don elimination. I think this looks especially bad with Galron showing up clearly thinking that a Don elim is likely. But even without that, the suspicion comes at a convenient time, they try to gather others to their cause, all while voting elsewhere in a way that looks like they're just sorting or emotional voting (on Datisi and Meg, respectively). All along, though, the main trajectory is towards allowing a Don push to be possible. If there were more options of who could be scum beyond just these two, I might consider how scamper as scum maybe could have gone all in to push Don harder and yet didn't, but the thing is...

i already addressed this but again, the idea tht i somehow look worse from galron thinking a don elimination is likely is just weird to me. like, does scum think someone is a good elim target because their buddy is pushing it? what townies support were we actually counting on? why didnt i try to actually wagon him or convince anyone?

4) ...Datisi did far less in terms of pushing town. Look at his ISO between the point where he unvoted Galron (228) and when he re-voted (701). I can't find any serious attempt to push town there. Even the vote on me is for a small reason, is mostly for pressure, and isn't really ever pursued any further. There's a lot of townreads of people, discussion, inquiries, pushing back on the scumreads people have on town. It all just looks like town trying to solve the game to me. I don't see any underlying agenda of someone who needs to find a way to eliminate town. When it gets to the point in the game where it looks like Don is a possible alternative, Datisi does find a couple reasons to be suspicious there, and then... votes for Galron. He doesn't take the town miselim that's sitting in front of him, he goes back to scum. He doesn't ever case or push anyone. And it's not like he's committed to the bus the whole time, he doesn't really ever take any efforts to make his position around the wagon look towny either.

i mean, the thing is as scum sometimse its beneficial to not want to get your hands dirty, so i'm not really sure this all is as clearing as you are treating it, at all

and i feel like...my entire approach to dats was the same, it was just for pressure/because i wanted to sort him, i think by that point in time i had developed a lot of townreads as well, you ar treating us as though are actions were wildly different and apart from me getting into a figh with meg i dont think they were...

[scamper]

and scamper, I obviously don't expect a response from you on everything. if you are town who thinks that I'm town who has come to the wrong conclusions, what I would most like to hear from you is why you think my reasons are flawed for thinking Datisi's play day 1 doesn't make sense if he's scum, and what you think his plans and motivations were

i'm not gonna do that. my goal right now is not to sell you on scum!datisi, cuz i am still not sure if he is...

i asked you to explain why you thought day 1 made me more likely to be scum because i wanted to see your thinking so i could better sort you. i can't say i felt your responses were all that helpful...

[scamper]

loved the coral walls, though that may be because they're calling me town

in more seriousness, the part that stood out to me is 1541. the rest of the case i could more easily see coming from scum, since it's made in a retelling-day-1 sort of way. but 1541 is a read that... well i don't think it's very convincing because it's making assumptions that don't have to be correct and might not even be likely to be correct, but the

creativity

of that read is something i rarely see from scum. not just because it's rarely convincing to town, but because they simply don't think of stuff like that. obviously ymmv based on meta, but it's +town.

reading the rest of the case reminded me of something else, though...

i actually think that read is just really bad and ridiculous

because first of all it's implying a degree of communication that rarely happens in scum PTs, and secondly its trying me to him because we both were pushig don to some extent. and that doesnt really make sense. if i am pushing a don elim to that point i have done a really poor job actually persuading anyone. so the idea that i go and tell galron "dw, i got this, we can kill don, just keep pushing him" is ??? to me.

and like, coral has played scum before. she knows this is not how scum teams operate or how they communicate. this doesnt really make sense.

[scamper]

scamper, did anything ever come from 1441?

i didn't answer it because i had't finished checking open 857. and i kind of think you exaggerate the extent to how "attention-grabby" your push on penguin was that game but i also think you have no reason to lie about that this game and its likely you just remembered it different. its true you were on phoe early bu i dont think its *impossible* for you tp pressure a teammate early in a game either

and, based on you saying how "nitpicking is +scum from me" and apparently having secret tells on me, i take it you're decently familiar with my scumgame. how is your read on my overall play this game influenced by meta? and ik you said my interactions w galron weren't as strong as you remembered them, but 1271 is the only negative i see there and you said yourself those quotes were out of context, have you gone back to check them?

i think it's obviousl influenced that way, kind of unavoidably. i think the hard thing for me is i dont really remember what town!you looks like (obv there was the mini normal but having that perspective as scum warps things and you were playing that weirdly early on anyway

i think i checked but never write anything about it so i checked again. there was some vague anti-galron sentiment in the prior pages from ari (before she went off at meg, meg mentioned not liking his play, i had backed off pushign him for worldbuilding reasons, and ausuka was redoubling her push on galron there. so again while i think its a good look i dont think its *definitely unpartnered*

[scamper]

i mean, the thing is as scum sometimse its beneficial to not want to get your hands dirty, so i'm not really sure this all is as clearing as you are treating it, at all

do you think *in this scenario*, with galron being in the position that he was, it would've been beneficial?

i dunno

maybe you don't want to look too hard like youre trying to save him. but he was definitely not going to posting enough to get townread. there were definitely enough tvt fights going that you *could* have exploited them. but i dont necessarily like to think about things in terms of what somene *could* have done but rather what they actually *did* and what the motives for it aer

[scamper]

259 (and galron's response in 285) feel like they should be +town for scamper, because i feel like scamper would've coached galron much better on how to respond to that and how to make that interaction seem less-partnery, while i can more easily see coral telling galron something along the lines of "tell scamper you see things differently and ask why does that make you mafia"

tbf again both of u are like, overestimating the extent of scum communication. i dont get that hands on unless my partner is a really struggling newbie and galron is not that. usually people just kind of operate autonomously with maybe a little discussion on broad strategy but they dont pre-plan the details of interactions like that. you can see how i communicated with johnny in the mini normal pt, we hardly discussed fine points like that

i would say him responding to me in that way is because he knows i am town but i ajm clearly biased and i dont think a single line is that likely to be compelling evidence

[scamper]

i mean that's fair, i'm just saying

you say that it could be beneficial for scum to hang back sometimes

what do you think is the possible benefit for scumtisi to be doing that then?

i would say, hypothetically, in that situation, if you are scum, you are hanging back and staying out of the fray while the thread gets consumed by tvt fights and hoping that one of them gets big enugh that it leads to an elim. thats my speculation, anyway

[scamper]

@scamper, how strongly were you scumreading don around page 28? because your vote is still on me (and it's not doing much there), and it seems don's somewhat decently being scumread by the thread, any reason you didn't vote him at the time?

i already sort of answered this in my responses to coral: i dont really remember "how strongly" i was scumreading don at the time, because i dont necessarily keep track of such things, and i definitely dont keep an ordered ranking of players in my head or assign weighted values to them or anything.

what i can tell you, in exacting detail, is WHY i was scumreading don because i recall every bit of that and i think its one of the surest things that makes me town, because i have that internal thought process i can call back on here.

so to explain that:

- i thought his gamestate read of scum being in you/ausuka/ari was an obvious fallacy

- he was pushing ari/ausuka, two slots i thought were clearly town, in ways that felt were very underhanded/disingenuous

- he did things like promising cases and not delivering, on me and then on ausuka, which felt like a scum thing to me because i have seen scm procrastinate on delivering content before, and usually when townies are making a case, they just *do* it, they dont make a show of how they are writing a case and are going to deliver it soon. i thought him acting like he had arguments but nt actually presenting them could be scum struggling to manufacture a credible push.


looking at the pages where that took place, it looks like i was interacting with you because i suspected you but didn't wanna flip you. i was doubting my scumread on you a bit based on your responses but didnt know what to do with my vote. i was pretty annoyed at ari getting tilted out of the game and ended up making a pretty emotional vote on meg. but prior to that i was still questioning don, i think i might have been still trying to sort him, or waiting for him to produce more content? that, or i had the sense that enough people were defending him that he wasnt a likely wagon. i think when i cleared my head from fighting with meg it seemed clear to me that galron was the best vote given he wasnt contributing at all and was in my poe. but even then im not sure it was me wanting to vote him because i thought he was scum as much as i wanted to get rid of him for not doing anything. i think he only became clearly scum when he claimed rolecop and vanished.

[scamper]

and i kind of think you exaggerate the extent to how "attention-grabby" your push on penguin was that game but i also think you have no reason to lie about that this game and its likely you just remembered it different. its true you were on phoe early bu i dont think its *impossible* for you tp pressure a teammate early in a game either

i had legit never done the "this is the vc, i want EVERYONE to give thoughts and stances" and whatever bs i did there, which is what i am thinking of, so i wouldn't say i'm exaggerating

i think you may be talking about two different things here bc pressuring a teammate is one thing, but actually getting on him (with intent to yeet, which i'm assuming is implied here) is another thing

like i am definitely capable of pressuring buddies early as scum

okay, fair enuf

in my reread of that game it was moreso that you at first just voted penguin silently and then added stuff on later but the reasons werent very strong (because there couldnt be strong reasons because he didnt do a lot) but the point about the vc and wanting people to make stances and that being very showy makes sense

[scamper]

I think that a point that scamper criticized, about how I had a wide candidate list in 279 and then over time I gradually found reasons to townread all of those people except for Galron or Xayah, while also making no case or push on Xayah, is actually pretty +town for me. I don't see how that advances scum wincon at all.

i would not say you "gradually found" reasons to townread those people, or if you did, it did not show up visibly in the thread. it read more like you were setting up alternatives until they no longer became viable wagons. show me where you found reasons to townread don, ari, or me?

[scamper]

like you can say: i narrowed down my suspects via process of elimination to arrive at galron being scum.

but from what is visible in the thread i don't see that happening, and that also coincides with the rest of the thread starting to encircle galron for not doing anything. so it seems fairly convenient in terms of its timing especially with you not having been very active to that point

[scamper]

I think that a point that scamper criticized, about how I had a wide candidate list in 279 and then over time I gradually found reasons to townread all of those people except for Galron or Xayah, while also making no case or push on Xayah, is actually pretty +town for me. I don't see how that advances scum wincon at all.

i would not say you "gradually found" reasons to townread those people, or if you did, it did not show up visibly in the thread. it read more like you were setting up alternatives until they no longer became viable wagons. show me where you found reasons to townread don, ari, or me?

like you can say: i narrowed down my suspects via process of elimination to arrive at galron being scum.

but from what is visible in the thread i don't see that happening, and that also coincides with the rest of the thread starting to encircle galron for not doing anything. so it seems fairly convenient in terms of its timing especially with you not having been very active to that point

I think I went over this in 1468 with Datisi. If you have more questions beyond what's answered in that though, let me know!

all right. that tracks, at least. i'm not sure i buy it but it's plausible

[scamper]

For yours, some of the pressure is not as strong as it looks since two people just backed off Galron. You have some room to work with. You also later find a reason to back off Galron while still finding him scummy (he isn't paired with anyone else you're suspecting, which is very clever, and you also, i've just realized, you don't have to worry about anyone calling you out for relying on preflips/hero solves since you have no completed town games to compare to). You then proceed to push elsewhere.

i mean, againi think this is weirdly over-elaborateand does not take full consideration of whether the play makes sense tactically. i do think me pulling my vote off galron is not soething i should be claered for and my timing of doing so is like something i would do as scum. but the initial push is just suicidally bad as scum. you are aguing "it was safe because other peole backed off galron"> but what if my callout makes them change their minds? there is a risk with every distancing action you take that it can add momentum that spirals into an elim. pushing galron at that point time as distance carries a very real risk of him getting flipped if my arguments are actually persuasive.

reasoning like this comes across as you *wanting* to say i am scum more than having a logical thought process for it. that doesn't necessarily make you scum because town can do this sort of thing too (unfortunately) but it is frustrating to deal with.

[scamper]

i mean, you can say i was "laying groundwork" or whatever and that is probably a little close to how i played scum in my last game, i would suggest someone as a suspect and let town do the work, but i think in this game i would have realized i needed to make actual pushes to get a wagon thru. maybe i wouldnt have. idk. but i think if i *wanted* to flip don i wuld have gone for it rather than doing what i did. a lot of my day 1 was wrapped up in trying to play like skitter and that included me voting dats but not raelly pushing him, just wantig to talk to him. i think i was playing in a way that was pretty un-tactical as scum

Okay, but you still did more to push things towards a town elimination than either me or Datisi did. I like the bit about you getting wrapped up in playing like skitter, that's pretty funny (and kinda cute actually), and does explain a few things. I did think your vote on Datisi to try to talk to him was a little strange.

the thing is, obviously galrons partner did not succeed in saving him, so obviously scum did not play fully optimally. and if you argument was that i was trying to save him with what i did...couldnt i have tried to do a lot more than i actually did?

"we didnt do anything to help galron" is just not very compelling to me as a towncase because you dont always have the influence to make that happen. and to me it looked like you did try pushing on other people but didnt have the presence to actually push for a wagon, if you are scum. if datisi is scum he just didnt have other places he felt safe pushing

[scamper]

I don't think that you and Galron were the only two suspecting Don at all, though. He had a lot of early suspicion, I still had some left over, there was an argument that he had was Ausuka where Ausuka was finding him scummy, and he's also just kind of generally outside the pool of familiarity that it would be very difficult to eliminate within on day 1 (I would put you, me, ari, datisi, and ausuka in this group). Another possibility would be Meg, but me and Datisi townread them. Look at page 27. I think the sentiment there is obvious, and there's quite a bit of pressure towards Don.

i am pretty sure at that exact point in time you accuse me of trying to build momentum against him, ausuka was calling him towny and i was disputing it so its not like she was likely to vote him

[scamper]

i checked and she said her townread on don was evaporating but then when back to calling him town on the next page

still if i actually cared about trying to elim him as scum i wouldjust...vote him, not do what i did

[scamper]

Shrug. The point of me looking at that section is not to say that you are scum for it. In isolation, it's absolutely something that I would lean town on. The point was more about considering "is there any world where this makes sense as scumplay?", and I decided yes, I think there is. Maybe my reason is far-fetched and your reason is better. The point is that there exists a reason, and it's a believable enough reason, so it's something I can't clear you for. That wasn't very clear in my original post, but it is what I meant.

If I were smart (or scum) and cared about having a case that people wouldn't be able to pick apart for having weak reasons, I wouldn't include that. But it's part of my thought process and I like to share my full thought process as town and I just naively assume that in doing so my townie energy will shine through

i dunno it's just your logic is really bad and narrative twist-y and seems to be working from the conclusion i am scum rather than evaluating reasonably or thinking about things in a way i can understand. the idea that wouldn't have weak reasons as scum is, well, i guess you can claim you're able to argue perfectly but i don't think that anyone is

i hope this is just you pushing a case as scum here but i have been let down enough times that i cannot be sure

[scamper]

the thing is, obviously galrons partner did not succeed in saving him, so obviously scum did not play fully optimally. and if you argument was that i was trying to save him with what i did...couldnt i have tried to do a lot more than i actually did?

"we didnt do anything to help galron" is just not very compelling to me as a towncase because you dont always have the influence to make that happen. and to me it looked like you did try pushing on other people but didnt have the presence to actually push for a wagon, if you are scum. if datisi is scum he just didnt have other places he felt safe pushing

You could have, but that would be the first thing that people would look for if Galron did flip (which he almost certainly would at some point). You can see in the hood night 1 how I am very tempted to clear you for the fact that I felt you didn't push as hard as you could have on town. Doing that is what got you to ELO here. And yet you still did some, tried to feel things out to see if anything was viable, and looked In general like you weren't pushing anything hard yourself but were positioning to be ready to jump on any of the people who were the most likely alternatives, if town ever ended up pushing there. Unfortunately for you, they never really did.

You say it looks to you like I did try pushing on other people, who would that be?

xayah

[scamper]

scamper then has their argument with Meg. At the end of it, they say they want to vote Galron but doesn't want to E-1, so Meg does it. Which... probably was unexpected, actually, since they were previously voting scamper, just had a huge argument with them, and then scamper said that they wanted to vote Galron. It seems pretty possible to me that the argument could have been intentional from scum scamper, trying to draw Meg's attention and keep their vote from compromising on Galron (which they said they were willing to do in 626) due to the hope that they wouldn't want to work together with scamper.

Galron shows up with this post:

I'm not going to closely read the last 13 pages unless there's somehting I need to see. I did a skim through and I'm okay with limming donempire at this point. His whole e-1 thing doesn't read as genuine and his reliance on mech is easy to fake. I don't know who his buddies are but more votes on done please.

He clearly hasn't read things, but he probably has read the scum PT. And I would be willing to bet that somewhere in that scum PT is a post saying something along the lines of "i think i can get us an elim on don". That would be why Galron thinks that's where things are heading. The post, unfortunately for the scum team, looks awful, and is potentially game-losing if I'm right on this connection. I don't think that Datisi would be the one to make that post in the scum PT, because he had only 50 posts ago actively stepped away from the Don elim. scamper meanwhile has been setting things up for a Don elim for a while now. Predicting why Galron said that is the sort of speculation that I wouldn't want to bet the game on, but it is still a factor for me.

i just happened to look back on the context for this again and this is actually horrbile

you argument is that galron somehow was plugged into the scum pt enough to come in and think pushing for a don elim made sense

but contextually he had just been put to E-1 by meg after we had finished fighting and came in right to see that

do you really believe that what i would be talking about in the scum PT is "hey we should keep pushing don" and not about my slapfight with meg, or something to the effect of "hey wake up and actually play the game instead of being a lurky piece of crap, you're at E-1"?

i struggle to believe this is a real thought you had

[scamper]

i dont think its debatable that galron was obviously not paying attention because he is a lazy slug of a player and that is why he made that post

i think implying that post makes us likely to be partners is ridiculous past the point of being credible

[scamper]

i think it is reasonable enough to think he thought don was the best push or the one that at least made the most sense, seeing as how that is the vote he entered the game with (i am not sure galron even thinks that tactically tbh)

i think it is beyond ridiculous to assume that makes us likely to be partners given that i immediately crapped on his reasoning for don-scum when to that point i had been suspicious of don. if i wanted to start a wagon on don i dont shut down my partner pushing him because its just undermining what im working toward

the whole thing is conspiracy theory level reasoning from you - because i at one point in time suspected don, who galron was also pushing, we are likely to be partners. that is logic that probably wouldn't pass muster in the newbie queue.

[scamper]

I don't see any reason to think that you would have been planning for a Don elim at this point in the game.

so again isnt th simplest explanation that galron showed up, found something surface level he could push don on, and stopped paying attention to the game?

[scamper]

if "peak likelihood" of a don elim was...1 vote, from galron, and me, his alleged buddy, pushing him but NOT voting him, just criticizing his logic


thats not a compelling or believable case

[scamper]

no, ur point is that i suspected don and galron was pushing don so that makes us likely to be partners because galron made a post about how we should elim don so we must be communicating in the pt.

[scamper]

tell me what parts of that statement are an incorrect portrayal of your case

[scamper]

if thats the case then why are you doubling down on it?

[scamper]

i am arguing that i made no attempt to capitalize on it and the crux of your argument is scum!me was trying to miselim don to save galron

[scamper]

if thats the case then why are you doubling down on it?

Because you keep asking about it and I am a fool who is unable to stop trying to explain my thought process in a vain attempt to be understood

i dunno. my problem is while i dont think its outrageous to see me as scum here your thought process doesnt seem very good to me and has serious issues with its logic but you are either unwilling or unable to admit to these flaws when i criticize your thought process

[scamper]

this is one of those cases where its hard because i dont really have a baseline of if you normally think this way as town - granted the same is applicable to me

[scamper]

ok, sure thing

[scamper]

no, ur point is that i suspected don and galron was pushing don so that makes us likely to be partners because galron made a post about how we should elim don so we must be communicating in the pt.

This is clearly not my point because if these events were what happened then I wouldn't be talking about it since it's obviously a non-issue. Maybe that's what it looks like to you, but I think I've been clear enough already. One last time, though.

Galron entered, having not read the thread, seemingly under the impression that a Don elimination was imminent.

That's weird. That's unusual. Why would he think that? One possibility is that he simply was just thinking back to his prior push there, and hoped that by some miracle everyone would follow him. One possibility is that he skimmed a bit and saw some pushes towards Don, so he thought they were likely. One possibility is that his scum partner was trying to get Don elimmed, and mentioned that plan.

I'm not sure which possibility is most likely. Maybe #2 is. #3 seemed compelling to me, but I could just be wrong. You probably wouldn't have chosen this point to tear apart if it was exactly correct, so I kind of am doubting that it was at this point, but oh well.

In the case of #3, which possible scum partner was trying to get Don elimmed? scamper was, certainly more than Datisi.

Yes, it's a bit of a leap. I don't think it's by any means guaranteed to be what happened, and like I said when I first brought it up, it's not something I would ever want to base a read on. It is a minor factor for me, though, and I do think that the reasoning is fine.

i dunno it kinda seems to me th most obvious possibility is that galron just didnt care about the game and that is the simplest and most logical answer

[scamper]

i should say that last night my gut was screaming to me datisi was scum based on what i had reread. that was a feeling i hadnt really put into concrete words but its been hard to shake

the difficulty i have with you, have had with you this entire game, is that a lot of your posts just *sound* fake to me. i know thats unfair b/c theres not a lot you can do about that but i get that gut-level impression from reading your stuff

[scamper]

okay

i am not sure how high my confidence level is on it and i am trying to be a bit level here because if i go all in on calling him scum and its wrong it probably loses the game but i think there is a narrative that fits for him being scum. i will try to explain it when i have time to do so

i will say i think your framework for evaluating who is more likely to be scum is flawed (i mean, obviously i am biased). if you're scum you just saw me as the better push because i was unlikely to vote datisi. but if youre town i think the lens you are looking at things with is wrong and fundamentally flawed in how you try to differentiate players. again will try to get into that later.

[scamper]

jesus, this entire conversation about scumbuddy-told-galron-they're-getting-don-yeeted situation is making me wanna drink again

are either of you online? i obviously wanna hear what scamper has to say about his gut screaming at him, but also if we wanna do the fake-voting thing, i wanna do mine tonight since i will be going to sleep in an hour or so

coral, how well do you know my play / are familiar with my meta?

i'm here now sorry

we can probably decide this in the pt if you wanna do it, that person won' have to place the vote tonight

[scamper]

didnt know what to do with my vote

i don't have issues with the reasons you had to scumread don

i'm asking bc i think there is a clear scum benefit to not immediately voting him but consistently pressuring him (mainly, figuring out the availability of the don misyeet)

bc your vote was on me to ~sort me~, so i'm curious why you weren't using your vote on don the same way

see - im not actually sure not voting him has the benefit you are describing - i think if you actually vote someone and start a wagon other people have to react to it and state a willingness to join or not

and i think that if i had wanted to push a don wagon, regardless of alignment, i would have. i just didnt feel it was the right play. and its kind of wild to me that this is the thing im being questioned on the most although i guess with the lac of action otherwise in the game it makes sense

anyway to answer your question, its because while i felt i could do that with you and just engage you in a conversation don was a little more...aggressive and probably wouldnt take it that way. if i had to guess i was questioning him because i was still wavering between whether he really believed the stuff he was saying or not

[scamper]

we can probably decide this in the pt if you wanna do it, that person won' have to place the vote tonight

i don't think i get the difference btwn deciding it in the pt, or deciding it here

idk, i just thought it'd be cool

[scamper]

gm

just signing in, will get to answering things when i have time

[scamper]

i'd quote the post but i don't remember when it was made or in which thread

@scamper, you said something along the lines of not wanting to do real time interactions as scum; is my "scum!scamper would've tried to abuse the ari/aus shitfight instead of calming it down" idea correct?

i realistically do not know the answer to that. even if i thought an ari lim was viable at some point, pushing ari is a risky proposition as scum because ari is a scary player when she senses something is off, the kind of player i try to avoid attracting attention of as scum. so i don't necessarily know that i would try to "exploit" it, but i would maybe not try to intervene as much as i did. when a townie is aggressively pushing other townies - e.g. crescent or marcistar from last game, i am generally gonna let them keep doing that. i defended marci that game because i realized taking her to f5 was the winning play but i also showed skepticism toward her without really trying to talk her down from her tunnels. i think as scum i *maybe* let ari/aus keep rolling and let it take over the thread because that sort of conflict tends to sap the energy from everyone else in a game

[scamper]

i do have a reason im town but im not sure how convincing it will be, hopefully it doesnt matter

has this been outed yet?

i have said it though maybe not directly addressing this - as town im way more likely to let my emotions get the best of me and fly off the handle like i did at meg on day 1. i realize this is *completely* unverifiable without town meta on this account but as i said i was a lot more in control in the scumgame. i could fake that but i think in general in games its better to appear calm & rational unless you're really in a corner. i would maybe say an example of this is in that mini when corwin blew up at me, i just went something to the effect of "wow this is gross & unnecessary", because i knew he was digging his own grave by getting so angry in response to me. of course, he was the traitor, but at the time i *thought* he was (probably) town i had provoked into a raging meltdown. and i just kind of brushed off his attacks because they didn't mean anything to me.

i think the difference is that as town its a lot more irritating to me to be falsely accused, because i *know* i am innocent. and so when someone is pushing me for reasons i know are bad, i get heated because they are either scum intentionally misrepping me or town who is being a big illogical dummy. and so when meg was pushing me day 1 i couldnt resist trying to tear apart their arguments because i just wanted to do everything i could to shut them down. part of it was i was really trying to read them since they can be a quiet player otherwise but also i just

really

wanted to "win" the argument. and i think that passion only comes from town!me. as scum, i don't think i get that upset because - why would i? no one is all that likely to take megazumarill's reads all that seriously. its much easier to brush those type of accusations aside. its also the case where getting into a 1v1 like that isnt really tactically beneficial, its unlikely to persuade people and might even make them dislike me. better to discredit and minimize that type of player. but as town, im *not sure* of megs alignment, and so i have this paranoia where im vacillating between "this is a tunneled townie" and "this is scum making a bad faith push" and im not really sure and so i keep arguing trying to figure something out. its maybe not the wisest play but its hard for me to back down there.

so, again, not really verifiable but i dont lose control toward meg like i did this game as scum.

[scamper]

wow that is a lot of words. i feel like i might be damaging myself in the future talking about how scum!me thinks and operates but o well

[scamper]

god i wish i wasn't mentally tuning out scamper in that mini for basically the whole time after the d1 flip

hehe (:

scamper, if you were scum this game, how do you think you play d2?

that is also a difficult question, because i think as last scum standing your play and mindset is not all that different from playing as a town - its just that you know your win condition is to survive, but otherwise the arguments you make will be fundamentally similar, you look for people with the worst associatives to push, etc. i think *maybe* i realize a player like coral is too high a degree of difficulty to push, *or* i go all-out effort on casing her rather than being kind of hesitant on it, but other than that i really do not know what scum!me does differently here. i think the path to victory for me would not look all that different from how things have played out.

[scamper]

lmk if you have any more questions/want to know my thoughts

[scamper]

that might be cutting it a little tight because i'll be driving but i should be here before the deadline

[scamper]

or i can just say "im town im town im town im town im town im town im town im town im town im town im town im town im town im town" and hope u believe me

[scamper]

going to be leaving soon and will be unavailable for an hour or so

if you have questions for me drop them here and i'll answer asap when i'm back online

[scamper]

i am home now

[scamper]

do u have any questions for me dats?

[scamper]

do u have any questions for me dats?

i don't think i do

i'm racking my brain to see if i can ask anything of you, but i'm getting the feeling your answers will just be sensible and won't actually let me solve you better

well, i think if you approach me like any other person without building me up in your head i'm readable, but understandable

any ETA on a vote? not to press or anything but we have a little over an hour left

[scamper]

I also mentioned in the hood on d2 the possibility of this f3 existing. I think that shows that I was aware that this would be the general trajectory of the game if I was wrong that scum was in Meg/Xayah.

I'm probably too self-conscious about looking like I'm planning things to share that thought as scum, because I would be planning things, but wouldn't necessarily expect myself to be thinking that far ahead as town.

And if I was scum looking ahead and planning for this, I think I would have planned better

Or if I didn't want this f3, I could have pushed for scamper instead yesterday. I think that my actions, if I'm scum here, gave town a much higher chance of winning this game than I would ever need to give them.

"i would have played better as scum" is kind of a BS answer

like, none of that is really disadvantageous as scum and you might be self-consciously lampshading knowing that the game won't end, because you know you'll be facing that scenario and don't went to seem like you went all in on meg/xayah being the winning poe. is it maybe the best move as scum? idk, but its not like its super high risk or anti-wincon at all

[scamper]

i typed up a coral vote but i deleted it

i feel like there is *something* that will show the answer to me but i'm just so tired and i know it's probably not there anyway

i don't even know if i should say this

but last night after i read the neighborhood my mind swung back to it being coral

but i was afraid to even say it because i was worried that if i was right, you were going to get paranoid that i was just telling you what you wanted to hear now that it was decided you were voting first. and even now i'm a little afraid to say that but i figure i might as well

[scamper]

i have to eat so won't be responding right away to things

[scamper]

aaaaah i kinda wish you hadn't told me that

:/

i wanted to lay my cards on the table

to briefly expand on this - when i was reading through the hood, coral's posts felt *manipulative*. it felt like she was pushing ausuka and you toward her desired goal, that she was putting out feelers to see see if either of you would bite on a push. in particular, when i scumcased her in the min thread, i had thought i might be wrong because she responded so calmly, and that felt towny to me. but now i see behind the scenes she was trying to work you and ausuka to see me as scum for it. and i think the fact she did that there and not in the main thread is +scum. it also felt like a lot of her posts were performative, that she said things that were maybe unnautral or odd for a townie to say to make it look lie she was thinking about things. what i didn't see a lot of was the "nuanced solving" she is talking up here.


by contrast, your posts just felt more natural. the in the moment reactions to stuff, the demeanor, it was all believable to me and kind of what i was looking for from you that i didn't quite see in the main thread

[scamper]

i really don't think i come up with the thought process in that post as scum, though - there's too much going on when my win condition is either to get you to vote coral or wait out the timer

[scamper]

i am town. i contemplated quickhammering for kicks but don't want to be impulsive. let me finish eating dinner and i will be back.

[scamper]

til then state your cases

[scamper]

actually, quick question that i wanted to remember to ask: datisi, why did you not see your role and coral's as a difference check on day 3? from my pov it was clear that it didn't make sense for all 3 of don/datisi/coral's claims to be town in a micro, and you've designed and hosted a lot of games...

[scamper]

ok

uhm, another one: when you started to say you thought it was coral last night and leading into day, how do i know you weren't just telling me what i wanted to hear, since i was visibly agitated by being tunneled by coral?

[scamper]

But I don't think that me doing that in the hood actually benefited me in any way?

it has the very obvious effect of not having me be able to respond to you arguments at that time, and if you are scum you entered today with the plan of pushing me to begin with, presumably because you assumed i was likely to vote you. that would mean it wouldn't matter if i saw it at that point.


but, i can see 1197 being a scum post. that is a way to play that gamestate as scum. that is why i had doubts about datisi. but i also felt as though the way you went about it, burying xayah and then meg with over the top certainty - that is *also* something i could see coming from scum

[scamper]

ok

uhm, another one: when you started to say you thought it was coral last night and leading into day, how do i know you weren't just telling me what i wanted to hear, since i was visibly agitated by being tunneled by coral?

can you be more specific about which parts of the game you're talking about? idk what "last night" is for you

but also i don't think scum-me tries to bet the game on you getting annoyed at coral pushing you, when (1) you have shown that you are very capable of townreading town that is being annoying/unreasonable (eg. meg), (2) coral has been lowkey aligning to vote you for a while now, like even before start of d3 she says she thinks it's more likely you than me, and doesn't really change her mind much there

like i'm just choosing a harder path for myself when that is something i wouldn't want to do not would enjoy doing

i meant the past 24 hours or so basically

[scamper]

I just don't feel like he ever really engaged with the game on a deeper level. I did, and I did it badly and came to the wrong conclusions, but I tried.

show me where you engaged with the game on a "deeper level". if it's in the hood point me to it there

[scamper]

pretty savvy answer, i see the context now

[scamper]

will vote by 5 minutes to deadline

[scamper]

i don't know. i kind of worried he was playing both sides for a while, for a lot of this phase and it was part of why i was doubting him. but ultimately he did reach a conclusion.

[scamper]

okay, i set myself a timer and i don't want to risk looking away and the deadline expriring. two points in my mind

1. Datisi's posting after the fake-vote on him from Coral was extremely good. Like, the logic was just absolutely crystalline. He played that extremely well if he was mafia.

2. I don't see him turning around and voting Coral as mafia rather than taking advantage of coral's tunnel on me all phase


VOTE: Coral

if tgis is wrong, i am truly sorry. it is my fault for tunnelng you all game and not being able to find you, not yours.

closing the tab, gl

[scamper]

sorry town


i think if i had more time to revisit my priors i might have been able to get there because i really felt the evidence pointed toward datisi for most of the day, but the deadline was working against me - or, more accurately, was utilized against me. i let final 3 posting influence me too much when i should know better than that.

gg dats

not really happy with any part of how i played this tbh

[scamper]

and coral fwiw i really do think your whole heuristic for how you attempted to solve the game in f3 is fundamentally flawed and will not lead you to a correct answer in the majority of cases. i realize i probably don't have much room to talk seeing as i am the one who voted incorrectly, but i would strongly urge you to not use that thought process in future games.

[scamper]

at some point though when you made the post about how you keep wanting to explain your thought process when i asked why you were doubling down i went "god, shes just town isnt she". wish i had been able to hold on to that thought but datisi's pivot against you was so well timed and made so much sense that it threw me for a loop.

[scamper]

Reading the mod thread, part of me wonders if we would have won if I had added scamper instead of Datisi. At the time I didn't think the choice mattered that much, but I think things would have played out very differently, at least.

easy to say things would have gone differently in hindsight, hard to actually know. i will say that feeling like i was on the outside of a group dynamic on day 3 made me give up on defending meg, which was probably my worst play this game

[scamper]

btw i'd like to hear if ppl have like, specific advice on what i should have done better

i guess saying this before the scum pt comes out might be jumping the gun, but

idk honestly

game came down to an error in evaluation and i dont think thats really actionable for future games unfortunately