Mini 1266 - My iTunes Mafia - GAME OVER

[Skenvoy]

/confirm

I saw this game in the queue and thought 'iTunes mafia sounds interesting' without even realising I was on the player list....

[Skenvoy]

Wooo! VOTE: Painted Face of Death for starting off the voting in the confirming stage.

[Skenvoy]

[J], you don't like meta? Why not?

[Skenvoy]

o.O it hadn't started before? I thought the link to "Let the day begin" meant it had. My bad.

VOTE: [J] cause we talked and I don't like repeating myself

[Skenvoy]

I know, I missed that bit (also I'm in a completely different time zone, which doesn't help).

[Skenvoy]

Nah, my main reason for wanting to out for the game was because I was still in the queue for a newbie, and had just replaced into another game - I figured that if I was in for this game as well, I wouldn't be able to play the newbie. I replaced into another game just before this game started, so the point is void.

Deasveil, why didn't you provide your reasons before being prompted?

[Skenvoy]

Well, talk about loaded questions. Want me to answer that for you, or are you waiting for PFoD's response?

I pretty much figured that Deasveil hadn't provided a reason for his vote on me to see who reacted, I just wanted to confirm it, and I wasn't going to say "Did you not provide a reason to see who'd respond?" as that's an easy out if he's scum.

I'm not sure about PFoD at the moment. I'm actually thinking there's a good chance that scum haven't even posted yet (considering that only 4 of us have) - I think they'd, more likely, sit back and watch for a while. That said, I have a small town read as Deas, because reaction fishing was something he never did as scum in our last game.

[Skenvoy]

Painted, do you have an opinion on whether Sken likes to play as mafia or not?

[Skenvoy]

Hokay.

[Skenvoy]

PFoD suggested in post 65 that I changed my mind because the list mod said it was too late to out - this is not true. I didn't even see that comment until PFoD linked to it. The first point I need to make (and I don't really give a fuck if it looks like buddying or communicating in the thread) is

PFOD, STOP FREAKING DEFENDING ME. I CAN DO IT MYSELF.

At the moment, I have a town read on Deasveil, cause he's playing completely differently to the way he's played a scum. Slandaar's sticking out a lot, and I think scum would play more cautiously at this stage of the game.

Slandaar: yes, I guess I can see that interpretation. But you have to realize that there were several poorly reasoned attacks and a lot of suspicious behavior relating to Sken. There was your odd post where you quoted a reasonable question of hers and voted her without explanation, which I FOSed. And there were DV's posts making the "staying in" argument.

So anything that anyone does at that point to challenge the poor reasoning could be interpreted as "buddying" Sken. I was online at the time, and as Town it's my job to fish out scum and look at poor reasoning. So I pointed it out.

This seems like a strategy scum might use: make poorly reasoned attacks on someone randomly, and then start a wagon on whoever calls you on the attacks, arguing they were "defending" the first person. If I hadn't criticized the logic fail then, someone else would have and then that person would be getting accused of "defending" Sken.

On a side note, I've made 14 posts, you've made 19, and most players haven't even made 4 yet. Seems like a good strategy for scum right now would just be to sit back and let the town fight it out.

In this post, PFoD basically repeats my earlier argument that scum are probably lying low, but the way he says it reeks of getting attention off himself (and me) - I don't like the way it's posted.

Skenvoy doesn't like being power roles by the way. At least that's what she's told me. I also know that she has wanted to be in a game as scum, since she has been town a lot recently. I don't why you can't accept that I had a fair reason to slightly suspect someone during RVS.

Painted, please clarify why you think I'm scum. Possible scum motivations behind my posts would also be nice.

You forgot to mention that I like playing vanilla just as much as I like playing mafia - you're right about the power roles. That said, I'd

never

/out or /in based on the PM I got. Even if it was the worst role in history, it WOULD NOT affect my choices to stay in the game or not. NEVER.

Oh, and Slandaar, I'd never vote for my scum buddy in RVS. I generally ignore them completely at that stage.

[Skenvoy]

I have a problem with anyone defending me, particularly before I've had a chance to myself. Firstly, it weakens my own defense, secondly, if the person defending me is scum and they go down, I get a bunch of extra suspicion on me. I've told you before that I don't see how defending someone is beneficial for town, because you'll never know whether the person is scum or not.

You're pretty much the only town read I have at the moment, which is why I repeated it.

A question for you: Why do you ask why I have a problem with PFoD defending me when you

know

I have a problem with defense of others in general?

[Skenvoy]

I wasn't complaining about it, I was telling him to stop. I just did a quick iso of him, and what jumped out at me was that he seems to...almost assume I'm not scum, which, added to the defending, does make me suspicious.

However, I still want to look more closely at the less noisy players. Guttersnipe hasn't voted at all, which is more acceptable that usual considering we got out of RVS in...like...4 posts (which has to be some sort of record), but I'm still not sure what to think on it. Monk (and others have FOSd or voted him based, presumably, on this) votes me without analysis of the situation. The one that catches my eye, though, is metabot, who has posted analysis, but hasn't commented at all on the main conflict.

@Metabot, why didn't you comment on the stuff between me/PFoD/Deas/Slan? And what exactly are your thoughts on it?

[Skenvoy]

Oh, and Slandaar, I'd never vote for my scum buddy in RVS. I generally ignore them completely at that stage.

This might be true I dunno, im not going to be taking your word for it though and if it is true, you might want to look into that as its a huge tell.

Yeah, I know. I'll probably change it up sometime, but at the moment I don't think I've played enough games for it to be an issue.

In this post, PFoD basically repeats my earlier argument that scum are probably lying low, but the way he says it reeks of getting attention off himself (and me) - I don't like the way it's posted.

However, I still want to look more closely at the less noisy players. Guttersnipe hasn't voted at all, which is more acceptable that usual considering we got out of RVS in...like...4 posts (which has to be some sort of record), but I'm still not sure what to think on it. Monk (and others have FOSd or voted him based, presumably, on this) votes me without analysis of the situation. The one that catches my eye, though, is metabot, who has posted analysis, but hasn't commented at all on the main conflict.

So, what is the difference? this seems pretty scummy, one rule for one person a different rule for me.

What you have just suggested is literally what Painted said, which you imply is scummy, odd.

I'm not suggesting we ignore the main conflict happening, I just don't want to let the quieter players slide. PFoD's post, at least to me, looked like he wanted attention off him.

Nah, my main reason for wanting to out for the game was because I was still in the queue for a newbie, and had just replaced into another game - I figured that if I was in for this game as well, I wouldn't be able to play the newbie. I replaced into another game just before this game started, so the point is void.

For what it's worth, even though Sken got the rules wrong, this reasoning is confirmed by Sken's post before anything happened in this game: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 1#p3557691

(The actual rules: If you haven't completed a game on this site, like Skenvoy, a Newbie game has to be the ONLY game you're playing. If you've

completed

more than two games, you can still play a newbie game as a Semi-Experienced player: there are two SEs per Newbie game, more/less if needed. See http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =4&t=16824 )

In any case, since Sken hasn't yet completed a game on this site and is relatively new, I'm willing to accept all this entry/leaving stuff as just trying to figure out the rules.

----

On a separate note, apparently DV and Sken know each other in person or something?

It is only very slight, but I know that Skenvoy expressed interesting in outing this game before role pms went out and I know that she hasn't been scum much recently, so I think that a scum role pm may have encouraged her to stay in.

Skenvoy doesn't like being power roles by the way. At least that's what she's told me. I also know that she has wanted to be in a game as scum, since she has been town a lot recently.

At the moment, I have a town read on Deasveil, cause he's playing completely differently to the way he's played a scum.

You forgot to mention that I like playing vanilla just as much as I like playing mafia - you're right about the power roles.

You guys want to comment on this relationship, seeing as all these games must have been offsite? Are you generalizing from in-person games? That can be a risky business because people can come off very different in writing. I'm kind of suspicious of this argument from private communications.

PFOD, STOP FREAKING DEFENDING ME. I CAN DO IT MYSELF.

At the moment, I have a town read on Deasveil, cause he's playing completely differently to the way he's played a scum. Slandaar's sticking out a lot, and I think scum would play more cautiously at this stage of the game.

Skenvoy, why do you have such a problem with PFoD defending you?

Your town read on me doesn't seem quite right. Why do you feel the need to express your town read on me (twice) and justify it using meta (twice)?

It's probably worth pointing out that I've never defended Skenvoy as innocent, though I have pointed out that one particular thing (asking if she could leave) does not strike me as relevant one way or the other. The whole "stop defending me" comes off as slightly scummy to me, actually. It's very defensive, heh. I agree with DV that the town read doesn't seem quite right, and I don't like that Skenvoy's going out of her way to misrepresent me as defending her.

I'm leaning towards Skenvoy as scum now. I still suspect DV and I'm going to wait and see what responses I get before changing my vote. And still nothing from DJ after his one long scummy post.

Question: after I attacked DV early on, several people jumped on me. Were they "defending" DV? Was that suspicious?

This post. Jesus, PFoD, you HAVE been defending me at least slightly, don't try to say you weren't. Every time you post a link saying 'Look, I think this means Sken's telling the truth', it's defending. Screw everyone else, I want to lynch this guy right now.

VOTE: Painted Face of Death

And yes, I'm aware that if he flips scum, I'm going to probably be lynched next. But that's cool with me.

[Skenvoy]

Oh, and metabot, Deas and I know each other in rl and sometimes talk about mafia when we're not in games together. We haven't talked since the beginning of this one.

[Skenvoy]

Oh, and PFoD, Deas and I know each other in rl and sometimes talk about mafia when we're not in games together. We haven't talked since the beginning of this one.

EBWOP

[Skenvoy]

I'm putting my vote on Painted because I'm sick of him defending me when I've asked him to stop. Added to that, the fact that he's saying he didn't.

Okay, if I'm honest, I don't expect him to be lynched quickly. However, that's where I'm leaving my vote for now.

[Skenvoy]

*blink* That's not what I said. I think defending is something scum would do more often than town. I do think it's a scumtell, and Painted is looking more like scum to me with every post.

That said, if the vote gets him to stop doing it, it's a pleasant side effect.

(And I totally bet Painted completely turns on me for it.)

[Skenvoy]

@Deasveil, about [J]'s town read on us, I'm not sure. The main problem for me is that he shares two of my town reads (you and...me [which isn't a problem for you, as you have a scum read on me]), which I want to keep an eye on (as I'm not sure how often town's town reads coincide.)

The post where you said "rank people based on something like scummy (in my opinion) behaviour : no. of posts ratio" - how did you work that out, exactly? I'm interested.

[Skenvoy]

To clarify, the reason I'm wary is because I'm confident in my town read(s) at the moment, and I think the people who would get the reads right most often would be scum (obviously, as they actually know who town are). Therefore, I'm uncertain about anyone who's town reads coincide with mine a lot.

[Skenvoy]

Okay, that's cool. It sounded mathematical, what with ratios and colons.

[Skenvoy]

I don't think it's really WIFOMy, myself - I think mafia are more likely to have correct town reads than town are. And yes, it's paranoid. I know.

I was rereading, and this stood out to me:

sken signed up. wanted out. pms were distributed. sken wanted in. is there something wrong with the timeline here? cause it makes perfect sense to me. dumb reason for a vote, but a reason nonetheless. deas is not the one making a big deal out of it. in fact, his vote post was rather subdued. the reaction to it is what has been overblown. i don't see deas "sneakily" implying anything. i think his posting is up front.

also, paint seems to be referring to sken as "she". maybe i missed the gender tag, but paint certainly seems familiar with the maiden he's whiteknighting atm.

I actually think painted replied to this a while back, but I didn't go back and check it at the time. What is interesting to me is that Deasveil has been referring to me by the correct gender as well (and knows me a hell of a lot better than painted, which I think is obvious from our posts), but DJ didn't (and hasn't) mentioned it at all. Seems a bit of a double standard to me.

[Skenvoy]

That's the thing. I would not expect to be such an easy town read from you

Edit based on Skenvoy post: Everything's subjective so that's as close to mathematical as it gets.

Edit based on [J]'s post: ooo, I agree with Skenvoy's posts regarding town reads and don't see it as very WIFOMy. Maybe I'm wrong though. I don't know about forced.

I'm just confused by the early-ish votes on Skenvoy (after Slandaar's)

I don't see why - in the normal timeframe of a game, we'd still be in RVS at that point, where bandwagons often build up without reasoning. I'm not sure it was clear that we were completely out of RVS until a few posts after that.

PEdit on [J]'s post (your name is really annoying to type)
It doesn't say much unless DJ is scum, really, it's just something I wanted to point out (and I'd like DJ to comment on it when he gets on).

Yeah, really good town could have good reads as well. I just think it's less likely, especially considering that really bad scum can have good town reads without any effort at all.

[Skenvoy]

You're 'biased'? How do you mean? You said this earlier (how you didn't think you'd vote me at any stage in the game) - is it a pride thing? If I (or Deas) became really scummy over the next few days, would your 'bias' prevent you from recognizing or admitting it?

[Skenvoy]

I don't really think I had a reason. It was more 'Oh, I bet he does this', and added it to the post.

[Skenvoy]

I said I didn't expect a quick lynch, not that I didn't expect a lynch at all. I mean, I didn't expect (or want) everyone else to go "Okay, let's Vote: PFoD". I don't think my vote is worthless.

Metabot, why do you trust J on his reads? Do you have a particularly strong town read on him - if not, why follow him?

Slandaar... *sigh* I knew someone would call me out on my "I trust my own town reads, but I think scum are more likely to have correct reads" - I knew when I was typing it. I said 'more likely', not 'people with correct reads are scum.' I had a moment of regret after I posted it, but didn't really think it through before.

[Skenvoy]

Slandaar, I have a question - if you think Painted and I are both scum, why did you vote me instead of him? You've told us your reasons for thinking we're both scum, but not specifically why you voted for who you did.

At the moment, I have a town read on you - you've been contributing well, and your points are logical.

Your reads at the moment, I assume, are based around the suspicion that I'm scum. If I'm lynched and flip town, how would they change?

[Skenvoy]

Okay, um, apparently I am allowed to play in the newbie game after all...

It appears that the limit is one

newbie

game at a time? Anyway, just putting it out there before someone else uses it to say "OMG SCUM".

[Skenvoy]

MONK IS HERE! MONK IS BROWSING THE FORUM! MONK, IF YOU DON'T POST, MY VOTE'S GOING TO YOU!

(response to Painted's post coming up)

[Skenvoy]

Scratch that, I just noticed he's requested replacement

[Skenvoy]

I'm liking Painted's recent post - he's focusing on scumhunting, rather than defending (actually, he's got a good mixture of both).

UNVOTE

for now. I want to go back and reread. Expect another post.

Also, just looked at the activity log - half the players have over 20 or 30 posts, the other half all have under 10. Internet Stranger hasn't commented on anything, at all.

[Skenvoy]

Some things:

Or is it also that scum would be nervous of putting themselves out on a limb and would therefore wish to gauge reactions before committing to a solid vote?

Ha, regarding that last one, what do you think of this?

"I still suspect DV and I'm going to wait and see what responses I get before changing my vote."

I find it telling that Skenvoy did not respond to this question. She could have missed it. It could be that she wishes to avoid analysing Painted's posts for scummy behavior, because he is her scumbuddy, as others have hypothesised.

No, that was something I missed. That thing said by Painted was awful, cause mentioning that you're doing a scummy thing doesn't make it less scummy. (And, for extra funnies, I'm disregarding my own rules again in a moment - look, Slandaar, more fodder for you!)


UNVOTE: PaintedFaceofDeath
LOOK. I'M VOTING PFOD AGAIN. OH NOES, I'M VOTEHOPPING. I'M OBVSCUM.

Read through again, and I like none of his post. Lynch me, then lynch him next. I'm cool with that.

Not liking Fennin's posts, and I don't like meta's either. Slandaar's leaning town, Deas is definitely town. IS and all the other people who've hardly posted are annoying and need to stop not posting. [J] is weird. Guttersnipe (who I have a null read on) made a lot of good points about him.

[Skenvoy]

Shit, I meant VOTE: PaintedFaceofDeath

Obviously. *headdesk*

[Skenvoy]

I meant painted postS. I paused for a while, because his post on DJ was good, but DJ replied with an equally good post. I went back and read, and realised that I'd erased an entire game because of one post, which was stupid. However, my reason for voting him is a bit simpler than that.

Basically: I know I'm town, and I can't possibly see a town motivation for defending me like that.

If I'm lynched and flip town, is Painted still suspected by you?

[Skenvoy]

I think Painted's scum, and when I flip town, I think it's pretty likely that he'll be lynched next.

[Skenvoy]

I object to that statement, I wouldn't say I was pushing for my lynch. In my eyes, it doesn't really matter either way, as if PFoD's lynched and flips scum, it seems a near certainty that I'll be lynched tomorrow.

[Skenvoy]

I want to go back and do a proper reread of the game, and get my reads sorted out, but I have no time at the moment - expect it sometime tomorrow (probably around midday or early afternoon where I am).

[Skenvoy]

Deasveil: You're acting strange - it's like you really want me to think you're scum. I can't understand the motivation for that, from either town or scum.

[Skenvoy]

Gahhh, I said I can't do it now, I have to go to bed. I want

time

to reread and build a case (and sort out my reads ). I've said I will, and I've said when I will - stop trying to misrepresent me as scummy for something I've explained.

I'm logging off and going to sleep now. See ya.

[Skenvoy]

Okay, I'm basically reading through the game again, and posting my thoughts as I go.

Posts 15 - 17: J says that he doesn't like meta, which actually supports his read on me later on.
Post 29: I find it curious that Painted fos'd Slandaar but didn't vote him, considering Painted's vote was still there from RVS. Painted, why didn't you vote Slandaar then?
Post 30: I wasn't worried about the vote, I wanted to confirm that you did it for the reasons I suspected. Or are people under suspicion not allowed to scumhunt?
Post 31: Well, we're still quite close to RVS, I guess. The reasons are fairly weak, but valid.
Post 32: Didn't notice this before, but Slandaar's post here in relation to Deasveil is actually fairly similar to Painted's first post in relation to me - he's questioning an attack on someone else before that person has a chance to address it themselves.
Post 33 - 34: That's a fair enough conclusion at that stage of the game.
Post 35: I'm actually not sure about this post...I agree than Painted overreacted, but honestly, most everyone did. If you think your post was just RVS and not worth overreacting to, why didn't you comment on Slandaar's vote as well?
Post 39: Okay, that explains it a little better, but I'm still not sure I agree, because that's without a doubt nitpicking - talking about the format of a case rather than its content.
Post 41: I don't like this post at all. Seems a little too much like subtle buddying.

Okay, something I've just realised. It's almost impossible for me to read Painted clearly - I'm too intertwined in his scumminess/not scumminess. I mean, I just can't get a read on him without my emotions interfering. If someone really wants me to post a case on him, I will, but it'll be completely biased.

Post 46: I'm not sure about this one. I guess town could have very strong reads earlier in the game, but it seems more likely that scum would. I don't know.
Post 47: The thing about this post is that your only vote was from RVS - you obviously felt somewhat suspicious of Slandaar, so wouldn't even slight suspicion be better than a vote for no reason at all?
Post 49: The thing about this, Painted, is that it was a

day one vote

. In most games, that's still RVS (and it was RVS here). You don't need good reasoning in RVS.

End of Page 2. Thoughts so far: Slandaar is looking worse to me on a second readthrough, although I wouldn't vote for him yet. Posting in blocks to avoid a wall post.

PEdit: Yeah, I admit I haven't been scumhunting as much as I could have (which I'm trying to rectify at the moment). This is the first time in a mafia game where I've really been under proper pressure, and since it's been practically from the beginning of the game, I've been less helpful than I could've been. I know it's not much of an excuse, but I

am

trying to scumhunt properly now.

[Skenvoy]

Post 50: I still don't see the point of this question. I don't actually know painted, so I don't see why he'd have an opinion.
Post 51: Not sure what I think about this. Adding nothing to the conversation. Liking Slandaar's response.
Post 61: His first point on me...just...What happened, was I provided an explanation for the situation, based on what I knew. I never said 'the point is void' - I provided my own take and knowledge on what was happening. This part...

first, the "reasons" make sense, just because they are "meta" does not invalidate them. in regards to the italicized, exactly the point. so why is sken choosing to defend himself.

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Was I supposed to not defend myself, or answer questions I've been asked? Not making a whole lot of sense at this point. I'm also interested that his entire post is commenting on Painted, yet he doesn't move his vote there. Why not?
Post 62: Actually, I'm finding myself agreeing with a lot of this, maybe because I didn't like DJ's post either. At the moment, my reads are (scum is top)
DJ
Painted
Slandaar
Deasveil

Post 64: Hm...I agree with his points, but honestly, it's mainly rehashing of what's been said before - not adding much to the argument while staying on the side with the majority.
Post 65: Ugh, this post is one of the major reasons I dislike Painted. He seems incapable of understanding that the reason people are thinking I'm scummy is not because of the /inning or /outing, it's due to the reactions following that post. The only thing I agree with in this post is his reaction to DJ.
Post 66: Hmm...J seems to have a great deal of town reads.
Post 68: I find it interesting that Fennin didn't revote. He seems to have something of the same reaction to DV's vote as Painted did, but he's really just fencesitting at the moment. Christ, one post and I'm already really disliking Fennin.
Post 71: I do find it interesting that he's called out Painted for it, rather than DJ. If either J or DJ flipped scum, I'd be looking closely at the other. However, without the connection with DJ, I'm not minding J too much at the moment.

[Skenvoy]

Post 75: I'm not minding Guttersnipe so much this time through.
Post 76: I somewhat agree with his points on Slandaar.
Post 81: I agree with this post. It's good.

I know I said a couple of posts ago that I didn't think I'd be able to get a good read on Painted, however, rereading as neutrally as I can, he's actually starting to look more town to me. Post 83, he's completely telling the truth in regards to DJ, and I think he's being honest with his opinions. At the moment, he's around equal with Slandaar in regards to my scum reads. Both Fennin and DJ are scummier than them, DV is townier, and I don't have a clear read on J or Noramp.

Post 86: Better than Fennin's entry, worse than Noramp's. If either monk or Painted flip scum, I'd be looking at the other.

I am actually going back to something I thought possible earlier: I don't think any of the early prolific posters are scum (which means I think Slandaar, Painted and Deasveil are all town). This is largely because I haven't seen a single good first post from ANYONE else (except perhaps Gutter's).

Post 94: Attempt to seem like he's scumhunting while he's really not doing anything at all. I think I commented earlier on the fact that he hardly said anything about the main conflict.
Post 96: Deas has got this funny little thing whereby whenever he unvotes and votes someone else, he puts a qualifier "This doesn't mean you're off the hook". He's done it twice so far.

At the moment, I'm feeling Fennin, metabot, monk, and DJ for scum.

PEdit: Deas, what? Where did I say I have a scum read on you?
PEdit again: That point is since null (see above). The emotions came mostly from the fact that I was being properly attacked for the first time in a game of mafia, and (from where I'm standing) a lot of it was due to you.

[Skenvoy]

Ohh, the post above yours? You obviously didn't notice, I said "Scum is top".

[Skenvoy]

Post 104: Ugh, I completely agree with this now. My post back there was awful.
Post 105: I don't see why Painted suspects us of private communications. It feels off to me. Also, I noted Slandaar's reaction to you suspecting Deas this time around as well. Maybe you're a bit more perceptive than me?
Post 106: Ah, that's where the question came from. It was too general, I didn't realise it was addressed to me particularly. Guttersnipe's leaning town for me at the moment, but I find it interesting that he's said "I swear to God Painted, I want to see you hanged just for being irrational" and still not voted. However, this seems to be regular for him, so it's not too suspicious.
Post 108: I didn't "intend" for Painted to address anything, I can't control what he comments on. I didn't address it myself because there's really nothing for me to address.
Post 109: This post is better than is first one. However, it almost seems like he's voting Metabot for his choice of words.
Post 110: Again, better than his earlier posts. He's making more sense in this one.
Post 112: Okay, I'll come clean with this one. Although I had a slight scum read on Painted, the vote was fueled by emotion - I was annoyed at his defence and trying to get him to stop it. As it happens, I think it worked, but the vote wasn't "He's scum", it was "OMFG JESUS CHRIST THIS GUY NEEDS TO STOP I'M VOTING!"
post 117: And that vote's fair enough.
Post 122: Hm...I've already commented on J's posts, and the thing I said earlier still applies; that he seems to have a great deal of town reads. I'm actually finding it really hard to get a read on him, though.

Actually, reading over, I was wondering why J's defence of me doesn't bother me as much as Painted's did, when I realised that the problem with Painted was that he defended me before I had a chance to defend myself. That seems to be the main difference.

Post 135: Deasveil's opinions keep coinciding with mine, which is part of the reason I believe he's town. His reads don't, though, which is why I'm not suspicious of him in the way I was suspicious of J.
Post 155: Yeah, the interaction was definitely different to the way I'd played before. That's primarily because it was nice to have the chance to play a bit of mafia with someone who didn't think I was almost-definitely scum.
Post 156: I completely disagree. If there was a twentysomething white, male, police officer who's investigating a crime, and the crime is done mostly by twentysomething white males, it's not hypocritical for the police officer to take that into account when forming their own suspicions.
Post 157: Hm...I still find that bias stuff weird.
Post 169: Ugh, I still don't like this post. It's all "I'm not confident enough to offer my own opinions, so I'll take someone else's.
Post 170: "Thank you metabot for your post"? What was the point of this sentence?
Post 176: This post confuses me. I don't understand it.
Post 182: Hm..your point that J could be scum wanting points off a townie mislynch is true. If scum were to defend townies, I agree with the person (can't remember who) who said they'd do it later in the day rather than earlier. But, like I said earlier, I'm finding it really difficult to get a read on J. This post as a whole isn't bad, although his reason why he's voting me "My suspicion on Painted depends on a Skenvoy scumflip" is weird - do you actually think I'm scum, DJ? Your case on me seems mostly to rest on Painted - I just still find it weird that you're voting me when nearly all your points are about Painted, despite your explanation.
Post 186: This is weird, he's almost harping on the original point that Deas made. Actually, this post as a whole isn't making a lot of sense. I'm liking Fennin for scum at the moment.
Post 190: The thing is, Painted, attacking someone else's attacked IS a form of defence. Just like OMGUS is.
Post 193: I actually do find the gender thing odd as well, not because of the original point (although that was increadibly weak and weird), but because DJ attacked Painted for harping on a 'minor point' in his argument, when in fact, it was only an equally small part of Painted's response. Originally, he didn't dedicate any more time or words to it than DJ did.
Post 198 & 199: Why does everyone make posts that I agree with? DJ, the reason I 'accepted' Painted's defence was that I honestly thought he'd stop once people started attacking him for it. He didn't, so then I got involved.

[Skenvoy]

DJ, what happens to your reads if I flip town?

[Skenvoy]

Deasveil: You're acting strange - it's like you really want me to think you're scum. I can't understand the motivation for that, from either town or scum.

What happened to

Deas is definitely town.

? (I'm assuming that by "...want me to think you're scum" you mean to imply that something DV has just done seemed scummy to you)

Other than DV voting you, I mean. I would hope that there's more to your new suspicion of DV than "he voted me".

Either way, it would be nice if you would explain what you meant in your post (237).

Don't assume, that's not what I meant. I get the vibe from Deas' posts that he would prefer it if I thought him scum, which does not mean I think he's scum.

I actually do find the gender thing odd as well, not because of the original point (although that was increadibly weak and weird), but because DJ attacked Painted for harping on a 'minor point' in his argument, when in fact, it was only an equally small part of Painted's response. Originally, he didn't dedicate any more time or words to it than DJ did.

^^ please qualify this with quotes. compare my original point to painteds original response. then show where i brought it up again, then where painted brought it up again. and so on. maybe we can count up actual words to qualify this idea.

also, sken, would you mind voting IS? you were one of the players earlier calling out lurkers. why now(after 10 pages) are you unwilling to act in that direction? same request and question to painted.

I'll dig up a couple of posts after this one. I don't mind voting IS.

VOTE: Internet Stranger

I was waiting to vote until after I'd done my reread, to see if anyone jumped out as scummy to me. At the moment, it's Fennin, metabot, and almost you, but your recent posts are good. I'm going back to do an iso on Fennin and metabot, but I definitely don't want a lynch until IS posts something of content.

PEdit...hm, I suppose that's fair enough. It just sounded weird to me.

[Skenvoy]

okey dokey [j] heres my take:

first page: painted rvs vote looks like it could be scum over the top trying to be funny/fit in with townies. i read the "*evil laugh* more like a nervous laugh if that makes sense. nothing huge, but certainly the first thing to ping any sort of scumdar.

then deas votes serious? i guess so. if you notice, sken had voted painted in confirm stage, then changed his random vote to [J]. why rvs twice? i don't know. again nothing big, but certainly odd.

painted calls deas out. sure he

could

be a concerned townie looking for the first

serious

vote to be explained. but why bother? why not let sken handle it?

deas then produces a wierd "meta" type reason for his vote. ok. whatevz.

then sken says: "point is void". but in fact, if sken is scum the point is not void. infact, nothing sken can say makes the point void. the "point" is really just an opinion. but again, whatevz. i mean, what is sken gonna say? "herp derp, you got me, i'm scum." i don't think so.

then slan quotes the silly question sken asks of deas. not posting a reason until you are asked is a very townie thing to do. it helps you guage reactions. thats kinda mafiascum 101 imo. its just a really weak response to the vote in the first place. its like sken plays it off as though he's not concerned, but then he asks a question which shows concern. just wierd.

i guess to me, slan's post was self explanatory. so painted's "wtf was that?" post reads like chainsaw defense. then looking back at the rvs connection, it seems to all come together for me.

then deas points out what i saw earlier. then painted actually votes deas which reads like an even bigger chainsaw defense of sken. deas points are valid, ah shit, lets just break it down:

Three reasons:
a) not providing reasons at first, then saying "because I knew someone would prompt me." Why not just provide them up front instead of fishing for questions with a useless post?

"fishing" is a large part of scumhunting. and is useful. the "useless post" actually generated reactions, discussions, and so "useless" does not really apply.

b) the reasons he did provide don't make much sense. They're super meta and consist of reading way too much into a comment that the theme seems cool.

Skenvoy didn't say anything about defending her "choice to stay in the game" and there's no need to defend such a choice anyway

.

first, the "reasons" make sense, just because they are "meta" does not invalidate them. in regards to the italicized, exactly the point. so why is sken choosing to defend himself.

c) finally, post 30 doesn't make much sense either. I don't really even want to get into this because it's so meta and besides the point, but DV's theory doesn't work even on its own terms. Skenvoy signed up for the game -- presumably because she was interested -- and then asked if she could get out, which DV finds weirdly suspicious. Yet in post 30 DV seems to think, or try to sneakily imply, that staying in requires some sort of explanation and that Skenvoy's explanation wasn't relevant.

sken signed up. wanted out. pms were distributed. sken wanted in. is there something wrong with the timeline here? cause it makes perfect sense to me. dumb reason for a vote, but a reason nonetheless. deas is not the one making a big deal out of it. in fact, his vote post was rather subdued. the reaction to it is what has been overblown. i don't see deas "sneakily" implying anything. i think his posting is up front.

also, paint seems to be referring to sken as "she". maybe i missed the gender tag, but paint certainly seems familiar with the maiden he's whiteknighting atm.

slan notices the same thing i notice at that point, which is the growing connection between sken and painted. hence, "sken you are a beacon of light."

not sure why deas moves their vote next, but that post makes sense.

38 reads like painted trying to downplay his reactions.

slan in 42 is a good point.

so here we go again:

i) First, you vote for Skenvoy, providing reasons when asked. There's nothing wrong with this in itself: it's just that your reasoning is poor.

nope. painted's "a)" from earlier was all about "not providing reasons at first". suddenly its not a big deal?

ii) Next, I vote for you, explaining my reasons. Note that my reasons did not include you being suspicious of a player and voting. That's not what I suspect you for: I suspect you for the reasons I listed.

what?? this makes no sense to me and i have no idea why this is even numbered.

iii) Finally, you switch your vote to me, apparently for providing reasons ("trying to make my vote seem justified"). You backpedal on i), saying it was just a useless RVS post, but RVS ends when people actually get suspicious and start having reasons for their votes. You say I'm nitpicking by voting for you based on my early suspicion, when at the same time, you vote for me based on yours.

this is not an equation imo. painted provided bullshit reasons. deas provided good ones. this an "apples to oranges" type of lgic here.

There's nothing wrong with either of us voting based on our suspicions -- this game is all about analysis -- it's just a matter of whether the reasoning is solid. Yours isn't. There's nothing odd about Skenvoy thinking she'd be ineligible for a newbie game if she joined this one and asking if she could leave, then staying in once she realized she was ineligible anyway, the game had already started, and the theme was kickass. The way you and Slandaar tried to start something on Skenvoy for poor reasons, then backpedal once you're called on it, is pretty suspicious.

i didn't see any backpedaling. i guess if you and sken are town, then this could be some scum mastermind plan, but deas voted sken before she offered her explanation, its not like deas listened to sken's explanation and

then

voted. deas just pointed out that the reasoning was really irrelevant to the original reason for voting. it wasn't a big deal, just a solid piece of logic.

sken 53 could be right, we could all be town here, but it also gives him an out to conveniently not have to suspect painted. if they are buddies, that is probably the right play for sken. start distancing. the fact that he doesn't

really

comment on painted at this point is worrisome. i.e. he just glances the argument and fencesits.

so i guess we're back here. how was that?

I can't decide if Don Johnson's post was more scummy or VI. What do you guys think? A lot of spreading confusion and misinformation there:

not posting a reason until you are asked is a very townie thing to do. it helps you guage reactions. thats kinda mafiascum 101 imo.

I have to disagree with this as a matter of strategy. It smells scummy to me, though I don't really think that by itself is a major tell. I'm not familiar with people doing that.

i guess to me, slan's post was self explanatory. so painted's "wtf was that?" post reads like chainsaw defense.

So to me, it wasn't self-explanatory, though I see your point. If you're used to that kind of play then it's not that remarkable.

I can't tell if you're genuinely not understanding the idea of the chainsaw defense, or if you're deliberately muddying the waters. Chainsaw defense is when you argue that someone is innocent by attacking their attacker. It's different from noticing that an attacker is scummy. I have no idea if Sken is innocent or scum, one way or the other: to me, what's far more interesting and important is the bullshit arguments for Sken's guilt which make DV look scummy.

"fishing" is a large part of scumhunting. and is useful. the "useless post" actually generated reactions, discussions, and so "useless" does not really apply.

This is actually a valid point. It didn't turn out to be useless. By itself, not giving reasons is no big deal, but in combination with the other things DV looked scummy.

sken signed up. wanted out. pms were distributed. sken wanted in. is there something wrong with the timeline here? cause it makes perfect sense to me. dumb reason for a vote, but a reason nonetheless. deas is not the one making a big deal out of it.

That was my entire point. Dumb reason for a vote, and it's all we had to go on at the time, so I voted DV. It may have just been DV not understanding the situation with Sken. But looking at what's happened since then, I'm suspecting DV.

also, paint seems to be referring to sken as "she". maybe i missed the gender tag

Seriously? It's under Sken's avatar, just like all the other gender tags. I don't think you missed it, I think you're trying to stir up trouble. This is pretty shady right there.

You seem to be having trouble following post 45. Basically, DV seemed to think that there was something wrong with giving reasons for why I thought someone was scum based on an early suspicion. My entire point was, as you say:

this is not an equation imo. painted provided bullshit reasons. deas provided good ones. this an "apples to oranges" type of lgic here.

except that my reasons were good and DV's were bullshit.

I said DV's reasons were bullshit, DV said "you gave reasons too!" and I explained that the problem was not with giving reasons, but that his reasons were bullshit.

i didn't see any backpedaling.

The backpedaling is a big part of why I suspect DV. His first vote was pretty clear that he thought Sken was guilty, but later he tried to pass it of as just part of the random voting phase.

The time given to the gender mention is about the same in both posts. And you both suggested that it could mean the other is scum. I was just interested that people jumped on Painted for refuting your point, while you've largely managed to escape attention.

@My last post: That was directed at DV, I forgot to make that known so apologies. x_X

Seriously? It's under Sken's avatar, just like all the other gender tags. I don't think you missed it, I think you're trying to stir up trouble. This is pretty shady right there.

This is the part that was unsettling to me because it is a really bad point to try and make someone scummy for not recognizing gender of a player. You accuse him of doing it on purpose to make you look worse.

Within the rest of the post, you don't really fend off DJ but more or less qualify what he has brought up against you which is why I don't like it. It's not really a solid defense.

My bad, you didn't jump on it first, J did. Still, I find it odd.

[Skenvoy]

This went fast. Already out of the RVS, that's not a bad thing at all. No reason to keep a joke vote active :

UNVOTE: don_johnson

I don't agree at all that DV's reasoning was well thought out. I mean, theoretically it could have been true that she really really wanted to be out of this game, then saw that she got a scum role, got excited, and decided to stay in, sure. It seems unlikely to me. I don't see any reason why this would be true. While it's theoretically possible, there's no evidence that it's the case. Proposing the possibility was no big deal.

I quite agree with this. It's a little bit too easy to just say that she changed her mind because she got a scum role. It may be possible, but frankly I doubt it.

DV's rvs vote seemed serious. No doubt about this. While I find it interesting to end the rvs stage as soon as possible, the reasons of DV's vote were odd. Trying to go for an easy lynch, or just wanting to trigger a discussion and get this game started ? Or maybe it is some smart distancing? It seems like you both have a history, and I don't like meta-gaming interfering.

Okay, his first post apart from confirmation and RVS. I don't like the fact that he unvotes from RVS without voting again - unlike Guttersnipe, the fact that he participated in RVS shows that he doesn't mind voting, so why doesn't he vote, say, Deas in this post, if he thinks his posts were odd? Personally, I find DV's first vote semi-serious, he wasn't looking to get me lynched because of it, but it had more reasoning than your average RVS vote. This post is pure fencesitting - he's saying he pretty much agrees with Painted, yet he won't vote Deasveil, or even offer a proper opinion of his own.

I did not understand why painted couldn't consider the theory, its weak and completely depends on what role she prefers playing and even then it might not even be relevant it might just be she could play for whatever reason, but the reasoning behind its pretty good I mean she could have replaced out if she wanted, so shes seen her role and decided to stay in, ok, thats cool, but there is a slight chance the role helped to make her decision. it completely looked like scum jumping to buddys aid, there was no reason to come out guns blazing against that reasoning.

While this is possible, you forget to point out in your theory that she could have received another active role, on town's side, and wanting to stay in because of it? It seems you are only focusing on her possible scum role.

Skenvoy doesn't like being power roles by the way. At least that's what she's told me. I also know that she has wanted to be in a game as scum, since she has been town a lot recently. I don't why you can't accept that I had a fair reason to slightly suspect someone during RVS.

That's a little bit more solid and fits the theory. I don't know Skenvoy, but I have a bad feeling about this. Now you could be trying to mislead us too. That's why I hate meta-gaming issues.

You guys are arguing over whether Sken and Painted are buddies and focusing on Painted, meanwhile Sken is not getting the attention she deserves.

I disagree. The votes are not telling it but the main subject here is Sken.

PFOD, STOP FREAKING DEFENDING ME. I CAN DO IT MYSELF.At the moment, I have a town read on Deasveil, cause he's playing completely differently to the way he's played a scum. Slandaar's sticking out a lot, and I think scum would play more cautiously at this stage of the game.

The change of style could be done on purpose. Or did you play a lot of games together? Meta-gaming again ... :/

On the other, there are plenty of people, like me, who could be slightly lurking either because of real life issues

or something else entirely

. Thus, to attempt to be somewhat productive in this discussion, I will try to give an objective view on their behavior:

Like what for example? Being scum?

VOTE: Metabot

I'd like to hear more from you. And since you are not V/LA I think you might have time to answer.

This post is awful. He's constantly dismissing both DV's and my reads on each other, because they're 'meta', without offering an opinion of his own. All his points are basically "I don't agree with this," "I hate meta," etc, etc, without taking a clear stance at all. Finally, instead of having to get down from his fence, he votes for a lurker for...uh, being a lurker and some weird wording issue. Fennin, why do you constantly refuse to take a stance on Deasveil, myself, and anyone else who's actually posted enough to give you a read?

Your reasoning against Metabot is ick ick ick to me. You are voting him for a word contortion you created by putting words into his mouth in an almost joking matter. You go the entire post saying stuff about how Sken is the person of interest, addresse a few odd posts but don't do much of anything with them. You also say that you would like to hear more from Metabot.....where are the questions to help that? It seems counter-productive to say you want more from him but just leave it at that. What exactly do you wanna hear from him? I don't like that little stick it to him you did based on "Since you are not on V/LA you should answer me."

I'm putting on vote down on Metabot to attract attention. I found the bolded part of my previous Metabot's quote suspicious, nothing more. Well at least Metabot understood that :

Fair enough. Voteprods will get my attention.

UNVOTE: Metabot

I've got null on Fennin at the moment, but Fennin, why was Skenvoy the main subject?

Why do you believe Sken is the main subject beyond meta reasons since you seem to not like using meta

Answering both questions at the same time : Right after the RVS there was a debate about Skenvoy outing for this game but then staying, followed by a theory that she could be scum because she had said that she'd like to be scum in a future game due to always being town and that this may have motivated her to stay. She commented on that and I just answered this quote :

You guys are arguing over whether Sken and Painted are buddies and focusing on Painted,

meanwhile Sken is not getting the attention she deserves.

hm. don't like this. why would focus on outing a town role? its called "scumhunting". not "townhunting". but whatevz.

You got it wrong. Read the first pages again, about the theory that Sken could be scum. I simply stated that it wasn't a solid theory because she could also have been motivated to stay in the game due to another role than scum. Nothing more to add to this.

Still not taking any stances. Oh, wow, my pressure to post vote worked, so I'll take it off, but I still won't use my vote for anything useful. Yeah, I'll answer questions, but I won't ask any of my own, nor will I offer opinions on things that matter independently. The two things that jump out to me in this post: a) the unvote without voting again, and b) the "Nothing more to add to this", when in fact there's PLENTY more to add to this.

Fennin might be scum, hmmm.

And you are posting this without any reasoning behind it?

meh. i was looking for clarification. fennin's post was a) completely irrelevant, and b) not very clear imo. irrelevant because the argument is not and never has been about deas' original vote or his reasoning. we(except you) all agreed the reasoning was weak, but logical and not scummy. why fennin addressed this at all is beyond me. but its not something worth arguing over. i was looking for clarification. its done.

If it was completely irrelevant, why asking for clarifications? and the way you asked for clarifications seems scummy. Trying to make me appear town hunting when that's never been the case.

VOTE: don_johnson

Yeah, sure, Fennin, don't clarify that vote anymore. And vote for the person attacking you? That's fine. It's okay, your posts are completely town motivated. I see that now. /sarcasm

[Skenvoy]

To clarify, I'd be voting Fennin right now if not for IS.

HoS: Fennin

[Skenvoy]

UNVOTE: InternetStranger as he's started posting.
VOTE: Fennin as he's still freaking scum.

or, if you could present the overwhelming case against Painted that would be good too Delta...

The sheer number of alarm bells Painted has raised, from the very start of the game up until now, is staggering. It's been discussed at length in this thread; in fact, the first few pages seem devoted solely to this topic. I don't know if a rehash of individual points will do anyone any good. But I am proceeding cautiously because in my experience, people may seem incredibly scummy even though they are not so. I remember in my first game on here (Newbie 1149, which you were in Slandaar) I tunneled excessively. I have a meta on other sites for playing like I'm on crack, so I've added another layer of contemplation to my analysis. I call it the Zen of Mafia.

@Don_Johnson - Do you think Painted is scum?
@Painted - What's your opinion (at this moment) of Sken?
@Sken - What's your opinion (at this moment) of Painted?

I don't think Painted's scum. In his battles of WoT with DJ, Painted's the one who's been making far more sense (the last few pages somewhat excluded, since DJ's gotten better).

@sken: can you give me a list if reads please?

Outskirts Oasis - Null. I haven't got anything from either of them. Hopefully this will change come Monday.
DeltaWave - Hm...I didn't like Monk's playing, but Delta's is okay. I do find it odd that he's got his vote on me when I'm not his top scum read, but he says he's got a reason...leaning town for now, which will change if he doesn't eventually tell me his reason (or what he wanted me to say, etc)
Internet Stranger - It's like dragging water out of a stone. He had to be really pushed to post, then had to be really pushed to read the first pages...IS, why are you so reluctant to post? That said, I don't disagree with his attack on DJ.
Guttersnipe - Town read. His points are good, and he's been posting...fairly regularly.
noramp - He seems to be afraid of taking a solid stance. By thinking I'm not scum, he could be trying to score points off my flip. He's very waffly. Scum read.
Metabot - Is this guy still here? I don't get a newb-town from him at all. Scum read.
don_johnson - Hated his earlier stuff, but he's gotten better. Leaning scum for now.
[J] - Still no read on this guy. This is one person where I'll have to see if others' cases can convince me. Null.
Fennin - SCUM. TOTALLY SCUM. I'm commenting on his last post later, but he did the same thing - unvote without putting down another target.
Deasvail - My read on him is town, but it's totally based on meta. IS has been pretty much the first one to have a scum read on him....still town, for now.
Slandaar - Town read. He's been consistent, and he's not budging from me when a) he probably wouldn't be called out for doing so, and b) there are easier targets to lynch at the moment. Actually, that goes for Deasveil as well.
Painted Face of Death - Town read. Explained previously.

Isn't it funny that of the three people who posted most are the ones I have a town read on?

I'm posting again in a second, re the latest Fennin post.

[Skenvoy]

Sorry for my absence, I’m not surprised that I may look scummy at this stage to most of you because my lack of scumhunting. But I’m surprised that there are no other votes against me. I really expected that I’d have to claim when reading today, because I only partly skimmed this thread. I’ll take time to re read everything and take part in the scumhunt.

if it was "scummy", why didn't you say so in the first place? you realize you have done nothing in this game, right?

Yes I admit but I should be more active from now on. It's my 2nd game and my #1st newbie game is still running. Pace is really different.

(4) Fennin - You reacted negatively to Slandaar saying "Fennin might be scum" in #206. From a town perspective, everyone might be scum unless there's an investigative report to the contrary. Why does this provoke a negative reaction out of you?

Because this came out of nowhere, or at least it is an accusation without any reasons with it.

UNVOTE: DJ

First sentence: So are you actually going to scumhunt? It doesn't help much to say "Oh, I see I'm scummy because I'm not scumhunting," and then continue to not scumhunt. And also "Oh, there aren't (m)any votes on me, so I can just keep cruising."

Second sentence: NEWBIE DEFENCE. Why have we not lynched this guy yet?

Third sentence: Reaction testing has been extremely common throughout this game - have you just not been reading it?

AND AGAIN, THE UNVOTE WITHOUT A VOTE! Fennin, does this mean you have NO READS AT ALL?

[Skenvoy]

@Delta: I wouldn't say it didn't generate any pressure - the multitude of votes and pressure on me actually forced me to get my arse in the game and start scumhunting. Maybe the pressure didn't work in the way you were expecting, but (at least from my perspective), it did work.

[Skenvoy]

In regards to Deasveil, this just came to me (which might make me question my read of him as well) - our meta on one another is based entirely off another site where the pace is a great deal faster, and the play is quite different as well. I might need to go back and iso him with this in mind (although, I still don't think I'll get a scum read on him...)

But Deas, that thing about me and Delta was really weird. Can you clarify what you meant?

[Skenvoy]

Delta, you're on PerC? That's what I was talking about.

[Skenvoy]

I had other people I needed to concentrate on more, and I wasn't really thinking of you. Although my town read was largely based on meta, your posts wouldn't have read particularly scummy to me were you someone else.

So, you've been aware of this the whole game? Care to tell us why you didn't mention it? As 90% of your suspicion of me is based on meta, surely it would've been relevant to mention that piece of information?

[Skenvoy]

What? I gathered from your posts that your suspicion

was

based mainly on meta - you've said several times that "My suspicion is based on meta, so I don't expect anyone else to agree with my reasons". How are you seeing my post as saying your suspicion is correct? If 90% of your reasoning is meta, why wouldn't you mention it?

[Skenvoy]

Ok, from now on I should be more active. Here are my observations:

Skenvoy voted Painted before the game even begun. When it is confirmed the game has started, switched her vote to [J]. DeasVail voted for Skenvoy by just telling he believes she is slightly more scum than the others. Painted reacted and seemed to defend Skenvoy. He didn’t hesitate to accuse others of being scum when they voted Skenvoy. As I see it, Skenvoy tried to distance herself in the RVS (that didn’t even started yet) and when Painted “defended” her, she got upset and asked to stop. Well, there is no other way for her to ask Painted to stop since scum can only communicate at night.

Then there were a lot of discussions going on about the inactives and lurkers. I feel like it was a smart way to attract attention elsewhere. Not really smart to vote for inactives since they will get replaced sooner or later. The fact I defended Skenvoy after she asked Painted to stop it triggered something interesting. Skenvoy tries to attract the attention on me.

Unfortunately, the fact that I wasn’t very much active and that my weak attack on Metabot failed makes me look scummy too, or at least not committed to the game. That should change.

So top scumreads are Skenvoy and Painted. I find DJ scummy too but that can be the way he plays this game. I have strong townreads on Deasvail and Slandaar.

VOTE: Skenvoy

First 2 paragraphs are retelling of actions in the game or rehashing of old arguments. Seriously - everything is in there. "Skenvoy was buddying in RVS" "Talking about the lurkers (which I happen to be one of) to get away attention". The part about scum communicating at night is just awful - "oh, look, I can slip in that I think Skenvoy is scum when it's really not necessary!" I've been attracting attention to you the last few pages because you're a freaking scummy lurker who still hasn't responded to ONE of my attacks.

I find it interesting that you seem to be using the fact that I find you scummy as a point against me, but then show that you know why I think you're scummy in the next paragraph. If you can see why I think you're scum, how is it scummy for me to think so?

And, wow. Your top scumreads are me and Painted, and your top townreads are Slandaar and DV. Which one of them are you taking your townreads from, I wonder?

And one more question, if you find both Painted and me equally scummy, why are you voting me? OMGUS? Why do you wait until someone has a vote on you to actually start playing the game? That reeks of scum flying under the radar until someone calls them on it.

Why are people not voting Fennin more?

Most of them are not willing to lynch a townie based on what you say. But I have to admit that I'm also surprised to not see more votes on me, due to my previous weak attack on Metabot and also due to me lurking and skimming for the past few days. You can't deny the fact that Sken and Painted have a strong link. A link that is looking pretty scummy so far. You may have asked people to take a close look at my ISO but it's Sken who insisted again.

Would make sense eh, she wouldn't tell Painted to stop defending her and not tell me, since I did the same previously.

Or her distancing would be too obvious. But it only seems obvious to the ones who are voting her, and not you.

My scum picks the same as everyone else? If that was the case, Sken would already have been lynched.

Good luck trying to attract votes on me. I think people aren't that stupid to just vote against a former inactive/lurker who is going to post more.

Okay, your point here is basically that I'm scummy because I'm going after you. How is making cases scummy? You're not making a lot of sense - IMO, making cases is a lot less scummy than pretending to make cases but actually sheeping other people's, which is what you're doing.

The bolded part, I do not understand. Actually. Could you explain it again, please?

How is voting an inactive lurker who's contributed absolutely nothing, with an incredibly scummy iso stupid?

I feel very unsure of Fennin, especially since his reads are very similar to mine, but I'm not very suspicious of him right now. I'd be most happy with a Skenvoy or Painted lynch today.

Doesn't that comfort you by knowing that someone else shares your opinions? Seriously, you were the one who triggered the Skenvoy/Painted episode. Like I said earlier, it's the only interesting content I saw in this game so far.

...have you actually read the game, because it's starting to look like you haven't - there was a big thing between me and DV and J about this kind of thing - reads aligning. To me, it either means you're a sheep or scum.

The other thing about this post? BUDDYING. It's nothing else - you say "Hooray, we share opinions, that's comforting!" and "Well done on triggering the only interesting thing in the game so far!" This post actually enforces my townread on DV, as I can't see scum buddying together like this.

@The rest of town, seriously, read Fennin's iso, read my posts about him and lynch the bugger.

[Skenvoy]

Too much to comment on and so little time. I'll be on again in around 15 hours, and I'll post my thoughts then.

[Skenvoy]

I put IS on because if he's left alive he'll probably be all like "Deas is scum!" the whole game which would be totally useless, though scum will probably kill him (if he's town) to throw suspicion on me. (In any case, he could be scum and I wouldn't mind lynching him.)

Metabot doesn't really say much at all and he is kinda scummy- so I wouldn't mind lynching him.

DJ- If he was the wagon I might actually not vote for him, as my suspicion of him has lessened.

DW- Because monk was very scummy in my opinion before replacing out and I do suspect Delta enough so that I would vote for him.

Now, what I don't get is why people suspect me. Can anyone explain how any of my actions means I'm likely to be scum?

This post is pretty much the first one I've really disliked from you, DV.

Firstly, you don't want IS alive - but not because you think he's scum, because he suspects you. That's weak OMGUS, right there.

Again, you're waffling on metabot - if either of you turns out scum, I'm looking at the other.

Also, that question at the end....gaaaah.

Couple of questions.
a) Do you think Fennin is scum?
b) Why do you refuse to consider the idea that I'm town, when 1) you admit it's mostly based on meta, and 2) that meta is from another site with a different playstyle and pace?

I put IS on because if he's left alive he'll probably be all like "Deas is scum!" the whole game which would be totally useless, though scum will probably kill him (if he's town) to throw suspicion on me. (In any case, he could be scum and I wouldn't mind lynching him.)

That comment was necessary. For what it's worth, that could be a big pile of WIFOM.

......why was that comment 'necessary'? I don't see how it is. Why did you feel the need to mention it - before anyone questioned him on it?

Also - CAN YOU ANSWER MY QUESTIONS, PLEASE? You haven't answered a single one - go back, iso me, and ANSWER MY QUESTIONS. Please.

[Skenvoy]

I was going to put this at the bottom of my post, but I forgot.

I could actually see a DV/Fennin/Metabot scumteam. Based on their play so far and their interactions.

I don't have a lot of conviction on DV as scum by himself, though. I'll just be supasuspicious of him

if

when Fennin and/or Metabot flip scum.

[Skenvoy]

@DV - You mentioned that you put IS on your list because he strongly believes you are scum and you think that he'll continue to press the issue in later days. Why is that a valid reason to vote for someone?

This is basically my point, but put more prettily. I'd like you to answer this question too, DV.

[Skenvoy]

I can't see both of you as town, because I'm sure of my scumread on you.

...and, yeah, my reads changed. I didn't realise that wasn't allowed. IS's posts do make some good points, and I've had to rethink my meta on DV because of the reasons I've already stated. It's not contradiction, it's changing of opinion. If you vote that Horse A is going to win on Monday, and then on Tuesday discover that he's got a bum leg, and therefore decide to switch your bet to Horse B, that's not contradicting yourself.

[Skenvoy]

The thing is...it doesn't look to me like people want to lynch IS because he's most likely to be scum, but for other reasons, which I think is awful strategy. At least on day 1, we should lynch who we think's most likely to be scum - DV and DJ, is IS your top scum suspect? Above Painted, and me, and Fennin, and DW? That's the question we need to answer.

[Skenvoy]

DJ, now that would be a compromise. (I'd prefer a painted/skenvoy lynch though)

As I said already, I'll join the IS wagon if it's that or no lynch or a wagon on someone I find more town, but I think give IS a couple of days and he may just stop thinking I'm scum

THIS POST. What I'm getting from it, Deas, is that you'll join the IS wagon if nothing better turns up UNLESS IS STOPS THINKING YOU'RE SCUM. So, basically that's the only reason you're voting him - not because you think he's scum?

Slandaar's case is terrible.

It's almost as if, now that I'm no longer to be lynched in the next few hours, they're flopping around trying to start new wagons.

One thing I've noticed - Fennin is on a LOT of people's scum list - even people with mainly opposing views. With that in mind,

why not lynch him?

While we're talking about compromises, that one seems to be the best.

[Skenvoy]

EBWOP: By "they're" I mean Slandaar and DJ.

[Skenvoy]

DV, do you have a townread or a nullread on Fennin?

[Skenvoy]

Jesus, DV, don't you have a single read that isn't influenced by me being scum? What happens when I flip town? How will your reads change?

[Skenvoy]

DV - why do you think I still suspect Painted? In my list of reads, I clearly said that I think he's town, based on reasoning from my readthrough. I haven't mentioned him since then because I've been focused on Fennin. Why do you think I still think he's scum?

[Skenvoy]

So...you missed my entire reads post?

[Skenvoy]

Did you?

[Skenvoy]

...actually, I just wanted to know if you'd read it. It was the first time in the game where I really solidified my reads to any extent. Why did you want to know what I wanted to gain from it?

[Skenvoy]

I don't want to compromise on DW: I'm not at all convinced he's scum. I want to lynch Fennin, which, when you look at it, is a far, far better compromise, considering

not ONE person has posted a town read on him

(unless I missed it or something). If someone has a townread on Fennin, or if someone thinks he isn't scum, please come forward with it now.

[Skenvoy]

And, if nobody thinks he isn't scum, surely he's the best lynch for today?

[Skenvoy]

*blink* How is that a useless question? I wanted to know if you'd seen my list of reads - I thought it was actually fairly important, because (as I said above) it was the first way I solidified them in any form.

Also, I had good reason to ask the question, as you apparently thought I still had a scumread on Painted, when I'd stated clearly that I hadn't.

[Skenvoy]

@noramp - My 'stop defending me tirade' succeeded in its intention - Painted stopped defending me afterwards. I stopped viewing Painted as scummy after my reread of the first 10 pages or so - if I remember correctly, the point where I start thinking of him as town is actually reached during the middle of a post.

As I've said before, I think that I should be allowed to change my reads - while I think it's scummy to be

constantly

changing votes and reads, I don't think the simple fact that I have a town read on Painted at the moment, when previously I had a scumread on him, is enough to declare me scum.

That said, I agree with your stance on DJ. What do you think of Fennin?

[Skenvoy]

Why don't you think Fennin is scum? According to your iso, this is pretty much the first time you've said that - and up till now you've said you'll support a lynch on him. What changed?

[Skenvoy]

Fennin
Metabot

Then...maybe...

DJ
noramp
Oasis

I'd vote for the first two happily, and for the last three if push came to shove.

Gah...I'm really getting unsure about DV. I'm not seeing his recent posts as town at all. I don't have a scum read on him yet, but he's not a town read at the moment.

[Skenvoy]

Care to explain why I'm becoming increasingly scummier?

Also, DV, if you weren't sure if you or I should go in Slandaar's last spot, you should've put both of us, rather than letting your bias (towards yourself) influence the list.

[Skenvoy]

Actually, looking over your list again, I'm going to completely ignore it - no offence. I think we should wait for everyone (or most people) to post specifically regarding who they would be okay with lynching, rather than allowing you to go back through their posts and deciding on their behalf.

For example, on Guttersnipe's list, you ignored him suspecting Fennin and Delta - why?

PEdit - you started off by presenting your list as an objective method for counting suspects, then you say 'I'll choose the option that doesn't get me lynched'?

[Skenvoy]

Even if I missed that, the way you presented it makes it look objective.

Why do you think you have the right to 'decide on everyone's suspects'? And you still haven't answered my question about Guttersnipe's suspect list.

[Skenvoy]

-_-

[Skenvoy]

Actually, how the hell is that possible? You evidently saw my suspect list, but you didn't see Guttersnipe's which was the post before mine?

[Skenvoy]

@Guttersnipe: Don't bother, he'll just edit himself out of your list of suspects.

[Skenvoy]

@DV: Wouldn't you have got a preview before you posted your list?

[Skenvoy]

Mod, can we get a prod on Oasis? I don't think he's posted for four days.

[Skenvoy]

*sigh* So, you've said
"I didn't see your posts."

And
"Actually, I did see them, but couldn't be bothered to amend my own post to include the new information, which is

the reason we have previews in the first place

.

@DV, just because you point out that what you've done is scummy, doesn't make it any less scummy. I'm adding him to my lynch pool, removing Oasis and DJ.

Looking like this: Fennin, Metabot, DV, noramp.

In that order.

PEdit: Wow, a heap of posts. I pretty much agree with what Gutter's said about DV. Noramp, you were scum in my list of reads a few pages back, and since then I haven't really commented on anyone apart from Fennin and people I've directly interacted with, because I've been trying to get a lynch on my number 1 scum suspect.

And actually, you were in my top 5 - along with DJ and Oasis, you were people I'd vote for if I had to, but weren't my top priority.

[Skenvoy]

Wait, what? You just said that you saw mine and Gutter's posts in the preview, but didn't change your post or comment on our's for whatever reason, and then you come around and say you didn't see them at all?

Well, let's see. Your most obvious 'manipulation' (not my word) was that you decided to put me down on Slandaar's list instead of you because you'll always choose the option that doesn't get you lynched.

[Skenvoy]

I'm keeping my vote on Fennin for now.

If it comes to deadline and someone else is far closer to being lynched, I'll change my vote to avoid a no lynch.

[Skenvoy]

Are neighbourhoods completely random? I mean, not just with the people in them, but also the roles?

[Skenvoy]

I was asking not what roles are usually neighbours, but if neighbours are randomised between roles. I guess, what I'm saying is that if the latter is true, then Noramp's claim doesn't help us any more than say...going

Original Roll String: 3d13

3 13-Sided Dice: (3, 1, 4) = 8

[Skenvoy]

And saying that it's therefore likely that there's one scum among Oasis (1), IS (3) and Guttersnipe (4), so everyone should vote for who they find scummiest in that bunch.

[Skenvoy]

And the thing is, because we have no way of knowing, I don't believe this should put any more suspicion on the neighbours simply because they're neighbours.

[Skenvoy]

It seemed to be fairly obvious what Painted was saying - that noramp wasn't scummy for being a neighbour, but more scummy for outing that he was a neighbour. Slandaar - why did you think Painted was saying the former rather than the latter?

noramp, why did you claim in the first place?

[Skenvoy]

How long do we have till deadline?

[Skenvoy]

It's almost as if the town's been rent in two. On one side, there's Slandaar, DJ and DV, on the other there's IS, Painted and DW. With a whole bunch of lurkers who don't really fit anywhere.

I have to say that the second side makes more sense to me, but I'm not convinced anyone's scum.

And I don't care if I'm sitting on my vote, I'm not changing it, because CG isn't any better than Fennin. I'd far prefer a CG lynch to anyone on the two teams.

[Skenvoy]

*blink* I am. Why do you think I'm not?

[Skenvoy]

Ah. I was talking about the two 'teams' when I said that (which have just been broken up by you...not sure what to think about that...)

[Skenvoy]

Lolwhat? I wasn't saying "This group of people are scum, and this group are town", I was saying "This group of people keep going head to head with this group". Learn to read, please. I'm tired of you constantly misrepping me.

[Skenvoy]

Dude, you're not even voting me! If you want a lynch, at least back it up with a vote.

[Skenvoy]

Metabot is at L-2, right?

[Skenvoy]

*sigh* Children, children.

CG - scum, still scum. Is probably hoping for a fast lynch so he can talk to his buddies before he really has to contribute.
Painted - the relief he showed at not being lynched still felt town to me - I think scum would be more cautious.
Metabot - like others, I'd prefer a lynch to a no lynch, and we can't seem to agree on anyone else. Metabot isn't reading the game, and quite frankly, it's unlikely he's going to start. Added to that, I don't think he's town.

[Skenvoy]

Hm...that is a good point about CG. Not enough to convince me he's town, though.

[Skenvoy]

Especially as that wagon's really caught fire. If it hadn't, it would have been easy enough for him to switch back over.

Slandaar, why were you all "People must vote metabot" when you weren't voting him yourself? It would've been easy enough for you to switch back to Painted to avoid a no lynch, in the case of nobody voting Metabot.

[Skenvoy]

I didnt know when deadline was so 'impossible to know when to change vote back' might be better suited.

Okay. That's fair.

[Skenvoy]

Thanks for that, it makes it a lot easier to read.

[Skenvoy]

Guttersnipe - what's changed? Yesterday, you were also okay with a Fennin, DW or DV lynch - why remove them now?

CG - Guttersnipe I have a town read on. Slandaar and DJ...used to have a town read on Slandaar, but that's been slipping. I'm not sure at all about DJ. I'd support his lynch.

[Skenvoy]

Outskirts Oasis - Null, hasn't said enough.
DeltaWave - Leaning town.
Internet Stranger - Leaning town.
Guttersnipe - Leaning town.
don_johnson - Leaning scum.
[J] - Leaning town.
Captain Greypatch - Scum.
Deasvail - Null (I've seen both scum and town play from him.)
Slandaar - Leaning...scum? Maybe? Actually, null, probably.
Painted Face of Death - Leaning town.

Top read, CG, followed by people who are null...leaning scum...who are sort of in a bunch. And screw it, I'm not giving explanations, because I've already explained myself more than half the people in this game and I can't be bothered.

[Skenvoy]

Jesus, I made about 5 different cases on Fennin - then you replaced into that slot - there was nothing to make a proper case of since you'd hardly posted at that point. Hell, I can't be bothered anymore, just freaking lynch me, cause it's obvious that town isn't going to get anywhere with me around.

[Skenvoy]

CG - why comment on my tunnelling of you/Fennin, but not on DV's/Slandaar's tunnelling of me?

[Skenvoy]

Jesus, I made about 5 different cases on Fennin - then you replaced into that slot - there was nothing to make a proper case of since

you'd hardly posted at that point

. Hell, I can't be bothered anymore, just freaking lynch me, cause it's obvious that town isn't going to get anywhere with me around.

Neither had Fennin.

CG - why comment on my tunnelling of you/Fennin, but not on DV's/Slandaar's tunnelling of me?

Slandaar has pushed for your lynch but he has gone after other people. I'll re-read Deasvails posts(tomorrow) before fully answering your question, but I thought he had other suspects.

My vote was more because of your double standards(it's more scummy when I do it, even when I don't do it

) than your tunnelling.

Elaborate? Okay, I'll give you the tunnelling. Fennin had posted enough by then for me to have a scum read on him.

[Skenvoy]

Claim: VT

Looool, I can't wait to see your faces when I flip town. Just waiting for the hammer now.

[Skenvoy]

I've already posted all my thoughts. And to be honest, I don't think this one's going to fizzle - you guys have been on my back since the first post, literally. I'm tired of it now, this game hasn't been fun.

And to anyone who says I'm playing against my win con, I'm really not, cause the town's going nowhere while I'm around - most of you want me dead, and scum reads are being chosen on the assumption I'm also scum - when I flip town, it'll clear a lot up and allow some proper scumhunting to happen.