MS Fantasy Camp 2: Reaper's Tale! (Finished!)

[sangres]

I'm basically an innocent child.

I dare scum to try and lynch me.

[sangres]

Hi!

VOTE: sangres

Do you remember your mission nacho? I'm going to default to empires read on you, so make it good!

Pedit: I was supposed to be first

[sangres]

I'm not necessarily sad I rolled town, but I sort of am?
This is a melancholy time for me.

[sangres]

Wait caps aren't a scumtell for me right?
Fuck I'm so nervous Empire is gonna catch me, making that post was so fucking scary

[sangres]

He's too fucking good at reading me when he's not playing with me
I'm sure posts directed solely towards him will have no bearing on how he reads me at all so I'm pretty much fucked

[sangres]

TAMMY PLEASE HOLD ME
I DON'T CARE IF CAPS ARE SCUMMY OR NOT, I NEED THEM TO FAKE CONFIDENCW SO I CAN PRETEND I AM AFRAID OF EMPIRE

(please correctly read me as town before he does, please)

[sangres]

Vote: No Lynch

[sangres]

TAMMY PLEASE HOLD ME
I DON'T CARE IF CAPS ARE SCUMMY OR NOT, I NEED THEM TO FAKE CONFIDENCW SO I CAN PRETEND I AM AFRAID OF EMPIRE

(please correctly read me as town before he does, please)

Even if I do get a read on you before he does, his reads are the only ones that matter this game according to the hydra contract he made me sign.

I am negotiating a one solo post per day allowance right now though!

If you read me as town before he does it won't matter this game because I will get mislynched anyways.
But in postgame, I will post a and even a god king can fall.

[sangres]

You guys won't believe how happy I am that we drew town! All that noise last night was me excitedly high-fiving Penguin about our incredible luck drawing town in this playerlist.

~ F-16

Should I be happy about drawing town?
I still am unsure.

[sangres]

you mean you aren't going to wuss out and read the easy-to-read head?

nice.

[sangres]

you mean you aren't going to wuss out and read the easy-to-read head?

nice.

I forbid you posting until everyone declares a read on me.

[sangres]

you mean you aren't going to wuss out and read the easy-to-read head?

nice.

Nope. I am in the big leagues now. I am not waiting for ffery to read your slot when I am perfectly capable of reading you.
~ F-16

THAT WAS FFERY AND NOT ME I DEMAND YOU READ ME

[sangres]

Because you're scum and killing 5 people isn't worth killing yourself.

[sangres]

...so, the "omg I'm Town" and basically everything sangres has posted is now officially old.

Also, Vote: Sixty because KITTIES ARE BETTER WHERE IS MY MAFIA WITH THE PUPPIES 2 I WANT HOPE BACK.

This puppyhalf take votes super-seriously and seriously this is a bad vote (for a good cause though).

Vote: sangres

(L-8) seriously approaching a policy lynch ("policy" being "makes too much annoying noise, and this is coming from someone who roleplays as a dog")

I don't think I ever said "omg I'm so town" or anything close to that, actually.
You should probably make a better vote than that.

[sangres]

For example: No Lynch, CDB.

[sangres]

Oh and,

Vote: Sangres

I expected this to come as soon as I posted the No Lynch Vote.
Why did you take so long?

[sangres]

If you're compulsive, you should frame us. We're investigation immune anyways.

[sangres]

My first major move of the game was buddying up to LLD because I expected it to spark a paranoid response from town-her, while scum-her would correctly identify that fake paranoia would be the expected response but would probably hesitate because I don't think she wants to play the fake paranoia angle on me as scum twice in a row, especially since my hydra partner this game is not anywhere near unreadable and said paranoia would be less believable as a result.

I currently think I'm outplaying you, puppy half.
And I'm outplaying you while being absolutely obnoxious. How does that make you feel?

[sangres]

vote cdb

Omgus

You've managed to irritate me as a collective and it's only three pages in. Please stop posting like dickheads.

Regards

Nexus.

I will replace my signature with a link to the page where things get serious, when they get serious.
In the meantime, please let me have my fun and don't be a curmudgeonly old man.

[sangres]

My first major move of the game was buddying up to LLD because I expected it to spark a paranoid response from town-her, while scum-her would correctly identify that fake paranoia would be the expected response but would probably hesitate because I don't think she wants to play the fake paranoia angle on me as scum twice in a row, especially since my hydra partner this game is not anywhere near unreadable and said paranoia would be less believable as a result.

I currently think I'm outplaying you, puppy half.
And I'm outplaying you while being absolutely obnoxious. How does that make you feel?

It makes this puppyhalf feel like voting you, then fact-checking, then continuing to vote you while insulting your competence.

This puppyhalf is fully willing to believe that that's what you think you're doing. There's no good explanation for voting No Lynch except to attempt to buddy up to LLD in some sad and misguided way. Why should we buy that you're Town?

---

@Zdenek - Please tell me you're not voting LLD because you want to irrationally defend us (much as we don't mind being irrationally defended). Please.

Fact check and insult my competence: TownTierce is best when she has the need for JUSTICE.

You shouldn't believe I'm town, unless you think my current posting is unfakeable? You should see that my opening is at least trying to accomplish more than simply being obnoxious, though.

[sangres]

My first major move of the game was buddying up to LLD because I expected it to spark a paranoid response from town-her, while scum-her would correctly identify that fake paranoia would be the expected response but would probably hesitate

because I don't think she wants to play the fake paranoia angle on me as scum twice in a row

, especially since my hydra partner this game is not anywhere near unreadable and said paranoia would be less believable as a result.

I currently think I'm outplaying you, puppy half.
And I'm outplaying you while being absolutely obnoxious. How does that make you feel?

I'm sorry who the fuck are you and when did I do this? Did I miss another fucking hydra in this game? How many fucking hydras asffdggAasfas

brb being Raeg cat.

-Nacho

[sangres]

Also, I'm 99% that the current poster in the Sixty hydra is Six, not Ty.

It would make me said if I was outplaying Six in this way: Vi's a bigger troll than I am so shouldnt be letting a little teasing and shenanigans get under her skin

[sangres]

Why did you vote me before you knew I was me?

[sangres]

Also, I'm 99% that the current poster in the Sixty hydra is Six, not Ty.

Shhh. You're ruining our fun. (also, they're parentheses)

You shouldn't believe I'm town, unless you think my current posting is unfakeable? You should see that my opening is at least trying to accomplish more than simply being obnoxious, though.

[ ] providing evidence of you being Town
[ ] providing evidence of a read on LLD
[x] taking up space in the most obnoxious way possible

This puppyhalf thinks it'll probably be for the best if I take a vacation to wherever Nexus is right now.

[ ] sorting out players quicker than Nacho is sorting out players.

[sangres]

You could call me town because I'm the most useful player in thread so far.
You could call me town because the obnoxious posting style re: Tammy posts apply to Tammy and Tammy alone and as a whole, the player list would be far more receptive to a more aggressive and obviously scumhunting scum-Nacho (in such a scenario, I would have cleared the players who weren't being mislynched as town already and started pressuring the chaff).
You could call me town because I'm telling you you're letting stupid things get in your way and am telling you you're playing badly as a result (Nacho-scum getting on your bad side early game for no apparent reason? No thank you!).
If you were playing particularly well, you could also call me town for the reasons I'm calling myself town. But that particularly bit is a bit hard to see

[sangres]

Why did you vote me before you knew I was me?

Pressure. Thought you were some new-ish player and with Vi's vote on you, I thought building a wagon on you would tell me a lot about your alignment.

Shouldn't the best town performance Scummy + you judging the scummies mean you know I'm probably not a new player?

[sangres]

Why did you vote me before you knew I was me?

Pressure. Thought you were some new-ish player and with Vi's vote on you, I thought building a wagon on you would tell me a lot about your alignment.

Shouldn't the best town performance Scummy + you judging the scummies mean you know I'm probably not a new player?

Best performance town is given to anyone who is in the game. I don't really see how this applies.

You did read the game, right?

[sangres]

F-16, where did you go?

[sangres]

Sixty:

Vi aggressive approach to me is something I sort of liked even though it was a poor opening game-wise. In her last two scumgames that I'm aware of, (Black Flag Nightless + Dr Who), she had the half-joking opening on chamber-CES which turned to more of a "holy shit can I actually get these guys lynched", and Black Flag Nightless, which was more of a conventional opening where she jokes then transitions to a serious vote. Her vote on me seems like an odd agenda for Vi-scum to open up with: I don't think I'm a greater threat to the slot than others (especially since I'm most likely going to trust Tierce-Tammy if they call scum even if I have a townread in place already). She also seems to like to transition to serious votes as quickly as possible or scum, so trying to get me more focused as opposed to making progress on a mislynch seems more like a town move, although he could be trying to set me up for a mislynch or he could be playing around while looking for a more definite action. Ultimately, will probably end up focusing on Tierce head for read but initial thoughts are town.

LLD:

LLD is a surprisingly strong townread for me at this point (which fuels slight paranoia in and of itself, but not significant paranoia). Tonally, I think LLD looks town: she isn't a particularly aggressive sorter early game, but she occasionally gives off those vibes as scum. She also has more playerlist awareness as scum, so her not knowing who was in sangres is a good sign, and I don't think that on a whole was faked. Even more importantly, I think that her outing of her ability is incredibly town after realizing what Zdenek brought up recently. If LLD kept that ability under wraps, she would be able to win as scum for setting up a LyLo where she leads to a No Lynch. She would be able to get a double kill every time she was able to drown the town in apathy, and she would be able to get a double town if she suggested moving from evens to odds. I don't think any limits the mods could place on that particular ability could make it weak enough to justify the early out for LLD-scum, and I think the limits that seem to be placed on it so far (doesn't know who each player is, picks post and not player) make sense for limits on a town role but don't nerf the power enough to be given to scum.

Cerulean:

Tammy seems pretty obviously town. Early game excitement and strong openings are something Tammy still feels uncomfortable pulling off as scum (or even attempting, really, and occasionally dumbs down her town game so that she can't be read in one post), so I'd probably light a puppy on fire if I thought she was scum. I probably won't ever mention this read again because it's sort of useless and only feeds her already uncontrollable ego, so please don't ask me about it and please don't call the slot scum.

Zdenek:

Zdenek opening seems good to me! I think early role out is slightly townish, but the main reason I have a townread on him is because of how he engages LLD's ability (to be fair, I don't know how he would approach it as scum except by not caring that much, but how it evolved seemed pretty genuine to me).

Flipping Awesome:

I don't have a read on F-16 yet. I like that he seems excited for rolling town, but I think it's obvious he would be excited for rolling town in this player list and his excitement isn't particularly fakeable. Him taking strong ownership of reading me and specifically me is nice, but I didn't think that was fakeable (although closer to fakeable). I am currently taking a pretty strong and pretty early approach to saving the game as soon as possible (and am being pretty transparent about it!), so I'm hoping that he engages this wall with a pretty great response so I can slate him in as obvious town as opposed to kinda town but not quite there yet.

Nero Cain:

I have a light townread on Nero Cain because he tends to step on toes as little as possible while scum while doesn't give a shit about it as town, and his reaction to my No Lynch Vote seems like classical Nero Cain-town. I am unsure why he didn't vote us if he doesn't believe that I was initially reaction testing, though.

Tim Howard:

Nexus seems to have similar tendencies as Nero as scum and town from my initial skim of his ISO in that last newbie game he was scum in, so light townread there as well.

Nothing else is particularly interesting.

[sangres]

UT's also probably town.

[sangres]

F-16, where did you go?

Went out to grab lunch but I'm back. Let's keep talking until we are absolutely sure about each other's alignment. I'll comment on your wall in a bit but you don't have a read on me, wtf?

~ F-16

holy fuckin jesus is sangres always this much of a tryhard?

Not likely.

While 99 is a post to put in their signature for Nexus, the wall gets worse as it goes down. This isn't the puppyhalf with Tammy meta, but those Cerulean posts were starting to stretch belief for me. In addition, somehow Nacho went from "I have no read on F-16" to "I have a Town read on F-16 but not enough of one to actually come forward and say it's a Town read". The Tim Howard read is indeed trying hard, as is the throwout on you (UT) - I don't mind your Cerulean vote but that's probably not significant in the long run.

What would be super-interesting would be sangres moving their vote. Anything is better than No Lynch.

Cerulean posts were starting to stretch belief for you? What do you mean?

I don't really have a read on F-16. I notice his opening posts are good and expected from him as town, but not to the degree where they would be fakeable, and not to the degree where I'd be willing to drown myself if he were scum. This is pretty clear from my explanation of the read. Tim Howard read is a light one, and the UT-read is based in similar reasoning. Both read reasoning is identical to reasoning on Nero Cain.

Can I put post 99 in my signature? I want to, but it's sort of relevant to an ongoing game?

[sangres]

Nacho, how the heck do you not have a read on me? This was probably one of my best openings and I think that I already reacted in ways that are alignment indicative and I am surprised you can't see the genuineness here. I am much more obvtown than Tammy. How does she get an obvtown read but I don't? But I agree on your LLD and Tammy reads though.
~ F-16

I'm happier calling you obvtown when I have an opening like this + game solving time with Nacho.

[sangres]

vote:Sangres

feel better now, scumcho?

Yep!

[sangres]

You think Empire is actually filtering Tammy's posts?

[sangres]

quote should say "unfakeable, not fakeable".

[sangres]

and quotations marks went in the wrong place there

[sangres]

Comparing me to Nero Cain is not a compliment to either Nero or I. No idea what the dig from Sixty is about given that I've had little to no game experience with either head, especially recently, but whatever.

Sangres is pretty fucking terrible though. Waiting for Quadz to get online so I can actually talk to him. I'm bad as a hydra.

I said you and Nero Cain have similar tendencies in being more aggressive as town than as scum. This isn't an compliment or an insult: it's an observation that isn't limited to just you and your hydra partner. Vi's reference to you wasn't a dig: it was a reference to me saying that I would link to where the game gets serious in my signature so you wouldn't have to read through fluff.

[sangres]

You think Empire is actually filtering Tammy's posts?

Obviously not yet.

That said, if this is a joke I've yet to get, I would not be a bit surprised, but etc.

---

More important things - why are you commenting on Tim Howard or UT at all?

I'm happy enough with early townreads on them (Tim Howard moreso than UT). No revolutionary reasoning, but I feel both are pretty aware of their meta and have trouble emulating it as scum, so am also not worried about playing my hand too early there as far as that goes.

[sangres]

Nacho, I haven't seen anything from Sixty that would indicate town or scum and I am not really following your reasoning there and I am not getting it. I am null on them.

I agree with the LLD reasoning and that she used her ability in a pro-town way. I assumed she'd be difficult to read but most of her posting felt townish and pro-active. I especially like the muted reaction to Nero in Post 69 because his post about the IC seemed awkward and the kind of thing that people might jump on. I am not massively certain in this read but I lean town.

Tammy is fairly obvious. I really like her reaction to me in Post 51 and in general, her overall tone, coming into the game lighthearted and happy.

I don't have a read on Tim Howard. Nero Cain might be town but it is gut at this point.

Why make such an extensive reads list so early in the game? Don't you think waiting for a while would have given you a larger sample of posts to develop those reads?

~ F-16

I have time today. Extensive reads lists are a fine way to get the game started and continue talking about things is a fine way to speed up discussion since there's actually something to discuss: you wouldn't be blinking at me if I had these reads early game, why is it a big deal if I want to explain them?

[sangres]

Nacho, is your Vi read serious?

Yes.

[sangres]

Nacho, why does your read on Vi have anything to do with you trusting Tierce or Tammy which is information that Vi probably doesn't have available to her?

Tierce is easier to read than Vi.
I trust Tammy to read Tierce.

?

[sangres]

Nacho, how the heck do you not have a read on me? This was probably one of my best openings and I think that I already reacted in ways that are alignment indicative and I am surprised you can't see the genuineness here. I am much more obvtown than Tammy. How does she get an obvtown read but I don't? But I agree on your LLD and Tammy reads though.
~ F-16

I'm happier calling you obvtown when I have an opening like this + game solving time with Nacho.

Sorry, I am not following what you mean.
~ F-16

F-16 when he does stuff and hits the proper tonal notes is better than an F-16 hitting the proper tonal notes.

[sangres]

Nacho, why does your read on Vi have anything to do with you trusting Tierce or Tammy which is information that Vi probably doesn't have available to her?

Tierce is easier to read than Vi.
I trust Tammy to read Tierce.

?

I mean, my current read on Vi doesn't have anything to do with those two things, but my future read on Vi will probably have something to do with both of those things.

[sangres]

Nacho, why does your read on Vi have anything to do with you trusting Tierce or Tammy which is information that Vi probably doesn't have available to her?

Tierce is easier to read than Vi.
I trust Tammy to read Tierce.

?

That hyphen of yours sure was pregnant with meaning.

What on god's green earth are you talking about?

[sangres]

Empire, why is Vi town?

[sangres]

I meant to say Empire-Tammy in that particular hyphen.

[sangres]

Yeah, I can see that.
Her push on me initially was still pretty lame

[sangres]

EMPIRE GET YOUR AZURE ASS IN THIS GAME IMMEDIATELY

(Shh, don't tell her I've posted, it'll be funnier that way.)

And Nacho, I don't think it was a bad push to get the game going, sorry m8.
Also also, what does ffery think of F-16's entrance and his reaction to your push?

It gives her hives.
It gives her hives when he does it as town too, so no cigar.

[sangres]

I think you're pretty obviously town, okay????
Now get meta diving and do the work I'm too lazy to do, I've already done the first chunk for you.

[sangres]

Vote: Katsuki

[sangres]

Zdenek, why are we Town?

Where did I say that I think you are town?
I didn't by the way.
I said that I was going to defend you for a bit for a change of pace.
If Tierce doesn't get that, I don't know what to say.

My response is to make fun of Tierce for being bad at trolling and understanding trolling: yours should be the same!

[sangres]

F-16 YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY TOWN PLEASE START META DIVING

[sangres]

You are even more town than Tammy is, okay???

[sangres]

You're townier than I am

[sangres]

You are even more town than Tammy is, okay???

See I just threw myself in the doghouse for you, now pls make a big masturbatory reads list

[sangres]

Zdenek, why are we Town?

Where did I say that I think you are town?
I didn't by the way.
I said that I was going to defend you for a bit for a change of pace.
If Tierce doesn't get that, I don't know what to say.

Fair enoof!

Question the second: why did it take you so long to read Post 124?


Considering you can't even tell us apart, Nacho, I daresay we're even.

I thought Vi was less troll able than he actually is.
This brand new discovery of two gullible puppies instead of just one is worth that mistake.

[sangres]

Can people drop the forced conversational style that's going on? Its making things really hard to read.

I was waiting for you to post!

[sangres]

F-16 YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY TOWN PLEASE START META DIVING

I'll meta-dive when I feel like it and you know for a fact that I can do it as scum. I expected you to read me based on my tone which you know I can't fake. I'll re-read the thread and post my thoughts soon.
~ F-16

Your recent posts are amazingly and incredibly town where I would kill a baby if you flipped scum. Your initial posts were not so good where I would kill a baby if you flipped scum, and I wanted you to make yourself really really town.

[sangres]

I don't want you to meta dive so I can read you, I want you to meta dive so I can read others.

[sangres]

1% battery, I'm out this bitch.

[sangres]

Vote: Katsuki

LOLOL
NACHO IS THIS LAL YOU GOT?

VOTE: Katsuki
VOTE: Katsuki
VOTE: Katsuki
VOTE: Katsuki
VOTE: Katsuki

CHEEKY SCUMSUKI COULDN'T FUCKING RESIST COULDN'T HE
YOU FEEL SO FUCKING SMUG OVER THERE WITH YOUR "OH IM SCUM I AM GOING TO MANIPULATE EVERYONE HUEHUEHUE" BUT I SEE RIGHT THROUGH YOU SCUMSUKI

RIGHT
FUCKING
THROUGH

[sangres]

I SEE NOTHING BECAUSE YOU'RE FULL OF HOT AIR

I AM FIRE AND I'M BURNING YOU TO THE FUCKING GROUND

[sangres]

Children, please.

Not only is this trash talking not bringing us closer to a scum lynch, it's horribly bad.
Almost as worthless as F16 making a Town case on an IC.
Lambda, skittles aren't blue, they're

purple

mauve.

Katsuki's response to suspicion as scum is to bury the thread in bullshit, deflect, post nonsense.
Katsuki's response to suspicion as town is to talk about how I should be able to read him because this obviously isn't his scum meta (and it obviously isn't his scum meta), etc.

Unfortunately, no.

The posts are great and all, but do you actually have anything to say?

Some players fluff more than others in-game.
Trying to get players to fluff more in a game when this is a game and nothing more than a game makes you the person who yells at me when I make smiley faces in the boxes while playing Tic Tac Toe instead of the more socially acceptable 'x'. Please don't be that person: your avatar is far too adorable for you to be a cranky stick in the mud.

PEdit: I'm not trying to get her to calm down, I'm trying to get her to shut up, counterproductive as it apparently is~ 11 pages less than 24 hours in, do you think anyone is actually going to read them? No.

People in this playerlist who read and enjoy Tammy's catchups:
-Empire (because they make his slot look town)
-kanyeknowsbest (because secretly he reads everything in a game several times!)
-F-16 (because he's a Tammy fanboy)
-Nacho (because he's a Tammy fanboy)
-fferyllt (because she's a meticulous reader)
-penguin (because she's a meticulous reader)

Do I care that if anyone else reads them? No, not really. More importantly: does it matter? Are you honestly so strapped for time and so slow a reader that you can not parse a serious post from a not-serious one, that fluff somehow causes you pain or discomfort? Because, believe it or not, when you insult someone for being useless and saying nothing even though they are making an effort to parse the game CAN be insulting, and can cause pain/hurt emotions more than all the fluff in the world ever can. Don't you get tired of the same old cycle of being drawn into battling anti-town posting and then generating more anti-town posting and then being forced to battle it again? Has telling someone "you're fluffing, say something useful" ever

worked

? I'm sorry if I'm approaching this the wrong way, but please recognize this as an attempt to reach out and understand because you are currently part of the gamestate becoming poisonous and no one wants this to be that game where everyone yelled at each other and things were miserable and then we blocked it out of our memories even though every player in the list was actually quite good.

but actually, we've got a better than average chance just going with LLD's reads

Please sheep her onto Katsuki.

Also, apparently making another player feel like a bad person is super pro now, awesomely well done there, sixty.

You can see how the things you are saying are actually sort of really... bad, right? Especially quadz: I don't know Nexus at all as a person, but quadz seems to be more of a diplomatic type and tends not to poke at a conflict when one is clearly bubbling it instead of defusing it.

[sangres]

reports of my death were greatly exaggerated.

[sangres]

@f-16 that was in reply to venmar's rip comment.

[sangres]

It's not Venmar's lack of posting that makes me leery of him, it's what's actually in those posts. The prioritizing of reading Nacho-sangres, yet once he gets a town read on them, he doesn't use it. Like, there's no reach-out, no attempt to interact. Which if he knows the slot that well I'd expect.

Why would you expect that?

[sangres]

so this was like a generic expectation?

[sangres]

Way to completely miss the point of my post. I wanted ffery to engage me directly, and while your posts are nice and cool and all, it occurred to me that she's not really been very active in the thread (as far as I can tell). From what I remember, ffery's favorite part of the game is the early portion of it so it seems a bit out of character as both alignments for her not to be around and partake in it.

The point is that I am wussing out and want to read the easier head

want her to show me she's not dead and dive in a bit more.

I completely missed the point of your post as well then.

However, I've probably made more posts than you think.

What do you think about our early-ish wagon? What do you think about xReckoner jumping onto it apparently after reading up to the point where it was at its height?

[sangres]

I already mentioned it back in #168, but I thought the early wagon was fine to get the game going and get Real Conversation started. Do you want me to start talking about specific voters or...? As far as Reck is concerned, I didn't see his vote as opportunistic, just lazy, which is unfortunately null for him.
While you're around, what are your updated thoughts on F-16 since Nacho told me his stuff gave you hives and what are your thoughts on Venmar?

nacho is well aware that self-declarations of obvtownness give me hives whether I think a player is town or not.

The reads list nacho posted earlier was a consensus list. F-16 seems fairly town so far, though I don't think any of his early posts prior to nacho pushing him a little were unfakeable.

I have never played with scum-Venmar, but right now, I'm not seeing anything that is outside the range of how I've seen him play as town in the 2-3 games we've played.

What are your thoughts on F-16 and Venmar?

And what do you think of katsuki?

[sangres]

first game with Shadoweh, I think. I'll have to review some games at some point if/when I need to form my own read rather than depend on nacho's opinion. From what I've seen so far, I don't have any strong reasons to think she's scum.

[sangres]

Didn't i read in the early asoiaf game that faraday had a scum miller in an earlier uPick? Wasn't that part of why Thor got lynched day 1?

[sangres]

Empire I'm a little surprised that a mere 3 posts seems sufficient to satisfy your concerns that the thread had a glaring lack of ffery.

[sangres]

Honestly, the glaring lack of ffery is still in the back of my mind but I didn't feel like pursuing it further because your posts still read town, there's some other stuff worth looking into (though Tim Howard not posting is kinda dragging things for me), and if ffery's going to lurkscum her way through the game I'll find out eventually.

Ironically, one of the messages Tammy left for me this morning said she didn't like that yesterday the only thing ffery did was pop in to ask that question about the miller from the ASoIaF UPick but not actually engage in the framer debate but she'll have more to say about that whenever she's ready to come back and post.

that was a ffery post you were replying to. I thought the tone was pretty obviously me but I do occasionally get mistaken for nacho in this hydra. we think zdenek's framer claim looked pretty town so I'm mostly interested in seeing who disagrees and why.

this game has a fair number of players I either have never played with or who I seldom play with. so I'm in calibration mode atm.

also given my meta we thought it would be interesting to see who tried to read us via me. and who would be concerned by a low profile.

[sangres]

nacho/ffery - early thoughts on venmar?

I think Nacho will have a little time for this game tomorrow. I was expecting to have more time as well, but we'll see how it goes I guess.

I have never played with scum-Venmar, and it's been a while since I did a meta scan. So, I have a town-Venmar model that's probably a little sketchy and no scum-Venmar model at all. Nacho and I recently helped get him mislynched in a PoE situation where we both really thought he'd looked pretty town earlier in the game. To me, in this game so far, Venmar is coming off pretty similar to Xenosaga in tone, level of involvement, etc.

But, to a large extent I depended on Nacho's meta read in that game, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if Nacho sees an issue or two that I don't.

However, it will surprise me quite a bit if Nacho changes his mind about Katsuki given what he's posted this week.

Does Empire have an opinion on Venmar?

[sangres]

I am really curious why you didn't comment on my analysis after you basically asked for it.

I don't think Nacho's been back to this thread since you posed your analysis.

[sangres]

omg chamber just implied the scum color is green clearly he is scum lets lynch him immediately.

I know this is for histrionic effect mostly, but he didn't imply that at all. He implied that players who like scum roles would react differently to seeing the red font in their role PM.

[sangres]

it's ffery posting.

[sangres]

Oh, and Empire, I was in that Death Note game you linked for Katsuki. Part of my meta-scum read came from that but I am not as certain anymore so I'll post more thoughts on that in a bit.

I look forward to reading this because nacho was pretty sure this was katsuki's scum game, and I haven't seen anything since his last post that suggests he's wrong. But, I might very well miss something significant there.

I've been kinda coasting waiting to synch with nacho about this game. About ready to forge onward without him.

[sangres]

@ Ffery, I am looking forward to discussing his meta too. I see you played a lot of games with him. You said you were waiting for Nacho but I'd like to hear your thoughts as well.

All my experiential meta with katsuki are games where he was town. And the one game he played where I observed in something resembling real time, he was also town. Except for that observed game (ASOIAF), he has never impressed me. His usual modus in the games I played with him is to lurk, yell at people who don't like his activity level and OMGUS anyone who foses or votes him. It's probably a honeypot approach to scumhunting, but it garners tons of false positives.

I feel like what he's doing here is pretty much of that form though maybe a little more over the top care of channeling Fate? I think that it would be an easy screen for his scum game. Nacho sees scum katsuki in it, and unless he changes his mind I'm happy with the read.

[sangres]

I've never played with Shadoweh before. I need to read some of her prior games, mostly because I am not sure if the yelling and histrionics are more common in her town games or scum games. I remember her from the ASOIAF game also, but don't remember her getting pissed off like this.

As far as the mindset behind colorgate, I feel like it looks more reasonable coming from a player who didn't have a wtf moment reading their red-laced role pm.

[sangres]

sangres

- Their posts are better than I remembered. ffery is doing a pretty good job holding the slot down.

That last sentence surprises me.

[sangres]

I'm even more surprised at being called an easy lynch.

[sangres]

because nero pushing that looks more quixotically town than anything to me.

[sangres]

An easy target. Or did you forget how so many people were like "sangres is being annoying, VOTE VOTE VOTE" in the early game?

Not so many votes, really. That was a long time ago in forum game time, and Nero seems quite attached to the read.

[sangres]

dear kanye, how do you feel about shadoweh?

- notnacho

[sangres]

neither am I, though I was observing, not playing.

There's a fair amount of player overlap between the two games.

Chamber is a surprisingly strong town read. surprising because I haven't played that often with him (and only when he was town). his tone is different from the other two games but still strikes me as town.

[sangres]

Katsuki doesn't do that as scum but is much more involved with the game and actually has some semblance of "pro-town" play.

something

about his play struck nacho quite strongly as scum-katsuki. I don't really want to downgrade that without knowing more of the basis for it. I may move our vote tomorrow if I don't hear from him, but won't be calling katsuki town on my own.

[sangres]

Where is your allcapsrage?

Nacho hasn't posted in this game in over a week. Like I said a couple days ago, I'm forging on for now, but I'm not downgrading our read of you without knowing more about what Nacho saw that concerned him.

[sangres]

True. Which is why I'm not pushing it, and am making noises about changing our vote tomorrow.

[sangres]

I've been down this road with kats before and I got burned

This is a good reason to null read him and sheep others based on their read, but this isn't input on his wagon. I don't usually tunnel Katsuki when he's town: don't think I've even mislynched him?

[sangres]

But more importantly, could you tell me why you're sold on them being Town?

Let's go with this, this and this.

I liked it when you explained reads with words rather than links.
I can read on my own, but I can't get inside your head.

[sangres]

I just don't see a pro-town motivation behind his actions if he is, in fact, a non-compulsive framer.

I

do

see scum motivation in claiming a negative utility role on D1 for town points, though.

Pro-town motivation: The ability he has is useless to him as town. There's legitimately nothing minorly useful about it. It does tell him that there probably *isn't* another framer in game though, so by outing and leaving one less option for scum to squirm out of guilties, he turns a zero utility role into something with a tiny tiny bit of utility.

[sangres]

Zdenek doesn't die today, but he does die before lylo.

I mean, I have a lot of experience with milking early claims for all they're worth (see: Mafia behind the Maiden, Scummies Invitational), so it''s definitely POSSIBLE, but not what we want to do today.

Zdenek doesn't die because he made an early claim.
Not that this game is going to come anywhere near LyLo, but gotta keep your paranoia in check >.>

[sangres]

It would basically make you waste the shot on someone who's unequivocally town. On the off chance that I'm wrong about you being town, it takes the shot out of play by making sure it goes to someone unlikely to be investigated.

P-edit: ...this has to be the first time in a long while I mistook the posters of a hydra =/

It's artery egregious misread too, considering one posts singular posts and the other posts 20 times in a row!

[sangres]

Also, nacho, when you get back here. I'd really love your thougths on shadoweh. Please and thank you.

She's one of my strongest townreads and everyone that's voting her probably has some sort of brain damage that needs to be checked out? (Minus chamber, I at least understand where he's coming from although I'm far more interested in his contributions elsewhere).

[sangres]

nacho/ffery - early thoughts on venmar?

I think Nacho will have a little time for this game tomorrow. I was expecting to have more time as well, but we'll see how it goes I guess.

I have never played with scum-Venmar, and it's been a while since I did a meta scan. So, I have a town-Venmar model that's probably a little sketchy and no scum-Venmar model at all. Nacho and I recently helped get him mislynched in a PoE situation where we both really thought he'd looked pretty town earlier in the game. To me, in this game so far, Venmar is coming off pretty similar to Xenosaga in tone, level of involvement, etc.

But, to a large extent I depended on Nacho's meta read in that game, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if Nacho sees an issue or two that I don't.

However, it will surprise me quite a bit if Nacho changes his mind about Katsuki given what he's posted this week.

Does Empire have an opinion on Venmar?

TOWN NACHO WOULD TOTALLY BE TOWNREADING ME
NOT TEEHEEING A KATS LYNCH

LOOK AT YOUR OWN PLAY
IN NATIS MINI 1543
I FUCKING CALLED YOUR SHIT OUT WHEN YOU COULDNT RESIST MY BAIT

The teeheeing began originally because I didn't buy your vote on me coming from town-Kats. Yeah, I was shit talking and being obnoxious, but was decently town while doing it and would expect you to recognize + appreciate that. Now, I wonder why you would troll around with me instead of immediately call me out on my shit like you've done in most games together, and I wonder why you'd hold onto this reasoning and only deposit it now. Did you not want our exchange to get serious until the town was already led off on a good number of dumb wagons?

[sangres]

I don't want you to meta dive so I can read you, I want you to meta dive so I can read others.

I am really curious why you didn't comment on my analysis after you basically asked for it.

I would have commented more if I disagreed with more.

[sangres]

hey can i just give a general reminder 2 everyone who is reading lld as SOLFID FUcking town that lld is Absolutely Excellent @ Scum ty 4 keeping this in mind.

Do you think she's scum? Or are you just kicking up paranoia to kick up paranoia?

[sangres]

Katsuki doesn't do that as scum but is much more involved with the game and actually has some semblance of "pro-town" play.

something

about his play struck nacho quite strongly as scum-katsuki. I don't really want to downgrade that without knowing more of the basis for it. I may move our vote tomorrow if I don't hear from him, but won't be calling katsuki town on my own.

So Nacho's spent the last 25 pages dancing around this read and you've been doing nothing but being the song to Nacho's dance.

I maen fuck I've given Nacho all the chances in the world to try and salvage his reputation but its like he's insistent on claiming scum and getting the slot nuked.

This is actually just wrong.
I haven't posted in a very long time (haven't posted since you said my name last, in fact), which is something I'm pretty sure you're aware of. You haven't given me anything except for one (1) chance to unvote you/recognize you're town, and that warn off came in the form of a late and weak "town Nacho would see town Katsuki", which doesn't cut it for me.

[sangres]

Spoiler: HAPPY TOWNREADS THAT NEED NO MORE EXPLAINING:

LLD:

LLD is a surprisingly strong townread for me at this point (which fuels slight paranoia in and of itself, but not significant paranoia). Tonally, I think LLD looks town: she isn't a particularly aggressive sorter early game, but she occasionally gives off those vibes as scum. She also has more playerlist awareness as scum, so her not knowing who was in sangres is a good sign, and I don't think that on a whole was faked. Even more importantly, I think that her outing of her ability is incredibly town after realizing what Zdenek brought up recently. If LLD kept that ability under wraps, she would be able to win as scum for setting up a LyLo where she leads to a No Lynch. She would be able to get a double kill every time she was able to drown the town in apathy, and she would be able to get a double town if she suggested moving from evens to odds. I don't think any limits the mods could place on that particular ability could make it weak enough to justify the early out for LLD-scum, and I think the limits that seem to be placed on it so far (doesn't know who each player is, picks post and not player) make sense for limits on a town role but don't nerf the power enough to be given to scum.

Cerulean:

Tammy seems pretty obviously town. Early game excitement and strong openings are something Tammy still feels uncomfortable pulling off as scum (or even attempting, really, and occasionally dumbs down her town game so that she can't be read in one post), so I'd probably light a puppy on fire if I thought she was scum. I probably won't ever mention this read again because it's sort of useless and only feeds her already uncontrollable ego, so please don't ask me about it and please don't call the slot scum.

Zdenek:

Zdenek opening seems good to me! I think early role out is slightly townish, but the main reason I have a townread on him is because of how he engages LLD's ability (to be fair, I don't know how he would approach it as scum except by not caring that much, but how it evolved seemed pretty genuine to me).

Flipping Awesome:

I don't have a read on F-16 yet. I like that he seems excited for rolling town, but I think it's obvious he would be excited for rolling town in this player list and his excitement isn't particularly fakeable. Him taking strong ownership of reading me and specifically me is nice, but I didn't think that was fakeable (although closer to fakeable). I am currently taking a pretty strong and pretty early approach to saving the game as soon as possible (and am being pretty transparent about it!), so I'm hoping that he engages this wall with a pretty great response so I can slate him in as obvious town as opposed to kinda town but not quite there yet.

FOLLOWUP:

Sixty:

I'm a bit reassured by latest posting, although pushes by Vi could probably be better pushes. I think that Tierce undercutting Vi posting for pretty much no reason is a hydra interaction unlikely to be coming from scumVi filtering scumTierce and more likely to come from an invested Vi and uninvested Tierce (although Tierce's lack of investment still hurts), I feel Tierce's interactions with Cerulean (particularly Tierce maintaining that this is something shed never do as scum after Tammy began to break) were unlikely to come from them if they were a scum slot, and townreads minus CDB are good enough to cover for bad JUSTICE scumreads.

Nero Cain:

Light townread has become a heavy townread as of late based mostly on Venmar push which reached a level of passion past scumNero pushing. I also agree with ffery that pushing us has gone beyond the easy drop of "sangres is obnoxious" because Nero knows we're not an easy target even while being pushed for really horrible reasons: recent attack on Sixty for defending on scum also seems like a sleeping bear scum-Nero wouldn't be overly eager on waking up.

Tim Howard:
CDB red here helps a bit (scum-CDB would feel weird calling lazy scum partners strong town but would have to call them town in a scum-town interaction while townCDB presumably has an accurate read), but mostly what solidifies this read is how willing Nexus is willing to do whatever the fuck he feels like and does it loudly, as opposed to quiet scumNexus in that hydra with Faraday. I haven't read quadz's posting (and don't remember it, thus don't really care about it), but Nexus is town enough for the two of them based on tone and brazenness alone: nitpicking the effectiveness of his approaches is a bad way to read the slot and the people who know they're doing it should stop doing that shit.

Untrodden Tripod:

Of his original pushes, his Cerulean push didn't necessarily excite me all that much, but was pushed in an aggressive enough way that I didn't think UT would be comfortable pushing so early in the game as scum. The big thing that sells me on UT is actually how fluid and natural his pushes feel: scumUT, from my experience, has votes that don't tend to move as often and the quick vote on Tim seemed more fitting of townUT. I also think the defense of Kats in particular is pretty genuine: it's essentially founded on him being burned before because he lynched Katsuki the antitown, which seems like a pretty "real" reason to defend him that doesn't seem like its posturing for cred on a flip and sure as hell doesn't feel like a buddy defense.

[sangres]

I have 4.

[sangres]

You could work together with me if you didn't bully me so much and let me have my fun when I wanted to have my fun.
But you're a mean stick in the mud, so F-16/penguin will be our sounding board and we will be theirs and no one will invite you to the club.

(penguin, please post your thoughts more! Stop filtering yourself, it's boring.)

[sangres]

The push didn't last for a long time.

[sangres]

NEW TOWNREAD ADDITIONS BECAUSE I KNOW THEIR ADDITION BEFORE TALKING ABOUT SCUMREADS WILL BOTHER SIXTY:

Shadoweh:

I think that Shadoweh is generally more boring as scum than I am: I think the comparison of Shadoweh fake raging to the last time she fake raged is not really that accurate, considering VisCon exists and this rage isn't VisCon rage. As far as consistent content goes, Shadoweh has provided more content per post than her last scumgame and her last town game combined, has actual logical posts (instead of scum-Shadoweh "whee, look at me tunnel this townie!"), and has decently genuine rage that seems to seep into her posting as opposed to over the top and acting as an excuse to make shitty lynches. I did smell a couple of "if I was scum I wouldn't do this!" arguments that sort of make me twitch, but nothing significant. I don't find the slip to be a slip: forgetting your role PM color is plausible (and is necessary to call Shadoweh-scum?), and ugh that argument is overall sort of boring to me so won't dive into it too much.


chamber:
Arrogant, pushing on chamber things, involved, is probably town. This read will probably be sorted out pretty quickly, will expand on it if it needs explanation.

Venmar:

The process which Venmar reads me seemed like a genuine sorting process (people are weirded out when I act weird, imagine that!). I am not surprised he did nothing with the read on me after coming around to the read on me: he's very proud of his accuracy in reading me where others seem to fail horribly from time to time, but he doesn't have a tendency to work closely with me in games. His push on Nero/his end looks as righteous as it does from the other end, and Venmar is obnoxious in a way that I'm fairly confident would be dialed back to a considerable degree if he knew he was peddling sheer bullshit.

[sangres]

SCUM:

Katsuki - Should be implicit by latest posts directed at him. Not ready to make a clearer case as of yet.

Kanyeknowsbest - Kanye's contributions this game haven't been horrible, but they're underwhelming as hell and nothing at all like I was hoping (was planning on sheeping the hell out of him if I got a townread on him). I think the best thing he's posted so far is his townread on Reck. The worst thing he's posted so far is "LLD is good at scum!".

Don't really feel like sharing anything else.

[sangres]

The push didn't last for a long time.

138 posts that happen to be the height of the wagon and some ways into its decline isn't a "long time"?

Not within the context of a game day, no.
I call it a short push because, if UT was scum, it didn't really seem like an intent to mislynch unless his attention span is pretty much nothing. UT gave one post explaining why he made the vote he did, talks about some other stuff, and then... talked about how people should vote Venmar.

[sangres]

1) Both.

2) Scumread on him is only slightly weaker than scumread on Katsuki, so pretty confident.

[sangres]

Where to?

I think we're good where we're at.

[sangres]

Agree re the Tim lynch.

[sangres]

Agree re the Tim lynch.

Then make it happen? You are voting on a wagon of one and not making an effort to push it.

Bitch at us all you like, but ffery-head is not going to be a day 1 fearless leader in this player list, and nacho-head's availability is limited.

Empire, you remember thinking that my Plum town-case in pennipedum looked too simplistic to be town?

If I had been town and had to explain why I thought Plum was town in that game, the case would have been very similar but I would have gone on a bit more about why the Plum in the On A Boat game was different.

I'm not seeing quite the same level of <I'm looking for a word here but I don't think there's a single word that hits the mark - ambiguity, many words that say not much, off-to-the-side> play, but IMO she's much closer to that than to the open, engaged, in the moment play I saw in Pennipedum.

I can move our vote there. But, I'd much rather be on a wagon that you and F-16 both think are scum if I'm not going to stick with nacho's strongest scum read.

[sangres]

ffery posting.

[sangres]

Agree re the Tim lynch.

Then make it happen? You are voting on a wagon of one and not making an effort to push it.

Bitch at us all you like, but ffery-head is not going to be a day 1 fearless leader in this player list, and nacho-head's availability is limited.

Okay, first. I was not "bitching" at you, so please cut the attitude because this game has had plenty of that at this point, including by us. Don't create conflict for conflict's sake.

You're voting Katsuki. You're the only slot voting Katsuki. It's three days to deadline, ten to lynch, and you're voting Katsuki... and you say you don't want Tim Howard lynched. Then

make it happen

. Nobody's asking you to be a fearless leader, and frankly I don't care about Nacho's availability. But if you make statements like that, either back them up with actions that help it, or accept the consequences of not doing anything to reach it. And voting Katsuki with no real push, at this stage? That's "doing nothing".


Cut by my other half and there are fireworks going out. Let's make things happen because apparently sangres isn't the hero Gotham needs.

As you point out, there isn't really time for this sort of back and forth, but I'm going to point out anyway that this post comes off to me as "Bitch? I didn't bitch at you. bitchbitch some decent content bitch."

I want to do some quick pulse checking before I decide if/where to move our vote.

[sangres]

No.

[sangres]

No.

So we're both on vanity wagons atm. I'm thinking about how to fix that. What are you doing?

[sangres]

VOTE: Reck

[sangres]

insults don't really bother me as much as people being wrong.

Reck is doing both as evidenced above. You should be sufficiently bothered by this to vote him.

Whats bothering me is that he's sheeping me. I never got the impression that he had a very positive opinion of my ability.

I'm not really following your progression from this post, and have no idea what you think of the sudden reck wagon.

[sangres]

fery how much are you and nacho discussing and or agreeing on reads?

ha! even as I was answering this with "not at all since our first set of reads lists" I was getting text messages from him <3

I like that you're engaging me about our reads.

He feels pretty strongly about his katsuki read and I'm feeling a little bad about moving our vote rather than trying to push that wagon by proxy.

He feels like Katsuki's push on him in this game feels a lot like his push on kuribo in Anything Goes. And that his reaction to Nacho's push doesn't feel at all as organic as his town reactions usually are.

Basically I think he's calling Empire's meta-town read on Katsuki too shallow.

[sangres]

I haven't checked, because I trust his memory. He said your early rush on kuribo is similar to what you've done here.

[sangres]

RECK YOURE SO MUCH HARDER TO READ THAN YOU USED TO BE

T^T

You really shouldn't have posted this right after linking me to the anything goes iso.

[sangres]

WHEN NACHO'S JUST SPOUTING WHATEVER BS HE WANTS?!

I MEAN FUCK I GUESS I SHOULD START MAKING UP AND REFERENCING RANDOM SHIT TOO SINCE IT APPARENTLY WORKS

I scanned your link, and I agree in that game you were sucking up to kuribo. I've texted Nacho to see if he meant a different game.

However! Like I said, right after you linked me to an ISO full of scum-you buddying a strong, ragey player wasn't a great time to suck up to Reck.

[sangres]

I can move our vote there. But, I'd much rather be on a wagon that you and F-16 both think are scum if I'm not going to stick with nacho's strongest scum read.

This feels odd coming from you considering we often butt heads in games or at least spend a very massive amount of time hashing out disagreements on reads.
~ F-16

If you tried to push me toward one of our townreads you wouldn't get anywhere. I'm looking for outside validation of our scumreads.

comes down to experiential meta, which I lack on a ton of players this game. I have a strong trust of Empire's meta analysis and I feel like I'd spot him if he's scum-metaing because it was really obviously not town-empire's reads in the On A Boat game. I feel a little less likely to spot scum-you via your meta cases, but I feel like there's some decent check and balance built into it if you both wind up agreeing on one of our scumreads. And, I know Nacho if anything has a stronger town read on you than I do at this point.

[sangres]

UNVOTE

VOTE: Katsuki

Sorry Sixty. Of nacho's not-town reads, Reck is more town-direction. we'd maybe compromise on Plum or CDB but Katsuki is who we want to see lynched.

[sangres]

"Passive" might be a decent word there? The thing is she looks like scum particularly because she does remind me of that game in the ways I mentioned but my biggest concern right now is that it might be activity related (since she's been V/LA for a large part of this Day phase). I could vote her but I wouldn't feel confident in it at all.

It might be a good word but it's not what I thought about her play in On A Boat. "Impenetrable" maybe. At the time, I thought she was playing so differently (and maybe better) than I was, because most of the players both at the start and as the replacements came in were people I had no experience with (but in several cases had experience playing with each other), and it was hard for me to say if reads I disagreed with were bad reads or if my reads were bad.

Then in Pinnipedum she wasn't impenetrable at all and I don't think that as town I would have had the same sort of trouble reading her.

Her play in this game is somewhere between those two points.

ha! even as I was answering this with "not at all since our first set of reads lists" I was getting text messages from him <3

I like that you're engaging me about our reads.

He feels pretty strongly about his katsuki read and I'm feeling a little bad about moving our vote rather than trying to push that wagon by proxy.

He feels like Katsuki's push on him in this game feels a lot like his push on kuribo in Anything Goes. And that his reaction to Nacho's push doesn't feel at all as organic as his town reactions usually are.

Basically I think he's calling Empire's meta-town read on Katsuki too shallow.

Uh, I just looked over what Nacho had posted about him in #295 and he says there that Katsuki as town tends to talk about how Nacho should be able to read him. Is that not what he's doing here (#626)? What more were you guys expecting from his reaction (I don't think Katsuki really one much for detail when he's town)?

I think I'm at my limit of channeling Nacho and trying to fill in the blanks. Hopefully tomorrow either he and I can talk by text more so I understand his concerns better or he can make an appearance.

[sangres]

Reck nacho thinks you are town and loves you. He requests your presence on the Katsuki wagon.

[sangres]

@FA/F-16

Nacho's response to your meta on Katsuki:

He agrees that katsuki adjusts his play style to the player list, and he thinks that in a player list like this where so many players are meta based katsuki won't play his stereotypical protown-looking scum game because we'd see it for what it is.

Also consider his activity level here versus his activity in Dark Ages of the Law and Natirasha on Parole, two very recent town games.

Nacho would also like you to respond to the flaws he pointed out in Empire's case. His activity here is definitely higher.

[sangres]

Why would you change it?

because we were getting no traction and consolidation needed to happen. I was ready to compromise, but Nacho still feels really strongly that Katsuki is scum this time out.

Consolidation is still needed. I realize you've kinda scumread us and think maybe we're bussing Katsuki. Even if you think that, the Katsuki wagon makes a lot of sense. We're not getting lynched today. If we are bussing then why not help us?

[sangres]

He agrees that katsuki adjusts his play style to the player list

Katsuki has a playstyle?

You do indeed. The metaing is all done with the greatest love and respect for your scum game.

[sangres]

Agree re the Tim lynch.

Then make it happen? You are voting on a wagon of one and not making an effort to push it.

Bitch at us all you like, but ffery-head is not going to be a day 1 fearless leader in this player list, and nacho-head's availability is limited.

Okay, first. I was not "bitching" at you, so please cut the attitude because this game has had plenty of that at this point, including by us. Don't create conflict for conflict's sake.

You're voting Katsuki. You're the only slot voting Katsuki. It's three days to deadline, ten to lynch, and you're voting Katsuki... and you say you don't want Tim Howard lynched. Then

make it happen

. Nobody's asking you to be a fearless leader, and frankly I don't care about Nacho's availability. But if you make statements like that, either back them up with actions that help it, or accept the consequences of not doing anything to reach it. And voting Katsuki with no real push, at this stage? That's "doing nothing".


Cut by my other half and there are fireworks going out. Let's make things happen because apparently sangres isn't the hero Gotham needs.

As you point out, there isn't really time for this sort of back and forth, but I'm going to point out anyway that this post comes off to me as "Bitch? I didn't bitch at you. bitchbitch some decent content bitch."

I want to do some quick pulse checking before I decide if/where to move our vote.

A+ post, I fell in love.

[sangres]

I don't like tim howard for scum at all. My only experience playing with nexus that I remember was when I hydra'd with him as an SK. He made one post that game because it was deadline and he knew I was afk. I made literally every other post, because he didn't want to as scum. I didn't see that reservation in him here.

Is there a reason you're as opposed to Katsuki as you are?

[sangres]

Nacho: What's your read on me?


-Nobody Special

You're on the town side of null, but still very much null.
I would be pretty happy to upgrade it to town if you sheep me on Katsuki!

[sangres]

Katsuki doesn't do that as scum but is much more involved with the game and actually has some semblance of "pro-town" play.

something

about his play struck nacho quite strongly as scum-katsuki. I don't really want to downgrade that without knowing more of the basis for it. I may move our vote tomorrow if I don't hear from him, but won't be calling katsuki town on my own.

So Nacho's spent the last 25 pages dancing around this read and you've been doing nothing but being the song to Nacho's dance.

I maen fuck I've given Nacho all the chances in the world to try and salvage his reputation but its like he's insistent on claiming scum and getting the slot nuked.

This is actually just wrong.
I haven't posted in a very long time (haven't posted since you said my name last, in fact), which is something I'm pretty sure you're aware of. You haven't given me anything except for one (1) chance to unvote you/recognize you're town, and that warn off came in the form of a late and weak "town Nacho would see town Katsuki", which doesn't cut it for me.

THEN SIGN YOUR BLOODY POSTS

You can't tell the difference between me and ffery posting and that's your excuse?
I think it's fairly obvious when I'm posting considering every time I post our post count ups by 25. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, though.

[sangres]

In Tim Howard versus Katsuki:
-Aggressively bad reads are not a scum tell in any form.
-Nexus & quads have not good scumgames that both look nothing like what ended up in thread so far.
-No one actually has a townread on Katsuki (except for Kanye??), and this isn't Katsuki's obvious town game?

[sangres]

nacho/ffery - early thoughts on venmar?

I think Nacho will have a little time for this game tomorrow. I was expecting to have more time as well, but we'll see how it goes I guess.

I have never played with scum-Venmar, and it's been a while since I did a meta scan. So, I have a town-Venmar model that's probably a little sketchy and no scum-Venmar model at all. Nacho and I recently helped get him mislynched in a PoE situation where we both really thought he'd looked pretty town earlier in the game. To me, in this game so far, Venmar is coming off pretty similar to Xenosaga in tone, level of involvement, etc.

But, to a large extent I depended on Nacho's meta read in that game, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if Nacho sees an issue or two that I don't.

However, it will surprise me quite a bit if Nacho changes his mind about Katsuki given what he's posted this week.

Does Empire have an opinion on Venmar?

TOWN NACHO WOULD TOTALLY BE TOWNREADING ME
NOT TEEHEEING A KATS LYNCH

LOOK AT YOUR OWN PLAY
IN NATIS MINI 1543
I FUCKING CALLED YOUR SHIT OUT WHEN YOU COULDNT RESIST MY BAIT

The teeheeing began originally because I didn't buy your vote on me coming from town-Kats. Yeah, I was shit talking and being obnoxious, but was decently town while doing it and would expect you to recognize + appreciate that. Now, I wonder why you would troll around with me instead of immediately call me out on my shit like you've done in most games together, and I wonder why you'd hold onto this reasoning and only deposit it now. Did you not want our exchange to get serious until the town was already led off on a good number of dumb wagons?

TROLL AROUND YOU?
EVERYTHING'S BEEN STRAIGHT FORWARD

You didn't answer the question. I know you can answer questions, Katsuki.

[sangres]

hey can i just give a general reminder 2 everyone who is reading lld as SOLFID FUcking town that lld is Absolutely Excellent @ Scum ty 4 keeping this in mind.

Do you think she's scum? Or are you just kicking up paranoia to kick up paranoia?

i do not have a confident read on her, but i know how as scum she can rev up from being a early common town read and honestly im going to treat everything she posts w. a grain of salt until shes mod confirmed. if you think that makes me scum then fuckin alright nacho lmao

So... Do you have an opinion on the reasoning that's currently calling her town?
Or all you have to say is "I think LLD has a good scumgame"?

[sangres]

thtat said im pretty sure youre wrong about katsuki and also not convinced abt your shadowy read well ttyl

I think your Tim Horton read is also p horrible

[sangres]

re: zedio my original scum read was based on his really odd play around my 60 vote and his declaration that he was going to be doing something different. i reexamined him after his tim vote (which i really liked, the way he went abt it and everything) and his following play around that. but the real clincher for me is i put myself in his shoes, and were right on the tail of fire and ice where he became really obvscum day1 by getting stuck in the trap that is arguing w. me abt stupid shit. i take that into consideration and as scum in this game i think that he simply avoids me early since he knows it wont get him anywhere, which is pretty conflicting w. his move to jump hard on my 60 vote.

You think that if he decided to pull the Sixty shenanigans as scum, then he would drop it the moment you voted 60 because of fire and ice?

[sangres]

Agree re the Tim lynch.

Then make it happen? You are voting on a wagon of one and not making an effort to push it.

I do not believe Shadoweh is scum; her irritation at the blue issue seems genuine, and she was the very first one to mention the "Heart Attack on First Read Red" Town color. Furthermore, scum have safeclaims and there's a sample role PM. Shadoweh is not stupid, and blue is a plausible color for an Innocent Child. Plus, she mentioned Thor + smurf. The whole deal is just ridiculousness upon ridiculousness.

One of this hydra's heads does not really think Messieurs Hortons are scum--from memory, Nexus tends to be lurky and apathetic as scum, so his reaction to us reads as Town who is offended his posts are not being seen as useful.
Regardless, it's a lesser of two evils, and frankly if sangres aren't going to be taking the reins and making something happen we have no good reason to be pushing more righteous wagons.

So... You're not voting Katsuki and instead are apathetically letting town get lynched because we aren't being aggressive enough? I assume I'm misreading something somewhere, because if not

[sangres]

This may not stick (remember, I still have ~8 pages to catch up on):

Vote: Katsuki

You're town!

[sangres]

nacho I had a question for you that you didn't answer D:

Ask it again, I missed it/haven't gotten to it

[sangres]

He's saying that I'll intentionally play a bad scumgame that's not conducive to advancing my wincon because apparently that's how you win as scum!

BZZZZZT
You're becoming more and more like typical scum Katsuki as the day goes on and I love it.

[sangres]

I misremembered, sorry.
Guess I'm confirmed scum amirite

[sangres]

VOTE: Tim Howard

NO RECK GOD DAMN IT

[sangres]

Ecstasy to immediate disappointment.

[sangres]

Why won't you let me lynch Katsuki?

[sangres]

Katsuki probably town.

NACHO THAT BETTER NOT BE A BACKDOOR INTO A POTENTIAL LOLKATSSCUM YOU KNOW THAT SHIT WON'T FLY

And nacho doesn't have me read as town?

Maybe he is scum.

(after i post a bunch of town reads and he isn't included)

And nacho doesn't have me read as town?

Maybe he is scum.

there is a limit on how much research i can do to find out from the past and this game that you read people who don't read you as town as scum

y/n

Nacho is different, he should be able to read me easily. Despite my town game being painfully obvious, I don't expect everyone to be able to pick up on it.

There are certain players for which this is a 100% scumtell, such as ooba calling me scum in N's recent game. I apply it very selectively, as I know for which players this scumtell is true for.

How Katuski responded to pressure by me on him in Natirasha on Parole.

[sangres]

Dark Age of the Law:

I wouldn't be happy with a doduo lynch.
I would be happier with a Katsuki lynch, but probably much happier with a KA lynch.

Huehuehue I almost switched off of you nacho.

Go die.

Ok so apparently both the ICs suck this game gg

I would've pushed you long ago when your wagon was gaining traction as scum, ffery.

w/e

UNVOTE, VOTE: KATSUKI

You guys are never gonna lynch antihero
If nacho's scum you guys are just gonna let him get away anyways
BC has conveniently disappeared
And tar needs no explaining.

Everyone else can be town until these 4 die.

(he mostly had me as a townread before this point)

[sangres]

Wagon compositions today are generally pretty unsexy: wagon on Tim Howard has one strong townread, two scumreads, a null-scum read, and a decent townread.

My glory wagon has two strong town, a null town, and a null scum.

Katsuki, why are you voting Tim Howard instead of me? You never really showed any particular interest in Tim Howard before.

[sangres]

Katsuki-town means that Kanye is probably scum.
Not really sure how I feel about them being scum together though, to be honest.

Plum-scum seems a decent bet regardless of Katsuki alignment. Venmar/Reck wagons seem mostly town if not all town.
CDB/Katsuki would be an odd combo, but not necessarily impossible.

[sangres]

Vote: Katsuki

LOLOL
NACHO IS THIS LAL YOU GOT?

I didn't really like this response to my vote on him. Katsuki has a pretty strong history of generally leaving me alone until I start suspecting him, and whenever I suspect/vote him, it usually comes with a strong "nacho is scum" declaration. In this scenario, even if he had a budding scumread on me based on earlier posts, I would expect them to be significantly strengthened when I voted him, which wasn't at all the case.

[sangres]

Sixty, Venmar, maybe shadow? There are more somewhere.

I've been watching for signs of the Vi I met in day 1 of the Dr Who game, where he did a lot of leading and marshalling wagons but never seemed to take a real stand on which wagon he actually supported - like he didn't care who got lynched.

This game feels different. More like he's not leading much at all rather than leading willy-nilly here and there.

Nacho has had them as town.

[sangres]

Katsuki-town means that Kanye is probably scum.

NICE TO SEE YOU ALREADY KNOW WHAT YOUR SCUMREAD IS FLIPPING

This is a pretty wonderful misrep.
I was playing with the possibilities of you-town and what that means for the game state: there are a number of reasons why other scum suspects don't work great with you and I was seeing if the game makes more sense without you as scum.

It doesn't.

[sangres]

I'll be around til a few hours before deadline but not right on that hour. For now, my vote'll go here.

Vote: Plum

Nacho, did you get around to answering the question I asked you a while back about what you expected from Katsuki's reaction as town?

A little. I'll post a full answer below just for you and just because I care about your vote on this wagon that much.

For one, every time that I've publicly shown suspicion of town!Katsuki in thread, it's served as a bit of a straw that broke the camel's back or a time to reanalyzing my slot. In this case, nothing happened: Katsuki pushed ahead with the status quo. If his initial vote wasn't serious, I'd expect him as town to respond with something like "oh hey you actually ARE scum", and if his initial vote was serious, I'd expect him to respond with something along the lines of his read being confirmed.

Another thing I think is pretty fucking telling is how he's responding to being lynched: he hedged a little suspicion on Tim Howard slot earlier because it was looking like the likeliest wagon to go through, and is now voting there to save himself. I think Katsuki as town would be a bit less focused on surviving and a bit more focused on screwing me over with his town flip.

The third is that I think he wouldnt try to pad his cases in our exchanges: Katsuki reasoning for me being scum would pretty much consist of me pushing him and nothing else. Things like his attack on me for the incorrect Anything Gies reference, his misrep (or borderline misrep) of my town!Katsuki line both seem like things he think he can sell but wouldn't really give a shit about as town because cases are scummy.

[sangres]

The majority of the game has a townread on Sangres and a scumread on you because you're prod-dodging. They're also having trouble with moving votes at all. You are not going to make last minute magic happen.

Dearest Kaney,

Kindly get #rekt and at least pretend to do something useful.

Forever yours,
Nacho

[sangres]

It actually made me really uncomfortable that sangres called me town because I don't feel I've been obvtown this game.

No one called you obvtown.
I find your scumgames are normally much more one-dimensional than your towngames, you've been playing like you're on whatever LLD is on, you're more likely town as a result.

Why haven't you been interacting with anything else that I've been posting?

[sangres]

Children, please.

Not only is this trash talking not bringing us closer to a scum lynch, it's horribly bad.
Almost as worthless as F16 making a Town case on an IC.
Lambda, skittles aren't blue, they're

purple

mauve.

Katsuki's response to suspicion as scum is to bury the thread in bullshit, deflect, post nonsense.
Katsuki's response to suspicion as town is to talk about how I should be able to read him because this obviously isn't his scum meta (and it obviously isn't his scum meta), etc.

CLEARLY YOU DONT KNOW MY META
WE DONT TALK TO SCUMREADS THATS NOT HOW IT WORKS

I WAS WILLING TO MOVE ON
BUT
YOU THOUGHT YOU COULD MISLYNCH ME
SO GUESS WE STUCK HERE EH

Katsuki doesn't do that as scum but is much more involved with the game and actually has some semblance of "pro-town" play.

something

about his play struck nacho quite strongly as scum-katsuki. I don't really want to downgrade that without knowing more of the basis for it. I may move our vote tomorrow if I don't hear from him, but won't be calling katsuki town on my own.

So Nacho's spent the last 25 pages dancing around this read and you've been doing nothing but being the song to Nacho's dance.

I maen fuck I've given Nacho all the chances in the world to try and salvage his reputation but its like he's insistent on claiming scum and getting the slot nuked.

This I didn't like not only because he made no effort to figure out when or where I was posting, and he never actually gave me those mysterious chances, but this is also pretty strange given his vote on Tim Howard. I can maybe buy some of the weird stuff Katsuki's done this game as weird town Katsuki, but I don't understand the motivation behind sitting on a scum suspect he's said all of one thing about while calling me claimed scum.

[sangres]

Shut up Katsuki, adults are talking.

FUCKING LOLS

P.S.
YOU WERE MUCH MORE COMPETENT 2 YRS AGO

Amen, Katsuki. Amen.

[sangres]

CHAMBER WHOS SCUM

w.e this game

UNVOTE, VOTE: VENMAR

This transition also fell pretty fucking flat.