Mini Normal 2309 | Finished!

[KatyKimFanClub]

VOTE: Italiano hey!

[KatyKimFanClub]

ninja'd - Hi KatyKimFanClub, I've read a game or two with you in them, unsure if they finished so I won't say more but hype to play a game with you#

:O. I'm excited to play with you too!

[KatyKimFanClub]

Civil might be coming from an old school mentality when it comes to activity? I’m just judging based off post history here.

I certainly have not noticed any sort of correlation between day 1 activity and scum in my games so far.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Policy-ing replacements also seems like it would make it kind of hard to find any

[KatyKimFanClub]

I do think Civil is coming from a straightforwardly logical place that, while it isn’t enough to make me like the slot, gives me some confidence going forward? He doesn’t want to miselim a PR and he thinks PRs are less likely to fall under his policy criteria. This all checks out to me.

- edited to remove possible offensive language

[KatyKimFanClub]

Just as a heads up to people, I wrote an abbreviation that I thought meant mislim but later realized could be interpreted differently. I asked DE70 to go ahead and edit my post to remove it. Sorry about that.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Feel like unvoting this early reduces any sort of reactions we can get from the early wagon.
Like at least make it hurt for Civil.

[KatyKimFanClub]

According to the archives: viewtopic.php?t=29549
Almost certainly 3

[KatyKimFanClub]

Feel like unvoting this early reduces any sort of reactions we can get from the early wagon.
Like at least make it hurt for Civil.

No, we do not want an RVS vote to reach E-1, unless there is a legitimate reason to suspect that player.

Well.. is there a reason why we should make it hurt for

Civil Scum

?

I'm not really sure the downside of it. It's free information.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Feel like unvoting this early reduces any sort of reactions we can get from the early wagon.
Like at least make it hurt for Civil.

Whats the rush? We have 2 players that might get replaced anyway, so thats 2 players we havent been able to get to know yet.

Can you elaborate on what you mean in this comment? I'm not advocating to eliminate Civil this early, and it's unclear to me how you got that impression from me.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Feel like unvoting this early reduces any sort of reactions we can get from the early wagon.
Like at least make it hurt for Civil.

Whats the rush? We have 2 players that might get replaced anyway, so thats 2 players we havent been able to get to know yet.

Can you elaborate on what you mean in this comment? I'm not advocating to eliminate Civil this early, and it's unclear to me how you got that impression from me.

To me it seemed clear, there is still much of time to pressure anybody into reactions. I honestly have no idea what else to say

Did you think I was advocating for an elimination on Civil?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Feel like unvoting this early reduces any sort of reactions we can get from the early wagon.
Like at least make it hurt for Civil.

Whats the rush? We have 2 players that might get replaced anyway, so thats 2 players we havent been able to get to know yet.

Can you elaborate on what you mean in this comment? I'm not advocating to eliminate Civil this early, and it's unclear to me how you got that impression from me.

To me it seemed clear, there is still much of time to pressure anybody into reactions. I honestly have no idea what else to say

Did you think I was advocating for an elimination on Civil?

At that point yes, i did.

Just going to close the loop on this and chalk it up to my pretty abstract use of "hurt" here? My point was that I wanted a better reaction test on Civil by keeping the votes on him longer, something I mentioned in 107.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I'm trying to figure out how much of Civil's activity and response times could just be LAMIST considering his rather militant stance against low activity users.

I think the questioning is good but perhaps over the top for someone who seems pretty intent on just policy'ing someone at the end of the day? It's a little off for me but I'm struggling to explain why exactly.

[KatyKimFanClub]

RVS flashwagons are not a good sourse of reaction reads. Most scum players would know they are something to strug off.

Which is why I'm saying we should have kept it going past RVS...

[KatyKimFanClub]

My eyes were starting to hurt

[KatyKimFanClub]

Bazuf is my next top suspect which I will go into shortly.

I guess while we're both here can you elaborate on this?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Low hanging fruit, presumably?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Why does Naerys still think something that she admits in 214 she misinterpreted is weird?

Please explain to me why you still think my post about Civil is weird please.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Actually I'm going to write a little more than that because there's something really bothering me about 214/215.


214 lacks conviction. At first, I read Naerys as someone who is just kind of paranoid and making a readslist a little too early into the game, but actually the post seems weirdly calculated to suspect, or at least have harbor fears about, a lot more than three people in a game where we've already talked about how there's probably three scum.

Naerys mentions:

Bazuf for low post count
Greeting for low post count
StD for low effort posting
Hu Tao for low effort posting

as well as tangential comments like "confused gut feelings" for iavh or "feels weird" about me for a post that she admittedly misinterpreted.


When we break down her main suspicions, it looks to me like Naerys is basically scumreading any sort of low effort or low activity posting, which is why I'm confused as to why Naerys left Hu Tao and RN out of her scumpool in 215. They are more or less guilty of doing the same thing as Bazuf and Greeting. Is there enough of a distinction between low post count and low effort in posts for Naerys to say "there's at least one scum in Bazuf/Greeting" this early into the game? I'm not sure personally because both could be interpreted as lurking.


Also, I think it bothers me that Naerys thought that Civil's low-activity-policy plan was suspicious in 48 and that's basically exactly what she's doing with her vote right now? I don't think it's a slip, but it doesn't add up to me.

VOTE: Naerys

[KatyKimFanClub]

Oddly enough I am leaning town for STD since I read atleast one of his games as scum wherein he actually seemed to be trying.

Oddly this is very different than town!StD meta, at least from the one game I have played with him. Can you link the scum!StD game please?

[KatyKimFanClub]

UNVOTE: Naerys

Feeling a little under the weather so I won't elaborate on too much stuff, but I think the response in 267 is pretty good. Do you have games on this site where you feel like you got pocketed by scum?

---

A little wary of Civil Scum's townread on RN, and I'm also confused (genuinely, not trying to throw shade under the guise of being confused) about the discoure around the early wagon on Civil Scum.

To me, he was never under any pressure of being eliminated. I think in my last 2 completed Newbie games we had players put to E-1 by page 2 with no actual threat of hammering. So, any retroactive analysis that suggests such seems weird to me (not sure if there was any).

The players on the wagon were Bazuf, Starfire, Random Nurse, Bellaphant. Bazuf was the first vote, but the only one of the four who Civil Scum scumreads? In fact he townreads the others. So why was he so upset over his wagon if everyone who contributed to it after the first vote was town?

I could be misreading this.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I voted Bazuf beceause i wanted to get some reaction from this player. Cannot be votes used in this way at this stage?

Seems fine to me. I agree there was some overreacting

It looks to me like Bazuf and his lack of posts are being used as easy pushes given the early slant of the game against inactivity.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Oh honestly I thought for a second this was 11p and 4 votes were E-2, hence my not including Greetings in your vote count. That's my bad and explains a lot more honestly.

Before I go to bed, I do just want to say that your read on Bazuf just seems to be miscalibrated for a couple of reasons.

Bazuf knows you aren't getting hammered because he's just played in two Newbie games where people got put at E-1 basically by page 2 and neither got hammered, and there was a lot of discourse how no one is hammering from those spots.

This, and my misunderstanding of the vote count on you is why I was skeptical of your "lamist, weird voting logic" reasoning for being suspicious of Bazuf.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Also I was super confused about people townreading Bellaphant but I see the town vibes now.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Before I go to bed, I do just want to say that your read on Bazuf just seems to be miscalibrated for a couple of reasons.

I realized I forgot my second reason. I think his town meta is sort of similar to PC's where they're both going to jump to reads quickly instead of "showing their work" and building up to a read? I don't see anything nefarious in 76 honestly. That being said, I've only ever seen town!Bazuf and town!PC.

[KatyKimFanClub]

My previous messages in 305/306 probably come across as a little fragmented, sorry I am running a fever.

The reason I think Bazuf LAMIST style / weird voting pattern isn't that bad is because I think he does this pretty often as town. The below quote is from Newbie 2125. He has a strong pattern of scumreading someone early and helping move the game out of RVS. It is kind of interesting he said something about RVS this time, but this post reminds me a lot of 76.

Eh, I do this all the time in my games.

Dunno why but this post feels townie, cause I think scum!Delta wouldn't defend another player this early, especially not with this kind of defense. In fact, right now Delta has become my top (and quite possibly my only) townread.

I don't understand how you can townread someone so early on and for such a shallow reason.
I can see his comment coming for scum as well.

I think you might know for a fact that Delta is in fact town and you're just trying to get on his good side...
UNVOTE: Deltabreedy
VOTE: DragonEater

I don't think Civil / Bella reads on Bazuf are "bad", but maybe a little miscalibrated based on his playstyle?
Like the things about LAMIST or the "..." are pretty easily explained as NAI for Bazuf (at least based on me understanding of his meta).
Similarly, the idea that he hasn't really interacted with his vote is probably just because he hasn't been active on the site. Once again looping back to my idea that there is either a town-subconscious or scum-conscious decision to push on him because of his inactivity.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I find it weird that you are using this many words and efforts to discuss someone who isn't here??

(That's shade btw)

What would you suggest I do. Use less words?

[KatyKimFanClub]

I think he's more town than y'all do. Why not talk about it?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Are you scumreading me for vibes or because you think I'm putting forward a bad case on someone. I'm a little confused as to why you think I'm scum at this point.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Sure, I'll be around for a bit. You can also just ask me questions if you want.

I'll just get my piece out of the way. If you want to scumread me for defending Bazuf, that's fine, I do this as town all the time and you can see it in my meta. I think townhunting is valuable and for Bazuf I see someone deeply in their town meta. His posts this game (very few, yes) are very similar to his town meta tone and general strategy. The fact that he's inactive or might get replaced is irrelevant, because I'll still trust my original read. If you want, I'll stop talking about him now and move on to other things, but interacting with people to see how genuine their scumreads on him are is a great way to scumhunt actually.

I'm a little confused as to why you decided to throw shade at me for my posts about Bazuf? Do you think they were incorrect or off point?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Like, what do you think I did "wrong" to deserve shade?

[KatyKimFanClub]

if that would help start a convo?

Also, this phrase pings me after 321. The context of the game was showing that I was clearly asking you to engage with me already. Might just be me being paranoid.

[KatyKimFanClub]

However I will note that he was wrong about Dragoneater in that game and yet recycled the logic this time anyways. I’ll also point out the difference this time that he basically said he would allow Bellaphant this behavior if Bellaphant had played with RN or Starfire before which again just doesn’t track for me.

No, the reason I believe in my point is because DE70/iavh was scum that game, so Bazuf is more likely to recycle that logic as town.

[KatyKimFanClub]

And not knowing how many players there are…

This point is kinda funny now considering you didn't even know DE70's alignment from the game I was talking about, isn't it?

[KatyKimFanClub]

I'm actually pretty sure Civil is town now. I don't think scum pushes that angle in 330 knowing that DE70 was actually scum that game. Seems too sloppy.

[KatyKimFanClub]

What is flawed about his logic? Isn't what I'm doing right now an example of that? If you don't have meta on someone it's harder to come up with gut vibes as easily. I don't think that logic is contentious enough to say it's flawed.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I missed the replacement at a glance, I hardly think that’s comparable to not knowing how many players are in your own game.

Just pointing out that it's hard to be infallible

[KatyKimFanClub]

Hi guys.

VOTE: Civil Scum

This is clearly scum

People may poo-poo this one and I realize that it’s not much (but let’s be honest, he’s got 3 posts) since people use emoticons differently and some like to call out jokes when they’ve been made, but this emoticon was really unnecessary imo. It looks a little like justifying a
random vote to me, or just trying too hard to be clear that the vote was accompanied with a joke when anyone could see that already.

Like, what? He uses emotes all the time. This is a really flimsy reason to scumread anyone anyways.

Oh my! E-2 already?

Lack of resistance? Interesting!

VOTE: Unvote

It’s not like anyone will hammer this early, so… why so serious?!

Mainly vibes? Starfire is relaxed, enjoyed.the humour, random's response to civil is more thought out than I think scum would bother.

Hmm… I don’t buy this…
If you had played before with Starfire and Random, I’d believe your vibes… This because, from your own experience, you’d might recognise some pattern in the way Starfire and Random are posting this early on D-1.

But right after this post you say you haven’t played with them, so these vibes… are really just vibes… or are TMI.
I think you might KNOW that they are indeed town.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Bellaphant

Let’s get this game out of RVS.

Here is where things get interesting. One, he seems unconcerned about a E-2 RVS with two unconfirmed players. This just rubs me the wrong way.

Two, I’m reading Bellaphant as town and I think this attack was really flimsy to be presented as strongly as Bazuf did.

Third, I looked up LMIST and here I think Bazuf is most guilty of this. “Let’s get this game out of RVS” This just smacks of trying to look proactive and patting himself on the back in public.

VOTE: Bazuf[/]

One: You already conceded that the first point isn't important anymore. You weren't in any danger so it doesn't make sense to be concerned about something that isn't going to happen.

Two: We have meta evidence that he presents reads early in the game strongly. We also have evidence of him using the same read in a previous game as town. I don't see how his voting logic here is flawed.

Three: This is actually a fair point. That being said, his post (as evidenced by the discourse around it) actually has been quite productive.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Like, I get that you also have strong reads on people and how the game should be played, and you're willing to stand by them, but I struggle to agree with so many of them. This is a large part of why I am townreading you in the first place but it's a really weird position.

I guess I should ask other people if they share this sentiment? Some things that come to mind are:

1) policying low activity players
2) scumreading Naerys for her poor English
3) conversation with Bob around lurking

You strike me as an extremely paranoid town player, and that's why I was rather motivated to defend Bazuf in this circumstance.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Going to end this conversation here in the interest of doing other things.

I think your logic on Bazuf's caveat being scum-motivated is a little paranoid. It could just be that he has a personal heuristic for how scum operate and wanted clarification from Bella to see if it would apply. The idea that a gut read without meta is inauthentic makes enough sense that I could see someone holding that view consistently. I wouldn't say hypocritical, but personally I struggle to support your read on Bazuf both for aforementioned meta reasons but also because I don't think it's fair for you to be this opinionated about what is town and what is scum and then scumread Bazuf for having a heuristic related to gut reads and meta. Your logic just doesn't work for me and I'm just going to interpret it as a gut read.

As we've talked about earlier, you don't need to be consistent to be a town player, but it's just my reasoning.

VOTE: StD.

Feel free to ask me about my vote.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Back now. Honestly I just saw that StD had cross site activity and wanted him to engage in my read on Civil, but that hasn't happened yet.

StD do you still scumread Civil?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Now, I didn't particularly care for the read at the time, but since then there has been some agreement that Naerys play seems off, lacking conviction, confused, 'just vibing', etc.

Do you not feel like you're just moving the goalposts constantly with me? Like originally you hated the post and now you're whatever with it but there's other stuff wrong with me. I feel like you're just tunneling random people and trying to make cases on them that don't make sense.

I simply don't believe that this was enough to change KKFC's mind. I haven't played with KKFC, but I've read a little bit of his games, and he's not exactly one to let a point go.
Yet here, when he is asking about why Naerys thought his post about me was weird, he apparently accepted whole-heartedly the very convincing explanation 'I don't know, your post simply looks weird to me.'

I'm not really sure how you got the impression that the post totally allayed my suspicions, but whatever. Like you're clearly just reading whatever you want from my slot which is just confusing. Here are some quotes from my last town game where I change my mind on something.

Doubting my read on Jason now. Will comment more on why after a bit.

2) Yes, so I understand why you might not post your own reads. I reread 2125, and this is your first post from there.

That was because i had replaced in, and did actually have to give a few thoughts as i hadn't in the past at all, whereas that isn't the case this game. (not to mention i do tend to give thoughts as we go, even if I'm not literally saying X is town, Y is scum.)

Fair response here too. I think I'll admit defeat (as in I've changed my mind here) too.

If anything, I'm accused of being too indecisive this game as town, and while I'm trying to get better at it, I definitely change my reads pretty often because I often see people's responses to me too truthfully. I'm not sure how you can say you've read my previous games and come to the conclusion that you have. Seriously, that meta read on me is literally the exact opposite of my playstyle, and I'm so confused what your endgame is here. A player in this game, PC, literally accused me of not sticking to my reads and gave me advice on it last game.

vote delta not vote delta, vote snix not vote snix. You fence sitting is actually terrible if you're town since that's what scum are going to use to push you. it's better to commit to a play even if you're wrong on who is scum. you make the game easier for yourself if you vote town and you almost win the game if you vote scum. don't worry about getting it wrong just go with your gut. if your gut is wrong just say hey in this situation it was really hard for me to parse through the game with x y and z happening, but next time I'm in a similar situation I'll have better game play and I should consider this or that instead.

Like, to summarize my point, what the fuck are you doing? You say things like you've read my games and that I never change my mind as town and then I think about my own playstyle and not only is that patently false it's just so verifiably false?

I trust the response from Naerys because it's not a good enough one to have been coached by a partner and because it's actually a response that she later backed with evidence. If she didn't come back with a game thread where she got pocketed, then my suspicions would have returned.

Similarly, for my post where I forgot the number of people in the game,

I literally had a conversation with you where I pointed out that most of the 13 player games in the mini normal archives had 3 scum, I also have clearly been reading the thread the entire game based off of my activity and response times

.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Like I'm actually so fucking baffled by your reads this game, and not just for me. Can someone else please do a sanity check if what I'm saying makes sense?

[KatyKimFanClub]

14: expresses policy elimination on lurkers
104: votes Naerys for tortured language in a post
132: suspicious of Bob for posting quickly after getting quoted and comments about wagon.
162: case against Bazuf (emoji, unconcerned about E-2 RVS, scumreading someone Civil himself townreads, LAMIST, thinks Bazuf case against gut reads is bad)
172: shades PC
184: says vote on PC or Hu Tao might be productive
243: original scumread on me.

Claims he doesn't think it's scummy for people to lack conviction about their reads.

248: scumreads Greeting for giving towncred for newbieposting, also a few other interactions that I'm not going to list

Note at this point chronologically that he hasn't FOS-ed Random Nurse, who at that point has been tied for the least active player in the game.

373: suspects PC paranoia to be LAMIST or at least self-serving. Notice that he already made six suspects in 307 SO AT THIS POINT HE PRESUMABLY SCUMREADS OR IS ABOUT TO MAKE A CASE FOR SCUMREADING OVER HALF OF THE GAME.

Other notable posts that are scummy:

Townreads Naerys (278) AFTER my interaction with her. Interacts with me about that post too. Later claims that I am bussing in 381. This chronology proves to me that you are literally just looking for random evidence to confirm your reads. You had everything in front of you when you were talking to me yesterday about my interactions with Naerys, and you only came back later with a read you can't possibly justify like "there's no way KKFC is flipping his read on Naerys there". This isn't a statement you can prove at all, and honestly I don't know where it comes from because I've already given you two examples from one game where I flip reads in an indecisive way as town. You aren't actually gathering evidence or accumulating to a read, you are just throwing reads out randomly and going back later and looking for scraps to justify it. This is why you have really bullshit evidence like Bazuf's use of emojis, or my completely bogus town meta that makes no sense. At best, this is tunneling, at worst, it's just straight up anti-town behavior as scum.

You also claimed I am skimming threads despite a conversation with me where I literally look through mini archives and telling him that probably we have 3 scum. I don't explicitly say that this game has 13 players, but considering three of the last four Mini Normals with 11 players have had 2 scum players (Mini Normal 2107 11 players 2 scum, Mini Normal 2101 11 players 2 scum, Mini Normal 2066 11 players 3 scum, Mini Normal 2033 11 players 2 scum) it would make no sense for me to say that there's three scum if I think there are 11 players unless you think I slipped.

Later posts 342 where he claims Hu Tao (posted 4 times about two hours before 342) is lurking.

253: "just a read" townread on Starfire, townreads RN for putting him out of E-2 despite RN not being active the entire game. Strangely, basically no one interacts with these two reads.

Once again, I'm not asking for consistency, but I think you might be projecting when you claim things like I'm skimming threads because you haven't exactly shown great comprehension either.

At this point, there's only two possible conclusions

1) You're scum who is trying to add as much noise as possible to try to force a policy vote on a town inactive at the end of the day.

2) (small but decent possibility) you are just a huge miscalibrated town player, which doesn't make you the worst policy vote today. If you survive, scum will just let you live until endgame at which point you will lose town this game.

I was trying to be nice originally when you brought up things like policy'ing inactive players because I figured you were coming from an old meta, but at this point it's time to rip off the bandaid and just eliminate you. You're anti-town.

VOTE: Civil Scum

[KatyKimFanClub]

Suggesting I’m more anti town than RN or Bazuf at this point? Don’t be ridiculous. I’ll still vote to eliminate any of the less active players if no one else thinks my scum reads have any merit.

Then why is your vote on me? Push for a wagon on an inactive and hope it gets them to stop lurking.

Also, as PC said,

being too flimsy on your reads can be used to push you since it is a bit scummy

. You can hardly blame me for that.

How does that make sense at all given you said this to me earlier?

I gotta be honest, unlike Greeting, I don’t love this post.

I don’t think it’s scummy at all to lack conviction about your reads

.

Like pick one, but don't push me for both. You originally pushed on me for saying it was scummy for Naerys to not sound convinced of her own reads. You then claimed my meta was that I don't change my reads. After I showed you that wasn't the case, you now are saying that being too flimsy on my reads is actually scummy. Either way, that quote is from a game where PC hard townread me and was trying to give me advice. He never actually scumread me for that indecisiveness.

This is what I'm talking about. You say "Look this is weird, because KKFC never changes his reads as town and now he did". And when I give you evidence from a game where I did, you say "well, actually being really flimsy is a bit scummy, so you can't blame for reading that". DESPITE YOU LITERALLY SAYING EARLIER THAT YOU THOUGHT A POST OF MINE WAS SCUMMY FOR PUSHING SOMEONE FOR BEING FLIMSY. Not to mention, you've changed your reads more than me this game, so why exactly was that a piece of evidence in your push on me in the first place?

You make no sense man.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Suggesting I’m more anti town than RN or Bazuf at this point? Don’t be ridiculous. I’ll still vote to eliminate any of the less active players if no one else thinks my scum reads have any merit.

You townread RN earlier.

[KatyKimFanClub]

If you count Naerys, Bazuf, and Greeting, you’re the fourth player I’ve gone after. I don’t think that qualifies as tunneling at least in the way I understand the term.

Why would I not count Bob or Hu Tao? You listed them as your #1 and #3 suspects in 307. Why are you lying about how many people you've tunneled on this game? Are you skimming the thread? Skimming is scum indicative.

[KatyKimFanClub]

You don't even know how many people you've listed as scum? Clearly caught scum who is skimming.

[KatyKimFanClub]

To recap, your case on me is now that you think it's out of my own meta to change my read on someone. I showed you from my meta that that isn't the case. Your rebuttal is now that it looks scummy for someone to change their reads, despite you changing your reads many more times than me this game and your earlier statement that flimsy reads isn't scum indicative. And you're still voting for me.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Flimsy and lacking conviction are not the same thing and it’s about degrees and the players and their reasoning and the stage of the game.

more vagueness for you to hide your reads behind

Bob and Hu Tao were never that high for me you have the list upside down.

actually makes more sense now. Still, I don't get how you have a list of six people with an additional scumread given after and say that you've only "gone after" four players?

Also I didn’t say you don’t change your mind, I said you sometimes don’t let a point go. And you dropped a point with Naerys suddenly it seemed to me. I’ve been skimming meta since I’m looking at everyone I’ll admit, my time is not unlimited.

How is my example with Naerys different than the one with Jason? That's why I provided the quote. I made a read, was given more evidence, then changed my mind.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Well, one could argue I did do this and you inexplicably turned into their lawyer.

You didn't push on him for being inactive you made a bad meta argument based on things like emojis. Wagon the other one see if you stop you.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I haven't said this out loud but based on my questioning it's been implied. I have no issue with anyone, you included, ever pushing people as long as I think it's consistent and coming from a reasonable place. If it's not, then I have no confidence in the logic of genuine belief behind the vote.

Your reads on me and Bazuf made no sense to me, particularly the meta portions of both arguments, which is why I've been pushing against them.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Well, one could argue I did do this and you inexplicably turned into their lawyer.

You didn't push on him for being inactive you made a bad meta argument based on things like emojis. Wagon the other one see if you stop you.

Question since I sense things calming down. Do you think it's inexplicable to try to push someone away from a bad read? Surely you see the merit in my original points about Bazuf (that he has a strong town meta indicative post, that he uses emojis, that he pushes on people early in games). Sure, we disagreed about whether it was appropriate for him to give the caveat, but if you're me and you read someone whose push has a lot of points that don't deserve merit, you would speak up right?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Calling it inexplicable was a reach. I would have preferred Bazuf answered for himself. And I would say that in my 8 or 9 games here it was probably the strongest defense I’ve seen given for an inactive player.

Do you think it's scum indicative of me to defend someone so strongly? Do you want to make a comment about whether that aligns with my meta?

[KatyKimFanClub]

To be honest, I never go into an argument with the intention of making a big deal of it. I'm just an argumentative person and that's probably why I play so much Mafia.

[KatyKimFanClub]

More specific to letting a point go with Naerys was you asking what she thought was weird about a post of yours and then accepting her just repeating that it was weird.

This is a fair point. I honestly didn't think critically about her saying that the post was still weird, I only really responded to the second part of 267 and then after that I ended up getting a little sick and very busy responding to other things in the thread. I will say though that I thought her defense was (I'm struggling to find the right word to describe the vibe. Ineloquent? Honest? Spartan?) enough to convince me that it wasn't coached and it was a genuine struggle to describe the reasoning behind the read.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I won’t lie, I have a bit of meta read on you but it sadly doesn’t apply to this situation and there’s no way I’m going to tell you what it is.

You would understand why I don't put much weight into your meta reads at all at this point right? If you're going to say it makes me look more town you should just say it out loud.

[KatyKimFanClub]

My meta reads have historically been pretty solid, don’t you worry about that.

I don't want to be mean but like... they really haven't been this game.

[KatyKimFanClub]

A bulletproof miller indicates to me there’s a vig in the game. From a setup standpoint, I’m not sure why else the Miller would be bulletproof. Looking at the archives, the only other game with a 1-shot bulletproof Miller did have a vig.

Now, if we get to endgame and there isn’t a vig shot or claim, then I’ll be a little suspicious.

Iavh what do you think of this analysis?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Hu Tao who is your second most likely scumread?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Did kkfc not respond to my walk through their iso? I'm sure I raised some talking points.

Been really busy with other stuff going on in this game and also IRL. I'll get to it in a bit.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I will say though at the time I didn't want to respond since you didn't leave post links.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Kkfc's first five posts are mainly about theory and game: it's fine.
6 is fine to start with, but the make it hurt is weird.
The follow up in 8 9 10 is poor, 11 is much better but why did it take four posts to get to a sensible answer (the fact that it's taken a dialogue suggests to me that 6 8 9 10 were poor for other people too)
12 isn't great, 13 is better
I disagree with a lot of 18 but can see the thought process
Happy with the std Sus
I still think the defense of a player who isn't here and isn't under that much pressure is weird. If they were a leading wagon, id be less weirded out
The first half of 25 looks really town and the second half feels like reaching for a conclusion you already know.
Why are the tr on me fine? I wasn't really aware anyone was apart from civil, and that's because I seen to just be agreeing with them a lot
You thinking I'm scum reading you isn't quite what I'm saying, though. I think it's more town that you are this jumpy, maybe. Even your paranoid about 'starting the convo ': I meant funneling it down to this.
I like the std vote.

I'm willing to think this is just me having issues with your communication style.

63

(6)

: From my point of view, Civil is someone whose emotion and earnestness is going to bleed through even when trying to deceive people as scum. If we can make the wagon look more genuine as we get further away from RVS (aka make it hurt), it would have been easier to get a read on him as well as how other people would react to it. Also at this time I was actually pretty convinced he thought he was in danger (coming from an earlier post of his that I don't recall)

Regarding the dialogue around the post

(#8,9,10)

, I was actually surprised that people (I guess just Naerys) were confused by what I meant. I think at the end of the day this has to be a wording thing. Naerys originally thought I actually wanted to eliminate Civil, which wasn't the case. If you're saying these posts are "poor" because they come across as scum vibes or something I can't defend myself against that I can only say what I made those posts, which I hope this explanation helped clear up.


In regards to your read on my defense of Bazuf starting around 304

(#22, 24, 25)

, I don't really see the downside in my defense? Like, do you see how my points about meta, emojis, etc were valid? Even if it only shifts our reads a little bit in the right way it was worth it. Also, it's not really like there was other stuff going on at the time. I could see an argument I'm trying to obfuscate town or something, but as you said, there really wasn't any real pressure on Bazuf, so personally I don't see the scum motivation in this (I am biased here of course). I just like to try to set the record straight on things?

I'm actually interested in what you mean by "reaching for a conclusion

already know" in 320 (post #25 for me). Are you saying the conclusion is that I knew Bazuf was going to get replaced? Or that I knew people were pushing him for inactivity?


In regards to why I thought a townread on you was justified in 305

(#23)

, your opening just sounded town when I reread it. I didn't really mean too much by it, it was literally just like when I was rereading the opening your posts stood out to me.


I just thought you were scumreading me by post 328

(#30)

because of the 'this is shade btw' comment. I thought you meant that you were actively pushing me at that point.

Question for you after all this talk about myself: do you still hold the same read compared to when you originally made the post? Also, has your read of StD changed at all?

[KatyKimFanClub]

If you're saying these posts are "poor" because they come across as scum vibes or something I can't defend myself against that I can only say what I made those posts, which I hope this explanation helped clear up.

To clarify, what I mean is that I've can only explain my reasoning behind making 63, which is that at the time I thought Civil thought his wagon had real momentum, which would make reading him way easier.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I'm actually pretty frustrated how people were/are saying my defense of Bazuf was over the top. When I reread that conversation my original defense was quite straightforward and mostly attempting to rebut or clarify things that were objectively incorrect. It's not like I was screaming out into the void, there were people pushing what I thought was a really bad read who were responding to me.

[KatyKimFanClub]

@PC can you walk me through your reads, or at least the one on Bob? Give me one of your wallposts if you're up for it.

[KatyKimFanClub]

UNVOTE: Civil

I'll put a vote on my top scumread tomorrow.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Hu Tao who is your second most likely scumread?

If I had to choose, star. But I would highly prefer greeting today. Thoughts?

Not really any currently. I've been lumping them together in my mind up to now.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I'm probably somewhere between my original scumread on Naerys and my pivot away in 298.

I'm glad we're talking about 485 though? The post itself and reactions to it are pretty telling, imo.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I think the fact that you like it as another presumptive wagon target (at least based off of vote counts) makes me feel better about you to be honest.

Unless your whole plan this time has been to swing a Greeting wagon? My view on your doing this just kinda depends on how my ISO of Greeting goes.

[KatyKimFanClub]

UNVOTE: Civil

I'll put a vote on my top scumread tomorrow.

weird post.

Why?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Greeting ISO:

Just going to do the notable posts from my reread since I'm really tired.

56: puts Civil at E-2, which seems kind of illogical when you read 78?

239: It's pretty fair to say Civil gave off Newbie vibes at this point, and personally I think the earnestness was +town, but Greeting saying it's NAI seems ok. There's actually a presumption here that Greeting mentions again in 247 which is that a confused newbie would get townread. I think holding that idea is pretty +town since it indicates to me that at least some scumhunting process in place?

493/516: Feel like Greeting's re-use of some of my arguments against Civil Scum is actually kind of weird? I like how it's phrased as confirmation bias, but that's just a very small thing.

Just generally, I think the responses to all the cross-flak haven't been great, especially since the claim of being productive this game is just untrue.

Also 368 seems truthful, since IAVH definitely got more town from 240 to 368 in my opinion. But that just sort of begs the question of why Greeting has been lurking and then claiming that they're not?

[KatyKimFanClub]

UNVOTE: Civil

I'll put a vote on my top scumread tomorrow.

weird post.

Why?

Wait did you think I meant Day 2?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Yimmy starting the reread from 521 is actually such a vibe lol

[KatyKimFanClub]

A bulletproof miller indicates to me there’s a vig in the game. From a setup standpoint, I’m not sure why else the Miller would be bulletproof. Looking at the archives, the only other game with a 1-shot bulletproof Miller did have a vig.

Now, if we get to endgame and there isn’t a vig shot or claim, then I’ll be a little suspicious.

Iavh what do you think of this analysis?

i didn't like this at first. umm probably cause i just really liked the idea of rn's claim being bad. probably it is wise to make that a problem for a later day though

63

(6)

: From my point of view, Civil is someone whose emotion and earnestness is going to bleed through even when trying to deceive people as scum. If we can make the wagon look more genuine as we get further away from RVS (aka make it hurt), it would have been easier to get a read on him as well as how other people would react to it. Also at this time I was actually pretty convinced he thought he was in danger (coming from an earlier post of his that I don't recall)

this is a lot of words to explain that you votes someone for pressure. less weird with context (ok i should really catch up. not tonight though. phone posting etc.). still a lot though

Can you clarify why you don't like 563? I'm not sure what you mean.

For 569, yeah, I use a lot of words. The reason I made 563 is because someone wanted me to clarify the meaning and thought process behind that post.

It's your choice whether you want to go back and read, but you are going to miss a lot of context, especially between our two slots.

[KatyKimFanClub]

563 in previous post should say 569

[KatyKimFanClub]

I also expect RN to finally explain why they claimed BP. This question was brought up some time ago and hasn’t been answered.

The only explanation I see at this point is WIFOM?

[KatyKimFanClub]

UNVOTE: Civil

I'll put a vote on my top scumread tomorrow.

weird post.

Why?

makes me ask multiple questions that are not immediately obvious.

who is your top scum read
why tomorrow
you are still posting today so it doesn't follow that you have to wait till tomorrow.
just an odd post overall.

you are going way down in my reads list.

I was tired when I made the post and didn't want to think about it tonight. I honestly don't know who my top scumread right now which is why I wanted to look at it with fresh eyes tomorrow. In fact I really made the post to inspire myself to stop posting and go to bed, but Hu Tao wanted me to ISO someone.

I'm still posting because I'm addicted to this game.

[KatyKimFanClub]

VOTE: Bellaphant

Mischaracterization of my defense of Bazuf bothers me too much. I think it was an intentional sheeping of Civil in that regard.

[KatyKimFanClub]

KKFC - it was meant to be a simple observation or humorous depending on one’s mood. Maybe catch up before you post.

That answer was coherent to you? You speak monosyllabic cryptic nonsense? Then by all means translate.

I think this was meant for Yimmy?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Oh I see the formatting now, my bad

[KatyKimFanClub]

Really hoping to get something from Starfire soon since she should be out of V/LA recently.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I think IAVH is town.

I fear that we might have a Strongman or even a BP Goon

Does this make you think RN is more likely to be scum? It makes me think that.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I messed up my quote (mobile).

I'm thinking why t!vig would out self so early.

This is why I think he's town (I already did but more now)

[KatyKimFanClub]

I would note that KKFC has entered that radius.

I don’t think it’s fair to say that. I’m saying that if there is a bulletproof Goon, then you would be very likely to be that role. Similarly, if there was no Vig, I would suspect you more.

I do not had any issues with your actual claim to be honest.

[KatyKimFanClub]

why would no cc make it right

I wanted to say that since nobody cc-ed Civil´s claim, he is most probably town and he´s right in that suspecting him right now is crazy.

A vig wouldn’t cc Civil they would just shoot him

[KatyKimFanClub]

Well that’s my point. You were overly paranoid

[KatyKimFanClub]

I’m not scumreading you for it, actually I think being consistently paranoid is a town trait, especially since we’re going nowhere with a wagon as of yet. I was just using that example to point out that you seek mis-calibrated so far this game

[KatyKimFanClub]

Starfire is null for me.

Someone asked me about 3 scumreads. To be honest, I can't think of a strong third at this point. So far I have Bella and Greeting, with a preference for Bella. I could see an argument for StD occupying my third slot but most people who have played more with StD seem to disagree with me quite easily.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Bob and PC are in my blindspot right now. I have spent no energy trying to sort them today.
I think Naerys is pretty scummy but I'd rather not sort today. RN is like one tick on the scummy side of null? The only reason I want to distinguish it is because I have put thought into sorting him, unlike the people who are null. Civil is a townlean.
I'm very confident that Yimmy is town.

Town
KKFC
Yimmy
Civil, IAVH
Bob (?), PC (?), Hu Tao, Starfire (no data really)
RN
StD
Greeting, Naerys
Bellaphant
Scum

[KatyKimFanClub]

You're not even going to try to make a case for Naerys?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Can you link this game?

A bulletproof miller indicates to me there’s a vig in the game. From a setup standpoint, I’m not sure why else the Miller would be bulletproof. Looking at the archives, the only other game with a 1-shot bulletproof Miller did have a vig.

Now, if we get to endgame and there isn’t a vig shot or claim, then I’ll be a little suspicious.

Iavh what do you think of this analysis?

viewtopic.php?p=11136030#p11136030

[KatyKimFanClub]

Could it be Naerys and Greeting?

Can you walk me through this? I think I agree I just want to hear why.

[KatyKimFanClub]

It doesn't, but I don't think it's worth voting today.

For what it’s worth I think shes decently scummy independent of claim but I agree we should sort outside her claim today.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Should we give her a pool of people to JK or no

I'm not sure what would make a good pool

[KatyKimFanClub]

V/LA 30 hours

[KatyKimFanClub]

I'm not sure what scum!PC looks like, but getting dragged into protracted, somewhat antagonistic 1v1s doesn't seem that scummy for him.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Trying to think of what Bob and Civil both voting for PC means? Probably nothing but it's an interesting wagon proposal.

[KatyKimFanClub]

There’s too many assumptions going on for me to have any real change of opinion on the leading wagons. We’re talking replacements and the weekend.

I agree that we will get good associative info for later days though.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Also, it’s generally hard for scum to extricate themselves from votes in stalled game scenarios like last weekend.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Bob's assumptions about the current wagon.

Mainly the one that scum would have broken a deadlock if one of the players on the wagon is scum.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I could see town!Bob doing this, since he seems largely interested in playing the game from a mathematical perspective motivated by such assumptions, but it also just seems weirdly arbitrary. Like why are Starfire, PC, and Bella, in particular, town when there were earlier wagons that similarly stalled (Greeting, Naerys)?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Its interesting that the lead wagons have been pretty static for the last 3-4 days and neither of them have hit the 4 vote mark. Its very much a strong signs that we have entirely missed the mark and that starfire, pc and bella are all town.

Aren't you voting for PC?

[KatyKimFanClub]

That’s enough players out right now that this wagonomics business is kind of out the window right?

Yes, this is also my point

[KatyKimFanClub]

To me, IAVH looks like someone who made an early exit from a previous game (the one RN is referencing) for some questionable town antics. Whether he's scum looking to distance himself from that playstyle or town who is making more of an effort, I'm not sure.

Independent of that, he seems pretty town though.

[KatyKimFanClub]

viewtopic.php?p=13844586#p13844586 is a PC wallpost from the game I completed with him. Other example from that game would be 756 or 763.


From this game? Something like 353.

[KatyKimFanClub]

To me, PC has a very unique style that comes across in their posts. If I had to define it, I would say pretty rambling/stream of consciousness-y?

[KatyKimFanClub]

I might be guilty of overlooking PC sounding really different this game compared to previous ones. I haven't noticed anything yet, though I haven't been reading his conversations that closely.

I do know he can get really combative as town when votes start to pile on him, so that's sort of why I was hoping to sort him after that happened, especially considering our deadline is paused so I had time to do that.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Can you explain the vote and FOS?

[KatyKimFanClub]

How do you think town!KKFC would play this then? You asked me a question relating to PC's posting style and I showed you my thoughts. Is it that you think my evidence is too good or something?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Also, characterizing this as a defense of PC doesn't seem that accurate.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I'm saying CS doesn't think I'm town.

[KatyKimFanClub]

You don't think town!KKFC is going to "play" the game? You're reaching.

[KatyKimFanClub]

ninja'd - Hi KatyKimFanClub, I've read a game or two with you in them, unsure if they finished so I won't say more but hype to play a game with you#

:O. I'm excited to play with you too!

You're right I actually slipped here in post 21 but no one noticed.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Like there are literally 50 posts in this game where people use the word play to describe playing Mafia? Why pick me here and now to push someone over it?

[KatyKimFanClub]

I’m voting for Bella currently. If it gets no traction and the deadline clock starts again I’ll probably pivot to Greeting/Looker or Starfire’s replacement.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Ah the ole policy lim, ya love to see it.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Dannflor entrance into game feels +town.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Maybe it's just because he townreads me

[KatyKimFanClub]

I feel like the only real difference I get when I'm reading PC's so far is that he is playing more defense and it feels like he knows less than previous games? I'm pretty used to town!PC having some really sharp analysis that reveals something new, but I haven't seen that this game. These two ideas are definitely correlated.

[KatyKimFanClub]

In actuality, it's pretty beneficial to scum to know where the JK is targeting. JK can be a fairly negative utility role to town, but the best thing it can do is block the scum factional kill. You advocating for a pool of targets, or even yourself, feels like a ploy to make the JK functionally useless for town. If you actually believed Naerys was town, you wouldn't want this either, you'd want Naerys to have a chance to do something useful for town.

I do appreciate how Hu Tao did this from a fairly non-role-fishy way? It seems to be coming from a town perspective.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Did you not find Greeting's posting in this game scummy?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Using a loaded question, yet does give any specific posts that they think are scummy. Very easy for scum to do as they dont have to back up there own read. Kim sicne you have asked this loaded question which of greetings posts do you scummy? As far as i can tell your scum read on greeting and bella stem from them beign low posters

I think you're misreading my quote. I was asking about Greeting because I didn't know if Dannflor was treating the slot as a whole or not.
I figured he read the entire thing since he said "slot" but that didn't make sense since Greeting felt pretty AI at times?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Also if you scum read greetings slot then why are you not voting looker. Feels to me you just waiting to see which way the wind blows


Also whats the reason for your scum read on bella and naerys

Are you going to read my posts or just say random shit?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Do you still or no longer scum read greeting/looker?

I’m voting for Bella currently. If it gets no traction and the deadline clock starts again I’ll probably pivot to Greeting/Looker or Starfire’s replacement.

[KatyKimFanClub]

How am I fence sitting? I literally told everyone what I was going to do?

[KatyKimFanClub]

that didn't make sense since Greeting felt pretty AI at times?

what does this mean

I'll try to break down my thoughts chronologically.
1) I saw you read Greeting/Looker slot and voted for them. You mentioned you didn't like that the slot didn't try to do anything AI.
2) I was a little confused by this because I felt as though Greeting was pretty obviously scummy and did things (like not contribute at all) that are generally regarded as AI.
3) I asked you about this so I could know more about the situation.
In retrospect, I can see how my question would be interpreted differently, but I'm confused about why bob thinks I'm fence sitting considering I told everyone that I would vote Greeting if my current vote got not traction.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Considering that the person I am currently voting for hasn't posted since 801 I'm a little confused what new information you want? I think you're grasping at straws here.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Katy, you're town reading PC, yeah?

I would say pretty confidently null. He hasn't exploded yet which makes me like his slot a little less?

[KatyKimFanClub]

out of looker and pc i would go PC.. but players making choice is always good for town and Kim is very much fence sitting at the moment

You're the one being actively anti-productive to any majority vote going through today? You're going to vote me over the guy whose had your vote for the entirety of today based on a post you misread?

[KatyKimFanClub]

If your basis is that I am trying to get Dannflor to vote for Greeting, how does that make any sense? He was literally already voting for him at the time I made my "loaded question".

[KatyKimFanClub]

So you cant then. As this player has been replaced so you should have atleast something to say about what was your top scum read. What do you think on their read on pc, aboiut their view on what to do about RN miller claim. And if this changes your read on them or the gamestate in any way

Can you read my fucking post history man

[KatyKimFanClub]

I'm not interested in being litigated over this considering you haven't even bothered to understand my reads the first time.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I’m about to drive home and I’m not doing that either way

[KatyKimFanClub]

VOTE: Looker

[KatyKimFanClub]

1-shot Bulletproof Miller Vig is like the meme fake claim for serial killers.

I don't think he claimed Vig, just 1-shot BP miller.

yeah you know you're voting for bbmolla now right?

Yeah, but I was pretty stuck on Bella since it was the name we were talking about at the time.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Also, I think Looker is at E-1 now?

[KatyKimFanClub]

so if they were town they would follow the logic that they cant get bella and the slot is empty. However, greeting there other scum read is getting run up instead they ignor it until it reachs e-2. That was also 5 days latter so they choose to vanity vote on a slot that wasnt posting instead of one of their otehr scum reeds

The deadline was paused for like 4 of those 5 days. I was waiting to move my vote because of replacements coming in and some other IRL activity things. If you check the dates for Day 1 one of them was a weekend that I was out of town for.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Starfire is null for me.

Someone asked me about 3 scumreads. To be honest, I can't think of a strong third at this point. So far I have Bella and Greeting, with a preference for Bella. I could see an argument for StD occupying my third slot but most people who have played more with StD seem to disagree with me quite easily.

ya'll are blatantly mischaracterizing kkfc you don't even give a fuck lmao

Found like we found the only guy who actually read my Day 1 posts?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Starfire is null for me.

Someone asked me about 3 scumreads. To be honest, I can't think of a strong third at this point. So far I have Bella and Greeting, with a preference for Bella. I could see an argument for StD occupying my third slot but most people who have played more with StD seem to disagree with me quite easily.

ya'll are blatantly mischaracterizing kkfc you don't even give a fuck lmao

Says he scum reads greeting but never tried to push him. Even when I asked him to look into greeting he sidestepped the convo

What? I said I would vote for him at end of day?
Also, I definitely responded to your request to ISO greeting.

Hu Tao who is your second most likely scumread?

If I had to choose, star. But I would highly prefer greeting today. Thoughts?

Not really any currently. I've been lumping them together in my mind up to now.

Can I request you iso greeting?

Greeting ISO:

Just going to do the notable posts from my reread since I'm really tired.

56: puts Civil at E-2, which seems kind of illogical when you read 78?

239: It's pretty fair to say Civil gave off Newbie vibes at this point, and personally I think the earnestness was +town, but Greeting saying it's NAI seems ok. There's actually a presumption here that Greeting mentions again in 247 which is that a confused newbie would get townread. I think holding that idea is pretty +town since it indicates to me that at least some scumhunting process in place?

493/516: Feel like Greeting's re-use of some of my arguments against Civil Scum is actually kind of weird? I like how it's phrased as confirmation bias, but that's just a very small thing.

Just generally, I think the responses to all the cross-flak haven't been great, especially since the claim of being productive this game is just untrue.

Also 368 seems truthful, since IAVH definitely got more town from 240 to 368 in my opinion. But that just sort of begs the question of why Greeting has been lurking and then claiming that they're not?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Like idk what to say other than Bob and Hu Tao are blatantly lying about my Day 1 lol.

[KatyKimFanClub]

any town player on me needs to unvote now. Im supper obvously a town pr with result on kim. i vote kim out the gate and hard push there, should of been clear that i was trying to get kim to e-1 to get claim without needing to out myself

So you were so confident I was scum Day 1 that you decided to investigate me? That's totally something someone who was a town PR would do! Pretty blatantly scum now.

VOTE: Bob

[KatyKimFanClub]

like why does scum me nk kill dann when they were town read me, serously.

Why does scum me nk dann when they townread me?

You guys realize that Bob's case makes zero sense right?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Fucked up the quote in previous quote. bob said that not RN

[KatyKimFanClub]

This is so hilariously theatrical. Are you going to retract or not?

[KatyKimFanClub]

I'm an Odd-Night Rolestopper.

[KatyKimFanClub]

VOTE: KKFC

[KatyKimFanClub]

gg! well played town

[KatyKimFanClub]

I'm ok with no redactions