Open 884: Another Newbie Game | Game Over!

[Dannflor]

VOTE: gamma

Oopsie minorly towny for a not very self-conscious entrance

[Dannflor]

VOTE: KittyTacky

I think KittyTacky not really responding to OopsieDaisy calling him out as someone she knows (except to OMGUS) is scum indicative.

[Dannflor]

it makes sense
i mostly try to read what other people write, don't really know how to continue beyond

On another topic, how to quote things?/g

Hi Purplemango, do you have any thoughts on what anyone's alignment might be based on what they've posted so far?

[Dannflor]

ok scum team almost solved just need purplemango to come in and townspew himself or not

[Dannflor]

Like would I just say "huh I guess we played before"? Dann, honest question, what would you expect such a response to look like?

nothing, i made up a reason to scum read you

sorry

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[Dannflor]

For the time being I feel fine keeping my vote on Daisy. Her case against me feels sort of made up. I mean her own version of the event chain was that Infinity voices an actual reason to vote her, and I jump on it. While I agree, that a scum would certainly welcome this sort of an easy chance to slip in an additional vote, what should a townie do if they agree with Infinity's thoughts (the thoughts that Daisy seemed to agree made sense)? Not vote her and rather keep the random vote? This doesn't really add up to me.

Cook's town read on KittyTacky feels off to me, unless it's somehow based on their previous games. I don't see anything at all that Kitty's done that would warrant a town read specifically, even if it's a light one.

how would you expect Daisy to distinguish between you hopping onto her wagon as scum versus as town?

like you self admit that the circumstances would be welcome for scum, why is Daisy supposed to give you the benefit of the doubt here?

[Dannflor]

nothing in particular from kitty

i was looking for reactions (or non-reactions) from the rest of the game

i think OopsieDaisy town reading me but disagreeing with the kitty read in some detail has a level of nuance that's vaguely towny

and i kind of have a theory that the fact that pretty much everyone else just ignored my post about kitty points towards kitty being town

[Dannflor]

mmm I kinda forgot what I was thinking

something about how I lead with pretty weak reasoning and I thought scum would be very hesitant to sheep that but also wouldn't want to challenge it either because a townie scum reading another townie confidently is always good yeah?

[Dannflor]

I do seriously scum read Gamma Emerald because it doesn't seem like he actually cares about sorting purplemango's alignment, he parked a vote there and even though purplemango has posted since there's not really any further attempt to engage with him. it feels like gamma parked a vote there because it seemed like a target no one would question a vote on.

i think 65 is weirdly shallow for Gamma and I think it's rather common habit for scum to throw out a weak town read on big early wagons on town

69 is a post I myself make as scum a lot where I point out objective inconsistencies even though they don't really have a bearing on alignment. It just looks good and is easy to do.

I'll admit most of this stuff is on the weaker side but so far gamma has given me the biggest impression of trying to look town without actually being towny

[Dannflor]

I do seriously scum read Gamma Emerald because it doesn't seem like she actually cares about sorting purplemango's alignment, she parked a vote there and even though purplemango has posted since there's not really any further attempt to engage with him. it feels like gamma parked a vote there because it seemed like a target no one would question a vote on.

i think 65 is weirdly shallow for Gamma and I think it's rather common habit for scum to throw out a weak town read on big early wagons on town

69 is a post I myself make as scum a lot where I point out objective inconsistencies even though they don't really have a bearing on alignment. It just looks good and is easy to do.

I'll admit most of this stuff is on the weaker side but so far gamma has given me the biggest impression of trying to look town without actually being towny

edit, pronouns, sorry gamma

[Dannflor]

I think you're reading a bit much into 65/69
Of course my reads are gonna be shallow, there's very little to go on, and even when there is I tend to have a handful of reads that are shallow still
and I wasn't just pointing out an inconsistency, I was asking about it. There's a difference.

maybe!

ig also im a little surprised you didn't try to engage more with oopsie or the people scum reading her if you were finding yourself town reading her

[Dannflor]

i could vote cook

[Dannflor]

Why are you townreading Mr. K, Kitty?

[Dannflor]

why does that make you unvote

[Dannflor]

VOTE: cook

[Dannflor]

you have no scum reads gamma?

[Dannflor]

what are your mild concerns

it doesn't really look like you're poking at anything right now

[Dannflor]

getting content out of this game is like squeezing a rock and u seem kinda fine with that gamestate

why

[Dannflor]

Im not voting you Gamma

[Dannflor]

I just never put my vote *back* onto you so im confused

[Dannflor]

I think i like your thoughts tho!

[Dannflor]

I guess I’m confused how you predicted I’d put my vote back on you there when I didn’t ask you any questions between votes or interact with you at all

[Dannflor]

Yeah I’m okay with gamma towny for right now

[Dannflor]

I'm saying I think Gamma is vaguely towny and I'm okay with just going with that read for right now

[Dannflor]

@mod

you are showing me as having two votes

Fixed

Fixed the previous VC as well.

[Dannflor]

do you have an alternative

[Dannflor]

I think promises to catch up with no follow through are like marginally more likely to cone from scum

I don’t love the naked unvote

Idk I’m not scum reading any of the active posters so this seems better

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Mr. K

[Dannflor]

I’ve decided 179 feels like a scum post

[Dannflor]

I mildly like Cook’s catch up

I don’t follow why me and Gamma couldn’t be S/T though

[Dannflor]

I think Gamma was saying he thought I had a planned trajectory to start scum reading him

and tbh I develop that conspiracy theory sort of read as town a lot so I’m kinda townreading Gamma for that

[Dannflor]

Oh he explained

Anyway the Mr. K post I thought was scummy because it like telegraphed what he was going to do

“Going to see what Cook does and then think and make a decision”

It feels a little LAMIST and I see that type of posting from scum more often that are trying to make their thought processes seem real

And i don’t really know that that signposting is necessary or would seem useful to town that wants to put pressure on Cook to do something

[Dannflor]

I’ll be around by deadline so I can move back to Cook if need be

I don’t think Cook’s catchup is like particularly towny or anything and if that’s looking like the default elim Cook should probably just claim

[Dannflor]

Dunnstral not really knowing what to do here and admitting it might be towny?

[Dannflor]

VOTE: cook

[Dannflor]

i don't love the explanation on kitty's hammer

[Dannflor]

I don't think scum claims anything except VT here. I do think Cook is... the least bad choice. The game is quiet so scum can easily blend in by either lurking or being moderately active-- both strats work well at this size so I really don't know. But...

like this over explanation feels guilt ridden

[Dannflor]

Mr. K can be town

[Dannflor]

don't think town feels any guilt about hammering a slot at deadline

[Dannflor]

I think I like Gamma for town still

For some reason I want to town lean Dunnstral but I don't really have any good reason for that

[Dannflor]

it's kinda makes sense for me to kill daisy as scum, I don't think a lot of people thought she was scum, and she talked a lot, in a way that keeps the game functioning and makes it harder to just hide by not talking or something

kinda wanna town read this tbh

[Dannflor]

VOTE: infinity

[Dannflor]

I'm just used to getting a little more enthusiasm from infinity

like there's not really any drive or fire to solve the game

which like yeah you could point towards the kinda dead game as a demotivating factor

but I'm not getting the same vibes from Mr. K or Gamma

[Dannflor]

don't think town feels any guilt about hammering a slot at deadline

I think it would be the inverse? I can attest the being flipped at deadline essentially just for knowledge sucks so being the one to hammer would probably feel bad as town.

I think I just want to know why Kitty felt the need to justify their hammer on Cook

I also don't really get or agree with the idea that scum would've claimed VT there

[Dannflor]

is that in general or specific to this game

[Dannflor]

well i don’t really know what to do with you if you’re town, infinity

[Dannflor]

I guess I find it unlikely given the deadline constraints

[Dannflor]

like I don't disagree with that take generally, but if you actually think about scum in that position, I don't think they can expect a sudden wagon shift with 12 hours or whatever was left on the clock based on WIFOM

[Dannflor]

kitty can you give me some hot takes on every slot

[Dannflor]

kinda think it's just kitty/infinity tbh

do you have reasons to suspect Gamma independently, Mr. K?

[Dannflor]

dann why is kitty scum besides the overjustification, do you think the "scum would claim vt" thing is scummy from kitty?

vibes

i think that specifically is probably nai

[Dannflor]

and i noticed kitty has interacted with or voiced an opinion on every single slot except for you

[Dannflor]

and tbh i just have at least minor reasons to town read almost everyone else and none really for kitty

[Dannflor]

yeah i feel Mr. K is the most obvious town here

I guess I could be wrong on Gamma I'm not historically great at reading it

I just liked the reachy / conspiratorial read on me yesterday

[Dannflor]

dunnstral idk really how to read either but I've generally liked his questions and he feels like he's trying to figure the game out

probably my weakest read but yeah

[Dannflor]

it would be really helpful if purple mango came in and just gave a couple thoughts on each player

[Dannflor]

maybe dann being a deepwolf is more likely haha but if so he deserves to win he out efforted all of us

im kinda suspicious ur not considering this possibility more

I don’t think i’ve been like exceptionally towny

[Dannflor]

can you expand on what about gamma's behavior seems scummy?

and also what about infinity looks town to you?

[Dannflor]

yeah

[Dannflor]

idk infinity has no scum reads and that doesn't feel right to me so im fine just eliminating her

[Dannflor]

idk infinity has no scum reads and that doesn't feel right to me so im fine just eliminating them

ebwop

[Dannflor]

what do you think of infinity, kitty?

[Dannflor]

uh oh infinity are you actually town here

[Dannflor]

why are you sheeping the "deepwolf leading town"

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE:

[Dannflor]

Mr. K = not sure on my earlier TR anymore but I don't think I'm voting here today

can you expand what is making you doubt your town read

[Dannflor]

VOTE: kittytacky

[Dannflor]

im paranoid it is exactly mr. k / kittytacky

[Dannflor]

their reads on each other are weird

[Dannflor]

and kitty tacky going on you despite shading me in that way gives me the heebie jeebies

[Dannflor]

purplemango seems pretty town now

[Dannflor]

My main issue with Kitty is the slightly odd comment on the hammer and him being somewhat inactive on D1. Does that make him town? Not necessarily, but it does make an even weaker case than my suspicions towards Gamma and Infinity.

Pretty much everyone agreed that Kitty would be town, for example, so killing Kitty would have made more sense... unless he's actually scum.... unless they deliberately chose to keep Kitty alive to make us think he's scum, especially him being the one hammering the kill

i dunno i can't put my finger on it but there's a lot more words about kitty tacky than, say, dunnstral, who is also a null read

[Dannflor]

i just think purplemango wanting to clear you because you pushed oopsie D1 is a townie thought process

[Dannflor]

why

[Dannflor]

is kitty like super town to you

[Dannflor]

in a word, why

[Dannflor]

okay

sorry but that's not persuasive to me

[Dannflor]

okey dokey sorry kitty

VOTE: infinity

[Dannflor]

infinity paying lip service to the idea of reconsidering my slot but instead pushing purplemango feels ????

[Dannflor]

I don’t vibe with Dunn’s push on Gamma

I think it’s reasonable to see people pushing someone you know is a conftown and often LHF and conclude that scum is likely to be pushing there even if you have no other evidence

[Dannflor]

do you have a solve

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE:

dunn where are your reads at

[Dannflor]

Mr. k why didn’t you comment on me theorizing about you and Kitty being a team

Did that not bother you at all

[Dannflor]

VOTE: purplemango

[Dannflor]

purplemango is town reading infinity and scum reading gamma emerald, but has never voted gamma despite infinity picking up pressure and mostly seems to engage with Gamma like he thinks she is town

I think if I look at purplemango really objectively there isn't any reason to town read the slot beyond the WIFOM "oh this slot wouldn't point this out as scum because it's so obvious," and that's like... the only thing purplemango has done this game

[Dannflor]

Mr. K also expressed a scum read on Gamma today, so that would've been at least two votes

It is worrying to me that you don't seem that bothered by Infinity being voted, given that you have a town read on them

[Dannflor]

mostly you're just avoiding taking any real stances

even now that I'm pointing out that stances that you *have* taken, you're backpedaling on them

to me it seems like you're afraid to take a real stance

[Dannflor]

I just feel like something is wrong

there is a pit in my stomach whenever i look at this game

[Dannflor]

i don't really think gamma/infinity makes sense as a solve (your solve)

[Dannflor]

no

[Dannflor]

I have thought Gamma is town for a long time and I think I've made that clear?

[Dannflor]

I'm having strong doubts that infinity is scum

[Dannflor]

mehhhhh

idk maybe im overthinking myself into oblivion

who is infinity's partner?

[Dannflor]

Mr K why did you stop thinking Infinity was town

I don't really see what made you changed your mind there in your ISO

[Dannflor]

maybe infinity/purplemango explains some things actually

[Dannflor]

i think that is the simplest answer actually

[Dannflor]

intent to hammer

[Dannflor]

Okay, barring a CC I'd like to kill PurpleMango today

I think he's scummy but I also think it's strictly -EV to have a slot in endgame that refuses to vote or take any defensible stances

[Dannflor]

okey i think im fine killing infinity then

[Dannflor]

did either of you crumb

[Dannflor]

i guess the only scenario mr. k is scum is if it's like exactly mr. k / purplemango and mr. k is worried about being in auto-loss if purplemango dies today

[Dannflor]

i guess there is also the benefit of going into elimlo without a conf town if we eliminate the wrong claim today

[Dannflor]

meh I think infinity is just scummier than mr. k

[Dannflor]

yeah i tend to agree

like one of the reasons i ultimately decided to go infinity is that i thought her play did not look like a PR

[Dannflor]

[Dannflor]

VOTE: infinity e-1

[Dannflor]

I think it's probably purple

[Dannflor]

VOTE: purplemango

[Dannflor]

I think infinity is smart enough to see the writing on the wall after kitty claimed FN and start distancing with you

[Dannflor]

who do you think is scum, purple

[Dannflor]

yeah

fmpov there's nothing that like clears dunn/infinity but i think dunn has approached the game in a generally towny way and has been trying to find scum

and purple doesn't really clear that bar

[Dannflor]

Purple, why do you think it is me over Dunn?

[Dannflor]

Kitty plase don’t auto vote me

[Dannflor]

VOTE: dunnstral

[Dannflor]

There is no universe where I kill Gamma emerald, the slot I’ve been town reading and interacted a lot more with this game, over the hard conf town who said “GG Dunn” at the end of yesterday

Seriously

The WIFOM is not strong enough

[Dannflor]

I am town and I am findable as town here

[Dannflor]

Like, just look at the way I’ve interacted with infinity throughout the game

I don’t show so much doubt deciding between the two claims as scum

Look at who infinity interacts with, I’m pretty sure dunn and Infinity interact like exactly once and it is when dunn votes infinity

[Dannflor]

I know dunn’s Iso looks good on a surface level but there’s a lot of stuff on mine that would be hard for me to fake

And if you really look at dunnstral you can see he’s played this game more to look town than solve the game

Look at D1 where he just says he’s uncomfortable with Cook being run up and then says he doesn’t know where else to vote, he was just afraid of getting his hands dirty and didn’t want to push elsewhere

Look at his push on Gamma and how easily he backs off of it, I think around the time I start pushing infinity harder?

[Dannflor]

You’ve been on my scum team before and you know I specifically chose the most straightforwardly easy endgame for myself as scum, I didn’t go for the WIFOM play

[Dannflor]

I don’t know I can keep pointing at stuff he did you should look at and stuff I did you should look at but idk how actually helpful it is

I really think if you consider though who has been playing politically and who has actually been trying to figure out the game, you can find me as town

[Dannflor]

there's nothing really stopping dunn from being scum but he's pretty solidly in the "solving without trying to look like he's solving" category

pedit mmhm

i think this is a pretty common type of read to have on a buddy

I think infinity’s interactions with me D1 and then constantly saying she should reevaluate me but actually not just feel like she *needed* to town read me in order to get me off her back

[Dannflor]

maybe dann being a deepwolf is more likely haha but if so he deserves to win he out efforted all of us

I think this would be a very strange and unintuitive thing to say about a scum buddy

[Dannflor]

Just look at who directly benefits more from bringing you into F3 over Gamma. I promise the WIFOM is not enough compensation for that

[Dannflor]

My associatives would a buddy would not be that sloppy

There isn’t any reason I wouldn’t be okay with putting infinity to e-2 and not e-1

Kitty knows I have no problem bussing

Also Kitty *literally* said GG Dunn so idk why I would have an easier time convincing Kitty over Gamma

[Dannflor]

im happy for u

or sorry that happened

[Dannflor]

let me know if i need to respond further kitty

i just think if you read my iso you can conclude im not informed about people’s alignments

[Dannflor]

autocorrect favors the letter A i hope

[Dannflor]

I don’t know why but being the unconfirmed townie in an F3 feels way less fun than being scum in an F3

[Dannflor]

I guess one thing I will say is that I’ve made the wrong choice as town in F3 a lot

Like way more than I have made the right choice

And my hunch is that town probably lose F3s way more than they win them (i have no statistical evidence to back this up) because usually when a game lasts that long scum have a ton of time to plan the optimal F3 for them. It doesn’t always work out exactly like that but usually scum take at least one person into end game that they know will be favorable for them

In PYP i took kitten around because I knew I could get her to town read me

I didn’t worry that it might be seen as the “easy end game” for me a scum, because it was way better to just take the easy end game

Dunnstral killing Gamma here feels the same. Yes, it feels like it might be *too obvious* to kill the not quite confirmed townie over the confirmed townie, but KittyTacky was undeniably leaning towards voting me over Dunnstral at the end of yesterday. The argument for me killing Gamma is way weaker than the argument for Dunnstral. It is simply Dunnstral’s easiest end game.

I realize you can reduce that to WIFOM. But if you look at what scum are just empirically more likely to do, it’s take the easier end game for themselves. It’s what I would do. And i think it’s very clear who this end game was designed for

[Dannflor]

but regardless, this end game was also designed to be good for dunnstral so i won’t be mad if you get it wrong here kitty, I should’ve scrutinized him harder earlier in the game too

[Dannflor]

gamma at the very least town read me at one point in this game and i have a much more established repertoire with her in this game

Gamma also didn’t make it clear where they stood on me recently

Kitty made it very clear

[Dannflor]

Dannflor has no easy end game here.

I mean, this is also part of what I’m saying

Who looks like they played more to look good in end game

[Dannflor]

infinity paying lip service to the idea of reconsidering my slot but instead pushing purplemango feels ????

I don’t vibe with Dunn’s push on Gamma

I think it’s reasonable to see people pushing someone you know is a conftown and often LHF and conclude that scum is likely to be pushing there even if you have no other evidence

dunn/purple maybe

It's not clear how you got here. Also Dann is right, you did say you were going to reconsider Dann in 381, and then again in 403, but then say you don't think they are mafia. And this seems to be without actually doing any reconsideration.

Going back to 259, I think your vote and reasoning here are suspicious.

VOTE: Infinity 324

[Dannflor]

btw this is the sequence of events

Infinity is at e-2 and dunn’s pushes on other slots like Gamma are going nowhere so he collapses on his buddy who is looking likely to be the elim

[Dannflor]

I then unvote and post this

I'm having strong doubts that infinity is scum

If my goal is to save my scum buddy

Why do i never post any reasons or a case

The reason was because i was a genuinely lost townie

My agenda was not to save infinity, i express doubt at a time that makes me look awful if infinity flips scum

[Dannflor]

Like i know it looks bad on a surface level but what am i actually doing here if scum

It’s definitely not trying to save infinity

It’s definitely not bus infinity for town cred

I’m just waffling for no reason and uh you could say i did if for the WIFOM but literally anything else I could’ve done would’ve given me more benefit as scum

[Dannflor]

[Dannflor]

GG! well played all

Thanks for modding heipi!

[Dannflor]

that was a tough choice kitty

I do not envy your position