Open 463: Black Flag Nightless (Game Over)

[Cerulean]

Ugh, been struggling with this game for a bit. Going to take a little break and reread the thread with fresh eyes to see if something comes up.

Regfan, something just occurred to me in response to your #1119 -- Thor might have somewhat of a point regarding his whole attempt to "bait people" onto the N wagon. Given the setup and the notion that Jesse doesn't completely bus his partners unless he has to, it's possible that he interpreted Thor trying to kickstart a N wagon as an out for having to vote for Sixty. I know I said earlier that scum have daytalk and thus Sixty would have been yelling at Jesse to bus vote but Vi was on V/LA and Tierce was pretty much ignoring the thread.

Bleh, it all sounds tinfoil hat theory right now, but I figured I'd throw out this (dumb) explanation out there.

~Empire.

[Justin Timberlake]

If there's anything you don't understand just ask away and I'll try and explain it clearer when I'm not somewhat tipsy.

Why I think Thor is town:

1) I find his change of read change on Cerulean from voting them to calling them obvtown from re-reading their play in Post 136 to be a town-tell, think he'd have been considering parking his vote for longer as scum, especially if the wagon alternate wagon at the time was on Piggy-Town. 2) I think him asking Piggy for a town-game where she's been lynched in Post 78 is a minor town-tell. 3) I think his catch up method of reading through, responding to some and then doing the rest later while noting for himself where he was up to such as said in Post 231 is more likely to come from town, think scum would be using the QT for stating where they're up to or where to catch up from. 4) I think the manner in which he goes 'got the opposite read off it' in Post 242 and asks for you to get together, discuss it and post both sets of opinions to be something that is fairly town motivated, I know as town I try and understand how a hydra is thinking not just together but individually so you can judge if the conclusions they've got to at the end make sense given their individual thoughts and conversation had. 5) I find the "If he flips scum I'm obvtown" comment in Post 362 about Voided to be genuine and it's something I often think when lynching a scum-read. 6) I don't think his Post 387 is him talking to partner in-thread, think them blitz hammering would have been discussed in the scum QT. 7) I think his whole play of voting N to see who would join him is massively massively town in thought process, he showed that he did suspect Sixty and knew that an N lynch wasn't going through so him pushing a 'counterwgon to save Sixty' cannot be the motivation for his move meaning that as scum either he planned the entire gambit of push someone else, then push whoever joins him which I don't think is the case. Especially not with the amount of flowing that occurs in the whole thing. I actually consider that whole situation to be a really really strong town-tell. 8) I found his whole Post 1125 to be genuine even though I think his opinion on partner hunting is wrong in this game.

---

With all that said my thoughts on N / Soul / Jesse is very jumbled up at the moment. Thought I was making progress on solving this entire game two days ago but it seems everything I've read since then re; Souls and Jesses meta and re-going through their ISOs has just thrown me of completely. I really think I need a day or two to just process everything and really want to hear from Jesse in the meantime as well as more from N - particularly about his thoughts on my reasoning behind Deadpool being town since him continuing to push and suggest that's what he thinks is the team while avoiding the reasoning makes little sense since he asked for it.

[Justin Timberlake]

I know I said earlier that scum have daytalk and thus Sixty would have been yelling at Jesse to bus vote but Vi was on V/LA and Tierce was pretty much ignoring the thread.

But probably not the QT. Which doesn't weaken your point as Jessie could have been.

[Thor665]

Quick comment before I actually wade through Soul's case to answer his questions.

@Soul

Why rebut Justin's anti-N case comments but not rebut his anti-Thor case comments?

[Justin Timberlake]

Why rebut Justin's anti-N case comments but not rebut his anti-Thor case comments?

He responded towards my town-tells on N, not my anti-N case and at that point I hadn't gone into my town-tells of you.

[Thor665]

Why were you just kidding about the v/la?

Why did you ask that question? It seemed fairly self explanatory from the sarcastic post she made.

I disagree - she actually didn't explain why she did it at all.
I grok that it was "sarcasm, lulz" but...why say it? That's what I wanted to know.
You harp on this for a bit, so I can skip ahead now.

This post in my opinion implies that Thor has meta as a reason to formulate his opinion on Piggy yet later in the game he explains that he neither prefers nor dislikes meta in reasoning to call people scummy.

Why make this comment when he's shown some apathy to meta? It's another question that means little to him but he just asked it anyway to look busy.

I neither prefer or dislike meta.
It's suspect that I use meta.
I don't think you actually know what 'neither prefer or dislike' means. Because, hint, it doesn't mean 'refuse to use...or 'dislike'...in fact it means I don't dislike it...derp.

Thor, do you believe that meta research on N, who "only has" town games is inconclusive?

Absolutely.
The ability to use it is so narrow and constrained as to be laughable. Meta is tough enough to work with actual knowledge, much less derp half-knowledge.

What part of the post do you not like from Piggy? The fact that she thinks you don't care yet ask questions because I am seriously confused by this post of yours.

I know you probably won't read this but since you "demolished" Mehdi's case earlier I think you'll respond to anything that is actually seriously addressed to you.

I wanted to know why she specifically thought I was disinterested. She couldn't provide an answer and that made her conclusion scumspect as opposed to townspect. Because either the conclusion was scumhunting, or was just mud slinging, and I wanted to know which. It's a pretty complicated and new edge scumhunting method.

I like this from Thor and I think this actually a pretty town remark coming from him since it seems that Thor is interested in why Piggy finds him scummy for reasons not including one that'd require omgus but still being partly true.

I personally think you're trying to get me to put more meaning into that 'suggests' than there really is.
Counter question, if by 'suggests' he means 'We have yet to have done anything to make the read legit' why even mention it at all?

You were the one that had the problem with the word in the first place and made a post dedicated to it. Again, note the dismission of the meta reasoning.

I'm aware you're attacking me here.
I don't understand how or for what reason. It just looks like sturm and drang.

I already answered this - what part didn't you grok?

I think I'm missing this answer, can you please quote it. Do you mean where you talked about how you have never needed to adjust?

That would be in Post 85.
Good ISO work.
I might be trying to dismiss the quality of your case by suggesting you didn't read well enough to have a good conclusion.
And by 'might be' I mean 'am'

So early in your iso and I am already getting confused because you answer questions with questions which is not helpful in my opinion.

And is so scummy too - you'll explain that eventually, I am sure.

I noted this earlier in my catchup post, he goes from "rattling their cages" and having issues with their known methods to rethinking that their actions are obv. town and stating as such. This was after the Ceru pressure he was trying to apply realistically did not go anywhere.

Or because I got a town read on them and announced as such.
I'm crazy like that.

Equi voting piggy to L-1 with minimal explanation or force. That clear enough?

~Mehdi

Except for it being a scumtell - yes.

Let me flip the tables, Thor. Why is this not a scum tell because Mehdi and I both agreed that it was not a town motivated action in our opinion when she made that vote.

I have a snippy and rhetorical question to about this specific post but then I feel like I would be stooping to your level.

Yeah...um, y'see, for it to be a scumtell you need to explain the scum motivation. The best I think you can manage is 'trololol, pushing town wagon while avoiding giving reasons!'
The thing is, that's like an elementary scumtell - so much so that scum avoid it like the plague. COnversely, voting someone to L-1 with no commentary does garner reactions and responses, and those are immensely pro-town. So there is both a scum and a town motivation to the act - which means it's most likely a null tell unless you can prove the motivation.

Uh-huh.

Let's lynch Absta or Voided.

Is this the pressure and aggressive behavior that you were talking about recently Thor?

Worked to get Voided lynched, so...yes.

These types of posts are unnecessarily argumentative and again go to my point that Thor is subtly trying to undermine legitimate, albeit weak reasons against people.

How dare Thor question weak reads!
Sooooooooo scummy!

Here he is passively defending Sixty about their case and still continuing to argue with Cerulean.

Actually - that would be actively defending Sixty - I called out Cerulean for questioning the case and said I thought the case was good and also claimed the case was based off my thoughts.
Good ISO work.

Question: You are familiar with active lurking and the loose derivatives it can produce, right?

Nope - you should explain them.

Note to self - Post 206

What came of this?

When I did my second section of catchup I started from Post 206.
Good ISO work.

Lastly, love how ceru is obv town when not too long before they were worth voting. Sure read changes happen, but going from one side to the complete opposite in a couple pages is off.

No - it isn't. Dear gawd, that's a terrible point.

And, what, you can't give a two sentence summation of the Ceru case? It must be bad then.

Unecessary dismission of Jesse's case. Not all people are as articulate and precise with your words as you are. Some people actually try to explain their dislikes of people's playing rather than saying "beard" or "no grok, sir"

Except - it's quite valid.
Y'see, all this silly "case" It's not a case.
The case (thus far) is "Thor is dismissive of others, changes his reads in awkward ways, soft defended Sixty, and is active lurking through pointless questions."
That's the case.
This is 'examples' or, if you wish 'proof'.
Big difference.

Thor is passively pushing the Voided wagon while simulataneously saying that is active aggression when it really isn't and he isn't even focusing on what his scum read is saying.

That's the closest thing I've seen to a scum case on me thus far.
I disagree with your definition of 'passively pushing'

This is an awkward interaction with Sixty and it is one of the few because Thor's otherwise activity has been engaging with other people and mostly ignoring Sixty other than the early Cerulean questioning about his opinion of Cerulean. Without prompt he mostly ignores sixty.

Good job reading that in context and noting my later comment about the context.

Later on when he says he's been pushing the N wagon as a test that's also off when on day 2 he wasn't treating sixty as a big scum read either (and if that's a reaction test as well how does not scum reading sixty help you in any way?)

I disagree with your ability to read between the lines.

Nothing too concrete that he dislikes about them. Other than a general course of action that didn't really make sense now that he is finally being tied to a read on them. Back in Reverse Mafia Rudex he's willing to argue with them a lot originating over their plan but here when they have a plan he doesn't really think on it much himself.

Well...other than to say how the concept obviously came from a non-town standpoint, yeah, I totally didn't address it.

All rapid posts that serve really no purpose other than to show that Thor dislikes the reasoning in those posts or potentially finds them scummy.
Again, the vote on N and the reasoning for beard are all copouts. It also shows more of instead of giving more reason to get people to agree with him (one man doesn't make a lynch) he just weakly shows dislike.

You're right, the push on N, in retrospect, looks disingenuous, forced, and not well supported.
Weird.


Disclaimer: Skipping the rest because this is getting too long and terrible.
If there is anything in the second half that is really worthwhile - say so, and I'll respond.
But...'meh, I disagree with you' is probably the core answer to everything except phrased in different witty and sarcastic ways.

[Thor665]

Why rebut Justin's anti-N case comments but not rebut his anti-Thor case comments?

He responded towards my town-tells on N, not my anti-N case and at that point I hadn't gone into my town-tells of you.

Fair enough, and you asked for them too, so it makes sense. I just remembered it as part of the post you had on both N and I, so the half response felt weird.

[Cerulean]

JT - how does thors own statement that his town game and scum game aren't really different affect your reading of his town tell? Also, have you ever played in a game with Thor scum?

Looking forward to hearing more from Jesse and f-16

F-16 - in your reads you just called Thor Thor. Is there are reason you didn't give a read on him?

I was hoping I'd be able to get back to this game on sunday after I got back from vacation, but it's actually not going to be before Monday to reread and stuff. I found out yesterday I have a Monday deadline for another game in mylo.

[callforjudgement]

Vote Count

• JesseSheffield (2)
  : N Thor665
  
• N (2)
  : Deadpool Soul2277
  
• Thor665 (1)
  : JesseSheffield
  
• Not voting:
  Justin Timberlake Cerulean

Deadline: Mon 3 Dec, 10:37 UTC (

automatic countdown: (expired on 2012-12-03 10:37:00)

)

With 7 alive it is 4 to lynch.

JesseSheffield has been prodded.

[Soul2277]

Thor, I could wall reply you back, but I don't really see a lot of point for a case that big. If there's something specific you want to respond to sure, otherwise I'll pass on doing text wars with you of that size.

Quick question why was there a dislike scummy face when we said one thing you did felt town?

1) I find his change of read change on Cerulean from voting them to calling them obvtown from re-reading their play in Post 136 to be a town-tell, think he'd have been considering parking his vote for longer as scum, especially if the wagon alternate wagon at the time was on Piggy-Town.

2) I think him asking Piggy for a town-game where she's been lynched in Post 78 is a minor town-tell.

3) I think his catch up method of reading through, responding to some and then doing the rest later while noting for himself where he was up to such as said in Post 231 is more likely to come from town, think scum would be using the QT for stating where they're up to or where to catch up from.

4) I think the manner in which he goes 'got the opposite read off it' in Post 242 and asks for you to get together, discuss it and post both sets of opinions to be something that is fairly town motivated, I know as town I try and understand how a hydra is thinking not just together but individually so you can judge if the conclusions they've got to at the end make sense given their individual thoughts and conversation had.

5) I find the "If he flips scum I'm obvtown" comment in Post 362 about Voided to be genuine and it's something I often think when lynching a scum-read.

6) I don't think his Post 387 is him talking to partner in-thread, think them blitz hammering would have been discussed in the scum QT.

7) I think his whole play of voting N to see who would join him is massively massively town in thought process, he showed that he did suspect Sixty and knew that an N lynch wasn't going through so him pushing a 'counterwgon to save Sixty' cannot be the motivation for his move meaning that as scum either he planned the entire gambit of push someone else, then push whoever joins him which I don't think is the case. Especially not with the amount of flowing that occurs in the whole thing. I actually consider that whole situation to be a really really strong town-tell.

8) I found his whole Post 1125 to be genuine even though I think his opinion on partner hunting is wrong in this game.

1. Mentioned that in the case as a scum tell.

2. Connects to his strange lack of dislike or preference for meta while still using it. Although his response to that part was decent meta wise the way he's treated it has still been strange overall.

3-5. Sure for all 3. None of which I agree is strong though.

6. The problem with your both scum will bus is that your only scum suspect on the wagon was me.

7. Same as 1's response.

8. Mainly find that right now it's his only option. If he scum hunts for teams he's going to get himself or his partner lynched the next day. By scum hunting only based on players it's easier to get past that.

Lastly while not mentioned the best case for thor and n is they must be scum if I'm town (assuming that PoE worked). Jt what's your current read on me and how does it compare to the read on thor? Both of us can't be town unless scum team speculation is off by a lot.

~Mehdi

[Thor665]

Thor, I could wall reply you back, but I don't really see a lot of point for a case that big. If there's something specific you want to respond to sure, otherwise I'll pass on doing text wars with you of that size.

Do you agree or disagree with my responses. Because I personally think I treated that case like it was as functional as a one-legged man in a butt-kicking contest.
If you disagree with that, and see some awesome points of yours that I'm not responding to functionally - how about you call me out on it and explain how those responses are bad.
Feel free to pick your top 2-3 points that I'm not even denting.

Quick question why was there a dislike scummy face when we said one thing you did felt town?

Wondered what it was doing in there. If you were making a scum case on me, even as bad as that scum case was, I was curious why you'd list a town tell.
Also, if you're listing town tells - why was that the only one worth mentioning?

[Soul2277]

Since OS felt like commenting on it when he read your iso (in other words ask him why that specific one).

How dare Thor question weak reads!
Sooooooooo scummy!

Yeah that's the point. Great to see you see it too. And it's not the fact you're question weak reads, but it felt like you were trying to remove weak reads.

You're right, the push on N, in retrospect, looks disingenuous, forced, and not well supported.
Weird.

I honestly don't know whether this is supposed to be sarcastic or not. If it's sarcastic sure you've said it was a reaction test, so you're also giving it was a really weak reaction test too?

Well...other than to say how the concept obviously came from a non-town standpoint, yeah, I totally didn't address it.

There's a difference between the amount of arguing you had with sixty that appeared after their plan in mafia rudex to the amount of arguing in this game. That's the point.

I disagree with your ability to read between the lines.

Want to expand on this?

That's a couple of the more noticeable things I disagree with.

~M

[Thor665]

Since OS felt like commenting on it when he read your iso (in other words ask him why that specific one).

Out of curiosity - why didn't you ask? Or did the two of you not review that case together?

Yeah that's the point. Great to see you see it too. And it's not the fact you're question weak reads, but it felt like you were trying to remove weak reads.

How is questioning weak reads scummy?
Also, aren't you calling me out for having weak reads...does that make you scummy for doing that, or does it make the reads scummy for being weak?
I am pretty dumb, but this feels like a mixture of not a scumtell and also internal hypocrisy - clearly I'm getting that wrong, so what am I messing up?

You're right, the push on N, in retrospect, looks disingenuous, forced, and not well supported.
Weird.

I honestly don't know whether this is supposed to be sarcastic or not. If it's sarcastic sure you've said it was a reaction test, so you're also giving it was a really weak reaction test too?

1. Yeah, it has sarcasm. Just a touch though, you should hardly feel it because it's so subtle.
2. I dunno, you seem to have been totally sold on it being a legit case, so it can't have been that bad of a test. But, yeah, it does seem that when I point out that it was a reaction test and you look at what I'm saying I'm being rather aggressive (or...I dunno, whatever word you like to use to describe it) towards N, and encouraging the lynch, and yet not actually really doing anything of worth with it - and then Jesse hops on it.

Also, if you think it was so bad - is your logic that I was scum trying to deflect by not getting behind the counter-wagon I was trying to build? What was my scum concept here?

There's a difference between the amount of arguing you had with sixty that appeared after their plan in mafia rudex to the amount of arguing in this game. That's the point.

There couldn't be arguing though - I said it obviously didn't come from a town perspective, and then he power lurked and went quiet.
So...? Whut, was I supposed to start arguing with him by making up his rebuttals or something? I don't even get what you're suggesting should have happened differently.

I disagree with your ability to read between the lines.

Want to expand on this?

I kind of feel I did above - but short answer is 'if you're town, you don't deal well with gambits...at all.'

[Soul2277]

I did. And asked him to remove it, but he disagreed saying he wanted to put it in there since the tell itself wasn't bad and he was trying to just write as he read (I modified other parts while he checked too) and found it meaningful to not only comment on scum tells (if you need more there the again ask him since it wasn't a point I spent hours arguing). I didn't care why it was that particular town tell.

1. Discrediting weak reads is scummy not questioning weak reads and you're posts then felt more like they were trying to discredit then understand.

2. You didn't intend it to be weak and it ended up that way would be a better motivation. Considering it's part white flag I could see scum not giving up so quickly on sixty.

3. Arguing was a bad word choice there. It's just the tone of the disagreement feels different. There you were more aggressive towards the plan, but here not so much.

4. I disagree with not treating sixty as scum more would help the gambit.

~M

[Thor665]

0.

1. You do grok that if we just change the word to 'challenging' weak reads then suddenly what I was doing sounds awesome and pro-town even by your own description there. This feels like an incredibly fine point of distinction - is that just me?

2. Riiiight. So, basically I tried to save him, realized I'd done about the worst job ever of it, but then realized I could backtrack and claim it all as a clever ploy...Ockham's, yeah?

3. I called it, in no uncertain terms, a scum action. How could I have been more aggressive? Started just screaming at him while he wasn't there? JT and Ceru seem to have been able to spot what my actual opinion was there, even if (maybe) I had to point it out to remind them my stance, why is this so niggly for you?

4. I would have to at least be neutral towards him or not discuss him much on the lynch Day in order to gambit (and I did the latter and...yeah, it looks rather obvious in my opinion how I'm circling not discussing him that Day). But...whut? You're saying I should have called Sixty scum more, while also trying to work a gambit of seeing who would sheep blind Thor unexplained tunnel on a different player? I don't think that's a good plan at all - and even if it is the best way to pull that gambit ever made, how would me not doing it make me more scummy? At worst you're suggesting the gambit was poorly pulled off - newsflash; if there was a gambit than I'm almost assuredly town. For me to be scum there are only really three possibilities;

- I didn't try to pull a gambit, but was going for a legit mislynch (interesting since you seem to think N is my partner)
- I faked pulling a gambit for lulz town points (which would presume there are better lulz town points than just lynching the buddy I'd already called scummy while no one had expressed any real suspicion of me yet)
- I am just raging bad/idiot savant brilliant as scum and do whatever I want, whenever I want, because that's how Thor roles now despite all past evidence.

Am I missing one?
Which are you advocating?

[N]

I really think I need a day or two to just process everything and really want to hear from Jesse in the meantime as well as more from N - particularly about his thoughts on my reasoning behind Deadpool being town since him continuing to push and suggest that's what he thinks is the team while avoiding the reasoning makes little sense since he asked for it.

Sorry, I keep putting it off. A lot of it seemed to be 'this is an obvious towntell', which I disagree with, but it's hard to argue opinions. If you want me to respond to it, there's probably going to a few times all I can say is "I disagree" and not much else.

[N]

Here's why Deadpool is town:

- Abstas jump on Equinox in Post 25 and subsequent unvote in Post 28 with the reasoning explained in Post 48, Post 52 and Post 54 all read as a gambit and move that makes sense for him to do as town, he was attempting to use the situation to get reactions and reads and the manner of the unvote with the reasoning shows that. I don't think he'd have thought to do that or followed through with it as scum as it just throws him into the spotlight and allows people to attack him for 'unvoting and not voting anyone else' in the early stages of the game.

I don't see why this is more likely to have come from town than scum. I feel like it might have been designed to try and get Equinox on-side (and while it didn't work on her directly, it's worked on you, her replacement). If he had in fact done it to get reactions and gauge alignments, why did he not vote for anyone until his fence-sitting Voided vote in 142/147, which he sat onto until the lynch?

- Abstas replace out in Post 545 and Post 547 and Post 558 is confirmed not to be him having a lack of time for the as he instantly /inned for another game which means that the only reasoning for his replace out can be due to him not being motivated to continue the game or being spoiled or at least thinking his integrity in the game was compromised. The phrasing of "I MIGHT HAVE TO replace out, let me think on it" points heavily against him just being unmotivated to continue and I don't think he's a big enough cunt to replace out for the sole reason that a partner was lynched so that leaves only one real possibility. And that possibility is that he was compromised which cannot happen if he's scum which makes him essentially conftown.

I disagree. (I don't think that Sixty was lynched was the

sole

reason; in fact it read more to me as him being de-motivated about the game. Sixty hadn't even actually been lynched at that stage, but he probably knew he was going to end up prod-dodging the rest of the game and get no enjoyment out of it. It's a null-tell.

- Sixtys vote on Absta in Post 63 later explained in Post 134 as them attempting to see who would switch wagons and get reactions and reads based around that isn't something I see happening towards a partner. Abstas response towards it in Post 148 of "This is also a nicer way of saying "we were trying to misslynch absta"." isn't what scum say to a partner as well. Entire interaction and situation points heavily towards him being town from it.

It's strange that you say this, but unless I'm mistaken, you were on the Piggy lynching wagon, whom I had said similar things about. Sixty's reasoning there doesn't sound that dissimilar than what Thor said about his vote on me; if you're saying Thor and I could be buddies, I don't see the difference here.

- Deadpools attitude and interaction with Tammy when replacing in of attacking her and pressuring her for reads is something that I can very much understand the motivation behind, while I don't think he went about it the best way as it just lead towards stubbornness between the two I don't think he'd attempt to pit himself against the most widely considered town slot in the game as scum there. Him stating that he told F-16 to hold of reading the thread while they wait for Piggys flip in Post 939 is very very very understandable as town. The line of 'if someone is trolling and prolonging this it's not cool' is what I was thinking and is incredibly genuine. I also think his image in Post 993 is a relatively decent town tell too.

I disagree. Everyone half-celebrated, thinking the game was over, on Piggy's lynch. To not pretend to think the game was over would have been a scumclaim (by anyone). 993 is a post by Thor, but Deadpool posted images in 895 and 903; which one did you mean to refer to?

[N]

Huh. That didn't take as long as I thought it would; I should have done it earlier.

[Cerulean]

Regfan, I read through your case for Thor being town and I'll have a more detailed post about it tomorrow but I want to say this: Tammy and I both think you might be massively underestimating Thor, we think he's very capable of faking a lot of the minor-ish towntells you listed in thread (as opposed to the scum QT). The one thing I am inclined to agree with you on is his push on N being a towntell and that he might have a point re: Jesse being scum after looking at his meta.

F-16, would really love it if you finished your catch-up and helped us out here.

~Empire.

[Deadpool]

I am catching up now. I have been reading new info as it pops up (except the walls) so, if there is anything you want me to comment on now, let me know. Otherwise, I'll probably be done in a couple of hours (if I am being optimistic).

Regarding the other question - why I called Thor a "Thor read": Partly because I don't yet have a good read on him and partly as a joke - read his wiki, and partly because I pushed a lynch on him in another game when we were both town assuming that his scum game is extremely good. I'll post my thought on Thor when I am finished.

Preliminary thoughts: I am really undecided on the whole "baiting to see if anyone doesn't join the Sixty wagon." I can see both town and scum motivations behind it - town because of just what he said. Scum because he had a neat explanation for derailing the Sixty wagon - one that town would buy, so win-win. If somebody else gets lynched other than Sixty, that is the second mislynch. If not, he gives his explanation that he was baiting players off the Sixty wagon.

More later.

~ F-16

[Thor665]

I hate you, Empire.

@FF - except your theory Thorscum plan actually doesn't make sense with how I was playing it.

[Deadpool]

How were you playing it? Can you describe what about it doesn't make sense as scum?

~ F-16

[Cerulean]

I hate you, Empire.

You're mean. Not my fault you're competent at scum.

I am catching up now. I have been reading new info as it pops up (except the walls) so, if there is anything you want me to comment on now, let me know. Otherwise, I'll probably be done in a couple of hours (if I am being optimistic).
...
Preliminary thoughts: I am really undecided on the whole "baiting to see if anyone doesn't join the Sixty wagon." I can see both town and scum motivations behind it - town because of just what he said. Scum because he had a neat explanation for derailing the Sixty wagon - one that town would buy, so win-win. If somebody else gets lynched other than Sixty, that is the second mislynch. If not, he gives his explanation that he was baiting players off the Sixty wagon.

I'm specifically interested in your current reads and your response to Regfan's PoE analysis. Also, read the walls, they're fun.

~Empire.

[Soul2277]

1. Yup. It's just how you see it.

2. Ockham's isn't always right, but I think this one's at least understood.

3. I honestly had to read back to remember the context of the argument, but you're point on sixty not being there isn't true, since when sixty mentioned that plan they were still walling. They stopped shortly after that.

4. I'll drop this just because the bigger problem isn't the gambit (which I still think you just decided to call it that later on instead of saying weak push elsewhere) is that it was on N just makes things strange. It becomes a bigger argument if N flips town (although that'd also mean one of my strong town reads is scum), but right now that just requires multiple assumptions to make sense.

~Mehdi

[callforjudgement]

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