Mini 2307 | Songs from Glee! | Endgame

[KatyKimFanClub]

Day 1 gives me anxiety

[KatyKimFanClub]

Scumhunting is hard

[KatyKimFanClub]

For me, I have more information the later the game goes and so I can build an actual case without going crazy.

[KatyKimFanClub]

want to setup solve someone? I'm clearly incapable of doing it on a kindle

I'm not rly a mechtalk person but are we sure the theme/flavour even has a link to the setup in the first place?

Like I don't rly see the use in speculating about the set-up at the start of Day 1 when none of the games I've played in or read so far in the normal queue have had a noticeable link between flavour and roles. Albeit this is just from my experience someone correct me if I'm wrong here.

I actually think in normal queue the flavor is specifically supposed to be separated from having specific roles.
Also the roles need to be Normal so no singer or screamer I think?

[KatyKimFanClub]

From my perspective I've experienced so many players in their own little boxes that presume Scum/Town must play this way or that way.

How do you best navigate Day 1? I'm sure you know my main and that I struggle with Day 1 in general.

Exchange feels town, especially with RN being newish to MS.

Is RN new?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Is RN new?

How do you best navigate Day 1? I'm sure you know my main and that I struggle with Day 1 in general.

Not that it really matters, but I only included the RN quote from 39 there because it implied he wasn't new.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I don't think Singer is a normal role (at least according to the wiki).

It's unclear to me whether Normal games are even allowed to have flavor to the extent that specific role speculation is possible, though I am interested in someone answering this question for me.

[KatyKimFanClub]

It's pretty accurate, but I don't think it means that much on Page 4. There are a couple of people in this game I've played with before as both scum and town, so I don't think it would be fair to assume I wouldn't change my meta to adjust for that. If I were you, I would have probably held onto that to try to get a better read later in the Day.

Turning this onto an analysis of you: The chain of logic here seem moderately +town. I don't think I buy the "oh, I just realized KKFC was in that game too, here are my thoughts on KKFC by the way" transition, but I don't really think that means much.

Question for Daisy, would you believe me if I told you I'm trying to merge my honestly-quite-distinct-as-of-two-completed-games town and scum metas?

[KatyKimFanClub]

An erroneous lim because the mod miscounted a vote, in a game of Mafia, is bad.

WHY are you arguing?

I'm pretty sure people know how to read
I'm arguing because I refuse to say I'm wrong.

I LOL'ed

[KatyKimFanClub]

I don't think I'm going to spend any energy trying to solve iavh slot this game.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I mean, you're trying to use a meta read on Page 4. I'm not really sure what you think the appropriate response or discussion would be. Here are all my posts by Page 4 from the game you've read.

Hey everyone, I'm new to forum mafia but I've played on epicmafia and in person before. I'm super excited to play with y'all!

VOTE: VOTE: Cook

[KatyKimFanClub]

Sure, but saying I failed the reaction test when it was pretty obviously one seems a little harsh, right?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Considering playing a game by only using quotes from ITYSL. Feel like I wouldn't last very long though.

[KatyKimFanClub]

VOTE: kkfc

hmm....skygazer could actually be scum...interesting

@PP is there a correlation between these two posts?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Let's hold on to our horses. I haven't even had my coffee yet and I'm at E-1.

[KatyKimFanClub]

If I'm following your logic, you think Skygazer and I are the scumteam then?

[KatyKimFanClub]

I don't think he would put me at the top of a readslist if so, especially since I haven't really done anything yet this game. If anything, given what I think are your inherent suspicions of Skygazer, shouldn't you think I'm being set up?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Unrelated to game ---

Sometimes I see posts made to the thread between the time I started writing a post and when I submit and sometimes I don't. Is there a known reason for this? Like if I have multiple tabs of the same thread open or?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Intent to hammer

Uh........... what?

[KatyKimFanClub]

who is setting you up and how?

Nevermind, I thought you were using 159 for your read on Skygazer in 166. In my head, I was just thinking like "wait why does this guy scumread me for Skygazer townreading me?"

[KatyKimFanClub]

Unrelated to game ---

Sometimes I see posts made to the thread between the time I started writing a post and when I submit and sometimes I don't. Is there a known reason for this? Like if I have multiple tabs of the same thread open or?

it's called a preview edit (p-edit) and it's intentional so you don't actually hammer if you don't mean to or need to address something that was posted while you were writing

Yes but sometimes I don't get the pedit even with posts being made in the interim.

[KatyKimFanClub]

A little confused as to what I've done (or not done!) to get 5 people to scumread me this early into a game.
Weirdly, I think Daisy and Skygazer might be the only people on this wagon to truly believe in a case against me?

I'm most confused by Elements claiming intent to hammer for sure though.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Eh, I can see why you scumread for that, but it's very much an intentional decision.

I'm not interested in giving away my reads this early, nor do I care about advancing the game state if I think that the current one is good enough for town. If you would like me to elaborate on my philosophy, I can, but as an example, I think I get more towards solving the game if I can keep disscussion on why Daisy and iavh think a meta read on me is relevant by Page 4 than if I move on to a different topic.

I guess to clarify my position, advancing the game state is generally good, but I don't really see what giving my reads this early would really do. We have a lot of time left in the day to gather information and I don't think there's been enough time in the game for me to have a significant change in opinion on people's alignments yet.

[KatyKimFanClub]

If the idea is that y'all (collective y'all) want to speed up the game and think that my not giving reads is impeding, and so you're going to wagon me for a reaction, then fair play.
I will say it's very easy to look like you're advancing the game state by throwing votes onto someone, and in fact this is probably what at least one scum member would be doing right now.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I don't think he would put me at the top of a readslist if so, especially since I haven't really done anything yet this game. If anything, given what I think are your inherent suspicions of Skygazer, shouldn't you think I'm being set up?

Weirdly, I think Daisy and Skygazer might be the only people on this wagon to truly believe in a case against me?

These two takes feel incompatible (granted i just had a read flip flop myself but yeah)

Take 1 is saying that this is what PP should be wondering.
Take 2 is my own opinion.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Fair, but if your worry is that I'm being fed lines by a partner, then I hope I've assuaged some of those suspicions by now?

[KatyKimFanClub]

but I don't really see what giving my reads this early would really do.

allow us to ask why and....advance the gamestate.

Wasn't that the point of the wagon in the first place? to force me to react? Not sure why your tone sounds like you've caught me in some gotcha or something lol.

In general, I don't really believe in my reads this early into a game. In an ideal world, the way I would like to find scum would be looking at pairwise interactions and also consistency in how they've played the game.

[KatyKimFanClub]

And both of those ideas take a little bit of time. I think when we get down into it it's mostly just that I don't have confidence in forming strong reads early and so I'd rather spectate and focus on defending myself as the game starts to speed up.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Fair, but if your worry is that I'm being fed lines by a partner, then I hope I've assuaged some of those suspicions by now?

1) what an interesting conclusion to jump to
2) so you're saying your partner is inexperienced and unhelpful?

I thought that was the implication when you said "time management" and from posts 196 and 240 with PP.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Wasn't that the point of the wagon in the first place? to force me to react?

no

i mean - the answer is no, scum could jump on them as an easy push....but, early D1 wagons almost never lead to an elim so now seems like a weird time to do that.

If I've been coming across as fairly nonchalant in my responses to people, to be honest this post has been why.

I guess I should ask you why you think I'm scum, PP?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Wasn't that the point of the wagon in the first place? to force me to react?

no

If you're not voting me for a reaction then you're voting me because you think I'm scum, right?

[KatyKimFanClub]

I don't really think it's fair to say that I haven't engaged with the people scum reading me?

[KatyKimFanClub]

I'm a little confused by what you mean honestly.

[KatyKimFanClub]

"not engaging" might have been a poor choice of phrasing but you yourself admitted you werent taking it seriously

In tone, yes, but I think taking the comment where I say "nonchalant" and scumreading it is a weird conclusion to take out of the last few pages where I clearly have been very attentive to defending myself.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Your logic is getting more tenuous as this thread progresses and I don't like that. If you're grasping at straws or if this was all for a reaction then that's fair. What I don't like are the arguments in 252 and 255 especially since you're whole posture on this wagon has been "yes I scumread you from your ISO and here are my reasons"

In 252, your take-away from 249 is that I haven't really been engaging in my defense of myself. It just looks to me like you found a word to push on and are trying that. I'm clearly referring to my tone here, and that is quite different than what you're talking about specifically because you mention "engaging". It doesn't make any sense to scumread me for a lack of engagement given the last few pages.

In 255, you're scumreading me for jumping to assuming timing tells refer to possible mafia partners? To be honest, I thought this was the dominant takeaway from looking at people's timing in their posts. Either way, my comment about post timing is saying "shouldn't you be townreading me for this if you're townreading PP for it". I don't really get why that's suspicious at all, I'm saying you should have the same conclusion for timing tells between two players right?

[KatyKimFanClub]

your whole posture*

[KatyKimFanClub]

In 255, you're scumreading me for jumping to assuming timing tells refer to possible mafia partners? To be honest, I thought this was the dominant takeaway from looking at people's timing in their posts.

Just as a fun teaser, Daisy do you want to answer why it would be reasonable for me to think this?

[KatyKimFanClub]

what if it's not a timing tell but based on the content that was expressed

what if...

Are you talking about your own interactions with Skygazer here or 255?

[KatyKimFanClub]

I'm saying you should have the same conclusion for timing tells between two players right?

You're also the scummiest in my PoE at the moment... Penguin had some good real time engagement with me...

Ok, I see where you guys are coming from now.
Honestly when I read 240 I interpreted it along the lines as Skygazer townreading a "good response time". Hence my question of why he didn't extend the same read to me.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Probably Skygazer if he keeps pushing 252 otherwise probably just Elements since I think he's just openwolfing as scum.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Admittedly, I feel better about Skygazer's push after reading 240 more carefully.

[KatyKimFanClub]

so why aren't you voting?

Well, I've been pretty busy defending myself. Yes, I could have voted my strongest scumread and use my vote as an indicator of my reads but I was hoping to finish this conversation thread before moving to offense.

[KatyKimFanClub]

katy, if you were forced to vote right now who would you vote?

so why aren't you voting?

Are these two part question/hammer type posts meant to be some sort of gotcha? They're kinda funny.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I think it's just your tone. Sorry if you're not trying to come across the way I just think a lot of the zingers paired with the ...'s make me feel a little bit dismissed?

[KatyKimFanClub]

about to go back to the grind but generally nonchalantness is a scum tell from my experience; nsg has caught me a few times bc i didn't engage in people scum reading early me in hopes it would just go away. town usually engage more when they get scumread despite the unlikeliness of getting eliminated early

tbh your defensiveness is fairly scummy

Discord amongst the brain trust...

[KatyKimFanClub]

as of right now i think scum is in kkfc/random nurse/IAVH/Delta

This is such a big narrowing of a scumpool and it's exactly everyone who isn't on the wagon or hasn't interacted positively with it. I don't really know what it means besides the possibility that Skygazer is that confident in me?
Yes, Iavh is on the wagon, but that vote on me is from the day before and sheeping Daisy's meta read. I don't think it "counts" in that sense.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Skygazer reads a lot like someone who has a strong set of personal heuristics for what is +town and what is +scum and so I think I buy something as aggressive as the really narrow scum pool in 227 and their push on me?

Though if you can narrow down scum to 4 people in 9p you've already won the game.

I'd say its more likely for Skygazer to be town than PP (most confident on these reads) but honestly I'm pretty null on PP.


Only other significant opinion I have is that I'm still upset that Daisy is using a meta read on Page 4 and that it gained traction. Maybe a little +scum as of response to 263?

[KatyKimFanClub]

I gave reads in 294.

[KatyKimFanClub]

If you wanted my full set of reads Daisy, it feels to me like Elements and IAVH are just going to openwolf (I use this word a lot and I really hope it means what I think it does. Based on google-fu it does) this game.

I don't really have a read on Delta since they're catching up out of V/LA.


Kitty hasn't posted in a while but I feel like I like that slot given what I just reread. 78 comes across as genuine enough.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Only other significant opinion I have is that I'm still upset that Daisy is using a meta read on Page 4 and that it gained traction. Maybe a little +scum as of response to 263?

Would it help your read if I told you that in mini norm 2302 I, as town, also brought up meta points to create/inform pushes at the start of the game?

It makes me feel better, yes.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I'm getting some bad vibes since coming off V/LA from KKFC, I don't see much justification for 'openwolfing' which is their justification for scumreading Elements and IAVH and since it's not backed up with a vote, it comes across as cautious scum to me rather than cautious townie.

I don't scumread either really. If you mean justification for why I think they're openwolfing, it just looks to me like neither is trying to look very town. iavh with the setup speculation involving non-Normal roles and then posts like 115 or 141 that get pretty self-referential and play into the existing trope? Elements I just didn't really get the intent to hammer post and then subsequent disengagement from the game (maybe just busy or timing, idk)

If you meant justification for why I scumread them for openwolfing, I don't really? I figure for iavh that he gets scumread regardless of alignment quite often and so there's no need to put energy into looking town. For elements I'm not sure, but the "intent to hammer" post seems brazen enough that I don't know how often scum does it this early into the game.

A lot of people are getting on me for not voting, but I don't really have a counter wagon prepared yet. I'll vote when I'm more ready.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I have noticed there's only 3 and a half days left so I should probably get some reads

So you intended to hammer me without any reads?

[KatyKimFanClub]

VOTE: Elements

If the idea was to provoke a reaction or a defense, then you should probably have considered the fact that there was already significant pressure on me. Seems like a lazy attempt to get on a wagon with the fallback defense of "reaction farming". Especially after you admit you don't have any reads.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Seems legit enough.

UNVOTE:

[KatyKimFanClub]

For the most part I agree with this logic, I think if KKFC has a partner it's probably somewhere in [RN, Kitty] for not being there to protect their partner (Delta would've fallen into this group but he sussed KKFC p hard when he came back) or if there is a paired scum around the push it would be in [IAVH, Elements].

But yea [RN, Kitty, IAVH, Elements] is 4/7 of the possible partners in the game (from my POV ofc), and this is if we discount the more wifommy bussing situations with the others that I don't rly wanna explore right now

So you're pretty confident that I am not getting bussed. I think I am getting town vibes from Skygazer and I don't really have an opinion of PP pushing me or Delta scumreading me yet. I like Delta pushing on iavh, but I am wary of his scumread on me during his reread. It seems like a somewhat safe way to keep a possible miselim open. Especially after you unvote me in 288 with a caveat that you're ok re-committing to the wagon later. As town I think he's going into that with much more of a hammer mentality though.

If I'm town who among the people pushing me do you think is scum (if any)?

[KatyKimFanClub]

However I do feel the wagon on you was fairly justified, at least from my POV of reactive/defensive play typically being scummy, so I don't read these players as all that scummy right now because I agreed with the reasons why they were pushing you

Their reasons are pretty different than yours/iavh's though.

[KatyKimFanClub]

It seems to me you're going through this analysis with the expectation that other people are going to be playing straightforwardly. Like I'm defensive so I have something to hide, or iavh says he's sheeping you so he's town. I don't think this game is going to be that straightforward. Then again, this makes you trust me a little more than I did yesterday.

[KatyKimFanClub]

KKFC gives me more null pings than IAVH but no actual scum pings. IAVH town tho.

Why? I really disagree they're doing anything in the town interest right now so to see someone outright labelling them town is weird to me.

Agree with this pretty much. I could see a nullread on IAVH but it's hard for me to give evidence or imagine a reason for him to be town at this point in the game.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I agree that labelling them as town is a tough sell. Personally I think he's the definition of null (imagining chaotic neutral on an alignment chart).

[KatyKimFanClub]

Oh I see the issue with my wording. When I say "reason for him to be town" I really meant "reason for him to be townread". Sorry.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Today? Yeah.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Eh, I guess this is the best option in a game where I'm townreading a lot of people.


[post=iamveryhappy]iamveryhappy[/post]

[KatyKimFanClub]

Jeez.

VOTE: iamveryhappy

[KatyKimFanClub]

I'm sorry for making you wait :'(

[KatyKimFanClub]

eyy I'm special~

I asked you a question back in #381 and you're now deliberately skirting this.

IAVH has seen that a number of you are townreading this behaviour and has no motivation to change. They can meme their way through D1 and coast through D2 and to be honest I dont know if I have the capacity to townread them for doing absolutely nothing.

I'd also say it'd be pretty easy for scum to park their vote on IAVH because of how they're playing. This is like 3 days now with no game-advancing content, it's easy to justify a vote on them. The fact that a wagon hasn't formed on them tells me one of 2 things:

1- Scum are aware enough to keep Happy around as limbait for D2. They think another wagon can be pushed to completion (IE: KKFC). In this scenario, I would say that KKFC earns a townread from me.
2 - (My Preferred Solve on this) That Happy is scum, able to act irreverently and be townread for doing a whole load of not much and have their vote parked on a popular wagon. Their vote is on KKFC.

I'm content with removing KKFC from my lim pool for today based on this, as I think that either way, the associatives paint KKFC as town not scum. There's flaws with this logic, but I do think this is where my vote is going to stay for some time.

I like this for reasons beyond the fact that KKFC and townread are in the same sentence. IAVH is clearly in WIFOM territory.

[KatyKimFanClub]

it does seem like it'll come down to kkfc and iavh today, i think both flips would generate info. ignoring associatives and just going off of behavior, i think kkfc's posting looks like it has a self-serving agenda behind it compared to iavh who is just being difficult on purpose despite the wagon on them. me thinks it makes it more likely that kkfc will flip scum than iavh

That's just how I sound as town, idk.

[KatyKimFanClub]

good luck town, II've given you some hints in the most unorthodox way.

If you're town then you need to make the information more clear for people. Scum already knows alignments and we don't, so if you have some sort of information or soulread you should just say it.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Readslist:


I think I like Skygazer's slot a little less than I did yesterday. For some reason his initial reaction to iavh soft and then move to 451 doesn't seem like the most realistic town thought process. I don't think 3) in that post is ever happening unless I'm the one counterclaiming as scum. Also, if iavh softs as PR without hardclaiming, then scum, as the team with more information, is just at such a huge advantage in N1 imo. Maybe I'm thinking about Newbie games where the setup is basically confirmed within a few small configurations though. I don't really think anything bad of them setting up a flip on me tomorrow after this. That's consistent with the rest of their gameplay.

Overall:

townlean

Daisy's play definitely seems towny, but now I'm starting to be a little more skeptical mainly because I reread 393 again. I think wagon dynamics on iavh also play a part. If iavh flips scum I'm pretty happy saying Daisy is

town

.

Different from my original reason. I don't think my meta read really holds much ground anymore? Because whilst you have been defensive and reactive (things that my biases go grrr at), you've not been passive and that was the crux of my read on Page 4.

Honestly, I hate 393 because it seems inconsistent with the rest of Daisy's play. For one, they clearly value meta as a way to help evaluate people. 393 goes against that, basically saying "look this meta read was wrong", but there's this other heuristic that I think is naturally scummy. The thing is, in my defense I can either be passive or defensive/reactive, and it looks like no matter what I was going to get scumread by Daisy for one. Maybe this is an oversight (I could honestly see it), but the way in which Daisy is evaluating me in this post feels to me like I'm getting set up.

Overall (assuming iavh town flip):

scumlean

I'm pretty happy to say Delta is

town

for now. I don't really know why but it's just a vibes thing at this point.

Null-ish on Elements and Kitty, but I actually think Elements is more

town

between the two.

I think Random Nurse can a sneaky

scum

slot here? I think I'll know more and give a better opinion once IAVH flips because then I can read the early interactions between the two a lot better.

Readslist kind of rushed since twilight probably coming soon (RH australian time zone so I have some time I think).

[KatyKimFanClub]

If anyone is around and wants to bounce ideas off I'm around for the next few hours.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I just realized I forgot PP.

People who sort of run the game Day 1 are in a blindspot for me, but in the interest of giving everyone (including myself) something to work with, I'd say I'm leaning town as well. Don't know if scum would give me such a hard time after my initial wagon considering I'm a pretty easy elim even without their pressure.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Uh....

I just saw everyone else do it.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Can you define defensive and reactive (originally from 393?). It might help me understand more where you're coming from.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Your readlist is a great example of something I've wanted to see from you all game. It now feels like you *are* able to focus on the game as a whole and make reads based on how everyone is acting rather than focusing just on the push on you because that pressure has been relieved for this twilight period.

Sure, I get where you're coming from now. I will say that I did give readslists earlier than just a few hours ago. Chronologically, it did come after the pressure on my push subsided, but if you take my word for it I'm mostly just a focus-on-one-thing-at-a-time player. If you still value meta, you can see an example of this in Newbie 2125, where I spend literally the entirety of Day 1 defending another player in the game. Deltabreedy can also attest to this

[KatyKimFanClub]

I'm not sure what you mean by that PP

[KatyKimFanClub]

Are you talking about me?

[KatyKimFanClub]

I guess I'll stop talking now

[KatyKimFanClub]

A nice plain New York slice that burns the top of your mouth.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I think I like Skygazer's slot a little less than I did yesterday. For some reason his initial reaction to iavh soft and then move to 451 doesn't seem like the most realistic town thought process. I don't think 3) in that post is ever happening unless I'm the one counterclaiming as scum. Also, if iavh softs as PR without hardclaiming, then scum, as the team with more information, is just at such a huge advantage in N1 imo. Maybe I'm thinking about Newbie games where the setup is basically confirmed within a few small configurations though. I don't really think anything bad of them setting up a flip on me tomorrow after this. That's consistent with the rest of their gameplay.

I mostly just thought a backup doctor felt out of place in a micro and wanted to see if that's what they were going to claim or not. The way they claimed seemed very survivalistic/ungeniune (lol) as well so I wanted them to be less wishy washy with it because if they were a PR they probably had a strong chance of being nightkilled regardless.

I think I see where you're coming from since IAVH claim seemed super fake and Nurse is probably not a real role in a Micro, but then why was your initial reaction in 449 to say you were still ok with a vote on me? IAVH fakeclaiming either narrows the pool for mafia to shoot for a PR or is just straight up scum. Either way, I feel like that should make you want to get off my wagon and re-evaluate, unless you think there's deadline pressure or something.

[KatyKimFanClub]

kkfc could you expand on your twilight reads list? are you still scumreading oopsie? why is elements townier than kitty in your eyes?

I think Element's intent to hammer post was actually pretty towny, especially after the thought process came out. I know Daisy mentioned that there being a motivation behind the post made her like Elements less, but I sort of disagree.

I don't know how often scum pile onto the wagon on me in such a transparently fake way (no questions for me, no actual comments during the wagon on me, yet an intent to hammer post). I think Elements would either lie low (with iavh, Kitty, and RN at the time) or fully commit. I guess I could see them fully committing if their partner was one of iavh, Kitty, and RN) or lying low if their partner was already on the wagon, but either way, it seems a little too brazen for scum and would have been out of place given the flow of the game, imo.

Like, from an objective view it's definitely scummy to put an intent to hammer on someone without actually participating in the thread or wanting to hammer someone, but it seems so random I actually think Elements was trying to get information out of me in a towny way?

[KatyKimFanClub]

i think kkfc is the way to go. iavh softing is unideal but i've seen many an overexcited townie drop unnecessary hints about their role so i don't think it really changes my read on them either way. i think i spotted their soft and so did oopsie so i wouldn't be opposed to them full claiming at this point since scum can probably easily scope it out too.

1) was trying to goad them into feeling safe outting here; if they had claimed backup doc i'd probably instavote them
2) i still thought you were more likely of the two to flip scum as ive stated numerous times
3) i was literally gonna put them to e1 when they retracted and then stepped away to do something and they got hammered

Yeah, all that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

[KatyKimFanClub]

In the interest of being a little more decisive, I'm going to make a few assumptions to help me try to solve the game from there. This isn't really something I've tried before but in a smaller game it might be helpful?

Assumptions:
1) There was at least one scum on my wagon.
2) There was at least one scum on IAVH wagon.
3) Between the two wagons, it was more likely for scum to be on my wagon since it was earlier and the IAVH wagon seemed more likely to happen (maybe circular logic but still)
4) The scumteam was not on both wagons.

People on my wagon: Daisy, iavh, Skygazer, PP
People on IAVH wagon: Delta, KKFC, Elements, PP, Daisy

I think I can throw out a Daisy/PP team, but I might be suspect of one of them individually.
Does a Skygazer/Elements team make sense so far? Going to think about that overnight.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Cool - just realize that you are actively harming the game state similar to the person that you lambasted yesterday.

I think if you were Town you would know better.

What do you mean by this, RN?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Sorry - was this referring to the eod vc or...what?

Because if you are saying there was zero scum on both wagons all day I'm going to just laugh...if I could review the wagons.

Sorry if I wasn't being clear. I was saying there was a scum on both my wagon (everyone who had voted up until Elements intent to hammer or slightly after) and one scum on the IAVH wagon that condemned him.

I don't think there was zero scum on both wagons, that would be a pretty epic town implosion and I don't see it happening even though IAVH and I probably did not present as very towny.

[KatyKimFanClub]

4) The scumteam was not on both wagons.

Means that I don't think both members were on both wagons. That's why I don't think a team of you (PP) / Daisy would make sense at this point.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Not gonna lie, I'm feeling a little stalled in this game. This is really selfish but I really wish we had something investigative from last night to go off.

I still trust Elements somewhat?


[post=Kitty]Kitty[/post]

[KatyKimFanClub]

Oh my god I did it again.

VOTE: Kitty

[KatyKimFanClub]

I get into this bad habit of saying random shit that isn't related to what comes next in my posts.

Not trying to sheep Elements at this point.

[KatyKimFanClub]

My brain inarguably works (arguably) in mysterious ways.

[KatyKimFanClub]

First, I feel bad voting for Kitty right before he made a readslist, but I don't know if there's enough in their townread of me to overcome the inertia of removing my vote yet. Like why do they sheep Delta for his read but not for his presumable townread (by virtue of sending the message to her) on Daisy?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Responding to RN's 892 now.


210, 214: Basically, the way I read it, PP voted for me in 165 and then said that Skygazer might be scum in 166. That made me think he thought the team was me/Skygazer, so when I asked in 205 and he replied in the affirmative with the "yes" GIF in 207 that was my logic in 210. As for 214, it was my defense against that, saying that if we were partners I doubt he would put me at the top of his readslist and so he shouldn't be expecting a team of us. If anything, I thought he would expect Skygazer to be scum and me to be town who Skygazer townread for any sort of nefarious reason. Sort of long-winded but I hope this makes sense.


388: By bussed I mainly mean when scum is on their partner's wagon. I noticed in 385 that Daisy basically had all my possible partners as people who weren't there to actively put votes on me during my wagon. Hence my confidence in Daisy's confidence that I was not being bussed.

Answer to question about PP manipulating the game: Maybe, but I think I have an inherent distrust in people who are better than me at Mafia. I think, as of now, I get more town-vibes from PP steering conversations and putting pressure on people than I do manipulative-scum vibes.


549: this post is kind of long, what parts do you want me to elaborate on?


649: The way I see it, this game is already be lost if both wagons were pure, and so it's fair for me to assume that they weren't, because the level of discussion is good enough to assume that town wouldn't come to two misvotes in Day 1 so readily. It's also a good assumption from my understanding of how scumteams work. Either way, yes, I think your hypothesis that IAVH presented a super straightforward wagon for scum is true. Also, it probably helped that he had like 5% PR equity at that time that he flipped.


660: I see what you mean now, especially after I remember you're an alt!


667: I feel this way in games where I have too many town/nullreads.


668: Sort of a weird POE thing where I think Elements is town and I haven't had time to sort you, so I felt like putting my vote on Kitty isn't that bad.

I liked this post, and what I've read out of your posts on other people. I think I'll save one particular question for when you write up the other people you're sorting (I'll send it on Wednesday worst case so you have time to respond before V/LA).

Questions for you:

1) So I think I know where PP is going on your readslist, but if he's scum do you support my assumption that his partner would probably be distanced from both wagons in Day 1?

2) My flash wagon didn't have much resistance, but it happened at a time that I don't think IAVH, you, or Kitty were very active. If someone were to defend me, would you assume they were more likely than not scum-aligned? Or would it just make me more scummy by virtue of someone defending me (maybe town, maybe my partner, either way my partner doesn't have to?). I'm only asking this because ultimately this seems a little WIFOM-y, since I don't think I was getting hammered either way and one could argue an IAVH wagon was pretty inevitable.

3) I guess a lot of your questions/commentary on me is coming from a lot earlier in the game, and in the context of your argument with PP I wanted to ask if you just prefer to give later reads for any particular philosophical reason?

Last note: I noticed you asked for reasons people voted for IAVH. Truthfully I put it on him very early in the day because he seemed a little too open-wolfy / anti-town, and I already had null-to-town reads a decent number of people, so it was a safe vote to park. Then, he sort of imploded and got wagon'ed while I wasn't checking the thread / busy IRL. My activity after the wagon was sort of an atonement for that.

[KatyKimFanClub]

718 / 719 makes me like Skygazer more and RN less.

The way I see it, Skygazer might sort of be tunneling on RN because of his scumpool, but it's a very valid point to bring up and something that scum might see but a critical town definitely would.

Ok RN time for your last question I promised you. If the team is Skygazer/PP, who were both active during the IAVH wagon, why would one not try to guide it back onto me? Seems like an easy way to pocket IAVH and then vote for someone who has higher PR equity. I don't think it would have drawn much attention, since the D1 vote was really between me and IAVH.

[KatyKimFanClub]

RN, what makes you think it could be a Skygazer/PP team?

Just process of elimination? It's an interesting theory.

[KatyKimFanClub]

RN, what makes you think it could be a Skygazer/PP team?

Just process of elimination? It's an interesting theory.

Personally, I just feel leery/paranoid of them. I feel like PP is trying to control this game, like it's a more manipulative personality in this one. As for Skygazer I feel like he's kind of trying to manipulate other players into voting my slot. He says that voting me feels way too easy, then questions Oopsie like he's trying to get her to change her vote back, then inexplicably sheeps PP in 728.

How do you read those actions, KKFC?

I'm not sure either. On one hand if they are both town, then they probably could have piloted Day 1 a little better. However, I think, as of right now, they're more likely to be right about you than IAVH.
Your AtE pings me the wrong way, especially since Elements' intent to hammer post was almost assuredly fake.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Basically the scumpool in 227 (KKFC/RN/IAVH/Delta) pinged me a bit because Skygazer was holding a townread on IAVH prior to this, but was then pressured by PP about this townread with light accusations of white knighting and possible tmi. Feels like Sky sorta crumpled a bit here when they had made several posts beforehand (118 159) reading the slot as town. 174 exists but the progression feels unnatural to me.

Not trying to catch you in a slip or something but I feel like if 227 pinged you then you should have been suspicious of Skygazer a lot earlier?

Skygazer jumping on initially felt a bit opportunistic but I could buy the switch in POV once it was explained in the thread.

This post (or at least the first half) is more of what I would expect you to think at that stage in the game.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I think for now I'm going to place my vote here. My gut is pinging hard on this slot.

VOTE: Penguin Power

Bad vote
VOTE: RN
E-1

Why do you think it's Daisy?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Personally, I am content waiting for RN to return from V/LA (we have time before deadline for that), but if I had to give an updated and rough readslist, I would say:

Town
---
Elements
Skygazer

PP
Daisy
Kitty

RN
---
Scum

[KatyKimFanClub]

kkfc, why did you come in voting kitty when you have oopsie and rn as scum reads at the end of yesterday?

Don't want to hammer RN while he's on V/LA

[KatyKimFanClub]

Daisy pivot onto me seems kind of forced? Honestly I was super surprised when I saw her vote on me.

[KatyKimFanClub]

VOTE: RN

[KatyKimFanClub]

mmm....help me understand

rt

[KatyKimFanClub]

Your vote seems pretty forced here?

[KatyKimFanClub]

The only other option available looks to be Daisy, but I would prefer RN.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Kinda sick so I think I'm going to go to bed.

Wondering if we managed to find both scum and if that would explain some weird things that have happened today...

[KatyKimFanClub]

kkfc also started role fishing for an investigative result as soon as PP crumbed

If the logic is that I saw the crumb why would I role fish?

[KatyKimFanClub]

I see it now obviously, but I didn't at the time to be honest.

I'm guessing Kitty is vanilla?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Why can't Kitty be a Goon?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Ah.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I think I knew that but I got it confused with Rolecop somehow. This makes things a lot simpler though

I'm about to go to work but I'll be back tonight with my solve.

[KatyKimFanClub]

You still want kkfc today?

Yep, or you.

I think the associatives around you and KKFC are so clear. I know I've been harking on about the intent to hammer post for this entire game but that singlehandedly halted the momentum behind the KKFC wagon early game. I think you were covering for your teammate.

I'm sorry but this doesn't feel true at all. If you read the wagon on me the intent to hammer post wasn't what ended it.

Skygazer puts me at E-1 (I have votes from Daisy and iavh at this point for Meta reasons) at 203, intent to hammer post is 206, discussion related to wagon continues for a while?

This is a pretty blatant misrep of what happened to be honest.

[KatyKimFanClub]

The idea that there are "clear KKFC/Elements" associatives and also that we haven't interacted this game just seems contradictory.

Daisy's case on me is pretty obviously scum motivated.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Let's just split the difference and get Elements.

Skygazer claim seems real enough, since I feel like a 9p game with:

Neopolitan
Messenger
5 VT

2 Mafia Goons / perhaps one PR

Doesn't make much sense from a setup perspective? Also, if Skygazer's role claim is real, then a setup with a Scum Bodyguard or really any Scum Protective doesn't make sense without a 3rd town PR.


@Skygazer I will make my case later for Daisy/Elements, but I urge you to look at the context of 96, where Daisy unvotes her partner and pushes what we should all see by now is a premature meta case on me that she only really ever retracted in name. Like, do we think that this read that I'm a passive player is even fair to give on post 96 of a game? It has to be because Elements is at 3 votes and there's no other way for Daisy to extricate herself from her RVS vote without her feeling like she looks suspicious.

[KatyKimFanClub]

The evolution of Daisy's reads on Elements Day 2 makes no sense.

I will say El is now reading a bit different to me after revealing that the intent to hammer post had an agenda. As I've said before my read on Elements is based on whether their posts have a deep running agenda (scummy) or are mostly surface level and a bit trolly (townie). Revealing that the intent to hammer post had strong thought behind it surprises me a bit, tho I've been wrong here plenty of times before.

Daisy presumably scumreads Elements here.

Elements could've been scum looking for a quick hammer but I think that's fairly unlikely considering the explanations we've received.

There's literally no Elements additional explanation of the intent to hammer post between these two posts. Elements talks about why they did it earlier, but Daisy scumreads Elements after they explain their reasoning, that was the whole logic behind the scumread in the first place.


Then Kitty has Elements in the second tier of reads with Sky/Delta in 526.

[KatyKimFanClub]

The logic that Daisy keeps going back to is that a scum!Elements has no reason to make an intent to hammer post on a town!KKFC. This is repeated often, and I think that this logic, coupled with Daisy's persistent pushes on me in Day 1 and Day 2, were meant to try to make her partner look town once I flipped.

[KatyKimFanClub]

There's this idea that Elements is scummy, yet if I'm town then Elements can't be scum, but since I'm more scummy than Elements, I should be flipped first, that is entirely too convenient for this game.

Sky and Kitty surely you see this.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I don't think it's a blatant misrep. PP literally unvoted you because of Elements' post. The Elements post is where the wagon goes from progressing to regresssing.

The wagon literally cannot progress from E-1 what do you mean? He unvotes because he doesn't want an errant hammer, it's not like he doesn't scumread me anymore. You can see this from the fact that he continues to interrogate me for like another 2 pages.

[KatyKimFanClub]

No that's what makes you such a likely team. One of the most basic mafia distancing strategies that exists in the game is the act of just ignoring each other and pushing elsewhere, and this is a strategy that I 100% expected to see this game because the mafia team is small and so bussing is so much more harmful. From what I remember reading your posts, there hasn't been a satisfying progression on your read of Elements at all. You had El top of your readlist end of Day 2, yet I can't remember a reason why.

Well then you should read my ISO again!

[KatyKimFanClub]

Again, as I mentioned at the time, early-game meta reads on Page 4/5 are the bread and butter of a town!Daisy game, and I offered an example of a game where I did this exact kind of play as town. It's a better vote than a pure RVS vote, which is what my Elements vote was, because there is at least some solid information backing up the vote and it typically generates some strong discussion (which it did!!). I also think your point about Elements being at 3 votes is bogus because Elements was literally voting themselves at the time, so I don't understand why I as a scumparter to Elements would be in a rush to alleviate the pressure there if Elements wanted a wagon on themselves?

It's still three votes. The proximity of the updated vote count and the push on me is significant.

[KatyKimFanClub]

What you're seeing here is the first post noting that if the binary agenda read I have is right, we've got a scum!Elements here. And then the second post adds a bit of nuance. I'm trying to figure out there why a scum!Elements makes that post in a town!KKFC world, and this is a question I haven't been able to find a satisfying answer to the whole game. Hunting for a hammer *that* early in Day 1 just isn't a good play as scum and that's what I was working out in that post. I don't understand how I can be clearer with my read on Elements, it feels like I've had to make these same points over and over and over again like I'm in some twisted groundhog day mafia game lmao.

Elements was clearly not actually hunting for a hammer, as we both know from Day 1. This was the basis of your "agenda" read on Elements, since it was clear Elements was making the post for a reaction-hunting reason.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I don't think it's a blatant misrep. PP literally unvoted you because of Elements' post. The Elements post is where the wagon goes from progressing to regresssing.

The wagon literally cannot progress from E-1 what do you mean? He unvotes because he doesn't want an errant hammer, it's not like he doesn't scumread me anymore. You can see this from the fact that he continues to interrogate me for like another 2 pages.

And who do you think caused that unvote out of a fear of an errant hammer?

Daisy, I was clearly still on the hot seat. PP said he's unvoting because he doesn't want me to get hammered right there. No one is hammering me on Page 8 of the game either way. That post did not make him stop suspecting me.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Then give me the reason!!! If you're so sure I've been setting you up with my logic on Elements, can you tell me why Elements makes that intent to hammer post as scum if you're town? I have been asking this question for the vast majority of this game and not a single player has been able to give a satisfying answer bar what I have with you and Elements both being scum together.

I don't have to answer for Element's reasoning. I wouldn't make that play and I don't know why Elements did. Maybe for towncred? It's easy to say like "oh I thought KKFC was scummy but I didn't want to hammer and end day too early". Also makes it easy to come back and wagon me later.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Here's the smoking gun.

Why haven't you presented ANY other possible partners for Elements this entire game? You said it's not RN, you said it was possibly Skygazer yesterday but only if I was the partner. Elements has consistently been in your second tier of reads, but why have you only thought it possible for Elements to be partners with me?

You've had interactions with Elements yes, but a ton of them are fluff. The only time you push Elements ever is for the weird intent to hammer post on me and you drop it in every context except for the "scum!Elements doesn't do this to town!KKFC" narrative.

You thought the post was scummy, yet you never pursued Elements seriously the entire game.

Similarly, you still haven't interacted with Elements today, OR RE-EVALUATED YOUR READS ON ELEMENTS AT ALL, despite the fact that Elements should be confirmed to you at this point.

The entire introspective, evolving-reads style of your Daisy-play that has been directed towards me this game has never appeared when you're interacting with Elements. Sure, you've interacted with things like asking questions or asking PP for their read on Elements, but you've never played hardball with them when it mattered. Literally just one time you scumread them for the hammer-agenda thing, then you said it was resolved despite Elements not responding to the post.

[KatyKimFanClub]

The crux of my RN townread comes down to the question: Who is RN paired with?

Kitty is an option but PP's got experience reading the slot and they like Kitty this game
I'm an option for well, disrupting the entire wagon and putting us in this spot. But I get to discount that world :3

But who else? Like who's throwing themselves into a Day 2 bus this hard? It's in Elements' scumrange but my logic on the slot goes against this world (but they've hopped wagons onto me now..). KKFC hadn't actually voted and was buying time for RN to come back, but he would've had to work hard in order to justify not voting there since he vocally did not like the slot (and is now voting there when I'm an option). Sky has RN rock bottom of their reads and hasn't rly given RN a single out. And PP's super town this game in my eyes.

Writing this out makes El and KKFC look like they potentially could be partners, but both possibilities feel tenuous. Tho the worry I'm wrong on the Elements read is creeping up on me, they 100% would use a bad read I had on them as an excuse to push me as scum.

@Skygazer and @Kitty this is the only time Daisy ever considers that Elements could be scum, yet it happens after the vote on RN has basically been confirmed to happen because of the deadline.

It would make sense that they would start to distance more after it's confirmed the game is going into ELO.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Idk man, just reread Daisy's iso and ask yourself if you think she's ever given me a fair shot this game. And then ask yourself if she let Elements off too easy for the intent to hammer post, the only thing Elements has done this game that's really pinged Daisy.
If you believe she hasn't for either, which I think should be fairly apparent, then it's straightforward that the entire "let's vote KKFC" and "no scum!Elements if town!KKFC" posts are linked.

[KatyKimFanClub]

You know exactly why I think Elements can only be partnered with you. I don't think I can be clearer. I know Elements very very well as a mafia player we've been playing together for years. I do not know why Elements makes that intent to hammer post if they're scum and you're town.

Then why haven't you pushed Elements since post 299?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Unless there's some world where Skygazer sits on their scumpartner the entirety of Day 1 or I'm completely off-base with the read I have on Elements (scum with kkfc, don't think they work with anyone else), I am right.

So let me get this straight. You've known the scumteam has been me and Elements for a while then. Since your information on Skygazer is coming from a Day 1 voting pattern.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I've also been pushing you and Elements as scum this entire day phase.

Yes... because it's confirmed to you. Why haven't you ever pushed Elements before then? My whole point is that should have thought Elements was scum considering the strength of your read on me.

Your Day 2 is entirely too passive for what you would be confident would be a miselim, and the whole "oh no I have no time and my vote is forced" is theatrical.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Answer my question please. Why did your read on Elements suddenly turn in 299, and why did you make no serious efforts to sort the slot afterwards?

[KatyKimFanClub]

You sure asked me a lot of questions, and you were more confident in my being scum.

If Elements only had one possible partner ever... why not try to find out more earlier in the game? Was your hypothetical town plan waiting until the game got to ELO to confront Elements?

[KatyKimFanClub]

cause right now i'm sat on:
skygazer who i townread super hard i rly liked their day 1
pp who i definitely like this game
elements who could be paired with kkfc but otherwise i don't see scum motivation in their "intent to hammer" post
kkfc who's growing on me as he gets to play without pressure. i maintain that his twilight readlist was super good to see and it gave my read a big boost here

Explain this post then?

[KatyKimFanClub]

If you townread Skygazer and PP at the start of Day 2, why did you never push Elements Day 2?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Your reasoning for me and Elements today is that Elements cannot be scum if I was town. Yet this entire game you've operated as though I wasn't town. So, once again, why did you never question Elements on anything?

You have a player in your pool who can only be partners with someone who to you has been scummy since Page 4.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I said split the difference because everyone left in this game scumreads you

You would be the easy vote

[KatyKimFanClub]

Well, Daisy and I who were talking at the time both scumread you?

[KatyKimFanClub]

I’m on mobile so I can’t remember what was happening at the time. Was I not making a case for Daisy/you against Daisy’s case of Me/you?

Splitting the difference between these cases is just you

[KatyKimFanClub]

I’m not really sure what the point of this questioning is

[KatyKimFanClub]

I’m actually not sure what your endgame is here. After Daisy flips scum your case on me gets way worse.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I’ll put that case forward in an hour or so when I get home

Right off the bat do you think busses this hard are generally uncommon. By the balance of probabilities it’s way more likely that Daisy is scum pushing a bad case on me rather than scum bussing me

[KatyKimFanClub]

Oh what the hell.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Right off the bat do you think busses this hard are generally uncommon. By the balance of probabilities it’s way more likely that Daisy is scum pushing a bad case on me rather than scum bussing me

Probablity is a terrible argument. And Daisy has to push you as scum in this final 5 because 1 is cop confirmed and 1 basically everyone townreads due to the claim. So the three of us are locked into scumreading the other 2.

I’m pointing out she’s basically tunneled me this entire game. Why is probability a bad argument?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Look there’s two cases:

Daisy pushed on me and ignored Elements intent to hammer post after post 299

Either she did this to bus me

Or she did this to try to miselim me

Consider the fact she said she doesn’t see a scum elements if I’m town, and that was one of the reasons she wanted to eliminate me, and think which of these two possibilities is more likely

[KatyKimFanClub]

I’m not saying that there’s a 2/3 chance Daisy wakes up and decides not to bus me. Or that in 80 percent of 9p scum don’t bus or something.

I’m saying if you look at the evidence in this game in a vacuum, you would have to suspend your disbelief much more to think that the way Daisy played implicated me more than you

[KatyKimFanClub]

Because I know I'm town

Very convincing

[KatyKimFanClub]

If the plan is that Daisy is going to bus me the entire game, then why the fuck am I townreading you and why is Daisy saying “TOWN KKFC CLEARS ELEMENTS” and not “SCUM KKFC IMPLICATES ELEMENTS”

[KatyKimFanClub]

What’s the endgame? If Daisy and I are a team one of us has to scumread you Day 2.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Daisy explicitly refused to put any pressure on you during that time

[KatyKimFanClub]

Ok I actually need to drive home so if the day ends during that time then whatever.

RH I want a fast night.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Duck it we post while dry find

I’d Daisy and I are scum then that means elements was town with his intent to hammer post and Daisy wasn’t the one to invite it was PP. so that makes no sense imo

Daisy never gives any real logic for why town KKFC means town Elements. We know she is scum now, if I’m her partner why not say that if KKFC is scum then elements is partner defusing wagon with fake intent to hammer post?

[KatyKimFanClub]

She can say whatever since she’s scum and making up reads so why construct it so that elements looks town after I flip town?

[KatyKimFanClub]

Home now.
Look at the three way associations here:

Daisy says that if I flip town then Elements is town. Because a scum Elements does not intent to hammer post me. At this point, we know that Daisy is scum. We also know that she didn't give any actual reasoning for why a town!KKFC implies a town!Elements. She just says that she doesn't think scum!Elements does this.

So, either:

1) She knows I'm going to flip town. If this is true, then she makes her partner look better by giving a pre-existing reasoning both for my vote and for Elements being town.

2) She knows I'm going to flip scum. If this is true, then she knows that she's going into an endgame with Elements alive with no actual case and no evidence against him. This raises the question of why she wouldn't instead a) push Elements first (she already said she found his behavior from Day 1 scummy) or b) push me, but instead say that if I flip scum then Elements has to be scum using an intent to hammer post to slow down the wagon. She doesn't use this argument until Day 3, when we are both "confirmed" to her.

Another way of thinking about it:

Daisy has said that Element's only possible partner is me. Once I flip town, this gives her an easy way to townread Elements.

Now, let's think about if Elements is town (he isn't but let's imagine it).

This means Elements, as town, made an intent to hammer post on scum (me) who was being pushed by his partner (Daisy), and neither partner pushed him for the rest of the game about it. In fact, the person being wagoned (me) would townread him for that, and the person bussing wouldn't make any hint or reference that Elements is actually the one bussing until ELO on Day 3.

[KatyKimFanClub]

[KatyKimFanClub]

It's ok! You played well