Open 455 - Tit for Tat - OVER

[Cheery Dog]

VOTE: Klick

I don't trust your gambits, and therefore I will have to assume you are scum for doing hits.

VOTE: klick

[Cheery Dog]

Tell me, what of my meta have you read?

Mico 32 where you did a weird gambit and cost the game in 2 pages.
and some other games which I never read fully, though I think you might have actually been town in those as well, but I'm not going to let that slip into making you town this game.

[Cheery Dog]

So what made me scum? I fail to see how you came to that conclusion.

(By the way, there's a difference between a gambit and a coin toss. Micro 32 was the latter, this was neither.)

I am making an assumption, and that means I don't know if I am correct at calling you scum or not, but for now you are currently my highest bet as to being scum.

[Cheery Dog]

Cheery, assumptions are based on

something

.

yes and that was that I don't trust your gambits.

@Disturbed, he is still playing a gambit, but there is a possiblity it's a town-gamibt, not all gambits come from scum.
At this stage I am just assuming it has come from scum, but that's not necessary true, and I will have to see if anything else develops.

[Cheery Dog]

Let me see
Gambit:
1 a kind of opening move in chess
2. an action or remark intented to gain an advantage

(I should stop putting dictionaries on my desk, it makes it too easy to know meanings)

I believe this site's meta has it that most people that selfvote the start of their own wagon are town, and therefore I don't trust it because people can fake do that as scum. - this would be it being a scum gambit.
It could also be a town gambit, because getting out of RVS early is getting the advantage to town.

Your posts have started to indicate the second option, and my assumption as to which kind it was is now out of date.
UNVOTE:

[Cheery Dog]

So you don't have any thoughts about the discussion that has been happening?

[Cheery Dog]

You're sure it doesn't include the 2 (guille & nekoko) that are yet to post?

[Cheery Dog]

Why should she be looked at right now?

[Cheery Dog]

VOTE: NumberQ

Just reread though the game a bit, and he is currently be the furthest away from the town side of my scum radar.

Klick & A_Potato are currently the furthest into the town side if people want to know that, the rest are a big spangled mess somewhere in the middle.

[Cheery Dog]

@Cheery Dog:
...Right. What do you think of guille and HerrRudi? Why is A_Potato so clearly a town read in your opinion?

guille has one post so far, and I don't see anything bad about that, how I fully feel will have to wait until he posts more, but at the moment he is very much null.
HerrRudi started bad by not looking at page numbers, but other than that they have been posting well.
Potato is town because besides the switch on me not making much sense when he never actually labelled anyone as town at first and then said that he had forgotten to say I was town, I feel he has a town attitude coming in, and it probably is just gut at the moment, I think it is mostly the list of suspects that he has given which are making me say he is that high on the town scale.

[Cheery Dog]

This isn't a 3 player game you know, how about the whole town hunts the scum?

[Cheery Dog]

Vote: Nekoko

I don't recall you flipping your vote around this much from our first game on this site. This game you appea to be doing to much, and it has now increased my suspicions of you.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Disturbed

[Cheery Dog]

To honestly vote based on that, I think you should look into some of my other games. I have purposefully changed my game up a bit, for example one thing I do is try to be more aggressive lately. Because in the first game, I wasn't exactly in a position to be that aggressive.

You didn't switch your vote around in those much either.
I don't know about the whole playstyle bit (because I know mine has also changed in some points), but your vote change frequency here is lloking to be like you're trying to find a wagon to join, none except your RVS vote of me, have been by your own sole reasons.

[Cheery Dog]

How did he act in your first game? How long ago was it?

Passively, and I think it was about 3 months ago.
But the main reason for my vote is the wagon switching.

[Cheery Dog]

What my problem with it is the reason you've just given fro your vote on nekoko, and that's practically what you're doing however over multiple posts with all your vote switches.

Nekoko:
Scum. Is pointing a bunch of fingers at different players, which is obviously a scum move to divert attention from herself.

@Rudi, yes, those are also pretty much my thoughts on him.

[Cheery Dog]

Pinpointed my weird vibe from Cheery.

His posts 102 and 105 were extremely vague, and amounted to "I think this person is this alignment because." Which is a fairly scummy thing to do, saying you're suspicious of people but not giving any real reasons so as to not accidentally contradict yourself later.

That's my normal gameplay, it's there because I haven't learnt to get rid of my paranoia about possibility being wrong.
Based on my scumplay offsite (though they have crap games and easy to fool players), I'm actually a lot more definite about my reads when I'm scum.

[Cheery Dog]

I'll vote Nekoko when I catch up on this game.

Why not do it now?

[Cheery Dog]

Also, getting a town vibe from Klick for discussing fakeclaim procedures.

also MoI?
or do you still have your read of CE overruling it?

[Cheery Dog]

lately I've gotten better at finding scum, enabling me to call out the scumteam in the 48th post in one of my games.

This post here? http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p4296019
Which was a 7 player game, with a scum team of two, I expected better than this when I just searched for that, you had a third option there, which meant that it was half the other players.

You know I can pull stuff out my arse mentioning half of the players that aren't me and call them probable scum.

[Cheery Dog]

After reviewing MoI's claim ideals, the only problem I see with that style may be a fake-JK claim where we haven't got rid of the scum-backup JK yet, which would mean we would be losing a PR and giving one to the scum team which could stop our other PR(s) from working, but otherwsie I am in agreeance with how any claims should be made.

[Cheery Dog]

Well hopefully we'll get rid of the backup JK and not force the town one to claim unless they need to (such as one scum left)

[Cheery Dog]

I think we need more walls. <_<

So besides having to read (which you have to do in every game), what is making this game demotivating?

[Cheery Dog]

Note: A game just finished in which I self-voted in RVS to start discussion as scum. Just thought that should be clear.

That saves me having to bring that up after just watching that game end. (and I had you figured as scum that game from your post before the town crossvoted each other - didn't read much of the rest of that though so that didn't effect my vote on you on page 1) The fact you revealed it strengths my town read on you slightly.

As for Disturbed, I just went back to the game I played with him to remember why I had him as my biggest townread that game, and he does seem to have gone into the style of posting I can recognise from him now.
However my vote is going to stay for the moment, dependant on what bitmap does with that numberQ slot and other players actions. (mostly Nekoko, guille and Mhork as they're currently the others which are furtherest leaning into the scum side.)

[Cheery Dog]

He's not voting them because he is?

L-4 Nekoko - Venmar,

Disturbed_One

, Shamrock

VOTE: Lord Mhork

[Cheery Dog]

I just don't like that he's asking for explanations on everything, especially those things that are obvious. Such as asking for why townreads exist when quite a few other players have said the same thing regarding that one player. The only one I see that was worthwhile possibly asking was that of Nekoko, why I had him as one of my scumreads before the recent string of posts I'm not actually entirely sure, though something must of twinged somewhere. I can't find what it was looking back over his ISO

I'm surprised it wasn't him asking why I was voting for him though, which I think may actually strengthen my read of him slightly.

[Cheery Dog]

That was included in my first line of reasoning, though I guess I could have explained it slightly better. But then again not knowing where someone elses vote is isn't actually that scummy, rather bad play.

I just don't like that he's asking for explanations on everything, especially those things that are obvious

[Cheery Dog]

Obvious to anyone who has been keeping up with the game.
I'm not saying I've never missed a vote (as I'm fairly sure I have), but I do go and double check the votecount before accusing someone of not having their vote where their posts are saying it should be
(and I have missed votes, I wasn't aware of a selfvote being removed here and quoted a post that happened while the self vote was on and then applied it to the votecount that happened over the page)

[Cheery Dog]

Case on Mhork isn't bad, but I get the feeling he's town. Can't really describe it, I guess it's just a gut feeling.

I guess I overreacted to you missing it, and have since withdrawn it. (it was part of that first line, but then you questioned it, and I realised it had nothing to do with anything, hence the part where I called it bad play).

Including it in my reasoning was also bad play on my part, however it wasn't the grunt of the reasoning

[Cheery Dog]

Oops I meant to press preview after I decided to respond to Disturbed Post while typing that but accidentally pressed submit.
please ignore the quote since it doesn't related to what it was meant to say. (writing underneath that quote was in relation to Mhork's 283)
(and sorry for whoever ninjas me while I'm still using this new post)
The rest of this post is in relation to that quote.

@Disturbed Are you going to grab ahold of every case of someone being scum?

[Cheery Dog]

He is also 'demotivated', so he may be playing different to his meta because of that.
(also that he replaced out of a lot of other games because of that reason)

[Cheery Dog]

Just trying to work out why you have chosen that vote..

As for Klick, I can't really nail the feeling but I have scum vibes from him. He hasn't contributed much and scum usually tends to ask the question "Why?" a lot which is what he's been doing.

Where has Klick asked why?

[Cheery Dog]

I found one mention of the word 'why' posted by Klick in his ISO, and it was about the case by case claiming schemes.

I am now feeling that you and Mhork are possible buddies since you've got reasons for him being scum listed down for somebody else.

[Cheery Dog]

Do people seriously not know how to read this game?

since you've got reasons for him being scum listed down for somebody else.

[Cheery Dog]

By putting reasoning for someone's scumminess down as the same as someone else who is doing the same thing you're accusing person one of doing yet having completely different opinions of what those people's alignment is

[Cheery Dog]

Yeah, but the rest of your case is still real weak. Seriously it just boils down to ask questions. You've dropped the other two points already anyway, that is that I missed you voting me and that I lost Disturbed's vote. Basically you don't like my playstyle and that makes me scum, yeah?

I find nothing wrong with your playstyle.
What I do find wrong is your one word questions, which to me are telling me you're trying to look like you're hunting alignments by asking questions, however not putting any thought into the questions because you already know everyone's alignment.

[Cheery Dog]

These.

There's no real town motivation to buddy in this manner,

not when Om has done little to nothing this game.

You blind mate?

Nope. You?

Why

Alright. I guess all I have to add right now is that I'm cool with Nekoko or nQ/Bitmap for lynch today.

Why?

[Cheery Dog]

Well one of those was a sarcastic response to a sarcastic question and I'm not exactly sure how I could have lengthened those whys... In fact I'm not really sure why I should have. Wouldn't needless fluff have been distracting and anti town?

It would help me know what the actual information you wanted from asking them.

[Cheery Dog]

Ah. That makes more sense. But what do you suggest when all I really want to know is why? No other fluff involved? Like when someone says that a person moved up to a solid town read. No why--nothing. I don't get why fluff would help there. What else would you know about my motives?

I'd like to see why you think they might not be town when asking for reasons why they are town from other people, especially asking people that you had listed as town reads yourself as last count.

[Cheery Dog]

First all of I didn't find NumberQ (the player he replaced) scummy.
Only Disturbed_One was suspicious of NumberQ (because well he voted him)
and MoI. After MoI has said NumberQ and by extension Bitmap is suspicious,
people started to suspect him.

Care to read the thread again? I can't find any votes of NQ by Disturbed.

I think I was the first to seriously vote him, though it didn't really stay on long.

[Cheery Dog]

Who are your scum reads at this point Cheery?

People I currently have as possible scum are Mhork, Bitmap, Nekoko and guille.

Pedit: Klick has just got himself moved into next in line.

[Cheery Dog]

I wouldn't think PMysterious would actually be that much of a problem to any scum team he is in, it seems that he has got quite a few scum wins recently

@sham I think moi is more referring to 299 (I'm not going to type the bb code while on my phone)
To me it looks like he was just mimicing the general town views

[Cheery Dog]

Vig should kill MoI because I can't read the fucker, I want to trust him but I can't. Just make it simpler for me.

Sorry i'm kind of falling behind, I'll post more later.

I don't think this would be a good night 1 choice for the vig shot, if MoI is town then we will be able to use his early reads well and they should be available for multiple days unless circumstances require it to be otherwise.

[Cheery Dog]

Suspicious
Venmar - this guy is definitely tunneling me. I haven't seen him scum hunt and it looks like he's not even trying.

What he has basically done so far:
1. Tunneled me
2. Commented on Klick's self-vote
3. Commented on nQ's flaking
4. MoI is null and his excuse is his posts are long
5. Commented on "Defending the VI"

He's probably comfortable that he's under the radar of most people

This reads to me like an elongated OMGUS vote.

Are you trying to do long posts so that he'll end up null on you as well?

[Cheery Dog]

My phone decided to cut the connection, so the explanation of out will have to wait until I can be bothered typing it out again but basically it's just how I read your post.
it being elongated means that the omgus part was hidden behind a bad looking case
UNVOTE:

[Cheery Dog]

Not voting: guille2015, Cheery Dog

Deadline in 3 days, 6 hours, 4 minutes.

This is wrong and needs to be corrected ASAP.

And I don't mean the Deadline count for you smart-asses out there ...

I swear someone always points out that I have no vote in action everytime I unvote to think about the new placement of a vote.

Well actually I think I probably would have done this last night had I not got frustrated at my phone putting the vote tags in weird places.
VOTE: Nekoko

[Cheery Dog]

1. Tunneled me
2. Commented on Klick's self-vote
3. Commented on nQ's flaking
4. MoI is null and his excuse is his posts are long
5. Commented on "Defending the VI"

Ok now that I'm at a computer and remembered that I was going to do this, I will explain why I see your vote as OMGUS.

1. People tunnelling others is done by members of both alignments, null tell.
2/3/5. How are commenting on matters related to the game scumtells?
4. I don't see how this means anything either, but listed it here in a wall is telling me that you are writing long posts in the hope that venmar will then move you to his null pile as that's why you believe he as MoI there.

While I don't have venmar on my townreads list, I don't find anything to be needing voted today from his posts.

[Cheery Dog]

What if Klick and MoI are a scumteam?

then we lynch them both duh

[Cheery Dog]

I'd like to see them be able to progress with their 1 v 1 tomorrow, I don't have a definite read on either of them, and them having a 1 v 1 (while still looking out at everyone else in the game) might be able to help be indentify their alignments better.
MoI is currently leading the race, but I'm still not convinced.

[Cheery Dog]

I don't want to be lynching either of them today, I will possibly look through their ISOs during the night, but my reads aren't likely to change anyway.
(by tomorrow I mean Day 2 btw)
My vote is remaining on Nekoko unless I need to be changing it to bitmap - today's lynch is one of these two.

[Cheery Dog]

I'm voting because I am seeing weak reads coming from Nekoko.
For example where they voted venmar, the listed information is that he was tunnelling and has only commented in a few spots.
I'm listed as a town read for commenting on what I see; which because venmar has been less active he hasn't be there when a lot of this stuff is posted. It appears to me that he has also been commenting on what he sees.

There is no big wall case because I can't be bothered typing and multiquoting one out. (I did one in a recently finished newbie game and it mostly got ignored so I'm disheartened from it)

[Cheery Dog]

obvious bitmap must be SK here as well then.

Klick

are you going to leave your vote on yourself?

I'm tempted to maybe actually go there now

[Cheery Dog]

If there are any power roles hidden amongst the apperently 3 options we have for todays lynch, I suggest they claim to avoid being the lynch on the deadline.

[Cheery Dog]

I thought tHree new pages would have meant we had more content to work with, but it appears not.
You're not going to convince me to change wagons by telling people to bus or whatever the heck you're doing.

And no I will not be quick lynching MoI tomorrow if we lynch klick today and he flips town.

[Cheery Dog]

To get MoI lynched afterward.

How about we actually lynch scum instead of two people that don't like the face of each other?

[Cheery Dog]

To get MoI lynched afterward.

How about we actually lynch scum instead of two people that don't like the face of each other?

Are klick and MoI town?

There's a possibility. I don't know what they are until they flip or they are confirmed in some other manner.

I'm not convinced either of them are scum at this stage, but Klick is doing a lot of different gambits, he is the more likely scum out of the two if one of them is scum.

[Cheery Dog]

Links?

[Cheery Dog]

That doesn't convince me that MoI is scum.
I see you managed to help lose the game with that maneovue.

(why the fuck would I be wanting to say "Romanesque" you stupid spell check?)

[Cheery Dog]

I have never seen a town selfvote. From what I've seen scum do it to try to make people think they are townies who know their death doesn't mean their team will lose.

I can give you one I did http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p4352057
and here is one by Thor http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p4382398 (although in this one has the game as pretty much everyone being jesters)

I do admit I knew I wasn't going to get me lynched when I self voted there, however it stayed there until the end of the day. (because someone else hammered before I could but meh)

[Cheery Dog]

Hey klick, according to director's post you should come in here and unvote so that you'll be scum with no exceptions.

ohwait I ruined it by posting to tell you this.

Apparently I'm scum now, what are you going to do?

[Cheery Dog]

I forgot I also came in here to this.

UNVOTE: nekoko
VOTE: Bitmap

[Cheery Dog]

Yet you're the one dying when I announce that I'm sick of this day and do this.
VOTE: klick

[Cheery Dog]

UNVOTE:

[Cheery Dog]

I'd like to see them be able to progress with their 1 v 1 tomorrow, I don't have a definite read on either of them, and them having a 1 v 1 (while still looking out at everyone else in the game) might be able to help be indentify their alignments better.
MoI is currently leading the race, but I'm still not convinced.

This post moves Cheery from my Town reads to a Null read. On a gut level this reads as something I would expect scum to post (encouraging the 1 v 1 without committing to a read on either player).

I don't want to be lynching either of them today, I will possibly look through their ISOs during the night,

but my reads aren't likely to change anyway.

The bolded is suspect. You just said you didn’t have a ‘definitive read’ on either of us. Why don’t you see your reads changing with review overnight and a flip to work with when you don’t have a solid read now?

While non-definite reads, you were both null-leaning town - and I felt that there was a chance I was reading you both wrongly. (the 1-1 had focused my mind into the present and I had been forgetting why I was reading you both as town)
I voted Klick and then unvoted him during the last few hours of yesterday because it was quite probable that we weren't going to get bitmap lynched, and then I realised that I was in fact not sick of the day at that stage. (however I was waiting to see what was going to happen as to whether I should have been voting bitmap again or leaving my vote off) I saw Klick as town around there and I realised that I'd rather not lynch townreads.
My unvote of Nekoko happened because I wasn't liking the director's posts, and given that was the slot that Nekoko had been targeting, I thought there may have been some worth in it.

Why I wanted the 1v1 to continue into today is because I wasn't going to be following through with it on the death of one of the contestants yesterday, and I unless you do something obvscummy today I probably will continue with not going through with it today.

[Cheery Dog]

Please explain how you not liking Director’s posts made you change your opinion on Nekoko. Because scum do bus / distance. What did you ‘not like’ about the Director that indicated scum?

They just read as bad. I don't see how town would come in and declare an obvscum and then give out a team of the most suspicious players that had been mentioned. (although it did somehow exclude Nekoko)

Venmar was the first person to vote Nekoko, and seeing as she wasn't being looked at before his post, and there would have been a great many town choices to start a wagon on, I don't see him choosing to bus.

If we don't hit scum with the l;ynch today, I believe the vig shouldn't shoot.

[Cheery Dog]

By the way all town PRs should claim and we wait for counter claims. That is all.

Why should be have them claim and expose themselves to the mafia kill tonight?
Have them claim tomorrow and not have the vig take a shot tonight would be better in my opinion. (especially if we end up mislynching again today)

@Mod, if we get to 3v3 with both the jailkeeper and the vig alive, does the game continue going?

[Cheery Dog]

If you think you're town, you wouldn't want to waste the town's vote on you.

You only think you're town, what? If you're town, then you would

know

you're town.

My read on Venmar's slot has changed.
Venmar must be really unmotivated to replace out here
which explains why I think he's not really scum hunting
(focused on me entirely or something - easy to do)

Your last given read on venmar's slot was scum, and it's remained unchanged here, yet you're voting the same person as it's new occupant is voting?

VOTE: Nekoko

I believe this is L-1

[Cheery Dog]

Yes, knowing and thinking are completely different things.

but the other point is correct, I somehow placed the "un" at the start of changed.

I'll put you back to L-2 since I had misread that sentence, and I don't really want the possibility of a lynch going through two pages into day 2.

UNVOTE:

[Cheery Dog]

@MoI; I asked the question, as I believe that's why we shouldn't have the JK claim yet.
as for my read of director, I had a look over them during the night and they seemed less scummy.

My guess to the team at the moment is nekoko, mhork and possibly potato. although there is a chance director may be part of it still - I'm not completely sure.

[Cheery Dog]

Kinda pissed that Magna is town because his posting not only has the town freaked, but his long posts are screwing up the reads for everyone.

Which reads have been screwed because of MoI's long posts?
Given that he is now practically confirmed town (he isn't fully confirmed yet as potato hasn't posted since the claim), that's actually cleared one of the harder to read slots.

How is one person's posting even capable of screwing reads for everyone else?

[Cheery Dog]

(he isn't fully confirmed yet as potato hasn't posted since the claim)

post

Do you have anything else to say about the game?

[Cheery Dog]

How can you possibly think that is the team? There is no way, after a Day 1 mislynch and two NKs on Town players, that two scum are just going to bandwagon Day 2 onto their partner after the way they avoided her Day 1. It isn’t going to earn them any Town cred given they could have lynched her Day 1 but avoided that wagon like the plague.

I'm not really that sure on the third member, but that is a good point, so I guess I'll slip director in instead of mhork, although I listed mhork and potato around the other way before (as potato being the the possible third member), he thinking of replacing out tells me it is more likely a scum potato.
VOTE: director

Otherwise

intent to hammer Nekoko

also if either of those possible vig shots have something to claim they probably should depending on whether the vig wants that shot.

[Cheery Dog]

Thanks for outing yourself as the other scum.

However, I'm going to assume t that means disturbed was actually the kill target, which is what I was aiming for by jailing him . I'll jail him again tonight if we want to make sure.

Yes I'm counter claiming jail keeper.

Jailed the director night 1, which is why I had a mind change about him and never actually said anything day 1 hoping that if he were scum he'd feel good about being able to submit the kill. My mind changed again after I tried to work out who the buddies were.

[Cheery Dog]

Night 1 jailing was because of the bad posting director was doing during the day, in the chance he was scum, I felt he was most likely to have submitted the kill since the only suspicion put on him was from nekoko, and that wasn't very good suspicion.

Night 2 I choose disturbed because I didn't want to stop Mo

[Cheery Dog]

Accidentally pressed the submit button early

I didn't want to stop MoI from being able to use the role cop, didn't want to be stopping the vig shot going through, yet wanted to stop the mafia kill. I figured the mafia kill would be coming from the person being vigged of they were mafia. so I went with who I felt the kill would be most likely to be on besides the confirmed town which I didn't want to role block.

I tried to look at why grey was killed, and decided out probably wasn't because of his suspicions which weren't very strong - his slot however was in klick's do not kill ever list, so I went and looked at that for possible night 2 targets and found myself and disturbed on said list, thus since I can't jail myself I jailed the other person on that list.

[Cheery Dog]

Well now we know the vig is one of shamrock/potato (which was pretty obvious with that nightkill and who was jailed) and I'll be jailing one of you tonight, so knowing who the vig is would actually stop me from stopping a kill going through. (unless guille flips back-up JK and then there's a chance of mhork needing jailed) Of course there is still disturbed who I may jail again if it's felt that guille may have outed his partner by claiming to have roleblocked them.

I was the only person yesterday who said anything about why the JK (aka myself) shouldn't have claimed yesterday, guille appears to have been for the JK claiming yesterday, so the question is why didn't he claim yesterday?

p-edits

By the way,

I didn't want to stop MoI from being able to use the role cop, didn't want to be stopping the vig shot going through, yet wanted to stop the mafia kill. I figured the mafia kill would be coming from the person being vigged of they were mafia. so I went with who I felt the kill would be most likely to be on besides the confirmed town which I didn't want to role block.

I tried to look at why grey was killed, and decided out probably wasn't because of his suspicions which weren't very strong - his slot however was in klick's do not kill ever list, so I went and looked at that for possible night 2 targets and found myself and disturbed on said list, thus since I can't jail myself I jailed the other person on that list.

This doesn't really make any sense. I'd be pretty surprised if the scum targeted anyone other than MoI last night.

I mean, I guess there's the WIFOM of "what if the JK decided to block him because he's conftown and the obvious kill target".

But I think it's very weird that, if you are indeed the JK, you would approach this Night from the perspective of trying to protect the target rather than block the kill itself.

Please explain how I was meant to block, when the person I assumed would be taking the shot was being vigged (aka dying) the same the night where if I had jailed would have stopped the vig shot going throuigh.

[Cheery Dog]

I believe that grey was the mafia kill because bitmap was suspected the previous day, I don't see mafia killing someone happily suspected the previous day and would be an easy wagon to set up asa counter wagon to their role cop again day 2.
There is also a post at the start of day 2 where I believe bitmap might have been soft claimed as the vig's target.

[Cheery Dog]

Disturbed must be scum unless for some reason scum jk is ccing real jk and I doubt that.

How does this work?

and now that my guess at the vig was wrong, I will have to take potato's post at the start of day 2 to mean that he was upset that bitmap wasn't available for mislynch yesterday.
I still believe that I used my power to protect disturbed, but I've got no problem with lynching him today if that's what the rest of the town decides.

Also the fact that Om likes to replace out of scum games leads me to believe since he is not the vig, the slot is probably scum.

[Cheery Dog]

The Jailkeeper will JK either the Vig or myself. There is no point WIFOMING which member of the scum team will make the kill. And the scums can't kill the remaining VT (the member in the VT pool is PoEd automatically) or the Town Jailkeeper (this dooms the counter-claimer). So they have to shoot either myself or the Vig.

So I have to WIFOM which one of you or the vig is going to be the target instead of the night kill?
I think I'd rather attempt to WIFOM with the scum that is making the kill. (although I guess that is a 1/3 shot instead 1/2) This means if I choose correctly, then if you were the target of the kill you would still get a result, if I'm saving you by blocking you then you won't get the result that clears me.
I am aware that this is different to my attitude last night, however since sham won't be shooting anyway, if I'm agreeing to someone being scum, they won't be getting vigged, and therefore won't have to assume they're going to be the one that will take the killing shot.

[Cheery Dog]

My reasoning why Disturbed would be town, was because I didn't see why guille who is now confirmed scum to me would have placed out his buddy and got himself into the postion where he would be counterclaimed.
Yes, it is a possible WIFOM move by him, since he is fakeclaiming the town JK which already put WIFOM in play by forcing me to claim (although I still would have given that I targeted Disturbed) This would mean I reacted exactly how scum guille would have wanted me to, but I see it as way too high a risk. If Disturbed is scum, then the kill was probably directed at MoI.

What I gave was my reasoning prior to the night, when I had thought the director was scum again. I'm not going to have changed my mind on why I performed the actions I performed after I had new evidence which meant my thought process was wrong, I can't change thoughts I've had in the past.

[Cheery Dog]

I forget after getting power roles that I may want to crumb stuff, however I guess where I have argued about when the jailkeeper should be claiming could be technically called crumbs as I, as the JK, have a highest opinion on when I should claim.

Spoiler:

After reviewing MoI's claim ideals, the only problem I see with that style may be a fake-JK claim where we haven't got rid of the scum-backup JK yet, which would mean we would be losing a PR and giving one to the scum team which could stop our other PR(s) from working, but otherwsie I am in agreeance with how any claims should be made.

Well hopefully we'll get rid of the backup JK and not force the town one to claim unless they need to (such as one scum left)

By the way all town PRs should claim and we wait for counter claims. That is all.

Why should be have them claim and expose themselves to the mafia kill tonight?
Have them claim tomorrow and not have the vig take a shot tonight would be better in my opinion. (especially if we end up mislynching again today)

@Mod, if we get to 3v3 with both the jailkeeper and the vig alive, does the game continue going?

@MoI; I asked the question, as I believe that's why we shouldn't have the JK claim yet.
as for my read of director, I had a look over them during the night and they seemed less scummy.

My guess to the team at the moment is nekoko, mhork and possibly potato. although there is a chance director may be part of it still - I'm not completely sure.

I also remind people of my doubts about the director at the start of day 2 after I had JK'ed him and a kill went through. - This was only changed after om said he was going to replace out and I realised that he would probably have been more likely to have submitted a kill if scum than director was.

[Cheery Dog]

Shammy, Im town as hell right now. I don't always bust out my "Im so obvtown, you are stupid card" but when I do Im town, damnit >.>

That is something you could easily fake.

And @moi; ok I'll follow the plan, I was just trying to see why it had to be that way.
VOTE: disturbed one

[Cheery Dog]

He was already le hammered.

But ok. If anything, Cheery is making me think he is town with this fake vote.

I never counted the votes and was therefore unsure of how many were left to go (I seriously can't be bothered flipping back through previous pages when I'm reading from my phone) since I also never bothered counting (I'm not even aware of how many are required to lynch today), I thought I better just make sure it was known it that I was going to follow said plan.

[Cheery Dog]

You guys never gave me time to post in the dead thread

Good job anyway. If I hadn't blocked disturbed I don't know what would have happened. I originally planned to block him night 1 until the director came in and changed my mind.

[Cheery Dog]

Cheery, if I ever have a gut scumread on you in the future, Im going to go ahead and assume you are town

You should always assume I'm town, I'm yet to have been scum, so if you assume I'm town, based on my past alignments, you get a 100% chance of being right

[Cheery Dog]

Based on the 13 games where I've flipped/game has ended anyway.

[Cheery Dog]

There is a known protective role in this setup though