Open 347: White Flag Mafia (Game Over)

[fatlikepig]

VOTE: kondi2424

Kondi wagon is best wagon.

[fatlikepig]

Ohohohoho

You so funny

[fatlikepig]

I'm here. Just busy.

@SK: I was talking about where Quil wanted a quicklynch on kondi.

Getting bad vibes from SH's posts. Also, why single me out when Quil hadn't posted for an equally long time?
VOTE: SH

[fatlikepig]

@SK: What? He said that after I voted.

@SH: How do either of Quil's first two posts contain enough content to make that distinction?

Also, policy lynching Kondi is probably a bad idea since we're at mylo tomorrow if he's town.

[fatlikepig]

EBWOP: Never mind that bit about policy lynching, misread Quil's post.

Also, that meta seems really weak.

Edit: ewww ninja'd

[fatlikepig]

fuck brainfart

Because I wanted to see how he would react to a wagon being formed on him, since he seems to enjoy lurking a bit. Also, I didn't think that the wagon would result in a lynch.

[fatlikepig]

So why didn't you unvote when he reached L-1?

Maybe because I wasn't around when he reached L-1?

Just FTR though, I'm apparently not as scared about L-1 as I should be. Maybe I just have too much faith in everyone.

More so then yours.

You dodged my question.

[fatlikepig]

@SH:

Noones really made some claims on SK either

What do you mean by this?

[fatlikepig]

Mod, my vote is on ScreamingHawk, not SK

[fatlikepig]

Actually, never mind.
VOTE: Cross_Pollination

Minimal contribution, early posts reek of scum.

[fatlikepig]

oooooooh boy

[fatlikepig]

FB, why so defensive of Cross_Pollination? Also loving the casual push of the wagon on me without actually committing to it.

Analysis tonight when I get time.

[fatlikepig]

Why do you think he's town?

EBWOP: I'm on a phone. Hold your horses.

[fatlikepig]

ISO posts 0-2 are scummy. Being wary of voting and saying and you don't have reads on anyone is dodgy.

He also apparently has experience on another forum. Means he's not a "newbie" per se, so I'm not incline to take that as an excuse.

[fatlikepig]

Why do you think scum are more likely to be wary of voting?

Number of reasons, actually.
1) All of scum's reads are going to be false (unless they're bussing, but that's a different story). It is therefore hard for them to "put their money where their mouth is" per se by voting for their reads, because they're wary that their cases are shoddy. I think that's especially true with newbscum.
2) Putting a vote on someone increases town's focus on scum, meaning that scum have to try and defend these shoddy reads
3) Scum don't like committing to reads because they want to be flexible in case easier lynches come up

Unless the vote is going to lead to a quickhammer or something, town shouldn't be wary of voting.

I actually don't think that's true, in general. it's also not very often scum out and admit they've no reads, it's certainly something I'd never do as scum - precisely because people find it scummy, when it's actually more likely to come from town (imo)

WIFOM. Also, there's a tension in your defense of C_P here if you're going to say that he doesn't know the meta but he knows what's "expected scum behaviour".

I'm seeing the newbtown argument, though.

Eh, where did he say he had offsite experience?

My previous mafia experience is just games on another forum I visit.

Actually, Pig. Have you been posting from your phone often in this game so far?

Yeah, more than I'd like to. Wouldn't have much time to contribute otherwise, though. Why does that matter?

Also, just noticed a couple of things.

Nobody Special seems like a troll of some sort. Other than that, I've got nothing on him. Oh well, it's better than nothing.

And I found his posts suspicious.

Troll =/= scum. I find the change in reasoning upon being questioned very strange. C_P, what about NS do you think is scummy?

But my scummiest read is fatlikepig. I don't like his few posts.

FTR, these posts are my RVS bandwagon and the "ohohoho Quil you funny" post.

What about these are scummy?

Did I? My bad. I had pig in mind for a vote for a while. Must never have gone through with it

This post. I don't like it.
Why didn't you say anything about someone you thought was scummy? What made you change your mind on voting?

Going to suspend judgment on Cross_Pollination until he posts some more. I think having more posts from him would be a useful gauge of how many of his earlier posts are as a result of being a "newbie". For now, though:

FoS: Cross_Pollination

VOTE: ScreamingHawk

Also, SK is probably town.

[fatlikepig]

And I hereby dub kondi the King of Bandwagons.

[fatlikepig]

Posting nothing of value = active lurking.

Basically, trying appear active as scum without actually doing anything.

[fatlikepig]

Finding trekker's earlier "I don't give a shit, I'll call people town/scum with no reasons" attitude quite jarring with his current inquisitive attitude towards being called scummy

[fatlikepig]

Stop dodging my questions, SH.

[fatlikepig]

I think you'll find that scum never intentionally dodge questions.

I think you'll find that I ask questions because I want answers, not to prove a point.

[fatlikepig]

And why is your vote still on me?

[fatlikepig]

Neither you nor I know his intent (or lack thereof) in not answering my questions. There's plenty of reasons why I think scum may be inclined to not answer questions, either because they can't, because their answers will be scummier than not answering, or because they think they can get away with ignoring minor questions. Til he answers them, I'm going to assume the worst.

And why don't you post which posts of mine you think of scummy instead of pretending that "choice of word" actually means anything in the context of my post?

[fatlikepig]

Quil, your case on me is bad and you should feel bad.

Minimal contribution is definitely a scumtell when what you have contributed is scummy. As for my case not being there, the scummy aspects of C_P's early posts should have been fairly obvious. I delivered on that anyway, and I don't see why you're dismissing that just because it came later (hey, do I get to dismiss the rest of your case too? I mean, you didn't post any of this when you voted for me, right?).

Not going to bother with the rest of it, since ISO/meta on me shows that the rest of the case is baloney.

Why is trekker town when he has been calling people scum all game with no reasons?
Why are you voting for me if you have SH as leaning scum and me as null-leaning-scum? Shouldn't your vote be on the person you find most scummy?

Did I? My bad. I had pig in mind for a vote for a while. Must never have gone through with it

The more I think about this, the more I think it's a scumslip. Town shouldn't be "planning" votes. Scum "plan" votes because they need to pin stuff on town. I'm pretty happy with my vote on SH now.

[fatlikepig]

You still haven't told me why Quil's first two posts had more content than my first two posts.

[fatlikepig]

Wait why is he town now

[fatlikepig]

Okay, beginning to see the newbtownish aspects of his post. As with C_P, I think future posts will help gauge the validity of that.

SH, why didn't you just say you'd overlooked Quil in the first place? It would have been a perfectly fine response.

Equinox's post on NS seems good, I'll have to look at the latter's meta first though. For now, I'll do this:

VOTE: DonJosh

Explain to me why my first two posts were scummy.

[fatlikepig]

And as soon as the pressure's gone, he goes back to not giving a crap.

I can't be the only one that finds that a little suspicious, right?

[fatlikepig]

monsieur trekker

[fatlikepig]

I noticed something to that extent earlier.

The trend's continued, though, it's not just a coincidence.

[fatlikepig]

FLP: was it Equinox's explanation of his 'honesty' that helped you see SH as town? (I thought 309 was very townish too)

It helped. I tend to read things too pessimistically.

Quil, stop lurking.

[fatlikepig]

How did Equi's one liner help?
Why call out Quil just now?

As I said, it gets me thinking in the "what if this is coming from newbtown" mindset.

Also, he hasn't posted anything of worth in what, three days?

[fatlikepig]

Oh, right.

Because I just realised how long it had been before he'd done something.

[fatlikepig]

Dammit SH, stop screwing up my read on you.

Why'd you vote for SK?

[fatlikepig]

I agree he could be but shouldn't we be picking one target?

Why?

Who do you think is the most scummy at the moment?

[fatlikepig]

Trekker, case on SK please?

[fatlikepig]

Trekker, case on SK please?

ill respond when your avatar isn't my little pony, fyi.

Stop trying to dodge my questions plzkthx

[fatlikepig]

kondi and sk are scum

I love your reasoning.

...when you haven't been giving any reasons for your votes, okay then.

[fatlikepig]

Trekker, case on SK please?

ill respond when your avatar isn't my little pony, fyi.

Stop trying to dodge my questions plzkthx

I'll answer it once you meet my demands.

Nahhhhh. I asked first, after all.

[fatlikepig]

Except trekker's inquisition is obvfake because I'd been calling him scum for a while before his question.

Hi. You're still dodging the question. Town shouldn't withhold information; tell me or I will start a wagon on you.

VOTE: trekker

[fatlikepig]

Kondi, DJ, CP, bvoigt

[fatlikepig]

Except trekker's inquisition is obvfake because I'd been calling him scum for a while before his question.

Hi. You're still dodging the question. Town shouldn't withhold information; tell me or I will start a wagon on you.

VOTE: trekker

Lynching me because you refuse to comply with my request is antitown and a bad premise. Do you actually want me to scumhunt you instead of policy lynching?

Your request is retarded, nice attempt at misrep there. And please, go ahead.

[fatlikepig]

To be clear, it's misrep because he says I'm being antitown by not abiding by his demands, whereas it's in fact antitown to use excuses that aren't even relevant to the game to withhold information.

[fatlikepig]

DJ, your next post better contain some good content. You're not breezing by D1 this easy.

@Equinox: FTR, I never refused to answer any questions he put to me. Also, his case on SK is probably dodgy, which is why he doesn't want to answer. Note too the double standard.

[fatlikepig]

Lawl, CP comes in, declares someone obvscum, doesn't vote.

Have you really not found anything else worth commenting on? Stop being so passive. Amrun (iirc) asked something to this extent earlier and you've ignored her.

VOTE: Cross_Pollination

Hey DJ, ETA on your analysis?

[fatlikepig]

Also, SH's post re trekker is good. Im getting more convinced that SH's earlier posts were just the result of a newbtown mistake.

[fatlikepig]

SK, which bits of his latest posts do you think are scummy?

[fatlikepig]

Arrow through my heart, SK.

Also, there's nothing that jumps out at me as being scummy, which is why I asked. It seems in keeping with his newbtownish status.

[fatlikepig]

He's modding a game, too. You'd think he'd be more active.

[fatlikepig]

DJ's catchup contributed little and was underwhelming considering his absence.

VOTE: DJ

What do you think of the NS wagon?

[fatlikepig]

Semi V-LA from 2nd November - 10th due to exams.

Quill, thoughts on Kondi? Is he playing to his town meta?

[fatlikepig]

VOTE: NS

Dodgy reasoning abounds.

SH not conftown by any means. dj probably still scum, CP probably too.

[fatlikepig]

EBWOP: dodgy reasoning on NS's behalf.

[fatlikepig]

lolno.jpg

[fatlikepig]

Alright, someone explain to me why that post was scummy?

[fatlikepig]

Reread his ISO.

His votes are for stupid reasons (on FB because of theory, on SH because apparently he only "thought" he was town, which equates to a scumslip apparently). Also contributes little for the town except in his own defence, which is weird.

Agree with bvoigt on this post, too:

IF all three scum are on my wagon, I would say they are: FruitBasket, Screaming Hawk, and Sleepy.

Sleepy is my least compelling read.

[fatlikepig]

SEEMS LEGIT.

The whole thing with SH's "townslip" is that newbscum are probably just as likely to make the same mistake.

[fatlikepig]

I've elaborated on this in earlier posts.

[fatlikepig]

To be fair, he /was/ V/LA

[fatlikepig]

Mod, can we do something about DJ please?

[fatlikepig]

Thanks for replacing, TS!

@Equinox:

DonJosh and SleepyKrew are good candidates for Nobody Special's partners, especially SleepyKrew.

Explain this?

[fatlikepig]

More to come later.

On a brief skim through, many of Pidgey's reads are very fence-sitty.

[fatlikepig]

What would you say your area of expertise is in mafia pig? VCA? NK analysis?

Area of expertise? I don't think I've played enough Mafia to come to that sort of conclusion, but I like to think I ask the right questions.

As for NS calling people "obvscum", that could easily be scum overcompensating for the fact that they haven't given any reads earlier. It's an easy mistake to make, or at least so I think.

But would scum really be this obviously bad?

Dat WIFOM. To answer your question though, yes, usually obvious scum is obviously scum.

Ignoring the possible "NS is being trolltown" WIFOM crap, and taking his posts at face value, how scummy do you think he is? More or less than Quil?

Also, expand upon your case on Quil. Can you cite a few posts that you feel are him "playing it safe"?

Thanks to you and [J] for replacing!

[fatlikepig]

^ this.

Amrun is scum, regardless of NS's flip.

Elaborate?

[fatlikepig]

lawl, clicked "Reply" before I realised I'd been ninja'd.

you lynched before DJ was replaced?
Something is fundamentally wrong here. >_>

This was what I was referring to.

[fatlikepig]

Since when does SK elaborate?

A man can dream.

so if you agree that NS shouldn't have been lynched yet why were you happy leaving him at L-1

Because no-one raised that they were going to hammer. Just because someone's at L-1 doesn't mean I perceive them to be /that/ close to being lynched, because I trust that the Town should be smart enough to know the right time to hammer.

[fatlikepig]

[quote=Pidgey]Also didnt liked TS making cases before theres even a flip.[/quote]

lolwut

[fatlikepig]

Fail formatting, yay!

[fatlikepig]

TS/Equi/FLP, if you had to choose one of Amrun/SH/SK to go next, who and why? If it was between Bvoigt/FB then who?

SH or SK. Now that NS's flipped town, and given how hard SH was tunneling on him, I'm starting to go back to thinking SH is newbscummish.

TS/Equi/FLP, if you had to choose one of Amrun/SH/SK to go next, who and why? If it was between Bvoigt/FB then who?

How is my hammer bad besides the utter spontaneity of it?

Grr I hate D1. I have like no deffo scum-reads, only feels.

Dislike these posts.

[fatlikepig]

EBWOP: First one was a misquote.

Dag on TS with the ninja making my one question look lonely/pathetic. ;_;

I meant this one.

[fatlikepig]

wut

[fatlikepig]

I have apparently been hammered.

I'm a VT.

orly

[fatlikepig]

You answered your own questions. Oh well, I'll oblige.

How is my hammer bad besides the utter spontaneity of it?

Obviously the main thing with J's hammer /was/ the spontaneity of it and the sudden flip in opinion. Trying to downplay that looks scummy.

Dag on TS with the ninja making my one question look lonely/pathetic. ;_;

Why does he care that his one question looks lonely? That's a concern that should only really apply to scum.

Grr I hate D1. I have like no deffo scum-reads, only feels.

He doesn't have any "real" scumreads. Not only is this scummy, but it also makes me wonder what his big catchup thing was for.

[fatlikepig]

That and he'd just spent the last ~30 pages believing he was scum it does look unusual for him to say he's a townie before he's even flipped for sure.

Are you serious

He's been lynched, for goodness sake. I don't see why he should lie.

[fatlikepig]

Rereading later today. NK suggests newbscum to me.
VOTE: ScreamingHawk

@TS: SH, Quil and DJ feel most scummy right now.

[fatlikepig]

VOTE: jerobbo

The people who are finding me scummy are scummy themselves. I'm confirmed town.

lawl, "DON'T TRY TO MAKE A CASE ON ME OR YOU'RE SCUM"

mmhmm. And why are you confirmed town, again?

[fatlikepig]

More annoying than scummy. It's immensely unhelpful to the town.

[fatlikepig]

Okay, [J] NK is still really weird no matter how I look at it. From what I can tell, his scumlist was bascially FB/bvoigt/Amrun by the end of the day, and he was going to look at Quil/DJ on top of that. Also had SH as a null-scum read, and was also going to reread him today.

Since there was no other reason to kill him, I'm guessing that some of the scum felt threatened by him and decided to off him on the chance that they would be exposed. I feel like that's a reaction that's more likely to come from newbscum though.

[fatlikepig]

Ewwww them townslips.

Unvote

[fatlikepig]

Nah. Just means I have to reconsider who I think is scum, is all - I was somewhat sure about SH up to that point.

Also, jerobbo's reads list looks like scum trying to be helpful. "EVERYONE IS NULL"? Nah.

VOTE: jerobbo

[fatlikepig]

Post #3 in my ISO.

[fatlikepig]

Jerobbo's response looks genuine enough.

Unvote

for now

[fatlikepig]

Would be stupid to give him a free townie pass (Same for Screaming Hawk).

Do you /really/ think that scum would fake something like, "HEY, DOES GREEN MEAN TOWN OR SCUM?!"

[fatlikepig]

Only red in your Role PM amirite

[fatlikepig]

Whoever thinks fat is town because he had a "slip" is dumb. He could be scum and could thought that. Or fake it. Or whatever. I myself thought we had to get all the scum since like 4 real life days ago, when I actually reread the opening post.

I have a question. You thought we had to get all the scum by the end of Day 1. Ergo, you misunderstood the setup. Why do you think it's unreasonable to attribute misunderstanding the setup as a town tell?

Because it can easily be faked (SH) or it can be an actual misunderstanding (fatpig). Im not saying this is the case here but no way am i giving anyone a free pass for something like that. Say, i also didnt knew if j was town or scum, i was gonna ask in the day if i wasnt nightkilled, but when J flipped i saw he was green and i said ok.

(also i thought that you had to get all the scum, period. Not all the scum before day 1 ended.)

I don't get it what you're trying to say here. If SH were scum, he'd know whether J was scum or not.

[fatlikepig]

Pidgey's continual denial of the validity of scum tells isn't sitting too well with me at the moment. Seems like the type of thing scum would do, keep their options, etc.

[fatlikepig]

Edit: Oops, meant towntells, not scumtells. Silly me.

[fatlikepig]

So you didn't mention this before equinox voted pidgey first?
Need the protection of ol' Equinox before you choose your myslynch?

lolno

I asked pidgey a question clarifying his position before I went to exams today. I responded after I came back.

[fatlikepig]

The irony of pidgey's vote, it's hilarious.

[fatlikepig]

But whatever, we've been going 2 pages with this and i rather look for scum like fat.

Make a case and come at me, bro.

[fatlikepig]

Jerobbo's recent posts, whoooooooa boy

But nah you're not bussing anyone, you were just going to have a fierce argument so people would ignore you and let the two of you go at it.

It was all too forced.

This actually makes no sense.
"WE'LL HAVE AN ARGUMENT SO EVERYONE IGNORES ME"? How does that even work? Why was their argument forced?

Missed it and then asking for clarification as well - surely using only one stalling tactic would have been enough??

What? Missing a post is not a scumtell. Asking for clarification is not a scumtell.

Jerobbo's making up reasons to vote Amrun. This seems very much like scum knowing that they've just jumped onto a mislynch wagon, and that they need to find their "own reasons" for lynching someone in order to avoid being suspicious. Neither of the things he's raised are even remotely scummy, and while in my case I'm unsure about Amrun's alignment, Jerobbo's posts do not sit well with me at all.

[fatlikepig]

When two people are arguing about something that no-one else really cares about - they often get left to their own devices. It makes perfect sense - ever walked into a room where 2 people are arguing and you just go "Awkwaaaard" and try and ignore it.

Mafia doesn't work that way. When two people have an argument, that intrinsically draws attention onto them. If FB and Amrun are calling each other scum, I don't see why town wouldn't care.

Why was it forced? Iso it and read it yourself.

I have read it. Why don't you tell me what bits sound forced?

Never said missing a post or asking for clarification was a scumtell but that post felt like stalling.

Stalling implies that you thought it was scummy.

I'm not making up reasons to vote for Amrun. 1. I'm not even voting for Amrun yet (although I happily would) 2. I've had reasons since my very first post in this game.

The only "reason" that you've had of your own to vote either FB or Amrun is the fact that you think that their argument is forced, and you yourself even admitted that you can't actually find evidence for your claim. That hardly sounds legitimate to me.

The fact that you're not voting Amrun right now doesn't change anything. You could quite easily BW-hop from here.

Lastly, if you think I'm trying to avoid being suspicious...I think you need to read better.

My reading ability is perfectly fine. Your ad hom in lieu of actually addressing the point is noted, though.

[fatlikepig]

Why is 782 scummy?

You still haven't addressed the fact that you accused me of following Equi, only to go and to the same with TS, Pidgey.

Where's Quil? :/

[fatlikepig]

VOTE: bvoigt

TS's case is a good one. As for the lack of interaction between myself and him, it wouldn't be the first time that two players haven't addressed each other for the whole game.

Also, NS is dead, Amrun. For someone defending him so much, I'd have expected you to realise.

[fatlikepig]

but you admit it's suspect that neither of you have even mentioned each other?

To be honest, not really. In one of my recent newbie games, two players never spoke to each other, and one of them was town. Given how little bv's talked until recently, I don't think, from an objective POV, that it's all that suspect.

[fatlikepig]

Amrun is pretty much town in my books. I'm not sure why Equi is copping so much flak for being delayed on analysis; I'm not inclined to believe that his claim of being busy is false.

Quil, on the other hand...

[fatlikepig]

TS, you seem to think that all 3 scum were on the NS wagon at the moment. Given that the setup is White Flag, don't you think that chances are that at least one, if not two, scum were on different wagons?

[fatlikepig]

Whoops, I thought I'd answered this.

Top 3 scumpicks at the moment are bv, Quil and jerobbo. Will probably change when/if bv flips, though.

[fatlikepig]

BV might be a good lynch but he is also an easy one, and really, easy lynches turn out to be scum few times unless said lynch really screws up badly so that's why im... hesitating. Im much more happy lynching fatlikepig or quil. I do find BV somewhat scummy but not that much. But would lynch to avoid no lynch. I dunno, there could be a scumbuddy busing him already if he's scum.

How is bv an easy lynch?

Judging by that post, I think Pidgey may be worth looking at tomorrow if bv flips scum. It looks very much like scum unwilling to bus a buddy to me.

Of course, if he flips town, I'm essentially dead as a doorknob tomorrow. Oh well.

[fatlikepig]

Keyword: may

Extending the deadline is usually disadvantageous for mafia anyway. We shouldn't be going off silly mod comments in any case.

[fatlikepig]

Why the hell would having more time to discuss things be disadvantageous for the town?

[fatlikepig]

If bvoigt flips scum, I'm thinking the rest of the team is probably pidgey/FB.

[fatlikepig]

I think if BV flips town then we can say SK is almost conf. scum

Furthermore I'm sure we can combine our two wagon lists and see the players who would have been common on both myslynches to nail the (or at least one) scum

Both pretty good reasons for scum SK to kill TS, tbh.

[fatlikepig]

It's because he switched to calling bv scum yesterday and tried to fit it in with the other his other scumreads, which didn't actually wind up making any sense.

[fatlikepig]

Ok if he slips scum then what are we learning?

I'd guess FB is scum if SK flips scum.

V/LA til Wednesday

[fatlikepig]

Mustn't be seen as a threat..
The reason I unvoted was the potential mod-slip. Considered it, then changed my mind on it.

@fat: What's your plan? Currently no vote

No vote because SK's at L-1. If people want a hammer right now, I'm willing to swing it, but I think keeping today going would be beneficial.

Why is pidgey still scum now that bv's flipped town?